{"id":153754,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153754","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d51c0644935bce374079f99d17e212a4188d38369fa36eb79f9b2934fa4db78b885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:13:22 - 12:27:43","影片長度":"00:14:21","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T12:13:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:27:43+08:00","duration":861,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":820,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時13分）麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好！"],["陳委員瑩：部長好！我們這一次討論的議題是有關於垃圾暫置場的問題，這可能是過去部長比較不熟悉的領域，這個議題過去本席曾經質詢過，但是我發現這個問題的本質其實是在於經濟而不是暫置，所以我們接下來有幾個問題要跟部長請教。請問臺灣目前的焚化爐，公有的跟BOT私有的各有多少座？"],["彭部長啓明：目前是24加5。"],["陳委員瑩：那在處理垃圾焚化時，事業廢棄物的費用是不是比較高？"],["彭部長啓明：對，事業廢棄物的比較高，1噸大概要1萬元。"],["陳委員瑩：那家用的呢？"],["彭部長啓明：家用的3,000元。"],["陳委員瑩：就是隨袋徵收等等的，1萬塊錢的是哪幾家？"],["彭部長啓明：1萬塊的是進到哪裡的？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：進我們焚化爐的話，清除業者跟業者收的大概就是1萬塊上下。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有一個range嗎？每個都一樣大概都1萬塊？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為我們焚化廠有一個進廠垃圾收費標準，一般事廢的話大概是六、七千塊左右，那清除業者……"],["陳委員瑩：因為有分公有跟民營兩種，當然民營的收費會比較高，所以我們目前看到的數據就像簡報上面顯示的大概在二千多元到7,500元左右，我也滿好奇想瞭解看看收1萬塊錢的是哪些。既然事業廢棄物的燃燒費用比較高，那一樣都是在燒垃圾，是不是會有先燒收費高的事業廢棄物而不是以家庭民生廢棄物為優先，導致有些家用廢棄物燒不完就只好先放置的情況？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上這個是不會發生，因為我們有一個比例正在進行當中，就是有簽合約的就有在這樣進行當中。"],["陳委員瑩：但並不是全面都是這個樣子嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以今天我才會特別提出這個問題，就是我們先拋出這樣的一個概念，這很正常嘛！就是有錢賺我就先做啊！"],["彭部長啓明：大家都希望賺錢嘛！"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！就以竹北這個BOO民有民營的焚化爐為例，新竹縣每天產生290噸的家用垃圾，這個焚化爐只願意收費燒250噸，私有焚化爐基於成本效益考量，當然會優先消化掉事業廢棄物，那也會義務性的保留一定的額度給地方的政府，問題是源頭的垃圾減量如果做不好，家庭的垃圾量就會有增無減，那燒不完的只好先暫置起來，暫置起來之後，我們就會看到衍生出很多垃圾山且愈積愈高的問題。我想部長應該認同我剛剛說的邏輯吧！"],["彭部長啓明：基本上現在是沒有不夠，只是在整改當中，他們其實都有跟我們簽合約，所以有一定要燒的量，不見得是因為錢的因素。"],["陳委員瑩：公有焚化爐萬一也比照辦理呢？這是我們比較擔心的。沒有優先處理地方所在地家用垃圾產生的量或者是不願意協助處理鄰近縣市的民生垃圾，是不是也會產生暫置場環境污染的問題？"],["彭部長啓明：我們都有簽合約予以規範，所以基本上他要以我們的家用垃圾為主。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你要確定都有落實才是。因為焚化爐的管理使用是地方政府的權責，你們有沒有每年補助維運的費用？還是只有補助興建的費用？"],["彭部長啓明：我們目前只有補助興建的費用，維運的部分是由地方負責的。"],["陳委員瑩：你們對於目前我們國家現有焚化爐的處理量能有全部都盤點過吧？"],["彭部長啓明：有，就是到116年的話，會到700萬噸。"],["陳委員瑩：這樣夠不夠處理所有產生的家庭跟事業廢棄物？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們過去的設備老舊，時間已經比較久了，……"],["陳委員瑩：現在是不足吧？"],["彭部長啓明：現在是不足，但未來如果到700萬噸的話，應該就夠了，而且還可以把過去累積的……"],["陳委員瑩：你剛剛是說預計到民國哪一年？"],["彭部長啓明：116年底會到700萬噸，現在大概是680萬噸左右。"],["陳委員瑩：那個的前提是如果都興建順利的話？"],["彭部長啓明：對，興建順利的話。然後每年大概會有餘裕多幾十萬噸，那就會把我們現在掩埋場的部分拿來去除。"],["陳委員瑩：家庭與事業廢棄物的收費標準目前是全國一致還是不一樣？"],["彭部長啓明：不一樣，因為是地方環保局在訂定這個標準，不是中央訂的。"],["陳委員瑩：環境部能夠影響這個收費的標準嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：應該是不行，因為那是屬於地方環保局的事務。"],["陳委員瑩：我是說你們有沒有方法可以影響這個收費標準，有沒有可能去減少兩者的差距，我講的是事業廢棄物跟家庭。"],["彭部長啓明：若在法規制定上有一些規定，可能就會讓這個經濟誘因跑出來。"],["陳委員瑩：如果你說沒有辦法，我就要對你很失望了。因為你是部長，怎麼會沒有辦法？所謂「上有政策下有對策」，方法是人想出來的，法規是人訂出來的，你要有棍子跟蘿蔔啊！我剛剛這邊這樣設計問你這個問題，你很聰明，都已經知道賺錢這個誘因了，所以我才問你有沒有辦法、有什麼樣的方法可以去減少這兩者收費的差距。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個讓我去想想看好不好？給我一點時間。"],["陳委員瑩：我一定會給你時間，這個要算清楚，方法也要想清楚，因為我對你很有信心，你那麼聰明。"],["彭部長啓明：不敢！不敢！謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：還有兩位能力這麼好的署長在旁邊幫忙。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝！"],["陳委員瑩：顏署長，我今天有誇獎你耶！雖然你沒有穿粉紅色，但是灰色跟粉紅色色系是搭得起來的。你覺得目前焚化爐處理的量能不足到底是什麼原因？"],["彭部長啓明：目前是因為整改，過去這幾年設備老舊了，現在進行整改後，未來這三、五年如果量能真的可以上來，這個問題應該可以全部解決。"],["陳委員瑩：有沒有分布不均還是不足的？"],["彭部長啓明：的確有幾個縣市還沒有焚化爐，那個要特別注意。"],["陳委員瑩：目前南投是沒有的，上次還在拜託臺東可不可以收他們的垃圾。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以未來我們會不會再興建？如果按照您剛剛提到的，應該是還要再興建新的焚化爐。"],["彭部長啓明：希望每個縣市都有可以自己處理的焚化爐，因為現在其實地方環保局要幫別人收，有時候遇到緊張的時候，像最近臺東跟高雄就有這樣的案例。"],["陳委員瑩：過去我曾經舉過德國的案例，以現在的技術燃燒出來的廢氣早已經遠低於排放標準了，其實焚化爐可以有多重的用途，例如說發電、溫泉，還有旅遊跟環境教育，但是為什麼每次在興建焚化爐的時候都會受到很大的阻力呢？這其實是因為大部分民眾的觀念都還停留在高污染這種刻板印象，也沒有見到你們對於這方面的溝通宣導或推動什麼樣的計畫，所以我想請問部長，你有沒有覺得我們未來應該針對這個宣導正確觀念的計畫好好的推廣一下？不知道你們是否已經有想到一些方式？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們有些焚化廠現在已經是環境教育的場所，這個應該再多一點。我也曾經有看到國外一些例如游泳池或是mall的旁邊就是焚化爐，而且是在都市裡面，我覺得很不可思議。在臺灣一定是嫌惡設施，但是在英國等等國家，他們就有這樣的作法。跟委員報告，我還沒有真的到焚化爐看過，等我一點點時間，我去過SRF廠，但是焚化爐我還沒有時間去看，等我看完之後有機會再跟委員提出我的想法。"],["陳委員瑩：其實剛剛的重點是在民眾對於這方面的刻板印象要改觀，所以為了未來這個遠大的計畫，你一定要先好好地扭轉大家的刻板印象，我覺得這個是你未來要推動什麼計畫一切的一切最優先要做的事情，本席謹在此做這樣子的提醒。不過最後還是要回到問題的本質，當垃圾處理有差別費率時，這個就已經是一個經濟的問題而不是單純的工程技術或者是政治的問題，經濟的力量基本上它就是大於政治的，所以要請部長判斷這個經濟問題的本質它到底是生產還是選擇，是前者的焚化量能不足還是後者的差別費率造成的，你們給予補助若可以有影響力，也應該想盡辦法去縮小這個差別費率或直接去補助家庭垃圾的處理費用，我大概就提出這樣子的建議。"],["彭部長啓明：請委員給我一點點時間去思考這個如何進行。"],["陳委員瑩：30年前，每當要設置焚化爐、焚化廠跟掩埋場這些環保設施時，環保署的官員總是站在第一線面對民眾的抗爭，所以你們要積極主導各種溝通協調，才能在全國完成二十多座大型垃圾焚化廠的興建，其實過程是很辛苦的，今天你們升格為環境部了，所有的人員跟組織其實都已經提升，可是現在看起來該負擔的責任好像都跑到地方政府那邊去，反觀縣市的資源和人力，還是跟30年前一樣，沒有像你們升格之後有大大的提升，結果就是我們現在垃圾百處，臺灣到處都是垃圾山，成為一個還滿有趣的「臺灣新百岳」，像南投、雲林這些縣市的危機可能多年後依然存在，這些問題都不是一朝一夕就出現的，可是大家檢討多年後看到的情況卻是愈來愈嚴重，因此我建議你們應該多去瞭解過去的前輩是如何一步一腳印地親自下鄉去面對問題，比如部長到現在都還沒有親自去看過焚化爐，所以你也要趕快安排一下，而不是整天坐在辦公室看報告、看數據、寫方案計畫的遙控，這樣子就會弱掉了。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員瑩：與其你們每天發新聞稿到處說去哪裡查緝到多少的非法棄置，好像這樣子就沒有垃圾了，這樣是不夠的啦！所以我希望未來我比較能夠聽到看到環境部告訴民眾說我們已經把垃圾山清理處理完畢了，而且也要認真探討原因，因為法規都已經罰得這麼重了，可是你們的新聞稿中公布的違法案件數還是不斷地在攀升，我想這樣是有問題的，真正找出這個問題的因由才是你們中央部會應該有的格局。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，其實我們成為部之後，人力跟預算沒有增加太多，真的還很少啦！所以也請委員多支持。"],["陳委員瑩：署長多了好幾位啊！"],["彭部長啓明：但是整體人力沒有增加。"],["陳委員瑩：升為署長的多了好幾位，薪水也會變多啊！你說人力沒有變多這樣講會很奇怪，因為有加薪了嘛！升任署長就有加薪了。"],["彭部長啓明：但是他們的工作更繁重了。"],["陳委員瑩：那是應該的啊！好啦！給你加油啦！"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的發言。