{"id":153726,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153726","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5fe0f5b1756b19f8cb42b94709b0a0804ee56b966b91e113051333fc182bd9e865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:43:33 - 10:55:55","影片長度":"00:12:22","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:43:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:55:55+08:00","duration":742,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":437,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時43分）謝謝主席，請交通部陳次長。"],["主席：陳次長請。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長好。今天謝謝主席排了這個基隆公路邊坡的走山，類似像這樣的一個事情，我想對於國人而言，每一個人都希望能夠快快樂樂出門、平平安安回家，我想這個是每一個人的期待。當然，我相信有一些事情，我們政府能夠做的，我們就是盡量預防，有一些事情如果它是意外，那它就是意外，但是我們希望把意外能夠以配合公務機關預算的投入，能夠隨著科技的進步，加上交通部更積極勇於面對這些相關的可能，我們把意外把它降到最低。意外不可能叫做0，把意外降到最低，我想就是國人的期待，也是國會在監督交通部時非常重要的任務。","我今天就來跟次長探討一下，有關邊坡定性，部裡面有分級。我看了一下，我們的定性分級，分了A、B、C、D4個級，這4個級大概都有定義，譬如說A級表示這是最危險的，2年內有災害紀錄，且尚未完成復建，或明顯有不穩定徵兆之邊坡；一直到D級，5年內未有災害紀錄，且沒有明顯不穩定的徵兆之邊坡，所以我們做了一個處理。","我以這個案子，我們來看一下，交通部對於這個邊坡定性分級，我們做時間表把它整理了一下：108年10月定義叫C級，到了111年10月叫D級，換言之，108年到111年中間，我不知道是因為依規定不用查，還是它都是C級？因為這是就我能找到的資料，111年11月交通委員會做了一個臨時提案要總體檢，但是該段並沒有被納入。112年是D級，總體檢報告發布它是D級，換言之，我認為你們可能是因為該段未納入，所以這個D級可能是根據111年10月所做的分類。到了112年6月，也就是5月到6月，就是總體檢報告一個月後，這個地方從D級，也就是最安全等級，一下子跳到A級，就變成它是最危險等級。然後同一年的10月，也就是6月到10月這短短4個月的時間它又變成C級，那有可能是因為工程，我猜有可能是一個工程在興建中，一個已經完成，所以它又變成了C級。當然6月就發生了邊坡塌陷的情形。請問次長，我幫你做時間序的分類，其意旨在說明交通部對於定性分類完之後的A、B、C、D，到底它要從A變B、它的上下移動，就是它的分級變動是依據什麼準則？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，委員剛才在前面那一張裡面有描述各種狀況，這叫做定性分析，但是我們另外還有一個更細緻的分類，即便是A、B、C、D級以後，它還會針對天候的、氣象的問題，雨量、颱風、地震等等或坍塌的情形，或有致災等等會去調整等級。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯。"],["陳次長彥伯：所以在這裡頭就可以看到112年為什麼會變成6月的時候升級了，在我的瞭解因為那時候應該是四月多，那個地方有一個小坍方，大概150平方米的落石，所以就把它災害等級變成A級，A級以後我們就會有相關的防護作為要去做，所以那邊有做一些處理，處理完了再經過一定期間的觀察以後，認為它是穩定的，所以又把它降為C級，大概是用這種方式在做滾動檢討。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為這是一個個案，我想要請教的問題在於，交通部所謂的定性分級是多久公告一次？也就是公告一定是有經過一個體檢或者經過一個什麼事件，所以你才會去更動這個公告嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，有幾個面向，剛才我講的那種天候影響是立即，平常會有巡檢、巡查，巡查以後也會有定期檢查，如果檢測完以後，發現它是有一些不安全的徵兆，就會做一些調整，所以這種……"],["蔡委員其昌：所以它是定期巡查，還是不定期巡查？"],["陳次長彥伯：我剛才講分兩塊，天災叫作特別的、臨時的檢查，那是不定期的；定期的就是有巡檢，就像我講，一個禮拜……"],["蔡委員其昌：多久定期檢查一次？"],["陳次長彥伯：一週要去巡，一年要去做檢測等等，然後有些地方會有監測儀器，其監測、監控的結果發現有不安全的徵兆等等，所以剛才講多久其實是滾動啦！依照這樣的情形，由各段按這種方式來做滾動的檢討。"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思就是，光這個分級裡面，我就沒有辦法很明白地告訴大家，第一個，檢查基本上如果沒有特別事情發生，定期是多久一次？所以照理說，定期檢查一結束，就像人的體檢報告嘛！每一年都做一次體檢，體檢的時間假設都是11月，公告這個人健不健康可能是12月公告，所以民眾只要知道我今年會經過的路段，譬如說我上班會經過的路段、我要出去旅遊而我在山裡面可能有邊坡，我可以在交通部網站裡面快速查到去年的檢查報告是怎麼樣，我的意思是說，交通部對於定期檢查時間，因為是定期嘛！換言之，你是一個月內完成所有工務段的體檢，然後體檢完之後隔一個月就公告，讓大家一目瞭然這件事情是經過交通部每一年都有去。第二個，可能是不定期，譬如說不知道什麼時候會豪雨，也不知道什麼時候會地震，豪雨、地震之後可能會不定期的檢查，所以有可能路段從D變成A，你要隨時注意喔！因為在地震跟豪雨過後可能會隨時有機動性的變動，這樣的查核一目瞭然、清清楚楚、明明白白，次長，這樣可不可以做得到？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告一下，現在所有的邊坡都有一個牌面，牌面上會告訴大家現在等級是什麼等級，其實我覺得公路局應該會對每一個邊坡或每一個路段的公告，都有一個檢測或巡檢類似像紀錄都會在那裡頭，公路局說不定有了，沒有的話，可以把這樣的東西建立起來，在那樣的牌面上其實只要有一個QR Code，民眾掃一下就可以看到清楚的履歷，什麼時候檢查、什麼時候做一些改變。"],["蔡委員其昌：請問一下要去哪裡找到這個牌子掃QR Code？