{"id":153750,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153750","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5c21108314a9c11e6b42b94709b0a08048d38369fa36eb79faf8d720157a301b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:46:13 - 11:55:34","影片長度":"00:09:21","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:46:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:55:34+08:00","duration":561,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":773,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時46分）謝謝主席。我想先請交通部的陳次長、鐵道局副局長，還有高鐵的總經理。"],["主席：請陳次長、鐵道局呂副局長，還有高鐵的馮總經理。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長好。我想先請教鐵道局，因為之前高鐵發生列車長規避了酒測還上車執行，我想請問一下，到目前為止有沒有任何的懲處？現在是總經理，是嗎？"],["鄭總經理光遠：是。跟委員報告，目前是有懲處了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，怎麼樣懲處？"],["鄭總經理光遠：關於違規的人，就是列車長跟督導都有做一些懲處。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是你們內部懲處。"],["鄭總經理光遠：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問鐵道局有做懲處嗎？"],["呂副局長新喜：我們會依鐵路法做裁罰。"],["王委員鴻薇：還沒有做裁罰？"],["呂副局長新喜：對。現在我們正在……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，裁罰要怎麼樣裁罰法？"],["呂副局長新喜：就是按照鐵路法規定，他沒有依規定作酒測，會裁罰。"],["王委員鴻薇：到目前為止沒有做裁罰。","我要講的是，大家可以看到，去年年底的時候，台鐵也一樣發生了一些相關的缺失，其中台鐵沒有落實酒測的部分，裁罰60萬元，這是鐵道局做的裁罰。但是高鐵的部分，到目前為止，鐵道局還沒有做裁罰。所以我要講的是，台鐵、高鐵的管理一樣重要，如果是同樣的狀況，不應該有兩套標準，對不對？"],["呂副局長新喜：是，適用標準一樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，請鄭總經理再多做說明一下，你們裡面的懲處是到什麼樣的層級？還是只有這個列車長，跟沒有幫他做酒測的人。"],["鄭總經理光遠：我們除了當事人有所懲處以外，督導的主管也做了懲處。"],["王委員鴻薇：督導的主管也做懲處？"],["鄭總經理光遠：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：時間暫停一下，我再請運安會的主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：同樣，次長也一起聽。之前包含我和游顥委員，我們都提到高鐵最近其實出現了一些重大的工安事件，最主要的就是應該依照規定作業，按照SOP必須要斷電沒有斷電，造成了比如行駛中的車輛跑到隧道裡突然因為停電而停駛；又或者因為沒有斷電，而造成施工中的人員受傷，還好沒有人命危險。這些是連續發生，從4月9日到5月11日，短短的一個多月之內連續發生兩件。我想請問，勞動部和地方的勞動局會介入調查，當然高鐵也應該做自己的行政調查，我想請問，這些工安事件同時會影響運輸安全的部分，運安會查不查、罰不罰？"],["林主任委員信得：這個案子，他們是有通報啦，但是沒有達到立案的標準。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們運安會沒有立案，為什麼？"],["林主任委員信得：因為根據重大運輸事故之範圍……"],["王委員鴻薇：不重要？"],["林主任委員信得：不是不重要，因為它不在調查範圍裡面。"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼不在調查範圍裡面？"],["林主任委員信得：重大運輸事故調查範圍裡面有幾個規定。"],["王委員鴻薇：一定要出事了才要調查，是嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：它有一定的criteria，一定的標準。"],["王委員鴻薇：我要特別提到，就是不要等到出事。其實我們一直在盯台灣高鐵相關的這些事件，我們會希望能夠未雨綢繆，而不要等到發生事故，然後大家才在做事後的追究、處罰。