接下來請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","盧縣一","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","賴惠員","牛煦庭","林淑芬","廖偉翔","洪申翰","劉建國","陳冠廷","林俊憲","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","王育敏","鍾佳濱","涂權吉"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id"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{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 222.808, \"end\": 223.068, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 223.068, \"end\": 223.328, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 223.328, \"end\": 223.748, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"垃\", \"start\": 223.748, \"end\": 223.928, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"圾\", \"start\": 223.928, \"end\": 224.088, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 224.088, \"end\": 224.268, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 224.268, \"end\": 224.448, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 224.448, \"end\": 224.649, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 224.649, \"end\": 224.669, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"減\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 225.549, \"end\": 231.381, \"text\": \"那燒不完的只好就先暫時放置了就暫置起來就不會演出\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 225.549, \"end\": 225.91, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"燒\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 225.91, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 230.439, \"end\": 230.74, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 230.74, \"end\": 231.06, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"演\", \"start\": 231.06, \"end\": 231.361, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 231.361, \"end\": 231.381, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 233.342, \"end\": 233.762, \"text\": \"因為公有的焚化爐萬一\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 233.342, \"end\": 233.382, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 233.382, \"end\": 233.442, \"score\": 0.601}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 233.442, \"end\": 233.522, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 233.522, \"end\": 233.562, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"焚\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 233.562, \"end\": 233.742, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"爐\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 233.742, \"end\": 233.762, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 256.151, \"end\": 258.312, \"text\": \"我們都有簽合約做規範所以基本上他要以我們的這個家用垃圾為主\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 256.151, \"end\": 256.231, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 256.231, \"end\": 256.251, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 256.251, \"end\": 256.371, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"簽\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 256.371, \"end\": 256.551, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 256.551, \"end\": 256.712, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 256.712, \"end\": 256.732, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 256.732, \"end\": 256.752, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 256.752, \"end\": 256.852, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 256.852, \"end\": 256.972, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 256.972, \"end\": 257.112, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 257.112, \"end\": 257.292, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 257.292, \"end\": 257.392, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 257.392, \"end\": 257.412, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 257.412, \"end\": 257.432, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 257.432, \"end\": 257.472, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 257.472, \"end\": 257.652, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 257.652, \"end\": 257.832, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"垃\", \"start\": 257.832, \"end\": 258.032, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"圾\", \"start\": 258.032, \"end\": 258.292, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 258.292, \"end\": 258.312, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 278.612, \"end\": 295.877, \"text\": \"好那你要確定都有落實才是因為焚化爐的管理使用是地方政府的權責那你們有沒有每年去補助這個維運的這個費用還是就是說只有補助興建的費用\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 278.612, \"end\": 278.932, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 278.932, \"end\": 279.112, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 279.112, \"end\": 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288.435, \"end\": 288.615, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 288.615, \"end\": 288.835, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 288.835, \"end\": 289.215, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 289.215, \"end\": 289.735, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 289.735, \"end\": 292.336, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 292.336, \"end\": 293.156, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 293.156, \"end\": 293.896, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 