{"id":153713,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153713","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5d8e9d6f3b1f90715d6a1f14e6772be7c8282b1d5b897dd1c123254f0538377ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:41:29 - 10:53:11","影片長度":"00:11:42","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:41:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:53:11+08:00","duration":702,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":31,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-31"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時41分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴及媒體記者女士先生。有請法務部鄭部長、國家通訊傳播委員會蔡處長以及行政院個人資料保護委員會籌備處陳科長。"],["主席：請部長、處長、科長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、處長好、科長好。今天我的標題是「網路版的通聯紀錄有助於阻詐跟打詐，但通保法的授權應配套救濟保障」，這也是很多委員關切的。首先我們來看一下，先瞭解一下部長對這個的相關認知，簡報上是中研院的學術研究，它是利用手機的訊號資料去分析雙北的人口移動，這裡面有定位所謂的手機夜間人口跟手機日間人口，這是以手機的所在位置去取得，但它去對比當時手機用戶申辦門號時候的個資去對應到其戶籍夜間人口，分析這些人住在哪區，到了早上這些人又移動到哪區。我先請教一下蔡處長，請問你認為手機門號業者的這些資料提供學術研究是可以允許的嗎？"],["蔡處長志儒：是，如果它已經去識別化，沒有辦法再連接到所謂個人資料的連結……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，陳科長，我請教一下，像這樣的一個研究，不管是基於學術研究或是商業統計，如果當時手機門號的公司跟申請人、用戶本身在契約訂定上有明定同意，那有沒有侵犯到個人隱私？沒有料到會請你上來備問，是不是？"],["陳科長瑾儀：是，如果說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：申辦門號的人跟手機門號公司有這個約定，同意可以做商業統計或是做學術研究，可以嗎？"],["陳科長瑾儀：基本上，如果是有經過用戶同意的話，當然是在這個範疇……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。我們看下一頁，為什麼要問這個呢？其實這個資料政府部門經常在使用，像剛剛顯現的調查就是早上8點50分、9點40分跟下午5點，臺北市交通尖峰時間40到49歲上班族的男性人流，它不是在追蹤個人的手機定位，而是顯示不同的時段、不同的區域，行動網路上抓到的門號數，它僅能顯示輪廓，不能回推個人。部長，你瞭解這樣一個經常性的應用嗎？部長，你對這樣的應用瞭解嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：時常是有這樣一個運用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我接下來就要問你了，其實手機訊號用於商業或學術與犯罪偵查的區別，我大概簡單的闡明一下，基於商業的或學術研究的目的，通常是根據個資法及契約的約定，原則上要當事人同意，你看到有這麼一群人，這時是分析群體的輪廓，大概知道是具什麼特性的人，在什麼時候大概會在什麼地方出現，但具體是誰，因為去識別化所以不知道。","但是犯罪偵查就不同了，我們犯罪偵查要識別犯罪者，在這些網路的通聯紀錄當中，我要找到什麼？根據刑訴跟通保法，內容上則是依照法律的規定，找出第一個，特定的嫌疑人，但是我要區隔出潛在的受害人，有時候犯罪者是跟受害人聯繫的；還有共犯以外的第三人，譬如說家人、商業往來上其他無相關的客戶，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這是我們在手機訊號上，就是現在說的網路的通訊流量或相關的通聯紀錄，在使用上的目的是不一樣的，對不對？正因為我們犯罪偵查必須明確的鎖定個人，所以我們在法律授權上有包括檢察官保留、法官保留跟後面一些必要的救濟、保障，是不是這樣的原因？請就麥克風回答。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們再往下看，目前詐騙前三名分別為簡訊、電話跟社群媒體，社群媒體越來越多人使用了，其實電商平臺、通訊軟體、電子郵件，都是屬於電信或網路詐欺，所以這是為什麼我們今天詐欺這麼猖狂，就是因為我們的數位科技、通訊非常的發達。所以我舉一個例子，以LINE群組來吸金詐騙，在這個個案中，有個民眾失業了，他上網時有人邀請他加入LINE的投資群組，成員當中的其他人在跟他話家常，讓他對成員的其他人卸下心防，接著慢慢的就講到了有關股票、虛擬貨幣的投資訊息，甚至要花錢加入專案，但是你給他錢之後，他就叫你要先「退群」，然後跟著顧問學習操作，等到他投了40萬、退了群卻血本無歸，連被誰騙了都不知道，部長瞭解類似這樣的個案經常發生的情況嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以警方或檢調怎麼調查呢？首先，嫌犯既然涉及電信詐騙，他一定有受害人，受害人去報案，警察受理之後去調查，他要先去向電信業者調取使用者的資料，這時候檢警就需要電信業者或社群平臺的配合，以確定嫌犯的真實身分，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是為什麼你們的條文當中規定要取得用戶的個人資料，這些個人資料是在辦理這些電信設備使用的時候必須要填的，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這是第一步。"],["鍾委員佳濱：業者要提供，才能知道是誰。但是接下來查到身分之後，我們要怎麼樣去查他有沒有共犯，或者他在對哪些被害人下手？這個時候就不是特定對象了，而是根據他網路通聯的流量、時間、頻率，然後來判斷他聯絡的對象是他的家人、共犯、車手還是被害人，所以，我要再確認一次，調取網路的流量紀錄，是不是只能看到聯絡的紀錄，看不到內容？"],["鄭部長銘謙：看不到內容。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，你們就必須根據外觀來判斷，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是從這些去做判斷……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這也是為什麼你們要取得這個流量紀錄的原因。其實目前在通保法還沒有修改之前，平臺業者是怎麼回應警方、檢調要求提供這些個資的？譬如說我們搜索Dcard/FB，此時他們僅供17個重案個資；LINE的部分，也要搜索票。我們再看一下，像FB、IG，重案就提供；LINE，需要搜索票；Dcard，需要搜索票。實務上是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：您也知道，還是要問副署長才知道？