所以現在連續發生，就是應該要未雨綢繆。","另外，我請教交通部次長，交通部是台灣高鐵的第一大股東嘛，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：那你知不知道高鐵最近改了公司章程，對於董事長退職可以給予退職金。所以，如果按照現在江耀宗董事長他做8年，算起來他起碼可以拿到560萬元的退職金。在新舊政府即將交接之際，修改公司章程，請問交通部有掌握嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，台高公司相關董事會的處理，交通部是有所了解的，但是原則上我們尊重它公司治理的相關程序。而且這件事情其實是沒有針對性的，是屬於公司組織章程的調整。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有啊，這個做完，當然受惠的第一任董事長就是江耀宗啊！我問你，交通部事前知情嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們有了解董事會裡要討論這樣的議案。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們事先知情、事後同意？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們尊重他們公司治理的結果。"],["王委員鴻薇：很尊重？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：很尊重，那其他公司是不是也可以同樣如法泡製？大家都改一下公司章程，因為新政府上來，這些相關的公營事業的董事長甚至總經理，可能都會有換人的狀況，趕快未雨綢繆。還是台灣高鐵比較聰明，趕快來為自己的董事長量身訂做，讓他可以領560萬元的退職金。通通可以嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告，每一家公司的營運情形也都不一樣，所以我剛才會說會做這樣的處理跟調整，是要經過公司董事會，而且是公司治理，在大家共同……"],["王委員鴻薇：你左一句公司治理，右一句公司治理，你們就是最大股東啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：最大股東是要去監督、了解，但是在整個營運上，我覺得還是要尊重公司治理的原則。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得這件事情，當然有關董事長、總經理，尤其董事長的退職金，不是不可以討論，但是在新舊政府交接的時候，去弄一個這樣的組織章程，難免瓜田李下，難免會被人家質疑說這是自肥條款！如果今天交通部可以放任這樣的話，其他的相關公司，可能經濟部下面的公司大家都趕快做啊！因為也不曉得哪一天我就會被換掉，所以就趕快來通過這些自肥條款。","此例一開，大家可能都這樣做，我覺得這是沒有體制的，交通部如果可以讓台灣高鐵這樣做，其實是並不合理的事情。而且你不能用左一句公司治理、右一句公司治理，今天交通部你們都同意，按照這樣講，你事先就同意，那麼交通部所有相關的事業單位大家都可以來做，我覺得這才合理啊！怎麼可以只有一家公司這樣做呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：還是要跟委員報告，每一家公司的營運情形跟狀況是不一樣的，所以我剛才會一再的強調，其實每一家公司都有獨立的公司人格，公司治理在每一家公司都是非常重要的，而且是不同看待的。"],["王委員鴻薇：反正你現在講半天，就是你同意它這樣子，所以我也建議大家全部都如法泡製，大家趕快來做一做。他不是按照什麼的規定，就是你只要做一年，就可以領兩個月，做半年也可以領一個月，用這種方式，真的是自肥條款，好不好？其實我覺得對社會觀感並不好。"],["陳次長彥伯：我想委員的意見可以留供台高公司參考，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","現在請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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\"start\": 558.823, \"end\": 558.963, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 558.963, \"end\": 559.243, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 559.243, \"end\": 559.263, \"score\": 0.63}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,738 --> 00:00:20,244\n好謝謝主席我想先請我們交通部的陳次長好陳次長鐵道局鐵道局李副局長李副局長來鐵道局還有高鐵的總經理好高鐵馮總經理來我也好次長好我想先請教這個\n\n2\n00:00:33,873 --> 00:00:35,815\n總經理是阿?是,跟委員報告是有懲處了怎麼樣懲處?\n\n3\n00:01:03,958 --> 00:01:12,704\n這個有關於違規的人就是在列車長跟督導的部分都有做一些懲處這是你們內部懲處?