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個牌子在現在所有的邊坡上都看得到，我的瞭解……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，有可能一個邊坡是2公里，我不就要去邊坡巡查看那塊牌子你們放在哪裡？"],["陳次長彥伯：應該是經過都會看得到啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思是我們都講到AI了，我們都講到AI了啦！AI照理我跟它說這個路段安全嗎？AI直接要告訴我說：老闆，現在你走過這裡，公路局說是D，很安全。我都還沒有講AI，我只是說可不可以讓大家……因為你都已經做了嘛！我要強調的就是，政府有在做事情就要說給大家知道，有一個制度立法委員要監督才會清楚，他才清清楚楚啊！所以是不是意外其實在於有沒有按照SOP做，如果法令的規定就是這樣子，公務同仁都按照SOP做，做完之後不幸的又發生了坍塌，這樣就是意外；如果不照SOP做，這個叫做人禍，因為都不是按照既有的規矩做事情啊！所以我才會藉著這個事情，我沒有責怪你們的意思，因為我看了這個報告說要責怪你們，說實在話，我也不知道責怪什麼，但是我要檢討的是這個SOP的流程讓它清清楚楚、讓每一個工務段的公務同仁知道他幾月幾號該做這個事情，做好之後也依規定能做好就公告。你想知道，你也可以很清楚地知道，所以你都已經做了，就不用怕嘛！不一定要到現場。","例如我開車，你想依人性，我開車去旅遊，我開去基隆看到邊坡，等一下要過的時候不知道安全嗎？我還要先找到牌子，然後開始掃QR Code，掃完之後，這個是D級，沒有問題，慢慢開；掃到A級，要開快一點，因為這很危險，有可能會坍塌，這不合人性嘛！這不符合邏輯嘛！所以我才會建議次長、建議交通部按照SOP來做，做完就讓大家知道你們都有做、每一年都有做，那豪雨過後、地震過後你們有特別的處理就按照這樣處理，次長，你覺得我這樣的建議可不可以做得到？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想委員的建議首先要說明的就是，各工務段的同仁應該都是有按照我剛才講的SOP程序在做……"],["蔡委員其昌：次長，我沒有說他們沒有按照啦！我只是建議因為你都定期公告、定期……大家就清楚嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，然後接下來我會跟公路局同仁來討論一下，如何讓定期檢測、各種檢測完的結果透明的公開。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，除非你有其他顧慮，譬如說這是不能讓……"],["陳次長彥伯：不會、不會、不會。"],["蔡委員其昌：有國安問題，不可以讓共匪知道，你當然不公告嘛！其他的……"],["陳次長彥伯：我剛才有講我們相關的ABCD等級都有公告在道路的沿線，就代表說對這種公告，我們是……"],["蔡委員其昌：是沒有問題的。"],["陳次長彥伯：很希望公開透明……"],["蔡委員其昌：好嗎？儘量去做啦！因為我覺得這樣子清清楚楚，我們做事情清清楚楚，這樣同仁也沒有壓力，都有照規矩做了，萬一有什麼意外發生，大家才不會恐懼害怕嘛！因為都照規矩做了，這叫意外，不然立法院又要檢討是不是有人禍，是不是這樣子？"],["陳次長彥伯：好，沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝。"],["主席（林委員國成代）：謝謝蔡其昌副院長。","現在請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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0.878}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 740.965, \"end\": 741.306, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 741.306, \"end\": 741.406, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 741.406, \"end\": 741.526, \"score\": 0.577}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 741.526, \"end\": 741.547, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,889 --> 00:00:08,451\n謝謝主席請交通部陳次長委員好次長好今天謝謝主席排了基隆公路邊坡的走山類似像這樣的一個事情\n\n2\n00:00:33,975 --> 00:00:50,047\n我想對於國人而言每一個人都希望能夠快快樂樂出門平平安安回家我想這個是每一個人的期待那當然我相信有一些事情我們政府\n\n3\n00:00:50,543 --> 00:01:14,542\n能夠做的我們就是盡量預防但有一些事情如果它是意外那它就是意外但是我們希望把意外能夠以配合公務機關預算的投入能夠隨著科技的進步加上交通部更積極勇於面對這些相關可能我們把意外把它降到最低\n\n4\n00:01:15,582 --> 00:01:43,333\n這個不可能意外叫做零但意外降到最低我想就是國人的期待也是國會在監督交通部裡面非常重要的任務所以我今天就來跟市長探討一下這個我們有關這個邊坡定性這個部裡面有分級我看了一下我們定性分級分了A、B、C、D四個級\n\n5\n00:01:44,932 --> 00:02:04,988\n那四個級大概都有定義比如說A級表示這個是最危險的兩年內有災害紀錄且尚未完成復建或明顯不穩定徵兆之邊坡然後一直到D級就是五年內未有災害紀錄且沒有明顯不穩定的徵兆之邊坡所以我們有做了一個處理\n\n6\n00:02:06,189 --> 00:02:23,438\n那我以這一個案子我們來看一下交通部對於這個邊坡定性分級我們所做的一些時間表的我們把它整理一下108年的10月我們定義它叫做C級\n\n7\n00:02:24,724 --> 00:02:50,848\n到了111年的10月叫D級那換言之108年到111年中間我不知道是因為依規定不用查還是說他都是C級因為這個是就我能找到的資料111年11月交通委員會做了一個臨時提案這個要總體檢但是該段並沒有被納入沒有被納入那112年\n\n8\n00:02:54,349 --> 00:03:14,368\n他是第幾總體檢報告發布他是第幾換言之我認為你們可能是根據因為該段未納入所以可能這個第幾是根據111年的10月所做的分類到了112年6月也就是這個5月到6月就是總體檢報告一個月後\n\n9\n00:03:16,926 --> 