{"id":153763,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153763","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d53fb358fcd35289719dbbe5275cafb4dfee11d4b92646584d047be7cfaf59973b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:00:00 - 13:11:32","影片長度":"00:11:32","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T13:00:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T13:11:32+08:00","duration":692,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":911,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時）請教育部國教署。"],["主席：請彭署長。"],["葉委員元之：署長，因為本席很關心學校有關母語推廣的問題，不知道署長有沒有去瞭解一下學校推動母語的狀況，我可以給你幾個字下註解：理想很豐滿，現實很骨感。"],["彭署長富源：仍需努力。"],["葉委員元之：這是很多學校老師的反映。有一位校長遇到一名學生，就問學生：「你學了那麼久的原住民語，來講兩句給老師聽聽看。」結果他講不出來。所以，如果我們理想很豐滿，但現實很骨感的話，那一定就是在管理上或政策推動出了問題。請問我們現在是不是有成立一個國家語言發展研究中心，這部分是不是文化部所屬？我想跟部長請教一下，國家語言發展研究中心這個編制有多少人？它是一個什麼樣的單位？"],["李部長遠：目前還沒有，它只是一個……"],["葉委員元之：準備要成立？"],["李部長遠：它還沒有一個最後人數，它是一個大概準備要成立的一個原則……"],["葉委員元之：準備的原則？能不能具體一點？"],["李次長靜慧：我們現在是先將行政法人國家語言發展研究中心的組織條例送行政院，待行政院核定之後就會送到立法院。"],["葉委員元之：所以現在這個中心還沒有成立之前，推動母語教育最高的主管機關就是文化部？"],["李次長靜慧：國家語言的主管機關是文化部。"],["葉委員元之：所以是文化部嘛！既然是文化部，我覺得你們就要站在最上位的概念去思考：為什麼不管我們在學校推動或是整個社會推動上會出狀況？就以學校為例，我不曉得部長知不知道，或者署長也可以幫忙回答，就是學校現在最主要遇到的困難是什麼？"],["彭署長富源：我認為有三個，第一個是師資；第二個我個人認為是教材，教材上還可以更生活、靈活；第三個我覺得在整體的排課上，對應到學校端實際上的一些運作。"],["葉委員元之：你都知道嘛！確實跟我瞭解的差不多，那就要解決啊！就以國小來講，很多都沒有外聘老師，而是由導師兼，導師不可能各種語言都會，所以就以閩南語教學為主；如果是原住民語言的話就要外聘，外聘老師特別少，有些偏鄉學校不願意去，於是就會出現直播的狀況，即原住民老師在別的地方線上教學，這個其實文化部來做就好了，也不需要到學校推廣。不然的話，就是很多原住民小朋友乾脆放棄，改去學閩南語。所以在現實面上的推動就有很大的困難！然後在排課上面，為了配合較少數的原住民語老師或是其他比較少數語言的老師，有時候早自習要去上課，或是晚自習要去上課。然後你的108課綱，當時是把必修課減少，讓學校開放選修，後來又塞了母語進來，也打亂了學校原本的排課，確實有造成學校端的一些困擾。如果這些困擾，大家度過了，問題解決了，我們的小朋友學會了母語，我覺得很值得，可是實際上，你們有沒有去分析，他們真的學會母語了嗎？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，以這個成效而言，我個人覺得還沒有達到我們想像的水準。"],["葉委員元之：那麼要怎麼做？"],["彭署長富源：委員給我10秒鐘……"],["葉委員元之：20秒。"],["彭署長富源：第一個，我覺得像剛剛提到的師資問題，以原民為例，最近我們在處理他們的證照到底能不能夠到中、高級，他就能夠比較廣泛的運用適合的、適任的師資。這部分很快在一、兩個月內會有比較大的進展，這是原民的部分。客語的部分，剛才提到幾個客語重點的學校，它應該要管制它在117學年要專任師資，我們對這件事情有一套的作法，但因為時間還沒到，中間看到那個效果有慢慢出來，這是第一個師資的部分。第二個教材部分，不管是柯委員所提，還有我自己今天也有帶客語的教材來，個人覺得我們可能要再跟相關單位做一些處理。第三個排課的部分，如果師資可以更廣泛的打開來之後，才有可能去回答這個問題，所以師資的問題滿嚴肅的，滿源頭的。以上這三點跟委員報告。"],["葉委員元之：署長都知道問題所在，我建議你可以常常去跟其他學校聊天。為了要來跟你質詢，我問了非常多人的意見，沒有一個人說這個母語推廣的好話，真的！大家都說做這個事情目前看不到任何的效益。"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得這樣就很悲哀，你知道嗎？大家認為這件事應該做，可是政策推動到了末端，大家都不接受，你沒有誘發出大家想要做這個事情的動機，所以每一個人都覺得我應付就好，既然課綱有這樣規定，我就做。我需要老師，可是我找不到，那就用視訊的方式，不然就是讓原住民的學生去學閩南語。就是為做而做嘛！你去找校長問，去找老師問，沒有人會跟你說實話，每一個人跟我講：「哎呀，地方推動這個東西沒有什麼用！」還說：「不要講是我講的。」大家都說「不要講是我講的！」實際狀況就是這樣！請問新的文化部部長，作為母語推廣的主責機關，聽到我反映這樣心聲，你的感覺怎麼樣？"],["李部長遠：我覺得整個語言的發展的確跟當時的環境，還有父母親的觀念、學校的執行能力有關，能不能執行的好或不好跟父母親……"],["葉委員元之：因為這是一個很重要的議題，可能隨時大家都要來這邊再討論一次……"],["李部長遠：對。"],["葉委員元之：下次來的時候，你覺得可以改進哪些地方呢？"],["李部長遠：剛剛講到，因為有些部分屬於教育部能夠做的，比如在學校推動的時候，我們文化部是沒辦法介入的；父母親的觀念，文化部也沒辦法介入。"],["葉委員元之：父母親的觀念誰可以介入？"],["李部長遠：我盡我的責任在文化這一塊。"],["葉委員元之：如果最後我們把母語推廣的責任歸咎於父母的話，那我就預言這個推廣一定會失敗，因為父母沒有理由要配合你們做這些事情。不然的話，也可以仿照國外的作法，有一些國家就直接把預算補助給父母，舉例來講，越南的新住民，他在學校裡面，一個禮拜學一堂的越南話，回到家裡父母都不講越南話，他學不會，因為沒有這個環境，所以不如就補助給家庭，跟他的家長說：以後是不是可以多跟你的小孩講越南話。在我的印象中有些國家是採取這樣的作法。"],["李部長遠：文化部是負責台語，我們就有台語家庭計畫。"],["葉委員元之：也可以考慮這樣做，不然砸下去那麼多錢，還有人力、物力；同時也排擠掉學生學習其他科目的時間，如果都達不到效果，我覺得非常可惜，所以大家不要粉飾太平。第二個是教材的問題，因為我也得到很多家長的反映，他們叫我去看他們的台語教材，說他們都唸不出來，比如「我家」就寫成「阮兜」，「打瞌睡」叫「啄龜」，部長的文化涵養比較高，你來唸一下這段好不好？