293.896, \"end\": 294.096, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 294.096, \"end\": 294.356, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 294.356, \"end\": 294.617, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 294.617, \"end\": 294.717, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"有\", 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\"果\", \"start\": 728.55, \"end\": 728.691, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 728.691, \"end\": 728.851, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 728.851, \"end\": 729.212, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 729.212, \"end\": 729.292, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 729.292, \"end\": 729.412, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"垃\", \"start\": 729.412, \"end\": 729.532, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"圾\", \"start\": 729.532, \"end\": 729.552, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"擺\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 729.552, \"end\": 729.652, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 729.652, \"end\": 729.672, \"score\": 0.008}, {\"word\": \"垃\", \"start\": 729.672, \"end\": 729.873, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"圾\", \"start\": 729.873, \"end\": 729.893, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 732.116, \"end\": 753.419, \"text\": \"台灣到處都是那個垃圾山就是成為一個這個還蠻有趣的台灣新百月那那個南投雲林這些縣市的危機多年以後可能依然還是存在所以這些問題都不是一朝一夕就出現的那所以大家檢討多年後看到的情況卻是越來越嚴重\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 732.116, \"end\": 732.637, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 732.637, \"end\": 733.458, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 733.458, \"end\": 733.598, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 733.598, \"end\": 733.718, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 733.718, \"end\": 733.898, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"垃\", \"start\": 733.898, \"end\": 734.098, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"圾\", \"start\": 734.098, \"end\": 734.338, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 734.338, \"end\": 735.139, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 735.139, \"end\": 735.259, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 735.259, \"end\": 735.64, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 735.64, \"end\": 735.94, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 735.94, \"end\": 736.781, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"蠻\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 736.781, \"end\": 736.981, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"趣\", \"start\": 736.981, \"end\": 737.141, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 737.141, \"end\": 737.362, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 737.362, \"end\": 737.802, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 737.802, \"end\": 738.062, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 738.062, \"end\": 738.263, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 738.263, \"end\": 738.843, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 738.843, \"end\": 738.983, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 738.983, \"end\": 739.144, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"南\", \"start\": 739.144, \"end\": 739.404, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 739.404, 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\"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 743.929, \"end\": 744.249, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 744.249, \"end\": 744.409, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"存\", \"start\": 744.409, \"end\": 744.71, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 744.71, \"end\": 745.35, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 745.35, \"end\": 745.49, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 745.49, \"end\": 745.611, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 745.611, \"end\": 746.211, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 746.211, \"end\": 746.411, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 746.411, \"end\": 746.632, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 746.632, \"end\": 747.132, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 747.132, \"end\": 747.232, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"朝\", \"start\": 747.232, \"end\": 747.453, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 747.453, \"end\": 747.573, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"夕\", \"start\": 747.573, \"end\": 747.713, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 747.713, \"end\": 747.933, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 747.933, \"end\": 748.434, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 748.434, \"end\": 748.794, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 748.794, \"end\": 748.954, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 748.954, \"end\": 749.114, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 749.114, \"end\": 750.196, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 750.196, \"end\": 750.316, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 750.316, \"end\": 