{"id":153786,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153786","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/065bcaf30f002e2b6d27ee3a7bd2a77deab218bf194c20650eedd53545fcbf4ddcf26fffb41f74a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"11:18:09 - 11:33:52","影片長度":"00:15:43","會議時間":"2024-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第17次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。 \n二、6月7日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月11日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-11","start_time":"2024-06-11T11:18:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-11T11:33:52+08:00","duration":943,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第17次會議","id":"院會-11-1-17","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":521,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時18分）謝謝主席，有請院長，謝謝。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：院長好。我今天最主要都是問一些跟跨部會有關的議題，最主要除了花蓮震災的情形之外，還有包含全民防衛，然後還有戰略協調的機制，不過在一開始，我還是想先針對最近媒體不斷對我造謠的一件事情來做一個說明。第一個，因為媒體剛好又問到第五縱隊，這邊可能也有請法務部長來幫忙做一個說明，就是說有官員指出，臺灣最近有很多的第五縱隊，或是說該怎麼辦，那我一直都認為第五縱隊是一個假議題，為什麼我會這樣講？其實理由非常的簡單。第五縱隊最主要是指在戰爭的時候，跟敵人裡應外合，在臺灣搞顛覆等等之類的，但這些人重點是他要怎麼做得到這件事情？他可能要有一些名單什麼等等之類的，所以目前我一直都認為與其用「第五縱隊」這個名詞，不如去討論到底在臺灣有哪些人風險高，哪些人風險低。風險高的意思就是他可能時常跟中國的黨政軍有接觸，這可能是風險比較高的人；風險低的人，他可能就是單純去到中國，然後去到中國甚至沒有見到這些所謂的黨政軍，那說真的，他根本就不應該在我們的規範之內。","那我最早為了去把這個風險高低盤點出來，我認為立法委員的風險是非常高的，他去中國能夠見到的人官階也高，他能夠接觸到臺灣的國家機密也多，所以我提出相關的立法委員赴中需要報准，這也是剛剛柯委員問到的一個問題，我認為這是一個非常合理的規範，目前以我們聯審會來講，大概兩個禮拜審一審都還是會過去。那剛剛柯委員有問到這會不會可能造成所謂的自由被妨害，其實很重要的事情是這一個聯審會審查是為了透明化，我們要知道這些委員見了什麼人、他人在哪裡，不然如果他被抓走的話，我們要怎麼辦？所以他的行程都是應該要上網的，跟現在縣市首長去一樣。","我在這邊想問法務部長另外一件事情，剛好在前陣子有一個新聞，有一個扯鈴教練，他不是立法委員，他是一個扯鈴教練而已，這個扯鈴教練去到中國之後被中國接觸，回來之後洩漏蔡總統當時的一些行程，然後也洩漏了一些當時在飛機上面的貴賓名單，現在可能檢察官已經在偵辦當中了。所以雖然他不是一個公務員，但是他的確可以造成傷害，因為他的那個名單對第五縱隊來講以後的確會造成危險。那我在這邊想要問另外一個問題，就是我現在放在PowerPoint上面的，如果是臺灣的大學教授去中國，結果見到中國統戰部的人員，在回來之後在課堂上面看到哪一些同學在討論維吾爾議題、在討論香港議題，甚至認為在討論臺獨問題，就做成一個名單，然後就把這個名單交給中國。請問在這樣的狀況之下，這跟剛剛講的扯鈴教練不一樣，他不是直接洩漏國防機密或國防以外的機密，他只是單純做名單而已，那這個名單對第五縱隊會很重要，請問我們現在對這個的規範會是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，目前是沒有直接對這一種行為做一個規範。"],["沈委員伯洋：沒有規範嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：那可以研究看看有沒有觸犯個資法第四十一條這一個法條。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。這就是很重要的，這其實就是我一直不斷在提的，因為有很多灰色地帶的事情，他可能沒有直接違法，或者他只能用跟國安無關的法律，我們可能做一些措施，那這件事情其實是正常的，因為我們是民主國家，我們不能夠直接對人民來做監控，但是我們臺灣所面對中國的威脅是實實在在存在的，所以對於這種事情我們要怎麼揭露來讓一般人知道，這的確是重要的，所以往後針對這個議題，我可能還是會一樣，不管在司法及法制委員會或在內政委員會的時候，都會針對這個議題再做後續的討論，所以前面我先來把這件事情釐清一下。","那接下來我就是要討論跨部會的事情，我一開始想要講，我們從4月3號發生地震一直5月2號，在4月3號賴總統當時在第一時間就去了，那我記得在5月22號卓院長也是一上任就馬上下去了，所以這個真的對當地是一個非常大的鼓舞。我在這邊想要提的有兩點，第一點，從4月3號到5月2號畢竟還是一個月，在過了這一個月之後，那時候才把這個經費拍板，其實對當地的人民來講是有點慢，那慢其實也沒什麼關係，因為就表示有充分的討論，但是當時有一個最大的問題，因為我們的部會太多了，會負責的事項有房屋、醫療、賑災、死亡，這些都太多了，所以在當時有一個狀況，譬如說他可能打電話問賑災基金會，那賑災基金會可能就只是負責收款，在收款之後，在裡面有一些要點，可是要點的規定也沒有那麼的清楚，譬如說我是一個房客，然後我打電話去問的時候，他就說房客有補助，但是問題是他住處那些損壞的傢俱是房東的，那房東去問的時候，他就說很抱歉，我們這個要點可能沒有規定，因為沒有規定，所以後續該怎麼處理就不是很知道。所以像這種橫向聯繫的這件事情還有窗口的問題其實在賑災的時候特別重要，那臺灣又是容易發生災難的地方，所以是不是可以請院長講一下，就是從你上任以後，因為你在5月22日也有下去，在那個時候針對各部會的協調機制這件事情，還有對外的窗口能不能一致並且回答問題這件事情，不知道現在有什麼進展？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員的提醒，我想我們在第一時間，包括總統，我們到現場去不僅是要鼓舞大家而已，我們希望能夠達到實際。所以我們那天在回來之後，我就趁著我們工程會陳主委再要過去的時候，我特別請他去看看重建辦公室到底有沒有發揮功能，據他回報，是有固定的人在那裡，那我希望他們的功能能夠更具體。我也特別要求我們所有的計畫要加速核定，所有的補助都要如實到位、步步到位，都一定要確實到位，這個是我們特別的要求。現在我們除了對於一般住戶，對於學校，因為學校的損毀牽涉到學生的上課跟安全，我們也希望它在原編的預算裡面能夠處理，把學校的整修工程能夠進行下去。","另外，我們那天也到了很多，包括現場有民眾在陳情，這些事情我回來之後一一再處理。總之，我希望0403的花蓮震災，當作我們延續過去政府執政的延續，一定要給人民感覺到安心，他才能夠覺得再投票給執政黨是正確的，這個是我要負起的責任。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝院長。因為尤其是辦公室，現在窗口已經有了，制度也有了，要點可能要修得再更細一點，這是一定要做的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：重點就是在回答問題的時候，譬如說有時候他在回答的時候，他可能會說這可能是某一個部會的事，那他變成又要再去另外一個部會問，有時候很容易造成一些踢皮球的狀況，我覺得一直以來在官僚體制之下，本來就會有這些情形，但希望以後在震災的過程當中，這個情形能夠慢慢地減少。","接下來我想要問的是跟全民防衛有關，又回到跟戰爭或者災害有關的議題。關於全民防衛，我們辦公室做了一個圖，這個圖是針對全動署所提出來的要點跟計畫，這是我們自己畫出來的，可以看到我們有一個動員準備綱領，等於是最高指導原則，接下來在比較深綠色的部分包含各式各樣不同的準備方案，然後每一個準備方案裡面又有很多子計畫，為什麼我要把這個全圖畫出來？很大一個原因就是因為接下來也是要進入到預算會期，如果我們認為動員準備綱領這件事情、全民防衛這件事情是重要的，那接下來我們就是要看，在每一個子計畫裡面，它所稱要做的事情到底有沒有做到、預算有沒有編列，因為這樣才是人員有沒有到位，如果沒有的話就表示這整個全民防衛沒有辦法達到功能嘛！","我今天只挑幾個比較小的地方來問，第一個我想要問的是內政部，剛好部長上來了，我想問內政部，就是在右邊第二個，人力動員準備方案，這裡面的民防人力跟消防人力顯然跟內政部是最有關的。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["沈委員伯洋：這邊我有盤點，這邊就放大，就是內政部要做的包括落實民防人力的整備作業，我知道從去年開始就有在做整備作業，但是後續這個部分到底有沒有在進行呢？接下來我想知道的事情是，因為在上一任院長的施政報告有特別提到兩點，一個就是進階防災室，另外一個是所謂的自主緊急應變隊，這兩個我認為都很重要，是因為一個是屬於個人能力，一個是屬於橫向聯繫，我們的義警、義消，每一個人彼此之間要怎麼合作，他有提到預計成立320隊、8,000人。因為在這一次施政報告並沒有特別提這件事情，所以想問內政部，這件事情目前的規劃大概到什麼樣的方向？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，不只前任的院長，現在的卓院長也非常關心，所以我們到目前為止，所謂的8,000人是按照計畫來進行，譬如說今年我們希望有2,000人，也就是每一隊25人，然後能夠用災救的方式，不管是救人、救護或是救援的方式，都是在進行當中，而且到目前為止，我們已經有培訓種子教官大概780人左右。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝部長，顯然有在進行的方向。接下來往後的一些規劃，譬如說他的課程進行等等之類的，這個我可能就等到內政委員會的時候再來多做請教。"],["劉部長世芳：我可以再補充一下，就是防災室的部分，在上一次我們的報告是2萬5,000人，但是我認為尤其是0403花蓮大地震之後，對於大規模的災救部分，我們依照防災法，我們希望防災室可以變成……大約總共可以訓練5萬人左右，現在內政部正在規劃當中。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，這就是跟剛剛講的進階防災室有更大的關聯，因為早期的防災室的訓練更像是幫助自己比較多，幫助別人稍微少一點。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：在進階的時候，它的橫向聯繫變多的時候，就可以做更多了。"],["劉部長世芳：互助跟互救。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來我本來是想再問國防部關於相關的資訊、相關的規劃，但因為時間的因素，我可能這邊必須先稍微跳過一下。好，這個是國防部的部分，我就只好等到外交及國防委員會，反正我在外交及國防委員會，所以這個部分我可以晚一點再問。","接下來我想要給院長看一個影片，這邊可能要請勞動部。","（播放影片）"],["沈委員伯洋：這個影片非常重要的一點，在看的過程中，這是之前一個印度移工的議題，是滿久以前的議題，其實它到底是真是假，我覺得那是另外一件事情，我們最主要不是在關切這一個，而是從這個影片裡面大概就可以看到它的腳本是一模一樣的，它的拍攝手法是一模一樣的，它什麼時候插入圖片也是一模一樣的！而這樣的影片是數以千計，當時大量的在網路上被散布。除了這一個與移工相關的事情以外，等一下後面還有一個中選會的，但是我就以這個作為例子。簡單來講，這是一個龐大的網路社群操作，至於它跟中國有沒有關，那是另外一件事情喔！但總之它是一個操作。我想第一個問，如果說從認知作戰這個角度來講，如果今天這是一個國外的進攻，然後要把這個大量散播，請問勞動部，現在如果要偵測這件事情，你們會有這個能力跟機制嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，我們可以儘速的澄清，可是如果就確認是否是認知作戰，這確實不是勞動部有能力做的，這可能要尋求跨部會的協助。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長這個回答其實非常的真實。第一個，我們對真實與否，政府永遠都是第一時間可以馬上澄清，到底有沒有10萬啊、到底這個MOU是簽了沒有啊等等之類的，但是對於大規模的操作，這完全不是勞動部的職責嘛！假設這個背後是解放軍在做，我相信勞動部裡面應該沒有人在做解放軍研究啦！但是這就是認知作戰第二個重要的部分，除了內容真實與否之外，重點是它的行為模式，它的腳本我們要怎麼去比對，然後內容要怎麼去做比對，然後它的手法是不是一致，這是很困難認定的事情。但現在我們的部會能夠做到這件事情的會有誰？可能法務部有一個認知作戰中心，國防部裡面有心戰，又或者數發部其實更有能力做，因為這是跟影片、跟資訊有關的一個比對。所以回到這邊想要問院長，如果今天我們認為這件事情是我們應該要應對的，但是可以做這件分析的事情有點四散，那他們在什麼樣的狀況之下，那個機制是今天發生這件事情了，除了通知勞動部針對事實與否要做澄清之外，其他他們的連結機制要怎麼做起來？這邊可能必須要就教於院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，誠如剛剛委員所提到的那幾個部會，它都有身負它的重大責任，因為現在這種認知作戰的攻擊層出不窮，而且數量非常的龐大，我們知道委員在防衛韌性跟認知作戰上面是非常有專業的研究，將來我們在跨部會的過程當中也有政委可以協助跨部會，同時對這種不法的行為做一個比較完整的防衛作用，當然各部會的努力還是要努力，發現不法馬上澄清，讓人民得到真實的狀況，這是第一線，前端的防衛系統，我們還是要建立起來。"],["沈委員伯洋：希望之後可以去責成特定的，譬如說政委，他去針對這件事情做跨部會的協調，不然能夠做這件分析的人不是沒有，但太散了，而且他們對於中國的認識不一定足夠，那他怎麼去協助農業部、協助勞動部？