00:03:41,836\n我們這個地方從D級也就是最安全等級一下子跳到A級就變成它是最危險等級然後呢同一年的10月也就是6月到10月這短短的4個月的時間它又變成C級那有可能是因為工程我猜啦可能有可能是一個在興建中一個工程已經完成所以它又變成了C級\n\n10\n00:03:43,015 --> 00:04:09,779\n好那當然6月就發生了這個邊坡攤限的這個情形好那我想請問次長就是說我幫你做這個時間序的分類一直在說明交通部對於我們定性分類完之後的ABCD我們到底是他從A變B他的上下移動就是他的分級的變動他依據什麼準則\n\n11\n00:04:13,862 --> 00:04:32,692\n我跟委員報告委員剛才在前面的那一章裡面當然有描述各種狀況這叫做定性的一個分析但是在這個我們另外還有一個更細緻的一個分類裡頭即便是ABCD級以後\n\n12\n00:04:33,152 --> 00:04:50,754\n他還是會針對這個雨量的天候的氣象的問題雨量啦颱風啦地震啊等等的或坍塌的情形或有什麼自災等等他會去調整他的一個等級所以在這裡頭你就可以看得到112年他為什麼會變成\n\n13\n00:04:52,296 --> 00:04:52,776\n我想請教就是\n\n14\n00:05:21,667 --> 00:05:31,364\n因為他是這個是一個個案是我想要請教的問題在於說交通部這個所謂的定性分級他是多久檢查多久\n\n15\n00:05:32,438 --> 00:05:54,067\n公告一次也就是說你公告一定是有經過一個體檢或者經過一個什麼事件所以你才會去更動這個公告我跟委員報告有幾個面向剛才我講的說那種天候影響那是立即平常他會有巡檢巡查然後巡查以後然後他也會有定期的檢查\n\n16\n00:05:54,967 --> 00:06:15,624\n那如果檢測完以後發現他是有一些不安全的徵兆他就會做一些調整所以呢所以他是定期巡查還是不定期巡查?他是定期我剛才講分兩塊啦就是天災那個叫做特別的臨時的特別的檢查那是不定期的那定期的就是有巡檢就像我講多久定期\n\n17\n00:06:17,045 --> 00:06:37,432\n一週要去做巡啦然後一年要去做檢測啦等等的然後他還有有些地方會有監測的儀器他監測監控的結果發現他有不安全的徵兆等等的所以剛才講了多久來他其實是滾動啦依照這樣的一個情形由各段這種方式來做滾動的一個檢討\n\n18\n00:06:39,212 --> 00:07:05,868\n對我的意思就是說我光這個分級裡面我就沒有辦法很明白的告訴大家第一個這個是檢查基本上如果沒有特別事情發生定期一次多久定期一次所以叫你說你定期檢查一結束就像這個人的體檢報告每個每一年你都做一次體檢那你體檢的時間假設都是11月所以你公告的時間這個人健不健康你可能是12月公告\n\n19\n00:07:06,806 --> 00:07:30,797\n所以民眾只要知道我今年我會經過的路段比如說我上班會經過路段我要出去旅遊我在山裡面可能有邊坡那我可以在交通部網站裡面快速去查得這個去年的檢查報告是怎麼樣所以換言之我的意思是說交通部對於定期檢查時間因為你是定期嘛換言之你是一個月內完成所有公路段的體檢\n\n20\n00:07:32,037 --> 00:07:53,793\n然後體檢完之後隔一個月你就公告這個讓大家一目瞭然說欸這件事情他是經過交通部每一年他都有去那第二個那可能是不定期比如說我不知道什麼時候會豪雨嘛我也不知道什麼時候會地震可能豪雨地震之後那我們可能會不定期的去檢查所以也有可能路段從這個D變成A\n\n21\n00:07:57,296 --> 00:08:21,470\n你要隨時注意喔因為在地震跟豪雨過後我可能會隨時有機動性的變動這樣的查核清楚一目了然清清楚楚明明白白市長這樣可不可以做得到我想我跟委員報告一下現在所有的邊坡它都有一個排面排面上會去告訴大家它現在這個等級是什麼等級\n\n22\n00:08:22,190 --> 00:08:41,310\n那其實我覺得公務局應該會對每一個邊坡或每一個路段他公告出來的他都有他一個檢測或巡檢的一個類似像紀錄都會在那裡頭我覺得我們可以看公務局說不定有了沒有的話可以把這樣的東西建立起來\n\n23\n00:08:42,050 --> 00:09:06,754\n在那樣的一個牌面上其實只要有一個QRCode民眾掃一下就可以看到清楚的履歷他做一些什麼時候檢查什麼時候做一些改變請問要去哪裡找到這個牌子這個牌子在現在所有的邊坡上都看得到我的瞭解甚至有可能一個邊坡是兩公里我不就要去那個邊坡巡查看那台牌子在哪裡應該是你經過都會看到我的意思是說這是我們都講到AI\n\n24\n00:09:11,297 --> 00:09:31,698\n我們都講到AI啦AI叫你說喔是因為我說這個路端安全嘛那AI直接要告訴我說欸老闆現在你走過這公路局說這是低很安全的我都還沒有講AI我只是說可不可以讓大家很因為你都已經做了嘛我要強調的就是說\n\n25\n00:09:32,850 --> 00:09:58,419\n我們政府有在做事情我們就要講給大家知道有一個制度立法院委員要監督才會清楚清清楚楚所以是不是意外它其實在於說我們有沒有按照SOP做如果公務同仁法令的規定就是這樣子我們大家都按照SOP做做完之後不幸的它又發生了坍塌這樣叫做意外\n\n26\n00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:17,738\n那如果你不照SOP做啊這個叫做人禍因為你就不按照這個既有的規矩做事情啊所以我才會藉著這個事情我沒有責怪你們的意思啦因為我看了這個報告說要責怪你們說實在話我也不知道責怪什麼但是我要檢討的是這個SOP的流程\n\n27\n00:10:18,338 --> 00:10:46,065\n讓他清清楚楚讓每一個公路段的工程知道他幾月幾號該做這個事情做好之後我也依規定我能做好我就公告你想知道你也可以很清楚的知道所以你都已經做了你就不怕不用怕嘛不一定要到現場那我就開車你想在一個人性我開車去旅遊我開去基隆看到邊坡我要先找到我等一下要過的時候不知道要安裝沒有我還要去找先找到牌子然後開始掃QRCODE\n\n28\n00:10:47,265 --> 00:11:14,490\n掃完之後,這個是低,沒有問題,慢慢開。對,掃到,欸,噢,開到香了,因為這將會不可能會坍塌。這不合人性嘛,這不符合邏輯嘛。所以我才會建議次長,建議交通部,我們按照SOP來做,做完,我就讓大家知道說,我們都有做,每一年都有做。那豪雨過後,地震過後,我們有特別的這個處理,我們就按照這樣處理。次長你覺得我這樣的建議可不可以做得到?\n\n29\n00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:30,784\n我想委員的建議首先要說明的就是說同仁應該是各公務段的同仁應該都是有按照我剛才講的那個SOP的程序我沒有說他們沒有按照啦我只是建議說因為你都定期廣告定期那個就大家都清楚嘛\n\n30\n00:11:31,215 --> 00:11:49,827\n是,然後接下來我想我們會跟公務局同仁來討論一下如何讓定期檢測各種檢測完的結果讓他透明的公開來除非你有其他顧慮,譬如說這是不能讓不會不會不會有國安問題不可以讓共匪知道\n\n31\n00:11:50,487 --> 00:12:14,314\n那你當然不公告嘛我剛才就講說我們相關的ABCD等級我們都有公告在道路的沿線就代表說對這種公告我們是很希望公民公開透明因為我覺得這樣子清清楚楚我們做事情清清楚楚這樣同仁也沒有壓力我都有照顧記者萬一有什麼意外發生大家不會批評因為我都照顧記者這就是意外\n\n32\n00:12:17,515 --> 00:12:21,547\n阿不然齁,立法院又要檢討是不是有人禍阿?