750.856, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 750.856, \"end\": 751.016, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 751.016, \"end\": 751.197, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 751.197, \"end\": 751.357, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 751.357, \"end\": 751.517, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 751.517, \"end\": 751.657, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 751.657, \"end\": 751.817, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 751.817, \"end\": 752.498, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"卻\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 752.498, \"end\": 752.618, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 752.618, \"end\": 752.898, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 752.898, \"end\": 753.399, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 753.399, \"end\": 753.419, \"score\": 0.982}]}, {\"start\": 754.78, \"end\": 777.734, \"text\": \"我是建議說你們應該多去了解過去的前輩是如何一步一腳印親自下鄉去面對問題就如同部長都到現在都還沒有去看過這個焚化爐所以你也趕快安排一下而不是整天坐在辦公室看報告看數據寫方案計畫然後這個遙控這樣子就會弱掉了好沒問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 754.78, \"end\": 754.88, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 754.88, \"end\": 755.06, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 755.06, \"end\": 756.141, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 756.141, \"end\": 756.641, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 756.641, \"end\": 756.801, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 756.801, \"end\": 756.922, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 756.922, \"end\": 757.102, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 757.102, \"end\": 757.502, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 757.502, \"end\": 757.642, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 757.642, \"end\": 757.822, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 757.822, \"end\": 758.943, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"輩\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 758.943, \"end\": 759.063, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 759.063, \"end\": 759.223, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 759.223, \"end\": 759.363, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 759.363, \"end\": 759.443, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 759.443, \"end\": 759.583, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 759.583, \"end\": 759.903, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"腳\"}, {\"word\": \"印\", \"start\": 759.903, \"end\": 760.404, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"親\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 760.404, \"end\": 760.784, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 760.784, \"end\": 761.504, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"鄉\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 761.504, \"end\": 761.704, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 761.704, \"end\": 762.525, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 762.525, \"end\": 762.705, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 762.705, \"end\": 762.885, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 762.885, \"end\": 763.065, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 763.065, \"end\": 763.425, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 763.425, \"end\": 763.645, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 763.645, \"end\": 764.006, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 764.006, \"end\": 764.146, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 764.146, \"end\": 764.426, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 764.426, \"end\": 764.566, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 764.566, \"end\": 764.906, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 764.906, \"end\": 765.166, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 765.166, \"end\": 766.107, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"焚\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 766.107, \"end\": 766.347, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"爐\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 766.347, \"end\": 766.547, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 766.547, \"end\": 766.707, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 766.707, \"end\": 766.967, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 766.967, \"end\": 767.127, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"趕\"}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 767.127, \"end\": 767.268, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 767.268, \"end\": 767.468, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 767.468, \"end\": 767.688, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 767.688, \"end\": 767.788, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 767.788, \"end\": 768.708, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 768.708, \"end\": 768.828, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 768.828, \"end\": 768.949, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 768.949, \"end\": 769.109, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 769.109, \"end\": 