你確定是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：LINE這部分一定要有搜索票。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前這些大的平臺它的態度是不一樣的，為什麼？因為沒有法律的授權，他們可以拒絕，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們往下看，通保法第十一條之一第一項，這裡面有三個重點，第一個，關於「三年以上」，我們這次把最重本刑三年以上拿掉了；檢察官保留的部分，將來擴充到也提供給司法警察官；最後，書面聲請法院核發調取票，現在這個也拿掉了，沒有法官保留了。使用者從檢察官可以發動，到司法警察官也都可以發動，還有本刑規定的部分，剛剛幾位委員都問過了，請問一下，你認為做這些修正的目的是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：第一，德國跟美國的立法例本來就沒有這種的規定，而且這個完全沒有涉及到內容……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們今天的報告當中有說到德國的刑法，有這樣的一個立法例，就是這個東西司法警察官就可以開始發動的，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們是參照德國的例子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：德國、美國。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，舉個例子，我常常去捐血，捐血到最後會要我填一個單子，上面說：你同不同意這些個資可以做學術研究？我同意；你同不同意把你的捐血的情況拿來做宣導？我說，可以，這是鼓勵大家捐血；你同不同意我們用你的捐血紀錄來給你做表揚？我說，那不用了，為什麼？因為捐血的時候，他要尊重我，但是今天衛福部如果基於疫病的調查要做疫調，因為它擔心我的血有被污染，強迫捐血中心取得我的個資、瞭解我捐的血的流向，你覺得可不可以？有沒有法律的依據？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是屬於個人資料保護法的問題，這個不是我們通保法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我瞭解您理解的問題、您的認知……","我這樣講好了，根據傳染病防治法就可以，因為根據傳染病防治法，基於公益的目的，可以為了瞭解我的血液分布的流向，可以跟捐血中心拿到我的資料。同樣的道理，剛剛講到我們個人跟手機門號業者的契約內容，我有的同意，有的不同意，但是基於犯罪的偵查，你們認為有法律的授權，當然可以拿到，是不是這樣？當然可以去取得，前提是有法律授權，但是在法律授權之外，有什麼要求呢？修正草案第三條之一第三項的網路流量紀錄，剛剛一直有談到，沈伯洋委員也問到了，這些內容上細微的差別，對個人隱私的影響是不一樣的，所以他剛剛很細緻地問到了一些問題，你們回去要趕快地把它區分清楚，同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會再……"],["鍾委員佳濱：再來，修正後原則是由檢警聲請，經法官同意，但是有些重罪就無需法官同意，為什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為急迫性，而且要快速處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但不管是取得他的流量紀錄，或者只是瞭解使用者的資料，那被調查人士會知道嗎？剛剛委員一直在問這個問題，莊委員也是，還有羅委員也是，所以你們對這個部分有沒有一個想法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：整個要區分，要層次性的一個處理，就像……"],["鍾委員佳濱：流量紀錄的影響比較大……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，一定要通知嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是條文當中有寫到嗎？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前是沒有，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們打算怎麼做？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會整體研議，我們在子法或是相關……"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實我昨天就提醒你們了，昨天在審科技偵查法的時候，我們有說，其實相較於科技偵查法，只是提供你們偵查犯罪的工具，但是到了這個部分、到了通保法的部分，雖然你們不涉及到對內容的監察，但是對於個資的使用，對於流量紀錄的取得，這對當事人的隱私跟人權是有一些影響。所以我要請你們趕快去思考，雖然目前的院版條文並沒有明定，但是後續執行的細則，你們要趕快去思考，程序上要予以規範，包括警務人員的教育訓練要予以增強，讓他有正確的觀念，我希望後面逐條的部分，是不是對於可能的附帶決議，你們要先行研議，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後的結論，我們同意強化偵查效能達成打詐的目標，但是我們也希望你們完善個資保護並考量告知及救濟機制，這是我們每個人可能會遇到的情況，我可能是在犯罪偵查當中被掃到的、可能的一個無辜的第三人，但我有權利知道我的個資曾經被這樣的……當然是準個資進入犯罪偵查的使用，我有權利知道，你同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們會再做釐清。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那趕快，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱召委，也謝謝部長的備詢。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：接下來請游顥委員、游顥，游顥委員不在。","請賴士葆委員、賴士葆，賴士葆委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","請吳召委宗憲、吳召委宗憲，吳召委宗憲不在。","請吳委員思瑤發言。","在這裡先做預告，待會吳委員發言之後再進行後續議程處理，可能會參照昨天的方式，先進行條文宣讀，然後再休息，宣讀時間大概要20分鐘，讓大家有充分的時間休息。