因為他們反而常常是假消息攻擊的對象，那我覺得這件事情是非常的重要。","最後我可能只有一點點時間，我來提一下國民黨提出的國家安全戰略法，這一個戰略法本身立意非常的良善，它是跟行政機關的戰略提出有關，但因為我們總統也有國家安全相關的要務，所以這件事情我比較擔心，也請行政院回去研議，就是之後當我們要把這些戰略溝通相關事項放在行政院體系之下，變成質詢的對象，這到底是妥適還是不妥適？我認為這個值得討論，但這個部分因為時間因素，我就不繼續往下問，之後可能會在外交及國防委員會針對這個議題再做更深入的討論。謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請萬委員美玲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":173,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-17","speakers":["江啟臣","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","黃建賓","劉建國","柯志恩","沈伯洋","萬美玲","吳沛憶","王鴻薇","范雲","王育敏","李坤城","林憶君","王美惠","邱志偉"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00003","1135401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第17次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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\"現在檢察官可能已經在偵辦當中了所以他不是一個公務員那他的確可以造成傷害因為他的那一個名單對第五縱隊以後來講的確會造成危險那我這邊想要問另外一個問題就是我現在放在PowerPoint上面的如果是台灣的大學教授去中國\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 188.039, \"end\": 189.101, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 189.101, \"end\": 189.281, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 189.281, \"end\": 189.301, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 189.301, \"end\": 189.361, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 189.361, \"end\": 189.401, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 189.401, \"end\": 189.541, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 189.541, \"end\": 190.262, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"偵\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 190.262, \"end\": 190.483, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 190.483, \"end\": 190.883, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 190.883, \"end\": 190.943, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": 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\"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 196.911, \"end\": 197.272, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 197.272, \"end\": 197.412, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 197.412, \"end\": 197.612, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"危\", \"start\": 197.612, \"end\": 198.553, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 198.553, \"end\": 198.653, \"score\": 0.636}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 198.653, \"end\": 198.954, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 198.954, \"end\": 199.234, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 199.234, \"end\": 199.474, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 199.474, \"end\": 199.615, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 199.615, \"end\": 199.755, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 199.755, \"end\": 200.235, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 200.235, \"end\": 200.336, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 200.336, \"end\": 200.436, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 200.436, \"end\": 200.596, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 200.596, \"end\": 200.776, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 200.776, \"end\": 200.896, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 200.896, \"end\": 201.037, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 201.037, \"end\": 201.157, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"o\", \"start\": 201.157, \"end\": 201.177, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"w\", \"start\": 201.177, \"end\": 201.197, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"e\", \"start\": 201.197, \"end\": 201.217, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"r\", \"start\": 201.217, \"end\": 201.237, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 201.237, \"end\": 201.277, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"o\", \"start\": 201.277, \"end\": 201.357, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"i\", \"start\": 201.357, \"end\": 201.377, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"n\", \"start\": 201.377, \"end\": 201.437, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"t\", \"start\": 201.437, \"end\": 201.477, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 201.477, \"end\": 201.657, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 201.657, \"end\": 201.858, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 201.858, \"end\": 202.378, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 202.378, \"end\": 202.539, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 202.539, \"end\": 202.659, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 202.659, \"end\": 202.839, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 202.839, \"end\": 203.119, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 203.119, \"end\": 203.239, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 203.239, \"end\": 203.42, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 203.42, \"end\": 203.62, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 203.62, \"end\": 203.82, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"授\", \"start\": 203.82, \"end\": 204.281, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 204.281, \"end\": 204.401, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 204.401, \"end\": 204.421, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"國\"}]}, {\"start\": 205.382, \"end\": 231.838, \"text\": \"結果見到中國統戰部的人員回來之後呢在課堂上面有沒有看到哪一些同學在討論維吾爾議題在討論香港議題甚至認為在討論台獨問題就把它做成一個名單然後就把這個名單交給中國那請問在這樣的一個狀況之下他跟剛剛扯鈴教練不一樣他不是把一個直接國防機密或國防以外機密做洩漏他只是單純做名單而已但這個名單對第五中隊會很重要那請問我們現在對這個的規範會是什麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 205.382, \"end\": 205.722, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 205.722, \"end\": 205.922, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 205.922, \"end\": 206.743, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 206.743, \"end\": 206.863, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 206.863, \"end\": 207.003, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 207.003, \"end\": 207.744, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 207.744, \"end\": 208.104, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 208.104, \"end\": 208.244, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 208.244, \"end\": 208.404, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 208.404, \"end\": 208.544, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 