\n\n4\n00:01:12,704 --> 00:01:25,834\n是請問鐵道局有做懲處嗎?我們會依鐵路法現在會做那個裁罰還沒有做裁罰?對,現在我們真的那裁罰要怎麼樣裁罰法?\n\n5\n00:01:28,683 --> 00:01:34,604\n就是按照鐵路法那個他那個沒有按規定去做這些90老會去裁判嗯\n\n6\n00:01:35,902 --> 00:02:02,788\n到目前為止沒有做裁罰我要講的是我要講的是大家可以看到在這個甚至去年去年底的時候台鐵也一樣發生了一些相關的缺失其中台鐵沒有落實酒測的部分裁罰60萬元這是鐵道局做的裁罰但是高鐵的部分到目前為止鐵道局還沒有做裁罰所以我要講的是\n\n7\n00:02:06,291 --> 00:02:27,310\n台鐵、高鐵他們的這個管理一樣重要。如果是同樣的狀況的話,不應該有兩套標準,對不對?是,是標準一樣。好,那另外請鄭總經理再多做說明一下,你們裡面的懲處是到什麼樣的層級?\n\n8\n00:02:30,803 --> 00:02:54,396\n還是就是只有這個列車長跟還有幫他去那個什麼就是沒有幫他做酒測的我們是除了這個當事人有做懲處以外也到督導的這個主管也做了一些懲處督導的主管也做懲處是好那時間暫停一下我再請那個運安會的主委好來林主委\n\n9\n00:02:59,407 --> 00:03:24,107\n市長也一起聽因為我之前就包含我跟油耗委員我們都提到因為高鐵最近其實出現了一些重大的一些公安事件那最主要的就是應該依照規定作業按照SOP的一些他必須要斷電的沒有斷電而造成了比如說行駛中的車輛\n\n10\n00:03:25,248 --> 00:03:39,264\n就跑到隧道裡面就突然的停就是突然的因為停電而停止那又或者呢因為沒有斷電而造成在施工中的人員受傷還好沒有人命的這個危險\n\n11\n00:03:40,285 --> 00:04:09,074\n那這個是連續發生他是從4月9號到5月11號短短的一個多月之內連續發生兩件那我想請問一下這個部分勞動部就是而且地方的勞動局會介入調查那當然高鐵也應該做他自己的行政調查我想請問一下這些公安事件他同時的會影響這個他的運輸安全的部分那麼運安會\n\n12\n00:04:10,114 --> 00:04:37,060\n查不查?法不法?這個案子他們是有通報啦但是沒有達到立案的標準所以你們院會沒有立案為什麼?因為根據那個重大運輸事務不重要不是不重要因為他不在調查範圍裡面為什麼不在調查範圍裡面?重大運輸事務調查範圍裡面他有幾個規定一定要出事了出事了才要調查是嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:42,493 --> 00:05:00,063\n我要特別提到齁就是不要等到出事其實我們一直在盯那個台灣高鐵這些相關的這個事件其實我們會希望能夠未雨綢繆而不要等到發生事故的時候然後呢大家才在做事後的這個來追究處罰\n\n14\n00:05:01,324 --> 00:05:16,054\n所以現在連續發聲就是應該要去那個未雨綢繆另外我請教一下我們的交通部次長次長你知不知道因為我們交通部是臺灣高鐵的第一大股東對不對\n\n15\n00:05:18,115 --> 00:05:40,810\n那你知不知道這個高鐵最近改了他的這個公司章程然後對這個董事長退職可以給予這個退職金所以呢他算起來如果按照我們現在的董事長江耀宗董事長他做8年嘛那他起碼可以拿到560萬的退職金\n\n16\n00:05:43,291 --> 00:05:52,806\n在這個即將就是在新舊政府交接之際然後改這個公司章程請問一下交通部有掌握嗎\n\n17\n00:05:54,702 --> 00:06:23,762\n我想跟委員報告臺高公司的相關的一個董事會的處理交通部是有所了解的但是原則上我們尊重他公事治理的相關的一個程序而且他在他這一件事情其實是沒有針對性的他是屬於公司的組織上層的一個條件沒有啊你這個做完當然第一任就是董事長就是江耀宗啊所以我問你就是你們交通部事前知情嗎\n\n18\n00:06:25,623 --> 00:06:33,289\n我們有瞭解相關的這個董事會裡頭要討論這樣的一個議案所以你們事前知情事後同意\n\n19\n00:06:34,128 --> 00:07:00,264\n我們尊重他們那個公司自己的結果很尊重那其他的公司是不是也可以同樣如法炮製大家都改一下公司章程因為這個新政府上來很可能這些相關的公營事業可能這些董事長甚至總經理可能都會有換人的狀況趕快未雨綢繆還是台灣高鐵比較聰明趕快來為自己的董事長來量身定做做一個他可以領這個560萬退資金\n\n20\n00:07:03,446 --> 00:07:20,482\n我想跟委員報告每一家公司的這個營運的情形也都不一樣所以我剛才才會講到說會做這樣的一個處理跟調整是要經過公司董事會而且是公司治理的這樣的一個在大家共同你左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你們就是最大股東啊\n\n21\n00:07:21,823 --> 00:07:48,208\n最大股東是要去監督瞭解但是整個營運上我覺得還是要尊重公司自己我覺得這件事情這個當然就是有關於董事長總經理尤其董事長的退資金不是不可以討論但是你在這個時候新舊政府交接的時候去弄一個這樣的組織章程難免瓜田李下難免會被人家質疑說這是自肥條款\n\n22\n00:07:49,588 --> 