今仔日拍……"],["李部長遠：我沒辦法唸這個。"],["葉委員元之：你唸一下啦，今仔日什麼……"],["李部長遠：我沒辦法，請比較懂台語的來唸。"],["葉委員元之：這是一位已經很深度在研究台語文化的人寫出來的文章，在學校叫學生唸，沒有一個學生唸得出來，你就試圖唸一下，這不是找你麻煩，這個真的就是大家很努力寫出來的東西。"],["李次長靜慧：「阮欲來去嘉義的阿里山森林遊樂區辶日辶月兩工。大官講伊已經誠久毋捌去遐，進前雄雄予伊想著，阮做序細的聽著，生成愛緊安排，予大官閣去辶日辶月一擺。」"],["葉委員元之：你算是滿強的，很厲害！因為很多人都挑戰失敗。其實我舉這個例子只是反映現在教材真的有問題，教育部編的台語辭典也真的是有問題。像「四季」怎麼講？"],["李次長靜慧：su-kui。"],["葉委員元之：對，我知道，中文怎麼寫？"],["李次長靜慧：沒看到。"],["葉委員元之：怎麼寫？"],["李次長靜慧：我不知道。"],["葉委員元之：乾淨的台語是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：清氣。"],["葉委員元之：「我的房間不時攏真清氣」！"],["李次長靜慧：這是書寫。"],["葉委員元之：台語這樣講沒錯，但是你當作音譯的話，唸起來很奇怪。以前是用台羅拼音，對不對？現在用中文去音譯。所以很多家長叫我唸小朋友的台語課本，說：你唸唸看，你唸不唸出來！我說我唸不出來。我們在場的官員，是因為你本來就很有研究，所以你唸得出來，一般對台語不瞭解的人唸得出來嗎？部長剛剛就唸不出來！所以，我覺得未來如果成立國家語言發展中心，可不可以把教材也編一下，不見得一定要用這種方式，可採取多元的教學，如唱歌，或是用一些大家比較習慣的語言方式切入，語言是生活的東西嘛！在教材上面是不是可以研發出比較適合大家推廣母語的教材。我不知道這部分應該屬於國教署？還是文化部？還是未來的國家語言發展中心？"],["彭署長富源：報告委員，在教材的運用上，一個是教材，一個還有其他的領域，包含生活中常見到的影片、廣告，或是各種的素材，老師在運用上，都可以靈活的來處理。這一些運用的教學方法，可能未來我們在教師增能上會持續努力，並蒐整這些可運用的相關學習資源。謝謝委員的提醒，我們也是一直在精進中。謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：好，加油！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。部長、署長請回。","接下來請黃捷、黃捷、黃捷委員不在。","我們請何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","我們請吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","我們請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","我們請游顥委員、游顥、游顥委員不在。","我們請謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有黃仁委員、陳冠廷委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 209.448, \"end\": 209.908, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 209.908, \"end\": 210.449, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 210.449, \"end\": 210.749, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 210.749, \"end\": 210.949, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"朋\", \"start\": 210.949, \"end\": 211.129, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"友\", \"start\": 211.129, \"end\": 211.59, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 211.59, \"end\": 211.75, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"母\", \"start\": 211.75, \"end\": 212.13, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"語\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 212.13, \"end\": 212.27, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 212.27, \"end\": 212.511, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 212.511, \"end\": 212.611, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 212.611, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"葉\"}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 672.406, \"end\": 672.466, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 672.466, \"end\": 672.526, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 672.526, \"end\": 672.546, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 672.546, \"end\": 672.586, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 672.586, \"end\": 672.606, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 672.606, \"end\": 672.626, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,441 --> 00:00:17,386\n我請那個教育部好了好,請彭署長署長,因為我現在是關心學校有關於母語推廣的問題那我們在學校,我不知道署長有沒有去了解一下學校推動母語的狀況給你幾個字,下一個註解\n\n2\n00:00:20,854 --> 00:00:43,926\n理想很豐滿,現實很骨感。