好，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-31","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","沈伯洋","吳思瑤","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","吳宗憲"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135701_00008"}},"transcript":{"id":"153713","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153713","tool":"pyannote","id":"153713-pyannote"},"job_id":"QicOOmb6CZ1L21ts","queued_at":"2024-06-06 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\"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 678.401, \"end\": 678.421, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 679.517, \"end\": 679.657, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"）\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 679.657, \"end\": 679.777, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 679.777, \"end\": 679.837, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 679.837, \"end\": 679.878, \"score\": 0.494}, {\"word\": \"函\", \"start\": 679.878, \"end\": 679.898, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,291 --> 00:00:24,916\n主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關首長官員、會長工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生、優心法務部正部長還有國家通訊傳播委員會的蔡處長以及行政院個人資料保護委員會籌備處的陳科長請部長、處長、科長\n\n2\n00:00:33,050 --> 00:00:48,856\n委員好部長好、處長好、科長好今天我的標題網路版的通聯紀錄有助於主詐跟打詐但通訊版的授權應配套救濟保障這也是很多委員關切的首先我們來看一下先了解一下部長對這個相關的認知下一頁\n\n3\n00:00:51,017 --> 00:01:06,488\n這是一個中研院的學術研究他是利用手機的訊號資料去分析雙北的人口移動他這裡面有定位所謂的手機夜間人口跟手機日間人口這是以手機的所在位置去取得但他去對比當時手機用戶申辦門號的時候的個資\n\n4\n00:01:10,371 --> 00:01:28,266\n去對應到他的戶籍業縣人口分析這些人住在哪區到了早上這人移動到哪區我先請教一下我們的先請教蔡處長請問你認為這些手機門號業者的這些資料提供學術研究這是可以允許的嗎\n\n5\n00:01:30,211 --> 00:01:54,450\n是,如果說他已經去識別化,有辦法再連接到這個所謂的一個個人資料的一個人權的話。好,那陳課長我請教一下,像這樣的一個研究不管是基於學術研究或是基於商業統計,如果在當時手機門號的公司跟申請人用戶本身在契約訂定上有明定同意,那有沒有侵犯到個人隱私?\n\n6\n00:01:59,554 --> 00:02:07,480\n我申辦門號的人跟手機門號公司我有這個約定說這個可以從一做商業應用或者做學術研究可以嗎?\n\n7\n00:02:17,194 --> 00:02:24,358\n基本上如果是有經過用戶同意的話是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇\n\n8\n00:02:45,771 --> 00:03:06,822\n他能顯示輪廓不能回推個人部長你到底瞭解這樣的一個經常性的應用嗎部長你對這樣的應用瞭解嗎這個市場有這樣的一個應用好那我接下來就要問到你了往下看其實呢手機訊號用於商業或學術以及犯罪偵查的區別我大概簡單的闡明一下基於商業的目的或學術研究呢他通常呢\n\n9\n00:03:07,242 --> 00:03:31,245\n是根據各執法及契約的約定那原則要當事人同意那你看到這麼一群人他是分析群體的輪廓他大概知道說什麼特性的人在什麼時候大概會在什麼地方出現誰具體誰他去識別他不知道但是我們犯罪偵查就不同了我們犯罪偵查要識別犯罪者在這些通聯的網路的通聯記錄當中我要找到什麼\n\n10\n00:03:31,886 --> 00:03:59,533\n我要根據刑訴跟通訊保障的過去內容依照法律規定找出幾種第一個特定的嫌疑人但是我要區隔出什麼?潛在的受害人有時候犯罪者是跟受害人聯繫的以及共犯以外的第三人比如家人、商業網站上的其他無相關的客戶是不是這樣子?所以這是我們在手機訊號上就現在說的網路的這個通訊流量或相關的通聯記錄在使用上的目的是不一樣的對不對?\n\n11\n00:04:00,618 --> 00:04:22,232\n所以正因為我們犯罪偵查必須明確的鎖定個人所以我們就必須要法律上授權上有包括檢察官保留法官保留跟一個必要的後面的救濟保障是不是這樣的原因是嗎請就麥跟我回答好是好那這樣我們往下看其實目前詐騙的前三名檢訊電話跟社群媒體社群媒體越來越多人使用了\n\n12\n00:04:22,612 --> 00:04:47,649\n其實電商平台或通訊軟體的電子郵件都是屬於電信或網路詐欺所以這是為什麼我們今天詐欺這麼猖狂就是因為我們的數位科技通訊非常的發達往下看所以我們舉這個例子以賴群來吸金詐騙我們介紹個案有個民眾失業了他上網有人邀請他加入個賴的投資群組成員當中其他的人跟他畫家場卸下心防成員的其他人然後慢慢的就講到了什麼講到了有關股票、虛擬貨幣的投資訊息要花錢加入專案\n\n13\n00:04:52,912 --> 00:04:53,253\n）一）行政院函請審\n\n14\n00:05:11,710 --> 00:05:30,976\nbicyn犯他既然涉及電信詐騙他一定有受害人受害人就報案警察受理之後他去調查他去先電信業者調取使用者的資料這時候檢警就需要電信業者或社群平台配合他能確定嫌犯的真實身份是不是是這就是為什麼你們的條文當中為什麼要取得用戶的個人資料\n\n15\n00:05:31,616 --> 00:05:32,237\n二、繼續併案審查一）行政院函請審\n\n16\n00:05:53,050 --> 00:06:19,386\n時間頻率讓來判斷他聯絡的電話是他的家人還是共犯還是車手還是被害人所以我要再確認一次調取網路的流量記錄是不是是只能看到聯絡的記錄看不到內容看不到內容是啊你們就要必須根據外觀來判斷嗎是這樣嗎就是從這些裡面去做判斷所以這也是為什麼你們需要取得這個流量記錄的原因往下看其實我們目前呢在沒有通訊保障修改之前平台業者怎麼回應警方檢調他的\n\n17\n00:06:21,141 --> 00:06:40,322\n要求提供這些個資,譬如說我們搜索Dcard、FB有17個重案個資,LINE也要搜索票,我們看一下喔,FB、IG怎麼樣重案就提供,LINE的話要搜索票,Dcard要搜索票,是不是這樣子,實務上是不是這樣子?是。是你也知道還是要問副署長才知道,你確定是這樣嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:43,904 --> 00:07:02,612\n目前這些大的平台他的態度是不一樣的為什麼因為沒有法律的授權他們可以拒絕是不是這樣好那往下看所以目前我們看通訊法第11條之一我們在第一項當中我們就看到了其實這裡面有三個重點第一個三年以上我們這次最重本刑三年以上的拿掉了\n\n19\n00:07:03,171 --> 00:07:23,719\n那把檢察官保留呢擴充到也提供給司法警察官那最後呢書面何請法院調取票現在這個也拿掉了是不是這樣子沒有法官保留了嘛那使用者呢從檢察官發動到司法警察官都會發動那麼連本行的規定剛剛集會委員都問過了請問一下你認為做這些修正的目的是什麼\n\n20\n00:07:25,908 --> 00:07:46,709\n這個第一這個是本來就我們德國跟美國的立法力本來就沒有這一種的而且這個這個完全沒有涉及到內部在你們今天的報告說明當中有收到德國的刑法有這樣的一個立法力就是這個東西是只屬於司法警察官就可以開始發動的是不是這樣對所以你們是參照德國的例子德國美國\n\n21\n00:07:47,370 --> 00:08:08,958\n好那我來看一下往下看喔但是我們來看一下我舉個例子齁我舉例啦我常常去捐血捐血到最後他要填一個單子他說你同不同意你這些個資可以做學術研究我同意你同不同意把你的捐血的情況拿來做做宣導我說啊可以啦鼓勵大家捐血嘛那你同不同意我們用你的捐血紀錄來給你做表揚我說那不用了\n\n22\n00:08:10,077 --> 00:08:24,757\n為什麼捐血的時候他要尊重我但是如果說今天衛福部基於疫病的調查要做疫調他擔心我的血有汙染他強迫捐血中心取得我的個資瞭解我這捐血的流向你覺得有沒有可以可不可以有沒有法律的依據\n\n23\n00:08:26,803 --> 00:08:45,876\n這個是屬於個人資料保護法對不對?