是不是這樣子?好,好,沒問題\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5889\t8451\t謝謝主席請交通部陳次長委員好次長好今天謝謝主席排了基隆公路邊坡的走山類似像這樣的一個事情\n33975\t50047\t我想對於國人而言每一個人都希望能夠快快樂樂出門平平安安回家我想這個是每一個人的期待那當然我相信有一些事情我們政府\n50543\t74542\t能夠做的我們就是盡量預防但有一些事情如果它是意外那它就是意外但是我們希望把意外能夠以配合公務機關預算的投入能夠隨著科技的進步加上交通部更積極勇於面對這些相關可能我們把意外把它降到最低\n75582\t103333\t這個不可能意外叫做零但意外降到最低我想就是國人的期待也是國會在監督交通部裡面非常重要的任務所以我今天就來跟市長探討一下這個我們有關這個邊坡定性這個部裡面有分級我看了一下我們定性分級分了A、B、C、D四個級\n104932\t124988\t那四個級大概都有定義比如說A級表示這個是最危險的兩年內有災害紀錄且尚未完成復建或明顯不穩定徵兆之邊坡然後一直到D級就是五年內未有災害紀錄且沒有明顯不穩定的徵兆之邊坡所以我們有做了一個處理\n126189\t143438\t那我以這一個案子我們來看一下交通部對於這個邊坡定性分級我們所做的一些時間表的我們把它整理一下108年的10月我們定義它叫做C級\n144724\t170848\t到了111年的10月叫D級那換言之108年到111年中間我不知道是因為依規定不用查還是說他都是C級因為這個是就我能找到的資料111年11月交通委員會做了一個臨時提案這個要總體檢但是該段並沒有被納入沒有被納入那112年\n174349\t194368\t他是第幾總體檢報告發布他是第幾換言之我認為你們可能是根據因為該段未納入所以可能這個第幾是根據111年的10月所做的分類到了112年6月也就是這個5月到6月就是總體檢報告一個月後\n196926\t221836\t我們這個地方從D級也就是最安全等級一下子跳到A級就變成它是最危險等級然後呢同一年的10月也就是6月到10月這短短的4個月的時間它又變成C級那有可能是因為工程我猜啦可能有可能是一個在興建中一個工程已經完成所以它又變成了C級\n223015\t249779\t好那當然6月就發生了這個邊坡攤限的這個情形好那我想請問次長就是說我幫你做這個時間序的分類一直在說明交通部對於我們定性分類完之後的ABCD我們到底是他從A變B他的上下移動就是他的分級的變動他依據什麼準則\n253862\t272692\t我跟委員報告委員剛才在前面的那一章裡面當然有描述各種狀況這叫做定性的一個分析但是在這個我們另外還有一個更細緻的一個分類裡頭即便是ABCD級以後\n273152\t290754\t他還是會針對這個雨量的天候的氣象的問題雨量啦颱風啦地震啊等等的或坍塌的情形或有什麼自災等等他會去調整他的一個等級所以在這裡頭你就可以看得到112年他為什麼會變成\n292296\t292776\t我想請教就是\n321667\t331364\t因為他是這個是一個個案是我想要請教的問題在於說交通部這個所謂的定性分級他是多久檢查多久\n332438\t354067\t公告一次也就是說你公告一定是有經過一個體檢或者經過一個什麼事件所以你才會去更動這個公告我跟委員報告有幾個面向剛才我講的說那種天候影響那是立即平常他會有巡檢巡查然後巡查以後然後他也會有定期的檢查\n354967\t375624\t那如果檢測完以後發現他是有一些不安全的徵兆他就會做一些調整所以呢所以他是定期巡查還是不定期巡查?他是定期我剛才講分兩塊啦就是天災那個叫做特別的臨時的特別的檢查那是不定期的那定期的就是有巡檢就像我講多久定期\n377045\t397432\t一週要去做巡啦然後一年要去做檢測啦等等的然後他還有有些地方會有監測的儀器他監測監控的結果發現他有不安全的徵兆等等的所以剛才講了多久來他其實是滾動啦依照這樣的一個情形由各段這種方式來做滾動的一個檢討\n399212\t425868\t對我的意思就是說我光這個分級裡面我就沒有辦法很明白的告訴大家第一個這個是檢查基本上如果沒有特別事情發生定期一次多久定期一次所以叫你說你定期檢查一結束就像這個人的體檢報告每個每一年你都做一次體檢那你體檢的時間假設都是11月所以你公告的時間這個人健不健康你可能是12月公告\n426806\t450797\t所以民眾只要知道我今年我會經過的路段比如說我上班會經過路段我要出去旅遊我在山裡面可能有邊坡那我可以在交通部網站裡面快速去查得這個去年的檢查報告是怎麼樣所以換言之我的意思是說交通部對於定期檢查時間因為你是定期嘛換言之你是一個月內完成所有公路段的體檢\n452037\t473793\t然後體檢完之後隔一個月你就公告這個讓大家一目瞭然說欸這件事情他是經過交通部每一年他都有去那第二個那可能是不定期比如說我不知道什麼時候會豪雨嘛我也不知道什麼時候會地震可能豪雨地震之後那我們可能會不定期的去檢查所以也有可能路段從這個D變成A\n477296\t501470\t你要隨時注意喔因為在地震跟豪雨過後我可能會隨時有機動性的變動這樣的查核清楚一目了然清清楚楚明明白白市長這樣可不可以做得到我想我跟委員報告一下現在所有的邊坡它都有一個排面排面上會去告訴大家它現在這個等級是什麼等級\n502190\t521310\t那其實我覺得公務局應該會對每一個邊坡或每一個路段他公告出來的他都有他一個檢測或巡檢的一個類似像紀錄都會在那裡頭我覺得我們可以看公務局說不定有了沒有的話可以把這樣的東西建立起來\n522050\t546754\t在那樣的一個牌面上其實只要有一個QR Code民眾掃一下就可以看到清楚的履歷他做一些什麼時候檢查什麼時候做一些改變請問要去哪裡找到這個牌子這個牌子在現在所有的邊坡上都看得到我的瞭解甚至有可能一個邊坡是兩公里我不就要去那個邊坡巡查看那台牌子在哪裡應該是你經過都會看到我的意思是說這是我們都講到AI\n551297\t571698\t我們都講到AI啦AI叫你說喔是因為我說這個路端安全嘛那AI直接要告訴我說欸老闆現在你走過這公路局說這是低很安全的我都還沒有講AI我只是說可不可以讓大家很因為你都已經做了嘛我要強調的就是說\n572850\t598419\t我們政府有在做事情我們就要講給大家知道有一個制度立法院委員要監督才會清楚清清楚楚所以是不是意外它其實在於說我們有沒有按照SOP做如果公務同仁法令的規定就是這樣子我們大家都按照SOP做做完之後不幸的它又發生了坍塌這樣叫做意外\n599520\t617738\t那如果你不照SOP做啊這個叫做人禍因為你就不按照這個既有的規矩做事情啊所以我才會藉著這個事情我沒有責怪你們的意思啦因為我看了這個報告說要責怪你們說實在話我也不知道責怪什麼但是我要檢討的是這個SOP的流程\n618338\t646065\t讓他清清楚楚讓每一個公路段的工程知道他幾月幾號該做這個事情做好之後我也依規定我能做好我就公告你想知道你也可以很清楚的知道所以你都已經做了你就不怕不用怕嘛不一定要到現場那我就開車你想在一個人性我開車去旅遊我開去基隆看到邊坡我要先找到我等一下要過的時候不知道要安裝沒有我還要去找先找到牌子然後開始掃QR CODE\n647265\t674490\t掃完之後,這個是低,沒有問題,慢慢開。