208.544, \"end\": 208.884, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"課\"}, {\"word\": \"堂\", \"start\": 208.884, \"end\": 209.064, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 209.064, \"end\": 209.225, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 209.225, \"end\": 209.385, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 209.385, \"end\": 209.485, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 209.485, \"end\": 209.585, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 209.585, \"end\": 209.905, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"看\", 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{\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 214.668, \"end\": 214.828, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 214.828, \"end\": 215.268, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 215.268, \"end\": 215.729, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 215.729, \"end\": 216.809, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"獨\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 216.809, \"end\": 216.929, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 216.929, \"end\": 217.029, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 217.029, \"end\": 217.149, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 217.149, \"end\": 217.35, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 217.35, \"end\": 217.49, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 217.49, \"end\": 217.69, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 217.69, \"end\": 217.91, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"漏\", \"start\": 227.055, \"end\": 227.416, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 227.416, \"end\": 227.536, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 227.536, \"end\": 227.636, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 227.636, \"end\": 228.036, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"純\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 228.036, \"end\": 228.196, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 228.196, \"end\": 228.556, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 228.556, \"end\": 228.697, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 228.697, \"end\": 229.097, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 229.097, \"end\": 229.437, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 229.437, \"end\": 229.917, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 229.917, \"end\": 230.037, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 230.037, \"end\": 230.177, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 230.177, \"end\": 230.618, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"隊\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 230.618, \"end\": 230.798, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 230.798, \"end\": 231.078, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 231.078, \"end\": 231.578, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 231.578, \"end\": 231.618, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 231.618, \"end\": 231.638, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 231.638, \"end\": 231.658, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 231.658, \"end\": 231.738, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 231.738, \"end\": 231.818, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 231.818, \"end\": 231.838, \"score\": 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443.098, \"end\": 443.118, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 458.388, \"end\": 483.913, \"text\": \"重點就是在回答問題的時候比如說有時候他在回答的時候他可能講說這可能是某一個部會的事那他變成又要再去另外一個部會問有時候很容易造成一些踢皮球的狀況那我覺得這個一直以來本來在官僚體制之下本來就會有這些情形但希望以後在震災的過程當中這個情形能夠慢慢的減少那接下來我想要問的往下是跟全民防衛有關又回到這個跟這個戰爭或者災害有關的議題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 458.388, \"end\": 458.728, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 458.728, \"end\": 458.848, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 458.848, \"end\": 458.948, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 458.948, \"end\": 459.088, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 459.088, \"end\": 459.248, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 459.248, \"end\": 459.748, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 459.748, \"end\": 460.048, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 460.048, \"end\": 460.408, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 483.252, \"end\": 483.332, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 483.332, \"end\": 483.492, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 483.492, \"end\": 483.592, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 483.592, \"end\": 483.853, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 483.853, \"end\": 483.893, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 483.893, \"end\": 483.913, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}]}, {\"start\": 486.833, \"end\": 512.756, \"text\": \"全民防衛這邊我們辦公室做了一個圖,這個圖是針對捲動署所提出來的要點跟計畫,這是我們自己畫出來的。可以看到我們有一個動員準備綱領,這個最高指導原則。接下來在這個比較深綠色的部分包含各式各樣不同的準備方案,然後每一個準備方案裡面又有很多子計畫。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 486.833, \"end\": 486.953, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 486.953, \"end\": 487.174, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 487.174, 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如果我們認為動員、準備綱領這件事情、全民防衛這件事情是重要的。 那接下來我們就是要看在每一個子計畫裡面他所稱要做的事情到底有沒有做到。 預算有沒有編列。 因為這樣才是人員有沒有到位。 那如果沒有的話就表示這整個全民防衛沒有辦法達到功能。