這是很多學校老師或他們的反應。有一個校長遇到一個學生,問學生說:「哇,你學了那麼久的原住民語,來講兩句給老師聽聽看。」而講不出來了。那如果我們理想是很豐滿,但是現實很骨感的話,那一定就是在管理上或政策推動出了問題嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:45,134 --> 00:00:55,850\n我們現在請問我們現在是不是有成立一個國家語言發展研究中心這是不知道是文化部的是不是那請部長好不好我跟請教一下\n\n4\n00:00:57,831 --> 00:01:15,360\n國家語言發展研究中心這個編制多少人還是他是一個什麼樣的單位目前還沒有沒有他只是一個準備要成立他沒有一個完最後的最後人數但是一個一個大概準備要成立的一個那個原則\n\n5\n00:01:20,163 --> 00:01:31,252\n我們現在是先送組織條例行政法院國家語言發展研究中心的組織條例送行政院那行政院合定之後就會送到立法院所以現在在這個中心還沒有成立之前\n\n6\n00:01:33,162 --> 00:01:58,608\n最高的主管機關就是推動這個母語教育的是文化部國家語言的主管機關是文化部那所以是文化部嘛那所以文化部我覺得你就要站在最上位的概念去思考說為什麼我們不管在學校推動或是整個社會推動會出狀況嗎那我就以學校為例啦我不知道說部長你知不知道現在在學校或署長也可以幫忙回答最主要遇到的困難是什麼\n\n7\n00:02:00,370 --> 00:02:23,015\n大概我認為有三個第一個是實質啦第二個我個人認為啦教材我覺得教材可能還可以更生活而靈活那麼第三個我覺得在整體的牌課上對應到實質上學校端的一些運作那你都知道嘛那要解決嘛確實跟我了解差不多\n\n8\n00:02:24,025 --> 00:02:51,025\n因為比如以國小來講的話很多他沒有外聘老師他是導師兼導師不可能各種語言都會所以就以閩南語教學為主如果是原住民的語言的話就要外聘外聘老師特別少特別少有些偏鄉學校不願意去要不然就是會出現直播的狀況原住民老師在別的地方線上教學這個其實文化部做就好了也不需要到學校推廣\n\n9\n00:02:52,130 --> 00:03:12,193\n那不然的話就是很多原住民小朋友乾脆放棄了啦他去學閩南語啦所以這在現實上面推動就有很大的困難嘛然後在排課上面為了配合少數的比如說原住民的老師或者是其他的比較少數語言的老師有時候早自習要去上課或是晚自習要去上課\n\n10\n00:03:13,234 --> 00:03:38,376\n然後你108課綱當時要把必修課減少讓學校去開放選修結果後來又塞了母語進來也打亂了學校原本的排課所以是有造成學校端的一些困擾那我覺得如果這些困擾大家度過了問題解決了讓我們小朋友學會母語了我覺得很值得啦可是實際上你們現在有去分析覺得他們真的有學會母語了嗎?有嗎?\n\n11\n00:03:40,046 --> 00:03:51,670\n以這個成效而言跟文報告我個人覺得還沒有達到我們想像的水準好那怎麼做就剛才有幾個文給我10秒鐘20秒20秒第一個我覺得像剛剛那個失字的問題以原名為例\n\n12\n00:03:58,172 --> 00:04:12,755\n最近我們在處理他證照到底要不要能夠到中高級他就能夠比較廣泛的運用適合的適任的實資這一個很快在一兩個月內會比較大的進展這是原名的部分以客語的部分\n\n13\n00:04:13,596 --> 00:04:38,709\n剛才有提到有幾個課語重點的學校他應該要管制他在11期學年的要專任師資這件事情我們有一套的這個做法但因為時間還沒到中間看到那個效果有慢慢出來第一個師資部分第二個教材部分不管科委員所提以及我自己今天有帶那個課語的教材來我個人覺得可能我們再跟相關的單位再去做一些處理第三個排課的部分\n\n14\n00:04:39,249 --> 00:05:03,019\n可能在師資如果更廣泛的開開來之後才有可能去回答這個問題所以師資滿嚴肅的滿源頭的所以以上是三點報告其實你都知道問題啦其實我建議你可以常常去跟其他學校聊天我為了要來跟你的質詢我問了非常多人意見沒有一個說這個母語推廣的好話真的啦\n\n15\n00:05:04,639 --> 00:05:27,313\n大家都講說做這個事情目前都看不到任何的效益啊我覺得這樣就是很悲哀你知道嗎就是說大家認為這個事情應該做可是政策的推動是到了末端大家全部都不接受你沒有誘發出大家想要做這個事情的動機嘛所以每一個人都覺得說我就應付就好因為既然客岡有這樣規定那我就做啊\n\n16\n00:05:27,913 --> 00:05:44,053\n然後我要老師我找不到那就視訊啊不然就是大家就閩南語的學生去原住民的學生去學閩南語啊對不對這個你就為了做而做嘛所以我真的建議啦因為你去找校長問你去找老師問沒有人會跟你說實話啦\n\n17\n00:05:45,543 --> 00:05:58,388\n每一個人跟我講說哎呀這個地方推動這個東西沒有什麼用不要講我講的都說不要講我講的實際上就是這樣我要說新的文化部部長你作為一個母語的推廣的組織機關聽到我反應這樣心聲你的感覺怎麼樣\n\n18\n00:06:02,898 --> 00:06:24,140\n的確是我覺得整個語言的發展是跟當時的環境還有父母親的觀念還有學校的執行能力有關就他們執行的好跟不好跟整個父母親因為這個是一個很重要的議題可能隨時大家就要來這邊再討論一次那下一次來的時候你覺得可以改進哪些地方\n\n19\n00:06:25,864 --> 00:06:51,157\n剛剛講到因為有一部分屬於教育部不能夠做的比如說在學校推動的時候我們文化部是沒辦法介入的父母性的觀念文化部也沒辦法介入那誰可以父母性的觀念誰可以介入我盡我的責任在文化這一塊如果最後的我們把母語推廣的責任歸咎於父母的話那我就預言這個推廣一定會失敗因為父母沒有理由要配合你們做這些事情\n\n20\n00:06:52,563 --> 00:07:18,863\n不然的話就可以仿照國外的做法有一些國家直接把預算補助給父母比如說新住民舉例來講新住民越南的新住民政府就他在家裡面他在學校裡面學一個禮拜一堂的越南話回到家父母都不講越南話他學不會沒有這個環境那不如就補助給家庭跟他講說以後你是不是可以多跟你的小孩講越南話好像我好像印象中有國外是採取這樣的做法\n\n21\n00:07:19,443 --> 00:07:35,870\n那個文化部是負責臺語我們就有臺語家庭企劃對也可以考慮這樣做啦不然錢扎下去用那麼多人力物力其實你也排擠掉學生學習其他科目的時間嘛但如果都達不到效果我覺得非常可惜\n\n22\n00:07:36,690 --> 00:07:52,254\n大家不要粉飾太平第二個是教材的問題因為我也有得到很多家長反應很多家長就說叫我去看他們的台語教材說他們都念不出來比如說我們溫刀溫刀就寫成晚刀然後什麼打瞌睡叫濁閨\n\n23\n00:07:59,793 --> 00:08:24,818\n部長你還是部長唸一下部長你文化涵養比較高你唸一下這段好不好金載日拍我沒辦法唸這個你唸一下啦金載日什麼我沒辦法請這個比較懂台語的來唸你唸一下這是一個已經非常研究他已經是很深入在研究臺語文化的人寫出來的文章\n\n24\n00:08:26,350 --> 00:08:43,398\n然後在學校叫學生唸啊學生每一個學生唸得出來你唸一下唸一下第一句試圖唸一下這不是找你麻煩這個就真的就是大家很努力寫出來的東西我們就去來去教他的阿里山森林遊樂區七頭兩崗大家說他已經很久不去寫\n\n25\n00:08:51,101 --> 00:09:19,537\n讓他選擇我們最少會聽﹖很快安排給大家大家再去祈禱請拜你算是蠻強的算很厲害啦你很厲害因為很多人都挑戰失敗很多人挑戰失敗那其實我舉這個例子只是反映現在教材真的有問題啊教育部編的《台語辭典》也真的是有問題啊對不對清什麼四季怎麼講\n\n26\n00:09:23,421 --> 00:09:50,317\n四季四季對我知道那你中文是怎麼寫中文怎麼寫啊我沒看到耶怎麼寫我不知道乾淨的中文是什麼清氣中文是什麼他寫親氣啦我的房間不時榮珍親氣啦這是書寫啦他一直這樣講沒錯但是你用這個當作音譯的話念起來很奇怪\n\n27\n00:09:52,103 --> 00:10:07,622\n以前是用羅馬拼音嘛,用什麼,對不對,台文,台羅拼音嘛,現在是用中文去音譯嘛。