{"id":153775,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153775","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/91386385e8f925e21fa7f2a591401ab963a4d3464892865bf4a4cf422bc2ae8acf599985f5c4a32d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"14:30:42 - 15:01:24","影片長度":"00:30:42","會議時間":"2024-06-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第17次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。 \n二、6月7日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月11日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-07","start_time":"2024-06-07T14:30:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-07T15:01:24+08:00","duration":1842,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第17次會議","id":"院會-11-1-17","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1057,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（14時30分）謝謝院長。有請卓院長跟衛福部邱部長。"],["主席：再請卓院長備詢，也請邱部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長、部長好。恭喜兩位上任新職，也謝謝你們願意承擔重責大任。","最近臺灣颳起了一陣黃仁勳的旋風，大家都知道他在世界AI產業大放異彩，把臺灣再次帶上全世界的舞臺，他是臺灣之光，院長、部長，你們認同嗎？黃仁勳是臺灣之光，你們認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我昨天有到COMPUTEX現場去。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：雖然執行長不在，但是很多我們的廠商跟國際大廠都在那裡。我有一個感覺，如果我們的廠商這樣的合作放在整個臺灣社會，大家都充分來合作，那真的是臺灣的光榮，我們一定要強調這個臺灣的光榮感。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，是的，他是臺灣之光！院長、部長知道黃仁勳的輝達公司被評比為代孕福利最佳的企業嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得進步的思想跟潮流都應該值得鼓勵。"],["陳委員昭姿：他在他的官網上寫著：發展家庭的決定是一個重大的決定，在您生命中最重要的時刻之一，無論您走哪一條路，我們都會在這裡為您提供資源。資源可用於收養、生育、試管嬰兒治療、代孕等，無論您如何擴大家庭，我們都會為您和您生命中最重要的人提供公平、公正的資源，其中輝達提供了百分之百的代孕補助費用，在這裡讓兩位首長知道。回頭看我們臺灣，代理孕母法制化卻被一小撮人長期的醜化成物化、工具化、剝削女性，難道臺灣之光黃仁勳先生也是幫兇嗎？我認為臺灣不能再被這一小撮人綁住，所以我今天要跟院長、部長深入的討論一下這個被黃仁勳先生用來造福員工的代孕制度。","院長、部長，我是一位先天性子宮發育不全的病人，因為我跟我先生都有醫學背景，所以我們毫無困難的去執行代孕，但是為什麼做了一半之後又放棄了，主動站出來挑戰政府？因為當時的政府，就是衛生署的時代，表示它是違憲的，它用行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人執行代孕，甚至威脅要吊銷醫師執照，我們不忍心看到其他沒有資源的人躲在暗夜哭泣。我個人倡議代孕解禁將近30年的時間，二十多年前，我也正式收養了一個孩子，我們一家三口感情非常好。我進入國會主要的目標就是要推動代孕解禁，希望能夠幫助先天性或後天性子宮有病變，或是因為某一些疾病懷孕有風險，甚至包括蔡政府時代允許的同婚家庭。","院長，您是民進黨內人稱的大師兄，大家都說院長您身段柔軟，善於調和鼎鼐，副總統也非常稱讚您，說您善於溝通協調，具有創新的思維，能面對所有的問題。院長，您自認為是否合乎這樣的評價？"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢當，我只是經常揣摩彼此共同的想法跟意見，冀望把它拉到距離更接近，我只能做這樣的努力，不敢當！"],["陳委員昭姿：院長謙虛了，我是相信這些觀察都是事實。中央社的標題直指卓院長，您是擔任賴總統的首任閣揆，負責執行賴總統的意志，我稍後會用證據說明，賴總統對於代孕制度這一件事的意志是什麼。院長，政策是應該要延續的，這一張圖片顯示我在3月26號總質詢的狀況，陳建仁前院長再度清楚地多次表達支持代孕，因為這個法案攸關生養育權以及當時始料未及的少子化國安問題。5月30號您拜訪民眾黨黨團的時候，我也向您請教對於陳前院長任內提出人工生殖法案修法版本的態度，您的態度為何？院長當時有回復我，基本上，政策應該延續，除非有重大的理由。請問院長，您當天的承諾還在嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然一樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝院長，政策應該延續，何況是同一個政黨執政。陳建仁前院長在2004年的時候是衛生署署長，因為我陳情，他很成功地辦了第一次的公民會議，公民會議的結論是允許代孕，讓代孕有條件通過。到今天是二十年前的事，已經是落後先進國家數十年的人工生殖法案，請院長務必要堅定立場，讓臺灣迎頭趕上。何況臺灣的人工生殖科技非常進步，加上從2016年民進黨執政以來，出生人口數從20萬每年下降1萬，到去年的十三萬多人，表示政府無論如何努力，目前成效是不彰的。當然我們鼓勵健康的人生養孩子是沒有問題的，但是對於一群根本不怕養小孩，生育小孩卻有困難的人，是不是應該多多幫助他們，趕緊幫助他們呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是院長，我非常遺憾地發現，衛福部正視病人的需求，看到少子化的危機，因此推出代孕法制化的修法草案的同時，民進黨的性平部卻在5月16號召開了左邊這一張圖的討論會，題目好像很好聽，叫做「代孕制度的N種可能」，但事實上整個座談只有一種聲音，就是反對代孕入法，根本沒有N種可能。這就是民進黨性平部數十年來的態度，有少數幾位如今已經是大老級的女性主義者，不斷地反對、洗腦，無血、無淚、無心肝，完全無視於全世界文明的進步，早就有很多國家允許代孕。","我要講的是更離譜的，當時即將就任衛福部次長的林靜儀也出席了這個活動，他非但沒有針對已經出爐的衛福部的主張積極捍衛，而且還唱反調，這樣子他可以擔任政務官嗎？院長、部長，可以嗎？他可以擔任政務官嗎？對於這一次缺藥的事情，林次長的發言甚至非常的情緒，對於醫護人員的訴求，他竟然說站著講話的人不腰疼，是類似這樣的說法。部長，我當時有請你回去約束他，您做了嗎？一個次長講這個話。您做了嗎？缺藥今天還沒解決。你沒有跟他講，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：有空跟次長講。"],["陳委員昭姿：好啦！你要跟他講。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：他整個角色的轉換還沒有定位，還沒有成功，他現在是次長，必須執行衛福部的政策。請問院長，未來遇到黨內少數女性反對的聲音，您挺得住嗎？您能夠堅定嗎？還是行政院再度失去立場、再度投降，最後又走到送至立法院的版本跟數十年來都一樣，又沒收代孕？"],["卓院長榮泰：新的制度要讓它形成跟落實，我們必須考慮到很多，像這一件事情，社會遇到跟以前不同的問題，我們必須面對。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長請稍等，我會告訴你為什麼我們已經做了非常久。邱部長上個月上任的時候，公開對外宣示開放代理孕母，要拼年底送到立法院，而且用最快的速度處理好。請問部長，你還記得這件事嗎？您記得吧？圖片都在這裡。部長，我還認為你是一個懂得病人需求的醫師。"],["邱部長泰源：可不可以讓我講一下我的心聲？因為我也是幾十年來長久照顧人民健康的一個醫生……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，不好意思，因為……"],["邱部長泰源：我們也一起工作過很久，我完全……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我要提醒你……"],["邱部長泰源：我非常瞭解……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長……"],["邱部長泰源：不孕所帶給家庭的衝擊以及痛苦……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長……"],["邱部長泰源：所以我用盡所有的方法在……"],["陳委員昭姿：2017年您就發文表示「尊重女權譴責惡行　人文關懷研議代理孕母」，您還說在臺灣「合乎倫理原則下，規劃完善法規制度，以人文關懷，帶給國人新生機」、「政府應勇於面對，謹慎研議國家的處理方向。」這個論點我百分之百認同！部長，就請您堅守在這個態度上，OK？"],["邱部長泰源：2017年的態度跟現在的態度應該是一樣的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長。謝謝你。","衛福部近期公布的人工生殖法修正版，距離前一次是2016年，其實再度地、衛福部的版本一直都包括代孕。不孕症專家醫師陳菁徽立委最近密集出席了各項公聽會，跟行政院性平會的某些成員有一些接觸，他悲觀地認為，我們或許要自己從立法院來修法，因為他擔心衛福部的版本永遠出不了行政院。請問院長、部長知道為什麼他會這麼說嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，每個人都有不同的價值，您身為委員，所以我們在這裡對話，但是要形成一個制度，除了在國會聽取……"],["陳委員昭姿：院長請稍後……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的意見，我也必須聽聽社會的意見。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們是不是要用一百年、一個世紀來形成共識，一百年後沒有共識……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會那麼慢。"],["陳委員昭姿：全世界沒有一件事是沒有爭議的。數十年來，這個院版都要經過性平會，這是我的重點，也數十次在那裡卡關。最近一次是2016年，當時政次親口告訴我性平會少數人有意見，少數幾位冬烘、窠臼充滿偏見、充滿被害妄想症的女性主義者，例如黃淑英，長期以來主導了性平會。請問院長，性平會只是個諮議小組耶！性平會有民意基礎嗎？性平會是太上皇機關嗎？性平會有權力可以無限上綱嗎？為什麼代孕法案需要經過性平會的同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該知道，在5月14日這個修正草案已經公告，在公告期間當然會聽到更多社會的聲音，但是它已經進入到整個法的程序裡面，這應該是大家共同努力的一個方向和進度。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，請記得喔！是你在當家，還是性平會在當家？請你要記得這件事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣是人民在當家。"],["陳委員昭姿：「台灣女人連線」，這個名字取得真好，代表臺灣女人嘛！前理事長、性平會資深委員黃淑英，他個人一直主張把法案退回衛福部，這位民進黨婦權會的大老非常刻薄，一直用荒謬霸凌的言語一再誣衊扭曲這個進步法案，也不斷用言語霸凌我這個百分之百的病人，從1990年代開始。簡報右邊的截圖，請看，「台灣女人連線」這個團體竟然對外公開徵求美名為小編，實為網軍要投書反代孕的文章，如此思想偏激言行令人不齒的人，竟然長期擔任行政院的性平會委員，院長，這太離譜了！我再提醒院長，你要當全民的院長，不要讓黃淑英爬到你的頭上，不要讓他一個人否決攸關人權和國安的法案。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，行政院整個體制是有規矩的，我們會照規矩、照法定的權限來進行所有相關的政策和法案。"],["陳委員昭姿：為什麼我們會擔心法案出不了行政院，除了黃淑英之外，簡報上這些團體就是所謂的反代孕婦權團體，其實都被黃淑英所影響了，他們都有成員代表。在行政院性平會，我先跟你報告，在謝長廷院長時代我也是那個婦權會的代表，過去就是因為少數性平會委員的堅持反對，綁架整個性平會，讓法案永遠出不了行政院。例如今年3月6日，行政院性平會第30次會議的會前會再次封殺代孕議題，連討論都不行耶！會前會就封殺耶！院長，性平會這麼大嗎？這麼大嗎？院長、部長，行政院在代理孕母法這個議題上會不會繼續被這些身處在性平會的反對聲音制約、限制？國家沒有自己的立場嗎？我可不可以知道院長怎麼處理這些事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我始終相信任何政策的討論都應該開放，而且經過民主程序，廣納不同意見。"],["陳委員昭姿：我讓你看這一張，3月6日行政院性平會會前會的紀錄，你可以看到黃淑英用一個臨時動議就試圖把代孕議題關在衛福部內，連法案送到性平會的機會都封殺掉，這個決議很離譜，它說「作為未來決策之參考」。性平會是決策機關嗎？怎麼會需要按照性平會的建議補充相關資料，再給性平會做決策呢？這根本是為反而反啊！用各種行政手段來杯葛、封殺法案！我必須再次強調，性平會不是決策機關，它只是個諮議會！它可以建議，但是它不能告訴行政院：你要怎麼做、你不可以怎麼做！","院長，你不認為這個會議紀錄非常離譜嗎？在會前會就把它封殺了！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果只是作為未來決策之參考，那我們會列為參考……"],["陳委員昭姿：他封殺了啊！他連會議agenda都不讓它上去啊！","我來幫部長複習一下，從衛生署時代到現在的衛福部，長期以來都是支持代孕法制化的，1996年行政院有開放兩個版本──甲、乙兩版，乙版就是開放先天性子宮發育不全，當時被稱為就是陳昭姿條款。2004年9月，陳建仁為了代孕議題舉行臺灣第一次公民會議，這個公民會議是通過代孕的，這是20年前。2010年7月，國健署舉行了兩天的國際研討會，邀請先行國家像英國、美國的當事人和專家來臺灣分享、討論。2012年國健署邱署長為了代孕議題再度舉行第二次公民會議，結論是要求儘快通過代孕，而且政府要積極介入相關運作。2010年、2013年、2015年，國健署舉辦了三次國家級的民調，都是一面倒的支持，大約八成。然後前一次國健署是在2016年，就是民進黨執政之前再度提出代孕法案。而且從1996年開始，立法委員們大概舉行了將近20次的公聽會，這個可以從公報查詢。以上佐證，院長，我要告訴你，什麼叫做共識？臺灣社會對代孕議題已經進行了將近30年的思辨過程，院長，您的行政歷練這麼豐富，請問院長，有哪一個民生法案需要經過如此長久的折騰呢？20年前代孕就通過了公民會議的支持，如今你還面臨少子化的國安問題，不是應該更加速成全這些願意生養孩子的家庭嗎？院長，30年了，這樣的思辨過程還不夠嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們經過那麼多年的努力，各方的意見即使現在還在整合，但是這個修法已經上路了，它已經在程序當中了，我們是不是回到這個程序裡面，大家互相再來做更多溝通、說服以及互相諒解、體認的工作呢？"