這個不是我們通報保障部長可能我了解您的理解的問題的認知好我這樣講齁這個根據傳染病防治法就可以啦根據傳染病防治法基於公益的目的他可以為了瞭解我的血液的分布的流向他可以跟捐血中心拿到我的資料\n\n24\n00:08:46,772 --> 00:08:59,046\n同樣的道理我們剛剛講我們個人跟手機業者的這些個人的契約內容我有的同意有的不同意但是基於我們犯罪的偵查你們認為有法律授權當然可以拿到嘛是不是這樣\n\n25\n00:09:00,100 --> 00:09:23,491\n當然可以去取得嘛前提是要法律授權嘛但是法律授權之外有什麼要求呢我們往下看喔修正草案的第三之一條的第三項這個網路的流量紀錄剛剛一直在談到了沈博洋委員也問到了這些內容細微的差別對個人隱私的影響是不一樣的所以他剛剛很細緻的問到了一些問題你們回去要趕快的把它區分清楚同意嗎\n\n26\n00:09:24,642 --> 00:09:51,504\n我們會再...好那再來呢本來的原則呢是由檢警申請經法官同意修正了但是呢有些重罪就無需法官保留為什麼因為急迫性而且是要快速處理快速處理好但是不管是取得他的流量紀錄或者甚至只是了解他的使用的資料那麼被調查人士會知道嗎剛剛一直在問這個問題啊莊委員也是啊還有誰還有羅委員也是啊所以我是覺得你們對這個部分\n\n27\n00:09:52,805 --> 00:10:09,198\n有沒有一個想法?那個整個要區分那個要層次性的一個處理嗎?對,流量記錄比較影響大。對對,他一定要通知嘛。但是條文當中有寫到嗎?有沒有?目前是沒有。目前沒有。所以,所以呢你們打算怎麼做?\n\n28\n00:10:13,476 --> 00:10:26,393\n所以我其實在昨天呢我就提醒你們了昨天我們在審我們的這個科技偵查法的時候我們有說其實相較於科技偵查法只是提供你們偵查犯罪的工具\n\n29\n00:10:26,913 --> 00:10:53,880\n但是到這個部分通訊保障的部分因為雖然你們不涉及到對內容的監察但是呢對於各自的使用對於流量的紀錄的取得這會對當事人的隱私跟人權有些影響所以我請你們要趕快去思考條文雖然目前的月滿條文並沒有明定但是後續的執行的細則你們要趕快的去思考程序上要予以規範包括警務人員的\n\n30\n00:10:55,240 --> 00:11:18,421\n教育訓練要予增強正確的觀念那我希望在待會後面逐條的部分是不是你們對於可能的附帶決議你們要先行研議可以嗎那最後的結論我們同意強化偵查效能來達到打造的目標但是我們也希望你們完善各自的保護並考量告知跟就近的機制這個是我們每個人遇到這種情況我可能是\n\n31\n00:11:19,517 --> 00:11:19,898\n二）行政院函請審\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8291\t24916\t主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關首長官員、會長工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生、優心法務部正部長還有國家通訊傳播委員會的蔡處長以及行政院個人資料保護委員會籌備處的陳科長請部長、處長、科長\n33050\t48856\t委員好部長好、處長好、科長好今天我的標題網路版的通聯紀錄有助於主詐跟打詐但通訊版的授權應配套救濟保障這也是很多委員關切的首先我們來看一下先了解一下部長對這個相關的認知下一頁\n51017\t66488\t這是一個中研院的學術研究他是利用手機的訊號資料去分析雙北的人口移動他這裡面有定位所謂的手機夜間人口跟手機日間人口這是以手機的所在位置去取得但他去對比當時手機用戶申辦門號的時候的個資\n70371\t88266\t去對應到他的戶籍業縣人口分析這些人住在哪區到了早上這人移動到哪區我先請教一下我們的先請教蔡處長請問你認為這些手機門號業者的這些資料提供學術研究這是可以允許的嗎\n90211\t114450\t是,如果說他已經去識別化,有辦法再連接到這個所謂的一個個人資料的一個人權的話。好,那陳課長我請教一下,像這樣的一個研究不管是基於學術研究或是基於商業統計,如果在當時手機門號的公司跟申請人用戶本身在契約訂定上有明定同意,那有沒有侵犯到個人隱私?\n119554\t127480\t我申辦門號的人跟手機門號公司我有這個約定說這個可以從一做商業應用或者做學術研究可以嗎?\n137194\t144358\t基本上如果是有經過用戶同意的話是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇\n165771\t186822\t他能顯示輪廓不能回推個人部長你到底瞭解這樣的一個經常性的應用嗎部長你對這樣的應用瞭解嗎這個市場有這樣的一個應用好那我接下來就要問到你了往下看其實呢手機訊號用於商業或學術以及犯罪偵查的區別我大概簡單的闡明一下基於商業的目的或學術研究呢他通常呢\n187242\t211245\t是根據各執法及契約的約定那原則要當事人同意那你看到這麼一群人他是分析群體的輪廓他大概知道說什麼特性的人在什麼時候大概會在什麼地方出現誰具體誰他去識別他不知道但是我們犯罪偵查就不同了我們犯罪偵查要識別犯罪者在這些通聯的網路的通聯記錄當中我要找到什麼\n211886\t239533\t我要根據刑訴跟通訊保障的過去內容依照法律規定找出幾種第一個特定的嫌疑人但是我要區隔出什麼?潛在的受害人有時候犯罪者是跟受害人聯繫的以及共犯以外的第三人比如家人、商業網站上的其他無相關的客戶是不是這樣子?所以這是我們在手機訊號上就現在說的網路的這個通訊流量或相關的通聯記錄在使用上的目的是不一樣的對不對?\n240618\t262232\t所以正因為我們犯罪偵查必須明確的鎖定個人所以我們就必須要法律上授權上有包括檢察官保留法官保留跟一個必要的後面的救濟保障是不是這樣的原因是嗎請就麥跟我回答好是好那這樣我們往下看其實目前詐騙的前三名檢訊電話跟社群媒體社群媒體越來越多人使用了\n262612\t287649\t其實電商平台或通訊軟體的電子郵件都是屬於電信或網路詐欺所以這是為什麼我們今天詐欺這麼猖狂就是因為我們的數位科技通訊非常的發達往下看所以我們舉這個例子以賴群來吸金詐騙我們介紹個案有個民眾失業了他上網有人邀請他加入個賴的投資群組成員當中其他的人跟他畫家場卸下心防成員的其他人然後慢慢的就講到了什麼講到了有關股票、虛擬貨幣的投資訊息要花錢加入專案\n292912\t293253\t）一）行政院函請審\n311710\t330976\tbicyn 犯他既然涉及電信詐騙他一定有受害人受害人就報案警察受理之後他去調查他去先電信業者調取使用者的資料這時候檢警就需要電信業者或社群平台配合他能確定嫌犯的真實身份是不是是這就是為什麼你們的條文當中為什麼要取得用戶的個人資料\n331616\t332237\t二、繼續併案審查一）行政院函請審\n353050\t379386\t時間頻率讓來判斷他聯絡的電話是他的家人還是共犯還是車手還是被害人所以我要再確認一次調取網路的流量記錄是不是是只能看到聯絡的記錄看不到內容看不到內容是啊你們就要必須根據外觀來判斷嗎是這樣嗎就是從這些裡面去做判斷所以這也是為什麼你們需要取得這個流量記錄的原因往下看其實我們目前呢在沒有通訊保障修改之前平台業者怎麼回應警方檢調他的\n381141\t400322\t要求提供這些個資,譬如說我們搜索Dcard、FB有17個重案個資,LINE也要搜索票,我們看一下喔,FB、IG怎麼樣重案就提供,LINE的話要搜索票,Dcard要搜索票,是不是這樣子,實務上是不是這樣子?