所以很多家長說,他說你叫我啦,去念小朋友的台語課本啊,說你念看看,你念出來念不出來。我說我念不出來啊。\n\n28\n00:10:11,904 --> 00:10:26,640\n我們在場的官員是因為你本來就很有研究你唸得出來一般對台語不了解的唸得出來嗎部長剛剛就唸不出來啊所以我覺得說未來如果成立這個國家語言翻譯的東西可不可以把教材也編一下不見得一定要用這種方式嘛\n\n29\n00:10:27,741 --> 00:10:50,495\n採取多元的教學啊、唱歌啊或者是用一些比較大家習慣的語言的方式切入啊語言是生活的東西嘛是不是可以在教材上面也可以研發出一個比較適合大家推廣母語的教材那這個我知道是應該是屬於國家屬的還是屬於文化部還是屬於國家語言、未來的國家語言發展中心\n\n30\n00:10:52,429 --> 00:11:12,066\n在教材的運用上一個是教材一個還有其他的領域包含像生活中常見到的影片、廣告或是各種的素材在老師在運用上都可以靈活地來予以處理那這一些運用的教學方法\n\n31\n00:11:12,406 --> 00:11:12,626\n謝謝葉元之委員部長、署長請回\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1441\t17386\t我請那個教育部好了好,請彭署長署長,因為我現在是關心學校有關於母語推廣的問題那我們在學校,我不知道署長有沒有去了解一下學校推動母語的狀況給你幾個字,下一個註解\n20854\t43926\t理想很豐滿,現實很骨感。這是很多學校老師或他們的反應。有一個校長遇到一個學生,問學生說:「哇,你學了那麼久的原住民語,來講兩句給老師聽聽看。」而講不出來了。那如果我們理想是很豐滿,但是現實很骨感的話,那一定就是在管理上或政策推動出了問題嗎?\n45134\t55850\t我們現在請問我們現在是不是有成立一個國家語言發展研究中心這是不知道是文化部的是不是那請部長好不好我跟請教一下\n57831\t75360\t國家語言發展研究中心這個編制多少人還是他是一個什麼樣的單位目前還沒有沒有他只是一個準備要成立他沒有一個完最後的最後人數但是一個一個大概準備要成立的一個那個原則\n80163\t91252\t我們現在是先送組織條例行政法院國家語言發展研究中心的組織條例送行政院那行政院合定之後就會送到立法院所以現在在這個中心還沒有成立之前\n93162\t118608\t最高的主管機關就是推動這個母語教育的是文化部國家語言的主管機關是文化部那所以是文化部嘛那所以文化部我覺得你就要站在最上位的概念去思考說為什麼我們不管在學校推動或是整個社會推動會出狀況嗎那我就以學校為例啦我不知道說部長你知不知道現在在學校或署長也可以幫忙回答最主要遇到的困難是什麼\n120370\t143015\t大概我認為有三個第一個是實質啦第二個我個人認為啦教材我覺得教材可能還可以更生活而靈活那麼第三個我覺得在整體的牌課上對應到實質上學校端的一些運作那你都知道嘛那要解決嘛確實跟我了解差不多\n144025\t171025\t因為比如以國小來講的話很多他沒有外聘老師他是導師兼導師不可能各種語言都會所以就以閩南語教學為主如果是原住民的語言的話就要外聘外聘老師特別少特別少有些偏鄉學校不願意去要不然就是會出現直播的狀況原住民老師在別的地方線上教學這個其實文化部做就好了也不需要到學校推廣\n172130\t192193\t那不然的話就是很多原住民小朋友乾脆放棄了啦他去學閩南語啦所以這在現實上面推動就有很大的困難嘛然後在排課上面為了配合少數的比如說原住民的老師或者是其他的比較少數語言的老師有時候早自習要去上課或是晚自習要去上課\n193234\t218376\t然後你108課綱當時要把必修課減少讓學校去開放選修結果後來又塞了母語進來也打亂了學校原本的排課所以是有造成學校端的一些困擾那我覺得如果這些困擾大家度過了問題解決了讓我們小朋友學會母語了我覺得很值得啦可是實際上你們現在有去分析覺得他們真的有學會母語了嗎?有嗎?\n220046\t231670\t以這個成效而言跟文報告我個人覺得還沒有達到我們想像的水準好那怎麼做就剛才有幾個文給我10秒鐘20秒20秒第一個我覺得像剛剛那個失字的問題以原名為例\n238172\t252755\t最近我們在處理他證照到底要不要能夠到中高級他就能夠比較廣泛的運用適合的適任的實資這一個很快在一兩個月內會比較大的進展這是原名的部分以客語的部分\n253596\t278709\t剛才有提到有幾個課語重點的學校他應該要管制他在11期學年的要專任師資這件事情我們有一套的這個做法但因為時間還沒到中間看到那個效果有慢慢出來第一個師資部分第二個教材部分不管科委員所提以及我自己今天有帶那個課語的教材來我個人覺得可能我們再跟相關的單位再去做一些處理第三個排課的部分\n279249\t303019\t可能在師資如果更廣泛的開開來之後才有可能去回答這個問題所以師資滿嚴肅的滿源頭的所以以上是三點報告其實你都知道問題啦其實我建議你可以常常去跟其他學校聊天我為了要來跟你的質詢我問了非常多人意見沒有一個說這個母語推廣的好話真的啦\n304639\t327313\t大家都講說做這個事情目前都看不到任何的效益啊我覺得這樣就是很悲哀你知道嗎就是說大家認為這個事情應該做可是政策的推動是到了末端大家全部都不接受你沒有誘發出大家想要做這個事情的動機嘛所以每一個人都覺得說我就應付就好因為既然客岡有這樣規定那我就做啊\n327913\t344053\t然後我要老師我找不到那就視訊啊不然就是大家就閩南語的學生去原住民的學生去學閩南語啊對不對這個你就為了做而做嘛所以我真的建議啦因為你去找校長問你去找老師問沒有人會跟你說實話啦\n345543\t358388\t每一個人跟我講說哎呀這個地方推動這個東西沒有什麼用不要講我講的都說不要講我講的實際上就是這樣我要說新的文化部部長你作為一個母語的推廣的組織機關聽到我反應這樣心聲你的感覺怎麼樣\n362898\t384140\t的確是我覺得整個語言的發展是跟當時的環境還有父母親的觀念還有學校的執行能力有關就他們執行的好跟不好跟整個父母親因為這個是一個很重要的議題可能隨時大家就要來這邊再討論一次那下一次來的時候你覺得可以改進哪些地方\n385864\t411157\t剛剛講到因為有一部分屬於教育部不能夠做的比如說在學校推動的時候我們文化部是沒辦法介入的父母性的觀念文化部也沒辦法介入那誰可以父母性的觀念誰可以介入我盡我的責任在文化這一塊如果最後的我們把母語推廣的責任歸咎於父母的話那我就預言這個推廣一定會失敗因為父母沒有理由要配合你們做這些事情\n412563\t438863\t不然的話就可以仿照國外的做法有一些國家直接把預算補助給父母比如說新住民 