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 514.418, \"end\": 514.558, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 514.558, \"end\": 514.658, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 514.658, \"end\": 514.778, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 514.778, \"end\": 515.138, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 515.138, \"end\": 515.719, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"圖\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 515.719, \"end\": 515.979, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 515.979, \"end\": 516.159, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 516.159, \"end\": 516.319, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 516.319, \"end\": 516.5, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 516.5, 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{\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 519.282, \"end\": 519.903, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 519.903, \"end\": 520.103, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 520.103, \"end\": 520.543, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 520.543, \"end\": 521.424, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 521.424, \"end\": 522.145, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"綱\"}, {\"word\": \"領\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 522.145, \"end\": 522.285, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 522.285, \"end\": 522.425, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 522.425, \"end\": 522.605, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 522.605, \"end\": 522.725, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 522.725, \"end\": 522.926, \"score\": 0.878}, 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{\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 532.154, \"end\": 532.254, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 532.254, \"end\": 532.595, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 532.595, \"end\": 533.055, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 533.055, \"end\": 533.436, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 533.436, \"end\": 533.636, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 533.636, \"end\": 533.836, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 533.836, \"end\": 534.236, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 534.236, \"end\": 534.376, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 534.376, \"end\": 534.457, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 534.457, \"end\": 534.597, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 534.597, \"end\": 534.797, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 534.797, \"end\": 535.197, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 535.197, \"end\": 535.337, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 535.337, \"end\": 535.518, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 535.518, \"end\": 535.618, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 535.618, \"end\": 535.738, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 535.738, \"end\": 535.838, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 535.838, \"end\": 536.178, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 536.178, \"end\": 536.318, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 536.318, \"end\": 536.478, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"示\", \"start\": 536.478, \"end\": 536.779, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 536.779, \"end\": 536.999, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 536.999, \"end\": 537.139, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 537.139, \"end\": 537.339, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"防\", 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\"那這邊呢我就有盤點齁這邊就放大就是內政部要做的落實民防人力的準備作業啊我知道從去年開始就有在做準備作業但是後續這個部分到底有沒有在進行呢接下來我想知道的事情是因為在上一任院長的那個施政報告有特別提到兩點一個就是這個進階防災室然後另外一個是這一個所謂的自主緊急應變隊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 555.99, \"end\": 556.47, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 556.47, \"end\": 556.71, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 556.71, \"end\": 556.85, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 556.85, \"end\": 557.071, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 557.071, \"end\": 557.591, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 557.591, \"end\": 557.711, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 557.711, \"end\": 557.891, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 557.891, \"end\": 558.091, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 558.091, \"end\": 558.191, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 558.191, \"end\": 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\"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 705.034, \"end\": 731.888, \"text\": \"好那這一個影片呢其實呢非常重要的一點齁這個在看的過程這是一個印度移工之前的一個議題齁蠻久以前的議題那其實他到底是真是假那個我覺得那是另外一件事情我們最主要不是在關切這一個而是從這個影片裡面呢大概就可以看到他的腳本是一模一樣的他的拍攝手法是一模一樣的他什麼時候插入圖片也是一模一樣的而這樣的影片呢是數以千計當時大量的在網路上被散佈\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 705.034, \"end\": 705.194, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 705.194, \"end\": 705.434, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 705.434, \"end\": 705.634, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 705.634, \"end\": 705.814, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"片\", \"start\": 705.814, \"end\": 706.014, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 706.014, \"end\": 706.194, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 706.194, \"end\": 706.534, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 706.534, \"end\": 706.654, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 706.654, \"end\": 706.734, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 919.886, \"end\": 919.906, \"score\": 0.14}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 920.566, \"end\": 920.646, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 920.646, \"end\": 920.826, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 920.826, \"end\": 920.846, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:15,111 --> 00:00:16,135\n謝謝主席,那有請院長,謝謝。請卓議員長備詢。\n\n2\n00:00:28,021 --> 00:00:53,226\n沈委員好院長好那我今天呢最主要都是問一些跟跨部會有關的最主要除了這個花蓮正在的情形之外還包含這個全民防衛然後還有這個戰略協調的機制不過在一開始呢我想要還是先針對這個最近媒體不斷對我造謠的一件事情來做一個說明謝謝好那第一個呢就是說呢最近因為媒體的欸這個好像沒有沒有作用\n\n3\n00:01:00,202 --> 00:01:00,222\n暫停會議\n\n4\n00:01:10,404 --> 00:01:33,672\n好,這個就是說呢,因為媒體剛好問到第五縱隊啦,那這邊可能也有請法務部長來幫忙做一個說明。就是說,人家說這個有官員指出這個台灣最近有很多的第五縱隊,問說該怎麼辦。那我一直都認為第五縱隊是一個假議題。為什麼我會這樣講呢?其實理由非常的簡單。第五縱隊最主要是指在戰爭的時候,跟敵人裡應外合,在台灣搞顛覆啊什麼等等之類的。\n\n5\n00:01:34,372 --> 00:01:57,782\n但這些人重點是他要怎麼做得到這件事情他可能要有一些名單啊什麼等等之類的所以目前呢我一直都認為與其用第五縱隊這個名詞不如呢去討論到底在臺灣有哪些人風險高哪些人風險低風險高的意思就是他可能時常跟中國的黨政軍有接觸這可能是比較風險高的人風險低的人他可能就是單純他就去到中國\n\n6\n00:01:58,382 --> 00:01:58,522\n﹚沈伯洋﹚\n\n7\n00:02:16,741 --> 00:02:43,192\n所以我提出相關的立法委員附中需要報準這也是剛剛柯委員問到的一個問題我認為這是一個非常合理的規範目前以我們聯審會來講大概兩個禮拜審一審都還是會過去那剛剛呢柯委員有問到說這會不會是一個可能造成所謂的自由被妨害其實很重要的事情是這一個聯審會審查是為了透明化我們要知道這些委員見了什麼人他人在哪裡不然的話他被抓走的話我們要怎麼辦\n\n8\n00:02:43,812 --> 00:03:06,779\n所以他的行程都是應該要上網的嘛,跟現在縣市首長去一樣。那我這邊想問法務部長另外一件事情就是,剛好前陣子有一個新聞,有一個扯鈴教練,他不是立法委員,他是一個扯鈴教練而已。這個扯鈴教練去到中國之後呢,被中國接觸,回來之後呢,洩漏蔡總統當時的一些行程,然後也洩漏了一些當時在飛機上面的貴賓名單。