是。是你也知道還是要問副署長才知道,你確定是這樣嗎?\n403904\t422612\t目前這些大的平台他的態度是不一樣的為什麼因為沒有法律的授權他們可以拒絕是不是這樣好那往下看所以目前我們看通訊法第11條之一我們在第一項當中我們就看到了其實這裡面有三個重點第一個三年以上我們這次最重本刑三年以上的拿掉了\n423171\t443719\t那把檢察官保留呢擴充到也提供給司法警察官那最後呢書面何請法院調取票現在這個也拿掉了是不是這樣子沒有法官保留了嘛那使用者呢從檢察官發動到司法警察官都會發動那麼連本行的規定剛剛集會委員都問過了請問一下你認為做這些修正的目的是什麼\n445908\t466709\t這個第一這個是本來就我們德國跟美國的立法力本來就沒有這一種的而且這個這個完全沒有涉及到內部在你們今天的報告說明當中有收到德國的刑法有這樣的一個立法力就是這個東西是只屬於司法警察官就可以開始發動的是不是這樣對所以你們是參照德國的例子德國美國\n467370\t488958\t好那我來看一下往下看喔但是我們來看一下我舉個例子齁我舉例啦我常常去捐血捐血到最後他要填一個單子他說你同不同意你這些個資可以做學術研究我同意你同不同意把你的捐血的情況拿來做做宣導我說啊可以啦鼓勵大家捐血嘛那你同不同意我們用你的捐血紀錄來給你做表揚我說那不用了\n490077\t504757\t為什麼捐血的時候他要尊重我但是如果說今天衛福部基於疫病的調查要做疫調他擔心我的血有汙染他強迫捐血中心取得我的個資瞭解我這捐血的流向你覺得有沒有可以可不可以有沒有法律的依據\n506803\t525876\t這個是屬於個人資料保護法對不對?這個不是我們通報保障部長可能我了解您的理解的問題的認知好我這樣講齁這個根據傳染病防治法就可以啦根據傳染病防治法基於公益的目的他可以為了瞭解我的血液的分布的流向他可以跟捐血中心拿到我的資料\n526772\t539046\t同樣的道理我們剛剛講我們個人跟手機業者的這些個人的契約內容我有的同意有的不同意但是基於我們犯罪的偵查你們認為有法律授權當然可以拿到嘛是不是這樣\n540100\t563491\t當然可以去取得嘛前提是要法律授權嘛但是法律授權之外有什麼要求呢我們往下看喔修正草案的第三之一條的第三項這個網路的流量紀錄剛剛一直在談到了沈博洋委員也問到了這些內容細微的差別對個人隱私的影響是不一樣的所以他剛剛很細緻的問到了一些問題你們回去要趕快的把它區分清楚同意嗎\n564642\t591504\t我們會再...好那再來呢本來的原則呢是由檢警申請經法官同意修正了但是呢有些重罪就無需法官保留為什麼因為急迫性而且是要快速處理快速處理好但是不管是取得他的流量紀錄或者甚至只是了解他的使用的資料那麼被調查人士會知道嗎剛剛一直在問這個問題啊莊委員也是啊還有誰還有羅委員也是啊所以我是覺得你們對這個部分\n592805\t609198\t有沒有一個想法?那個整個要區分那個要層次性的一個處理嗎?對,流量記錄比較影響大。對對,他一定要通知嘛。但是條文當中有寫到嗎?有沒有?目前是沒有。目前沒有。所以,所以呢你們打算怎麼做?\n613476\t626393\t所以我其實在昨天呢我就提醒你們了昨天我們在審我們的這個科技偵查法的時候我們有說其實相較於科技偵查法只是提供你們偵查犯罪的工具\n626913\t653880\t但是到這個部分通訊保障的部分因為雖然你們不涉及到對內容的監察但是呢對於各自的使用對於流量的紀錄的取得這會對當事人的隱私跟人權有些影響所以我請你們要趕快去思考條文雖然目前的月滿條文並沒有明定但是後續的執行的細則你們要趕快的去思考程序上要予以規範包括警務人員的\n655240\t678421\t教育訓練要予增強正確的觀念那我希望在待會後面逐條的部分是不是你們對於可能的附帶決議你們要先行研議可以嗎那最後的結論我們同意強化偵查效能來達到打造的目標但是我們也希望你們完善各自的保護並考量告知跟就近的機制這個是我們每個人遇到這種情況我可能是\n679517\t679898\t二）行政院函請審\n","txt":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關首長官員、會長工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生、優心法務部正部長還有國家通訊傳播委員會的蔡處長以及行政院個人資料保護委員會籌備處的陳科長請部長、處長、科長\n委員好部長好、處長好、科長好今天我的標題網路版的通聯紀錄有助於主詐跟打詐但通訊版的授權應配套救濟保障這也是很多委員關切的首先我們來看一下先了解一下部長對這個相關的認知下一頁\n這是一個中研院的學術研究他是利用手機的訊號資料去分析雙北的人口移動他這裡面有定位所謂的手機夜間人口跟手機日間人口這是以手機的所在位置去取得但他去對比當時手機用戶申辦門號的時候的個資\n去對應到他的戶籍業縣人口分析這些人住在哪區到了早上這人移動到哪區我先請教一下我們的先請教蔡處長請問你認為這些手機門號業者的這些資料提供學術研究這是可以允許的嗎\n是,如果說他已經去識別化,有辦法再連接到這個所謂的一個個人資料的一個人權的話。好,那陳課長我請教一下,像這樣的一個研究不管是基於學術研究或是基於商業統計,如果在當時手機門號的公司跟申請人用戶本身在契約訂定上有明定同意,那有沒有侵犯到個人隱私?\n我申辦門號的人跟手機門號公司我有這個約定說這個可以從一做商業應用或者做學術研究可以嗎?\n基本上如果是有經過用戶同意的話是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇\n他能顯示輪廓不能回推個人部長你到底瞭解這樣的一個經常性的應用嗎部長你對這樣的應用瞭解嗎這個市場有這樣的一個應用好那我接下來就要問到你了往下看其實呢手機訊號用於商業或學術以及犯罪偵查的區別我大概簡單的闡明一下基於商業的目的或學術研究呢他通常呢\n是根據各執法及契約的約定那原則要當事人同意那你看到這麼一群人他是分析群體的輪廓他大概知道說什麼特性的人在什麼時候大概會在什麼地方出現誰具體誰他去識別他不知道但是我們犯罪偵查就不同了我們犯罪偵查要識別犯罪者在這些通聯的網路的通聯記錄當中我要找到什麼\n我要根據刑訴跟通訊保障的過去內容依照法律規定找出幾種第一個特定的嫌疑人但是我要區隔出什麼?潛在的受害人有時候犯罪者是跟受害人聯繫的以及共犯以外的第三人比如家人、商業網站上的其他無相關的客戶是不是這樣子?所以這是我們在手機訊號上就現在說的網路的這個通訊流量或相關的通聯記錄在使用上的目的是不一樣的對不對?\n所以正因為我們犯罪偵查必須明確的鎖定個人所以我們就必須要法律上授權上有包括檢察官保留法官保留跟一個必要的後面的救濟保障是不是這樣的原因是嗎請就麥跟我回答好是好那這樣我們往下看其實目前詐騙的前三名檢訊電話跟社群媒體社群媒體越來越多人使用了\n其實電商平台或通訊軟體的電子郵件都是屬於電信或網路詐欺所以這是為什麼我們今天詐欺這麼猖狂就是因為我們的數位科技通訊非常的發達往下看所以我們舉這個例子以賴群來吸金詐騙我們介紹個案有個民眾失業了他上網有人邀請他加入個賴的投資群組成員當中其他的人跟他畫家場卸下心防成員的其他人然後慢慢的就講到了什麼講到了有關股票、虛擬貨幣的投資訊息要花錢加入專案\n）一）行政院函請審\nbicyn 犯他既然涉及電信詐騙他一定有受害人受害人就報案警察受理之後他去調查他去先電信業者調取使用者的資料這時候檢警就需要電信業者或社群平台配合他能確定嫌犯的真實身份是不是是這就是為什麼你們的條文當中為什麼要取得用戶的個人資料\n二、繼續併案審查一）行政院函請審\n時間頻率讓來判斷他聯絡的電話是他的家人還是共犯還是車手還是被害人所以我要再確認一次調取網路的流量記錄是不是是只能看到聯絡的記錄看不到內容看不到內容是啊你們就要必須根據外觀來判斷嗎是這樣嗎就是從這些裡面去做判斷所以這也是為什麼你們需要取得這個流量記錄的原因往下看其實我們目前呢在沒有通訊保障修改之前平台業者怎麼回應警方檢調他的\n要求提供這些個資,譬如說我們搜索Dcard、FB有17個重案個資,LINE也要搜索票,我們看一下喔,FB、IG怎麼樣重案就提供,LINE的話要搜索票,Dcard要搜索票,是不是這樣子,實務上是不是這樣子?