00:08:06,730\n如果今天交通部可以放任這樣的話那其他的你們相關公司可能以經濟部下面公司大家都趕快做啊因為也不知道哪一天我就會被換掉啊趕快來通過這些自肥條款如果此例一開大家都這樣做\n\n23\n00:08:07,651 --> 00:08:30,923\n所以我覺得這是沒有體制的那我覺得交通部如果可以讓台灣高鐵這樣做其實是並不合理的事情而且你不能用左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你今天交通部你們都同意按照你這樣講你事先就同意那麼下面就是交通部所有的相關的事業單位大家都可以來做我覺得這才合理啊怎麼可以只有一家公司這樣做呢\n\n24\n00:08:32,373 --> 00:08:50,027\n我還是要跟委員報告每一家公司它的營運的情形跟狀況是不一樣的所以說我剛才才會一再的強調其實每一家公司都還有獨立的一個公司的人格所以它公司治理在每一家公司都是非常重要的而且是不同看待的是\n\n25\n00:08:50,694 --> 00:09:19,263\n反正你先講半天就是你同意他這樣子所以我也建議大家全部都如法炮製大家趕快來做一做這邊就是他不是按照什麼欸就是你只要做一年就可以領兩個月做半年也可以領一個月用這種方式嘛這個真的是自肥條款啦好不好這個其實我覺得對社會觀感並不好我想委員的意見可以留台高公司參考謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4738\t20244\t好謝謝主席我想先請我們交通部的陳次長好陳次長鐵道局鐵道局李副局長李副局長來鐵道局還有高鐵的總經理好高鐵馮總經理來我也好次長好我想先請教這個\n33873\t35815\t總經理是阿?是,跟委員報告是有懲處了怎麼樣懲處?\n63958\t72704\t這個有關於違規的人就是在列車長跟督導的部分都有做一些懲處這是你們內部懲處?\n72704\t85834\t是請問鐵道局有做懲處嗎?我們會依鐵路法現在會做那個裁罰還沒有做裁罰?對,現在我們真的那裁罰要怎麼樣裁罰法?\n88683\t94604\t就是按照鐵路法那個他那個沒有按規定去做這些90老會去裁判嗯\n95902\t122788\t到目前為止沒有做裁罰我要講的是我要講的是大家可以看到在這個甚至去年去年底的時候台鐵也一樣發生了一些相關的缺失其中台鐵沒有落實酒測的部分裁罰60萬元這是鐵道局做的裁罰但是高鐵的部分到目前為止鐵道局還沒有做裁罰所以我要講的是\n126291\t147310\t台鐵、高鐵他們的這個管理一樣重要。如果是同樣的狀況的話,不應該有兩套標準,對不對?是,是標準一樣。好,那另外請鄭總經理再多做說明一下,你們裡面的懲處是到什麼樣的層級?\n150803\t174396\t還是就是只有這個列車長跟還有幫他去那個什麼就是沒有幫他做酒測的我們是除了這個當事人有做懲處以外也到督導的這個主管也做了一些懲處督導的主管也做懲處是好那時間暫停一下我再請那個運安會的主委好來林主委\n179407\t204107\t市長也一起聽因為我之前就包含我跟油耗委員我們都提到因為高鐵最近其實出現了一些重大的一些公安事件那最主要的就是應該依照規定作業按照SOP的一些他必須要斷電的沒有斷電而造成了比如說行駛中的車輛\n205248\t219264\t就跑到隧道裡面就突然的停就是突然的因為停電而停止那又或者呢因為沒有斷電而造成在施工中的人員受傷還好沒有人命的這個危險\n220285\t249074\t那這個是連續發生他是從4月9號到5月11號短短的一個多月之內連續發生兩件那我想請問一下這個部分勞動部就是而且地方的勞動局會介入調查那當然高鐵也應該做他自己的行政調查我想請問一下這些公安事件他同時的會影響這個他的運輸安全的部分那麼運安會\n250114\t277060\t查不查?法不法?這個案子他們是有通報啦但是沒有達到立案的標準所以你們院會沒有立案為什麼?因為根據那個重大運輸事務不重要不是不重要因為他不在調查範圍裡面為什麼不在調查範圍裡面?重大運輸事務調查範圍裡面他有幾個規定一定要出事了出事了才要調查是嗎?\n282493\t300063\t我要特別提到齁就是不要等到出事其實我們一直在盯那個台灣高鐵這些相關的這個事件其實我們會希望能夠未雨綢繆而不要等到發生事故的時候然後呢大家才在做事後的這個來追究處罰\n301324\t316054\t所以現在連續發聲就是應該要去那個未雨綢繆另外我請教一下我們的交通部次長次長你知不知道因為我們交通部是臺灣高鐵的第一大股東對不對\n318115\t340810\t那你知不知道這個高鐵最近改了他的這個公司章程然後對這個董事長退職可以給予這個退職金所以呢他算起來如果按照我們現在的董事長江耀宗董事長他做8年嘛那他起碼可以拿到560萬的退職金\n343291\t352806\t在這個即將就是在新舊政府交接之際然後改這個公司章程請問一下交通部有掌握嗎\n354702\t383762\t我想跟委員報告臺高公司的相關的一個董事會的處理交通部是有所了解的但是原則上我們尊重他公事治理的相關的一個程序而且他在他這一件事情其實是沒有針對性的他是屬於公司的組織上層的一個條件沒有啊你這個做完當然第一任就是董事長就是江耀宗啊所以我問你就是你們交通部事前知情嗎\n385623\t393289\t我們有瞭解相關的這個董事會裡頭要討論這樣的一個議案所以你們事前知情事後同意\n394128\t420264\t我們尊重他們那個公司自己的結果很尊重那其他的公司是不是也可以同樣如法炮製大家都改一下公司章程因為這個新政府上來很可能這些相關的公營事業可能這些董