對,掃到,欸,噢,開到香了,因為這將會不可能會坍塌。這不合人性嘛,這不符合邏輯嘛。所以我才會建議次長,建議交通部,我們按照SOP來做,做完,我就讓大家知道說,我們都有做,每一年都有做。那豪雨過後,地震過後,我們有特別的這個處理,我們就按照這樣處理。次長你覺得我這樣的建議可不可以做得到?\n674790\t690784\t我想委員的建議首先要說明的就是說同仁應該是各公務段的同仁應該都是有按照我剛才講的那個SOP的程序我沒有說他們沒有按照啦我只是建議說因為你都定期廣告定期那個就大家都清楚嘛\n691215\t709827\t是,然後接下來我想我們會跟公務局同仁來討論一下如何讓定期檢測各種檢測完的結果讓他透明的公開來除非你有其他顧慮,譬如說這是不能讓不會不會不會有國安問題不可以讓共匪知道\n710487\t734314\t那你當然不公告嘛我剛才就講說我們相關的ABCD等級我們都有公告在道路的沿線就代表說對這種公告我們是很希望公民公開透明因為我覺得這樣子清清楚楚我們做事情清清楚楚這樣同仁也沒有壓力我都有照顧記者萬一有什麼意外發生大家不會批評因為我都照顧記者這就是意外\n737515\t741547\t阿不然齁,立法院又要檢討是不是有人禍阿?是不是這樣子?好,好,沒問題\n","txt":"謝謝主席請交通部陳次長委員好次長好今天謝謝主席排了基隆公路邊坡的走山類似像這樣的一個事情\n我想對於國人而言每一個人都希望能夠快快樂樂出門平平安安回家我想這個是每一個人的期待那當然我相信有一些事情我們政府\n能夠做的我們就是盡量預防但有一些事情如果它是意外那它就是意外但是我們希望把意外能夠以配合公務機關預算的投入能夠隨著科技的進步加上交通部更積極勇於面對這些相關可能我們把意外把它降到最低\n這個不可能意外叫做零但意外降到最低我想就是國人的期待也是國會在監督交通部裡面非常重要的任務所以我今天就來跟市長探討一下這個我們有關這個邊坡定性這個部裡面有分級我看了一下我們定性分級分了A、B、C、D四個級\n那四個級大概都有定義比如說A級表示這個是最危險的兩年內有災害紀錄且尚未完成復建或明顯不穩定徵兆之邊坡然後一直到D級就是五年內未有災害紀錄且沒有明顯不穩定的徵兆之邊坡所以我們有做了一個處理\n那我以這一個案子我們來看一下交通部對於這個邊坡定性分級我們所做的一些時間表的我們把它整理一下108年的10月我們定義它叫做C級\n到了111年的10月叫D級那換言之108年到111年中間我不知道是因為依規定不用查還是說他都是C級因為這個是就我能找到的資料111年11月交通委員會做了一個臨時提案這個要總體檢但是該段並沒有被納入沒有被納入那112年\n他是第幾總體檢報告發布他是第幾換言之我認為你們可能是根據因為該段未納入所以可能這個第幾是根據111年的10月所做的分類到了112年6月也就是這個5月到6月就是總體檢報告一個月後\n我們這個地方從D級也就是最安全等級一下子跳到A級就變成它是最危險等級然後呢同一年的10月也就是6月到10月這短短的4個月的時間它又變成C級那有可能是因為工程我猜啦可能有可能是一個在興建中一個工程已經完成所以它又變成了C級\n好那當然6月就發生了這個邊坡攤限的這個情形好那我想請問次長就是說我幫你做這個時間序的分類一直在說明交通部對於我們定性分類完之後的ABCD我們到底是他從A變B他的上下移動就是他的分級的變動他依據什麼準則\n我跟委員報告委員剛才在前面的那一章裡面當然有描述各種狀況這叫做定性的一個分析但是在這個我們另外還有一個更細緻的一個分類裡頭即便是ABCD級以後\n他還是會針對這個雨量的天候的氣象的問題雨量啦颱風啦地震啊等等的或坍塌的情形或有什麼自災等等他會去調整他的一個等級所以在這裡頭你就可以看得到112年他為什麼會變成\n我想請教就是\n因為他是這個是一個個案是我想要請教的問題在於說交通部這個所謂的定性分級他是多久檢查多久\n公告一次也就是說你公告一定是有經過一個體檢或者經過一個什麼事件所以你才會去更動這個公告我跟委員報告有幾個面向剛才我講的說那種天候影響那是立即平常他會有巡檢巡查然後巡查以後然後他也會有定期的檢查\n那如果檢測完以後發現他是有一些不安全的徵兆他就會做一些調整所以呢所以他是定期巡查還是不定期巡查?他是定期我剛才講分兩塊啦就是天災那個叫做特別的臨時的特別的檢查那是不定期的那定期的就是有巡檢就像我講多久定期\n一週要去做巡啦然後一年要去做檢測啦等等的然後他還有有些地方會有監測的儀器他監測監控的結果發現他有不安全的徵兆等等的所以剛才講了多久來他其實是滾動啦依照這樣的一個情形由各段這種方式來做滾動的一個檢討\n對我的意思就是說我光這個分級裡面我就沒有辦法很明白的告訴大家第一個這個是檢查基本上如果沒有特別事情發生定期一次多久定期一次所以叫你說你定期檢查一結束就像這個人的體檢報告每個每一年你都做一次體檢那你體檢的時間假設都是11月所以你公告的時間這個人健不健康你可能是12月公告\n所以民眾只要知道我今年我會經過的路段比如說我上班會經過路段我要出去旅遊我在山裡面可能有邊坡那我可以在交通部網站裡面快速去查得這個去年的檢查報告是怎麼樣所以換言之我的意思是說交通部對於定期檢查時間因為你是定期嘛換言之你是一個月內完成所有公路段的體檢\n然後體檢完之後隔一個月你就公告這個讓大家一目瞭然說欸這件事情他是經過交通部每一年他都有去那第二個那可能是不定期比如說我不知道什麼時候會豪雨嘛我也不知道什麼時候會地震可能豪雨地震之後那我們可能會不定期的去檢查所以也有可能路段從這個D變成A\n你要隨時注意喔因為在地震跟豪雨過後我可能會隨時有機動性的變動這樣的查核清楚一目了然清清楚楚明明白白市長這樣可不可以做得到我想我跟委員報告一下現在所有的邊坡它都有一個排面排面上會去告訴大家它現在這個等級是什麼等級\n那其實我覺得公務局應該會對每一個邊坡或每一個路段他公告出來的他都有他一個檢測或巡檢的一個類似像紀錄都會在那裡頭我覺得我們可以看公務局說不定有了沒有的話可以把這樣的東西建立起來\n在那樣的一個牌面上其實只要有一個QR Code民眾掃一下就可以看到清楚的履歷他做一些什麼時候檢查什麼時候做一些改變請問要去哪裡找到這個牌子這個牌子在現在所有的邊坡上都看得到我的瞭解甚至有可能一個邊坡是兩公里我不就要去那個邊坡巡查看那台牌子在哪裡應該是你經過都會看到我的意思是說這是我們都講到AI\n我們都講到AI啦AI叫你說喔是因為我說這個路端安全嘛那AI直接要告訴我說欸老闆現在你走過這公路局說這是低很安全的我都還沒有講AI我只是說可不可以讓大家很因為你都已經做了嘛我要強調的就是說\n我們政府有在做事情我們就要講給大家知道有一個制度立法院委員要監督才會清楚清清楚楚所以是不是意外它其實在於說我們有沒有按照SOP做如果公務同仁法令的規定就是這樣子我們大家都按照SOP做做完之後不幸的它又發生了坍塌這樣叫做意外\n那如果你不照SOP做啊這個叫做人禍因為你就不按照這個既有的規矩做事情啊所以我才會藉著這個事情我沒有責怪你們的意思啦因為我看了這個報告說要責怪你們說實在話我也不知道責怪什麼但是我要檢討的是這個SOP的流程\n讓他清清楚楚讓每一個公路段的工程知道他幾月幾號該做這個事情做好之後我也依規定我能做好我就公告你想知道你也可以很清楚的知道所以你都已經做了你就不怕不用怕嘛不一定要到現場那我就開車你想在一個人性我開車去旅遊我開去基隆看到邊坡我要先找到我等一下要過的時候不知道要安裝沒有我還要去找先找到牌子然後開始掃QR CODE\n掃完之後,這個是低,沒有問題,慢慢開。