\n\n9\n00:03:08,039 --> 00:03:24,421\n現在檢察官可能已經在偵辦當中了所以他不是一個公務員那他的確可以造成傷害因為他的那一個名單對第五縱隊以後來講的確會造成危險那我這邊想要問另外一個問題就是我現在放在PowerPoint上面的如果是台灣的大學教授去中國\n\n10\n00:03:25,382 --> 00:03:51,838\n結果見到中國統戰部的人員回來之後呢在課堂上面有沒有看到哪一些同學在討論維吾爾議題在討論香港議題甚至認為在討論台獨問題就把它做成一個名單然後就把這個名單交給中國那請問在這樣的一個狀況之下他跟剛剛扯鈴教練不一樣他不是把一個直接國防機密或國防以外機密做洩漏他只是單純做名單而已但這個名單對第五中隊會很重要那請問我們現在對這個的規範會是什麼\n\n11\n00:03:55,445 --> 00:04:09,618\n跟委員報告那目前是沒有直接對這種行為做一個規範那如果說可以是不是可以用各自法第41條來做研究看看有沒有去出犯這一條法條\n\n12\n00:04:10,779 --> 00:04:36,651\n謝謝部長這就很重要的這其實就是我一直不斷在提的因為有很多灰色地帶的事情它可能沒有直接違法或者它只能跟國安無關的法律我們可能做一些措施那這件事情其實正常的因為我們是民主國家我們不能夠直接對人民來做監控但是我們台灣面對中國的威脅是實實在在存在的所以對於這種事情我們要怎麼揭露讓一般人知道這的確是重要的\n\n13\n00:04:37,111 --> 00:04:56,284\n所以往後呢針對這個議題呢我可能還是會一樣在不管在司法法制或者在內政的時候會針對這個議題再做後續的討論所以前面我先來把這件事情釐清一下那接下來我就是要討論跨部會的事情那一開始呢我想要這個講說我們從4月3號發生地震一直到這個5月2號那4月3號這個賴總統當時第一時間就去了\n\n14\n00:05:00,146 --> 00:05:18,346\n五月二號我記得五月二十二卓院長也是一上任馬上就下去了所以這個真的是對當地的一個非常大的鼓舞但我這邊想要提的一件事情就是有兩點第一點是從四月三號到五月二號畢竟還是一個月那過了這一個月到時候才把這個經費拍板其實對當地的人民來講有點慢\n\n15\n00:05:19,747 --> 00:05:35,424\n那慢其實也沒什麼關係,因為表示有充分的討論嘛。那當時有一個最大的問題就是,因為我們的部會太多了。他會負責的事項呢,有房屋啦、醫療啦、震災啦、死亡啦,這些都太多了。所以在當時有一個狀況,譬如說他可能打電話問震災基金會。\n\n16\n00:05:36,886 --> 00:05:37,086\n﹚沈伯洋\n\n17\n00:05:57,006 --> 00:06:19,437\n所以這種橫向的聯繫這件事情還有窗口的問題其實在正在的時候特別重要那台灣又是容易發生災難的地方所以是不是可以請院長可以講一下就是說從你上任以後針對因為你5月22也有下去嘛那個時候針對各部會的協調機制這件事情還有對外的窗口能不能一致並且回答問題這件事情不知道現在有什麼進展\n\n18\n00:06:20,336 --> 00:06:48,571\n好謝謝委員的提醒我想我們在第一時間包括總統我們到現場去不僅是要鼓舞而已我們希望能夠達到實際所以我們那天去回來之後我就趁著這個我們工程會陳主委再要過去的時候我特別請他你去看看那個重建辦公室到底有沒有發揮功能那巨大回報是有固定的人在那裡那我希望他那個功能能夠更具體我也特別要求我們所有的企劃加速核定所有補助都要如實到位\n\n19\n00:06:49,411 --> 00:06:49,811\n總之我希望0403的這個花蓮的震災\n\n20\n00:07:18,075 --> 00:07:23,118\n謝謝部長,因為尤其是辦公室,現在這窗口已經有了,制度也有了,那要點可能要修得再更細一點,這是一定要做的。\n\n21\n00:07:38,388 --> 00:08:03,913\n重點就是在回答問題的時候比如說有時候他在回答的時候他可能講說這可能是某一個部會的事那他變成又要再去另外一個部會問有時候很容易造成一些踢皮球的狀況那我覺得這個一直以來本來在官僚體制之下本來就會有這些情形但希望以後在震災的過程當中這個情形能夠慢慢的減少那接下來我想要問的往下是跟全民防衛有關又回到這個跟這個戰爭或者災害有關的議題\n\n22\n00:08:06,833 --> 00:08:32,756\n全民防衛這邊我們辦公室做了一個圖,這個圖是針對捲動署所提出來的要點跟計畫,這是我們自己畫出來的。可以看到我們有一個動員準備綱領,這個最高指導原則。接下來在這個比較深綠色的部分包含各式各樣不同的準備方案,然後每一個準備方案裡面又有很多子計畫。\n\n23\n00:08:34,418 --> 00:08:58,700\n為什麼我要把這個全圖畫出來很大一個原因就是因為接下來也是要進入到預算會期。如果我們認為動員、準備綱領這件事情、全民防衛這件事情是重要的。那接下來我們就是要看在每一個子計畫裡面他所稱要做的事情到底有沒有做到。預算有沒有編列。因為這樣才是人員有沒有到位。那如果沒有的話就表示這整個全民防衛沒有辦法達到功能。\n\n24\n00:08:59,341 --> 00:08:59,561\n﹚沈伯洋\n\n25\n00:09:15,990 --> 00:09:39,061\n那這邊呢我就有盤點齁這邊就放大就是內政部要做的落實民防人力的準備作業啊我知道從去年開始就有在做準備作業但是後續這個部分到底有沒有在進行呢接下來我想知道的事情是因為在上一任院長的那個施政報告有特別提到兩點一個就是這個進階防災室然後另外一個是這一個所謂的自主緊急應變隊\n\n26\n00:10:00,037 --> 00:10:23,811\n謝謝委員的關心,我們不只前任的院長,現在的卓院長也非常關心,所以我們到目前為止所謂的8000人是按照計畫來進行,譬如說今年的話,我們希望有2000人,也就是每一隊25人,然後能夠用這個災救的方式,不管是救人或是救護或是救援的方式都是在進行當中,而且到目前為止我們已經有培訓的總指教官大概是780人左右。\n\n27\n00:10:25,611 --> 00:10:42,659\n好謝謝部長那顯然有在進行的方向那接下來往後的一些規劃比如課程的進行等等之類這個我就可能等到內政委員會的時候再來多做傾向我可以再補充一下就是防災室的部分在上一次我們的報告是兩萬五千人但是我認為他對於尤其是0403這個花蓮大地震之後\n\n28\n00:10:44,640 --> 00:11:07,240\n對於大規模的災救的部分,我們依照這個防災法,我們希望防災室可以變成是大約總共可以訓練5萬人左右,那現在內政部正在規劃當中。好,謝謝部長,因為這就是跟剛剛講的進階防災室有更大的關聯,因為早期的防災室的訓練,更像是幫助自己比較多,幫助別人稍微少一點,但在進階的時候呢,它很像聯繫變多的時候,就可以做更多了。護住跟護救,對。\n\n29\n00:11:08,221 --> 00:11:28,299\n接下來我想問國防部關於這個相關的資訊相關的一個規劃但因為時間的因素我可能這邊必須要先稍微跳過一下那這個是國防部的部分我就只好等到國防外交反正我在國防外交所以這個部分我可以晚一點再問接下來我想要給院長看一個這個影片那這邊可能要請勞動部\n\n30\n00:11:30,738 --> 00:11:42,815\n如果想保護身邊女生的,今年的選票一定要滲透。我身旁居然有很多人不知道這件事的嚴重性,現在其他社會的討論都已經炸開了。但我看新聞媒體爆料真的是少之又少,好像因為選舉快到了,被刻意的壓了下來。\n\n31\n00:11:45,034 --> 00:12:11,888\n好那這一個影片呢其實呢非常重要的一點齁這個在看的過程這是一個印度移工之前的一個議題齁蠻久以前的議題那其實他到底是真是假那個我覺得那是另外一件事情我們最主要不是在關切這一個而是從這個影片裡面呢大概就可以看到他的腳本是一模一樣的他的拍攝手法是一模一樣的他什麼時候插入圖片也是一模一樣的而這樣的影片呢是數以千計當時大量的在網路上被散佈\n\n32\n00:12:12,688 --> 00:12:39,551\n那除了這個移工相關的事情以外呢,後面等一下還有一個中選會的,但是我就以這個作為例子。簡單來講呢,這是一個龐大的一個網路社群的操作。它至於它跟中國有沒有關,那是另外一件事情,但總之它是一個操作。那我想第一個問,如果說我們從認知作戰這個角度來講,如果今天這是一個國外的進攻,然後要來把這個大量的都散播,那請問勞動部現在如果要偵測這件事情,你們會有這個能力跟機制嗎?\n\n33\n00:12:44,273 --> 00:13:09,179\n我們可以盡速的澄清,可是如果就確認是否是認知作戰,這確實不是勞動部有能力做的。這可能要尋求跨部會的協助。這個部長這個回答其實非常的真實。就是第一個,我們對真實與否政府永遠都是第一時間可以馬上澄清到底有沒有10萬啊,到底這個MOU是簽了沒有啊等等之類的。但是對於大規模的操作,這完全不是勞動部的職責嘛。\n\n34\n00:13:10,419 --> 00:13:35,306\n假設這個背後是解放軍在做,我相信勞動部裡面應該沒有人在做解放軍研究。但是呢,這就是認知作戰第二個重要的部分,除了內容真實與否之外,重點是它的行為模式,它的腳本我們要怎麼去比對,然後呢,我們內容要怎麼去做比對,然後它的手法是不是一致,這是很困難認定的事情。但現在我們的部會能夠做到這件事情的,會有誰?\n\n35\n00:13:36,311 --> 00:13:50,449\n可能法務部有一個認知作戰中心,國防部裡面有新站,又或者速發部其實更有能力做嗎?因為這是跟影片跟資訊有關的一個比對。所以這邊要回到想要問院長就是說,如果我們今天認為這件事情是我們應該要應對的,\n\n36\n00:13:51,770 --> 00:13:51,790\n是。\n\n37\n00:14:08,220 --> 00:14:34,649\n陳律師剛剛委員所提到那幾個部會他都有身負他的責任跟重大的責任那因為現在這種認識作戰的攻擊層出不窮而且數量非常的龐大那我們知道委員在防衛任性跟認識作戰上面是非常有專業的研究將來我們在跨部會的過程當中我們也有政委可以來協助跨部會同時對這種不法的行為做一個比較完整的防衛作用當然各部會的努力還是要努力\n\n38\n00:14:35,069 --> 00:14:54,350\n他發現不法馬上澄清讓人民得到真實的狀況這是第一線那後端的這個前端的防衛系統我們還是要建立起來那希望這邊之後呢可以去責成特定的一個比如說政委他去針對這件事情來做一個跨部會的協調不然能夠做這間分析的人不是沒有但他太散了\n\n39\n00:14:54,770 --> 00:15:19,906\n而且他們對於中國的認識不一定足夠那他怎麼去協助農業部協助勞動部因為他們反而是常常假消息攻擊的對象那我覺得這件事情是非常的重要那最後我可能只有一點點時間我來提一下國民黨提出的這個國家安全戰略法這一個戰略法本身利益非常的良善它是跟行政機關的戰略提出有關但因為我們總統也有國家安全相關的要務所以這件事情我比較擔心也請行政院回去研議\n\n40\n00:15:20,566 --> 00:15:20,846\n好,謝謝沈委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n15111\t16135\t謝謝主席,那有請院長,謝謝。請卓議員長備詢。\n28021\t53226\t沈委員好院長好那我今天呢最主要都是問一些跟跨部會有關的最主要除了這個花蓮正在的情形之外還包含這個全民防衛然後還有這個戰略協調的機制不過在一開始呢我想要還是先針對這個最近媒體不斷對我造謠的一件事情來做一個說明謝謝好那第一個呢就是說呢最近因為媒體的欸這個好像沒有沒有作用\n60202\t60222\t暫停會議\n70404\t93672\t好,這個就是說呢,因為媒體剛好問到第五縱隊啦,那這邊可能也有請法務部長來幫忙做一個說明。就是說,人家說這個有官員指出這個台灣最近有很多的第五縱隊,問說該怎麼辦。那我一直都認為第五縱隊是一個假議題。為什麼我會這樣講呢?其實理由非常的簡單。第五縱隊最主要是指在戰爭的時候,跟敵人裡應外合,在台灣搞顛覆啊什麼等等之類的。\n94372\t117782\t但這些人重點是他要怎麼做得到這件事情他可能要有一些名單啊什麼等等之類的所以目前呢我一直都認為與其用第五縱隊這個名詞不如呢去討論到底在臺灣有哪些人風險高哪些人風險低風險高的意思就是他可能時常跟中國的黨政軍有接觸這可能是比較風險高的人風險低的人他可能就是單純他就去到中國\n118382\t118522\t﹚沈伯洋﹚\n136741\t163192\t所以我提出相關的立法委員附中需要報準這也是剛剛柯委員問到的一個問題我認為這是一個非常合理的規範目前以我們聯審會來講大概兩個禮拜審一審都還是會過去那剛剛呢柯委員有問到說這會不會是一個可能造成所謂的自由被妨害其實很重要的事情是這一個聯審會審查是為了透明化我們要知道這些委員見了什麼人他人在哪裡不然的話他被抓走的話我們要怎麼辦\n163812\t186779\t所以他的行程都是應該要上網的嘛,跟現在縣市首長去一樣。 那我這邊想問法務部長另外一件事情就是,剛好前陣子有一個新聞,有一個扯鈴教練,他不是立法委員,他是一個扯鈴教練而已。 這個扯鈴教練去到中國之後呢,被中國接觸,回來之後呢,洩漏蔡總統當時的一些行程,然後也洩漏了一些當時在飛機上面的貴賓名單。\n188039\t204421\t現在檢察官可能已經在偵辦當中了所以他不是一個公務員那他的確可以造成傷害因為他的那一個名單對第五縱隊以後來講的確會造成危險那我這邊想要問另外一個問題就是我現在放在PowerPoint上面的如果是台灣的大學教授去中國\n205382\t231838\t結果見到中國統戰部的人員回來之後呢在課堂上面有沒有看到哪一些同學在討論維吾爾議題在討論香港議題甚至認為在討論台獨問題就把它做成一個名單然後就把這個名單交給中國那請問在這樣的一個狀況之下他跟剛剛扯鈴教練不一樣他不是把一個直接國防機密或國防以外機密做洩漏他只是單純做名單而已但這個名單對第五中隊會很重要那請問我們現在對這個的規範會是什麼\n235445\t249618\t跟委員報告那目前是沒有直接對這種行為做一個規範那如果說可以是不是可以用各自法第41條來做研究看看有沒有去出犯這一條法條\n250779\t276651\t謝謝部長 這就很重要的 這其實就是我一直不斷在提的因為有很多灰色地帶的事情 它可能沒有直接違法或者它只能跟國安無關的法律 我們可能做一些措施那這件事情其實正常的 因為我們是民主國家我們不能夠直接對人民來做監控但是我們台灣面對中國的威脅 是實實在在存在的所以對於這種事情 我們要怎麼揭露讓一般人知道 這的確是重要的\n277111\t296284\t所以往後呢針對這個議題呢我可能還是會一樣在不管在司法法制或者在內政的時候會針對這個議題再做後續的討論所以前面我先來把這件事情釐清一下那接下來我就是要討論跨部會的事情那一開始呢我想要這個講說我們從4月3號發生地震一直到這個5月2號那4月3號這個賴總統當時第一時間就去了\n300146\t318346\t五月二號我記得五月二十二卓院長也是一上任馬上就下去了所以這個真的是對當地的一個非常大的鼓舞但我這邊想要提的一件事情就是有兩點第一點是從四月三號到五月二號畢竟還是一個月那過了這一個月到時候才把這個經費拍板其實對當地的人民來講有點慢\n319747\t335424\t那慢其實也沒什麼關係,因為表示有充分的討論嘛。 