{"id":153801,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153801","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81908e56f85964679cb98b2dfa55713766c139eec4d40364b4fcd922d4e3181d0355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:27:24 - 09:36:51","影片長度":"00:09:27","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（五）委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（六）委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【第（四）至（六）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T09:27:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T09:36:51+08:00","duration":567,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":254,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時27分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、記者媒體女士先生。有請法務部黃次長。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：麻煩黃次長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：NCC的蔡處長以及警政署的林副局長。"],["主席：NCC蔡處長、林副局長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好，還有處長及副局長好。今天我們是要談科技偵查在刑訴的專章當中，但是我要再次來就教於三位，在之前包括科偵法、包括通保法，以及今天刑訴法在於打擊詐欺的部分，我們談到了很多科技辦案的手段，在我們之前的委員會審查當中有幾個爭點，我要進一步的來確定法務部，可能還有未來司法院的態度。首先關於使用者資料，假設這是一個電信詐騙，被害人報案之後，警察介入調查，首先他會跟電信業者取得犯嫌的使用者資料，是不是這樣子？開始偵辦是不是從這裡開始啟動？"],["黃次長謀信：個案上通常是這樣，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們需要知道使用者的資料，是這樣嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在院版通保法的審查當中，它提到有六項，包括通訊設備識別資料、網際網路位址與位置資料，還有通信時間、連線用量與封包數量，還有網域名稱，以及應用服務類型及協定，對不對？我們那時候有問過為什麼需要這麼多，首先為什麼需要設備識別資料呢？是要確認使用者嗎？請問次長，還是副局長？"],["黃次長謀信：對，上次建置機關的報告有說明通訊設備使用識別資料要包括IMEI跟IMSI，所以委員所提的A……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是確認使用者是誰？犯嫌嘛！鎖定犯嫌之後，接下來請教一下，網際網路的位址與位置資料，目的又是什麼？為何你們需要這個IP？"],["黃次長謀信：這個當然就如同委員在PPT上所講，他確認這個IP是來自哪個國家、城市跟基地臺。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要瞭解犯嫌的所在位置是不是在國內，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這跟你們的犯罪偵查有什麼關聯？"],["黃次長謀信：這個被告他所在地是在哪一個城市或在國內外，會涉及到我們偵查……"],["鍾委員佳濱：發動偵辦很有關係？好，謝謝。那我們就認為它有必要。","再來，你們為什麼要調取網域名稱，原因是什麼？網域名稱能顯現什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，網域的名稱部分不會顯示網址，它就是網域名稱，所以委員在PPT上所寫斜線以下的部分，當然就不會顯現。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，所以我現在說的，以法務部調查局的網頁來看，前面的網域我們只能看到facebook.com，就知道這個平臺是FB的平臺，但是後面taiwan之後調查局的專屬網頁，這個看不到。所以換言之，我們的流量紀錄當中，我們調取了網域名稱，只知道犯嫌可能使用哪一個平臺，但是不曉得這可能的犯嫌去看了哪個網頁或網站，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，接下來我要再請教一下，應用類型服務及協定、連線用量與封包數量，目的又是什麼？