對,掃到,欸,噢,開到香了,因為這將會不可能會坍塌。這不合人性嘛,這不符合邏輯嘛。所以我才會建議次長,建議交通部,我們按照SOP來做,做完,我就讓大家知道說,我們都有做,每一年都有做。那豪雨過後,地震過後,我們有特別的這個處理,我們就按照這樣處理。次長你覺得我這樣的建議可不可以做得到?\n我想委員的建議首先要說明的就是說同仁應該是各公務段的同仁應該都是有按照我剛才講的那個SOP的程序我沒有說他們沒有按照啦我只是建議說因為你都定期廣告定期那個就大家都清楚嘛\n是,然後接下來我想我們會跟公務局同仁來討論一下如何讓定期檢測各種檢測完的結果讓他透明的公開來除非你有其他顧慮,譬如說這是不能讓不會不會不會有國安問題不可以讓共匪知道\n那你當然不公告嘛我剛才就講說我們相關的ABCD等級我們都有公告在道路的沿線就代表說對這種公告我們是很希望公民公開透明因為我覺得這樣子清清楚楚我們做事情清清楚楚這樣同仁也沒有壓力我都有照顧記者萬一有什麼意外發生大家不會批評因為我都照顧記者這就是意外\n阿不然齁,立法院又要檢討是不是有人禍阿?是不是這樣子?好,好,沒問題\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.889 --> 00:08.451\n謝謝主席請交通部陳次長委員好次長好今天謝謝主席排了基隆公路邊坡的走山類似像這樣的一個事情\n\n00:33.975 --> 00:50.047\n我想對於國人而言每一個人都希望能夠快快樂樂出門平平安安回家我想這個是每一個人的期待那當然我相信有一些事情我們政府\n\n00:50.543 --> 01:14.542\n能夠做的我們就是盡量預防但有一些事情如果它是意外那它就是意外但是我們希望把意外能夠以配合公務機關預算的投入能夠隨著科技的進步加上交通部更積極勇於面對這些相關可能我們把意外把它降到最低\n\n01:15.582 --> 01:43.333\n這個不可能意外叫做零但意外降到最低我想就是國人的期待也是國會在監督交通部裡面非常重要的任務所以我今天就來跟市長探討一下這個我們有關這個邊坡定性這個部裡面有分級我看了一下我們定性分級分了A、B、C、D四個級\n\n01:44.932 --> 02:04.988\n那四個級大概都有定義比如說A級表示這個是最危險的兩年內有災害紀錄且尚未完成復建或明顯不穩定徵兆之邊坡然後一直到D級就是五年內未有災害紀錄且沒有明顯不穩定的徵兆之邊坡所以我們有做了一個處理\n\n02:06.189 --> 02:23.438\n那我以這一個案子我們來看一下交通部對於這個邊坡定性分級我們所做的一些時間表的我們把它整理一下108年的10月我們定義它叫做C級\n\n02:24.724 --> 02:50.848\n到了111年的10月叫D級那換言之108年到111年中間我不知道是因為依規定不用查還是說他都是C級因為這個是就我能找到的資料111年11月交通委員會做了一個臨時提案這個要總體檢但是該段並沒有被納入沒有被納入那112年\n\n02:54.349 --> 03:14.368\n他是第幾總體檢報告發布他是第幾換言之我認為你們可能是根據因為該段未納入所以可能這個第幾是根據111年的10月所做的分類到了112年6月也就是這個5月到6月就是總體檢報告一個月後\n\n03:16.926 --> 03:41.836\n我們這個地方從D級也就是最安全等級一下子跳到A級就變成它是最危險等級然後呢同一年的10月也就是6月到10月這短短的4個月的時間它又變成C級那有可能是因為工程我猜啦可能有可能是一個在興建中一個工程已經完成所以它又變成了C級\n\n03:43.015 --> 04:09.779\n好那當然6月就發生了這個邊坡攤限的這個情形好那我想請問次長就是說我幫你做這個時間序的分類一直在說明交通部對於我們定性分類完之後的ABCD我們到底是他從A變B他的上下移動就是他的分級的變動他依據什麼準則\n\n04:13.862 --> 04:32.692\n我跟委員報告委員剛才在前面的那一章裡面當然有描述各種狀況這叫做定性的一個分析但是在這個我們另外還有一個更細緻的一個分類裡頭即便是ABCD級以後\n\n04:33.152 --> 04:50.754\n他還是會針對這個雨量的天候的氣象的問題雨量啦颱風啦地震啊等等的或坍塌的情形或有什麼自災等等他會去調整他的一個等級所以在這裡頭你就可以看得到112年他為什麼會變成\n\n04:52.296 --> 04:52.776\n我想請教就是\n\n05:21.667 --> 05:31.364\n因為他是這個是一個個案是我想要請教的問題在於說交通部這個所謂的定性分級他是多久檢查多久\n\n05:32.438 --> 05:54.067\n公告一次也就是說你公告一定是有經過一個體檢或者經過一個什麼事件所以你才會去更動這個公告我跟委員報告有幾個面向剛才我講的說那種天候影響那是立即平常他會有巡檢巡查然後巡查以後然後他也會有定期的檢查\n\n05:54.967 --> 06:15.624\n那如果檢測完以後發現他是有一些不安全的徵兆他就會做一些調整所以呢所以他是定期巡查還是不定期巡查?他是定期我剛才講分兩塊啦就是天災那個叫做特別的臨時的特別的檢查那是不定期的那定期的就是有巡檢就像我講多久定期\n\n06:17.045 --> 06:37.432\n一週要去做巡啦然後一年要去做檢測啦等等的然後他還有有些地方會有監測的儀器他監測監控的結果發現他有不安全的徵兆等等的所以剛才講了多久來他其實是滾動啦依照這樣的一個情形由各段這種方式來做滾動的一個檢討\n\n06:39.212 --> 07:05.868\n對我的意思就是說我光這個分級裡面我就沒有辦法很明白的告訴大家第一個這個是檢查基本上如果沒有特別事情發生定期一次多久定期一次所以叫你說你定期檢查一結束就像這個人的體檢報告每個每一年你都做一次體檢那你體檢的時間假設都是11月所以你公告的時間這個人健不健康你可能是12月公告\n\n07:06.806 --> 07:30.797\n所以民眾只要知道我今年我會經過的路段比如說我上班會經過路段我要出去旅遊我在山裡面可能有邊坡那我可以在交通部網站裡面快速去查得這個去年的檢查報告是怎麼樣所以換言之我的意思是說交通部對於定期檢查時間因為你是定期嘛換言之你是一個月內完成所有公路段的體檢\n\n07:32.037 --> 