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，我剛剛一再強調，我們做了30年，你還要誰再諒解呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：它現在已經在程序當中……"],["陳委員昭姿：那些人就是少數的一撮人啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：現在的進度就是已經在程序當中了啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：我也感謝衛福部提出來……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：你可以看到衛福部一直都是支持的嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是為什麼一送到性平會就被否決呢？它是決策機關嗎？它只是諮議機構而已啊！我一生不曉得被多少政府機關聘為評議委員會的委員啊！我們也是一個建議案啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是請部長再答復一下？"],["邱部長泰源：我們已經在113年5月14日預告草案，預告期是60天……"],["陳委員昭姿：OK，希望您堅定衛福部的立場。"],["邱部長泰源：然後我們會儘速依照這個程序，將修正法案報請行政院來審查。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長。","我今天大概沒有空跟大家解釋什麼叫做公民會議，但是我覺得身為政治人物，也請兩位做一下功課，因為陳建仁署長非常熟悉，他幫我舉行了第一次公民會議。我簡單說一下兩次公民會議的結論：第一次公民會議是2004年9月陳建仁署長任內，結論是同意有條件開放代孕。有條件當然沒有問題，什麼事都是有條件的啦！第二次公民會議是2012年9月，我唸一下簡單的結論：不孕委託者同時提供健康的精或卵之代孕，應早日開放；不孕委託者僅提供健康的精或卵其中之一者，也應該予以開放；最終無論政府決定開放哪一型的代孕，都應該積極介入代孕制度的運作。公民會議耶！請兩位首長記得公民會議，臺灣沒有舉辦過多少次公民會議，這是一個審議式的民主、很多先進國家採用的方法，就是對於有爭議的政策去做討論，然後最後做出結論。","部長、院長，我現在出示的是2010年、2013年、2015年國健署的民調，你們可以簡單看一下，這些資料都可以查，有六成的人民支持！那麼久以前喔！兩成的人不反對。也就是有八成的臺灣人民在十幾年前就可以接受代孕法制化，如今的社會只會更開放、更多元，難道民意會走回頭路嗎？難道需求會越來越少嗎？需求者會越來越少嗎？很多人身邊大概都會有至少一、兩個以上的朋友或親人正在等待或需求代孕。院長，反代孕的民間團體也會做民調，可是我想請問院長，您認為國家的民調可信度高，還是民間的可信度高？"],["卓院長榮泰：看他取樣的過程跟他怎麼樣詢問答案。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，國家的民調你不相信嗎？國健署的民調。"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說取樣的過程，民間的民調也要看他取樣的過程跟我們政府所做的是不是一樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：那我可不可以請問你，至少國家的民調是可信的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們相信政府所做的民調。"],["陳委員昭姿：國家的民調……"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！我們相信政府所做的民調。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個是國健署的民調，因為他是主責單位。院長，如前面我所說的，我們來看看，中央社的報導說，卓院長您擔任首任閣揆就是要執行賴總統的意志，就人工生殖的部分，我現在向您說明賴總統的意志是什麼。院長、部長，你們知道賴清德總統是代孕法案的先行者嗎？22年前，賴清德立委提出代孕法案，蕭美琴立委跟陳其邁立委都連署了，相當罕見，總計連署人數超過30位，這代表什麼？代理孕母是人權問題、是民生問題，是無關政治意識形態的。22年前這份提案總說明書寫著，當時有其時空背景，一個人不管是先天或後天的原因，缺乏了傳宗接代所必須的生殖要素，這是不可彌補的身體缺陷，應該被公平地視為生殖機能上的障礙者，我們的社會基本上仍然相當重視傳宗接代，在社會價值觀沒有改變之前，對於這些生殖機能有障礙的病人，應該以寬大包容的心來協助他們，而非只是一味地要求他們放棄生育權，強迫他們用收養來解決問題。這就是賴清德總統年輕時的意志，推動代理孕母法制化，造福病友，請院長務必貫徹執行。","我們繼續看，從這張圖左邊可以看到，賴總統跟現任的范巽綠監委，當時多麼努力對人工生殖法草案做的功課，他們調查了225位立委的看法，當時國民黨、民進黨、新黨立委都認為國內對代理孕母的需求是需要大於不需要，其中民進黨立委認同度還最高，有56%。右圖是去年夏天來我辦公室採訪代孕議題的兩位武陵高中學生，他們今年要上大學了，他們特地跑來告訴我，在參加今年的成大經濟系跟臺大法律系的甄試時，他們都甄試成功了，面試老師竟然不約而同地選擇代孕作為甄試的主題。臺大法律系我尚可理解，法案嘛！成大經濟系實在讓人驚艷。另外，今年3月我也應麗山高中的邀請去演講代孕，教務主任還特別跑來告訴我，這可是學生自己安排、自己邀約的，我認為這在在都顯示代孕已經受到國人，包括年輕學子的高度關注。","30年來醫學快速進展，我們有新藥、新科技，罹患癌症或者罕病不再是沒有生路，3天前我們也通過了再生醫療雙法，但人工生殖法跟醫療科技一直有一道人為的鴻溝跨不過去，讓子宮有病變的女性始終看不見曙光，我們的感受是子宮缺陷不是沒救，是不肯救！不是沒救，是不肯救！臺灣第一個試管嬰兒誕生於民國74年，1985年，到今天是39年了，而且臺灣的人工生殖技術是非常的進步成熟，科技的目的本來就是幫助人民追求幸福、達成心願，性平會反代孕的少數成員竟然挾持政府，要求病人接受命運，所以有資源的人就迴避命運，迴避它的禁令，在國內私下進行代孕。是的，沒錯，在國內私下進行，包括我自己。或一直哀求我，或是拜託我幫他找代孕者，有財力的人就到國外去做代孕。反對者說，代孕需求者是剝削社經地位的女性，請問不孕還有分富貴高低嗎？如果臺灣繼續禁止，那才是真正剝削無權無勢的不孕者，因為很多人都沒有錢到國外做。","回到現在的人工生殖法，院長、部長，你們知道有多落伍嗎？只包含了捐精、捐卵，近20年竟然沒有實質的修法，除了反對者的刻薄冷血、行政的怠惰，我實在沒有其他形容詞了。我想請問捐精、捐卵衍生的問題會少於代孕嗎？院長知道相對容易的捐精完全沒有追蹤報告，這個是後果不堪設想嗎？再來反對者事不干己的要求不孕者去收養孩子，請問臺灣收養有追蹤分析跟評估報告嗎？院長、部長，你知道臺灣收養終止率有多高嗎？包括你的師父就是啊！臺灣收養終止率有多高？57%，你可以去社家署查，多麼可怕啊！比離婚率還高。想收養就自己去收養，不要一天到晚呼叫別人去收養小孩，收養跟不孕是兩碼事，不相關。我不服氣，代孕通過兩次嚴謹的公民會議，但是相關法案卻長期被擱置，這是偏見也是歧視。我今天再度代表那些只能默默哭泣的需求者在國會殿堂提出最嚴重的抗議，沒有精子、沒有卵子，我們尚且伸出援手，子宮有病變、沒有功能，不救嗎？請問院長，病人有分高低嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我很願意理解委員的狀況，以及很多相同國人或許也有同樣的狀況，我們願意進到法的這個程序裡面來，儘快把它做得更周延、圓滿，成為一個進步的法律。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝院長，我相信你！","邱部長，你是身為很多人尊敬的醫師，我想請部長就常理回答，今天如果有一位罹患先天性子宮發育不全或是後天的病變，但是渴望生小孩的女性出現在你的門診，你會跟他說：你原本就要被社會淘汰！棄嬰很可憐，你要發揮大愛去收養棄嬰啊！你自己生不出來，幹嘛去覬覦別人子宮啊！不孕不是病，你需要的是心理治療啊！人生不能什麼都想要啊！需求代孕不是人權，是慾望！部長，你會這樣回答他嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我幾十年來不管是自己在跟病人或者教學生都不會用這樣的話來回答。"],["陳委員昭姿：你不會嘛！你一定不會嘛！我相信啊！絕大多數的醫師跟具有起碼同理心的人都不會講這個話，很遺憾，我已經被這些話，多數來自所謂活躍的女性主義者，霸凌了將近30年。要求代孕的病人公開是很困難，這也為什麼這麼多年來，只有我跟藝人小嫻公開自己的身體機密。院長、部長，這些子宮有病變的人，他們躲在黑暗的角落裡哭泣啊！很難被聽到，就好像過去的同性伴侶一樣。兩位首長，他們的悲傷跟期待，你們聽到了嗎？不要把他打入絕症，明明有救。院長，我們真的要逼我們人民到國外去求救嗎？","請問部長，您知道上面的法條條文是哪個版本嗎？這第二十一條規範當中，哪些人可以委託代理孕母？第一，異性戀夫妻當中的妻子無子宮或子宮有病變或懷孕有危及生命之虞。第二，受術配偶雙方均為男性，也就是男同志。第三，女女同志配偶雙方均無子宮或子宮有病變或懷孕有危及生命之虞。只要符合上面三個條件之一，才能委託代理孕母。部長，您知道這是誰的版本嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我不太清楚。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒關係，因為部長您其實才剛上任，這是衛福部的版本，其實看到這個版本的時候，我非常的感動，因為這是一個真正平權的法案，將可能需要代孕的所有族群都含括在裡面，有很多人以為女女同志不會有困難、不需要代孕，其實不是的，因為女女同志伴侶雙方的子宮也不一定完全健康，一定很適合去讓孩子來成長，他們需求代孕還是有存在這個機會的，我真的非常感謝衛福部非常細心的考量這一點。部長，這是衛福部的版本！","全世界三、四十個國家都允許代孕，我用實證來回復反對者的理由。第一個，很多人指控代孕所生的兒童會心理不平衡，但是根據我們的研究，其實不管用什麼方式，代孕或者用傳統方式生，生理健康跟心理健康都是一樣的。我速度稍微快一點，時間有限，有人指控代孕的家庭是會欺壓貧窮女性，但是我剛剛提到了，不孕是不分貧富高低的，很多代孕女性是為了自主、幫助別人、利他而代孕。第三，這個代孕是工具或物化，我剛剛已經又提到了。","來看下一張的這個圖，院長，我再說一次，520南下的時候，我和賴總統相談甚歡，我先恭喜總統然後問總統，你還繼續支持我的代孕嗎？他笑咪咪地回答，我當然支持代孕，你不是也一直告訴別人，我二十幾年前就支持你的代孕嗎？當時有民進黨的立委許智傑，還有同黨的3位民意代表同行都可以作證。總統無戲言，君無戲言，我當然不會錄我好朋友的音，但是他確實這樣告訴我了。所以你們看到了，賴立委跟賴總統他的意志就是支持代孕合法化，兩位首長的態度是不是要貫徹賴總統的意志？","最後我只有一句話，「將心比心，成全別人追求幸福是人生的最高境界」，謝謝院長跟部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第13位的陳俊宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":23,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-17","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-07"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第17次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1135401_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"153775","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153775","tool":"pyannote","id":"153775-pyannote"},"job_id":"p3yVkeRdTtK2nLdL","queued_at":"2024-06-07 16:01:49","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-07 16:02:54","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153775"},{"time":"2024-06-07 16:02:55","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/91386385e8f925e21fa7f2a591401ab963a4d3464892865b03adaedb4d9a025e2147291ad16064825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-07 16:03:46","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-07 16:03:50","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-07 16:04:11","msg":"status: 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"卓\", \"start\": 1834.472, \"end\": 1834.612, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1834.612, \"end\": 1834.753, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1834.753, \"end\": 1834.773, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,359 --> 00:00:15,065\n謝謝院長。有請卓院長跟衛福部邱部長。再請卓院長備詢。也請邱部長備詢。陳國元好。\n\n2\n00:00:24,952 --> 00:00:46,769\n院長部長好恭喜兩位上任新職也謝謝你們願意承擔重責大任最近臺灣刮起了一陣黃仁勳的旋風大家都知道他在世界AI的產業大放異彩把臺灣再次帶上全世界的舞臺他是臺灣之光院長部長你們認同嗎黃仁勳是臺灣之光你們認同嗎\n\n3\n00:00:53,052 --> 00:01:21,365\n我昨天有到Computex現場去雖然執行長不在但是很多我們的廠商跟國際的大廠都在那裡我有一個感覺如果我們的廠商這樣的合作放在整個臺灣社會大家都充分來合作那真的是臺灣的光榮我們一定要強到這個臺灣的光榮感是的他是臺灣之光那麼院長部長知道黃仁勳的輝達公司被評比為代孕福利最佳的企業嗎?\n\n4\n00:01:23,220 --> 00:01:40,598\n我覺得進步的思想跟潮流都應該值得鼓勵。她在官網上寫著,發展家庭的決定是一個重大的決定。在您生命中最重要的時刻之一,無論您走哪一條路,我們都會在這裡為您提供資源。資源可用於收養、生育。\n\n5\n00:01:41,218 --> 00:01:47,162\n在這裡讓兩位所長知道。好,回頭看我們的臺灣。待遇母法制化卻被一小撮人長期的醜化成物化、工具化、剝削女性。\n\n6\n00:02:09,059 --> 00:02:27,270\n那難道臺灣這幫黃仁勳先生也是幫兇嗎?我認為臺灣不能再被這一小撮人綁住所以我今天要跟院長部長深入的討論一下這個被黃仁勳先生用來造福員工的代孕制度\n\n7\n00:02:29,588 --> 00:02:52,726\n院長部長我是一位先天性子宮發育不全的病人那因為我跟我先生都有醫學背景所以我們毫無困難的去執行這個代孕但是為什麼做了一半之後又放棄了呢主動站出來挑戰政府因為當時的這個政府就是衛生署的時代他是違憲的他用行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人執行代孕\n\n8\n00:02:54,029 --> 00:03:16,806\n甚至威脅說要吊銷醫師執照。