舉例來講 新住民 越南的新住民政府就 他在家裡面 他在學校裡面學一個禮拜一堂的越南話回到家父母都不講越南話 他學不會 沒有這個環境那不如就補助給家庭 跟他講說以後你是不是可以多跟你的小孩講越南話好像 我好像印象中有國外是採取這樣的做法\n439443\t455870\t那個文化部是負責臺語我們就有臺語家庭企劃對 也可以考慮這樣做啦不然錢扎下去用那麼多人力物力其實你也排擠掉學生學習其他科目的時間嘛但如果都達不到效果我覺得非常可惜\n456690\t472254\t大家不要粉飾太平第二個是教材的問題因為我也有得到很多家長反應很多家長就說叫我去看他們的台語教材說他們都念不出來比如說我們溫刀溫刀就寫成晚刀然後什麼打瞌睡叫濁閨\n479793\t504818\t部長你還是部長唸一下部長你文化涵養比較高你唸一下這段好不好金載日拍我沒辦法唸這個你唸一下啦金載日什麼我沒辦法請這個比較懂台語的來唸你唸一下這是一個已經非常研究他已經是很深入在研究臺語文化的人寫出來的文章\n506350\t523398\t然後在學校叫學生唸啊學生每一個學生唸得出來你唸一下唸一下第一句試圖唸一下這不是找你麻煩這個就真的就是大家很努力寫出來的東西我們就去來去教他的阿里山森林遊樂區七頭兩崗大家說他已經很久不去寫\n531101\t559537\t讓他選擇我們最少會聽﹖很快安排給大家大家再去祈禱請拜你算是蠻強的算很厲害啦你很厲害因為很多人都挑戰失敗很多人挑戰失敗那其實我舉這個例子只是反映現在教材真的有問題啊教育部編的《台語辭典》也真的是有問題啊對不對清什麼四季怎麼講\n563421\t590317\t四季四季對我知道那你中文是怎麼寫中文怎麼寫啊我沒看到耶怎麼寫我不知道乾淨的中文是什麼清氣中文是什麼他寫親氣啦我的房間不時榮珍親氣啦這是書寫啦他一直這樣講沒錯但是你用這個當作音譯的話念起來很奇怪\n592103\t607622\t以前是用羅馬拼音嘛,用什麼,對不對,台文,台羅拼音嘛,現在是用中文去音譯嘛。所以很多家長說,他說你叫我啦,去念小朋友的台語課本啊,說你念看看,你念出來念不出來。我說我念不出來啊。\n611904\t626640\t我們在場的官員是因為你本來就很有研究你唸得出來一般對台語不了解的唸得出來嗎部長剛剛就唸不出來啊所以我覺得說未來如果成立這個國家語言翻譯的東西可不可以把教材也編一下不見得一定要用這種方式嘛\n627741\t650495\t採取多元的教學啊、唱歌啊或者是用一些比較大家習慣的語言的方式切入啊語言是生活的東西嘛是不是可以在教材上面也可以研發出一個比較適合大家推廣母語的教材那這個我知道是應該是屬於國家屬的還是屬於文化部還是屬於國家語言、未來的國家語言發展中心\n652429\t672066\t在教材的運用上一個是教材一個還有其他的領域包含像生活中常見到的影片、廣告或是各種的素材在老師在運用上都可以靈活地來予以處理那這一些運用的教學方法\n672406\t672626\t謝謝葉元之委員部長、署長請回\n","txt":"我請那個教育部好了好,請彭署長署長,因為我現在是關心學校有關於母語推廣的問題那我們在學校,我不知道署長有沒有去了解一下學校推動母語的狀況給你幾個字,下一個註解\n理想很豐滿,現實很骨感。這是很多學校老師或他們的反應。有一個校長遇到一個學生,問學生說:「哇,你學了那麼久的原住民語,來講兩句給老師聽聽看。」而講不出來了。那如果我們理想是很豐滿,但是現實很骨感的話,那一定就是在管理上或政策推動出了問題嗎?\n我們現在請問我們現在是不是有成立一個國家語言發展研究中心這是不知道是文化部的是不是那請部長好不好我跟請教一下\n國家語言發展研究中心這個編制多少人還是他是一個什麼樣的單位目前還沒有沒有他只是一個準備要成立他沒有一個完最後的最後人數但是一個一個大概準備要成立的一個那個原則\n我們現在是先送組織條例行政法院國家語言發展研究中心的組織條例送行政院那行政院合定之後就會送到立法院所以現在在這個中心還沒有成立之前\n最高的主管機關就是推動這個母語教育的是文化部國家語言的主管機關是文化部那所以是文化部嘛那所以文化部我覺得你就要站在最上位的概念去思考說為什麼我們不管在學校推動或是整個社會推動會出狀況嗎那我就以學校為例啦我不知道說部長你知不知道現在在學校或署長也可以幫忙回答最主要遇到的困難是什麼\n大概我認為有三個第一個是實質啦第二個我個人認為啦教材我覺得教材可能還可以更生活而靈活那麼第三個我覺得在整體的牌課上對應到實質上學校端的一些運作那你都知道嘛那要解決嘛確實跟我了解差不多\n因為比如以國小來講的話很多他沒有外聘老師他是導師兼導師不可能各種語言都會所以就以閩南語教學為主如果是原住民的語言的話就要外聘外聘老師特別少特別少有些偏鄉學校不願意去要不然就是會出現直播的狀況原住民老師在別的地方線上教學這個其實文化部做就好了也不需要到學校推廣\n那不然的話就是很多原住民小朋友乾脆放棄了啦他去學閩南語啦所以這在現實上面推動就有很大的困難嘛然後在排課上面為了配合少數的比如說原住民的老師或者是其他的比較少數語言的老師有時候早自習要去上課或是晚自習要去上課\n然後你108課綱當時要把必修課減少讓學校去開放選修結果後來又塞了母語進來也打亂了學校原本的排課所以是有造成學校端的一些困擾那我覺得如果這些困擾大家度過了問題解決了讓我們小朋友學會母語了我覺得很值得啦可是實際上你們現在有去分析覺得他們真的有學會母語了嗎?有嗎?\n以這個成效而言跟文報告我個人覺得還沒有達到我們想像的水準好那怎麼做就剛才有幾個文給我10秒鐘20秒20秒第一個我覺得像剛剛那個失字的問題以原名為例\n最近我們在處理他證照到底要不要能夠到中高級他就能夠比較廣泛的運用適合的適任的實資這一個很快在一兩個月內會比較大的進展這是原名的部分以客語的部分\n剛才有提到有幾個課語重點的學校他應該要管制他在11期學年的要專任師資這件事情我們有一套的這個做法但因為時間還沒到中間看到那個效果有慢慢出來第一個師資部分第二個教材部分不管科委員所提以及我自己今天有帶那個課語的教材來我個人覺得可能我們再跟相關的單位再去做一些處理第三個排課的部分\n可能在師資如果更廣泛的開開來之後才有可能去回答這個問題所以師資滿嚴肅的滿源頭的所以以上是三點報告其實你都知道問題啦其實我建議你可以常常去跟其他學校聊天我為了要來跟你的質詢我問了非常多人意見沒有一個說這個母語推廣的好話真的啦\n大家都講說做這個事情目前都看不到任何的效益啊我覺得這樣就是很悲哀你知道嗎就是說大家認為這個事情應該做可是政策的推動是到了末端大家全部都不接受你沒有誘發出大家想要做這個事情的動機嘛所以每一個人都覺得說我就應付就好因為既然客岡有這樣規定那我就做啊\n然後我要老師我找不到那就視訊啊不然就是大家就閩南語的學生去原住民的學生去學閩南語啊對不對這個你就為了做而做嘛所以我真的建議啦因為你去找校長問你去找老師問沒有人會跟你說實話啦\n每一個人跟我講說哎呀這個地方推動這個東西沒有什麼用不要講我講的都說不要講我講的實際上就是這樣我要說新的文化部部長你作為一個母語的推廣的組織機關聽到我反應這樣心聲你的感覺怎麼樣\n的確是我覺得整個語言的發展是跟當時的環境還有父母親的觀念還有學校的執行能力有關就他們執行的好跟不好跟整個父母親因為這個是一個很重要的議題可能隨時大家就要來這邊再討論一次那下一次來的時候你覺得可以改進哪些地方\n剛剛講到因為有一部分屬於教育部不能夠做的比如說在學校推動的時候我們文化部是沒辦法介入的父母性的觀念文化部也沒辦法介入那誰可以父母性的觀念誰可以介入我盡我的責任在文化這一塊如果最後的我們把母語推廣的責任歸咎於父母的話那我就預言這個推廣一定會失敗因為父母沒有理由要配合你們做這些事情\n不然的話就可以仿照國外的做法有一些國家直接把預算補助給父母比如說新住民 