769.269, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 769.269, \"end\": 769.449, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"坐\", \"start\": 769.449, \"end\": 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842.375, \"score\": 0.108}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 844.417, \"end\": 844.437, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 844.437, \"end\": 844.517, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 844.517, \"end\": 844.537, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:22,219 --> 00:00:46,845\n麻煩請部長謝謝請彭部長主委好部長好我們這一次討論的這個議題是有關於這個垃圾戰車場的問題可能也是過去部長比較不熟悉的領域那這個議題呢過去本席曾經質詢過那但是我發現就是說其實這個問題的本質\n\n2\n00:00:49,265 --> 00:01:18,020\n其實是在於經濟而不是戰志的問題所以我們接下來有幾個問題要跟部長請教就是說台灣目前的焚化爐跟公有的公有的跟BOT私有的各有多少座目前是24加5好謝謝那在這個處理垃圾焚化還有失業廢棄物的費用是不是比較高失業廢棄物比較高對大概一噸大概一萬塊\n\n3\n00:01:20,485 --> 00:01:25,832\n一頓到一萬塊錢。那家用呢?家用三千塊。也是就隨帶徵收?隨帶徵收等等的。一萬塊錢是哪幾家?\n\n4\n00:01:34,446 --> 00:01:51,212\n呃一萬塊進到哪裡的?進我們焚化爐的話就是那個市費大概是就是青藥業者他跟這個這個業者來收大概一萬塊上下因為他沒有一個range嗎?每個都你說大概都一萬塊因為我們我們焚化廠就是有一個進場的那個收費標準\n\n5\n00:01:52,152 --> 00:02:14,120\n那一般市費的話可能大概是六七千塊左右那清楚因為我去看因為有分工有跟民營當然民營會比較高所以我們目前看到數據大概像這個簡報上面大概兩千多到七千五左右那一萬塊錢我也蠻好奇想看看瞭解一下看是哪些好那\n\n6\n00:02:16,161 --> 00:02:41,964\n那就是一樣就是說既然這個事業廢棄物的費用這個燃粉燒的費用是比較高那這樣一樣都是在燒垃圾是不是會有這個先燒收費高的事業廢棄物而不是以這個家庭民生廢棄物為優先所以有些這個家用的燒不完只好先放置會不會有這樣的情況\n\n7\n00:02:43,721 --> 00:02:50,607\n委員基本上這個是不會發生的因為我們有一個比例正在進行當中正在進行但是不是已經\n\n8\n00:02:53,690 --> 00:03:17,375\n就是簽合約就有在這樣的在進行當中但是並不是全面都是這個樣子嗎對對對所以今天我才會特別提出這個問題那我們先就是拋出這樣的一個概念這是很正常大家就是收費希望賺錢嗎對啊有錢賺我就先做啊那所以以這個竹北BOO為例新竹縣每天產生的這個290噸的家用垃圾那\n\n9\n00:03:21,497 --> 00:03:44,669\n這個焚化爐只願意收費然後燒250噸那當然就是說私有焚化爐基於這個成本的效益呢當然會優先消化掉事業廢棄物那也會義務性的保留一定的額度給地方的政府那問題是說源頭的垃圾減費如果做不好所以這個家庭的這個垃圾量有增無減嗎\n\n10\n00:03:45,549 --> 00:03:51,381\n那燒不完的只好就先暫時放置了就暫置起來就不會演出\n\n11\n00:03:53,342 --> 00:03:53,762\n因為公有的焚化爐萬一\n\n12\n00:04:16,151 --> 00:04:18,312\n我們都有簽合約做規範所以基本上他要以我們的這個家用垃圾為主\n\n13\n00:04:38,612 --> 00:04:55,877\n好那你要確定都有落實才是因為焚化爐的管理使用是地方政府的權責那你們有沒有每年去補助這個維運的這個費用還是就是說只有補助興建的費用\n\n14\n00:04:56,816 --> 00:05:12,113\n我們目前只有興建的費用,沒有是地方負責的。那你們對於這個目前我們國家現有焚化爐的處理量有全部都盤點過吧?目前有,等於說到116年的話會到700萬噸。\n\n15\n00:05:19,095 --> 00:05:32,583\n這樣子夠不夠處理所有產生的家庭跟事業廢棄物?因為我們過去老舊已經比較久了。現在是不足吧?現在是不足。那未來如果到700萬噸的話應該就可以夠了。所以你是說預計是?\n\n16\n00:05:41,008 --> 00:05:56,758\n116年底會到700那現在大概是680左右那個前提是如果都興建順利的話對興建順利的話然後每年大概會餘裕大概多幾十萬噸那就會把我們現在的這個野賣場的部分拿來去除\n\n17\n00:05:58,959 --> 00:06:21,795\n目前家庭與事業費棄物收費標準是全國都一致還是說不一樣?因為那個是地方環保局他們在訂定這個標準,不是中央訂的。環境部你們能夠影響這個收費的標準嗎?應該是不行,因為那個是屬於地方環保局的事務。\n\n18\n00:06:23,191 --> 00:06:33,765\n我是說你們有沒有方法可以影響這個收費標準有沒有可能去減少這個兩者的差距我講的是事業廢棄物跟家庭\n\n19\n00:06:34,921 --> 00:06:55,442\n法規上可能制定上可能有一些就會讓這個經濟誘因可能就會跑出來你說沒有辦法我就要對你很失望了啊因為你是部長啊怎麼會沒有辦法這個上有政策下有對策那個有時候方法方法是人想出來的規矩法規是人定出來的嘛你要有棍子跟蘿蔔啊\n\n20\n00:06:56,963 --> 00:07:16,296\n所以我剛剛這邊這個問題這樣設計問你是你很聰明你剛剛都已經知道這個賺錢這個誘因了嘛那所以我才說那你有沒有辦法有什麼樣的方法你可以去減少這個兩者收費的差距啊這個我去想看看好不好給我一點時間\n\n21\n00:07:17,216 --> 00:07:32,779\n對阿我一定會給你時間這個要算清楚阿方法也要想清楚阿好因為我是對你很有信心因為你那麼聰明謝謝委員不敢不敢謝謝謝謝還有這麼能力這麼好的兩位署長在旁邊幫忙謝謝謝謝我今天有在你額落耶嚴署長\n\n22\n00:07:34,020 --> 00:07:47,477\n雖然你沒有穿粉紅色但是灰色跟粉紅色色系是一起搭得起來的那粉化爐呢這個處理的量能不足到底目前這樣是你覺得是什麼原因\n\n23\n00:07:48,383 --> 00:08:04,499\n目前因為是整改嘛,過去這幾年老舊了,現在整改後在未來這3、5年如果真的可以上來之後,這個問題應該可以進一步解決。有沒有這個分布不均還是說不足的問題?的確有幾個縣市是還沒有焚化爐的,那個要特別注意。\n\n24\n00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:30,689\n南投是沒有嗎?那上次還在拜託臺東可不可以收他們垃圾呢?對對對所以就是未來我們會不會再興建就是如果按照您剛剛有提到應該是還要再興建新的焚化爐希望每個縣市都有自己的可以自己處理的焚化爐因為現在其實地方環保局要幫別人收有時候遇到緊張的時候像最近臺東跟高雄就是有這樣的案例\n\n25\n00:08:32,009 --> 00:08:58,658\n因為過去我舉過這個德國的案例那現在的技術燃燒出來的廢棄呢早已經就是遠低於這個排放標準了那很多的焚化爐有很多就是可以有多重的用途例如說發電溫泉還有這個旅遊跟環境教育但是我們為什麼每次在興建焚化爐的時候都會受到很大的阻力其實是因為我們\n\n26\n00:08:59,318 --> 00:09:03,921\n您是否覺得我們應該針對就是說未來這個宣導正確觀念的這個計劃應該要好好的推廣一下不知道你們有沒有\n\n27\n00:09:28,499 --> 00:09:56,272\n已經有想到一些方式其實現在我們有些焚化廠已經是環境教育的場所這個應該再多一點那我也跟委員報告我曾經有靠到國外一些游泳池或是MOB旁邊就是焚化爐而且在都市裡面我覺得很不可思議在臺灣一定是嫌惡設施但是在英國等等他們就有這樣的做法所以我希望說跟委員報告我還沒有真的到過焚化爐看過等我一點點時間我去過SRF廠\n\n28\n00:09:58,573 --> 00:10:13,077\n但是彭樺如還沒有時間去看等我看完之後有機會再跟委員提出想法我覺得你去其實剛剛重點是那個民眾對於這個刻板印象的一個改觀所以這個部分我想說為了\n\n29\n00:10:15,538 --> 00:10:15,558\n好﹗\n\n30\n00:10:30,769 --> 00:10:52,414\n好就做這樣的提醒所以最後還是要回到說問題的本質當這個垃圾處理已經變成這個差別費率這個就是已經是一個經濟的問題啦那而不是說單純工程技術或者是政治的問題所以呢這個經濟的力量基本上它就是大於政治的所以要請部長要判斷經濟問題的本質它到底是生產還是選擇\n\n31\n00:10:58,456 --> 00:10:59,697\n我大概就提出這樣子的建議\n\n32\n00:11:19,409 --> 00:11:23,453\n給我一點點時間去思考如何進行因為30年前每當設置焚化廠跟掩埋廠的這些環保設施的時候環保署的官員總是站在第一線面對民眾就是在抗爭\n\n33\n00:11:38,469 --> 00:11:53,908\n您們要積極主導各種溝通協調才有全國20多座大型垃圾焚花廠的完成其實過程是很辛苦的今天您們升格為環境部所有的人員跟組織其實都已經提升該負擔的責任\n\n34\n00:11:57,132 --> 00:12:09,893\n現在看起來地方政府好像都跑到那邊去那反觀就是說縣市的資源和人力還是跟30年前一樣他沒有像你們升格之後有大大的提升啊所以結果就是我們現在垃圾擺出的垃圾\n\n35\n00:12:12,116 --> 00:12:33,419\n台灣到處都是那個垃圾山就是成為一個這個還蠻有趣的台灣新百月那那個南投雲林這些縣市的危機多年以後可能依然還是存在所以這些問題都不是一朝一夕就出現的那所以大家檢討多年後看到的情況卻是越來越嚴重\n\n36\n00:12:34,780 --> 00:12:57,734\n我是建議說你們應該多去了解過去的前輩是如何一步一腳印親自下鄉去面對問題就如同部長都到現在都還沒有去看過這個焚化爐所以你也趕快安排一下而不是整天坐在辦公室看報告看數據寫方案計畫然後這個遙控這樣子就會弱掉了好沒問題\n\n37\n00:12:58,274 --> 00:13:21,709\n好,那與其就是說每天你們發新聞稿呢到處說我去哪裡查緝到多少的這個非法棄置好像這樣子就沒有垃圾了,這樣是不夠的啦所以我希望未來我比較能夠聽到看到就是說我們環境部告訴民眾說我們出了垃圾山我已經清理處理完畢了\n\n38\n00:13:23,469 --> 00:13:41,538\n而且也要認真探討原因因為法規都已經罰得這麼重了那你們現在發布的新聞稿公佈的違法案件還是不斷的在攀升我想這樣是有問題的所以真正找出這個問題來才是你們中央應該有的格局\n\n39\n00:13:45,814 --> 00:14:02,375\n好謝謝委員其實我們成為部之後人力跟預算沒有增加太多啦真的還很少啦所以也請問委員多支持組長多了好幾位啊但是整個整體人力沒有增加身上署長多了好幾位那個薪水也會變多啊\n\n40\n00:14:04,417 --> 00:14:04,537\n謝謝陳委員的發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n22219\t46845\t麻煩請部長謝謝請彭部長主委好部長好我們這一次討論的這個議題是有關於這個垃圾戰車場的問題可能也是過去部長比較不熟悉的領域那這個議題呢過去本席曾經質詢過那但是我發現就是說其實這個問題的本質\n49265\t78020\t其實是在於經濟而不是戰志的問題所以我們接下來有幾個問題要跟部長請教就是說台灣目前的焚化爐跟公有的公有的跟BOT私有的各有多少座目前是24加5好謝謝那在這個處理垃圾焚化還有失業廢棄物的費用是不是比較高失業廢棄物比較高對大概一噸大概一萬塊\n80485\t85832\t一頓到一萬塊錢。