事長甚至總經理可能都會有換人的狀況趕快未雨綢繆還是台灣高鐵比較聰明趕快來為自己的董事長來量身定做做一個他可以領這個560萬退資金\n423446\t440482\t我想跟委員報告每一家公司的這個營運的情形也都不一樣所以我剛才才會講到說會做這樣的一個處理跟調整是要經過公司董事會而且是公司治理的這樣的一個在大家共同你左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你們就是最大股東啊\n441823\t468208\t最大股東是要去監督瞭解但是整個營運上我覺得還是要尊重公司自己我覺得這件事情這個當然就是有關於董事長總經理尤其董事長的退資金不是不可以討論但是你在這個時候新舊政府交接的時候去弄一個這樣的組織章程難免瓜田李下難免會被人家質疑說這是自肥條款\n469588\t486730\t如果今天交通部可以放任這樣的話那其他的你們相關公司可能以經濟部下面公司大家都趕快做啊因為也不知道哪一天我就會被換掉啊趕快來通過這些自肥條款如果此例一開大家都這樣做\n487651\t510923\t所以我覺得這是沒有體制的那我覺得交通部如果可以讓台灣高鐵這樣做其實是並不合理的事情而且你不能用左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你今天交通部你們都同意按照你這樣講你事先就同意那麼下面就是交通部所有的相關的事業單位大家都可以來做我覺得這才合理啊怎麼可以只有一家公司這樣做呢\n512373\t530027\t我還是要跟委員報告每一家公司它的營運的情形跟狀況是不一樣的所以說我剛才才會一再的強調其實每一家公司都還有獨立的一個公司的人格所以它公司治理在每一家公司都是非常重要的而且是不同看待的是\n530694\t559263\t反正你先講半天就是你同意他這樣子所以我也建議大家全部都如法炮製大家趕快來做一做這邊就是他不是按照什麼欸就是你只要做一年就可以領兩個月做半年也可以領一個月用這種方式嘛這個真的是自肥條款啦好不好這個其實我覺得對社會觀感並不好我想委員的意見可以留台高公司參考謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我想先請我們交通部的陳次長好陳次長鐵道局鐵道局李副局長李副局長來鐵道局還有高鐵的總經理好高鐵馮總經理來我也好次長好我想先請教這個\n總經理是阿?是,跟委員報告是有懲處了怎麼樣懲處?\n這個有關於違規的人就是在列車長跟督導的部分都有做一些懲處這是你們內部懲處?\n是請問鐵道局有做懲處嗎?我們會依鐵路法現在會做那個裁罰還沒有做裁罰?對,現在我們真的那裁罰要怎麼樣裁罰法?\n就是按照鐵路法那個他那個沒有按規定去做這些90老會去裁判嗯\n到目前為止沒有做裁罰我要講的是我要講的是大家可以看到在這個甚至去年去年底的時候台鐵也一樣發生了一些相關的缺失其中台鐵沒有落實酒測的部分裁罰60萬元這是鐵道局做的裁罰但是高鐵的部分到目前為止鐵道局還沒有做裁罰所以我要講的是\n台鐵、高鐵他們的這個管理一樣重要。如果是同樣的狀況的話,不應該有兩套標準,對不對?是,是標準一樣。好,那另外請鄭總經理再多做說明一下,你們裡面的懲處是到什麼樣的層級?\n還是就是只有這個列車長跟還有幫他去那個什麼就是沒有幫他做酒測的我們是除了這個當事人有做懲處以外也到督導的這個主管也做了一些懲處督導的主管也做懲處是好那時間暫停一下我再請那個運安會的主委好來林主委\n市長也一起聽因為我之前就包含我跟油耗委員我們都提到因為高鐵最近其實出現了一些重大的一些公安事件那最主要的就是應該依照規定作業按照SOP的一些他必須要斷電的沒有斷電而造成了比如說行駛中的車輛\n就跑到隧道裡面就突然的停就是突然的因為停電而停止那又或者呢因為沒有斷電而造成在施工中的人員受傷還好沒有人命的這個危險\n那這個是連續發生他是從4月9號到5月11號短短的一個多月之內連續發生兩件那我想請問一下這個部分勞動部就是而且地方的勞動局會介入調查那當然高鐵也應該做他自己的行政調查我想請問一下這些公安事件他同時的會影響這個他的運輸安全的部分那麼運安會\n查不查?法不法?這個案子他們是有通報啦但是沒有達到立案的標準所以你們院會沒有立案為什麼?因為根據那個重大運輸事務不重要不是不重要因為他不在調查範圍裡面為什麼不在調查範圍裡面?重大運輸事務調查範圍裡面他有幾個規定一定要出事了出事了才要調查是嗎?\n我要特別提到齁就是不要等到出事其實我們一直在盯那個台灣高鐵這些相關的這個事件其實我們會希望能夠未雨綢繆而不要等到發生事故的時候然後呢大家才在做事後的這個來追究處罰\n所以現在連續發聲就是應該要去那個未雨綢繆另外我請教一下我們的交通部次長次長你知不知道因為我們交通部是臺灣高鐵的第一大股東對不對\n那你知不知道這個高鐵最近改了他的這個公司章程然後對這個董事長退職可以給予這個退職金所以呢他算起來如果按照我們現在的董事長江耀宗董事長他做8年嘛那他起碼可以拿到560萬的退職金\n在這個即將就是在新舊政府交接之際然後改這個公司章程請問一下交通部有掌握嗎\n我想跟委員報告臺高公司的相關的一個董事會的處理交通部是有所了解的但是原則上我們尊重他公事治理的相關的一個程序而且他在他這一件事情其實是沒有針對性的他是屬於公司的組織上層的一個條件沒有啊你這個做完當然第一任就是董事長就是江耀宗啊所以我問你就是你們交通部事前知情嗎\n我們有瞭解相關的這個董事會裡頭要討論這樣的一個議案所以你們事前知情事後同意\n我們尊重他們那個公司自己的結果很尊重那其他的公司是不是也可以同樣如法炮製大家都改一下公司