舉例來講 新住民 越南的新住民政府就 他在家裡面 他在學校裡面學一個禮拜一堂的越南話回到家父母都不講越南話 他學不會 沒有這個環境那不如就補助給家庭 跟他講說以後你是不是可以多跟你的小孩講越南話好像 我好像印象中有國外是採取這樣的做法\n那個文化部是負責臺語我們就有臺語家庭企劃對 也可以考慮這樣做啦不然錢扎下去用那麼多人力物力其實你也排擠掉學生學習其他科目的時間嘛但如果都達不到效果我覺得非常可惜\n大家不要粉飾太平第二個是教材的問題因為我也有得到很多家長反應很多家長就說叫我去看他們的台語教材說他們都念不出來比如說我們溫刀溫刀就寫成晚刀然後什麼打瞌睡叫濁閨\n部長你還是部長唸一下部長你文化涵養比較高你唸一下這段好不好金載日拍我沒辦法唸這個你唸一下啦金載日什麼我沒辦法請這個比較懂台語的來唸你唸一下這是一個已經非常研究他已經是很深入在研究臺語文化的人寫出來的文章\n然後在學校叫學生唸啊學生每一個學生唸得出來你唸一下唸一下第一句試圖唸一下這不是找你麻煩這個就真的就是大家很努力寫出來的東西我們就去來去教他的阿里山森林遊樂區七頭兩崗大家說他已經很久不去寫\n讓他選擇我們最少會聽﹖很快安排給大家大家再去祈禱請拜你算是蠻強的算很厲害啦你很厲害因為很多人都挑戰失敗很多人挑戰失敗那其實我舉這個例子只是反映現在教材真的有問題啊教育部編的《台語辭典》也真的是有問題啊對不對清什麼四季怎麼講\n四季四季對我知道那你中文是怎麼寫中文怎麼寫啊我沒看到耶怎麼寫我不知道乾淨的中文是什麼清氣中文是什麼他寫親氣啦我的房間不時榮珍親氣啦這是書寫啦他一直這樣講沒錯但是你用這個當作音譯的話念起來很奇怪\n以前是用羅馬拼音嘛,用什麼,對不對,台文,台羅拼音嘛,現在是用中文去音譯嘛。所以很多家長說,他說你叫我啦,去念小朋友的台語課本啊,說你念看看,你念出來念不出來。我說我念不出來啊。\n我們在場的官員是因為你本來就很有研究你唸得出來一般對台語不了解的唸得出來嗎部長剛剛就唸不出來啊所以我覺得說未來如果成立這個國家語言翻譯的東西可不可以把教材也編一下不見得一定要用這種方式嘛\n採取多元的教學啊、唱歌啊或者是用一些比較大家習慣的語言的方式切入啊語言是生活的東西嘛是不是可以在教材上面也可以研發出一個比較適合大家推廣母語的教材那這個我知道是應該是屬於國家屬的還是屬於文化部還是屬於國家語言、未來的國家語言發展中心\n在教材的運用上一個是教材一個還有其他的領域包含像生活中常見到的影片、廣告或是各種的素材在老師在運用上都可以靈活地來予以處理那這一些運用的教學方法\n謝謝葉元之委員部長、署長請回\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.441 --> 00:17.386\n我請那個教育部好了好,請彭署長署長,因為我現在是關心學校有關於母語推廣的問題那我們在學校,我不知道署長有沒有去了解一下學校推動母語的狀況給你幾個字,下一個註解\n\n00:20.854 --> 00:43.926\n理想很豐滿,現實很骨感。這是很多學校老師或他們的反應。有一個校長遇到一個學生,問學生說:「哇,你學了那麼久的原住民語,來講兩句給老師聽聽看。」而講不出來了。那如果我們理想是很豐滿,但是現實很骨感的話,那一定就是在管理上或政策推動出了問題嗎?\n\n00:45.134 --> 00:55.850\n我們現在請問我們現在是不是有成立一個國家語言發展研究中心這是不知道是文化部的是不是那請部長好不好我跟請教一下\n\n00:57.831 --> 01:15.360\n國家語言發展研究中心這個編制多少人還是他是一個什麼樣的單位目前還沒有沒有他只是一個準備要成立他沒有一個完最後的最後人數但是一個一個大概準備要成立的一個那個原則\n\n01:20.163 --> 01:31.252\n我們現在是先送組織條例行政法院國家語言發展研究中心的組織條例送行政院那行政院合定之後就會送到立法院所以現在在這個中心還沒有成立之前\n\n01:33.162 --> 01:58.608\n最高的主管機關就是推動這個母語教育的是文化部國家語言的主管機關是文化部那所以是文化部嘛那所以文化部我覺得你就要站在最上位的概念去思考說為什麼我們不管在學校推動或是整個社會推動會出狀況嗎那我就以學校為例啦我不知道說部長你知不知道現在在學校或署長也可以幫忙回答最主要遇到的困難是什麼\n\n02:00.370 --> 02:23.015\n大概我認為有三個第一個是實質啦第二個我個人認為啦教材我覺得教材可能還可以更生活而靈活那麼第三個我覺得在整體的牌課上對應到實質上學校端的一些運作那你都知道嘛那要解決嘛確實跟我了解差不多\n\n02:24.025 --> 02:51.025\n因為比如以國小來講的話很多他沒有外聘老師他是導師兼導師不可能各種語言都會所以就以閩南語教學為主如果是原住民的語言的話就要外聘外聘老師特別少特別少有些偏鄉學校不願意去要不然就是會出現直播的狀況原住民老師在別的地方線上教學這個其實文化部做就好了也不需要到學校推廣\n\n02:52.130 --> 03:12.193\n那不然的話就是很多原住民小朋友乾脆放棄了啦他去學閩南語啦所以這在現實上面推動就有很大的困難嘛然後在排課上面為了配合少數的比如說原住民的老師或者是其他的比較少數語言的老師有時候早自習要去上課或是晚自習要去上課\n\n03:13.234 --> 03:38.376\n然後你108課綱當時要把必修課減少讓學校去開放選修結果後來又塞了母語進來也打亂了學校原本的排課所以是有造成學校端的一些困擾那我覺得如果這些困擾大家度過了問題解決了讓我們小朋友學會母語了我覺得很值得啦可是實際上你們現在有去分析覺得他們真的有學會母語了嗎?有嗎?\n\n03:40.046 --> 03:51.670\n以這個成效而言跟文報告我個人覺得還沒有達到我們想像的水準好那怎麼做就剛才有幾個文給我10秒鐘20秒20秒第一個我覺得像剛剛那個失字的問題以原名為例\n\n03:58.172 --> 04:12.755\n最近我們在處理他證照到底要不要能夠到中高級他就能夠比較廣泛的運用適合的適任的實資這一個很快在一兩個月內會比較大的進展這是原名的部分以客語的部分\n\n04:13.596 --> 04:38.709\n剛才有提到有幾個課語重點的學校他應該要管制他在11期學年的要專任師資這件事情我們有一套的這個做法但因為時間還沒到中間看到那個效果有慢慢出來第一個師資部分第二個教材部分不管科委員所提以及我自己今天有帶那個課語的教材來我個人覺得可能我們再跟相關的單位再去做一些處理第三個排課的部分\n\n04:39.249 --> 05:03.019\n可能在師資如果更廣泛的開開來之後才有可能去回答這個問題所以師資滿嚴肅的滿源頭的所以以上是三點報告其實你都知道問題啦其實我建議你可以常常去跟其他學校聊天我為了要來跟你的質詢我問了非常多人意見沒有一個說這個母語推廣的好話真的啦\n\n05:04.639 --> 05:27.313\n大家都講說做這個事情目前都看不到任何的效益啊我覺得這樣就是很悲哀你知道嗎就是說大家認為這個事情應該做可是政策的推動是到了末端大家全部都不接受你沒有誘發出大家想要做這個事情的動機嘛所以每一個人都覺得說我就應付就好因為既然客岡有這樣規定那我就做啊\n\n05:27.913 --> 05:44.053\n然後我要老師我找不到那就視訊啊不然就是大家就閩南語的學生去原住民的學生去學閩南語啊對不對這個你就為了做而做嘛所以我真的建議啦因為你去找校長問你去找老師問沒有人會跟你說實話啦\n\n05:45.543 --> 05:58.388\n每一個人跟我講說哎呀這個地方推動這個東西沒有什麼用不要講我講的都說不要講我講的實際上就是這樣我要說新的文化部部長你作為一個母語的推廣的組織機關聽到我反應這樣心聲你的感覺怎麼樣\n\n06:02.898 --> 06:24.140\n的確是我覺得整個語言的發展是跟當時的環境還有父母親的觀念還有學校的執行能力有關就他們執行的好跟不好跟整個父母親因為這個是一個很重要的議題可能隨時大家就要來這邊再討論一次那下一次來的時候你覺得可以改進哪些地方\n\n06:25.864 --> 06:51.157\n剛剛講到因為有一部分屬於教育部不能夠做的比如說在學校推動的時候我們文化部是沒辦法介入的父母性的觀念文化部也沒辦法介入那誰可以父母性的觀念誰可以介入我盡我的責任在文化這一塊如果最後的我們把母語推廣的責任歸咎於父母的話那我就預言這個推廣一定會失敗因為父母沒有理由要配合你們做這些事情\n\n06:52.563 --> 07:18.863\n不然的話就可以仿照國外的做法有一些國家直接把預算補助給父母比如說新住民舉例來講新住民越南的新住民政府就他在家裡面他在學校裡面學一個禮拜一堂的越南話回到家父母都不講越南話他學不會沒有這個環境那不如就補助給家庭跟他講說以後你是不是可以多跟你的小孩講越南話好像我好像印象中有國外是採取這樣的做法\n\n07:19.443 --> 07:35.870\n那個文化部是負責臺語我們就有臺語家庭企劃對也可以考慮這樣做啦不然錢扎下去用那麼多人力物力其實你也排擠掉學生學習其他科目的時間嘛但如果都達不到效果我覺得非常可惜\n\n07:36.690 --> 07:52.254\n大家不要粉飾太平第二個是教材的問題因為我也有得到很多家長反應很多家長就說叫我去看他們的台語教材說他們都念不出來比如說我們溫刀溫刀就寫成晚刀然後什麼打瞌睡叫濁閨\n\n07:59.793 --> 08:24.818\n部長你還是部長唸一下部長你文化涵養比較高你唸一下這段好不好金載日拍我沒辦法唸這個你唸一下啦金載日什麼我沒辦法請這個比較懂台語的來唸你唸一下這是一個已經非常研究他已經是很深入在研究臺語文化的人寫出來的文章\n\n08:26.350 --> 08:43.398\n然後在學校叫學生唸啊學生每一個學生唸得出來你唸一下唸一下第一句試圖唸一下這不是找你麻煩這個就真的就是大家很努力寫出來的東西我們就去來去教他的阿里山森林遊樂區七頭兩崗大家說他已經很久不去寫\n\n08:51.101 --> 09:19.537\n讓他選擇我們最少會聽﹖很快安排給大家大家再去祈禱請拜你算是蠻強的算很厲害啦你很厲害因為很多人都挑戰失敗很多人挑戰失敗那其實我舉這個例子只是反映現在教材真的有問題啊教育部編的《台語辭典》也真的是有問題啊對不對清什麼四季怎麼講\n\n09:23.421 --> 09:50.317\n四季四季對我知道那你中文是怎麼寫中文怎麼寫啊我沒看到耶怎麼寫我不知道乾淨的中文是什麼清氣中文是什麼他寫親氣啦我的房間不時榮珍親氣啦這是書寫啦他一直這樣講沒錯但是你用這個當作音譯的話念起來很奇怪\n\n09:52.103 --> 10:07.622\n以前是用羅馬拼音嘛,用什麼,對不對,台文,台羅拼音嘛,現在是用中文去音譯嘛。所以很多家長說,他說你叫我啦,去念小朋友的台語課本啊,說你念看看,你念出來念不出來。我說我念不出來啊。\n\n10:11.904 --> 10:26.640\n我們在場的官員是因為你本來就很有研究你唸得出來一般對台語不了解的唸得出來嗎部長剛剛就唸不出來啊所以我覺得說未來如果成立這個國家語言翻譯的東西可不可以把教材也編一下不見得一定要用這種方式嘛\n\n10:27.741 --> 10:50.495\n採取多元的教學啊、唱歌啊或者是用一些比較大家習慣的語言的方式切入啊語言是生活的東西嘛是不是可以在教材上面也可以研發出一個比較適合大家推廣母語的教材那這個我知道是應該是屬於國家屬的還是屬於文化部還是屬於國家語言、未來的國家語言發展中心\n\n10:52.429 --> 11:12.066\n在教材的運用上一個是教材一個還有其他的領域包含像生活中常見到的影片、廣告或是各種的素材在老師在運用上都可以靈活地來予以處理那這一些運用的教學方法\n\n11:12.406 --> 11:12.626\n謝謝葉元之委員部長、署長請回\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.441,"end":17.386,"text":"我請那個教育部好了好,請彭署長署長,因為我現在是關心學校有關於母語推廣的問題那我們在學校,我不知道署長有沒有去了解一下學校推動母語的狀況給你幾個字,下一個註解"},{"start":20.854,"end":43.926,"text":"理想很豐滿,現實很骨感。這是很多學校老師或他們的反應。有一個校長遇到一個學生,問學生說:「哇,你學了那麼久的原住民語,來講兩句給老師聽聽看。」而講不出來了。那如果我們理想是很豐滿,但是現實很骨感的話,那一定就是在管理上或政策推動出了問題嗎?"},{"start":45.134,"end":55.85,"text":"我們現在請問我們現在是不是有成立一個國家語言發展研究中心這是不知道是文化部的是不是那請部長好不好我跟請教一下"},{"start":57.831,"end":75.36,"text":"國家語言發展研究中心這個編制多少人還是他是一個什麼樣的單位目前還沒有沒有他只是一個準備要成立他沒有一個完最後的最後人數但是一個一個大概準備要成立的一個那個原則"},{"start":80.163,"end":91.252,"text":"我們現在是先送組織條例行政法院國家語言發展研究中心的組織條例送行政院那行政院合定之後就會送到立法院所以現在在這個中心還沒有成立之前"},{"start":93.162,"end":118.608,"text":"最高的主管機關就是推動這個母語教育的是文化部國家語言的主管機關是文化部那所以是文化部嘛那所以文化部我覺得你就要站在最上位的概念去思考說為什麼我們不管在學校推動或是整個社會推動會出狀況嗎那我就以學校為例啦我不知道說部長你知不知道現在在學校或署長也可以幫忙回答最主要遇到的困難是什麼"},{"start":120.37,"end":143.015,"text":"大概我認為有三個第一個是實質啦第二個我個人認為啦教材我覺得教材可能還可以更生活而靈活那麼第三個我覺得在整體的牌課上對應到實質上學校端的一些運作那你都知道嘛那要解決嘛確實跟我了解差不多"},{"start":144.025,"end":171.025,"text":"因為比如以國小來講的話很多他沒有外聘老師他是導師兼導師不可能各種語言都會所以就以閩南語教學為主如果是原住民的語言的話就要外聘外聘老師特別少特別少有些偏鄉學校不願意去要不然就是會出現直播的狀況原住民老師在別的地方線上教學這個其實文化部做就好了也不需要到學校推廣"},{"start":172.13,"end":192.193,"text":"那不然的話就是很多原住民小朋友乾脆放棄了啦他去學閩南語啦所以這在現實上面推動就有很大的困難嘛然後在排課上面為了配合少數的比如說原住民的老