為什麼你們需要可能的犯嫌使用哪些應用服務類型？"],["黃次長謀信：對，看他使用哪一種軟體在進行溝通……"],["鍾委員佳濱：目的是什麼？對你們的犯罪偵防有什麼目的？"],["黃次長謀信：他是上網或者是用語音或哪一種犯罪手法而已，至於他詳細的內容要進一步的偵查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我有請刑事局的副局長，你們也同時來。我再舉例，有一種叫做OSI的架構分類，它越往下的是越接近實體設備，越往上的是接近軟體跟應用端。如果以這個例子來講，如果我知道他的應用服務類型，譬如他用app，我知道他是使用像LINE或是使用什麼樣的方式，我可以判斷使用者只是單純的瀏覽網頁，還是傳送檔案，或者他是使用銀行app來轉金流，是不是這個意思？"],["林副局長信雄：是的，我們只能知道他有上這個app。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是要區分他連上去之後，他做什麼事情、哪些類型的事情，但是不曉得確切的內容是什麼？"],["林副局長信雄：不曉得他實際……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以如果我知道到了這個平臺上，他使用LINE這個軟體，我可以看到他們的對話內容嗎？"],["林副局長信雄：沒辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們為什麼要知道他用了LINE要幹嘛？要知道他用LINE幹嘛？告訴被害人準備到哪裡繳錢嗎？還是使用哪些銀行的轉帳嗎？是為了這個目的嗎？"],["林副局長信雄：因為他可能用LINE來作為他犯罪的工具，所以我們必須要瞭解說他用了哪些的軟體。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我綜整這些，次長，我來重組一下，可能的偵查過程，舉例以今天來講，某被害人被犯嫌用LINE傳送了詐騙訊息，因此你們發動偵查之後，取得當時使用該IP的使用人，可是使用這個IP的人有很多，你們要確定到底哪一個是犯嫌、還是哪個是共犯、哪一個是潛在的疑似被害人或者完全沒有關的第三人？所以你們是不是透過應用服務類型來判斷，他多次密集使用LINE，可能是犯嫌，還是他使用LINE之後有轉帳的紀錄，可能是被害人，或者他完全沒有使用LINE，他可能是無關的第三人，你們是要組成這樣一個可能的犯罪流程嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：如果個案上符合委員在PPT上面所寫的事實的話，的確是有這個可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們要調取流量紀錄的時候，其實你們就是要從外部去構築一個可能的犯罪過程，以便掌握這些犯罪的對象及可能的受害者或者是共犯，是不是這樣？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，現在我們的問題就來了，在我們院版通保法第十四條之一第二項及第五項提到，這些電信業者有必要保留這些網路的流量紀錄，供你們來調查，但是這裡面有一個監督，因為任何的流量紀錄，縱使不涉及到個人，它已經去識別化，我們的附帶決議還是提到「應有事後監督及控管機制」，必要的時候，法務部與司法院要針對調取流量紀錄相關通知、救濟及加強監督等程序訂定。你們有沒有在準備了？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，原則上，我們的草案及原來的條文裡面本來就採法官保留……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["黃次長謀信：事後的監督機制，我們在這個草案的第十四條之一第六項其實有訂一個授權規定，因為它是很細的規定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們有在準備了……"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：未來我們在進行協商的時候，你們可以告知，以袪除我們委員會審查的疑慮，是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：大概的方向是可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後，我們來談一個，那一天的爭議點就是事後的監督機制，根據院版通保法第十一條之一調取資料的發動主體，你們本來的設定是檢察官及司法警察官，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當時在討論要不要從法官保留一下子跳到完全沒有任何的保留，甚至有人主張折衷，用檢察官保留，但是到底這會不會影響到你們辦案的速度，還是影響到我們檢察官或法官的負荷，你們的回答是什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為第一個，它當然侵害人民的權益相對的較小；第二個，基於辦案實際上的需要；第三個，它其實是沒有內容的紀錄，所以這個部分我們認為為了平衡人權保障與事實的發現，賦予司法警察官直接調取的權限。