那家用呢?家用三千塊。也是就隨帶徵收?隨帶徵收等等的。一萬塊錢是哪幾家?\n94446\t111212\t呃一萬塊進到哪裡的?進我們焚化爐的話就是那個市費大概是就是青藥業者他跟這個這個業者來收大概一萬塊上下因為他沒有一個range嗎?每個都你說大概都一萬塊因為我們我們焚化廠就是有一個進場的那個收費標準\n112152\t134120\t那一般市費的話可能大概是六七千塊左右那清楚因為我去看因為有分工有跟民營當然民營會比較高所以我們目前看到數據大概像這個簡報上面大概兩千多到七千五左右那一萬塊錢我也蠻好奇想看看瞭解一下看是哪些好那\n136161\t161964\t那就是一樣就是說既然這個事業廢棄物的費用這個燃粉燒的費用是比較高那這樣一樣都是在燒垃圾是不是會有這個先燒收費高的事業廢棄物而不是以這個家庭民生廢棄物為優先所以有些這個家用的燒不完只好先放置會不會有這樣的情況\n163721\t170607\t委員基本上這個是不會發生的因為我們有一個比例正在進行當中正在進行但是不是已經\n173690\t197375\t就是簽合約就有在這樣的在進行當中但是並不是全面都是這個樣子嗎對對對所以今天我才會特別提出這個問題那我們先就是拋出這樣的一個概念這是很正常大家就是收費希望賺錢嗎對啊有錢賺我就先做啊那所以以這個竹北BOO為例新竹縣每天產生的這個290噸的家用垃圾那\n201497\t224669\t這個焚化爐只願意收費然後燒250噸那當然就是說私有焚化爐基於這個成本的效益呢當然會優先消化掉事業廢棄物那也會義務性的保留一定的額度給地方的政府那問題是說源頭的垃圾減費如果做不好所以這個家庭的這個垃圾量有增無減嗎\n225549\t231381\t那燒不完的只好就先暫時放置了就暫置起來就不會演出\n233342\t233762\t因為公有的焚化爐萬一\n256151\t258312\t我們都有簽合約做規範所以基本上他要以我們的這個家用垃圾為主\n278612\t295877\t好那你要確定都有落實才是因為焚化爐的管理使用是地方政府的權責那你們有沒有每年去補助這個維運的這個費用還是就是說只有補助興建的費用\n296816\t312113\t我們目前只有興建的費用,沒有是地方負責的。那你們對於這個目前我們國家現有焚化爐的處理量有全部都盤點過吧?目前有,等於說到116年的話會到700萬噸。\n319095\t332583\t這樣子夠不夠處理所有產生的家庭跟事業廢棄物?因為我們過去老舊已經比較久了。現在是不足吧?現在是不足。那未來如果到700萬噸的話應該就可以夠了。所以你是說預計是?\n341008\t356758\t116年底會到700那現在大概是680左右那個前提是如果都興建順利的話對興建順利的話然後每年大概會餘裕大概多幾十萬噸那就會把我們現在的這個野賣場的部分拿來去除\n358959\t381795\t目前家庭與事業費棄物收費標準是全國都一致還是說不一樣?因為那個是地方環保局他們在訂定這個標準,不是中央訂的。環境部你們能夠影響這個收費的標準嗎?應該是不行,因為那個是屬於地方環保局的事務。\n383191\t393765\t我是說你們有沒有方法可以影響這個收費標準有沒有可能去減少這個兩者的差距我講的是事業廢棄物跟家庭\n394921\t415442\t法規上可能制定上可能有一些就會讓這個經濟誘因可能就會跑出來你說沒有辦法我就要對你很失望了啊因為你是部長啊怎麼會沒有辦法這個上有政策下有對策那個有時候方法方法是人想出來的規矩法規是人定出來的嘛你要有棍子跟蘿蔔啊\n416963\t436296\t所以我剛剛這邊這個問題這樣設計問你是你很聰明你剛剛都已經知道這個賺錢這個誘因了嘛那所以我才說那你有沒有辦法有什麼樣的方法你可以去減少這個兩者收費的差距啊這個我去想看看好不好給我一點時間\n437216\t452779\t對阿我一定會給你時間這個要算清楚阿方法也要想清楚阿好因為我是對你很有信心因為你那麼聰明謝謝委員不敢不敢謝謝謝謝還有這麼能力這麼好的兩位署長在旁邊幫忙謝謝謝謝我今天有在你額落耶嚴署長\n454020\t467477\t雖然你沒有穿粉紅色但是灰色跟粉紅色色系是一起搭得起來的那粉化爐呢這個處理的量能不足到底目前這樣是你覺得是什麼原因\n468383\t484499\t目前因為是整改嘛,過去這幾年老舊了,現在整改後在未來這3、5年如果真的可以上來之後,這個問題應該可以進一步解決。有沒有這個分布不均還是說不足的問題?的確有幾個縣市是還沒有焚化爐的,那個要特別注意。\n486120\t510689\t南投是沒有嗎?那上次還在拜託臺東可不可以收他們垃圾呢?對對對所以就是未來我們會不會再興建就是如果按照您剛剛有提到應該是還要再興建新的焚化爐希望每個縣市都有自己的可以自己處理的焚化爐因為現在其實地方環保局要幫別人收有時候遇到緊張的時候像最近臺東跟高雄就是有這樣的案例\n512009\t538658\t因為過去我舉過這個德國的案例那現在的技術燃燒出來的廢棄呢早已經就是遠低於這個排放標準了那很多的焚化爐有很多就是可以有多重的用途例如說發電溫泉還有這個旅遊跟環境教育但是我們為什麼每次在興建焚化爐的時候都會受到很大的阻力其實是因為我們\n539318\t543921\t您是否覺得我們應該針對就是說未來這個宣導正確觀念的這個計劃應該要好好的推廣一下不知道你們有沒有\n568499\t596272\t已經有想到一些方式其實現在我們有些焚化廠已經是環境教育的場所這個應該再多一點那我也跟委員報告我曾經有靠到國外一些游泳池或是MOB旁邊就是焚化爐而且在都市裡面我覺得很不可思議在臺灣一定是嫌惡設施但是在英國等等他們就有這樣的做法所以我希望說跟委員報告我還沒有真的到過焚化爐看過等我一點點時間我去過SRF廠\n598573\t613077\t但是彭樺如還沒有時間去看等我看完之後有機會再跟委員提出想法我覺得你去其實剛剛重點是那個民眾對於這個刻板印象的一個改觀所以這個部分我想說為了\n615538\t615558\t好﹗\n630769\t652414\t好就做這樣的提醒所以最後還是要回到說問題的本質當這個垃圾處理已經變成這個差別費率這個就是已經是一個經濟的問題啦那而不是說單純工程技術或者是政治的問題所以呢這個經濟的力量基本上它就是大於政治的所以要請部長要判斷經濟問題的本質它到底是生產還是選擇\n658456\t659697\t我大概就提出這樣子的建議\n679409\t683453\t給我一點點時間去思考如何進行因為30年前每當設置焚化廠跟掩埋廠的這些環保設施的時候環保署的官員總是站在第一線面對民眾就是在抗爭\n698469\t713908\t您們要積極主導各種溝通協調才有全國20多座大型垃圾焚花廠的完成其實過程是很辛苦的今天您們升格為環境部所有的人員跟組織其實都已經提升該負擔的責任\n717132\t729893\t現在看起來地方政府好像都跑到那邊去那反觀就是說縣市的資源和人力還是跟30年前一樣他沒有像你們升格之後有大大的提升啊所以結果就是我們現在垃圾擺出的垃圾\n732116\t753419\t台灣到處都是那個垃圾山就是成為一個這個還蠻有趣的台灣新百月那那個南投雲林這些縣市的危機多年以後可能依然還是存在所以這些問題都不是一朝一夕就出現的那所以大家檢討多年後看到的情況卻是越來越嚴重\n754780\t777734\t我是建議說你們應該多去了解過去的前輩是如何一步一腳印親自下鄉去面對問題就如同部長都到現在都還沒有去看過這個焚化爐所以你也趕快安排一下而不是整天坐在辦公室看報告看數據寫方案計畫然後這個遙控這樣子就會弱掉了好沒問題\n778274\t801709\t好,那與其就是說每天你們發新聞稿呢到處說我去哪裡查緝到多少的這個非法棄置好像這樣子就沒有垃圾了,這樣是不夠的啦所以我希望未來我比較能夠聽到看到就是說我們環境部告訴民眾說我們出了垃圾山我已經清理處理完畢了\n803469\t821538\t而且也要認真探討原因因為法規都已經罰得這麼重了那你們現在發布的新聞稿公佈的違法案件還是不斷的在攀升我想這樣是有問題的所以真正找出這個問題來才是你們中央應該有的格局\n825814\t842375\t好謝謝委員其實我們成為部之後人力跟預算沒有增加太多啦真的還很少啦所以也請問委員多支持組長多了好幾位啊但是整個整體人力沒有增加身上署長多了好幾位那個薪水也會變多啊\n844417\t844537\t謝謝陳委員的發言\n","txt":"麻煩請部長謝謝請彭部長主委好部長好我們這一次討論的這個議題是有關於這個垃圾戰車場的問題可能也是過去部長比較不熟悉的領域那這個議題呢過去本席曾經質詢過那但是我發現就是說其實這個問題的本質\n其實是在於經濟而不是戰志的問題所以我們接下來有幾個問題要跟部長請教就是說台灣目前的焚化爐跟公有的公有的跟BOT私有的各有多少座目前是24加5好謝謝那在這個處理垃圾焚化還有失業廢棄物的費用是不是比較高失業廢棄物比較高對大概一噸大概一萬塊\n一頓到一萬塊錢。那家用呢?家用三千塊。也是就隨帶徵收?隨帶徵收等等的。一萬塊錢是哪幾家?\n呃一萬塊進到哪裡的?進我們焚化爐的話就是那個市費大概是就是青藥業者他跟這個這個業者來收大概一萬塊上下因為他沒有一個range嗎?每個都你說大概都一萬塊因為我們我們焚化廠就是有一個進場的那個收費標準\n那一般市費的話可能大概是六七千塊左右那清楚因為我去看因為有分工有跟民營當然民營會比較高所以我們目前看到數據大概像這個簡報上面大概兩千多到七千五左右那一萬塊錢我也蠻好奇想看看瞭解一下看是哪些好那\n那就是一樣就是說既然這個事業廢棄物的費用這個燃粉燒的費用是比較高那這樣一樣都是在燒垃圾是不是會有這個先燒收費高的事業廢棄物而不是以這個家庭民生廢棄物為優先所以有些這個家用的燒不完只好先放置會不會有這樣的情況\n委員基本上這個是不會發生的因為我們有一個比例正在進行當中正在進行但是不是已經\n就是簽合約就有在這樣的在進行當中但是並不是全面都是這個樣子嗎對對對所以今天我才會特別提出這個問題那我們先就是拋出這樣的一個概念這是很正常大家就是收費希望賺錢嗎對啊有錢賺我就先做啊那所以以這個竹北BOO為例新竹縣每天產生的這個290噸的家用垃圾那\n這個焚化爐只願意收費然後燒250噸那當然就是說私有焚化爐基於這個成本的效益呢當然會優先消化掉事業廢棄物那也會義務性的保留一定的額度給地方的政府那問題是說源頭的垃圾減費如果做不好所以這個家庭的這個垃圾量有增無減嗎\n那燒不完的只好就先暫時放置了就暫置起來就不會演出\n因為公有的焚化爐萬一\n我們都有簽合約做規範所以基本上他要以我們的這個家用垃圾為主\n好那你要確定都有落實才是因為焚化爐的管理使用是地方政府的權責那你們有沒有每年去補助這個維運的這個費用還是就是說只有補助興建的費用\n我們目前只有興建的費用,沒有是地方負責的。那你們對於這個目前我們國家現有焚化爐的處理量有全部都盤點過吧?目前有,等於說到116年的話會到700萬噸。\n這樣子夠不夠處理所有產生的家庭跟事業廢棄物?因為我們過去老舊已經比較久了。現在是不足吧?現在是不足。那未來如果到700萬噸的話應該就可以夠了。所以你是說預計是?\n116年底會到700那現在大概是680左右那個前提是如果都興建順利的話對興建順利的話然後每年大概會餘裕大概多幾十萬噸那就會把我們現在的這個野賣場的部分拿來去除\n目前家庭與事業費棄物收費標準是全國都一致還是說不一樣?因為那個是地方環保局他們在訂定這個標準,不是中央訂的。環境部你們能夠影響這個收費的標準嗎?應該是不行,因為那個是屬於地方環保局的事務。\n我是說你們有沒有方法可以影響這個收費標準有沒有可能去減少這個兩者的差距我講的是事業廢棄物跟家庭\n法規上可能制定上可能有一些就會讓這個經濟誘因可能就會跑出來你說沒有辦法我就要對你很失望了啊因為你是部長啊怎麼會沒有辦法這個上有政策下有對策那個有時候方法方法是人想出來的規矩法規是人定出來的嘛你要有棍子跟蘿蔔啊\n所以我剛剛這邊這個問題這樣設計問你是你很聰明你剛剛都已經知道這個賺錢這個誘因了嘛那所以我才說那你有沒有辦法有什麼樣的方法你可以去減少這個兩者收費的差距啊這個我去想看看好不好給我一點時間\n對阿我一定會給你時間這個要算清楚阿方法也要想清楚阿好因為我是對你很有信心因為你那麼聰明謝謝委員不敢不敢謝謝謝謝還有這麼能力這麼好的兩位署長在旁邊幫忙謝謝謝謝我今天有在你額落耶嚴署長\n雖然你沒有穿粉紅色但是灰色跟粉紅色色系是一起搭得起來的那粉化爐呢這個處理的量能不足到底目前這樣是你覺得是什麼原因\n目前因為是整改嘛,過去這幾年老舊了,現在整改後在未來這3、5年如果真的可以上來之後,這個問題應該可以進一步解決。