師或者是其他的比較少數語言的老師有時候早自習要去上課或是晚自習要去上課"},{"start":193.234,"end":218.376,"text":"然後你108課綱當時要把必修課減少讓學校去開放選修結果後來又塞了母語進來也打亂了學校原本的排課所以是有造成學校端的一些困擾那我覺得如果這些困擾大家度過了問題解決了讓我們小朋友學會母語了我覺得很值得啦可是實際上你們現在有去分析覺得他們真的有學會母語了嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":220.046,"end":231.67,"text":"以這個成效而言跟文報告我個人覺得還沒有達到我們想像的水準好那怎麼做就剛才有幾個文給我10秒鐘20秒20秒第一個我覺得像剛剛那個失字的問題以原名為例"},{"start":238.172,"end":252.755,"text":"最近我們在處理他證照到底要不要能夠到中高級他就能夠比較廣泛的運用適合的適任的實資這一個很快在一兩個月內會比較大的進展這是原名的部分以客語的部分"},{"start":253.596,"end":278.709,"text":"剛才有提到有幾個課語重點的學校他應該要管制他在11期學年的要專任師資這件事情我們有一套的這個做法但因為時間還沒到中間看到那個效果有慢慢出來第一個師資部分第二個教材部分不管科委員所提以及我自己今天有帶那個課語的教材來我個人覺得可能我們再跟相關的單位再去做一些處理第三個排課的部分"},{"start":279.249,"end":303.019,"text":"可能在師資如果更廣泛的開開來之後才有可能去回答這個問題所以師資滿嚴肅的滿源頭的所以以上是三點報告其實你都知道問題啦其實我建議你可以常常去跟其他學校聊天我為了要來跟你的質詢我問了非常多人意見沒有一個說這個母語推廣的好話真的啦"},{"start":304.639,"end":327.313,"text":"大家都講說做這個事情目前都看不到任何的效益啊我覺得這樣就是很悲哀你知道嗎就是說大家認為這個事情應該做可是政策的推動是到了末端大家全部都不接受你沒有誘發出大家想要做這個事情的動機嘛所以每一個人都覺得說我就應付就好因為既然客岡有這樣規定那我就做啊"},{"start":327.913,"end":344.053,"text":"然後我要老師我找不到那就視訊啊不然就是大家就閩南語的學生去原住民的學生去學閩南語啊對不對這個你就為了做而做嘛所以我真的建議啦因為你去找校長問你去找老師問沒有人會跟你說實話啦"},{"start":345.543,"end":358.388,"text":"每一個人跟我講說哎呀這個地方推動這個東西沒有什麼用不要講我講的都說不要講我講的實際上就是這樣我要說新的文化部部長你作為一個母語的推廣的組織機關聽到我反應這樣心聲你的感覺怎麼樣"},{"start":362.898,"end":384.14,"text":"的確是我覺得整個語言的發展是跟當時的環境還有父母親的觀念還有學校的執行能力有關就他們執行的好跟不好跟整個父母親因為這個是一個很重要的議題可能隨時大家就要來這邊再討論一次那下一次來的時候你覺得可以改進哪些地方"},{"start":385.864,"end":411.157,"text":"剛剛講到因為有一部分屬於教育部不能夠做的比如說在學校推動的時候我們文化部是沒辦法介入的父母性的觀念文化部也沒辦法介入那誰可以父母性的觀念誰可以介入我盡我的責任在文化這一塊如果最後的我們把母語推廣的責任歸咎於父母的話那我就預言這個推廣一定會失敗因為父母沒有理由要配合你們做這些事情"},{"start":412.563,"end":438.863,"text":"不然的話就可以仿照國外的做法有一些國家直接把預算補助給父母比如說新住民 舉例來講 新住民 越南的新住民政府就 他在家裡面 他在學校裡面學一個禮拜一堂的越南話回到家父母都不講越南話 他學不會 沒有這個環境那不如就補助給家庭 跟他講說以後你是不是可以多跟你的小孩講越南話好像 我好像印象中有國外是採取這樣的做法"},{"start":439.443,"end":455.87,"text":"那個文化部是負責臺語我們就有臺語家庭企劃對 也可以考慮這樣做啦不然錢扎下去用那麼多人力物力其實你也排擠掉學生學習其他科目的時間嘛但如果都達不到效果我覺得非常可惜"},{"start":456.69,"end":472.254,"text":"大家不要粉飾太平第二個是教材的問題因為我也有得到很多家長反應很多家長就說叫我去看他們的台語教材說他們都念不出來比如說我們溫刀溫刀就寫成晚刀然後什麼打瞌睡叫濁閨"},{"start":479.793,"end":504.818,"text":"部長你還是部長唸一下部長你文化涵養比較高你唸一下這段好不好金載日拍我沒辦法唸這個你唸一下啦金載日什麼我沒辦法請這個比較懂台語的來唸你唸一下這是一個已經非常研究他已經是很深入在研究臺語文化的人寫出來的文章"},{"start":506.35,"end":523.398,"text":"然後在學校叫學生唸啊學生每一個學生唸得出來你唸一下唸一下第一句試圖唸一下這不是找你麻煩這個就真的就是大家很努力寫出來的東西我們就去來去教他的阿里山森林遊樂區七頭兩崗大家說他已經很久不去寫"},{"start":531.101,"end":559.537,"text":"讓他選擇我們最少會聽﹖很快安排給大家大家再去祈禱請拜你算是蠻強的算很厲害啦你很厲害因為很多人都挑戰失敗很多人挑戰失敗那其實我舉這個例子只是反映現在教材真的有問題啊教育部編的《台語辭典》也真的是有問題啊對不對清什麼四季怎麼講"},{"start":563.421,"end":590.317,"text":"四季四季對我知道那你中文是怎麼寫中文怎麼寫啊我沒看到耶怎麼寫我不知道乾淨的中文是什麼清氣中文是什麼他寫親氣啦我的房間不時榮珍親氣啦這是書寫啦他一直這樣講沒錯但是你用這個當作音譯的話念起來很奇怪"},{"start":592.103,"end":607.622,"text":"以前是用羅馬拼音嘛,用什麼,對不對,台文,台羅拼音嘛,現在是用中文去音譯嘛。所以很多家長說,他說你叫我啦,去念小朋友的台語課本啊,說你念看看,你念出來念不出來。我說我念不出來啊。"},{"start":611.904,"end":626.64,"text":"我們在場的官員是因為你本來就很有研究你唸得出來一般對台語不了解的唸得出來嗎部長剛剛就唸不出來啊所以我覺得說未來如果成立這個國家語言翻譯的東西可不可以把教材也編一下不見得一定要用這種方式嘛"},{"start":627.741,"end":650.495,"text":"採取多元的教學啊、唱歌啊或者是用一些比較大家習慣的語言的方式切入啊語言是生活的東西嘛是不是可以在教材上面也可以研發出一個比較適合大家推廣母語的教材那這個我知道是應該是屬於國家屬的還是屬於文化部還是屬於國家語言、未來的國家語言發展中心"},{"start":652.429,"end":672.066,"text":"在教材的運用上一個是教材一個還有其他的領域包含像生活中常見到的影片、廣告或是各種的素材在老師在運用上都可以靈活地來予以處理那這一些運用的教學方法"},{"start":672.406,"end":672.626,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員部長、署長請回"}]}}}}