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是我們還是認為，鑑於過去偵查機關當中，仍然有不肖分子假借犯罪偵查之名去調取使用者資料的時候產生了用於他用的情形，這種情況之下，我們認為，不管有沒有檢察官保留、法官保留，縱使沒有，未來這個調取的紀錄都必須能夠留存，以便有從外部來問責的機會，以免濫權。你們同不同意，縱使沒有任何的檢察官保留或法官保留，這樣的調取個資應該留下足跡？"],["黃次長謀信：這個當然，事實上，警政署……"],["鍾委員佳濱：「當然」，你們有沒有寫出來？"],["黃次長謀信：事實上，警政署在通信紀錄的部分就有非常嚴格的內控規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那能不能供外部來稽查？"],["黃次長謀信：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以，你承諾喔！好，我就做我的結論了，結論就是我們認為，調取網路流量紀錄不得涉入瀏覽內容，可以嗎？確定？"],["黃次長謀信：這絕對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，還有你們要設置外部的監督機制以完善隱私權保護。你剛剛也承諾了，未來縱使沒有檢察官保留或法官保留，在個人資料的調取部分要留下足跡有供外部監督的機制。你們會建立這個機制，是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：按照我們這個母法授權的規定，本來就要建立這樣的機制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那能夠供外部來稽查？"],["黃次長謀信：外部的稽查要看它稽查到什麼樣的程度，基本上，還是會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以我說你們要提出具體的主張，未來在相關三法的審理當中，包括今天的刑事訴訟法當中，我們要能落實這些機制要求，必要的時候，你要提出具體的說明，可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：可以，沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾召委。下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-32","speakers":["吳宗憲","沈伯洋","鍾佳濱","羅智強","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","洪孟楷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四\n十五條之一條文修正草案」案；(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案；\n(三)委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案；(四)委員吳宗憲等\n20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案；(五)委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部\n分條文草案」案；(六)委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之\n一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id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00:00:52,137\n次長好還有處長及副局長好那麼今天呢我們是要談科技偵查在刑訴的專章當中但是呢我要再次的來就教於我們三位跟次長在之前我們包括科偵法包括通保法\n\n3\n00:00:52,657 --> 00:01:21,331\n以及今天的刑訴法在於打擊詐欺的部分我們談到了很多科技辦案的手段那我今天在我們之前的委員會審查當中有幾個爭點我要進一步的來確定我們法務部可能還有未來我們司法院的態度首先關於使用者資料來我們看一下假設這是一個電信詐騙被人報案之後警察介入調查首先他會跟電信業者去取得犯嫌的使用者資料是不是這樣子開始偵辦是不是從這開始啟動\n\n4\n00:01:22,472 --> 00:01:38,587\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n5\n00:01:47,375 --> 00:02:15,160\n那我們那時候有問過為什麼需要這麼多首先為什麼需要設備識別資料呢是要確認使用者嗎請問次長還是副局長對這上次的建制機關的報告有說明這個這個通訊設備使用識別資料包括英米跟英系所以這個是A、A就委員9T的A是要確認使用者是誰犯嫌嘛鎖定犯嫌之後那請要接下來請教一下往下看那我們的網際網路的位置跟位置資料目的又是什麼\n\n6\n00:02:16,531 --> 00:02:43,812\n問何你們需要這個IP?這個當然就是如同委員在PPT上所講他確認這個IP是來自於哪個國家跟城市跟基地台。