章程因為這個新政府上來很可能這些相關的公營事業可能這些董事長甚至總經理可能都會有換人的狀況趕快未雨綢繆還是台灣高鐵比較聰明趕快來為自己的董事長來量身定做做一個他可以領這個560萬退資金\n我想跟委員報告每一家公司的這個營運的情形也都不一樣所以我剛才才會講到說會做這樣的一個處理跟調整是要經過公司董事會而且是公司治理的這樣的一個在大家共同你左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你們就是最大股東啊\n最大股東是要去監督瞭解但是整個營運上我覺得還是要尊重公司自己我覺得這件事情這個當然就是有關於董事長總經理尤其董事長的退資金不是不可以討論但是你在這個時候新舊政府交接的時候去弄一個這樣的組織章程難免瓜田李下難免會被人家質疑說這是自肥條款\n如果今天交通部可以放任這樣的話那其他的你們相關公司可能以經濟部下面公司大家都趕快做啊因為也不知道哪一天我就會被換掉啊趕快來通過這些自肥條款如果此例一開大家都這樣做\n所以我覺得這是沒有體制的那我覺得交通部如果可以讓台灣高鐵這樣做其實是並不合理的事情而且你不能用左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你今天交通部你們都同意按照你這樣講你事先就同意那麼下面就是交通部所有的相關的事業單位大家都可以來做我覺得這才合理啊怎麼可以只有一家公司這樣做呢\n我還是要跟委員報告每一家公司它的營運的情形跟狀況是不一樣的所以說我剛才才會一再的強調其實每一家公司都還有獨立的一個公司的人格所以它公司治理在每一家公司都是非常重要的而且是不同看待的是\n反正你先講半天就是你同意他這樣子所以我也建議大家全部都如法炮製大家趕快來做一做這邊就是他不是按照什麼欸就是你只要做一年就可以領兩個月做半年也可以領一個月用這種方式嘛這個真的是自肥條款啦好不好這個其實我覺得對社會觀感並不好我想委員的意見可以留台高公司參考謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.738 --> 00:20.244\n好謝謝主席我想先請我們交通部的陳次長好陳次長鐵道局鐵道局李副局長李副局長來鐵道局還有高鐵的總經理好高鐵馮總經理來我也好次長好我想先請教這個\n\n00:33.873 --> 00:35.815\n總經理是阿?是,跟委員報告是有懲處了怎麼樣懲處?\n\n01:03.958 --> 01:12.704\n這個有關於違規的人就是在列車長跟督導的部分都有做一些懲處這是你們內部懲處?\n\n01:12.704 --> 01:25.834\n是請問鐵道局有做懲處嗎?我們會依鐵路法現在會做那個裁罰還沒有做裁罰?對,現在我們真的那裁罰要怎麼樣裁罰法?\n\n01:28.683 --> 01:34.604\n就是按照鐵路法那個他那個沒有按規定去做這些90老會去裁判嗯\n\n01:35.902 --> 02:02.788\n到目前為止沒有做裁罰我要講的是我要講的是大家可以看到在這個甚至去年去年底的時候台鐵也一樣發生了一些相關的缺失其中台鐵沒有落實酒測的部分裁罰60萬元這是鐵道局做的裁罰但是高鐵的部分到目前為止鐵道局還沒有做裁罰所以我要講的是\n\n02:06.291 --> 02:27.310\n台鐵、高鐵他們的這個管理一樣重要。如果是同樣的狀況的話,不應該有兩套標準,對不對?是,是標準一樣。好,那另外請鄭總經理再多做說明一下,你們裡面的懲處是到什麼樣的層級?\n\n02:30.803 --> 02:54.396\n還是就是只有這個列車長跟還有幫他去那個什麼就是沒有幫他做酒測的我們是除了這個當事人有做懲處以外也到督導的這個主管也做了一些懲處督導的主管也做懲處是好那時間暫停一下我再請那個運安會的主委好來林主委\n\n02:59.407 --> 03:24.107\n市長也一起聽因為我之前就包含我跟油耗委員我們都提到因為高鐵最近其實出現了一些重大的一些公安事件那最主要的就是應該依照規定作業按照SOP的一些他必須要斷電的沒有斷電而造成了比如說行駛中的車輛\n\n03:25.248 --> 03:39.264\n就跑到隧道裡面就突然的停就是突然的因為停電而停止那又或者呢因為沒有斷電而造成在施工中的人員受傷還好沒有人命的這個危險\n\n03:40.285 --> 04:09.074\n那這個是連續發生他是從4月9號到5月11號短短的一個多月之內連續發生兩件那我想請問一下這個部分勞動部就是而且地方的勞動局會介入調查那當然高鐵也應該做他自己的行政調查我想請問一下這些公安事件他同時的會影響這個他的運輸安全的部分那麼運安會\n\n04:10.114 --> 04:37.060\n查不查?法不法?這個案子他們是有通報啦但是沒有達到立案的標準所以你們院會沒有立案為什麼?因為根據那個重大運輸事務不重要不是不重要因為他不在調查範圍裡面為什麼不在調查範圍裡面?重大運輸事務調查範圍裡面他有幾個規定一定要出事了出事了才要調查是嗎?