我們不忍心看到其他沒有資源的人躲在暗夜哭泣。我個人倡議代孕解禁將近30年的時間。20多年前我也正式收養了孩子。我們的一家三戶感情非常好。我進入國會主要的目標就是要推動代孕解禁。\n\n9\n00:03:18,228 --> 00:03:29,762\n希望能夠幫助先天性或後天性職工有病變或是因為某一些疾病他這個懷孕有風險甚至包括蔡政府時代允許的這個同婚家庭\n\n10\n00:03:31,321 --> 00:03:49,207\n院長您是民進黨內大家人稱的大師兄,大家都說院長您身段柔軟,善於調和、鼎爛。副總統也非常地稱讚您,說您善於溝通、協調,具有創新的思維來面對所有的問題。院長您自認為是否合乎這樣的評價?\n\n11\n00:03:50,307 --> 00:04:19,667\n不敢當,我只是經常揣摩彼此共同的想法跟意見,那盡量把它拉到距離更接近,我只能做這樣的努力,不敢當。院長謙虛了,我是相信這些觀察都是事實了。那中央社的標題直指卓院長,您是因為擔任賴總統的首任的閣揆,那他負責執行賴總統的議制,那我稍後會用證據來說明賴總統對於代孕制度這件事的意志是什麼?\n\n12\n00:04:23,188 --> 00:04:43,275\n這張圖片是我在這個3月26號總質詢的時候陳建仁院長再度清楚的多次表達要支持代孕因為這個法案有關生養育權以及當時始料未及的這個少子化國安的這個問題\n\n13\n00:04:45,015 --> 00:05:05,866\n五月三時,您拜訪民眾黨黨團的時候,我也向您請教了,陳前院長任內所提出來的人工生殖法案的修法版本的態度,您的態度為何?院長,您當時有回覆我說,基本上政策應該要延續,除非有重大的一個理由。請問院長,您當天的承諾還在嗎?\n\n14\n00:05:07,447 --> 00:05:28,159\n當然一樣。謝謝院長。政策是應該延續,何況是同一個政黨來執政。陳建元在2004年的時候,當時他是衛生署署長,他很成功辦了第一次的公民會議。公民會議的結論是允許代孕,代孕有條件通過。\n\n15\n00:05:29,119 --> 00:05:52,434\n那麼到今天,那是20年前的事,到今天已經落後的這個先進國家數十名的人工生殖法案,請院長務必要堅定立場,讓臺灣迎頭趕上。何況臺灣的人工生殖科技是非常的進步,加上從2016年民進黨執政以來,那個出生人口數從20萬每年向下1萬,到去年的13萬多。\n\n16\n00:05:53,655 --> 00:05:53,775\n是的。\n\n17\n00:06:16,141 --> 00:06:42,468\n但是院長我非常遺憾的發現在這個衛福部正式病人需求看到少子化的這個危機推出這個代孕法制化的修法草案的同時民進黨的性評部卻在5月16號召開了這左邊這張圖的討論會題目叫好像很好聽叫做代孕制度N種可能但事實上整個座談只有一種聲音就是反對代孕入法\n\n18\n00:06:43,248 --> 00:07:04,541\n根本沒有所謂的N種可能這就是民進黨婦女部數十年的態度有少數幾位如今已經是大佬級的女性主義者不斷的反對洗腦無血無淚無心肝完全無視於全世界文明的進步早就很多國家允許代孕我要講的是更離譜的\n\n19\n00:07:06,785 --> 00:07:27,881\n當時即將就任衛福部次長的林靜儀也出席了這個活動。他非但沒有為這個已經出爐的衛福部的主張做出積極的捍衛,而且還唱反調。這樣子他可以擔任政務官嗎?院長、部長可以嗎?他可以擔任政務官嗎?\n\n20\n00:07:29,329 --> 00:07:53,685\n你這對於這次缺藥的事情,林次長甚至他的發言非常的情緒,他對醫護人員的訴求,他竟然說站著講話的人不腰疼,類似這樣的說法。部長,我當時有要請你回去約束他,您做了嗎?一個次長講這個話,您做了嗎?缺藥,今天還在解決,還沒解決勒。你沒告訴他,對不對?\n\n21\n00:07:56,584 --> 00:07:56,604\n委員長\n\n22\n00:08:26,773 --> 00:08:52,130\n新的制度要讓它形成跟它落實我們必須考慮到很多像這件事情呢社會遇到跟以前不同的問題我們必須面對我會告訴你為什麼我們已經做了非常久的功夫邱部長三個月上任的時候您公開對外宣示開放代理母要拼年底這個送到立法院而且用最快的速度處理請問部長你還記得這件事嗎你還記得這件事嗎您記得吧\n\n23\n00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:58,641\n我完全非常了解\n\n24\n00:09:19,763 --> 00:09:26,569\n您還說在臺灣合乎這個倫理原則下,規劃完善的法規制度以及人文關懷,帶給國人新的生機,政府應該勇於面對謹慎研議國家的處理方向。這個論點我百分之百的認同。\n\n25\n00:09:46,187 --> 00:10:02,183\n您就請你堅守在這個態度上。2017年的態度跟現在的態度應該是一樣的。好,謝謝部長,謝謝你。那下一張,衛福部近期公布的人工生殖法修正版。距離前一次是2016年,其實再度衛福部的版本一直都包括代孕。\n\n26\n00:10:02,944 --> 00:10:03,684\n委員每個人都有不同的價值\n\n27\n00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:39,389\n委員你身為委員所以我們在這裡對話,但是要形成一個制度,除了在國會聽取委員的意見,我也必須聽聽社會的意見。不會那麼慢。數十年來這個院板都要經過性評會,這是我的重點。也數十次在那裡卡關,最近一次是2016年,當時政策親口告訴我說性評會少數人有意見。\n\n28\n00:10:57,409 --> 00:11:20,401\n小數集會東風苛舊充滿偏見充滿被害妄想症的女性主義者例如黃淑英長期以來主導了性平衛請問院長性平衛只是個資義小組欸性平衛有民意基礎嗎性平衛是太上皇機關嗎性平衛有權力可以無限上綱嗎為什麼代理法院需要經過性平衛的同意呢\n\n29\n00:11:22,130 --> 00:11:43,405\n委員你應該知道在5月14號這個修正草案已經公告在公告的期間當然會聽到更多社會的聲音但是它已經進入到整個法的程序裡面來這應該是大家共同努力的一個方向跟進度院長院長請記得喔是你在當家還是姓平會在當家請你要記得這件事情台灣是人民在當家\n\n30\n00:11:43,985 --> 00:11:44,906\n臺灣女人連線臺灣女人連線臺灣女人連線臺灣女人連線臺灣女人連線\n\n31\n00:12:10,775 --> 00:12:36,033\n這個臺灣女人連線這個團體竟然對外公開徵求美名為小編實為網軍要投書反代孕的文章如此思想偏激言行令人不齒的人竟然長期擔任行政院的性評委委員院長這太離譜了我再提醒院長院長你要當全民的院長不要讓黃淑英爬到你的頭上\n\n32\n00:12:37,284 --> 00:12:42,273\n不要讓她來一個人否決攸關人權跟國安的法案。\n\n33\n00:12:43,598 --> 00:13:08,369\n委員報告行政院整個體制是有規矩的,我們會照規矩,照法定的權限來進行所有相關的政策跟法案。為什麼我們會擔心法案除了行政院,除了黃淑英之外,報上這些團體,就是所謂的反代孕的這個婦權團體,其實都被黃淑英去影響了。他們都有成員代表,在行政院信憑會,我先跟你報告,在謝長廷立黨時代,我也是那個婦權會的代表。\n\n34\n00:13:09,489 --> 00:13:20,418\n過去就是因為少數信憑委員堅持反對,綁架整個信憑會,讓法案永遠出不了行政院。例如今年3月6日,行政院信憑會的第30次會議的會前會,\n\n35\n00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:25,901\n我可不可以知道,院長,你怎麼處理這些事情?\n\n36\n00:13:48,640 --> 00:14:10,961\n報告委員,我始終相信任何政策的討論都應該開放而且經過民主的程序,廣納不同的意見。我讓你看這張3月6號行政院性評會會選會的記錄,你可以看到黃淑英用一個臨時動議就試圖把代孕關在衛福部內,連法案送到性評會的機會都封殺掉。\n\n37\n00:14:13,418 --> 00:14:42,131\n這個決議很離譜,他說作為未來的決策參考,信憑會是決策機關嗎?怎麼會需要按照信憑會的建議補充相關資料,再給信憑會做決議呢?決策呢?這根本是為反而反啊。用各種行政來杯葛這個封殺法案。我必須再次強調,信憑會不是決策機關,它只是個諮議會。它可以建議,但是它不能告訴行政院,你要怎麼做,你不可以怎麼做。\n\n38\n00:14:44,025 --> 00:14:56,196\n院長你不認為這個會議紀錄非常離譜嗎?在會前會就把它封殺了。如果只是作為未來決策之參考,那我們會列為參考。封殺啦!他連會議agenda都不讓他上去啊。\n\n39\n00:14:59,943 --> 00:15:25,649\n我幫部長來複習一下從衛生署時代到現在衛福部長期以來都是支持的代孕法制化1996年行政院有開放兩個版本加以兩版一版就是開放先天日子工發育不全當時被稱為就是成招之條款2004年9月陳建仁為了代孕舉行臺灣第一次的公民會議這公民是通過代孕的20年前\n\n40\n00:15:26,810 --> 00:15:33,937\n2010年7月國建署舉行了兩天的國際研討會,邀請先行的國家,像英國、美國,他們的當事人跟專家來臺灣分享討論。\n\n41\n00:15:37,298 --> 00:16:04,355\n2012年國建署邱署長為了待遇議題再度舉行了第二次的公民會議結論是要求盡快通過待遇而且政府需要積極介入這個運作好2010年、2013年、2015年國建署舉行了三次國家級的民調都是一面倒的支持大約八成然後前一次國建署是在2016年就是民進黨執政之前再度提出待遇法案\n\n42\n00:16:05,595 --> 00:16:14,245\n而且從1996年開始,大概立法委員們舉行了將近20次的公聽會,這個公報可以查詢。以上佐證,院長我要告訴你,\n\n43\n00:16:16,058 --> 00:16:22,059\n請問院長,有哪一個民生法案需要經過如此長久的折騰呢?20年前待運就通過了公民會議的支持,如今你還面臨少子化國安問題,你不是應該跟家屬成全這些願意生養孩子的家庭嗎?院長,實在咱們一樣,事變過程不夠嗎?\n\n44\n00:16:46,127 --> 00:17:03,747\n所以我們經過那麼多年的努力,各方的意見即使現在還在整合,但是這個修法已經上路,它已經在程序當中了。我們是不是回到這個程序裡面,大家互相再來做更多溝通、說服以及互相諒解體認的工作呢?\n\n45\n00:17:04,502 --> 00:17:30,716\n院長我剛剛一再的強調我們做了30年,你還要誰在諒解呢?那些人就是少數的一撮人啊!那我也感謝衛福部提出來嘛,你可以看到嘛,衛福部一直都是支持的嘛!但是為什麼你送進民會就否決呢?他是決策機關嗎?他只是治癒機構而已啊!我一生不想被多少政府機關聘為治癒委員會的委員啊!我們也是一個建議案啊!我想我們已經在\n\n46\n00:17:32,964 --> 00:17:42,073\n我今天大概沒有空跟大家解釋什麼叫公民會議,但是我覺得身為政治人物也請兩位做一下功課,因為陳建仁首長非常熟悉,因為他幫我舉行了第一次公民會議。\n\n47\n00:17:56,047 --> 00:18:15,942\n我簡單的說一次兩次公民會議的結論第一次公民會議是2004年9月陳建仁署長任令同意有條件開放待運當然有條件是沒有問題什麼事都要有條件的第二次公民會議是2012年的9月我唸一下簡單的結論不應委託者同時提供健康的精或軟質待運因\n\n48\n00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:47,266\n公民會議,請兩位所長記得公民會議,這是一個審議式的民主,很多先進國家採用的一個方法,就是對於有爭議的政策去做討論,然後最後做出的結論。\n\n49\n00:18:49,022 --> 00:19:15,563\n好部長院長這就是2010年13年15年國建署的民調你們可以大概簡單看這個資料都可以查六成的人民支持那麼久以前哦兩成的人不反對也就是有八成的臺灣人民在十幾年前就可以接受代孕法治化如今的社會只會更開放更多元啊難道民意會走回頭路嗎\n\n50\n00:19:16,721 --> 00:19:17,961\n看他舉案的過程跟他怎麼樣詢問答案。\n\n51\n00:19:45,554 --> 00:19:57,311\n議員長,國家的民調你不相信嗎?我說取樣的過程,民間的民調也要看他取樣的過程,跟我們政府所做的是不是一樣。那我可不可以請問你,至少國家的民調是可信啊?\n\n52\n00:19:58,163 --> 00:20:26,700\n我們相信政府所作的民調。國家的民調欸!你國內不要聽那你...對啊,我們相信政府所作的民調。這個是國建署的民調。因為它是主責單位嘛。好,院長,來,如前面我所說的,我們來看看中央社報導說,主委院長您擔任這個首任閣僱啦,就是要執行總統的議制嘛,賴總統。那就人工生殖法的部分,我先來向您說明賴總統的議制是什麼。好,院長、部長,你們知道賴清德總統是大運法案的先行者嗎?\n\n53\n00:20:28,220 --> 00:20:49,931\n二十二年前賴清德立委提出的大運法案,蕭美琴立委跟陳其美委都連署了,相當罕見的,總計提案人數,連署人數超過30位,這代表什麼?代理運募是人權問題,是民生問題,是無關政治意識形態的。二十二年前這份\n\n54\n00:20:50,971 --> 00:21:05,639\n提案總說明書寫著,當時有她持空背景,一個人不管是先天或後天的原因缺乏了傳宗接代所必須的生殖要素,這是不可彌補的身體缺陷,應該被公平地視為生殖機能上的障礙者。\n\n55\n00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:07,140\n好,我們繼續看。\n\n56\n00:21:38,268 --> 00:21:54,668\n從這張圖左邊可以看到賴總統跟現任的范遜麗監委當時多麼的努力對人工生殖法草案做了功課他們調查了225位立委的看法當時國民黨民進黨新黨立委都認為國內對代理業務的需求是需要\n\n57\n00:21:55,868 --> 00:22:21,310\n大於不需要其中民進黨立委認同度還最高呢56%好又圖是去年夏天來我辦公室採訪代孕議席兩位武林高中生他們今年要上大學了他們特地跑來告訴我在參加今年的成大經濟系跟台大法律系的徵試他們都徵試成功了面試老師竟然不約而同的選擇代孕作為徵試的主題\n\n58\n00:22:23,392 --> 00:22:47,477\n台大法律系我尚可理解,法案嘛。陳大經濟系實在讓人驚豔。另外今年3月我也應邀麗山高中的邀請去演講待遇。教務務主任還特別跑來告訴我說,這可是學生自己安排自己邀約的。我認為這再再都顯示這個待遇已經受到國人,包括年輕學子的高度關注。\n\n59\n00:22:48,519 --> 00:23:13,373\n好,30年來醫學快速進展,我們有新藥新科技,罹患這個癌症或者寒病不再是沒有生路,三天前我們也通過了再生醫療雙法,但人工生殖法跟醫療科技一直有一道人為的鴻溝跨不過去,讓子宮有病變的女性始終看不見曙光,我們的感受是子宮缺陷,\n\n60\n00:23:14,807 --> 00:23:41,212\n不是沒救,是不肯救。不是沒救,是不肯救。臺灣第一個屍管嬰兒誕生於民國74年,1985年,到今天是39年了。而且臺灣的人工生殖技術是非常的進步成熟。科技的目的本來就是幫助人民追求幸福,達成心願。但性平衛反代孕的少數成員竟然夾持政府,要求病人接受命運。\n\n61\n00:23:43,211 --> 00:24:08,445\n所以有資源就迴避命運,迴避他的禁令在國內私下進行代孕,是的沒錯,在國內私下進行,包括我自己。或一直哀求我或是拜託我幫他找代孕者,有財力的人就到國外去做代孕。反對者說代孕需求者是剝削社經地位的女性,請問不孕還有分富貴高低嗎?