要了解這個犯嫌的所在位置是不是在國內是這樣的意思嗎?對。那這跟你們的犯罪偵查有什麼關聯?這當然這個被告他所在地時在哪一個城市或在國內外會涉及到我們偵查。發動偵辦很有關係。好謝謝那我們就認為他有必要再來那你們為什麼要調取網域名稱的原因是什麼?網域名稱他能顯現什麼?\n\n7\n00:02:45,293 --> 00:03:02,202\n各位報告網域的名稱部分不會顯示網址他就網域名稱所以委員在PPT上所寫斜線以下的部分當然就不會顯現所以說以我現在說的法務部調查局的網頁來看我們前面的網域只能看到facebook對不對.com就知道這一個\n\n8\n00:03:02,942 --> 00:03:14,147\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n\n9\n00:03:22,330 --> 00:03:25,593\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案案件中的刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件中的刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案\n\n10\n00:03:52,074 --> 00:04:20,761\n我請了刑事局的副局長來,也你們有同事來。我再舉例,有一種叫做OS的架構分類,它越往下的是越接近實體設備,越往上的是接近軟體跟應用端。那如果以這個例子來講,如果我知道它的應用服務類型,比如說它用APP,我知道它是使用比如說使用LINE,或是使用什麼樣的方式,我可以判斷使用者他只是單純的瀏覽網頁,還是他是傳送檔案,或是他是使用銀行APP來轉金流,是不是這個意思?\n\n11\n00:04:21,181 --> 00:04:36,236\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n12\n00:04:46,221 --> 00:04:57,097\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n\n13\n00:04:59,175 --> 00:05:18,511\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n14\n00:05:19,392 --> 00:05:41,702\n到底哪一個是犯嫌還是哪一個是共犯哪一個是潛在的疑似被害人或者說完全沒有關的第三人所以你們是不是透過應用服務類型來判斷他多次的密集使用LINE可能是犯嫌還是他使用LINE之後有轉帳的記錄可能是被害人或者說他完全沒有使用LINE他可能是無關的第三人你們是要組成這樣可能的一個犯罪的流程嗎\n\n15\n00:05:42,542 --> 00:05:52,348\n如果個案上符合委員在PPT上面所顯示的事實的話的確是有正確的所以你們要調取流量紀錄的時候其實你們就是要去去從外部去\n\n16\n00:05:53,103 --> 00:05:54,404\n四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案。\n\n17\n00:06:15,815 --> 00:06:33,256\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九\n\n18\n00:06:36,488 --> 00:06:59,523\n根本報告原則上我們草案跟原來的這個條文他本來就採法官保留啦是那事後的監督機制我們在我們的這個草案的十四條之一的第六項其實有定一個授權的規定那因為它是一個很細緻的規定所以你們有在準備了對未來我們在進行協商的時候你們可以告知以確除我們委員會審查的疑慮是嗎大概的方向是可以的好那最後我們還談一個\n\n19\n00:07:00,303 --> 00:07:11,320\n就是那一天的爭議點就是事後的監督機制根據院版的通保法第四條之一的第二項第五項呢你們這裡其實呢這裡要重複了\n\n20\n00:07:12,236 --> 00:07:35,385\n其實在這裡我們看到了我跟正好第十一條之一的調取資料的發動主體你們本來的設定是檢察官跟司法檢察官對不對當時在討論要不要一下子從法官保留跳到完全沒有任何的保留甚至有人主張折衷用檢察官保留但是到底這會影響到你們辦案的速度還是影響到我們檢察官或法官的負荷那你們的回答是什麼\n\n21\n00:07:36,740 --> 00:07:55,048\n公安委員報告因為第一個他當案者他的侵害人民的權益相對的較小第二個基於辦案實際上的需要第三個他其實沒有內容的一個記錄所以這部分我們認為為了平衡人權保障跟事實的發現我們認為司法檢察官賦予他直接調取的權限\n\n22\n00:07:56,128 --> 00:08:18,742\n但是我們還是認為鑒於過去仍然有在偵查機關當中有不肖份子他們利用假借犯罪偵查之名去調取使用者資料的時候產生了用他用那這種情況之下我們認為不管有沒有檢察官保留法官保留縱使沒有未來的這個調取的紀錄必須能夠留存以便從外部來問責對不起這個問責打錯了問責的機會\n\n23\n00:08:21,664 --> 00:08:32,799\n三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n\n24\n00:08:38,306 --> 00:09:00,715\n那能不能供外部來稽查可以可以啊可以你承諾齁好那這就是我的結論了結論就是說我們認為呢調取網路流量紀錄不得涉入瀏覽內容可以嗎確定這絕對好那你們要設置外部的監督機制以完善隱身的保護你剛剛也承諾了未來包括縱使沒有檢察官保留或法官保留在個人資料的調取部分要留下足跡\n\n25\n00:09:01,451 --> 00:09:24,686\n公外部監督機制。」