07:53.793\n然後體檢完之後隔一個月你就公告這個讓大家一目瞭然說欸這件事情他是經過交通部每一年他都有去那第二個那可能是不定期比如說我不知道什麼時候會豪雨嘛我也不知道什麼時候會地震可能豪雨地震之後那我們可能會不定期的去檢查所以也有可能路段從這個D變成A\n\n07:57.296 --> 08:21.470\n你要隨時注意喔因為在地震跟豪雨過後我可能會隨時有機動性的變動這樣的查核清楚一目了然清清楚楚明明白白市長這樣可不可以做得到我想我跟委員報告一下現在所有的邊坡它都有一個排面排面上會去告訴大家它現在這個等級是什麼等級\n\n08:22.190 --> 08:41.310\n那其實我覺得公務局應該會對每一個邊坡或每一個路段他公告出來的他都有他一個檢測或巡檢的一個類似像紀錄都會在那裡頭我覺得我們可以看公務局說不定有了沒有的話可以把這樣的東西建立起來\n\n08:42.050 --> 09:06.754\n在那樣的一個牌面上其實只要有一個QRCode民眾掃一下就可以看到清楚的履歷他做一些什麼時候檢查什麼時候做一些改變請問要去哪裡找到這個牌子這個牌子在現在所有的邊坡上都看得到我的瞭解甚至有可能一個邊坡是兩公里我不就要去那個邊坡巡查看那台牌子在哪裡應該是你經過都會看到我的意思是說這是我們都講到AI\n\n09:11.297 --> 09:31.698\n我們都講到AI啦AI叫你說喔是因為我說這個路端安全嘛那AI直接要告訴我說欸老闆現在你走過這公路局說這是低很安全的我都還沒有講AI我只是說可不可以讓大家很因為你都已經做了嘛我要強調的就是說\n\n09:32.850 --> 09:58.419\n我們政府有在做事情我們就要講給大家知道有一個制度立法院委員要監督才會清楚清清楚楚所以是不是意外它其實在於說我們有沒有按照SOP做如果公務同仁法令的規定就是這樣子我們大家都按照SOP做做完之後不幸的它又發生了坍塌這樣叫做意外\n\n09:59.520 --> 10:17.738\n那如果你不照SOP做啊這個叫做人禍因為你就不按照這個既有的規矩做事情啊所以我才會藉著這個事情我沒有責怪你們的意思啦因為我看了這個報告說要責怪你們說實在話我也不知道責怪什麼但是我要檢討的是這個SOP的流程\n\n10:18.338 --> 10:46.065\n讓他清清楚楚讓每一個公路段的工程知道他幾月幾號該做這個事情做好之後我也依規定我能做好我就公告你想知道你也可以很清楚的知道所以你都已經做了你就不怕不用怕嘛不一定要到現場那我就開車你想在一個人性我開車去旅遊我開去基隆看到邊坡我要先找到我等一下要過的時候不知道要安裝沒有我還要去找先找到牌子然後開始掃QRCODE\n\n10:47.265 --> 11:14.490\n掃完之後,這個是低,沒有問題,慢慢開。對,掃到,欸,噢,開到香了,因為這將會不可能會坍塌。這不合人性嘛,這不符合邏輯嘛。所以我才會建議次長,建議交通部,我們按照SOP來做,做完,我就讓大家知道說,我們都有做,每一年都有做。那豪雨過後,地震過後,我們有特別的這個處理,我們就按照這樣處理。次長你覺得我這樣的建議可不可以做得到?\n\n11:14.790 --> 11:30.784\n我想委員的建議首先要說明的就是說同仁應該是各公務段的同仁應該都是有按照我剛才講的那個SOP的程序我沒有說他們沒有按照啦我只是建議說因為你都定期廣告定期那個就大家都清楚嘛\n\n11:31.215 --> 11:49.827\n是,然後接下來我想我們會跟公務局同仁來討論一下如何讓定期檢測各種檢測完的結果讓他透明的公開來除非你有其他顧慮,譬如說這是不能讓不會不會不會有國安問題不可以讓共匪知道\n\n11:50.487 --> 12:14.314\n那你當然不公告嘛我剛才就講說我們相關的ABCD等級我們都有公告在道路的沿線就代表說對這種公告我們是很希望公民公開透明因為我覺得這樣子清清楚楚我們做事情清清楚楚這樣同仁也沒有壓力我都有照顧記者萬一有什麼意外發生大家不會批評因為我都照顧記者這就是意外\n\n12:17.515 --> 12:21.547\n阿不然齁,立法院又要檢討是不是有人禍阿?是不是這樣子?好,好,沒問題\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.889,"end":8.451,"text":"謝謝主席請交通部陳次長委員好次長好今天謝謝主席排了基隆公路邊坡的走山類似像這樣的一個事情"},{"start":33.975,"end":50.047,"text":"我想對於國人而言每一個人都希望能夠快快樂樂出門平平安安回家我想這個是每一個人的期待那當然我相信有一些事情我們政府"},{"start":50.543,"end":74.542,"text":"能夠做的我們就是盡量預防但有一些事情如果它是意外那它就是意外但是我們希望把意外能夠以配合公務機關預算的投入能夠隨著科技的進步加上交通部更積極勇於面對這些相關可能我們把意外把它降到最低"},{"start":75.582,"end":103.333,"text":"這個不可能意外叫做零但意外降到最低我想就是國人的期待也是國會在監督交通部裡面非常重要的任務所以我今天就來跟市長探討一下這個我們有關這個邊坡定性這個部裡面有分級我看了一下我們定性分級分了A、B、C、D四個級"},{"start":104.932,"end":124.988,"text":"那四個級大概都有定義比如說A級表示這個是最危險的兩年內有災害紀錄且尚未完成復建或明顯不穩定徵兆之邊坡然後一直到D級就是五年內未有災害紀錄且沒有明顯不穩定的徵兆之邊坡所以我們有做了一個處理"},{"start":126.189,"end":143.438,"text":"那我以這一個案子我們來看一下交通部對於這個邊坡定性分級我們所做的一些時間表的我們把它整理一下108年的10月我們定義它叫做C級"},{"start":144.724,"end":170.848,"text":"到了111年的10月叫D級那換言之108年到111年中間我不知道是因為依規定不用查還是說他都是C級因為這個是就我能找到的資料111年11月交通委員會做了一個臨時提案這個要總體檢但是該段並沒有被納入沒有被納入那112年"},{"start":174.349,"end":194.368,"text":"他是第幾總體檢報告發布他是第幾換言之我認為你們可能是根據因為該段未納入所以可能這個第幾是根據111年的10月所做的分類到了112年6月也就是這個5月到6月就是總體檢報告一個月後"},{"start":196.926,"end":221.836,"text":"我們這個地方從D級也就是最安全等級一下子跳到A級就變成它是最危險等級然後呢同一年的10月也就是6月到10月這短短的4個月的時間它又變成C級那有可能是因為工程我猜啦可能有可能是一個在興建中一個工程已經完成所以它又變成了C級"},{"start":223.015,"end":249.779,"text":"好那當然6月就發生了這個邊坡攤限的這個情形好那我想請問次長就是說我幫你做這個時間序的分類一直在說明交通部對於我們定性分類完之後的ABCD我們到底是他從A變B他的上下移動就是他的分級的變動他依據什麼準則"},{"start":253.862