那當時有一個最大的問題就是,因為我們的部會太多了。 他會負責的事項呢,有房屋啦、醫療啦、 震災啦、死亡啦,這些都太多了。 所以在當時有一個狀況,譬如說他可能打電話問震災基金會。\n336886\t337086\t﹚沈伯洋\n357006\t379437\t所以這種橫向的聯繫這件事情還有窗口的問題其實在正在的時候特別重要那台灣又是容易發生災難的地方所以是不是可以請院長可以講一下就是說從你上任以後針對因為你5月22也有下去嘛那個時候針對各部會的協調機制這件事情還有對外的窗口能不能一致並且回答問題這件事情不知道現在有什麼進展\n380336\t408571\t好謝謝委員的提醒我想我們在第一時間包括總統我們到現場去不僅是要鼓舞而已我們希望能夠達到實際所以我們那天去回來之後我就趁著這個我們工程會陳主委再要過去的時候我特別請他你去看看那個重建辦公室到底有沒有發揮功能那巨大回報是有固定的人在那裡那我希望他那個功能能夠更具體我也特別要求我們所有的企劃加速核定所有補助都要如實到位\n409411\t409811\t總之我希望0403的這個花蓮的震災\n438075\t443118\t謝謝部長,因為尤其是辦公室,現在這窗口已經有了,制度也有了,那要點可能要修得再更細一點,這是一定要做的。\n458388\t483913\t重點就是在回答問題的時候比如說有時候他在回答的時候他可能講說這可能是某一個部會的事那他變成又要再去另外一個部會問有時候很容易造成一些踢皮球的狀況那我覺得這個一直以來本來在官僚體制之下本來就會有這些情形但希望以後在震災的過程當中這個情形能夠慢慢的減少那接下來我想要問的往下是跟全民防衛有關又回到這個跟這個戰爭或者災害有關的議題\n486833\t512756\t全民防衛這邊我們辦公室做了一個圖,這個圖是針對捲動署所提出來的要點跟計畫,這是我們自己畫出來的。可以看到我們有一個動員準備綱領,這個最高指導原則。接下來在這個比較深綠色的部分包含各式各樣不同的準備方案,然後每一個準備方案裡面又有很多子計畫。\n514418\t538700\t為什麼我要把這個全圖畫出來很大一個原因就是因為接下來也是要進入到預算會期。 如果我們認為動員、準備綱領這件事情、全民防衛這件事情是重要的。 那接下來我們就是要看在每一個子計畫裡面他所稱要做的事情到底有沒有做到。 預算有沒有編列。 因為這樣才是人員有沒有到位。 那如果沒有的話就表示這整個全民防衛沒有辦法達到功能。\n539341\t539561\t﹚沈伯洋\n555990\t579061\t那這邊呢我就有盤點齁這邊就放大就是內政部要做的落實民防人力的準備作業啊我知道從去年開始就有在做準備作業但是後續這個部分到底有沒有在進行呢接下來我想知道的事情是因為在上一任院長的那個施政報告有特別提到兩點一個就是這個進階防災室然後另外一個是這一個所謂的自主緊急應變隊\n580162\t598729\t謝謝。\n600037\t623811\t謝謝委員的關心,我們不只前任的院長,現在的卓院長也非常關心,所以我們到目前為止所謂的8000人是按照計畫來進行,譬如說今年的話,我們希望有2000人,也就是每一隊25人,然後能夠用這個災救的方式,不管是救人或是救護或是救援的方式都是在進行當中,而且到目前為止我們已經有培訓的總指教官大概是780人左右。\n625611\t642659\t好 謝謝部長那顯然有在進行的方向那接下來往後的一些規劃比如課程的進行等等之類這個我就可能等到內政委員會的時候再來多做傾向我可以再補充一下就是防災室的部分在上一次我們的報告是兩萬五千人但是我認為他對於尤其是0403這個花蓮大地震之後\n644640\t667240\t對於大規模的災救的部分,我們依照這個防災法,我們希望防災室可以變成是大約總共可以訓練5萬人左右,那現在內政部正在規劃當中。好,謝謝部長,因為這就是跟剛剛講的進階防災室有更大的關聯,因為早期的防災室的訓練,更像是幫助自己比較多,幫助別人稍微少一點,但在進階的時候呢,它很像聯繫變多的時候,就可以做更多了。護住跟護救,對。\n668221\t688299\t接下來我想問國防部關於這個相關的資訊相關的一個規劃但因為時間的因素我可能這邊必須要先稍微跳過一下那這個是國防部的部分我就只好等到國防外交反正我在國防外交所以這個部分我可以晚一點再問接下來我想要給院長看一個這個影片那這邊可能要請勞動部\n690738\t702815\t如果想保護身邊女生的,今年的選票一定要滲透。我身旁居然有很多人不知道這件事的嚴重性,現在其他社會的討論都已經炸開了。但我看新聞媒體爆料真的是少之又少,好像因為選舉快到了,被刻意的壓了下來。\n705034\t731888\t好那這一個影片呢其實呢非常重要的一點齁這個在看的過程這是一個印度移工之前的一個議題齁蠻久以前的議題那其實他到底是真是假那個我覺得那是另外一件事情我們最主要不是在關切這一個而是從這個影片裡面呢大概就可以看到他的腳本是一模一樣的他的拍攝手法是一模一樣的他什麼時候插入圖片也是一模一樣的而這樣的影片呢是數以千計當時大量的在網路上被散佈\n732688\t759551\t那除了這個移工相關的事情以外呢,後面等一下還有一個中選會的,但是我就以這個作為例子。簡單來講呢,這是一個龐大的一個網路社群的操作。它至於它跟中國有沒有關,那是另外一件事情,但總之它是一個操作。那我想第一個問,如果說我們從認知作戰這個角度來講,如果今天這是一個國外的進攻,然後要來把這個大量的都散播,那請問勞動部現在如果要偵測這件事情,你們會有這個能力跟機制嗎?\n764273\t789179\t我們可以盡速的澄清,可是如果就確認是否是認知作戰,這確實不是勞動部有能力做的。這可能要尋求跨部會的協助。這個部長這個回答其實非常的真實。就是第一個,我們對真實與否政府永遠都是第一時間可以馬上澄清到底有沒有10萬啊,到底這個MOU是簽了沒有啊等等之類的。但是對於大規模的操作,這完全不是勞動部的職責嘛。\n790419\t815306\t假設這個背後是解放軍在做,我相信勞動部裡面應該沒有人在做解放軍研究。但是呢,這就是認知作戰第二個重要的部分,除了內容真實與否之外,重點是它的行為模式,它的腳本我們要怎麼去比對,然後呢,我們內容要怎麼去做比對,然後它的手法是不是一致,這是很困難認定的事情。但現在我們的部會能夠做到這件事情的,會有誰?\n816311\t830449\t可能法務部有一個認知作戰中心,國防部裡面有新站,又或者速發部其實更有能力做嗎?因為這是跟影片跟資訊有關的一個比對。所以這邊要回到想要問院長就是說,如果我們今天認為這件事情是我們應該要應對的,\n831770\t831790\t是。\n848220\t874649\t陳律師剛剛委員所提到那幾個部會他都有身負他的責任跟重大的責任那因為現在這種認識作戰的攻擊層出不窮而且數量非常的龐大那我們知道委員在防衛任性跟認識作戰上面是非常有專業的研究將來我們在跨部會的過程當中我們也有政委可以來協助跨部會同時對這種不法的行為做一個比較完整的防衛作用當然各部會的努力還是要努力\n875069\t894350\t他發現不法馬上澄清讓人民得到真實的狀況這是第一線那後端的這個前端的防衛系統我們還是要建立起來那希望這邊之後呢可以去責成特定的一個比如說政委他去針對這件事情來做一個跨部會的協調不然能夠做這間分析的人不是沒有但他太散了\n894770\t919906\t而且他們對於中國的認識不一定足夠那他怎麼去協助農業部協助勞動部因為他們反而是常常假消息攻擊的對象那我覺得這件事情是非常的重要那最後我可能只有一點點時間我來提一下國民黨提出的這個國家安全戰略法這一個戰略法本身利益非常的良善它是跟行政機關的戰略提出有關但因為我們總統也有國家安全相關的要務所以這件事情我比較擔心也請行政院回去研議\n920566\t920846\t好,謝謝沈委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席,那有請院長,謝謝。請卓議員長備詢。\n沈委員好院長好那我今天呢最主要都是問一些跟跨部會有關的最主要除了這個花蓮正在的情形之外還包含這個全民防衛然後還有這個戰略協調的機制不過在一開始呢我想要還是先針對這個最近媒體不斷對我造謠的一件事情來做一個說明謝謝好那第一個呢就是說呢最近因為媒體的欸這個好像沒有沒有作用\n暫停會議\n好,這個就是說呢,因為媒體剛好問到第五縱隊啦,那這邊可能也有請法務部長來幫忙做一個說明。就是說,人家說這個有官員指出這個台灣最近有很多的第五縱隊,問說該怎麼辦。那我一直都認為第五縱隊是一個假議題。為什麼我會這樣講呢?其實理由非常的簡單。第五縱隊最主要是指在戰爭的時候,跟敵人裡應外合,在台灣搞顛覆啊什麼等等之類的。\n但這些人重點是他要怎麼做得到這件事情他可能要有一些名單啊什麼等等之類的所以目前呢我一直都認為與其用第五縱隊這個名詞不如呢去討論到底在臺灣有哪些人風險高哪些人風險低風險高的意思就是他可能時常跟中國的黨政軍有接觸這可能是比較風險高的人風險低的人他可能就是單純他就去到中國\n﹚沈伯洋﹚\n所以我提出相關的立法委員附中需要報準這也是剛剛柯委員問到的一個問題我認為這是一個非常合理的規範目前以我們聯審會來講大概兩個禮拜審一審都還是會過去那剛剛呢柯委員有問到說這會不會是一個可能造成所謂的自由被妨害其實很重要的事情是這一個聯審會審查是為了透明化我們要知道這些委員見了什麼人他人在哪裡不然的話他被抓走的話我們要怎麼辦\n所以他的行程都是應該要上網的嘛,跟現在縣市首長去一樣。 那我這邊想問法務部長另外一件事情就是,剛好前陣子有一個新聞,有一個扯鈴教練,他不是立法委員,他是一個扯鈴教練而已。 這個扯鈴教練去到中國之後呢,被中國接觸,回來之後呢,洩漏蔡總統當時的一些行程,然後也洩漏了一些當時在飛機上面的貴賓名單。\n現在檢察官可能已經在偵辦當中了所以他不是一個公務員那他的確可以造成傷害因為他的那一個名單對第五縱隊以後來講的確會造成危險那我這邊想要問另外一個問題就是我現在放在PowerPoint上面的如果是台灣的大學教授去中國\n結果見到中國統戰部的人員回來之後呢在課堂上面有沒有看到哪一些同學在討論維吾爾議題在討論香港議題甚至認為在討論台獨問題就把它做成一個名單然後就把這個名單交給中國那請問在這樣的一個狀況之下他跟剛剛扯鈴教練不一樣他不是把一個直接國防機密或國防以外機密做洩漏他只是單純做名單而已但這個名單對第五中隊會很重要那請問我們現在對這個的規範會是什麼\n跟委員報告那目前是沒有直接對這種行為做一個規範那如果說可以是不是可以用各自法第41條來做研究看看有沒有去出犯這一條法條\n謝謝部長 這就很重要的 這其實就是我一直不斷在提的因為有很多灰色地帶的事情 它可能沒有直接違法或者它只能跟國安無關的法律 我們可能做一些措施那這件事情其實正常的 因為我們是民主國家我們不能夠直接對人民來做監控但是我們台灣面對中國的威脅 是實實在在存在的所以對於這種事情 我們要怎麼揭露讓一般人知道 這的確是重要的\n所以往後呢針對這個議題呢我可能還是會一樣在不管在司法法制或者在內政的時候會針對這個議題再做後續的討論所以前面我先來把這件事情釐清一下那接下來我就是要討論跨部會的事情那一開始呢我想要這個講說我們從4月3號發生地震一直到這個5月2號那4月3號這個賴總統當時第一時間就去了\n五月二號我記得五月二十二卓院長也是一上任馬上就下去了所以這個真的是對當地的一個非常大的鼓舞但我這邊想要提的一件事情就是有兩點第一點是從四月三號到五月二號畢竟還是一個月那過了這一個月到時候才把這個經費拍板其實對當地的人民來講有點慢\n那慢其實也沒什麼關係,因為表示有充分的討論嘛。 那當時有一個最大的問題就是,因為我們的部會太多了。 他會負責的事項呢,有房屋啦、醫療啦、 震災啦、死亡啦,這些都太多了。 所以在當時有一個狀況,譬如說他可能打電話問震災基金會。\n﹚沈伯洋\n所以這種橫向的聯繫這件事情還有窗口的問題其實在正在的時候特別重要那台灣又是容易發生災難的地方所以是不是可以請院長可以講一下就是說從你上任以後針對因為你5月22也有下去嘛那個時候針對各部會的協調機制這件事情還有對外的窗口能不能一致並且回答問題這件事情不知道現在有什麼進展\n好謝謝委員的提醒我想我們在第一時間包括總統我們到現場去不僅是要鼓舞而已我們希望能夠達到實際所以我們那天去回來之後我就趁著這個我們工程會陳主委再要過去的時候我特別請他你去看看那個重建辦公室到底有沒有發揮功能那巨大回報是有固定的人在那裡那我希望他那個功能能夠更具體我也特別要求我們所有的企劃加速核定所有補助都要如實到位\n總之我希望0403的這個花蓮的震災\n謝謝部長,因為尤其是辦公室,現在這窗口已經有了,制度也有了,那要點可能要修得再更細一點,這是一定要做的。\n重點就是在回答問題的時候比如說有時候他在回答的時候他可能講說這可能是某一個部會的事那他變成又要再去另外一個部會問有時候很容易造成一些踢皮球的狀況那我覺得這個一直以來本來在官僚體制之下本來就會有這些情形但希望以後在震災的過程當中這個情形能夠慢慢的減少那接下來我想要問的往下是跟全民防衛有關又回到這個跟這個戰爭或者災害有關的議題\n全民防衛這邊我們辦公室做了一個圖,這個圖是針對捲動署所提出來的要點跟計畫,這是我們自己畫出來的。可以看到我們有一個動員準備綱領,這個最高指導原則。接下來在這個比較深綠色的部分包含各式各樣不同的準備方案,然後每一個準備方案裡面又有很多子計畫。\n為什麼我要把這個全圖畫出來很大一個原因就是因為接下來也是要進入到預算會期。 如果我們認為動員、準備綱領這件事情、全民防衛這件事情是重要的。 那接下來我們就是要看在每一個子計畫裡面他所稱要做的事情到底有沒有做到。 預算有沒有編列。 因為這樣才是人員有沒有到位。 那如果沒有的話就表示這整個全民防衛沒有辦法達到功能。\n﹚沈伯洋\n那這邊呢我就有盤點齁這邊就放大就是內政部要做的落實民防人力的準備作業啊我知道從去年開始就有在做準備作業但是後續這個部分到底有沒有在進行呢接下來我想知道的事情是因為在上一任院長的那個施政報告有特別提到兩點一個就是這個進階防災室然後另外一個是這一個所謂的自主緊急應變隊\n謝謝。\n謝謝委員的關心,我們不只前任的院長,現在的卓院長也非常關心,所以我們到目前為止所謂的8000人是按照計畫來進行,譬如說今年的話,我們希望有2000人,也就是每一隊25人,然後能夠用這個災救的方式,不管是救人或是救護或是救援的方式都是在進行當中,而且到目前為止我們已經有培訓的總指教官大概是780人左右。\n好 謝謝部長那顯然有在進行的方向那接下來往後的一些規劃比如課程的進行等等之類這個我就可能等到內政委員會的時候再來多做傾向我可以再補充一下就是防災室的部分在上一次我們的報告是兩萬五千人但是我認為他對於尤其是0403這個花蓮大地震之後\n對於大規模的災救的部分,我們依照這個防災法,我們希望防災室可以變成是大約總共可以訓練5萬人左右,那現在內政部正在規劃當中。好,謝謝部長,因為這就是跟剛剛講的進階防災室有更大的關聯,因為早期的防災室的訓練,更像是幫助自己比較多,幫助別人稍微少一點,但在進階的時候呢,它很像聯繫變多的時候,就可以做更多了。護住跟護救,對。\n接下來我想問國防部關於這個相關的資訊相關的一個規劃但因為時間的因素我可能這邊必須要先稍微跳過一下那這個是國防部的部分我就只好等到國防外交反正我在國防外交所以這個部分我可以晚一點再問接下來我想要給院長看一個這個影片那這邊可能要請勞動部\n如果想保護身邊女生的,今年的選票一定要滲透。