你會建立這個機制,是嗎?不是,本來按照我們這個授權,這個魔法授權的規定本來就要建立這樣的機制。那能夠公外部來稽查?外部的稽查要看它稽查到什麼樣的程度。是,所以我說你們要提出具體的主張。未來我們在相關的三法的審理當中,包括今天的刑事訴訟法的當中,我們要能落實這些機制要求。必要的時候你要提出來具體的說明,可以嗎?OK,沒問題。好,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n17720\t31596\t主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府金管事長、官員會長、工作夥伴、記者媒體女士先生、有請法務部黃市長、NCC的蔡處長以及警政署的林副局長。\n36451\t52137\t次長好還有處長及副局長好那麼今天呢我們是要談科技偵查在刑訴的專章當中但是呢我要再次的來就教於我們三位跟次長在之前我們包括科偵法包括通保法\n52657\t81331\t以及今天的刑訴法在於打擊詐欺的部分我們談到了很多科技辦案的手段那我今天在我們之前的委員會審查當中有幾個爭點我要進一步的來確定我們法務部可能還有未來我們司法院的態度首先關於使用者資料來我們看一下假設這是一個電信詐騙被人報案之後警察介入調查首先他會跟電信業者去取得犯嫌的使用者資料是不是這樣子開始偵辦是不是從這開始啟動\n82472\t98587\t三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n107375\t135160\t那我們那時候有問過為什麼需要這麼多首先為什麼需要設備識別資料呢是要確認使用者嗎請問次長還是副局長對這上次的建制機關的報告有說明這個這個通訊設備使用識別資料包括英米跟英系所以這個是A、A就委員9T的A是要確認使用者是誰犯嫌嘛鎖定犯嫌之後那請要接下來請教一下往下看那我們的網際網路的位置跟位置資料目的又是什麼\n136531\t163812\t問何你們需要這個IP?這個當然就是如同委員在PPT上所講他確認這個IP是來自於哪個國家跟城市跟基地台。要了解這個犯嫌的所在位置是不是在國內是這樣的意思嗎?對。那這跟你們的犯罪偵查有什麼關聯?這當然這個被告他所在地時在哪一個城市或在國內外會涉及到我們偵查。發動偵辦很有關係。好謝謝那我們就認為他有必要再來那你們為什麼要調取網域名稱的原因是什麼?網域名稱他能顯現什麼?\n165293\t182202\t各位報告網域的名稱部分不會顯示網址他就網域名稱所以委員在PPT上所寫斜線以下的部分當然就不會顯現所以說以我現在說的法務部調查局的網頁來看我們前面的網域只能看到facebook對不對.com就知道這一個\n182942\t194147\t三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n202330\t205593\t三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案 案件中的刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案 案件中的刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案\n232074\t260761\t我請了刑事局的副局長來,也你們有同事來。我再舉例,有一種叫做OS的架構分類,它越往下的是越接近實體設備,越往上的是接近軟體跟應用端。那如果以這個例子來講,如果我知道它的應用服務類型,比如說它用APP,我知道它是使用比如說使用LINE,或是使用什麼樣的方式,我可以判斷使用者他只是單純的瀏覽網頁,還是他是傳送檔案,或是他是使用銀行APP來轉金流,是不是這個意思?\n261181\t276236\t三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n286221\t297097\t三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n299175\t318511\t三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n319392\t341702\t到底哪一個是犯嫌還是哪一個是共犯哪一個是潛在的疑似被害人或者說完全沒有關的第三人所以你們是不是透過應用服務類型來判斷他多次的密集使用LINE可能是犯嫌還是他使用LINE之後有轉帳的記錄可能是被害人或者說他完全沒有使用LINE他可能是無關的第三人你們是要組成這樣可能的一個犯罪的流程嗎\n342542\t352348\t如果個案上符合委員在PPT上面所顯示的事實的話的確是有正確的所以你們要調取流量紀錄的時候其實你們就是要去去從外部去\n353103\t354404\t四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案 。