\n\n62\n00:24:12,085 --> 00:24:39,820\n如果臺灣繼續禁止那才是真正剝削無權無勢的不運者因為很多人都沒有錢到國外做回到現在的人工生殖法院長部長你們知道有多落伍嗎只包含了捐金捐卵近20年竟然沒有實質的修法除了反對者的刻薄冷血行政的這個怠惰我實在沒有其他形容詞了我想請問捐金捐卵衍生的問題會少於待遇嗎\n\n63\n00:24:41,226 --> 00:25:00,862\n院長你知道相對容易的捐金完全沒有追蹤報告這是後果不堪這個不堪設想嗎再來反對者事不甘己的要求不孕者去收養孩子請問臺灣收養的有追蹤分析跟評估報告嗎院長部長你知道臺灣收養終止率有多高嗎\n\n64\n00:25:02,503 --> 00:25:22,362\n我告訴你,包括你的師父就是啊,臺灣中養這個,收養終止率有多高嗎?57%你可以去社家主查。多麼可怕,比離婚率還高欸。想收養就自己去收養嘛,不要一天到晚呼叫別人去收養小孩。收養跟不孕是兩碼事,好,不相關。\n\n65\n00:25:24,602 --> 00:25:50,211\n我不服氣但願通過兩次嚴謹的公民會議但相關法案卻長期被擱置這是偏見也是歧視我今天再度代表那些只能默默哭泣的需求者在國會殿堂提出最嚴重的抗議沒有精子沒有卵子我們尚且伸出援手子宮有病變沒有功能不救嗎請問院長病人有分高低嗎\n\n66\n00:25:52,366 --> 00:26:19,458\n委員,我很願意理解委員的狀況,而且很多相同國人或許也同樣的狀況。那我們願意進到法的這個程序裡面來,盡快把它做得更周延圓滿,成為一個進步的法律。委員長,我相信你。邱部長,你是身為很多人尊敬的醫師啦。我想請部長就常理回答。今天如果有一位罹患先進性子宮發育不全或是後天有病變,但是渴望生小孩的女性出現在你的門診,\n\n67\n00:26:20,698 --> 00:26:37,398\n你會跟他說,你原本就要被社會淘汰啊,棄嬰很可憐啊,你又發揮大愛去收養棄嬰啊,你自己生不出來幹嘛寄予別人子宮啊,不孕不是病啊,你需要的是心理治療啊,人生不能什麼都想要啊,需求待遇哪不是人權是慾望,部長你會這樣回答他嗎?\n\n68\n00:26:39,130 --> 00:26:42,752\n我已經被這些話,多數來自所謂活躍的女性主義者,霸凌了將近30年。\n\n69\n00:27:03,578 --> 00:27:31,612\n要求大運的病人公開是很困難,這也為什麼這麼多年來只有我跟藝人小嫻公開自己的身體機密。院長部長,這些子宮有病病人他們躲在黑暗的角落裡哭泣啊,很難被聽到,就好像過去的同性伴侶一樣。兩位首長,他們的悲傷跟期待你們聽到了嗎?不要把他打入絕症,明明有救。院長,我們真的要逼我們人民到國外去求救嗎?\n\n70\n00:27:36,698 --> 00:27:58,654\n請問部長,您知道上面的法條條文是哪個版本嗎?這21條規範當中哪些人可以委託代理母?第一,異性戀夫妻當中的妻子無子宮或子宮有病變或懷孕有危及生命時。第二,瘦素配偶雙方均為男性,也就是男男同志。第三,女女同志配偶雙方均無子宮或子宮有病變或懷孕有危及生命之餘。\n\n71\n00:28:00,748 --> 00:28:03,009\n我其實感到這個版本的時候我非常的感動。\n\n72\n00:28:20,441 --> 00:28:20,481\n﹚陳昭姿\n\n73\n00:28:52,422 --> 00:28:52,622\n陳昭姿\n\n74\n00:29:08,988 --> 00:29:09,048\n﹚陳昭姿﹚\n\n75\n00:29:33,252 --> 00:29:58,366\n我來看這張好嗎?下一張這個圖。院長我再說一次。520南下的時候我和賴總統相談甚歡。我先恭喜總統然後問總統說你還繼續支持我的待遇嗎?他笑咪咪的回答我當然支持待遇。你不是一直也告訴別人我20幾年前就支持你的待遇嗎?當時有民進黨的立委許智傑還有我們三黨三位民進黨同行都可以作證。\n\n76\n00:30:00,850 --> 00:30:29,760\n總統無細言軍無細言我當然不會錄音我的好朋友的音但是他確實這樣告訴我了那所以你們看到了賴立委跟賴總統他的意志就是支持代孕這個合法化兩位首長的態度是不是要貫徹賴總統的意志最後只有一句話將心比心成全別人追求幸福是人生的最高境界將心比心成全別人追求幸福是人生\n\n77\n00:30:33,809 --> 00:30:34,773\n謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7359\t15065\t謝謝院長。 有請卓院長跟衛福部邱部長。再請卓院長備詢。 也請邱部長備詢。陳國元好。\n24952\t46769\t院長部長好恭喜兩位上任新職也謝謝你們願意承擔重責大任最近臺灣刮起了一陣黃仁勳的旋風大家都知道他在世界AI的產業大放異彩把臺灣再次帶上全世界的舞臺他是臺灣之光院長部長你們認同嗎黃仁勳是臺灣之光你們認同嗎\n53052\t81365\t我昨天有到Computex現場去雖然執行長不在但是很多我們的廠商跟國際的大廠都在那裡我有一個感覺如果我們的廠商這樣的合作放在整個臺灣社會大家都充分來合作那真的是臺灣的光榮我們一定要強到這個臺灣的光榮感是的他是臺灣之光那麼院長部長知道黃仁勳的輝達公司被評比為代孕福利最佳的企業嗎?\n83220\t100598\t我覺得進步的思想跟潮流都應該值得鼓勵。她在官網上寫著,發展家庭的決定是一個重大的決定。在您生命中最重要的時刻之一,無論您走哪一條路,我們都會在這裡為您提供資源。資源可用於收養、生育。\n101218\t107162\t在這裡讓兩位所長知道。好,回頭看我們的臺灣。待遇母法制化卻被一小撮人長期的醜化成物化、工具化、剝削女性。\n129059\t147270\t那難道臺灣這幫黃仁勳先生也是幫兇嗎?我認為臺灣不能再被這一小撮人綁住所以我今天要跟院長部長深入的討論一下這個被黃仁勳先生用來造福員工的代孕制度\n149588\t172726\t院長部長我是一位先天性子宮發育不全的病人那因為我跟我先生都有醫學背景所以我們毫無困難的去執行這個代孕但是為什麼做了一半之後又放棄了呢主動站出來挑戰政府因為當時的這個政府就是衛生署的時代他是違憲的他用行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人執行代孕\n174029\t196806\t甚至威脅說要吊銷醫師執照。我們不忍心看到其他沒有資源的人躲在暗夜哭泣。我個人倡議代孕解禁將近30年的時間。20多年前我也正式收養了孩子。我們的一家三戶感情非常好。我進入國會主要的目標就是要推動代孕解禁。\n198228\t209762\t希望能夠幫助先天性或後天性職工有病變或是因為某一些疾病他這個懷孕有風險甚至包括蔡政府時代允許的這個同婚家庭\n211321\t229207\t院長您是民進黨內大家人稱的大師兄,大家都說院長您身段柔軟,善於調和、鼎爛。副總統也非常地稱讚您,說您善於溝通、協調,具有創新的思維來面對所有的問題。 院長您自認為是否合乎這樣的評價?\n230307\t259667\t不敢當,我只是經常揣摩彼此共同的想法跟意見,那盡量把它拉到距離更接近,我只能做這樣的努力,不敢當。院長謙虛了,我是相信這些觀察都是事實了。那中央社的標題直指卓院長,您是因為擔任賴總統的首任的閣揆,那他負責執行賴總統的議制,那我稍後會用證據來說明賴總統對於代孕制度這件事的意志是什麼?\n263188\t283275\t這張圖片是我在這個3月26號總質詢的時候陳建仁院長再度清楚的多次表達要支持代孕因為這個法案有關生養育權以及當時始料未及的這個少子化國安的這個問題\n285015\t305866\t五月三時,您拜訪民眾黨黨團的時候,我也向您請教了,陳前院長任內所提出來的人工生殖法案的修法版本的態度,您的態度為何?院長,您當時有回覆我說,基本上政策應該要延續,除非有重大的一個理由。請問院長,您當天的承諾還在嗎?\n307447\t328159\t當然一樣。謝謝院長。 政策是應該延續,何況是同一個政黨來執政。陳建元在2004年的時候,當時他是衛生署署長,他很成功辦了第一次的公民會議。公民會議的結論是允許代孕,代孕有條件通過。\n329119\t352434\t那麼到今天,那是20年前的事,到今天已經落後的這個先進國家數十名的人工生殖法案,請院長務必要堅定立場,讓臺灣迎頭趕上。何況臺灣的人工生殖科技是非常的進步,加上從2016年民進黨執政以來,那個出生人口數從20萬每年向下1萬,到去年的13萬多。\n353655\t353775\t是的。\n376141\t402468\t但是院長我非常遺憾的發現在這個衛福部正式病人需求看到少子化的這個危機推出這個代孕法制化的修法草案的同時民進黨的性評部卻在5月16號召開了這左邊這張圖的討論會題目叫好像很好聽叫做代孕制度N種可能但事實上整個座談只有一種聲音就是反對代孕入法\n403248\t424541\t根本沒有所謂的N種可能這就是民進黨婦女部數十年的態度有少數幾位如今已經是大佬級的女性主義者不斷的反對洗腦無血無淚無心肝完全無視於全世界文明的進步早就很多國家允許代孕我要講的是更離譜的\n426785\t447881\t當時即將就任衛福部次長的林靜儀也出席了這個活動。他非但沒有為這個已經出爐的衛福部的主張做出積極的捍衛,而且還唱反調。這樣子他可以擔任政務官嗎?院長、部長可以嗎?他可以擔任政務官嗎?\n449329\t473685\t你這對於這次缺藥的事情,林次長甚至他的發言非常的情緒,他對醫護人員的訴求,他竟然說站著講話的人不腰疼,類似這樣的說法。部長,我當時有要請你回去約束他,您做了嗎?一個次長講這個話,您做了嗎?缺藥,今天還在解決,還沒解決勒。你沒告訴他,對不對?\n476584\t476604\t委員長\n506773\t532130\t新的制度要讓它形成跟它落實我們必須考慮到很多像這件事情呢社會遇到跟以前不同的問題我們必須面對我會告訴你為什麼我們已經做了非常久的功夫邱部長三個月上任的時候您公開對外宣示開放代理母要拼年底這個送到立法院而且用最快的速度處理請問部長你還記得這件事嗎你還記得這件事嗎您記得吧\n537520\t538641\t我完全非常了解\n559763\t566569\t您還說在臺灣合乎這個倫理原則下,規劃完善的法規制度以及人文關懷,帶給國人新的生機,政府應該勇於面對謹慎研議國家的處理方向。 這個論點我百分之百的認同。\n586187\t602183\t您就請你堅守在這個態度上。2017年的態度跟現在的態度應該是一樣的。好,謝謝部長,謝謝你。那下一張,衛福部近期公布的人工生殖法修正版。距離前一次是2016年,其實再度衛福部的版本一直都包括代孕。\n602944\t603684\t委員每個人都有不同的價值\n628120\t639389\t委員你身為委員所以我們在這裡對話,但是要形成一個制度,除了在國會聽取委員的意見,我也必須聽聽社會的意見。 不會那麼慢。數十年來這個院板都要經過性評會,這是我的重點。也數十次在那裡卡關,最近一次是2016年,當時政策親口告訴我說性評會少數人有意見。\n657409\t680401\t小數集會東風苛舊充滿偏見充滿被害妄想症的女性主義者例如黃淑英長期以來主導了性平衛請問院長性平衛只是個資義小組欸性平衛有民意基礎嗎性平衛是太上皇機關嗎性平衛有權力可以無限上綱嗎為什麼代理法院需要經過性平衛的同意呢\n682130\t703405\t委員你應該知道在5月14號這個修正草案已經公告在公告的期間當然會聽到更多社會的聲音但是它已經進入到整個法的程序裡面來這應該是大家共同努力的一個方向跟進度院長院長請記得喔是你在當家還是姓平會在當家請你要記得這件事情台灣是人民在當家\n703985\t704906\t臺灣女人連線 臺灣女人連線 臺灣女人連線 臺灣女人連線 臺灣女人連線\n730775\t756033\t這個臺灣女人連線這個團體竟然對外公開徵求美名為小編實為網軍要投書反代孕的文章如此思想偏激言行令人不齒的人竟然長期擔任行政院的性評委委員院長這太離譜了我再提醒院長院長你要當全民的院長不要讓黃淑英爬到你的頭上\n757284\t762273\t不要讓她來一個人否決攸關人權跟國安的法案。\n763598\t788369\t委員報告行政院整個體制是有規矩的,我們會照規矩,照法定的權限來進行所有相關的政策跟法案。為什麼我們會擔心法案除了行政院,除了黃淑英之外,報上這些團體,就是所謂的反代孕的這個婦權團體,其實都被黃淑英去影響了。他們都有成員代表,在行政院信憑會,我先跟你報告,在謝長廷立黨時代,我也是那個婦權會的代表。\n789489\t800418\t過去就是因為少數信憑委員堅持反對,綁架整個信憑會,讓法案永遠出不了行政院。例如今年3月6日,行政院信憑會的第30次會議的會前會,\n803680\t805901\t我可不可以知道,院長,你怎麼處理這些事情?\n828640\t850961\t報告委員,我始終相信任何政策的討論都應該開放而且經過民主的程序,廣納不同的意見。我讓你看這張3月6號行政院性評會會選會的記錄,你可以看到黃淑英用一個臨時動議就試圖把代孕關在衛福部內,連法案送到性評會的機會都封殺掉。\n853418\t882131\t這個決議很離譜,他說作為未來的決策參考,信憑會是決策機關嗎?怎麼會需要按照信憑會的建議補充相關資料,再給信憑會做決議呢?決策呢?這根本是為反而反啊。用各種行政來杯葛這個封殺法案。我必須再次強調,信憑會不是決策機關,它只是個諮議會。它可以建議,但是它不能告訴行政院,你要怎麼做,你不可以怎麼做。\n884025\t896196\t院長你不認為這個會議紀錄非常離譜嗎?在會前會就把它封殺了。 如果只是作為未來決策之參考,那我們會列為參考。 封殺啦!他連會議 agenda 都不讓他上去啊。\n899943\t925649\t我幫部長來複習一下從衛生署時代到現在衛福部長期以來都是支持的代孕法制化1996年行政院有開放兩個版本加以兩版一版就是開放先天日子工發育不全當時被稱為就是成招之條款2004年9月陳建仁為了代孕舉行臺灣第一次的公民會議這公民是通過代孕的20年前\n926810\t933937\t2010年7月國建署舉行了兩天的國際研討會,邀請先行的國家,像英國、美國,他們的當事人跟專家來臺灣分享討論。\n937298\t964355\t2012年國建署邱署長為了待遇議題再度舉行了第二次的公民會議結論是要求盡快通過待遇而且政府需要積極介入這個運作好2010年、2013年、2015年國建署舉行了三次國家級的民調都是一面倒的支持大約八成然後前一次國建署是在2016年就是民進黨執政之前再度提出待遇法案\n965595\t974245\t而且從1996年開始,大概立法委員們舉行了將近20次的公聽會,這個公報可以查詢。以上佐證,院長我要告訴你,\n976058\t982059\t請問院長,有哪一個民生法案需要經過如此長久的折騰呢?20年前待運就通過了公民會議的支持,如今你還面臨少子化國安問題,你不是應該跟家屬成全這些願意生養孩子的家庭嗎?院長,實在咱們一樣,事變過程不夠嗎?\n1006127\t1023747\t所以我們經過那麼多年的努力,各方的意見即使現在還在整合,但是這個修法已經上路,它已經在程序當中了。我們是不是回到這個程序裡面,大家互相再來做更多溝通、說服以及互相諒解體認的工作呢?\n1024502\t1050716\t院長我剛剛一再的強調我們做了30年,你還要誰在諒解呢?那些人就是少數的一撮人啊!那我也感謝衛福部提出來嘛,你可以看到嘛,衛福部一直都是支持的嘛!但是為什麼你送進民會就否決呢?他是決策機關嗎?他只是治癒機構而已啊!我一生不想被多少政府機關聘為治癒委員會的委員啊!我們也是一個建議案啊!我想我們已經在\n1052964\t1062073\t我今天大概沒有空跟大家解釋什麼叫公民會議,但是我覺得身為政治人物也請兩位做一下功課,因為陳建仁首長非常熟悉,因為他幫我舉行了第一次公民會議。\n1076047\t1095942\t我簡單的說一次兩次公民會議的結論第一次公民會議是2004年9月陳建仁署長任令同意有條件開放待運當然有條件是沒有問題什麼事都要有條件的第二次公民會議是2012年的9月我唸一下簡單的結論不應委託者同時提供健康的精或軟質待運因\n1097483\t1112739\t﹗\n1113240\t1127266\t公民會議,請兩位所長記得公民會議,這是一個審議式的民主,很多先進國家採用的一個方法,就是對於有爭議的政策去做討論,然後最後做出的結論。\n1129022\t1155563\t好部長院長這就是2010年13年15年國建署的民調你們可以大概簡單看這個資料都可以查六成的人民支持那麼久以前哦兩成的人不反對也就是有八成的臺灣人民在十幾年前就可以接受代孕法治化如今的社會只會更開放更多元啊難道民意會走回頭路嗎\n1156721\t1157961\t看他舉案的過程跟他怎麼樣詢問答案。\n1185554\t1197311\t議員長,國家的民調你不相信嗎?我說取樣的過程,民間的民調也要看他取樣的過程,跟我們政府所做的是不是一樣。那我可不可以請問你,至少國家的民調是可信啊?\n1198163\t1226700\t我們相信政府所作的民調。