我身旁居然有很多人不知道這件事的嚴重性,現在其他社會的討論都已經炸開了。但我看新聞媒體爆料真的是少之又少,好像因為選舉快到了,被刻意的壓了下來。\n好那這一個影片呢其實呢非常重要的一點齁這個在看的過程這是一個印度移工之前的一個議題齁蠻久以前的議題那其實他到底是真是假那個我覺得那是另外一件事情我們最主要不是在關切這一個而是從這個影片裡面呢大概就可以看到他的腳本是一模一樣的他的拍攝手法是一模一樣的他什麼時候插入圖片也是一模一樣的而這樣的影片呢是數以千計當時大量的在網路上被散佈\n那除了這個移工相關的事情以外呢,後面等一下還有一個中選會的,但是我就以這個作為例子。簡單來講呢,這是一個龐大的一個網路社群的操作。它至於它跟中國有沒有關,那是另外一件事情,但總之它是一個操作。那我想第一個問,如果說我們從認知作戰這個角度來講,如果今天這是一個國外的進攻,然後要來把這個大量的都散播,那請問勞動部現在如果要偵測這件事情,你們會有這個能力跟機制嗎?\n我們可以盡速的澄清,可是如果就確認是否是認知作戰,這確實不是勞動部有能力做的。這可能要尋求跨部會的協助。這個部長這個回答其實非常的真實。就是第一個,我們對真實與否政府永遠都是第一時間可以馬上澄清到底有沒有10萬啊,到底這個MOU是簽了沒有啊等等之類的。但是對於大規模的操作,這完全不是勞動部的職責嘛。\n假設這個背後是解放軍在做,我相信勞動部裡面應該沒有人在做解放軍研究。但是呢,這就是認知作戰第二個重要的部分,除了內容真實與否之外,重點是它的行為模式,它的腳本我們要怎麼去比對,然後呢,我們內容要怎麼去做比對,然後它的手法是不是一致,這是很困難認定的事情。但現在我們的部會能夠做到這件事情的,會有誰?\n可能法務部有一個認知作戰中心,國防部裡面有新站,又或者速發部其實更有能力做嗎?因為這是跟影片跟資訊有關的一個比對。所以這邊要回到想要問院長就是說,如果我們今天認為這件事情是我們應該要應對的,\n是。\n陳律師剛剛委員所提到那幾個部會他都有身負他的責任跟重大的責任那因為現在這種認識作戰的攻擊層出不窮而且數量非常的龐大那我們知道委員在防衛任性跟認識作戰上面是非常有專業的研究將來我們在跨部會的過程當中我們也有政委可以來協助跨部會同時對這種不法的行為做一個比較完整的防衛作用當然各部會的努力還是要努力\n他發現不法馬上澄清讓人民得到真實的狀況這是第一線那後端的這個前端的防衛系統我們還是要建立起來那希望這邊之後呢可以去責成特定的一個比如說政委他去針對這件事情來做一個跨部會的協調不然能夠做這間分析的人不是沒有但他太散了\n而且他們對於中國的認識不一定足夠那他怎麼去協助農業部協助勞動部因為他們反而是常常假消息攻擊的對象那我覺得這件事情是非常的重要那最後我可能只有一點點時間我來提一下國民黨提出的這個國家安全戰略法這一個戰略法本身利益非常的良善它是跟行政機關的戰略提出有關但因為我們總統也有國家安全相關的要務所以這件事情我比較擔心也請行政院回去研議\n好,謝謝沈委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:15.111 --> 00:16.135\n謝謝主席,那有請院長,謝謝。請卓議員長備詢。\n\n00:28.021 --> 00:53.226\n沈委員好院長好那我今天呢最主要都是問一些跟跨部會有關的最主要除了這個花蓮正在的情形之外還包含這個全民防衛然後還有這個戰略協調的機制不過在一開始呢我想要還是先針對這個最近媒體不斷對我造謠的一件事情來做一個說明謝謝好那第一個呢就是說呢最近因為媒體的欸這個好像沒有沒有作用\n\n01:00.202 --> 01:00.222\n暫停會議\n\n01:10.404 --> 01:33.672\n好,這個就是說呢,因為媒體剛好問到第五縱隊啦,那這邊可能也有請法務部長來幫忙做一個說明。就是說,人家說這個有官員指出這個台灣最近有很多的第五縱隊,問說該怎麼辦。那我一直都認為第五縱隊是一個假議題。為什麼我會這樣講呢?其實理由非常的簡單。第五縱隊最主要是指在戰爭的時候,跟敵人裡應外合,在台灣搞顛覆啊什麼等等之類的。\n\n01:34.372 --> 01:57.782\n但這些人重點是他要怎麼做得到這件事情他可能要有一些名單啊什麼等等之類的所以目前呢我一直都認為與其用第五縱隊這個名詞不如呢去討論到底在臺灣有哪些人風險高哪些人風險低風險高的意思就是他可能時常跟中國的黨政軍有接觸這可能是比較風險高的人風險低的人他可能就是單純他就去到中國\n\n01:58.382 --> 01:58.522\n﹚沈伯洋﹚\n\n02:16.741 --> 02:43.192\n所以我提出相關的立法委員附中需要報準這也是剛剛柯委員問到的一個問題我認為這是一個非常合理的規範目前以我們聯審會來講大概兩個禮拜審一審都還是會過去那剛剛呢柯委員有問到說這會不會是一個可能造成所謂的自由被妨害其實很重要的事情是這一個聯審會審查是為了透明化我們要知道這些委員見了什麼人他人在哪裡不然的話他被抓走的話我們要怎麼辦\n\n02:43.812 --> 03:06.779\n所以他的行程都是應該要上網的嘛,跟現在縣市首長去一樣。那我這邊想問法務部長另外一件事情就是,剛好前陣子有一個新聞,有一個扯鈴教練,他不是立法委員,他是一個扯鈴教練而已。這個扯鈴教練去到中國之後呢,被中國接觸,回來之後呢,洩漏蔡總統當時的一些行程,然後也洩漏了一些當時在飛機上面的貴賓名單。\n\n03:08.039 --> 03:24.421\n現在檢察官可能已經在偵辦當中了所以他不是一個公務員那他的確可以造成傷害因為他的那一個名單對第五縱隊以後來講的確會造成危險那我這邊想要問另外一個問題就是我現在放在PowerPoint上面的如果是台灣的大學教授去中國\n\n03:25.382 --> 03:51.838\n結果見到中國統戰部的人員回來之後呢在課堂上面有沒有看到哪一些同學在討論維吾爾議題在討論香港議題甚至認為在討論台獨問題就把它做成一個名單然後就把這個名單交給中國那請問在這樣的一個狀況之下他跟剛剛扯鈴教練不一樣他不是把一個直接國防機密或國防以外機密做洩漏他只是單純做名單而已但這個名單對第五中隊會很重要那請問我們現在對這個的規範會是什麼\n\n03:55.445 --> 04:09.618\n跟委員報告那目前是沒有直接對這種行為做一個規範那如果說可以是不是可以用各自法第41條來做研究看看有沒有去出犯這一條法條\n\n04:10.779 --> 04:36.651\n謝謝部長這就很重要的這其實就是我一直不斷在提的因為有很多灰色地帶的事情它可能沒有直接違法或者它只能跟國安無關的法律我們可能做一些措施那這件事情其實正常的因為我們是民主國家我們不能夠直接對人民來做監控但是我們台灣面對中國的威脅是實實在在存在的所以對於這種事情我們要怎麼揭露讓一般人知道這的確是重要的\n\n04:37.111 --> 04:56.284\n所以往後呢針對這個議題呢我可能還是會一樣在不管在司法法制或者在內政的時候會針對這個議題再做後續的討論所以前面我先來把這件事情釐清一下那接下來我就是要討論跨部會的事情那一開始呢我想要這個講說我們從4月3號發生地震一直到這個5月2號那4月3號這個賴總統當時第一時間就去了\n\n05:00.146 --> 05:18.346\n五月二號我記得五月二十二卓院長也是一上任馬上就下去了所以這個真的是對當地的一個非常大的鼓舞但我這邊想要提的一件事情就是有兩點第一點是從四月三號到五月二號畢竟還是一個月那過了這一個月到時候才把這個經費拍板其實對當地的人民來講有點慢\n\n05:19.747 --> 05:35.424\n那慢其實也沒什麼關係,因為表示有充分的討論嘛。那當時有一個最大的問題就是,因為我們的部會太多了。他會負責的事項呢,有房屋啦、醫療啦、震災啦、死亡啦,這些都太多了。所以在當時有一個狀況,譬如說他可能打電話問震災基金會。\n\n05:36.886 --> 05:37.086\n﹚沈伯洋\n\n05:57.006 --> 06:19.437\n所以這種橫向的聯繫這件事情還有窗口的問題其實在正在的時候特別重要那台灣又是容易發生災難的地方所以是不是可以請院長可以講一下就是說從你上任以後針對因為你5月22也有下去嘛那個時候針對各部會的協調機制這件事情還有對外的窗口能不能一致並且回答問題這件事情不知道現在有什麼進展\n\n06:20.336 --> 06:48.571\n好謝謝委員的提醒我想我們在第一時間包括總統我們到現場去不僅是要鼓舞而已我們希望能夠達到實際所以我們那天去回來之後我就趁著這個我們工程會陳主委再要過去的時候我特別請他你去看看那個重建辦公室到底有沒有發揮功能那巨大回報是有固定的人在那裡那我希望他那個功能能夠更具體我也特別要求我們所有的企劃加速核定所有補助都要如實到位\n\n06:49.411 --> 06:49.811\n總之我希望0403的這個花蓮的震災\n\n07:18.075 --> 07:23.118\n謝謝部長,因為尤其是辦公室,現在這窗口已經有了,制度也有了,那要點可能要修得再更細一點,這是一定要做的。\n\n07:38.388 --> 08:03.913\n重點就是在回答問題的時候比如說有時候他在回答的時候他可能講說這可能是某一個部會的事那他變成又要再去另外一個部會問有時候很容易造成一些踢皮球的狀況那我覺得這個一直以來本來在官僚體制之下本來就會有這些情形但希望以後在震災的過程當中這個情形能夠慢慢的減少那接下來我想要問的往下是跟全民防衛有關又回到這個跟這個戰爭或者災害有關的議題\n\n08:06.833 --> 08:32.756\n全民防衛這邊我們辦公室做了一個圖,這個圖是針對捲動署所提出來的要點跟計畫,這是我們自己畫出來的。可以看到我們有一個動員準備綱領,這個最高指導原則。接下來在這個比較深綠色的部分包含各式各樣不同的準備方案,然後每一個準備方案裡面又有很多子計畫。\n\n08:34.418 --> 08:58.700\n為什麼我要把這個全圖畫出來很大一個原因就是因為接下來也是要進入到預算會期。如果我們認為動員、準備綱領這件事情、全民防衛這件事情是重要的。那接下來我們就是要看在每一個子計畫裡面他所稱要做的事情到底有沒有做到。預算有沒有編列。因為這樣才是人員有沒有到位。那如果沒有的話就表示這整個全民防衛沒有辦法達到功能。\n\n08:59.341 --> 08:59.561\n﹚沈伯洋\n\n09:15.990 --> 09:39.061\n那這邊呢我就有盤點齁這邊就放大就是內政部要做的落實民防人力的準備作業啊我知道從去年開始就有在做準備作業但是後續這個部分到底有沒有在進行呢接下來我想知道的事情是因為在上一任院長的那個施政報告有特別提到兩點一個就是這個進階防災室然後另外一個是這一個所謂的自主緊急應變隊\n\n10:00.037 --> 10:23.811\n謝謝委員的關心,我們不只前任的院長,現在的卓院長也非常關心,所以我們到目前為止所謂的8000人是按照計畫來進行,譬如說今年的話,我們希望有2000人,也就是每一隊25人,然後能夠用這個災救的方式,不管是救人或是救護或是救援的方式都是在進行當中,而且到目前為止我們已經有培訓的總指教官大概是780人左右。\n\n10:25.611 --> 10:42.659\n好謝謝部長那顯然有在進行的方向那接下來往後的一些規劃比如課程的進行等等之類這個我就可能等到內政委員會的時候再來多做傾向我可以再補充一下就是防災室的部分在上一次我們的報告是兩萬五千人但是我認為他對於尤其是0403這個花蓮大地震之後\n\n10:44.640 --> 11:07.240\n對於大規模的災救的部分,我們依照這個防災法,我們希望防災室可以變成是大約總共可以訓練5萬人左右,那現在內政部正在規劃當中。好,謝謝部長,因為這就是跟剛剛講的進階防災室有更大的關聯,因為早期的防災室的訓練,更像是幫助自己比較多,幫助別人稍微少一點,但在進階的時候呢,它很像聯繫變多的時候,就可以做更多了。護住跟護救,對。\n\n11:08.221 --> 11:28.299\n接下來我想問國防部關於這個相關的資訊相關的一個規劃但因為時間的因素我可能這邊必須要先稍微跳過一下那這個是國防部的部分我就只好等到國防外交反正我在國防外交所以這個部分我可以晚一點再問接下來我想要給院長看一個這個影片那這邊可能要請勞動部\n\n11:30.738 --> 11:42.815\n如果想保護身邊女生的,今年的選票一定要滲透。我身旁居然有很多人不知道這件事的嚴重性,現在其他社會的討論都已經炸開了。但我看新聞媒體爆料真的是少之又少,好像因為選舉快到了,被刻意的壓了下來。\n\n11:45.034 --> 12:11.888\n好那這一個影片呢其實呢非常重要的一點齁這個在看的過程這是一個印度移工之前的一個議題齁蠻久以前的議題那其實他到底是真是假那個我覺得那是另外一件事情我們最主要不是在關切這一個而是從這個影片裡面呢大概就可以看到他的腳本是一模一樣的他的拍攝手法是一模一樣的他什麼時候插入圖片也是一模一樣的而這樣的影片呢是數以千計當時大量的在網路上被散佈\n\n12:12.688 --> 12:39.551\n那除了這個移工相關的事情以外呢,後面等一下還有一個中選會的,但是我就以這個作為例子。簡單來講呢,這是一個龐大的一個網路社群的操作。它至於它跟中國有沒有關,那是另外一件事情,但總之它是一個操作。那我想第一個問,如果說我們從認知作戰這個角度來講,如果今天這是一個國外的進攻,然後要來把這個大量的都散播,那請問勞動部現在如果要偵測這件事情,你們會有這個能力跟機制嗎?\n\n12:44.273 --> 13:09.179\n我們可以盡速的澄清,可是如果就確認是否是認知作戰,這確實不是勞動部有能力做的。這可能要尋求跨部會的協助。這個部長這個回答其實非常的真實。就是第一個,我們對真實與否政府永遠都是第一時間可以馬上澄清到底有沒有10萬啊,到底這個MOU是簽了沒有啊等等之類的。但是對於大規模的操作,這完全不是勞動部的職責嘛。\n\n13:10.419 --> 13:35.306\n假設這個背後是解放軍在做,我相信勞動部裡面應該沒有人在做解放軍研究。但是呢,這就是認知作戰第二個重要的部分,除了內容真實與否之外,重點是它的行為模式,它的腳本我們要怎麼去比對,然後呢,我們內容要怎麼去做比對,然後它的手法是不是一致,這是很困難認定的事情。但現在我們的部會能夠做到這件事情的,會有誰?\n\n13:36.311 --> 13:50.449\n可能法務部有一個認知作戰中心,國防部裡面有新站,又或者速發部其實更有能力做嗎?因為這是跟影片跟資訊有關的一個比對。所以這邊要回到想要問院長就是說,如果我們今天認為這件事情是我們應該要應對的,\n\n13:51.770 --> 13:51.790\n是。