有沒有這個分布不均還是說不足的問題?的確有幾個縣市是還沒有焚化爐的,那個要特別注意。\n南投是沒有嗎?那上次還在拜託臺東可不可以收他們垃圾呢?對對對所以就是未來我們會不會再興建就是如果按照您剛剛有提到應該是還要再興建新的焚化爐希望每個縣市都有自己的可以自己處理的焚化爐因為現在其實地方環保局要幫別人收有時候遇到緊張的時候像最近臺東跟高雄就是有這樣的案例\n因為過去我舉過這個德國的案例那現在的技術燃燒出來的廢棄呢早已經就是遠低於這個排放標準了那很多的焚化爐有很多就是可以有多重的用途例如說發電溫泉還有這個旅遊跟環境教育但是我們為什麼每次在興建焚化爐的時候都會受到很大的阻力其實是因為我們\n您是否覺得我們應該針對就是說未來這個宣導正確觀念的這個計劃應該要好好的推廣一下不知道你們有沒有\n已經有想到一些方式其實現在我們有些焚化廠已經是環境教育的場所這個應該再多一點那我也跟委員報告我曾經有靠到國外一些游泳池或是MOB旁邊就是焚化爐而且在都市裡面我覺得很不可思議在臺灣一定是嫌惡設施但是在英國等等他們就有這樣的做法所以我希望說跟委員報告我還沒有真的到過焚化爐看過等我一點點時間我去過SRF廠\n但是彭樺如還沒有時間去看等我看完之後有機會再跟委員提出想法我覺得你去其實剛剛重點是那個民眾對於這個刻板印象的一個改觀所以這個部分我想說為了\n好﹗\n好就做這樣的提醒所以最後還是要回到說問題的本質當這個垃圾處理已經變成這個差別費率這個就是已經是一個經濟的問題啦那而不是說單純工程技術或者是政治的問題所以呢這個經濟的力量基本上它就是大於政治的所以要請部長要判斷經濟問題的本質它到底是生產還是選擇\n我大概就提出這樣子的建議\n給我一點點時間去思考如何進行因為30年前每當設置焚化廠跟掩埋廠的這些環保設施的時候環保署的官員總是站在第一線面對民眾就是在抗爭\n您們要積極主導各種溝通協調才有全國20多座大型垃圾焚花廠的完成其實過程是很辛苦的今天您們升格為環境部所有的人員跟組織其實都已經提升該負擔的責任\n現在看起來地方政府好像都跑到那邊去那反觀就是說縣市的資源和人力還是跟30年前一樣他沒有像你們升格之後有大大的提升啊所以結果就是我們現在垃圾擺出的垃圾\n台灣到處都是那個垃圾山就是成為一個這個還蠻有趣的台灣新百月那那個南投雲林這些縣市的危機多年以後可能依然還是存在所以這些問題都不是一朝一夕就出現的那所以大家檢討多年後看到的情況卻是越來越嚴重\n我是建議說你們應該多去了解過去的前輩是如何一步一腳印親自下鄉去面對問題就如同部長都到現在都還沒有去看過這個焚化爐所以你也趕快安排一下而不是整天坐在辦公室看報告看數據寫方案計畫然後這個遙控這樣子就會弱掉了好沒問題\n好,那與其就是說每天你們發新聞稿呢到處說我去哪裡查緝到多少的這個非法棄置好像這樣子就沒有垃圾了,這樣是不夠的啦所以我希望未來我比較能夠聽到看到就是說我們環境部告訴民眾說我們出了垃圾山我已經清理處理完畢了\n而且也要認真探討原因因為法規都已經罰得這麼重了那你們現在發布的新聞稿公佈的違法案件還是不斷的在攀升我想這樣是有問題的所以真正找出這個問題來才是你們中央應該有的格局\n好謝謝委員其實我們成為部之後人力跟預算沒有增加太多啦真的還很少啦所以也請問委員多支持組長多了好幾位啊但是整個整體人力沒有增加身上署長多了好幾位那個薪水也會變多啊\n謝謝陳委員的發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:22.219 --> 00:46.845\n麻煩請部長謝謝請彭部長主委好部長好我們這一次討論的這個議題是有關於這個垃圾戰車場的問題可能也是過去部長比較不熟悉的領域那這個議題呢過去本席曾經質詢過那但是我發現就是說其實這個問題的本質\n\n00:49.265 --> 01:18.020\n其實是在於經濟而不是戰志的問題所以我們接下來有幾個問題要跟部長請教就是說台灣目前的焚化爐跟公有的公有的跟BOT私有的各有多少座目前是24加5好謝謝那在這個處理垃圾焚化還有失業廢棄物的費用是不是比較高失業廢棄物比較高對大概一噸大概一萬塊\n\n01:20.485 --> 01:25.832\n一頓到一萬塊錢。那家用呢?家用三千塊。也是就隨帶徵收?隨帶徵收等等的。一萬塊錢是哪幾家?\n\n01:34.446 --> 01:51.212\n呃一萬塊進到哪裡的?進我們焚化爐的話就是那個市費大概是就是青藥業者他跟這個這個業者來收大概一萬塊上下因為他沒有一個range嗎?每個都你說大概都一萬塊因為我們我們焚化廠就是有一個進場的那個收費標準\n\n01:52.152 --> 02:14.120\n那一般市費的話可能大概是六七千塊左右那清楚因為我去看因為有分工有跟民營當然民營會比較高所以我們目前看到數據大概像這個簡報上面大概兩千多到七千五左右那一萬塊錢我也蠻好奇想看看瞭解一下看是哪些好那\n\n02:16.161 --> 02:41.964\n那就是一樣就是說既然這個事業廢棄物的費用這個燃粉燒的費用是比較高那這樣一樣都是在燒垃圾是不是會有這個先燒收費高的事業廢棄物而不是以這個家庭民生廢棄物為優先所以有些這個家用的燒不完只好先放置會不會有這樣的情況\n\n02:43.721 --> 02:50.607\n委員基本上這個是不會發生的因為我們有一個比例正在進行當中正在進行但是不是已經\n\n02:53.690 --> 03:17.375\n就是簽合約就有在這樣的在進行當中但是並不是全面都是這個樣子嗎對對對所以今天我才會特別提出這個問題那我們先就是拋出這樣的一個概念這是很正常大家就是收費希望賺錢嗎對啊有錢賺我就先做啊那所以以這個竹北BOO為例新竹縣每天產生的這個290噸的家用垃圾那\n\n03:21.497 --> 03:44.669\n這個焚化爐只願意收費然後燒250噸那當然就是說私有焚化爐基於這個成本的效益呢當然會優先消化掉事業廢棄物那也會義務性的保留一定的額度給地方的政府那問題是說源頭的垃圾減費如果做不好所以這個家庭的這個垃圾量有增無減嗎\n\n03:45.549 --> 03:51.381\n那燒不完的只好就先暫時放置了就暫置起來就不會演出\n\n03:53.342 --> 03:53.762\n因為公有的焚化爐萬一\n\n04:16.151 --> 04:18.312\n我們都有簽合約做規範所以基本上他要以我們的這個家用垃圾為主\n\n04:38.612 --> 04:55.877\n好那你要確定都有落實才是因為焚化爐的管理使用是地方政府的權責那你們有沒有每年去補助這個維運的這個費用還是就是說只有補助興建的費用\n\n04:56.816 --> 05:12.113\n我們目前只有興建的費用,沒有是地方負責的。那你們對於這個目前我們國家現有焚化爐的處理量有全部都盤點過吧?目前有,等於說到116年的話會到700萬噸。\n\n05:19.095 --> 05:32.583\n這樣子夠不夠處理所有產生的家庭跟事業廢棄物?因為我們過去老舊已經比較久了。現在是不足吧?現在是不足。那未來如果到700萬噸的話應該就可以夠了。所以你是說預計是?\n\n05:41.008 --> 05:56.758\n116年底會到700那現在大概是680左右那個前提是如果都興建順利的話對興建順利的話然後每年大概會餘裕大概多幾十萬噸那就會把我們現在的這個野賣場的部分拿來去除\n\n05:58.959 --> 06:21.795\n目前家庭與事業費棄物收費標準是全國都一致還是說不一樣?因為那個是地方環保局他們在訂定這個標準,不是中央訂的。環境部你們能夠影響這個收費的標準嗎?應該是不行,因為那個是屬於地方環保局的事務。\n\n06:23.191 --> 06:33.765\n我是說你們有沒有方法可以影響這個收費標準有沒有可能去減少這個兩者的差距我講的是事業廢棄物跟家庭\n\n06:34.921 --> 06:55.442\n法規上可能制定上可能有一些就會讓這個經濟誘因可能就會跑出來你說沒有辦法我就要對你很失望了啊因為你是部長啊怎麼會沒有辦法這個上有政策下有對策那個有時候方法方法是人想出來的規矩法規是人定出來的嘛你要有棍子跟蘿蔔啊\n\n06:56.963 --> 07:16.296\n所以我剛剛這邊這個問題這樣設計問你是你很聰明你剛剛都已經知道這個賺錢這個誘因了嘛那所以我才說那你有沒有辦法有什麼樣的方法你可以去減少這個兩者收費的差距啊這個我去想看看好不好給我一點時間\n\n07:17.216 --> 07:32.779\n對阿我一定會給你時間這個要算清楚阿方法也要想清楚阿好因為我是對你很有信心因為你那麼聰明謝謝委員不敢不敢謝謝謝謝還有這麼能力這麼好的兩位署長在旁邊幫忙謝謝謝謝我今天有在你額落耶嚴署長\n\n07:34.020 --> 07:47.477\n雖然你沒有穿粉紅色但是灰色跟粉紅色色系是一起搭得起來的那粉化爐呢這個處理的量能不足到底目前這樣是你覺得是什麼原因\n\n07:48.383 --> 08:04.499\n目前因為是整改嘛,過去這幾年老舊了,現在整改後在未來這3、5年如果真的可以上來之後,這個問題應該可以進一步解決。有沒有這個分布不均還是說不足的問題?的確有幾個縣市是還沒有焚化爐的,那個要特別注意。\n\n08:06.120 --> 08:30.689\n南投是沒有嗎?那上次還在拜託臺東可不可以收他們垃圾呢?對對對所以就是未來我們會不會再興建就是如果按照您剛剛有提到應該是還要再興建新的焚化爐希望每個縣市都有自己的可以自己處理的焚化爐因為現在其實地方環保局要幫別人收有時候遇到緊張的時候像最近臺東跟高雄就是有這樣的案例\n\n08:32.009 --> 08:58.658\n因為過去我舉過這個德國的案例那現在的技術燃燒出來的廢棄呢早已經就是遠低於這個排放標準了那很多的焚化爐有很多就是可以有多重的用途例如說發電溫泉還有這個旅遊跟環境教育但是我們為什麼每次在興建焚化爐的時候都會受到很大的阻力其實是因為我們\n\n08:59.318 --> 09:03.921\n您是否覺得我們應該針對就是說未來這個宣導正確觀念的這個計劃應該要好好的推廣一下不知道你們有沒有\n\n09:28.499 --> 09:56.272\n已經有想到一些方式其實現在我們有些焚化廠已經是環境教育的場所這個應該再多一點那我也跟委員報告我曾經有靠到國外一些游泳池或是MOB旁邊就是焚化爐而且在都市裡面我覺得很不可思議在臺灣一定是嫌惡設施但是在英國等等他們就有這樣的做法所以我希望說跟委員報告我還沒有真的到過焚化爐看過等我一點點時間我去過SRF廠\n\n09:58.573 --> 10:13.077\n但是彭樺如還沒有時間去看等我看完之後有機會再跟委員提出想法我覺得你去其實剛剛重點是那個民眾對於這個刻板印象的一個改觀所以這個部分我想說為了\n\n10:15.538 --> 10:15.558\n好﹗\n\n10:30.769 --> 10:52.414\n好就做這樣的提醒所以最後還是要回到說問題的本質當這個垃圾處理已經變成這個差別費率這個就是已經是一個經濟的問題啦那而不是說單純工程技術或者是政治的問題所以呢這個經濟的力量基本上它就是大於政治的所以要請部長要判斷經濟問題的本質它到底是生產還是選擇\n\n10:58.456 --> 10:59.697\n我大概就提出這樣子的建議\n\n11:19.409 --> 11:23.453\n給我一點點時間去思考如何進行因為30年前每當設置焚化廠跟掩埋廠的這些環保設施的時候環保署的官員總是站在第一線面對民眾就是在抗爭\n\n11:38.469 --> 11:53.908\n您們要積極主導各種溝通協調才有全國20多座大型垃圾焚花廠的完成其實過程是很辛苦的今天您們升格為環境部所有的人員跟組織其實都已經提升該負擔的責任\n\n11:57.132 --> 12:09.893\n現在看起來地方政府好像都跑到那邊去那反觀就是說縣市的資源和人力還是跟30年前一樣他沒有像你們升格之後有大大的提升啊所以結果就是我們現在垃圾擺出的垃圾\n\n12:12.116 --> 12:33.419\n台灣到處都是那個垃圾山就是成為一個這個還蠻有趣的台灣新百月那那個南投雲林這些縣市的危機多年以後可能依然還是存在所以這些問題都不是一朝一夕就出現的那所以大家檢討多年後看到的情況卻是越來越嚴重\n\n12:34.780 --> 