國家的民調欸!你國內不要聽那你...對啊,我們相信政府所作的民調。這個是國建署的民調。因為它是主責單位嘛。好,院長,來,如前面我所說的,我們來看看中央社報導說,主委院長您擔任這個首任閣僱啦,就是要執行總統的議制嘛,賴總統。那就人工生殖法的部分,我先來向您說明賴總統的議制是什麼。好,院長、部長,你們知道賴清德總統是大運法案的先行者嗎?\n1228220\t1249931\t二十二年前賴清德立委提出的大運法案,蕭美琴立委跟陳其美委都連署了,相當罕見的,總計提案人數,連署人數超過30位,這代表什麼?代理運募是人權問題,是民生問題,是無關政治意識形態的。二十二年前這份\n1250971\t1265639\t提案總說明書寫著,當時有她持空背景,一個人不管是先天或後天的原因缺乏了傳宗接代所必須的生殖要素,這是不可彌補的身體缺陷,應該被公平地視為生殖機能上的障礙者。\n1266920\t1267140\t好,我們繼續看。\n1298268\t1314668\t從這張圖左邊可以看到賴總統跟現任的范遜麗監委當時多麼的努力對人工生殖法草案做了功課他們調查了225位立委的看法當時國民黨民進黨新黨立委都認為國內對代理業務的需求是需要\n1315868\t1341310\t大於不需要其中民進黨立委認同度還最高呢56%好 又圖是去年夏天來我辦公室採訪代孕議席兩位武林高中生他們今年要上大學了他們特地跑來告訴我在參加今年的成大經濟系跟台大法律系的徵試他們都徵試成功了面試老師竟然不約而同的選擇代孕作為徵試的主題\n1343392\t1367477\t台大法律系我尚可理解,法案嘛。陳大經濟系實在讓人驚豔。另外今年3月我也應邀麗山高中的邀請去演講待遇。教務務主任還特別跑來告訴我說,這可是學生自己安排自己邀約的。我認為這再再都顯示這個待遇已經受到國人,包括年輕學子的高度關注。\n1368519\t1393373\t好,30年來醫學快速進展,我們有新藥新科技,罹患這個癌症或者寒病不再是沒有生路,三天前我們也通過了再生醫療雙法,但人工生殖法跟醫療科技一直有一道人為的鴻溝跨不過去,讓子宮有病變的女性始終看不見曙光,我們的感受是子宮缺陷,\n1394807\t1421212\t不是沒救,是不肯救。不是沒救,是不肯救。臺灣第一個屍管嬰兒誕生於民國74年,1985年,到今天是39年了。而且臺灣的人工生殖技術是非常的進步成熟。科技的目的本來就是幫助人民追求幸福,達成心願。但性平衛反代孕的少數成員竟然夾持政府,要求病人接受命運。\n1423211\t1448445\t所以有資源就迴避命運,迴避他的禁令在國內私下進行代孕,是的沒錯,在國內私下進行,包括我自己。或一直哀求我或是拜託我幫他找代孕者,有財力的人就到國外去做代孕。反對者說代孕需求者是剝削社經地位的女性,請問不孕還有分富貴高低嗎?\n1452085\t1479820\t如果臺灣繼續禁止那才是真正剝削無權無勢的不運者因為很多人都沒有錢到國外做回到現在的人工生殖法院長部長你們知道有多落伍嗎只包含了捐金捐卵近20年竟然沒有實質的修法除了反對者的刻薄冷血行政的這個怠惰我實在沒有其他形容詞了我想請問捐金捐卵衍生的問題會少於待遇嗎\n1481226\t1500862\t院長你知道相對容易的捐金完全沒有追蹤報告這是後果不堪這個不堪設想嗎再來反對者事不甘己的要求不孕者去收養孩子請問臺灣收養的有追蹤分析跟評估報告嗎院長部長你知道臺灣收養終止率有多高嗎\n1502503\t1522362\t我告訴你,包括你的師父就是啊,臺灣中養這個,收養終止率有多高嗎?57%你可以去社家主查。多麼可怕,比離婚率還高欸。想收養就自己去收養嘛,不要一天到晚呼叫別人去收養小孩。收養跟不孕是兩碼事,好,不相關。\n1524602\t1550211\t我不服氣但願通過兩次嚴謹的公民會議但相關法案卻長期被擱置這是偏見也是歧視我今天再度代表那些只能默默哭泣的需求者在國會殿堂提出最嚴重的抗議沒有精子沒有卵子我們尚且伸出援手子宮有病變沒有功能不救嗎請問院長病人有分高低嗎\n1552366\t1579458\t委員,我很願意理解委員的狀況,而且很多相同國人或許也同樣的狀況。那我們願意進到法的這個程序裡面來,盡快把它做得更周延圓滿,成為一個進步的法律。委員長,我相信你。邱部長,你是身為很多人尊敬的醫師啦。我想請部長就常理回答。今天如果有一位罹患先進性子宮發育不全或是後天有病變,但是渴望生小孩的女性出現在你的門診,\n1580698\t1597398\t你會跟他說,你原本就要被社會淘汰啊,棄嬰很可憐啊,你又發揮大愛去收養棄嬰啊,你自己生不出來幹嘛寄予別人子宮啊,不孕不是病啊,你需要的是心理治療啊,人生不能什麼都想要啊,需求待遇哪不是人權是慾望,部長你會這樣回答他嗎?\n1599130\t1602752\t我已經被這些話,多數來自所謂活躍的女性主義者,霸凌了將近30年。\n1623578\t1651612\t要求大運的病人公開是很困難,這也為什麼這麼多年來只有我跟藝人小嫻公開自己的身體機密。院長部長,這些子宮有病病人他們躲在黑暗的角落裡哭泣啊,很難被聽到,就好像過去的同性伴侶一樣。兩位首長,他們的悲傷跟期待你們聽到了嗎?不要把他打入絕症,明明有救。院長,我們真的要逼我們人民到國外去求救嗎?\n1656698\t1678654\t請問部長,您知道上面的法條條文是哪個版本嗎?這21條規範當中哪些人可以委託代理母?第一,異性戀夫妻當中的妻子無子宮或子宮有病變或懷孕有危及生命時。第二,瘦素配偶雙方均為男性,也就是男男同志。第三,女女同志配偶雙方均無子宮或子宮有病變或懷孕有危及生命之餘。\n1680748\t1683009\t我其實感到這個版本的時候我非常的感動。\n1700441\t1700481\t﹚陳昭姿\n1732422\t1732622\t陳昭姿\n1748988\t1749048\t﹚陳昭姿﹚\n1773252\t1798366\t我來看這張好嗎?下一張這個圖。 院長我再說一次。520南下的時候我和賴總統相談甚歡。我先恭喜總統然後問總統說你還繼續支持我的待遇嗎?他笑咪咪的回答我當然支持待遇。你不是一直也告訴別人我20幾年前就支持你的待遇嗎?當時有民進黨的立委許智傑還有我們三黨三位民進黨同行都可以作證。\n1800850\t1829760\t總統無細言軍無細言我當然不會錄音我的好朋友的音但是他確實這樣告訴我了那所以你們看到了賴立委跟賴總統他的意志就是支持代孕這個合法化兩位首長的態度是不是要貫徹賴總統的意志最後只有一句話將心比心成全別人追求幸福是人生的最高境界將心比心成全別人追求幸福是人生\n1833809\t1834773\t謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。\n","txt":"謝謝院長。 有請卓院長跟衛福部邱部長。再請卓院長備詢。 也請邱部長備詢。陳國元好。\n院長部長好恭喜兩位上任新職也謝謝你們願意承擔重責大任最近臺灣刮起了一陣黃仁勳的旋風大家都知道他在世界AI的產業大放異彩把臺灣再次帶上全世界的舞臺他是臺灣之光院長部長你們認同嗎黃仁勳是臺灣之光你們認同嗎\n我昨天有到Computex現場去雖然執行長不在但是很多我們的廠商跟國際的大廠都在那裡我有一個感覺如果我們的廠商這樣的合作放在整個臺灣社會大家都充分來合作那真的是臺灣的光榮我們一定要強到這個臺灣的光榮感是的他是臺灣之光那麼院長部長知道黃仁勳的輝達公司被評比為代孕福利最佳的企業嗎?\n我覺得進步的思想跟潮流都應該值得鼓勵。她在官網上寫著,發展家庭的決定是一個重大的決定。在您生命中最重要的時刻之一,無論您走哪一條路,我們都會在這裡為您提供資源。資源可用於收養、生育。\n在這裡讓兩位所長知道。好,回頭看我們的臺灣。待遇母法制化卻被一小撮人長期的醜化成物化、工具化、剝削女性。\n那難道臺灣這幫黃仁勳先生也是幫兇嗎?我認為臺灣不能再被這一小撮人綁住所以我今天要跟院長部長深入的討論一下這個被黃仁勳先生用來造福員工的代孕制度\n院長部長我是一位先天性子宮發育不全的病人那因為我跟我先生都有醫學背景所以我們毫無困難的去執行這個代孕但是為什麼做了一半之後又放棄了呢主動站出來挑戰政府因為當時的這個政府就是衛生署的時代他是違憲的他用行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人執行代孕\n甚至威脅說要吊銷醫師執照。我們不忍心看到其他沒有資源的人躲在暗夜哭泣。我個人倡議代孕解禁將近30年的時間。20多年前我也正式收養了孩子。我們的一家三戶感情非常好。我進入國會主要的目標就是要推動代孕解禁。\n希望能夠幫助先天性或後天性職工有病變或是因為某一些疾病他這個懷孕有風險甚至包括蔡政府時代允許的這個同婚家庭\n院長您是民進黨內大家人稱的大師兄,大家都說院長您身段柔軟,善於調和、鼎爛。副總統也非常地稱讚您,說您善於溝通、協調,具有創新的思維來面對所有的問題。 院長您自認為是否合乎這樣的評價?\n不敢當,我只是經常揣摩彼此共同的想法跟意見,那盡量把它拉到距離更接近,我只能做這樣的努力,不敢當。院長謙虛了,我是相信這些觀察都是事實了。那中央社的標題直指卓院長,您是因為擔任賴總統的首任的閣揆,那他負責執行賴總統的議制,那我稍後會用證據來說明賴總統對於代孕制度這件事的意志是什麼?\n這張圖片是我在這個3月26號總質詢的時候陳建仁院長再度清楚的多次表達要支持代孕因為這個法案有關生養育權以及當時始料未及的這個少子化國安的這個問題\n五月三時,您拜訪民眾黨黨團的時候,我也向您請教了,陳前院長任內所提出來的人工生殖法案的修法版本的態度,您的態度為何?院長,您當時有回覆我說,基本上政策應該要延續,除非有重大的一個理由。請問院長,您當天的承諾還在嗎?\n當然一樣。謝謝院長。 政策是應該延續,何況是同一個政黨來執政。陳建元在2004年的時候,當時他是衛生署署長,他很成功辦了第一次的公民會議。公民會議的結論是允許代孕,代孕有條件通過。\n那麼到今天,那是20年前的事,到今天已經落後的這個先進國家數十名的人工生殖法案,請院長務必要堅定立場,讓臺灣迎頭趕上。何況臺灣的人工生殖科技是非常的進步,加上從2016年民進黨執政以來,那個出生人口數從20萬每年向下1萬,到去年的13萬多。\n是的。\n但是院長我非常遺憾的發現在這個衛福部正式病人需求看到少子化的這個危機推出這個代孕法制化的修法草案的同時民進黨的性評部卻在5月16號召開了這左邊這張圖的討論會題目叫好像很好聽叫做代孕制度N種可能但事實上整個座談只有一種聲音就是反對代孕入法\n根本沒有所謂的N種可能這就是民進黨婦女部數十年的態度有少數幾位如今已經是大佬級的女性主義者不斷的反對洗腦無血無淚無心肝完全無視於全世界文明的進步早就很多國家允許代孕我要講的是更離譜的\n當時即將就任衛福部次長的林靜儀也出席了這個活動。他非但沒有為這個已經出爐的衛福部的主張做出積極的捍衛,而且還唱反調。這樣子他可以擔任政務官嗎?院長、部長可以嗎?他可以擔任政務官嗎?\n你這對於這次缺藥的事情,林次長甚至他的發言非常的情緒,他對醫護人員的訴求,他竟然說站著講話的人不腰疼,類似這樣的說法。部長,我當時有要請你回去約束他,您做了嗎?一個次長講這個話,您做了嗎?缺藥,今天還在解決,還沒解決勒。你沒告訴他,對不對?\n委員長\n新的制度要讓它形成跟它落實我們必須考慮到很多像這件事情呢社會遇到跟以前不同的問題我們必須面對我會告訴你為什麼我們已經做了非常久的功夫邱部長三個月上任的時候您公開對外宣示開放代理母要拼年底這個送到立法院而且用最快的速度處理請問部長你還記得這件事嗎你還記得這件事嗎您記得吧\n我完全非常了解\n您還說在臺灣合乎這個倫理原則下,規劃完善的法規制度以及人文關懷,帶給國人新的生機,政府應該勇於面對謹慎研議國家的處理方向。 這個論點我百分之百的認同。\n您就請你堅守在這個態度上。2017年的態度跟現在的態度應該是一樣的。好,謝謝部長,謝謝你。那下一張,衛福部近期公布的人工生殖法修正版。距離前一次是2016年,其實再度衛福部的版本一直都包括代孕。\n委員每個人都有不同的價值\n委員你身為委員所以我們在這裡對話,但是要形成一個制度,除了在國會聽取委員的意見,我也必須聽聽社會的意見。 不會那麼慢。數十年來這個院板都要經過性評會,這是我的重點。也數十次在那裡卡關,最近一次是2016年,當時政策親口告訴我說性評會少數人有意見。\n小數集會東風苛舊充滿偏見充滿被害妄想症的女性主義者例如黃淑英長期以來主導了性平衛請問院長性平衛只是個資義小組欸性平衛有民意基礎嗎性平衛是太上皇機關嗎性平衛有權力可以無限上綱嗎為什麼代理法院需要經過性平衛的同意呢\n委員你應該知道在5月14號這個修正草案已經公告在公告的期間當然會聽到更多社會的聲音但是它已經進入到整個法的程序裡面來這應該是大家共同努力的一個方向跟進度院長院長請記得喔是你在當家還是姓平會在當家請你要記得這件事情台灣是人民在當家\n臺灣女人連線 臺灣女人連線 臺灣女人連線 臺灣女人連線 臺灣女人連線\n這個臺灣女人連線這個團體竟然對外公開徵求美名為小編實為網軍要投書反代孕的文章如此思想偏激言行令人不齒的人竟然長期擔任行政院的性評委委員院長這太離譜了我再提醒院長院長你要當全民的院長不要讓黃淑英爬到你的頭上\n不要讓她來一個人否決攸關人權跟國安的法案。\n委員報告行政院整個體制是有規矩的,我們會照規矩,照法定的權限來進行所有相關的政策跟法案。為什麼我們會擔心法案除了行政院,除了黃淑英之外,報上這些團體,就是所謂的反代孕的這個婦權團體,其實都被黃淑英去影響了。他們都有成員代表,在行政院信憑會,我先跟你報告,在謝長廷立黨時代,我也是那個婦權會的代表。\n過去就是因為少數信憑委員堅持反對,綁架整個信憑會,讓法案永遠出不了行政院。例如今年3月6日,行政院信憑會的第30次會議的會前會,\n我可不可以知道,院長,你怎麼處理這些事情?\n報告委員,我始終相信任何政策的討論都應該開放而且經過民主的程序,廣納不同的意見。我讓你看這張3月6號行政院性評會會選會的記錄,你可以看到黃淑英用一個臨時動議就試圖把代孕關在衛福部內,連法案送到性評會的機會都封殺掉。\n這個決議很離譜,他說作為未來的決策參考,信憑會是決策機關嗎?怎麼會需要按照信憑會的建議補充相關資料,再給信憑會做決議呢?決策呢?這根本是為反而反啊。用各種行政來杯葛這個封殺法案。我必須再次強調,信憑會不是決策機關,它只是個諮議會。它可以建議,但是它不能告訴行政院,你要怎麼做,你不可以怎麼做。\n院長你不認為這個會議紀錄非常離譜嗎?在會前會就把它封殺了。 如果只是作為未來決策之參考,那我們會列為參考。 封殺啦!他連會議 agenda 都不讓他上去啊。\n我幫部長來複習一下從衛生署時代到現在衛福部長期以來都是支持的代孕法制化1996年行政院有開放兩個版本加以兩版一版就是開放先天日子工發育不全當時被稱為就是成招之條款2004年9月陳建仁為了代孕舉行臺灣第一次的公民會議這公民是通過代孕的20年前\n2010年7月國建署舉行了兩天的國際研討會,邀請先行的國家,像英國、美國,他們的當事人跟專家來臺灣分享討論。\n2012年國建署邱署長為了待遇議題再度舉行了第二次的公民會議結論是要求盡快通過待遇而且政府需要積極介入這個運作好2010年、2013年、2015年國建署舉行了三次國家級的民調都是一面倒的支持大約八成然後前一次國建署是在2016年就是民進黨執政之前再度提出待遇法案\n而且從1996年開始,大概立法委員們舉行了將近20次的公聽會,這個公報可以查詢。以上佐證,院長我要告訴你,\n請問院長,有哪一個民生法案需要經過如此長久的折騰呢?20年前待運就通過了公民會議的支持,如今你還面臨少子化國安問題,你不是應該跟家屬成全這些願意生養孩子的家庭嗎?院長,實在咱們一樣,事變過程不夠嗎?\n所以我們經過那麼多年的努力,各方的意見即使現在還在整合,但是這個修法已經上路,它已經在程序當中了。我們是不是回到這個程序裡面,大家互相再來做更多溝通、說服以及互相諒解體認的工作呢?\n院長我剛剛一再的強調我們做了30年,你還要誰在諒解呢?那些人就是少數的一撮人啊!那我也感謝衛福部提出來嘛,你可以看到嘛,衛福部一直都是支持的嘛!但是為什麼你送進民會就否決呢?他是決策機關嗎?他只是治癒機構而已啊!我一生不想被多少政府機關聘為治癒委員會的委員啊!我們也是一個建議案啊!我想我們已經在\n我今天大概沒有空跟大家解釋什麼叫公民會議,但是我覺得身為政治人物也請兩位做一下功課,因為陳建仁首長非常熟悉,因為他幫我舉行了第一次公民會議。\n我簡單的說一次兩次公民會議的結論第一次公民會議是2004年9月陳建仁署長任令同意有條件開放待運當然有條件是沒有問題什麼事都要有條件的第二次公民會議是2012年的9月我唸一下簡單的結論不應委託者同時提供健康的精或軟質待運因\n﹗\n公民會議,請兩位所長記得公民會議,這是一個審議式的民主,很多先進國家採用的一個方法,就是對於有爭議的政策去做討論,然後最後做出的結論。