\n\n14:08.220 --> 14:34.649\n陳律師剛剛委員所提到那幾個部會他都有身負他的責任跟重大的責任那因為現在這種認識作戰的攻擊層出不窮而且數量非常的龐大那我們知道委員在防衛任性跟認識作戰上面是非常有專業的研究將來我們在跨部會的過程當中我們也有政委可以來協助跨部會同時對這種不法的行為做一個比較完整的防衛作用當然各部會的努力還是要努力\n\n14:35.069 --> 14:54.350\n他發現不法馬上澄清讓人民得到真實的狀況這是第一線那後端的這個前端的防衛系統我們還是要建立起來那希望這邊之後呢可以去責成特定的一個比如說政委他去針對這件事情來做一個跨部會的協調不然能夠做這間分析的人不是沒有但他太散了\n\n14:54.770 --> 15:19.906\n而且他們對於中國的認識不一定足夠那他怎麼去協助農業部協助勞動部因為他們反而是常常假消息攻擊的對象那我覺得這件事情是非常的重要那最後我可能只有一點點時間我來提一下國民黨提出的這個國家安全戰略法這一個戰略法本身利益非常的良善它是跟行政機關的戰略提出有關但因為我們總統也有國家安全相關的要務所以這件事情我比較擔心也請行政院回去研議\n\n15:20.566 --> 15:20.846\n好,謝謝沈委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":15.111,"end":16.135,"text":"謝謝主席,那有請院長,謝謝。請卓議員長備詢。"},{"start":28.021,"end":53.226,"text":"沈委員好院長好那我今天呢最主要都是問一些跟跨部會有關的最主要除了這個花蓮正在的情形之外還包含這個全民防衛然後還有這個戰略協調的機制不過在一開始呢我想要還是先針對這個最近媒體不斷對我造謠的一件事情來做一個說明謝謝好那第一個呢就是說呢最近因為媒體的欸這個好像沒有沒有作用"},{"start":60.202,"end":60.222,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":70.404,"end":93.672,"text":"好,這個就是說呢,因為媒體剛好問到第五縱隊啦,那這邊可能也有請法務部長來幫忙做一個說明。就是說,人家說這個有官員指出這個台灣最近有很多的第五縱隊,問說該怎麼辦。那我一直都認為第五縱隊是一個假議題。為什麼我會這樣講呢?其實理由非常的簡單。第五縱隊最主要是指在戰爭的時候,跟敵人裡應外合,在台灣搞顛覆啊什麼等等之類的。"},{"start":94.372,"end":117.782,"text":"但這些人重點是他要怎麼做得到這件事情他可能要有一些名單啊什麼等等之類的所以目前呢我一直都認為與其用第五縱隊這個名詞不如呢去討論到底在臺灣有哪些人風險高哪些人風險低風險高的意思就是他可能時常跟中國的黨政軍有接觸這可能是比較風險高的人風險低的人他可能就是單純他就去到中國"},{"start":118.382,"end":118.522,"text":"﹚沈伯洋﹚"},{"start":136.741,"end":163.192,"text":"所以我提出相關的立法委員附中需要報準這也是剛剛柯委員問到的一個問題我認為這是一個非常合理的規範目前以我們聯審會來講大概兩個禮拜審一審都還是會過去那剛剛呢柯委員有問到說這會不會是一個可能造成所謂的自由被妨害其實很重要的事情是這一個聯審會審查是為了透明化我們要知道這些委員見了什麼人他人在哪裡不然的話他被抓走的話我們要怎麼辦"},{"start":163.812,"end":186.779,"text":"所以他的行程都是應該要上網的嘛,跟現在縣市首長去一樣。 那我這邊想問法務部長另外一件事情就是,剛好前陣子有一個新聞,有一個扯鈴教練,他不是立法委員,他是一個扯鈴教練而已。 這個扯鈴教練去到中國之後呢,被中國接觸,回來之後呢,洩漏蔡總統當時的一些行程,然後也洩漏了一些當時在飛機上面的貴賓名單。"},{"start":188.039,"end":204.421,"text":"現在檢察官可能已經在偵辦當中了所以他不是一個公務員那他的確可以造成傷害因為他的那一個名單對第五縱隊以後來講的確會造成危險那我這邊想要問另外一個問題就是我現在放在PowerPoint上面的如果是台灣的大學教授去中國"},{"start":205.382,"end":231.838,"text":"結果見到中國統戰部的人員回來之後呢在課堂上面有沒有看到哪一些同學在討論維吾爾議題在討論香港議題甚至認為在討論台獨問題就把它做成一個名單然後就把這個名單交給中國那請問在這樣的一個狀況之下他跟剛剛扯鈴教練不一樣他不是把一個直接國防機密或國防以外機密做洩漏他只是單純做名單而已但這個名單對第五中隊會很重要那請問我們現在對這個的規範會是什麼"},{"start":235.445,"end":249.618,"text":"跟委員報告那目前是沒有直接對這種行為做一個規範那如果說可以是不是可以用各自法第41條來做研究看看有沒有去出犯這一條法條"},{"start":250.779,"end":276.651,"text":"謝謝部長 這就很重要的 這其實就是我一直不斷在提的因為有很多灰色地帶的事情 它可能沒有直接違法或者它只能跟國安無關的法律 我們可能做一些措施那這件事情其實正常的 因為我們是民主國家我們不能夠直接對人民來做監控但是我們台灣面對中國的威脅 是實實在在存在的所以對於這種事情 我們要怎麼揭露讓一般人知道 這的確是重要的"},{"start":277.111,"end":296.284,"text":"所以往後呢針對這個議題呢我可能還是會一樣在不管在司法法制或者在內政的時候會針對這個議題再做後續的討論所以前面我先來把這件事情釐清一下那接下來我就是要討論跨部會的事情那一開始呢我想要這個講說我們從4月3號發生地震一直到這個5月2號那4月3號這個賴總統當時第一時間就去了"},{"start":300.146,"end":318.346,"text":"五月二號我記得五月二十二卓院長也是一上任馬上就下去了所以這個真的是對當地的一個非常大的鼓舞但我這邊想要提的一件事情就是有兩點第一點是從四月三號到五月二號畢竟還是一個月那過了這一個月到時候才把這個經費拍板其實對當地的人民來講有點慢"},{"start":319.747,"end":335.424,"text":" 那慢其實也沒什麼關係,因為表示有充分的討論嘛。 那當時有一個最大的問題就是,因為我們的部會太多了。 他會負責的事項呢,有房屋啦、醫療啦、 震災啦、死亡啦,這些都太多了。 所以在當時有一個狀況,譬如說他可能打電話問震災基金會。"},{"start":336.886,"end":337.086,"text":"﹚沈伯洋"},{"start":357.006,"end":379.437,"text":"所以這種橫向的聯繫這件事情還有窗口的問題其實在正在的時候特別重要那台灣又是容易發生災難的地方所以是不是可以請院長可以講一下就是說從你上任以後針對因為你5月22也有下去嘛那個時候針對各部會的協調機制這件事情還有對外的窗口能不能一致並且回答問題這件事情不知道現在有什麼進展"},{"start":380.336,"end":408.571,"text":"好謝謝委員的提醒我想我們在第一時間包括總統我們到現場去不僅是要鼓舞而已我們希望能夠達到實際所以我們那天去回來之後我就趁著這個我們工程會陳主委再要過去的時候我特別請他你去看看那個重建辦公室到底有沒有發揮功能那巨大回報是有固定的人在那裡那我希望他那個功能能夠更具體我也特別要求我們所有的企劃加速核定所有補助都要如實到位"},{"start":409.411,"end":409.811,"text":"總之我希望0403的這個花蓮的震災"},{"start":438.075,"end":443.118,"text":"謝謝部長,因為尤其是辦公室,現在這窗口已經有了,制度也有了,那要點可能要修得再更細一點,這是一定要做的。"},{"start":458.388,"end":483.913,"text":"重點就是在回答問題的時候比如說有時候他在回答的時候他可能講說這可能是某一個部會的事那他變成又要再去另外一個部會問有時候很容易造成一些踢皮球的狀況那我覺得這個一直以來本來在官僚體制之下本來就會有這些情形但希望以後在震災的過程當中這個情形能夠慢慢的減少那接下來我想要問的往下是跟全民防衛有關又回到這個跟這個戰爭或者災害有關的議題"},{"start":486.833,"end":512.756,"text":"全民防衛這邊我們辦公室做了一個圖,這個圖是針對捲動署所提出來的要點跟計畫,這是我們自己畫出來的。可以看到我們有一個動員準備綱領,這個最高指導原則。接下來在這個比較深綠色的部分包含各式各樣不同的準備方案,然後每一個準備方案裡面又有很多子計畫。"},{"start":514.418,"end":538.7,"text":"為什麼我要把這個全圖畫出來很大一個原因就是因為接下來也是要進入到預算會期。 如果我們認為動員、準備綱領這件事情、全民防衛這件事情是重要的。 那接下來我們就是要看在每一個子計畫裡面他所稱要做的事情到底有沒有做到。 預算有沒有編列。 因為這樣才是人員有沒有到位。 那如果沒有的話就表示這整個全民防衛沒有辦法達到功能。"},{"start":539.341,"end":539.561,"text":"﹚沈伯洋"},{"start":555.99,"end":579.061,"text":"那這邊呢我就有盤點齁這邊就放大就是內政部要做的落實民防人力的準備作業啊我知道從去年開始就有在做準備作業但是後續這個部分到底有沒有在進行呢接下來我想知道的事情是因為在上一任院長的那個施政報告有特別提到兩點一個就是這個進階防災室然後另外一個是這一個所謂的自主緊急應變隊"},{"start":580.162,"end":598.729,"text":"謝謝。"},{"start":600.037,"end":623.811,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,我們不只前任的院長,現在的卓院長也非常關心,所以我們到目前為止所謂的8000人是按照計畫來進行,譬如說今年的話,我們希望有2000人,也就是每一隊25人,然後能夠用這個災救的方式,不管是救人或是救護或是救援的方式都是在進行當中,而且到目前為止我們已經有培訓的總指教官大概是780人左右。"},{"start":625.611,"end":642.659,"text":"好 謝謝部長那顯然有在進行的方向那接下來往後的一些規劃比如課程的進行等等之類這個我就可能等到內政委員會的時候再來多做傾向我可以再補充一下就是防災室的部分在上一次我們的報告是兩萬五千人但是我認為他對於尤其是0403這個花蓮大地震之後"},{"start":644.64,"end":667.24,"text":"對於大規模的災救的部分,我們依照這個防災法,我們希望防災室可以變成是大約總共可以訓練5萬人左右,那現在內政部正在規劃當中。好,謝謝部長,因為這就是跟剛剛講的進階防災室有更大的關聯,因為早期的防災室的訓練,更像是幫助自己比較多,幫助別人稍微少一點,但在進階的時候呢,它很像聯繫變多的時候,就可以做更多了。護住跟護救,對。"},{"start":668.221,"end":688.299,"text":"接下來我想問國防部關於這個相關的資訊相關的一個規劃但因為時間的因素我可能這邊必須要先稍微跳過一下那這個是國防部的部分我就只好等到國防外交反正我在國防外交所以這個部分我可以晚一點再問接下來我想要給院長看一個這個影片那這邊可能要請勞動部"},{"start":690.738,"end":702.815,"text":"如果想保護身邊女生的,今年的選票一定要滲透。我身旁居然有很多人不知道這件事的嚴重性,現在其他社會的討論都已經炸開了。但我看新聞媒體爆料真的是少之又少,好像因為選舉快到了,被刻意的壓了下來。"},{"start":705.034,"end":731.888,"text":"好那這一個影片呢其實呢非常重要的一點齁這個在看的過程這是一個印度移工之前的一個議題齁蠻久以前的議題那其實他到底是真是假那個我覺得那是另外一件事情我們最主要不是在關切這一個而是從這個影片裡面呢大概就可以看到他的腳本是一模一樣的他的拍攝手法是一模一樣的他什麼時候插入圖片也是一模一樣的而這樣的影片呢是數以千計當時大量的在網路上被散佈"},{"start":732.688,"end":759.551,"text":"那除了這個移工相關的事情以外呢,後面等一下還有一個中選會的,但是我就以這個作為例子。簡單來講呢,這是一個龐大的一個網路社群的操作。它至於它跟中國有沒有關,那是另外一件事情,但總之它是一個操作。那我想第一個問,如果說我們從認知作戰這個角度來講,如果今天這是一個國外的進攻,然後要來把這個大量的都散播,那請問勞動部現在如果要偵測這件事情,你們會有這個能力跟機制嗎?"},{"start":764.273,"end":789.179,"text":"我們可以盡速的澄清,可是如果就確認是否是認知作戰,這確實不是勞動部有能力做的。這可能要尋求跨部會的協助。這個部長這個回答其實非常的真實。就是第一個,我們對真實與否政府永遠都是第一時間可以馬上澄清到底有沒有10萬啊,到底這個MOU是簽了沒有啊等等之類的。但是對於大規模的操作,這完全不是勞動部的職責嘛。"},{"start":790.419,"end":815.306,"text":"假設這個背後是解放軍在做,我相信勞動部裡面應該沒有人在做解放軍研究。但是呢,這就是認知作戰第二個重要的部分,除了內容真實與否之外,重點是它的行為模式,它的腳本我們要怎麼去比對,然後呢,我們內容要怎麼去做比對,然後它的手法是不是一致,這是很困難認定的事情。但現在我們的部會能夠做到這件事情的,會有誰?"},{"start":816.311,"end":830.449,"text":"可能法務部有一個認知作戰中心,國防部裡面有新站,又或者速發部其實更有能力做嗎?因為這是跟影片跟資訊有關的一個比對。所以這邊要回到想要問院長就是說,如果我們今天認為這件事情是我們應該要應對的,"},{"start":831.77,"end":831.79,"text":"是。"},{"start":848.22,"end":874.649,"text":"陳律師剛剛委員所提到那幾個部會他都有身負他的責任跟重大的責任那因為現在這種認識作戰的攻擊層出不窮而且數量非常的龐大那我們知道委員在防衛任性跟認識作戰上面是非常有專業的研究將來我們在跨部會的過程當中我們也有政委可以來協助跨部會同時對這種不法的行為做一個比較完整的防衛作用當然各部會的努力還是要努力"},{"start":875.069,"end":894.35,"text":"他發現不法馬上澄清讓人民得到真實的狀況這是第一線那後端的這個前端的防衛系統我們還是要建立起來那希望這邊之後呢可以去責成特定的一個比如說政委他去針對這件事情來做一個跨部會的協調不然能夠做這間分析的人不是沒有但他太散了"},{"start":894.77,"end":919.906,"text":"而且他們對於中國的認識不一定足夠那他怎麼去協助農業部協助勞動部因為他們反而是常常假消息攻擊的對象那我覺得這件事情是非常的重要那最後我可能只有一點點時間我來提一下國民黨提出的這個國家安全戰略法這一個戰略法本身利益非常的良善它是跟行政機關的戰略提出有關但因為我們總統也有國家安全相關的要務所以這件事情我比較擔心也請行政院回去研議"},{"start":920.566,"end":920.846,"text":"好,謝謝沈委員"}]}}}}