12:57.734\n我是建議說你們應該多去了解過去的前輩是如何一步一腳印親自下鄉去面對問題就如同部長都到現在都還沒有去看過這個焚化爐所以你也趕快安排一下而不是整天坐在辦公室看報告看數據寫方案計畫然後這個遙控這樣子就會弱掉了好沒問題\n\n12:58.274 --> 13:21.709\n好,那與其就是說每天你們發新聞稿呢到處說我去哪裡查緝到多少的這個非法棄置好像這樣子就沒有垃圾了,這樣是不夠的啦所以我希望未來我比較能夠聽到看到就是說我們環境部告訴民眾說我們出了垃圾山我已經清理處理完畢了\n\n13:23.469 --> 13:41.538\n而且也要認真探討原因因為法規都已經罰得這麼重了那你們現在發布的新聞稿公佈的違法案件還是不斷的在攀升我想這樣是有問題的所以真正找出這個問題來才是你們中央應該有的格局\n\n13:45.814 --> 14:02.375\n好謝謝委員其實我們成為部之後人力跟預算沒有增加太多啦真的還很少啦所以也請問委員多支持組長多了好幾位啊但是整個整體人力沒有增加身上署長多了好幾位那個薪水也會變多啊\n\n14:04.417 --> 14:04.537\n謝謝陳委員的發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":22.219,"end":46.845,"text":"麻煩請部長謝謝請彭部長主委好部長好我們這一次討論的這個議題是有關於這個垃圾戰車場的問題可能也是過去部長比較不熟悉的領域那這個議題呢過去本席曾經質詢過那但是我發現就是說其實這個問題的本質"},{"start":49.265,"end":78.02,"text":"其實是在於經濟而不是戰志的問題所以我們接下來有幾個問題要跟部長請教就是說台灣目前的焚化爐跟公有的公有的跟BOT私有的各有多少座目前是24加5好謝謝那在這個處理垃圾焚化還有失業廢棄物的費用是不是比較高失業廢棄物比較高對大概一噸大概一萬塊"},{"start":80.485,"end":85.832,"text":"一頓到一萬塊錢。那家用呢?家用三千塊。也是就隨帶徵收?隨帶徵收等等的。一萬塊錢是哪幾家?"},{"start":94.446,"end":111.212,"text":"呃一萬塊進到哪裡的?進我們焚化爐的話就是那個市費大概是就是青藥業者他跟這個這個業者來收大概一萬塊上下因為他沒有一個range嗎?每個都你說大概都一萬塊因為我們我們焚化廠就是有一個進場的那個收費標準"},{"start":112.152,"end":134.12,"text":"那一般市費的話可能大概是六七千塊左右那清楚因為我去看因為有分工有跟民營當然民營會比較高所以我們目前看到數據大概像這個簡報上面大概兩千多到七千五左右那一萬塊錢我也蠻好奇想看看瞭解一下看是哪些好那"},{"start":136.161,"end":161.964,"text":"那就是一樣就是說既然這個事業廢棄物的費用這個燃粉燒的費用是比較高那這樣一樣都是在燒垃圾是不是會有這個先燒收費高的事業廢棄物而不是以這個家庭民生廢棄物為優先所以有些這個家用的燒不完只好先放置會不會有這樣的情況"},{"start":163.721,"end":170.607,"text":"委員基本上這個是不會發生的因為我們有一個比例正在進行當中正在進行但是不是已經"},{"start":173.69,"end":197.375,"text":"就是簽合約就有在這樣的在進行當中但是並不是全面都是這個樣子嗎對對對所以今天我才會特別提出這個問題那我們先就是拋出這樣的一個概念這是很正常大家就是收費希望賺錢嗎對啊有錢賺我就先做啊那所以以這個竹北BOO為例新竹縣每天產生的這個290噸的家用垃圾那"},{"start":201.497,"end":224.669,"text":"這個焚化爐只願意收費然後燒250噸那當然就是說私有焚化爐基於這個成本的效益呢當然會優先消化掉事業廢棄物那也會義務性的保留一定的額度給地方的政府那問題是說源頭的垃圾減費如果做不好所以這個家庭的這個垃圾量有增無減嗎"},{"start":225.549,"end":231.381,"text":"那燒不完的只好就先暫時放置了就暫置起來就不會演出"},{"start":233.342,"end":233.762,"text":"因為公有的焚化爐萬一"},{"start":256.151,"end":258.312,"text":"我們都有簽合約做規範所以基本上他要以我們的這個家用垃圾為主"},{"start":278.612,"end":295.877,"text":"好那你要確定都有落實才是因為焚化爐的管理使用是地方政府的權責那你們有沒有每年去補助這個維運的這個費用還是就是說只有補助興建的費用"},{"start":296.816,"end":312.113,"text":"我們目前只有興建的費用,沒有是地方負責的。那你們對於這個目前我們國家現有焚化爐的處理量有全部都盤點過吧?目前有,等於說到116年的話會到700萬噸。"},{"start":319.095,"end":332.583,"text":"這樣子夠不夠處理所有產生的家庭跟事業廢棄物?因為我們過去老舊已經比較久了。現在是不足吧?現在是不足。那未來如果到700萬噸的話應該就可以夠了。所以你是說預計是?"},{"start":341.008,"end":356.758,"text":"116年底會到700那現在大概是680左右那個前提是如果都興建順利的話對興建順利的話然後每年大概會餘裕大概多幾十萬噸那就會把我們現在的這個野賣場的部分拿來去除"},{"start":358.959,"end":381.795,"text":"目前家庭與事業費棄物收費標準是全國都一致還是說不一樣?因為那個是地方環保局他們在訂定這個標準,不是中央訂的。環境部你們能夠影響這個收費的標準嗎?應該是不行,因為那個是屬於地方環保局的事務。"},{"start":383.191,"end":393.765,"text":"我是說你們有沒有方法可以影響這個收費標準有沒有可能去減少這個兩者的差距我講的是事業廢棄物跟家庭"},{"start":394.921,"end":415.442,"text":"法規上可能制定上可能有一些就會讓這個經濟誘因可能就會跑出來你說沒有辦法我就要對你很失望了啊因為你是部長啊怎麼會沒有辦法這個上有政策下有對策那個有時候方法方法是人想出來的規矩法規是人定出來的嘛你要有棍子跟蘿蔔啊"},{"start":416.963,"end":436.296,"text":"所以我剛剛這邊這個問題這樣設計問你是你很聰明你剛剛都已經知道這個賺錢這個誘因了嘛那所以我才說那你有沒有辦法有什麼樣的方法你可以去減少這個兩者收費的差距啊這個我去想看看好不好給我一點時間"},{"start":437.216,"end":452.779,"text":"對阿我一定會給你時間這個要算清楚阿方法也要想清楚阿好因為我是對你很有信心因為你那麼聰明謝謝委員不敢不敢謝謝謝謝還有這麼能力這麼好的兩位署長在旁邊幫忙謝謝謝謝我今天有在你額落耶嚴署長"},{"start":454.02,"end":467.477,"text":"雖然你沒有穿粉紅色但是灰色跟粉紅色色系是一起搭得起來的那粉化爐呢這個處理的量能不足到底目前這樣是你覺得是什麼原因"},{"start":468.383,"end":484.499,"text":"目前因為是整改嘛,過去這幾年老舊了,現在整改後在未來這3、5年如果真的可以上來之後,這個問題應該可以進一步解決。有沒有這個分布不均還是說不足的問題?的確有幾個縣市是還沒有焚化爐的,那個要特別注意。"},{"start":486.12,"end":510.689,"text":"南投是沒有嗎?那上次還在拜託臺東可不可以收他們垃圾呢?對對對所以就是未來我們會不會再興建就是如果按照您剛剛有提到應該是還要再興建新的焚化爐希望每個縣市都有自己的可以自己處理的焚化爐因為現在其實地方環保局要幫別人收有時候遇到緊張的時候像最近臺東跟高雄就是有這樣的案例"},{"start":512.009,"end":538.658,"text":"因為過去我舉過這個德國的案例那現在的技術燃燒出來的廢棄呢早已經就是遠低於這個排放標準了那很多的焚化爐有很多就是可以有多重的用途例如說發電溫泉還有這個旅遊跟環境教育但是我們為什麼每次在興建焚化爐的時候都會受到很大的阻力其實是因為我們"},{"start":539.318,"end":543.921,"text":"您是否覺得我們應該針對就是說未來這個宣導正確觀念的這個計劃應該要好好的推廣一下不知道你們有沒有"},{"start":568.499,"end":596.272,"text":"已經有想到一些方式其實現在我們有些焚化廠已經是環境教育的場所這個應該再多一點那我也跟委員報告我曾經有靠到國外一些游泳池或是MOB旁邊就是焚化爐而且在都市裡面我覺得很不可思議在臺灣一定是嫌惡設施但是在英國等等他們就有這樣的做法所以我希望說跟委員報告我還沒有真的到過焚化爐看過等我一點點時間我去過SRF廠"},{"start":598.573,"end":613.077,"text":"但是彭樺如還沒有時間去看等我看完之後有機會再跟委員提出想法我覺得你去其實剛剛重點是那個民眾對於這個刻板印象的一個改觀所以這個部分我想說為了"},{"start":615.538,"end":615.558,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":630.769,"end":652.414,"text":"好就做這樣的提醒所以最後還是要回到說問題的本質當這個垃圾處理已經變成這個差別費率這個就是已經是一個經濟的問題啦那而不是說單純工程技術或者是政治的問題所以呢這個經濟的力量基本上它就是大於政治的所以要請部長要判斷經濟問題的本質它到底是生產還是選擇"},{"start":658.456,"end":659.697,"text":"我大概就提出這樣子的建議"},{"start":679.409,"end":683.453,"text":"給我一點點時間去思考如何進行因為30年前每當設置焚化廠跟掩埋廠的這些環保設施的時候環保署的官員總是站在第一線面對民眾就是在抗爭"},{"start":698.469,"end":713.908,"text":"您們要積極主導各種溝通協調才有全國20多座大型垃圾焚花廠的完成其實過程是很辛苦的今天您們升格為環境部所有的人員跟組織其實都已經提升該負擔的責任"},{"start":717.132,"end":729.893,"text":"現在看起來地方政府好像都跑到那邊去那反觀就是說縣市的資源和人力還是跟30年前一樣他沒有像你們升格之後有大大的提升啊所以結果就是我們現在垃圾擺出的垃圾"},{"start":732.116,"end":753.419,"text":"台灣到處都是那個垃圾山就是成為一個這個還蠻有趣的台灣新百月那那個南投雲林這些縣市的危機多年以後可能依然還是存在所以這些問題都不是一朝一夕就出現的那所以大家檢討多年後看到的情況卻是越來越嚴重"},{"start":754.78,"end":777.734,"text":"我是建議說你們應該多去了解過去的前輩是如何一步一腳印親自下鄉去面對問題就如同部長都到現在都還沒有去看過這個焚化爐所以你也趕快安排一下而不是整天坐在辦公室看報告看數據寫方案計畫然後這個遙控這樣子就會弱掉了好沒問題"},{"start":778.274,"end":801.709,"text":"好,那與其就是說每天你們發新聞稿呢到處說我去哪裡查緝到多少的這個非法棄置好像這樣子就沒有垃圾了,這樣是不夠的啦所以我希望未來我比較能夠聽到看到就是說我們環境部告訴民眾說我們出了垃圾山我已經清理處理完畢了"},{"start":803.469,"end":821.538,"text":"而且也要認真探討原因因為法規都已經罰得這麼重了那你們現在發布的新聞稿公佈的違法案件還是不斷的在攀升我想這樣是有問題的所以真正找出這個問題來才是你們中央應該有的格局"},{"start":825.814,"end":842.375,"text":"好謝謝委員其實我們成為部之後人力跟預算沒有增加太多啦真的還很少啦所以也請問委員多支持組長多了好幾位啊但是整個整體人力沒有增加身上署長多了好幾位那個薪水也會變多啊"},{"start":844.417,"end":844.537,"text":"謝謝陳委員的發言"}]}}}}