是。是你也知道還是要問副署長才知道,你確定是這樣嗎?\n目前這些大的平台他的態度是不一樣的為什麼因為沒有法律的授權他們可以拒絕是不是這樣好那往下看所以目前我們看通訊法第11條之一我們在第一項當中我們就看到了其實這裡面有三個重點第一個三年以上我們這次最重本刑三年以上的拿掉了\n那把檢察官保留呢擴充到也提供給司法警察官那最後呢書面何請法院調取票現在這個也拿掉了是不是這樣子沒有法官保留了嘛那使用者呢從檢察官發動到司法警察官都會發動那麼連本行的規定剛剛集會委員都問過了請問一下你認為做這些修正的目的是什麼\n這個第一這個是本來就我們德國跟美國的立法力本來就沒有這一種的而且這個這個完全沒有涉及到內部在你們今天的報告說明當中有收到德國的刑法有這樣的一個立法力就是這個東西是只屬於司法警察官就可以開始發動的是不是這樣對所以你們是參照德國的例子德國美國\n好那我來看一下往下看喔但是我們來看一下我舉個例子齁我舉例啦我常常去捐血捐血到最後他要填一個單子他說你同不同意你這些個資可以做學術研究我同意你同不同意把你的捐血的情況拿來做做宣導我說啊可以啦鼓勵大家捐血嘛那你同不同意我們用你的捐血紀錄來給你做表揚我說那不用了\n為什麼捐血的時候他要尊重我但是如果說今天衛福部基於疫病的調查要做疫調他擔心我的血有汙染他強迫捐血中心取得我的個資瞭解我這捐血的流向你覺得有沒有可以可不可以有沒有法律的依據\n這個是屬於個人資料保護法對不對?這個不是我們通報保障部長可能我了解您的理解的問題的認知好我這樣講齁這個根據傳染病防治法就可以啦根據傳染病防治法基於公益的目的他可以為了瞭解我的血液的分布的流向他可以跟捐血中心拿到我的資料\n同樣的道理我們剛剛講我們個人跟手機業者的這些個人的契約內容我有的同意有的不同意但是基於我們犯罪的偵查你們認為有法律授權當然可以拿到嘛是不是這樣\n當然可以去取得嘛前提是要法律授權嘛但是法律授權之外有什麼要求呢我們往下看喔修正草案的第三之一條的第三項這個網路的流量紀錄剛剛一直在談到了沈博洋委員也問到了這些內容細微的差別對個人隱私的影響是不一樣的所以他剛剛很細緻的問到了一些問題你們回去要趕快的把它區分清楚同意嗎\n我們會再...好那再來呢本來的原則呢是由檢警申請經法官同意修正了但是呢有些重罪就無需法官保留為什麼因為急迫性而且是要快速處理快速處理好但是不管是取得他的流量紀錄或者甚至只是了解他的使用的資料那麼被調查人士會知道嗎剛剛一直在問這個問題啊莊委員也是啊還有誰還有羅委員也是啊所以我是覺得你們對這個部分\n有沒有一個想法?那個整個要區分那個要層次性的一個處理嗎?對,流量記錄比較影響大。對對,他一定要通知嘛。但是條文當中有寫到嗎?有沒有?目前是沒有。目前沒有。所以,所以呢你們打算怎麼做?\n所以我其實在昨天呢我就提醒你們了昨天我們在審我們的這個科技偵查法的時候我們有說其實相較於科技偵查法只是提供你們偵查犯罪的工具\n但是到這個部分通訊保障的部分因為雖然你們不涉及到對內容的監察但是呢對於各自的使用對於流量的紀錄的取得這會對當事人的隱私跟人權有些影響所以我請你們要趕快去思考條文雖然目前的月滿條文並沒有明定但是後續的執行的細則你們要趕快的去思考程序上要予以規範包括警務人員的\n教育訓練要予增強正確的觀念那我希望在待會後面逐條的部分是不是你們對於可能的附帶決議你們要先行研議可以嗎那最後的結論我們同意強化偵查效能來達到打造的目標但是我們也希望你們完善各自的保護並考量告知跟就近的機制這個是我們每個人遇到這種情況我可能是\n二）行政院函請審\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.291 --> 00:24.916\n主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關首長官員、會長工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生、優心法務部正部長還有國家通訊傳播委員會的蔡處長以及行政院個人資料保護委員會籌備處的陳科長請部長、處長、科長\n\n00:33.050 --> 00:48.856\n委員好部長好、處長好、科長好今天我的標題網路版的通聯紀錄有助於主詐跟打詐但通訊版的授權應配套救濟保障這也是很多委員關切的首先我們來看一下先了解一下部長對這個相關的認知下一頁\n\n00:51.017 --> 01:06.488\n這是一個中研院的學術研究他是利用手機的訊號資料去分析雙北的人口移動他這裡面有定位所謂的手機夜間人口跟手機日間人口這是以手機的所在位置去取得但他去對比當時手機用戶申辦門號的時候的個資\n\n01:10.371 --> 01:28.266\n去對應到他的戶籍業縣人口分析這些人住在哪區到了早上這人移動到哪區我先請教一下我們的先請教蔡處長請問你認為這些手機門號業者的這些資料提供學術研究這是可以允許的嗎\n\n01:30.211 --> 01:54.450\n是,如果說他已經去識別化,有辦法再連接到這個所謂的一個個人資料的一個人權的話。好,那陳課長我請教一下,像這樣的一個研究不管是基於學術研究或是基於商業統計,如果在當時手機門號的公司跟申請人用戶本身在契約訂定上有明定同意,那有沒有侵犯到個人隱私?\n\n01:59.554 --> 02:07.480\n我申辦門號的人跟手機門號公司我有這個約定說這個可以從一做商業應用或者做學術研究可以嗎?\n\n02:17.194 --> 02:24.358\n基本上如果是有經過用戶同意的話是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇\n\n02:45.771 --> 03:06.822\n他能顯示輪廓不能回推個人部長你到底瞭解這樣的一個經常性的應用嗎部長你對這樣的應用瞭解嗎這個市場有這樣的一個應用好那我接下來就要問到你了往下看其實呢手機訊號用於商業或學術以及犯罪偵查的區別我大概簡單的闡明一下基於商業的目的或學術研究呢他通常呢\n\n03:07.242 --> 03:31.245\n是根據各執法及契約的約定那原則要當事人同意那你看到這麼一群人他是分析群體的輪廓他大概知道說什麼特性的人在什麼時候大概會在什麼地方出現誰具體誰他去識別他不知道但是我們犯罪偵查就不同了我們犯罪偵查要識別犯罪者在這些通聯的網路的通聯記錄當中我要找到什麼\n\n03:31.886 --> 03:59.533\n我要根據刑訴跟通訊保障的過去內容依照法律規定找出幾種第一個特定的嫌疑人但是我要區隔出什麼?潛在的受害人有時候犯罪者是跟受害人聯繫的以及共犯以外的第三人比如家人、商業網站上的其他無相關的客戶是不是這樣子?所以這是我們在手機訊號上就現在說的網路的這個通訊流量或相關的通聯記錄在使用上的目的是不一樣的對不對?