\n375815\t393256\t三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九\n396488\t419523\t根本報告原則上我們草案跟原來的這個條文他本來就採法官保留啦是那事後的監督機制我們在我們的這個草案的十四條之一的第六項其實有定一個授權的規定那因為它是一個很細緻的規定所以你們有在準備了對未來我們在進行協商的時候你們可以告知以確除我們委員會審查的疑慮是嗎大概的方向是可以的好那最後我們還談一個\n420303\t431320\t就是那一天的爭議點就是事後的監督機制根據院版的通保法第四條之一的第二項第五項呢你們這裡其實呢這裡要重複了\n432236\t455385\t其實在這裡我們看到了我跟正好第十一條之一的調取資料的發動主體你們本來的設定是檢察官跟司法檢察官對不對當時在討論要不要一下子從法官保留跳到完全沒有任何的保留甚至有人主張折衷用檢察官保留但是到底這會影響到你們辦案的速度還是影響到我們檢察官或法官的負荷那你們的回答是什麼\n456740\t475048\t公安委員報告因為第一個他當案者他的侵害人民的權益相對的較小第二個基於辦案實際上的需要第三個他其實沒有內容的一個記錄所以這部分我們認為為了平衡人權保障跟事實的發現我們認為司法檢察官賦予他直接調取的權限\n476128\t498742\t但是我們還是認為鑒於過去仍然有在偵查機關當中有不肖份子他們利用假借犯罪偵查之名去調取使用者資料的時候產生了用他用那這種情況之下我們認為不管有沒有檢察官保留法官保留縱使沒有未來的這個調取的紀錄必須能夠留存以便從外部來問責對不起這個問責打錯了問責的機會\n501664\t512799\t三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n518306\t540715\t那能不能供外部來稽查可以可以啊可以你承諾齁好那這就是我的結論了結論就是說我們認為呢調取網路流量紀錄不得涉入瀏覽內容可以嗎確定這絕對好那你們要設置外部的監督機制以完善隱身的保護你剛剛也承諾了未來包括縱使沒有檢察官保留或法官保留在個人資料的調取部分要留下足跡\n541451\t564686\t公外部監督機制。」你會建立這個機制,是嗎?不是,本來按照我們這個授權,這個魔法授權的規定本來就要建立這樣的機制。那能夠公外部來稽查?外部的稽查要看它稽查到什麼樣的程度。是,所以我說你們要提出具體的主張。未來我們在相關的三法的審理當中,包括今天的刑事訴訟法的當中,我們要能落實這些機制要求。必要的時候你要提出來具體的說明,可以嗎?OK,沒問題。好,謝謝。\n","txt":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府金管事長、官員會長、工作夥伴、記者媒體女士先生、有請法務部黃市長、NCC的蔡處長以及警政署的林副局長。\n次長好還有處長及副局長好那麼今天呢我們是要談科技偵查在刑訴的專章當中但是呢我要再次的來就教於我們三位跟次長在之前我們包括科偵法包括通保法\n以及今天的刑訴法在於打擊詐欺的部分我們談到了很多科技辦案的手段那我今天在我們之前的委員會審查當中有幾個爭點我要進一步的來確定我們法務部可能還有未來我們司法院的態度首先關於使用者資料來我們看一下假設這是一個電信詐騙被人報案之後警察介入調查首先他會跟電信業者去取得犯嫌的使用者資料是不是這樣子開始偵辦是不是從這開始啟動\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n那我們那時候有問過為什麼需要這麼多首先為什麼需要設備識別資料呢是要確認使用者嗎請問次長還是副局長對這上次的建制機關的報告有說明這個這個通訊設備使用識別資料包括英米跟英系所以這個是A、A就委員9T的A是要確認使用者是誰犯嫌嘛鎖定犯嫌之後那請要接下來請教一下往下看那我們的網際網路的位置跟位置資料目的又是什麼\n問何你們需要這個IP?這個當然就是如同委員在PPT上所講他確認這個IP是來自於哪個國家跟城市跟基地台。要了解這個犯嫌的所在位置是不是在國內是這樣的意思嗎?對。那這跟你們的犯罪偵查有什麼關聯?這當然這個被告他所在地時在哪一個城市或在國內外會涉及到我們偵查。發動偵辦很有關係。好謝謝那我們就認為他有必要再來那你們為什麼要調取網域名稱的原因是什麼?網域名稱他能顯現什麼?\n各位報告網域的名稱部分不會顯示網址他就網域名稱所以委員在PPT上所寫斜線以下的部分當然就不會顯現所以說以我現在說的法務部調查局的網頁來看我們前面的網域只能看到facebook對不對.com就知道這一個\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案 案件中的刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案 案件中的刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案\n我請了刑事局的副局長來,也你們有同事來。我再舉例,有一種叫做OS的架構分類,它越往下的是越接近實體設備,越往上的是接近軟體跟應用端。那如果以這個例子來講,如果我知道它的應用服務類型,比如說它用APP,我知道它是使用比如說使用LINE,或是使用什麼樣的方式,我可以判斷使用者他只是單純的瀏覽網頁,還是他是傳送檔案,或是他是使用銀行APP來轉金流,是不是這個意思?