\n好部長院長這就是2010年13年15年國建署的民調你們可以大概簡單看這個資料都可以查六成的人民支持那麼久以前哦兩成的人不反對也就是有八成的臺灣人民在十幾年前就可以接受代孕法治化如今的社會只會更開放更多元啊難道民意會走回頭路嗎\n看他舉案的過程跟他怎麼樣詢問答案。\n議員長,國家的民調你不相信嗎?我說取樣的過程,民間的民調也要看他取樣的過程,跟我們政府所做的是不是一樣。那我可不可以請問你,至少國家的民調是可信啊?\n我們相信政府所作的民調。國家的民調欸!你國內不要聽那你...對啊,我們相信政府所作的民調。這個是國建署的民調。因為它是主責單位嘛。好,院長,來,如前面我所說的,我們來看看中央社報導說,主委院長您擔任這個首任閣僱啦,就是要執行總統的議制嘛,賴總統。那就人工生殖法的部分,我先來向您說明賴總統的議制是什麼。好,院長、部長,你們知道賴清德總統是大運法案的先行者嗎?\n二十二年前賴清德立委提出的大運法案,蕭美琴立委跟陳其美委都連署了,相當罕見的,總計提案人數,連署人數超過30位,這代表什麼?代理運募是人權問題,是民生問題,是無關政治意識形態的。二十二年前這份\n提案總說明書寫著,當時有她持空背景,一個人不管是先天或後天的原因缺乏了傳宗接代所必須的生殖要素,這是不可彌補的身體缺陷,應該被公平地視為生殖機能上的障礙者。\n好,我們繼續看。\n從這張圖左邊可以看到賴總統跟現任的范遜麗監委當時多麼的努力對人工生殖法草案做了功課他們調查了225位立委的看法當時國民黨民進黨新黨立委都認為國內對代理業務的需求是需要\n大於不需要其中民進黨立委認同度還最高呢56%好 又圖是去年夏天來我辦公室採訪代孕議席兩位武林高中生他們今年要上大學了他們特地跑來告訴我在參加今年的成大經濟系跟台大法律系的徵試他們都徵試成功了面試老師竟然不約而同的選擇代孕作為徵試的主題\n台大法律系我尚可理解,法案嘛。陳大經濟系實在讓人驚豔。另外今年3月我也應邀麗山高中的邀請去演講待遇。教務務主任還特別跑來告訴我說,這可是學生自己安排自己邀約的。我認為這再再都顯示這個待遇已經受到國人,包括年輕學子的高度關注。\n好,30年來醫學快速進展,我們有新藥新科技,罹患這個癌症或者寒病不再是沒有生路,三天前我們也通過了再生醫療雙法,但人工生殖法跟醫療科技一直有一道人為的鴻溝跨不過去,讓子宮有病變的女性始終看不見曙光,我們的感受是子宮缺陷,\n不是沒救,是不肯救。不是沒救,是不肯救。臺灣第一個屍管嬰兒誕生於民國74年,1985年,到今天是39年了。而且臺灣的人工生殖技術是非常的進步成熟。科技的目的本來就是幫助人民追求幸福,達成心願。但性平衛反代孕的少數成員竟然夾持政府,要求病人接受命運。\n所以有資源就迴避命運,迴避他的禁令在國內私下進行代孕,是的沒錯,在國內私下進行,包括我自己。或一直哀求我或是拜託我幫他找代孕者,有財力的人就到國外去做代孕。反對者說代孕需求者是剝削社經地位的女性,請問不孕還有分富貴高低嗎?\n如果臺灣繼續禁止那才是真正剝削無權無勢的不運者因為很多人都沒有錢到國外做回到現在的人工生殖法院長部長你們知道有多落伍嗎只包含了捐金捐卵近20年竟然沒有實質的修法除了反對者的刻薄冷血行政的這個怠惰我實在沒有其他形容詞了我想請問捐金捐卵衍生的問題會少於待遇嗎\n院長你知道相對容易的捐金完全沒有追蹤報告這是後果不堪這個不堪設想嗎再來反對者事不甘己的要求不孕者去收養孩子請問臺灣收養的有追蹤分析跟評估報告嗎院長部長你知道臺灣收養終止率有多高嗎\n我告訴你,包括你的師父就是啊,臺灣中養這個,收養終止率有多高嗎?57%你可以去社家主查。多麼可怕,比離婚率還高欸。想收養就自己去收養嘛,不要一天到晚呼叫別人去收養小孩。收養跟不孕是兩碼事,好,不相關。\n我不服氣但願通過兩次嚴謹的公民會議但相關法案卻長期被擱置這是偏見也是歧視我今天再度代表那些只能默默哭泣的需求者在國會殿堂提出最嚴重的抗議沒有精子沒有卵子我們尚且伸出援手子宮有病變沒有功能不救嗎請問院長病人有分高低嗎\n委員,我很願意理解委員的狀況,而且很多相同國人或許也同樣的狀況。那我們願意進到法的這個程序裡面來,盡快把它做得更周延圓滿,成為一個進步的法律。委員長,我相信你。邱部長,你是身為很多人尊敬的醫師啦。我想請部長就常理回答。今天如果有一位罹患先進性子宮發育不全或是後天有病變,但是渴望生小孩的女性出現在你的門診,\n你會跟他說,你原本就要被社會淘汰啊,棄嬰很可憐啊,你又發揮大愛去收養棄嬰啊,你自己生不出來幹嘛寄予別人子宮啊,不孕不是病啊,你需要的是心理治療啊,人生不能什麼都想要啊,需求待遇哪不是人權是慾望,部長你會這樣回答他嗎?\n我已經被這些話,多數來自所謂活躍的女性主義者,霸凌了將近30年。\n要求大運的病人公開是很困難,這也為什麼這麼多年來只有我跟藝人小嫻公開自己的身體機密。院長部長,這些子宮有病病人他們躲在黑暗的角落裡哭泣啊,很難被聽到,就好像過去的同性伴侶一樣。兩位首長,他們的悲傷跟期待你們聽到了嗎?不要把他打入絕症,明明有救。院長,我們真的要逼我們人民到國外去求救嗎?\n請問部長,您知道上面的法條條文是哪個版本嗎?這21條規範當中哪些人可以委託代理母?第一,異性戀夫妻當中的妻子無子宮或子宮有病變或懷孕有危及生命時。第二,瘦素配偶雙方均為男性,也就是男男同志。第三,女女同志配偶雙方均無子宮或子宮有病變或懷孕有危及生命之餘。\n我其實感到這個版本的時候我非常的感動。\n﹚陳昭姿\n陳昭姿\n﹚陳昭姿﹚\n我來看這張好嗎?下一張這個圖。 院長我再說一次。520南下的時候我和賴總統相談甚歡。我先恭喜總統然後問總統說你還繼續支持我的待遇嗎?他笑咪咪的回答我當然支持待遇。你不是一直也告訴別人我20幾年前就支持你的待遇嗎?當時有民進黨的立委許智傑還有我們三黨三位民進黨同行都可以作證。\n總統無細言軍無細言我當然不會錄音我的好朋友的音但是他確實這樣告訴我了那所以你們看到了賴立委跟賴總統他的意志就是支持代孕這個合法化兩位首長的態度是不是要貫徹賴總統的意志最後只有一句話將心比心成全別人追求幸福是人生的最高境界將心比心成全別人追求幸福是人生\n謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.359 --> 00:15.065\n謝謝院長。有請卓院長跟衛福部邱部長。再請卓院長備詢。也請邱部長備詢。陳國元好。\n\n00:24.952 --> 00:46.769\n院長部長好恭喜兩位上任新職也謝謝你們願意承擔重責大任最近臺灣刮起了一陣黃仁勳的旋風大家都知道他在世界AI的產業大放異彩把臺灣再次帶上全世界的舞臺他是臺灣之光院長部長你們認同嗎黃仁勳是臺灣之光你們認同嗎\n\n00:53.052 --> 01:21.365\n我昨天有到Computex現場去雖然執行長不在但是很多我們的廠商跟國際的大廠都在那裡我有一個感覺如果我們的廠商這樣的合作放在整個臺灣社會大家都充分來合作那真的是臺灣的光榮我們一定要強到這個臺灣的光榮感是的他是臺灣之光那麼院長部長知道黃仁勳的輝達公司被評比為代孕福利最佳的企業嗎?\n\n01:23.220 --> 01:40.598\n我覺得進步的思想跟潮流都應該值得鼓勵。她在官網上寫著,發展家庭的決定是一個重大的決定。在您生命中最重要的時刻之一,無論您走哪一條路,我們都會在這裡為您提供資源。資源可用於收養、生育。\n\n01:41.218 --> 01:47.162\n在這裡讓兩位所長知道。好,回頭看我們的臺灣。待遇母法制化卻被一小撮人長期的醜化成物化、工具化、剝削女性。\n\n02:09.059 --> 02:27.270\n那難道臺灣這幫黃仁勳先生也是幫兇嗎?我認為臺灣不能再被這一小撮人綁住所以我今天要跟院長部長深入的討論一下這個被黃仁勳先生用來造福員工的代孕制度\n\n02:29.588 --> 02:52.726\n院長部長我是一位先天性子宮發育不全的病人那因為我跟我先生都有醫學背景所以我們毫無困難的去執行這個代孕但是為什麼做了一半之後又放棄了呢主動站出來挑戰政府因為當時的這個政府就是衛生署的時代他是違憲的他用行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人執行代孕\n\n02:54.029 --> 03:16.806\n甚至威脅說要吊銷醫師執照。我們不忍心看到其他沒有資源的人躲在暗夜哭泣。我個人倡議代孕解禁將近30年的時間。20多年前我也正式收養了孩子。我們的一家三戶感情非常好。我進入國會主要的目標就是要推動代孕解禁。\n\n03:18.228 --> 03:29.762\n希望能夠幫助先天性或後天性職工有病變或是因為某一些疾病他這個懷孕有風險甚至包括蔡政府時代允許的這個同婚家庭\n\n03:31.321 --> 03:49.207\n院長您是民進黨內大家人稱的大師兄,大家都說院長您身段柔軟,善於調和、鼎爛。副總統也非常地稱讚您,說您善於溝通、協調,具有創新的思維來面對所有的問題。院長您自認為是否合乎這樣的評價?\n\n03:50.307 --> 04:19.667\n不敢當,我只是經常揣摩彼此共同的想法跟意見,那盡量把它拉到距離更接近,我只能做這樣的努力,不敢當。院長謙虛了,我是相信這些觀察都是事實了。那中央社的標題直指卓院長,您是因為擔任賴總統的首任的閣揆,那他負責執行賴總統的議制,那我稍後會用證據來說明賴總統對於代孕制度這件事的意志是什麼?\n\n04:23.188 --> 04:43.275\n這張圖片是我在這個3月26號總質詢的時候陳建仁院長再度清楚的多次表達要支持代孕因為這個法案有關生養育權以及當時始料未及的這個少子化國安的這個問題\n\n04:45.015 --> 05:05.866\n五月三時,您拜訪民眾黨黨團的時候,我也向您請教了,陳前院長任內所提出來的人工生殖法案的修法版本的態度,您的態度為何?院長,您當時有回覆我說,基本上政策應該要延續,除非有重大的一個理由。請問院長,您當天的承諾還在嗎?\n\n05:07.447 --> 05:28.159\n當然一樣。謝謝院長。政策是應該延續,何況是同一個政黨來執政。陳建元在2004年的時候,當時他是衛生署署長,他很成功辦了第一次的公民會議。公民會議的結論是允許代孕,代孕有條件通過。\n\n05:29.119 --> 05:52.434\n那麼到今天,那是20年前的事,到今天已經落後的這個先進國家數十名的人工生殖法案,請院長務必要堅定立場,讓臺灣迎頭趕上。何況臺灣的人工生殖科技是非常的進步,加上從2016年民進黨執政以來,那個出生人口數從20萬每年向下1萬,到去年的13萬多。\n\n05:53.655 --> 05:53.775\n是的。\n\n06:16.141 --> 06:42.468\n但是院長我非常遺憾的發現在這個衛福部正式病人需求看到少子化的這個危機推出這個代孕法制化的修法草案的同時民進黨的性評部卻在5月16號召開了這左邊這張圖的討論會題目叫好像很好聽叫做代孕制度N種可能但事實上整個座談只有一種聲音就是反對代孕入法\n\n06:43.248 --> 07:04.541\n根本沒有所謂的N種可能這就是民進黨婦女部數十年的態度有少數幾位如今已經是大佬級的女性主義者不斷的反對洗腦無血無淚無心肝完全無視於全世界文明的進步早就很多國家允許代孕我要講的是更離譜的\n\n07:06.785 --> 07:27.881\n當時即將就任衛福部次長的林靜儀也出席了這個活動。他非但沒有為這個已經出爐的衛福部的主張做出積極的捍衛,而且還唱反調。這樣子他可以擔任政務官嗎?院長、部長可以嗎?他可以擔任政務官嗎?\n\n07:29.329 --> 07:53.685\n你這對於這次缺藥的事情,林次長甚至他的發言非常的情緒,他對醫護人員的訴求,他竟然說站著講話的人不腰疼,類似這樣的說法。部長,我當時有要請你回去約束他,您做了嗎?一個次長講這個話,您做了嗎?缺藥,今天還在解決,還沒解決勒。你沒告訴他,對不對?\n\n07:56.584 --> 07:56.604\n委員長\n\n08:26.773 --> 08:52.130\n新的制度要讓它形成跟它落實我們必須考慮到很多像這件事情呢社會遇到跟以前不同的問題我們必須面對我會告訴你為什麼我們已經做了非常久的功夫邱部長三個月上任的時候您公開對外宣示開放代理母要拼年底這個送到立法院而且用最快的速度處理請問部長你還記得這件事嗎你還記得這件事嗎您記得吧\n\n08:57.520 --> 08:58.641\n我完全非常了解\n\n09:19.763 --> 09:26.569\n您還說在臺灣合乎這個倫理原則下,規劃完善的法規制度以及人文關懷,帶給國人新的生機,政府應該勇於面對謹慎研議國家的處理方向。這個論點我百分之百的認同。\n\n09:46.187 --> 10:02.183\n您就請你堅守在這個態度上。2017年的態度跟現在的態度應該是一樣的。好,謝謝部長,謝謝你。那下一張,衛福部近期公布的人工生殖法修正版。距離前一次是2016年,其實再度衛福部的版本一直都包括代孕。\n\n10:02.944 --> 10:03.684\n委員每個人都有不同的價值\n\n10:28.120 --> 10:39.389\n委員你身為委員所以我們在這裡對話,但是要形成一個制度,除了在國會聽取委員的意見,我也必須聽聽社會的意見。不會那麼慢。數十年來這個院板都要經過性評會,這是我的重點。也數十次在那裡卡關,最近一次是2016年,當時政策親口告訴我說性評會少數人有意見。\n\n10:57.409 --> 11:20.401\n小數集會東風苛舊充滿偏見充滿被害妄想症的女性主義者例如黃淑英長期以來主導了性平衛請問院長性平衛只是個資義小組欸性平衛有民意基礎嗎性平衛是太上皇機關嗎性平衛有權力可以無限上綱嗎為什麼代理法院需要經過性平衛的同意呢\n\n11:22.130 --> 11:43.405\n委員你應該知道在5月14號這個修正草案已經公告在公告的期間當然會聽到更多社會的聲音但是它已經進入到整個法的程序裡面來這應該是大家共同努力的一個方向跟進度院長院長請記得喔是你在當家還是姓平會在當家請你要記得這件事情台灣是人民在當家\n\n11:43.985 --> 11:44.906\n臺灣女人連線臺灣女人連線臺灣女人連線臺灣女人連線臺灣女人連線\n\n12:10.775 --> 12:36.033\n這個臺灣女人連線這個團體竟然對外公開徵求美名為小編實為網軍要投書反代孕的文章如此思想偏激言行令人不齒的人竟然長期擔任行政院的性評委委員院長這太離譜了我再提醒院長院長你要當全民的院長不要讓黃淑英爬到你的頭上\n\n12:37.284 --> 12:42.273\n不要讓她來一個人否決攸關人權跟國安的法案。\n\n12:43.598 --> 13:08.369\n委員報告行政院整個體制是有規矩的,我們會照規矩,照法定的權限來進行所有相關的政策跟法案。為什麼我們會擔心法案除了行政院,除了黃淑英之外,報上這些團體,就是所謂的反代孕的這個婦權團體,其實都被黃淑英去影響了。他們都有成員代表,在行政院信憑會,我先跟你報告,在謝長廷立黨時代,我也是那個婦權會的代表。\n\n13:09.489 --> 13:20.418\n過去就是因為少數信憑委員堅持反對,綁架整個信憑會,讓法案永遠出不了行政院。例如今年3月6日,行政院信憑會的第30次會議的會前會,\n\n13:23.680 --> 13:25.901\n我可不可以知道,院長,你怎麼處理這些事情?\n\n13:48.640 --> 14:10.961\n報告委員,我始終相信任何政策的討論都應該開放而且經過民主的程序,廣納不同的意見。我讓你看這張3月6號行政院性評會會選會的記錄,你可以看到黃淑英用一個臨時動議就試圖把代孕關在衛福部內,連法案送到性評會的機會都封殺掉。\n\n14:13.418 --> 14:42.131\n這個決議很離譜,他說作為未來的決策參考,信憑會是決策機關嗎?怎麼會需要按照信憑會的建議補充相關資料,再給信憑會做決議呢?決策呢?這根本是為反而反啊。用各種行政來杯葛這個封殺法案。我必須再次強調,信憑會不是決策機關,它只是個諮議會。它可以建議,但是它不能告訴行政院,你要怎麼做,你不可以怎麼做。\n\n14:44.025 --> 14:56.196\n院長你不認為這個會議紀錄非常離譜嗎?在會前會就把它封殺了。如果只是作為未來決策之參考,那我們會列為參考。封殺啦!他連會議agenda都不讓他上去啊。\n\n14:59.943 --> 15:25.649\n我幫部長來複習一下從衛生署時代到現在衛福部長期以來都是支持的代孕法制化1996年行政院有開放兩個版本加以兩版一版就是開放先天日子工發育不全當時被稱為就是成招之條款2004年9月陳建仁為了代孕舉行臺灣第一次的公民會議這公民是通過代孕的20年前\n\n15:26.810 --> 15:33.937\n2010年7月國建署舉行了兩天的國際研討會,邀請先行的國家,像英國、美國,他們的當事人跟專家來臺灣分享討論。