\n\n04:00.618 --> 04:22.232\n所以正因為我們犯罪偵查必須明確的鎖定個人所以我們就必須要法律上授權上有包括檢察官保留法官保留跟一個必要的後面的救濟保障是不是這樣的原因是嗎請就麥跟我回答好是好那這樣我們往下看其實目前詐騙的前三名檢訊電話跟社群媒體社群媒體越來越多人使用了\n\n04:22.612 --> 04:47.649\n其實電商平台或通訊軟體的電子郵件都是屬於電信或網路詐欺所以這是為什麼我們今天詐欺這麼猖狂就是因為我們的數位科技通訊非常的發達往下看所以我們舉這個例子以賴群來吸金詐騙我們介紹個案有個民眾失業了他上網有人邀請他加入個賴的投資群組成員當中其他的人跟他畫家場卸下心防成員的其他人然後慢慢的就講到了什麼講到了有關股票、虛擬貨幣的投資訊息要花錢加入專案\n\n04:52.912 --> 04:53.253\n）一）行政院函請審\n\n05:11.710 --> 05:30.976\nbicyn犯他既然涉及電信詐騙他一定有受害人受害人就報案警察受理之後他去調查他去先電信業者調取使用者的資料這時候檢警就需要電信業者或社群平台配合他能確定嫌犯的真實身份是不是是這就是為什麼你們的條文當中為什麼要取得用戶的個人資料\n\n05:31.616 --> 05:32.237\n二、繼續併案審查一）行政院函請審\n\n05:53.050 --> 06:19.386\n時間頻率讓來判斷他聯絡的電話是他的家人還是共犯還是車手還是被害人所以我要再確認一次調取網路的流量記錄是不是是只能看到聯絡的記錄看不到內容看不到內容是啊你們就要必須根據外觀來判斷嗎是這樣嗎就是從這些裡面去做判斷所以這也是為什麼你們需要取得這個流量記錄的原因往下看其實我們目前呢在沒有通訊保障修改之前平台業者怎麼回應警方檢調他的\n\n06:21.141 --> 06:40.322\n要求提供這些個資,譬如說我們搜索Dcard、FB有17個重案個資,LINE也要搜索票,我們看一下喔,FB、IG怎麼樣重案就提供,LINE的話要搜索票,Dcard要搜索票,是不是這樣子,實務上是不是這樣子?是。是你也知道還是要問副署長才知道,你確定是這樣嗎?\n\n06:43.904 --> 07:02.612\n目前這些大的平台他的態度是不一樣的為什麼因為沒有法律的授權他們可以拒絕是不是這樣好那往下看所以目前我們看通訊法第11條之一我們在第一項當中我們就看到了其實這裡面有三個重點第一個三年以上我們這次最重本刑三年以上的拿掉了\n\n07:03.171 --> 07:23.719\n那把檢察官保留呢擴充到也提供給司法警察官那最後呢書面何請法院調取票現在這個也拿掉了是不是這樣子沒有法官保留了嘛那使用者呢從檢察官發動到司法警察官都會發動那麼連本行的規定剛剛集會委員都問過了請問一下你認為做這些修正的目的是什麼\n\n07:25.908 --> 07:46.709\n這個第一這個是本來就我們德國跟美國的立法力本來就沒有這一種的而且這個這個完全沒有涉及到內部在你們今天的報告說明當中有收到德國的刑法有這樣的一個立法力就是這個東西是只屬於司法警察官就可以開始發動的是不是這樣對所以你們是參照德國的例子德國美國\n\n07:47.370 --> 08:08.958\n好那我來看一下往下看喔但是我們來看一下我舉個例子齁我舉例啦我常常去捐血捐血到最後他要填一個單子他說你同不同意你這些個資可以做學術研究我同意你同不同意把你的捐血的情況拿來做做宣導我說啊可以啦鼓勵大家捐血嘛那你同不同意我們用你的捐血紀錄來給你做表揚我說那不用了\n\n08:10.077 --> 08:24.757\n為什麼捐血的時候他要尊重我但是如果說今天衛福部基於疫病的調查要做疫調他擔心我的血有汙染他強迫捐血中心取得我的個資瞭解我這捐血的流向你覺得有沒有可以可不可以有沒有法律的依據\n\n08:26.803 --> 08:45.876\n這個是屬於個人資料保護法對不對?這個不是我們通報保障部長可能我了解您的理解的問題的認知好我這樣講齁這個根據傳染病防治法就可以啦根據傳染病防治法基於公益的目的他可以為了瞭解我的血液的分布的流向他可以跟捐血中心拿到我的資料\n\n08:46.772 --> 08:59.046\n同樣的道理我們剛剛講我們個人跟手機業者的這些個人的契約內容我有的同意有的不同意但是基於我們犯罪的偵查你們認為有法律授權當然可以拿到嘛是不是這樣\n\n09:00.100 --> 09:23.491\n當然可以去取得嘛前提是要法律授權嘛但是法律授權之外有什麼要求呢我們往下看喔修正草案的第三之一條的第三項這個網路的流量紀錄剛剛一直在談到了沈博洋委員也問到了這些內容細微的差別對個人隱私的影響是不一樣的所以他剛剛很細緻的問到了一些問題你們回去要趕快的把它區分清楚同意嗎\n\n09:24.642 --> 09:51.504\n我們會再...好那再來呢本來的原則呢是由檢警申請經法官同意修正了但是呢有些重罪就無需法官保留為什麼因為急迫性而且是要快速處理快速處理好但是不管是取得他的流量紀錄或者甚至只是了解他的使用的資料那麼被調查人士會知道嗎剛剛一直在問這個問題啊莊委員也是啊還有誰還有羅委員也是啊所以我是覺得你們對這個部分\n\n09:52.805 --> 10:09.198\n有沒有一個想法?那個整個要區分那個要層次性的一個處理嗎?對,流量記錄比較影響大。對對,他一定要通知嘛。但是條文當中有寫到嗎?有沒有?目前是沒有。目前沒有。所以,所以呢你們打算怎麼做?\n\n10:13.476 --> 10:26.393\n所以我其實在昨天呢我就提醒你們了昨天我們在審我們的這個科技偵查法的時候我們有說其實相較於科技偵查法只是提供你們偵查犯罪的工具\n\n10:26.913 --> 10:53.880\n但是到這個部分通訊保障的部分因為雖然你們不涉及到對內容的監察但是呢對於各自的使用對於流量的紀錄的取得這會對當事人的隱私跟人權有些影響所以我請你們要趕快去思考條文雖然目前的月滿條文並沒有明定但是後續的執行的細則你們要趕快的去思考程序上要予以規範包括警務人員的\n\n10:55.240 --> 11:18.421\n教育訓練要予增強正確的觀念那我希望在待會後面逐條的部分是不是你們對於可能的附帶決議你們要先行研議可以嗎那最後的結論我們同意強化偵查效能來達到打造的目標但是我們也希望你們完善各自的保護並考量告知跟就近的機制這個是我們每個人遇到這種情況我可能是\n\n11:19.517 --> 11:19.898\n二）行政院函請審\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.291,"end":24.916,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關首長官員、會長工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生、優心法務部正部長還有國家通訊傳播委員會的蔡處長以及行政院個人資料保護委員會籌備處的陳科長請部長、處長、科長"},{"start":33.05,"end":48.856,"text":"委員好部長好、處長好、科長好今天我的標題網路版的通聯紀錄有助於主詐跟打詐但通訊版的授權應配套救濟保障這也是很多委員關切的首先我們來看一下先了解一下部長對這個相關的認知下一頁"},{"start":51.017,"end":66.488,"text":"這是一個中研院的學術研究他是利用手機的訊號資料去分析雙北的人口移動他這裡面有定位所謂的手機夜間人口跟手機日間人口這是以手機的所在位置去取得但他去對比當時手機用戶申辦門號的時候的個資"},{"start":70.371,"end":88.266,"text":"去對應到他的戶籍業縣人口分析這些人住在哪區到了早上這人移動到哪區我先請教一下我們的先請教蔡處長請問你認為這些手機門號業者的這些資料提供學術研究這是可以允許的嗎"},{"start":90.211,"end":114.45,"text":"是,如果說他已經去識別化,有辦法再連接到這個所謂的一個個人資料的一個人權的話。好,那陳課長我請教一下,像這樣的一個研究不管是基於學術研究或是基於商業統計,如果在當時手機門號的公司跟申請人用戶本身在契約訂定上有明定同意,那有沒有侵犯到個人隱私?"},{"start":119.554,"end":127.48,"text":"我申辦門號的人跟手機門號公司我有這個約定說這個可以從一做商業應用或者做學術研究可以嗎?"