\n\n04:42.493 --> 05:00.063\n我要特別提到齁就是不要等到出事其實我們一直在盯那個台灣高鐵這些相關的這個事件其實我們會希望能夠未雨綢繆而不要等到發生事故的時候然後呢大家才在做事後的這個來追究處罰\n\n05:01.324 --> 05:16.054\n所以現在連續發聲就是應該要去那個未雨綢繆另外我請教一下我們的交通部次長次長你知不知道因為我們交通部是臺灣高鐵的第一大股東對不對\n\n05:18.115 --> 05:40.810\n那你知不知道這個高鐵最近改了他的這個公司章程然後對這個董事長退職可以給予這個退職金所以呢他算起來如果按照我們現在的董事長江耀宗董事長他做8年嘛那他起碼可以拿到560萬的退職金\n\n05:43.291 --> 05:52.806\n在這個即將就是在新舊政府交接之際然後改這個公司章程請問一下交通部有掌握嗎\n\n05:54.702 --> 06:23.762\n我想跟委員報告臺高公司的相關的一個董事會的處理交通部是有所了解的但是原則上我們尊重他公事治理的相關的一個程序而且他在他這一件事情其實是沒有針對性的他是屬於公司的組織上層的一個條件沒有啊你這個做完當然第一任就是董事長就是江耀宗啊所以我問你就是你們交通部事前知情嗎\n\n06:25.623 --> 06:33.289\n我們有瞭解相關的這個董事會裡頭要討論這樣的一個議案所以你們事前知情事後同意\n\n06:34.128 --> 07:00.264\n我們尊重他們那個公司自己的結果很尊重那其他的公司是不是也可以同樣如法炮製大家都改一下公司章程因為這個新政府上來很可能這些相關的公營事業可能這些董事長甚至總經理可能都會有換人的狀況趕快未雨綢繆還是台灣高鐵比較聰明趕快來為自己的董事長來量身定做做一個他可以領這個560萬退資金\n\n07:03.446 --> 07:20.482\n我想跟委員報告每一家公司的這個營運的情形也都不一樣所以我剛才才會講到說會做這樣的一個處理跟調整是要經過公司董事會而且是公司治理的這樣的一個在大家共同你左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你們就是最大股東啊\n\n07:21.823 --> 07:48.208\n最大股東是要去監督瞭解但是整個營運上我覺得還是要尊重公司自己我覺得這件事情這個當然就是有關於董事長總經理尤其董事長的退資金不是不可以討論但是你在這個時候新舊政府交接的時候去弄一個這樣的組織章程難免瓜田李下難免會被人家質疑說這是自肥條款\n\n07:49.588 --> 08:06.730\n如果今天交通部可以放任這樣的話那其他的你們相關公司可能以經濟部下面公司大家都趕快做啊因為也不知道哪一天我就會被換掉啊趕快來通過這些自肥條款如果此例一開大家都這樣做\n\n08:07.651 --> 08:30.923\n所以我覺得這是沒有體制的那我覺得交通部如果可以讓台灣高鐵這樣做其實是並不合理的事情而且你不能用左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你今天交通部你們都同意按照你這樣講你事先就同意那麼下面就是交通部所有的相關的事業單位大家都可以來做我覺得這才合理啊怎麼可以只有一家公司這樣做呢\n\n08:32.373 --> 08:50.027\n我還是要跟委員報告每一家公司它的營運的情形跟狀況是不一樣的所以說我剛才才會一再的強調其實每一家公司都還有獨立的一個公司的人格所以它公司治理在每一家公司都是非常重要的而且是不同看待的是\n\n08:50.694 --> 09:19.263\n反正你先講半天就是你同意他這樣子所以我也建議大家全部都如法炮製大家趕快來做一做這邊就是他不是按照什麼欸就是你只要做一年就可以領兩個月做半年也可以領一個月用這種方式嘛這個真的是自肥條款啦好不好這個其實我覺得對社會觀感並不好我想委員的意見可以留台高公司參考謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.738,"end":20.244,"text":"好謝謝主席我想先請我們交通部的陳次長好陳次長鐵道局鐵道局李副局長李副局長來鐵道局還有高鐵的總經理好高鐵馮總經理來我也好次長好我想先請教這個"},{"start":33.873,"end":35.815,"text":"總經理是阿?是,跟委員報告是有懲處了怎麼樣懲處?"},{"start":63.958,"end":72.704,"text":"這個有關於違規的人就是在列車長跟督導的部分都有做一些懲處這是你們內部懲處?"},{"start":72.704,"end":85.834,"text":"是請問鐵道局有做懲處嗎?我們會依鐵路法現在會做那個裁罰還沒有做裁罰?對,現在我們真的那裁罰要怎麼樣裁罰法?"},{"start":88.683,"end":94.604,"text":"就是按照鐵路法那個他那個沒有按規定去做這些90老會去裁判嗯"},{"start":95.902,"end":122.788,"text":"到目前為止沒有做裁罰我要講的是我要講的是大家可以看到在這個甚至去年去年底的時候台鐵也一樣發生了一些相關的缺失其中台鐵沒有落實酒測的部分裁罰60萬元這是鐵道局做的裁罰但是高鐵的部分到目前為止鐵道局還沒有做裁罰所以我要講的是"},{"start":126.291,"end":147.31,"text":"台鐵、高鐵他們的這個管理一樣重要。如果是同樣的狀況的話,不應該有兩套標準,對不對?是,是標準一樣。好,那另外請鄭總經理再多做說明一下,你們裡面的懲處是到什麼樣的層級?"