\n\n15:37.298 --> 16:04.355\n2012年國建署邱署長為了待遇議題再度舉行了第二次的公民會議結論是要求盡快通過待遇而且政府需要積極介入這個運作好2010年、2013年、2015年國建署舉行了三次國家級的民調都是一面倒的支持大約八成然後前一次國建署是在2016年就是民進黨執政之前再度提出待遇法案\n\n16:05.595 --> 16:14.245\n而且從1996年開始,大概立法委員們舉行了將近20次的公聽會,這個公報可以查詢。以上佐證,院長我要告訴你,\n\n16:16.058 --> 16:22.059\n請問院長,有哪一個民生法案需要經過如此長久的折騰呢?20年前待運就通過了公民會議的支持,如今你還面臨少子化國安問題,你不是應該跟家屬成全這些願意生養孩子的家庭嗎?院長,實在咱們一樣,事變過程不夠嗎?\n\n16:46.127 --> 17:03.747\n所以我們經過那麼多年的努力,各方的意見即使現在還在整合,但是這個修法已經上路,它已經在程序當中了。我們是不是回到這個程序裡面,大家互相再來做更多溝通、說服以及互相諒解體認的工作呢?\n\n17:04.502 --> 17:30.716\n院長我剛剛一再的強調我們做了30年,你還要誰在諒解呢?那些人就是少數的一撮人啊!那我也感謝衛福部提出來嘛,你可以看到嘛,衛福部一直都是支持的嘛!但是為什麼你送進民會就否決呢?他是決策機關嗎?他只是治癒機構而已啊!我一生不想被多少政府機關聘為治癒委員會的委員啊!我們也是一個建議案啊!我想我們已經在\n\n17:32.964 --> 17:42.073\n我今天大概沒有空跟大家解釋什麼叫公民會議,但是我覺得身為政治人物也請兩位做一下功課,因為陳建仁首長非常熟悉,因為他幫我舉行了第一次公民會議。\n\n17:56.047 --> 18:15.942\n我簡單的說一次兩次公民會議的結論第一次公民會議是2004年9月陳建仁署長任令同意有條件開放待運當然有條件是沒有問題什麼事都要有條件的第二次公民會議是2012年的9月我唸一下簡單的結論不應委託者同時提供健康的精或軟質待運因\n\n18:33.240 --> 18:47.266\n公民會議,請兩位所長記得公民會議,這是一個審議式的民主,很多先進國家採用的一個方法,就是對於有爭議的政策去做討論,然後最後做出的結論。\n\n18:49.022 --> 19:15.563\n好部長院長這就是2010年13年15年國建署的民調你們可以大概簡單看這個資料都可以查六成的人民支持那麼久以前哦兩成的人不反對也就是有八成的臺灣人民在十幾年前就可以接受代孕法治化如今的社會只會更開放更多元啊難道民意會走回頭路嗎\n\n19:16.721 --> 19:17.961\n看他舉案的過程跟他怎麼樣詢問答案。\n\n19:45.554 --> 19:57.311\n議員長,國家的民調你不相信嗎?我說取樣的過程,民間的民調也要看他取樣的過程,跟我們政府所做的是不是一樣。那我可不可以請問你,至少國家的民調是可信啊?\n\n19:58.163 --> 20:26.700\n我們相信政府所作的民調。國家的民調欸!你國內不要聽那你...對啊,我們相信政府所作的民調。這個是國建署的民調。因為它是主責單位嘛。好,院長,來,如前面我所說的,我們來看看中央社報導說,主委院長您擔任這個首任閣僱啦,就是要執行總統的議制嘛,賴總統。那就人工生殖法的部分,我先來向您說明賴總統的議制是什麼。好,院長、部長,你們知道賴清德總統是大運法案的先行者嗎?\n\n20:28.220 --> 20:49.931\n二十二年前賴清德立委提出的大運法案,蕭美琴立委跟陳其美委都連署了,相當罕見的,總計提案人數,連署人數超過30位,這代表什麼?代理運募是人權問題,是民生問題,是無關政治意識形態的。二十二年前這份\n\n20:50.971 --> 21:05.639\n提案總說明書寫著,當時有她持空背景,一個人不管是先天或後天的原因缺乏了傳宗接代所必須的生殖要素,這是不可彌補的身體缺陷,應該被公平地視為生殖機能上的障礙者。\n\n21:06.920 --> 21:07.140\n好,我們繼續看。\n\n21:38.268 --> 21:54.668\n從這張圖左邊可以看到賴總統跟現任的范遜麗監委當時多麼的努力對人工生殖法草案做了功課他們調查了225位立委的看法當時國民黨民進黨新黨立委都認為國內對代理業務的需求是需要\n\n21:55.868 --> 22:21.310\n大於不需要其中民進黨立委認同度還最高呢56%好又圖是去年夏天來我辦公室採訪代孕議席兩位武林高中生他們今年要上大學了他們特地跑來告訴我在參加今年的成大經濟系跟台大法律系的徵試他們都徵試成功了面試老師竟然不約而同的選擇代孕作為徵試的主題\n\n22:23.392 --> 22:47.477\n台大法律系我尚可理解,法案嘛。陳大經濟系實在讓人驚豔。另外今年3月我也應邀麗山高中的邀請去演講待遇。教務務主任還特別跑來告訴我說,這可是學生自己安排自己邀約的。我認為這再再都顯示這個待遇已經受到國人,包括年輕學子的高度關注。\n\n22:48.519 --> 23:13.373\n好,30年來醫學快速進展,我們有新藥新科技,罹患這個癌症或者寒病不再是沒有生路,三天前我們也通過了再生醫療雙法,但人工生殖法跟醫療科技一直有一道人為的鴻溝跨不過去,讓子宮有病變的女性始終看不見曙光,我們的感受是子宮缺陷,\n\n23:14.807 --> 23:41.212\n不是沒救,是不肯救。不是沒救,是不肯救。臺灣第一個屍管嬰兒誕生於民國74年,1985年,到今天是39年了。而且臺灣的人工生殖技術是非常的進步成熟。科技的目的本來就是幫助人民追求幸福,達成心願。但性平衛反代孕的少數成員竟然夾持政府,要求病人接受命運。\n\n23:43.211 --> 24:08.445\n所以有資源就迴避命運,迴避他的禁令在國內私下進行代孕,是的沒錯,在國內私下進行,包括我自己。或一直哀求我或是拜託我幫他找代孕者,有財力的人就到國外去做代孕。反對者說代孕需求者是剝削社經地位的女性,請問不孕還有分富貴高低嗎?\n\n24:12.085 --> 24:39.820\n如果臺灣繼續禁止那才是真正剝削無權無勢的不運者因為很多人都沒有錢到國外做回到現在的人工生殖法院長部長你們知道有多落伍嗎只包含了捐金捐卵近20年竟然沒有實質的修法除了反對者的刻薄冷血行政的這個怠惰我實在沒有其他形容詞了我想請問捐金捐卵衍生的問題會少於待遇嗎\n\n24:41.226 --> 25:00.862\n院長你知道相對容易的捐金完全沒有追蹤報告這是後果不堪這個不堪設想嗎再來反對者事不甘己的要求不孕者去收養孩子請問臺灣收養的有追蹤分析跟評估報告嗎院長部長你知道臺灣收養終止率有多高嗎\n\n25:02.503 --> 25:22.362\n我告訴你,包括你的師父就是啊,臺灣中養這個,收養終止率有多高嗎?57%你可以去社家主查。多麼可怕,比離婚率還高欸。想收養就自己去收養嘛,不要一天到晚呼叫別人去收養小孩。收養跟不孕是兩碼事,好,不相關。\n\n25:24.602 --> 25:50.211\n我不服氣但願通過兩次嚴謹的公民會議但相關法案卻長期被擱置這是偏見也是歧視我今天再度代表那些只能默默哭泣的需求者在國會殿堂提出最嚴重的抗議沒有精子沒有卵子我們尚且伸出援手子宮有病變沒有功能不救嗎請問院長病人有分高低嗎\n\n25:52.366 --> 26:19.458\n委員,我很願意理解委員的狀況,而且很多相同國人或許也同樣的狀況。那我們願意進到法的這個程序裡面來,盡快把它做得更周延圓滿,成為一個進步的法律。委員長,我相信你。邱部長,你是身為很多人尊敬的醫師啦。我想請部長就常理回答。今天如果有一位罹患先進性子宮發育不全或是後天有病變,但是渴望生小孩的女性出現在你的門診,\n\n26:20.698 --> 26:37.398\n你會跟他說,你原本就要被社會淘汰啊,棄嬰很可憐啊,你又發揮大愛去收養棄嬰啊,你自己生不出來幹嘛寄予別人子宮啊,不孕不是病啊,你需要的是心理治療啊,人生不能什麼都想要啊,需求待遇哪不是人權是慾望,部長你會這樣回答他嗎?\n\n26:39.130 --> 26:42.752\n我已經被這些話,多數來自所謂活躍的女性主義者,霸凌了將近30年。\n\n27:03.578 --> 27:31.612\n要求大運的病人公開是很困難,這也為什麼這麼多年來只有我跟藝人小嫻公開自己的身體機密。院長部長,這些子宮有病病人他們躲在黑暗的角落裡哭泣啊,很難被聽到,就好像過去的同性伴侶一樣。兩位首長,他們的悲傷跟期待你們聽到了嗎?不要把他打入絕症,明明有救。院長,我們真的要逼我們人民到國外去求救嗎?\n\n27:36.698 --> 27:58.654\n請問部長,您知道上面的法條條文是哪個版本嗎?這21條規範當中哪些人可以委託代理母?第一,異性戀夫妻當中的妻子無子宮或子宮有病變或懷孕有危及生命時。第二,瘦素配偶雙方均為男性,也就是男男同志。第三,女女同志配偶雙方均無子宮或子宮有病變或懷孕有危及生命之餘。\n\n28:00.748 --> 28:03.009\n我其實感到這個版本的時候我非常的感動。\n\n28:20.441 --> 28:20.481\n﹚陳昭姿\n\n28:52.422 --> 28:52.622\n陳昭姿\n\n29:08.988 --> 29:09.048\n﹚陳昭姿﹚\n\n29:33.252 --> 29:58.366\n我來看這張好嗎?下一張這個圖。院長我再說一次。520南下的時候我和賴總統相談甚歡。我先恭喜總統然後問總統說你還繼續支持我的待遇嗎?他笑咪咪的回答我當然支持待遇。你不是一直也告訴別人我20幾年前就支持你的待遇嗎?當時有民進黨的立委許智傑還有我們三黨三位民進黨同行都可以作證。\n\n30:00.850 --> 30:29.760\n總統無細言軍無細言我當然不會錄音我的好朋友的音但是他確實這樣告訴我了那所以你們看到了賴立委跟賴總統他的意志就是支持代孕這個合法化兩位首長的態度是不是要貫徹賴總統的意志最後只有一句話將心比心成全別人追求幸福是人生的最高境界將心比心成全別人追求幸福是人生\n\n30:33.809 --> 30:34.773\n謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.359,"end":15.065,"text":"謝謝院長。 有請卓院長跟衛福部邱部長。再請卓院長備詢。 也請邱部長備詢。陳國元好。"},{"start":24.952,"end":46.769,"text":"院長部長好恭喜兩位上任新職也謝謝你們願意承擔重責大任最近臺灣刮起了一陣黃仁勳的旋風大家都知道他在世界AI的產業大放異彩把臺灣再次帶上全世界的舞臺他是臺灣之光院長部長你們認同嗎黃仁勳是臺灣之光你們認同嗎"},{"start":53.052,"end":81.365,"text":"我昨天有到Computex現場去雖然執行長不在但是很多我們的廠商跟國際的大廠都在那裡我有一個感覺如果我們的廠商這樣的合作放在整個臺灣社會大家都充分來合作那真的是臺灣的光榮我們一定要強到這個臺灣的光榮感是的他是臺灣之光那麼院長部長知道黃仁勳的輝達公司被評比為代孕福利最佳的企業嗎?"},{"start":83.22,"end":100.598,"text":"我覺得進步的思想跟潮流都應該值得鼓勵。她在官網上寫著,發展家庭的決定是一個重大的決定。在您生命中最重要的時刻之一,無論您走哪一條路,我們都會在這裡為您提供資源。資源可用於收養、生育。"},{"start":101.218,"end":107.162,"text":"在這裡讓兩位所長知道。好,回頭看我們的臺灣。待遇母法制化卻被一小撮人長期的醜化成物化、工具化、剝削女性。"},{"start":129.059,"end":147.27,"text":"那難道臺灣這幫黃仁勳先生也是幫兇嗎?我認為臺灣不能再被這一小撮人綁住所以我今天要跟院長部長深入的討論一下這個被黃仁勳先生用來造福員工的代孕制度"},{"start":149.588,"end":172.726,"text":"院長部長我是一位先天性子宮發育不全的病人那因為我跟我先生都有醫學背景所以我們毫無困難的去執行這個代孕但是為什麼做了一半之後又放棄了呢主動站出來挑戰政府因為當時的這個政府就是衛生署的時代他是違憲的他用行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人執行代孕"},{"start":174.029,"end":196.806,"text":"甚至威脅說要吊銷醫師執照。我們不忍心看到其他沒有資源的人躲在暗夜哭泣。我個人倡議代孕解禁將近30年的時間。20多年前我也正式收養了孩子。我們的一家三戶感情非常好。我進入國會主要的目標就是要推動代孕解禁。"},{"start":198.228,"end":209.762,"text":"希望能夠幫助先天性或後天性職工有病變或是因為某一些疾病他這個懷孕有風險甚至包括蔡政府時代允許的這個同婚家庭"},{"start":211.321,"end":229.207,"text":"院長您是民進黨內大家人稱的大師兄,大家都說院長您身段柔軟,善於調和、鼎爛。副總統也非常地稱讚您,說您善於溝通、協調,具有創新的思維來面對所有的問題。 院長您自認為是否合乎這樣的評價?"},{"start":230.307,"end":259.667,"text":"不敢當,我只是經常揣摩彼此共同的想法跟意見,那盡量把它拉到距離更接近,我只能做這樣的努力,不敢當。院長謙虛了,我是相信這些觀察都是事實了。那中央社的標題直指卓院長,您是因為擔任賴總統的首任的閣揆,那他負責執行賴總統的議制,那我稍後會用證據來說明賴總統對於代孕制度這件事的意志是什麼?"},{"start":263.188,"end":283.275,"text":"這張圖片是我在這個3月26號總質詢的時候陳建仁院長再度清楚的多次表達要支持代孕因為這個法案有關生養育權以及當時始料未及的這個少子化國安的這個問題"},{"start":285.015,"end":305.866,"text":"五月三時,您拜訪民眾黨黨團的時候,我也向您請教了,陳前院長任內所提出來的人工生殖法案的修法版本的態度,您的態度為何?院長,您當時有回覆我說,基本上政策應該要延續,除非有重大的一個理由。請問院長,您當天的承諾還在嗎?"},{"start":307.447,"end":328.159,"text":"當然一樣。謝謝院長。 政策是應該延續,何況是同一個政黨來執政。陳建元在2004年的時候,當時他是衛生署署長,他很成功辦了第一次的公民會議。公民會議的結論是允許代孕,代孕有條件通過。"},{"start":329.119,"end":352.434,"text":"那麼到今天,那是20年前的事,到今天已經落後的這個先進國家數十名的人工生殖法案,請院長務必要堅定立場,讓臺灣迎頭趕上。何況臺灣的人工生殖科技是非常的進步,加上從2016年民進黨執政以來,那個出生人口數從20萬每年向下1萬,到去年的13萬多。"},{"start":353.655,"end":353.775,"text":"是的。"},{"start":376.141,"end":402.468,"text":"但是院長我非常遺憾的發現在這個衛福部正式病人需求看到少子化的這個危機推出這個代孕法制化的修法草案的同時民進黨的性評部卻在5月16號召開了這左邊這張圖的討論會題目叫好像很好聽叫做代孕制度N種可能但事實上整個座談只有一種聲音就是反對代孕入法"},{"start":403.248,"end":424.541,"text":"根本沒有所謂的N種可能這就是民進黨婦女部數十年的態度有少數幾位如今已經是大佬級的女性主義者不斷的反對洗腦無血無淚無心肝完全無視於全世界文明的進步早就很多國家允許代孕我要講的是更離譜的"},{"start":426.785,"end":447.881,"text":"當時即將就任衛福部次長的林靜儀也出席了這個活動。他非但沒有為這個已經出爐的衛福部的主張做出積極的捍衛,而且還唱反調。這樣子他可以擔任政務官嗎?院長、部長可以嗎?他可以擔任政務官嗎?"},{"start":449.329,"end":473.685,"text":"你這對於這次缺藥的事情,林次長甚至他的發言非常的情緒,他對醫護人員的訴求,他竟然說站著講話的人不腰疼,類似這樣的說法。部長,我當時有要請你回去約束他,您做了嗎?一個次長講這個話,您做了嗎?缺藥,今天還在解決,還沒解決勒。你沒告訴他,對不對?"},{"start":476.584,"end":476.604,"text":"委員長"},{"start":506.773,"end":532.13,"text":"新的制度要讓它形成跟它落實我們必須考慮到很多像這件事情呢社會遇到跟以前不同的問題我們必須面對我會告訴你為什麼我們已經做了非常久的功夫邱部長三個月上任的時候您公開對外宣示開放代理母要拼年底這個送到立法院而且用最快的速度處理請問部長你還記得這件事嗎你還記得這件事嗎您記得吧"},{"start":537.52,"end":538.641,"text":"我完全非常了解"},{"start":559.763,"end":566.569,"text":"您還說在臺灣合乎這個倫理原則下,規劃完善的法規制度以及人文關懷,帶給國人新的生機,政府應該勇於面對謹慎研議國家的處理方向。 