,"end":272.692,"text":"我跟委員報告委員剛才在前面的那一章裡面當然有描述各種狀況這叫做定性的一個分析但是在這個我們另外還有一個更細緻的一個分類裡頭即便是ABCD級以後"},{"start":273.152,"end":290.754,"text":"他還是會針對這個雨量的天候的氣象的問題雨量啦颱風啦地震啊等等的或坍塌的情形或有什麼自災等等他會去調整他的一個等級所以在這裡頭你就可以看得到112年他為什麼會變成"},{"start":292.296,"end":292.776,"text":"我想請教就是"},{"start":321.667,"end":331.364,"text":"因為他是這個是一個個案是我想要請教的問題在於說交通部這個所謂的定性分級他是多久檢查多久"},{"start":332.438,"end":354.067,"text":"公告一次也就是說你公告一定是有經過一個體檢或者經過一個什麼事件所以你才會去更動這個公告我跟委員報告有幾個面向剛才我講的說那種天候影響那是立即平常他會有巡檢巡查然後巡查以後然後他也會有定期的檢查"},{"start":354.967,"end":375.624,"text":"那如果檢測完以後發現他是有一些不安全的徵兆他就會做一些調整所以呢所以他是定期巡查還是不定期巡查?他是定期我剛才講分兩塊啦就是天災那個叫做特別的臨時的特別的檢查那是不定期的那定期的就是有巡檢就像我講多久定期"},{"start":377.045,"end":397.432,"text":"一週要去做巡啦然後一年要去做檢測啦等等的然後他還有有些地方會有監測的儀器他監測監控的結果發現他有不安全的徵兆等等的所以剛才講了多久來他其實是滾動啦依照這樣的一個情形由各段這種方式來做滾動的一個檢討"},{"start":399.212,"end":425.868,"text":"對我的意思就是說我光這個分級裡面我就沒有辦法很明白的告訴大家第一個這個是檢查基本上如果沒有特別事情發生定期一次多久定期一次所以叫你說你定期檢查一結束就像這個人的體檢報告每個每一年你都做一次體檢那你體檢的時間假設都是11月所以你公告的時間這個人健不健康你可能是12月公告"},{"start":426.806,"end":450.797,"text":"所以民眾只要知道我今年我會經過的路段比如說我上班會經過路段我要出去旅遊我在山裡面可能有邊坡那我可以在交通部網站裡面快速去查得這個去年的檢查報告是怎麼樣所以換言之我的意思是說交通部對於定期檢查時間因為你是定期嘛換言之你是一個月內完成所有公路段的體檢"},{"start":452.037,"end":473.793,"text":"然後體檢完之後隔一個月你就公告這個讓大家一目瞭然說欸這件事情他是經過交通部每一年他都有去那第二個那可能是不定期比如說我不知道什麼時候會豪雨嘛我也不知道什麼時候會地震可能豪雨地震之後那我們可能會不定期的去檢查所以也有可能路段從這個D變成A"},{"start":477.296,"end":501.47,"text":"你要隨時注意喔因為在地震跟豪雨過後我可能會隨時有機動性的變動這樣的查核清楚一目了然清清楚楚明明白白市長這樣可不可以做得到我想我跟委員報告一下現在所有的邊坡它都有一個排面排面上會去告訴大家它現在這個等級是什麼等級"},{"start":502.19,"end":521.31,"text":"那其實我覺得公務局應該會對每一個邊坡或每一個路段他公告出來的他都有他一個檢測或巡檢的一個類似像紀錄都會在那裡頭我覺得我們可以看公務局說不定有了沒有的話可以把這樣的東西建立起來"},{"start":522.05,"end":546.754,"text":"在那樣的一個牌面上其實只要有一個QR Code民眾掃一下就可以看到清楚的履歷他做一些什麼時候檢查什麼時候做一些改變請問要去哪裡找到這個牌子這個牌子在現在所有的邊坡上都看得到我的瞭解甚至有可能一個邊坡是兩公里我不就要去那個邊坡巡查看那台牌子在哪裡應該是你經過都會看到我的意思是說這是我們都講到AI"},{"start":551.297,"end":571.698,"text":"我們都講到AI啦AI叫你說喔是因為我說這個路端安全嘛那AI直接要告訴我說欸老闆現在你走過這公路局說這是低很安全的我都還沒有講AI我只是說可不可以讓大家很因為你都已經做了嘛我要強調的就是說"},{"start":572.85,"end":598.419,"text":"我們政府有在做事情我們就要講給大家知道有一個制度立法院委員要監督才會清楚清清楚楚所以是不是意外它其實在於說我們有沒有按照SOP做如果公務同仁法令的規定就是這樣子我們大家都按照SOP做做完之後不幸的它又發生了坍塌這樣叫做意外"},{"start":599.52,"end":617.738,"text":"那如果你不照SOP做啊這個叫做人禍因為你就不按照這個既有的規矩做事情啊所以我才會藉著這個事情我沒有責怪你們的意思啦因為我看了這個報告說要責怪你們說實在話我也不知道責怪什麼但是我要檢討的是這個SOP的流程"},{"start":618.338,"end":646.065,"text":"讓他清清楚楚讓每一個公路段的工程知道他幾月幾號該做這個事情做好之後我也依規定我能做好我就公告你想知道你也可以很清楚的知道所以你都已經做了你就不怕不用怕嘛不一定要到現場那我就開車你想在一個人性我開車去旅遊我開去基隆看到邊坡我要先找到我等一下要過的時候不知道要安裝沒有我還要去找先找到牌子然後開始掃QR CODE"},{"start":647.265,"end":674.49,"text":"掃完之後,這個是低,沒有問題,慢慢開。對,掃到,欸,噢,開到香了,因為這將會不可能會坍塌。這不合人性嘛,這不符合邏輯嘛。所以我才會建議次長,建議交通部,我們按照SOP來做,做完,我就讓大家知道說,我們都有做,每一年都有做。那豪雨過後,地震過後,我們有特別的這個處理,我們就按照這樣處理。次長你覺得我這樣的建議可不可以做得到?"},{"start":674.79,"end":690.784,"text":"我想委員的建議首先要說明的就是說同仁應該是各公務段的同仁應該都是有按照我剛才講的那個SOP的程序我沒有說他們沒有按照啦我只是建議說因為你都定期廣告定期那個就大家都清楚嘛"},{"start":691.215,"end":709.827,"text":"是,然後接下來我想我們會跟公務局同仁來討論一下如何讓定期檢測各種檢測完的結果讓他透明的公開來除非你有其他顧慮,譬如說這是不能讓不會不會不會有國安問題不可以讓共匪知道"},{"start":710.487,"end":734.314,"text":"那你當然不公告嘛我剛才就講說我們相關的ABCD等級我們都有公告在道路的沿線就代表說對這種公告我們是很希望公民公開透明因為我覺得這樣子清清楚楚我們做事情清清楚楚這樣同仁也沒有壓力我都有照顧記者萬一有什麼意外發生大家不會批評因為我都照顧記者這就是意外"},{"start":737.515,"end":741.547,"text":"阿不然齁,立法院又要檢討是不是有人禍阿?是不是這樣子?好,好,沒問題"}]}}}}