},{"start":137.194,"end":144.358,"text":"基本上如果是有經過用戶同意的話是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇"},{"start":165.771,"end":186.822,"text":"他能顯示輪廓不能回推個人部長你到底瞭解這樣的一個經常性的應用嗎部長你對這樣的應用瞭解嗎這個市場有這樣的一個應用好那我接下來就要問到你了往下看其實呢手機訊號用於商業或學術以及犯罪偵查的區別我大概簡單的闡明一下基於商業的目的或學術研究呢他通常呢"},{"start":187.242,"end":211.245,"text":"是根據各執法及契約的約定那原則要當事人同意那你看到這麼一群人他是分析群體的輪廓他大概知道說什麼特性的人在什麼時候大概會在什麼地方出現誰具體誰他去識別他不知道但是我們犯罪偵查就不同了我們犯罪偵查要識別犯罪者在這些通聯的網路的通聯記錄當中我要找到什麼"},{"start":211.886,"end":239.533,"text":"我要根據刑訴跟通訊保障的過去內容依照法律規定找出幾種第一個特定的嫌疑人但是我要區隔出什麼?潛在的受害人有時候犯罪者是跟受害人聯繫的以及共犯以外的第三人比如家人、商業網站上的其他無相關的客戶是不是這樣子?所以這是我們在手機訊號上就現在說的網路的這個通訊流量或相關的通聯記錄在使用上的目的是不一樣的對不對?"},{"start":240.618,"end":262.232,"text":"所以正因為我們犯罪偵查必須明確的鎖定個人所以我們就必須要法律上授權上有包括檢察官保留法官保留跟一個必要的後面的救濟保障是不是這樣的原因是嗎請就麥跟我回答好是好那這樣我們往下看其實目前詐騙的前三名檢訊電話跟社群媒體社群媒體越來越多人使用了"},{"start":262.612,"end":287.649,"text":"其實電商平台或通訊軟體的電子郵件都是屬於電信或網路詐欺所以這是為什麼我們今天詐欺這麼猖狂就是因為我們的數位科技通訊非常的發達往下看所以我們舉這個例子以賴群來吸金詐騙我們介紹個案有個民眾失業了他上網有人邀請他加入個賴的投資群組成員當中其他的人跟他畫家場卸下心防成員的其他人然後慢慢的就講到了什麼講到了有關股票、虛擬貨幣的投資訊息要花錢加入專案"},{"start":292.912,"end":293.253,"text":" ）一）行政院函請審"},{"start":311.71,"end":330.976,"text":" bicyn 犯他既然涉及電信詐騙他一定有受害人受害人就報案警察受理之後他去調查他去先電信業者調取使用者的資料這時候檢警就需要電信業者或社群平台配合他能確定嫌犯的真實身份是不是是這就是為什麼你們的條文當中為什麼要取得用戶的個人資料"},{"start":331.616,"end":332.237,"text":"二、繼續併案審查一）行政院函請審"},{"start":353.05,"end":379.386,"text":"時間頻率讓來判斷他聯絡的電話是他的家人還是共犯還是車手還是被害人所以我要再確認一次調取網路的流量記錄是不是是只能看到聯絡的記錄看不到內容看不到內容是啊你們就要必須根據外觀來判斷嗎是這樣嗎就是從這些裡面去做判斷所以這也是為什麼你們需要取得這個流量記錄的原因往下看其實我們目前呢在沒有通訊保障修改之前平台業者怎麼回應警方檢調他的"},{"start":381.141,"end":400.322,"text":"要求提供這些個資,譬如說我們搜索Dcard、FB有17個重案個資,LINE也要搜索票,我們看一下喔,FB、IG怎麼樣重案就提供,LINE的話要搜索票,Dcard要搜索票,是不是這樣子,實務上是不是這樣子?是。是你也知道還是要問副署長才知道,你確定是這樣嗎?"},{"start":403.904,"end":422.612,"text":"目前這些大的平台他的態度是不一樣的為什麼因為沒有法律的授權他們可以拒絕是不是這樣好那往下看所以目前我們看通訊法第11條之一我們在第一項當中我們就看到了其實這裡面有三個重點第一個三年以上我們這次最重本刑三年以上的拿掉了"},{"start":423.171,"end":443.719,"text":"那把檢察官保留呢擴充到也提供給司法警察官那最後呢書面何請法院調取票現在這個也拿掉了是不是這樣子沒有法官保留了嘛那使用者呢從檢察官發動到司法警察官都會發動那麼連本行的規定剛剛集會委員都問過了請問一下你認為做這些修正的目的是什麼"},{"start":445.908,"end":466.709,"text":"這個第一這個是本來就我們德國跟美國的立法力本來就沒有這一種的而且這個這個完全沒有涉及到內部在你們今天的報告說明當中有收到德國的刑法有這樣的一個立法力就是這個東西是只屬於司法警察官就可以開始發動的是不是這樣對所以你們是參照德國的例子德國美國"},{"start":467.37,"end":488.958,"text":"好那我來看一下往下看喔但是我們來看一下我舉個例子齁我舉例啦我常常去捐血捐血到最後他要填一個單子他說你同不同意你這些個資可以做學術研究我同意你同不同意把你的捐血的情況拿來做做宣導我說啊可以啦鼓勵大家捐血嘛那你同不同意我們用你的捐血紀錄來給你做表揚我說那不用了"},{"start":490.077,"end":504.757,"text":"為什麼捐血的時候他要尊重我但是如果說今天衛福部基於疫病的調查要做疫調他擔心我的血有汙染他強迫捐血中心取得我的個資瞭解我這捐血的流向你覺得有沒有可以可不可以有沒有法律的依據"},{"start":506.803,"end":525.876,"text":"這個是屬於個人資料保護法對不對?這個不是我們通報保障部長可能我了解您的理解的問題的認知好我這樣講齁這個根據傳染病防治法就可以啦根據傳染病防治法基於公益的目的他可以為了瞭解我的血液的分布的流向他可以跟捐血中心拿到我的資料"},{"start":526.772,"end":539.046,"text":"同樣的道理我們剛剛講我們個人跟手機業者的這些個人的契約內容我有的同意有的不同意但是基於我們犯罪的偵查你們認為有法律授權當然可以拿到嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":540.1,"end":563.491,"text":"當然可以去取得嘛前提是要法律授權嘛但是法律授權之外有什麼要求呢我們往下看喔修正草案的第三之一條的第三項這個網路的流量紀錄剛剛一直在談到了沈博洋委員也問到了這些內容細微的差別對個人隱私的影響是不一樣的所以他剛剛很細緻的問到了一些問題你們回去要趕快的把它區分清楚同意嗎"},{"start":564.642,"end":591.504,"text":"我們會再...好那再來呢本來的原則呢是由檢警申請經法官同意修正了但是呢有些重罪就無需法官保留為什麼因為急迫性而且是要快速處理快速處理好但是不管是取得他的流量紀錄或者甚至只是了解他的使用的資料那麼被調查人士會知道嗎剛剛一直在問這個問題啊莊委員也是啊還有誰還有羅委員也是啊所以我是覺得你們對這個部分"},{"start":592.805,"end":609.198,"text":"有沒有一個想法?那個整個要區分那個要層次性的一個處理嗎?對,流量記錄比較影響大。對對,他一定要通知嘛。但是條文當中有寫到嗎?有沒有?目前是沒有。目前沒有。所以,所以呢你們打算怎麼做?"},{"start":613.476,"end":626.393,"text":"所以我其實在昨天呢我就提醒你們了昨天我們在審我們的這個科技偵查法的時候我們有說其實相較於科技偵查法只是提供你們偵查犯罪的工具"},{"start":626.913,"end":653.88,"text":"但是到這個部分通訊保障的部分因為雖然你們不涉及到對內容的監察但是呢對於各自的使用對於流量的紀錄的取得這會對當事人的隱私跟人權有些影響所以我請你們要趕快去思考條文雖然目前的月滿條文並沒有明定但是後續的執行的細則你們要趕快的去思考程序上要予以規範包括警務人員的"},{"start":655.24,"end":678.421,"text":"教育訓練要予增強正確的觀念那我希望在待會後面逐條的部分是不是你們對於可能的附帶決議你們要先行研議可以嗎那最後的結論我們同意強化偵查效能來達到打造的目標但是我們也希望你們完善各自的保護並考量告知跟就近的機制這個是我們每個人遇到這種情況我可能是"},{"start":679.517,"end":679.898,"text":"二）行政院函請審"}]}}}}