},{"start":150.803,"end":174.396,"text":"還是就是只有這個列車長跟還有幫他去那個什麼就是沒有幫他做酒測的我們是除了這個當事人有做懲處以外也到督導的這個主管也做了一些懲處督導的主管也做懲處是好那時間暫停一下我再請那個運安會的主委好來林主委"},{"start":179.407,"end":204.107,"text":"市長也一起聽因為我之前就包含我跟油耗委員我們都提到因為高鐵最近其實出現了一些重大的一些公安事件那最主要的就是應該依照規定作業按照SOP的一些他必須要斷電的沒有斷電而造成了比如說行駛中的車輛"},{"start":205.248,"end":219.264,"text":"就跑到隧道裡面就突然的停就是突然的因為停電而停止那又或者呢因為沒有斷電而造成在施工中的人員受傷還好沒有人命的這個危險"},{"start":220.285,"end":249.074,"text":"那這個是連續發生他是從4月9號到5月11號短短的一個多月之內連續發生兩件那我想請問一下這個部分勞動部就是而且地方的勞動局會介入調查那當然高鐵也應該做他自己的行政調查我想請問一下這些公安事件他同時的會影響這個他的運輸安全的部分那麼運安會"},{"start":250.114,"end":277.06,"text":"查不查?法不法?這個案子他們是有通報啦但是沒有達到立案的標準所以你們院會沒有立案為什麼?因為根據那個重大運輸事務不重要不是不重要因為他不在調查範圍裡面為什麼不在調查範圍裡面?重大運輸事務調查範圍裡面他有幾個規定一定要出事了出事了才要調查是嗎?"},{"start":282.493,"end":300.063,"text":"我要特別提到齁就是不要等到出事其實我們一直在盯那個台灣高鐵這些相關的這個事件其實我們會希望能夠未雨綢繆而不要等到發生事故的時候然後呢大家才在做事後的這個來追究處罰"},{"start":301.324,"end":316.054,"text":"所以現在連續發聲就是應該要去那個未雨綢繆另外我請教一下我們的交通部次長次長你知不知道因為我們交通部是臺灣高鐵的第一大股東對不對"},{"start":318.115,"end":340.81,"text":"那你知不知道這個高鐵最近改了他的這個公司章程然後對這個董事長退職可以給予這個退職金所以呢他算起來如果按照我們現在的董事長江耀宗董事長他做8年嘛那他起碼可以拿到560萬的退職金"},{"start":343.291,"end":352.806,"text":"在這個即將就是在新舊政府交接之際然後改這個公司章程請問一下交通部有掌握嗎"},{"start":354.702,"end":383.762,"text":"我想跟委員報告臺高公司的相關的一個董事會的處理交通部是有所了解的但是原則上我們尊重他公事治理的相關的一個程序而且他在他這一件事情其實是沒有針對性的他是屬於公司的組織上層的一個條件沒有啊你這個做完當然第一任就是董事長就是江耀宗啊所以我問你就是你們交通部事前知情嗎"},{"start":385.623,"end":393.289,"text":"我們有瞭解相關的這個董事會裡頭要討論這樣的一個議案所以你們事前知情事後同意"},{"start":394.128,"end":420.264,"text":"我們尊重他們那個公司自己的結果很尊重那其他的公司是不是也可以同樣如法炮製大家都改一下公司章程因為這個新政府上來很可能這些相關的公營事業可能這些董事長甚至總經理可能都會有換人的狀況趕快未雨綢繆還是台灣高鐵比較聰明趕快來為自己的董事長來量身定做做一個他可以領這個560萬退資金"},{"start":423.446,"end":440.482,"text":"我想跟委員報告每一家公司的這個營運的情形也都不一樣所以我剛才才會講到說會做這樣的一個處理跟調整是要經過公司董事會而且是公司治理的這樣的一個在大家共同你左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你們就是最大股東啊"},{"start":441.823,"end":468.208,"text":"最大股東是要去監督瞭解但是整個營運上我覺得還是要尊重公司自己我覺得這件事情這個當然就是有關於董事長總經理尤其董事長的退資金不是不可以討論但是你在這個時候新舊政府交接的時候去弄一個這樣的組織章程難免瓜田李下難免會被人家質疑說這是自肥條款"},{"start":469.588,"end":486.73,"text":"如果今天交通部可以放任這樣的話那其他的你們相關公司可能以經濟部下面公司大家都趕快做啊因為也不知道哪一天我就會被換掉啊趕快來通過這些自肥條款如果此例一開大家都這樣做"},{"start":487.651,"end":510.923,"text":"所以我覺得這是沒有體制的那我覺得交通部如果可以讓台灣高鐵這樣做其實是並不合理的事情而且你不能用左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你今天交通部你們都同意按照你這樣講你事先就同意那麼下面就是交通部所有的相關的事業單位大家都可以來做我覺得這才合理啊怎麼可以只有一家公司這樣做呢"},{"start":512.373,"end":530.027,"text":"我還是要跟委員報告每一家公司它的營運的情形跟狀況是不一樣的所以說我剛才才會一再的強調其實每一家公司都還有獨立的一個公司的人格所以它公司治理在每一家公司都是非常重要的而且是不同看待的是"},{"start":530.694,"end":559.263,"text":"反正你先講半天就是你同意他這樣子所以我也建議大家全部都如法炮製大家趕快來做一做這邊就是他不是按照什麼欸就是你只要做一年就可以領兩個月做半年也可以領一個月用這種方式嘛這個真的是自肥條款啦好不好這個其實我覺得對社會觀感並不好我想委員的意見可以留台高公司參考謝謝"}]}}}}