這個論點我百分之百的認同。"},{"start":586.187,"end":602.183,"text":"您就請你堅守在這個態度上。2017年的態度跟現在的態度應該是一樣的。好,謝謝部長,謝謝你。那下一張,衛福部近期公布的人工生殖法修正版。距離前一次是2016年,其實再度衛福部的版本一直都包括代孕。"},{"start":602.944,"end":603.684,"text":"委員每個人都有不同的價值"},{"start":628.12,"end":639.389,"text":"委員你身為委員所以我們在這裡對話,但是要形成一個制度,除了在國會聽取委員的意見,我也必須聽聽社會的意見。 不會那麼慢。數十年來這個院板都要經過性評會,這是我的重點。也數十次在那裡卡關,最近一次是2016年,當時政策親口告訴我說性評會少數人有意見。"},{"start":657.409,"end":680.401,"text":"小數集會東風苛舊充滿偏見充滿被害妄想症的女性主義者例如黃淑英長期以來主導了性平衛請問院長性平衛只是個資義小組欸性平衛有民意基礎嗎性平衛是太上皇機關嗎性平衛有權力可以無限上綱嗎為什麼代理法院需要經過性平衛的同意呢"},{"start":682.13,"end":703.405,"text":"委員你應該知道在5月14號這個修正草案已經公告在公告的期間當然會聽到更多社會的聲音但是它已經進入到整個法的程序裡面來這應該是大家共同努力的一個方向跟進度院長院長請記得喔是你在當家還是姓平會在當家請你要記得這件事情台灣是人民在當家"},{"start":703.985,"end":704.906,"text":"臺灣女人連線 臺灣女人連線 臺灣女人連線 臺灣女人連線 臺灣女人連線"},{"start":730.775,"end":756.033,"text":"這個臺灣女人連線這個團體竟然對外公開徵求美名為小編實為網軍要投書反代孕的文章如此思想偏激言行令人不齒的人竟然長期擔任行政院的性評委委員院長這太離譜了我再提醒院長院長你要當全民的院長不要讓黃淑英爬到你的頭上"},{"start":757.284,"end":762.273,"text":"不要讓她來一個人否決攸關人權跟國安的法案。"},{"start":763.598,"end":788.369,"text":"委員報告行政院整個體制是有規矩的,我們會照規矩,照法定的權限來進行所有相關的政策跟法案。為什麼我們會擔心法案除了行政院,除了黃淑英之外,報上這些團體,就是所謂的反代孕的這個婦權團體,其實都被黃淑英去影響了。他們都有成員代表,在行政院信憑會,我先跟你報告,在謝長廷立黨時代,我也是那個婦權會的代表。"},{"start":789.489,"end":800.418,"text":"過去就是因為少數信憑委員堅持反對,綁架整個信憑會,讓法案永遠出不了行政院。例如今年3月6日,行政院信憑會的第30次會議的會前會,"},{"start":803.68,"end":805.901,"text":"我可不可以知道,院長,你怎麼處理這些事情?"},{"start":828.64,"end":850.961,"text":"報告委員,我始終相信任何政策的討論都應該開放而且經過民主的程序,廣納不同的意見。我讓你看這張3月6號行政院性評會會選會的記錄,你可以看到黃淑英用一個臨時動議就試圖把代孕關在衛福部內,連法案送到性評會的機會都封殺掉。"},{"start":853.418,"end":882.131,"text":"這個決議很離譜,他說作為未來的決策參考,信憑會是決策機關嗎?怎麼會需要按照信憑會的建議補充相關資料,再給信憑會做決議呢?決策呢?這根本是為反而反啊。用各種行政來杯葛這個封殺法案。我必須再次強調,信憑會不是決策機關,它只是個諮議會。它可以建議,但是它不能告訴行政院,你要怎麼做,你不可以怎麼做。"},{"start":884.025,"end":896.196,"text":"院長你不認為這個會議紀錄非常離譜嗎?在會前會就把它封殺了。 如果只是作為未來決策之參考,那我們會列為參考。 封殺啦!他連會議 agenda 都不讓他上去啊。"},{"start":899.943,"end":925.649,"text":"我幫部長來複習一下從衛生署時代到現在衛福部長期以來都是支持的代孕法制化1996年行政院有開放兩個版本加以兩版一版就是開放先天日子工發育不全當時被稱為就是成招之條款2004年9月陳建仁為了代孕舉行臺灣第一次的公民會議這公民是通過代孕的20年前"},{"start":926.81,"end":933.937,"text":"2010年7月國建署舉行了兩天的國際研討會,邀請先行的國家,像英國、美國,他們的當事人跟專家來臺灣分享討論。"},{"start":937.298,"end":964.355,"text":"2012年國建署邱署長為了待遇議題再度舉行了第二次的公民會議結論是要求盡快通過待遇而且政府需要積極介入這個運作好2010年、2013年、2015年國建署舉行了三次國家級的民調都是一面倒的支持大約八成然後前一次國建署是在2016年就是民進黨執政之前再度提出待遇法案"},{"start":965.595,"end":974.245,"text":"而且從1996年開始,大概立法委員們舉行了將近20次的公聽會,這個公報可以查詢。以上佐證,院長我要告訴你,"},{"start":976.058,"end":982.059,"text":"請問院長,有哪一個民生法案需要經過如此長久的折騰呢?20年前待運就通過了公民會議的支持,如今你還面臨少子化國安問題,你不是應該跟家屬成全這些願意生養孩子的家庭嗎?院長,實在咱們一樣,事變過程不夠嗎?"},{"start":1006.127,"end":1023.747,"text":"所以我們經過那麼多年的努力,各方的意見即使現在還在整合,但是這個修法已經上路,它已經在程序當中了。我們是不是回到這個程序裡面,大家互相再來做更多溝通、說服以及互相諒解體認的工作呢?"},{"start":1024.502,"end":1050.716,"text":"院長我剛剛一再的強調我們做了30年,你還要誰在諒解呢?那些人就是少數的一撮人啊!那我也感謝衛福部提出來嘛,你可以看到嘛,衛福部一直都是支持的嘛!但是為什麼你送進民會就否決呢?他是決策機關嗎?他只是治癒機構而已啊!我一生不想被多少政府機關聘為治癒委員會的委員啊!我們也是一個建議案啊!我想我們已經在"},{"start":1052.964,"end":1062.073,"text":"我今天大概沒有空跟大家解釋什麼叫公民會議,但是我覺得身為政治人物也請兩位做一下功課,因為陳建仁首長非常熟悉,因為他幫我舉行了第一次公民會議。"},{"start":1076.047,"end":1095.942,"text":"我簡單的說一次兩次公民會議的結論第一次公民會議是2004年9月陳建仁署長任令同意有條件開放待運當然有條件是沒有問題什麼事都要有條件的第二次公民會議是2012年的9月我唸一下簡單的結論不應委託者同時提供健康的精或軟質待運因"},{"start":1097.483,"end":1112.739,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1113.24,"end":1127.266,"text":"公民會議,請兩位所長記得公民會議,這是一個審議式的民主,很多先進國家採用的一個方法,就是對於有爭議的政策去做討論,然後最後做出的結論。"},{"start":1129.022,"end":1155.563,"text":"好部長院長這就是2010年13年15年國建署的民調你們可以大概簡單看這個資料都可以查六成的人民支持那麼久以前哦兩成的人不反對也就是有八成的臺灣人民在十幾年前就可以接受代孕法治化如今的社會只會更開放更多元啊難道民意會走回頭路嗎"},{"start":1156.721,"end":1157.961,"text":"看他舉案的過程跟他怎麼樣詢問答案。"},{"start":1185.554,"end":1197.311,"text":"議員長,國家的民調你不相信嗎?我說取樣的過程,民間的民調也要看他取樣的過程,跟我們政府所做的是不是一樣。那我可不可以請問你,至少國家的民調是可信啊?"},{"start":1198.163,"end":1226.7,"text":"我們相信政府所作的民調。國家的民調欸!你國內不要聽那你...對啊,我們相信政府所作的民調。這個是國建署的民調。因為它是主責單位嘛。好,院長,來,如前面我所說的,我們來看看中央社報導說,主委院長您擔任這個首任閣僱啦,就是要執行總統的議制嘛,賴總統。那就人工生殖法的部分,我先來向您說明賴總統的議制是什麼。好,院長、部長,你們知道賴清德總統是大運法案的先行者嗎?"},{"start":1228.22,"end":1249.931,"text":"二十二年前賴清德立委提出的大運法案,蕭美琴立委跟陳其美委都連署了,相當罕見的,總計提案人數,連署人數超過30位,這代表什麼?代理運募是人權問題,是民生問題,是無關政治意識形態的。二十二年前這份"},{"start":1250.971,"end":1265.639,"text":"提案總說明書寫著,當時有她持空背景,一個人不管是先天或後天的原因缺乏了傳宗接代所必須的生殖要素,這是不可彌補的身體缺陷,應該被公平地視為生殖機能上的障礙者。"},{"start":1266.92,"end":1267.14,"text":"好,我們繼續看。"},{"start":1298.268,"end":1314.668,"text":"從這張圖左邊可以看到賴總統跟現任的范遜麗監委當時多麼的努力對人工生殖法草案做了功課他們調查了225位立委的看法當時國民黨民進黨新黨立委都認為國內對代理業務的需求是需要"},{"start":1315.868,"end":1341.31,"text":"大於不需要其中民進黨立委認同度還最高呢56%好 又圖是去年夏天來我辦公室採訪代孕議席兩位武林高中生他們今年要上大學了他們特地跑來告訴我在參加今年的成大經濟系跟台大法律系的徵試他們都徵試成功了面試老師竟然不約而同的選擇代孕作為徵試的主題"},{"start":1343.392,"end":1367.477,"text":"台大法律系我尚可理解,法案嘛。陳大經濟系實在讓人驚豔。另外今年3月我也應邀麗山高中的邀請去演講待遇。教務務主任還特別跑來告訴我說,這可是學生自己安排自己邀約的。我認為這再再都顯示這個待遇已經受到國人,包括年輕學子的高度關注。"},{"start":1368.519,"end":1393.373,"text":"好,30年來醫學快速進展,我們有新藥新科技,罹患這個癌症或者寒病不再是沒有生路,三天前我們也通過了再生醫療雙法,但人工生殖法跟醫療科技一直有一道人為的鴻溝跨不過去,讓子宮有病變的女性始終看不見曙光,我們的感受是子宮缺陷,"},{"start":1394.807,"end":1421.212,"text":"不是沒救,是不肯救。不是沒救,是不肯救。臺灣第一個屍管嬰兒誕生於民國74年,1985年,到今天是39年了。而且臺灣的人工生殖技術是非常的進步成熟。科技的目的本來就是幫助人民追求幸福,達成心願。但性平衛反代孕的少數成員竟然夾持政府,要求病人接受命運。"},{"start":1423.211,"end":1448.445,"text":"所以有資源就迴避命運,迴避他的禁令在國內私下進行代孕,是的沒錯,在國內私下進行,包括我自己。或一直哀求我或是拜託我幫他找代孕者,有財力的人就到國外去做代孕。反對者說代孕需求者是剝削社經地位的女性,請問不孕還有分富貴高低嗎?"},{"start":1452.085,"end":1479.82,"text":"如果臺灣繼續禁止那才是真正剝削無權無勢的不運者因為很多人都沒有錢到國外做回到現在的人工生殖法院長部長你們知道有多落伍嗎只包含了捐金捐卵近20年竟然沒有實質的修法除了反對者的刻薄冷血行政的這個怠惰我實在沒有其他形容詞了我想請問捐金捐卵衍生的問題會少於待遇嗎"},{"start":1481.226,"end":1500.862,"text":"院長你知道相對容易的捐金完全沒有追蹤報告這是後果不堪這個不堪設想嗎再來反對者事不甘己的要求不孕者去收養孩子請問臺灣收養的有追蹤分析跟評估報告嗎院長部長你知道臺灣收養終止率有多高嗎"},{"start":1502.503,"end":1522.362,"text":"我告訴你,包括你的師父就是啊,臺灣中養這個,收養終止率有多高嗎?57%你可以去社家主查。多麼可怕,比離婚率還高欸。想收養就自己去收養嘛,不要一天到晚呼叫別人去收養小孩。收養跟不孕是兩碼事,好,不相關。"},{"start":1524.602,"end":1550.211,"text":"我不服氣但願通過兩次嚴謹的公民會議但相關法案卻長期被擱置這是偏見也是歧視我今天再度代表那些只能默默哭泣的需求者在國會殿堂提出最嚴重的抗議沒有精子沒有卵子我們尚且伸出援手子宮有病變沒有功能不救嗎請問院長病人有分高低嗎"},{"start":1552.366,"end":1579.458,"text":"委員,我很願意理解委員的狀況,而且很多相同國人或許也同樣的狀況。那我們願意進到法的這個程序裡面來,盡快把它做得更周延圓滿,成為一個進步的法律。委員長,我相信你。邱部長,你是身為很多人尊敬的醫師啦。我想請部長就常理回答。今天如果有一位罹患先進性子宮發育不全或是後天有病變,但是渴望生小孩的女性出現在你的門診,"},{"start":1580.698,"end":1597.398,"text":"你會跟他說,你原本就要被社會淘汰啊,棄嬰很可憐啊,你又發揮大愛去收養棄嬰啊,你自己生不出來幹嘛寄予別人子宮啊,不孕不是病啊,你需要的是心理治療啊,人生不能什麼都想要啊,需求待遇哪不是人權是慾望,部長你會這樣回答他嗎?"},{"start":1599.13,"end":1602.752,"text":"我已經被這些話,多數來自所謂活躍的女性主義者,霸凌了將近30年。"},{"start":1623.578,"end":1651.612,"text":"要求大運的病人公開是很困難,這也為什麼這麼多年來只有我跟藝人小嫻公開自己的身體機密。院長部長,這些子宮有病病人他們躲在黑暗的角落裡哭泣啊,很難被聽到,就好像過去的同性伴侶一樣。兩位首長,他們的悲傷跟期待你們聽到了嗎?不要把他打入絕症,明明有救。院長,我們真的要逼我們人民到國外去求救嗎?"},{"start":1656.698,"end":1678.654,"text":"請問部長,您知道上面的法條條文是哪個版本嗎?這21條規範當中哪些人可以委託代理母?第一,異性戀夫妻當中的妻子無子宮或子宮有病變或懷孕有危及生命時。第二,瘦素配偶雙方均為男性,也就是男男同志。第三,女女同志配偶雙方均無子宮或子宮有病變或懷孕有危及生命之餘。"},{"start":1680.748,"end":1683.009,"text":"我其實感到這個版本的時候我非常的感動。"},{"start":1700.441,"end":1700.481,"text":"﹚陳昭姿"},{"start":1732.422,"end":1732.622,"text":"陳昭姿"},{"start":1748.988,"end":1749.048,"text":"﹚陳昭姿﹚"},{"start":1773.252,"end":1798.366,"text":"我來看這張好嗎?下一張這個圖。 院長我再說一次。520南下的時候我和賴總統相談甚歡。我先恭喜總統然後問總統說你還繼續支持我的待遇嗎?他笑咪咪的回答我當然支持待遇。你不是一直也告訴別人我20幾年前就支持你的待遇嗎?當時有民進黨的立委許智傑還有我們三黨三位民進黨同行都可以作證。"},{"start":1800.85,"end":1829.76,"text":"總統無細言軍無細言我當然不會錄音我的好朋友的音但是他確實這樣告訴我了那所以你們看到了賴立委跟賴總統他的意志就是支持代孕這個合法化兩位首長的態度是不是要貫徹賴總統的意志最後只有一句話將心比心成全別人追求幸福是人生的最高境界將心比心成全別人追求幸福是人生"},{"start":1833.809,"end":1834.773,"text":"謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。"}]}}}}