\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n到底哪一個是犯嫌還是哪一個是共犯哪一個是潛在的疑似被害人或者說完全沒有關的第三人所以你們是不是透過應用服務類型來判斷他多次的密集使用LINE可能是犯嫌還是他使用LINE之後有轉帳的記錄可能是被害人或者說他完全沒有使用LINE他可能是無關的第三人你們是要組成這樣可能的一個犯罪的流程嗎\n如果個案上符合委員在PPT上面所顯示的事實的話的確是有正確的所以你們要調取流量紀錄的時候其實你們就是要去去從外部去\n四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案 。\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九\n根本報告原則上我們草案跟原來的這個條文他本來就採法官保留啦是那事後的監督機制我們在我們的這個草案的十四條之一的第六項其實有定一個授權的規定那因為它是一個很細緻的規定所以你們有在準備了對未來我們在進行協商的時候你們可以告知以確除我們委員會審查的疑慮是嗎大概的方向是可以的好那最後我們還談一個\n就是那一天的爭議點就是事後的監督機制根據院版的通保法第四條之一的第二項第五項呢你們這裡其實呢這裡要重複了\n其實在這裡我們看到了我跟正好第十一條之一的調取資料的發動主體你們本來的設定是檢察官跟司法檢察官對不對當時在討論要不要一下子從法官保留跳到完全沒有任何的保留甚至有人主張折衷用檢察官保留但是到底這會影響到你們辦案的速度還是影響到我們檢察官或法官的負荷那你們的回答是什麼\n公安委員報告因為第一個他當案者他的侵害人民的權益相對的較小第二個基於辦案實際上的需要第三個他其實沒有內容的一個記錄所以這部分我們認為為了平衡人權保障跟事實的發現我們認為司法檢察官賦予他直接調取的權限\n但是我們還是認為鑒於過去仍然有在偵查機關當中有不肖份子他們利用假借犯罪偵查之名去調取使用者資料的時候產生了用他用那這種情況之下我們認為不管有沒有檢察官保留法官保留縱使沒有未來的這個調取的紀錄必須能夠留存以便從外部來問責對不起這個問責打錯了問責的機會\n三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n那能不能供外部來稽查可以可以啊可以你承諾齁好那這就是我的結論了結論就是說我們認為呢調取網路流量紀錄不得涉入瀏覽內容可以嗎確定這絕對好那你們要設置外部的監督機制以完善隱身的保護你剛剛也承諾了未來包括縱使沒有檢察官保留或法官保留在個人資料的調取部分要留下足跡\n公外部監督機制。」你會建立這個機制,是嗎?不是,本來按照我們這個授權,這個魔法授權的規定本來就要建立這樣的機制。那能夠公外部來稽查?外部的稽查要看它稽查到什麼樣的程度。是,所以我說你們要提出具體的主張。未來我們在相關的三法的審理當中,包括今天的刑事訴訟法的當中,我們要能落實這些機制要求。必要的時候你要提出來具體的說明,可以嗎?OK,沒問題。好,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:17.720 --> 00:31.596\n主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府金管事長、官員會長、工作夥伴、記者媒體女士先生、有請法務部黃市長、NCC的蔡處長以及警政署的林副局長。\n\n00:36.451 --> 00:52.137\n次長好還有處長及副局長好那麼今天呢我們是要談科技偵查在刑訴的專章當中但是呢我要再次的來就教於我們三位跟次長在之前我們包括科偵法包括通保法\n\n00:52.657 --> 01:21.331\n以及今天的刑訴法在於打擊詐欺的部分我們談到了很多科技辦案的手段那我今天在我們之前的委員會審查當中有幾個爭點我要進一步的來確定我們法務部可能還有未來我們司法院的態度首先關於使用者資料來我們看一下假設這是一個電信詐騙被人報案之後警察介入調查首先他會跟電信業者去取得犯嫌的使用者資料是不是這樣子開始偵辦是不是從這開始啟動\n\n01:22.472 --> 01:38.587\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n01:47.375 --> 02:15.160\n那我們那時候有問過為什麼需要這麼多首先為什麼需要設備識別資料呢是要確認使用者嗎請問次長還是副局長對這上次的建制機關的報告有說明這個這個通訊設備使用識別資料包括英米跟英系所以這個是A、A就委員9T的A是要確認使用者是誰犯嫌嘛鎖定犯嫌之後那請要接下來請教一下往下看那我們的網際網路的位置跟位置資料目的又是什麼\n\n02:16.531 --> 02:43.812\n問何你們需要這個IP?這個當然就是如同委員在PPT上所講他確認這個IP是來自於哪個國家跟城市跟基地台。要了解這個犯嫌的所在位置是不是在國內是這樣的意思嗎?對。那這跟你們的犯罪偵查有什麼關聯?這當然這個被告他所在地時在哪一個城市或在國內外會涉及到我們偵查。發動偵辦很有關係。好謝謝那我們就認為他有必要再來那你們為什麼要調取網域名稱的原因是什麼?網域名稱他能顯現什麼?\n\n02:45.293 --> 03:02.202\n各位報告網域的名稱部分不會顯示網址他就網域名稱所以委員在PPT上所寫斜線以下的部分當然就不會顯現所以說以我現在說的法務部調查局的網頁來看我們前面的網域只能看到facebook對不對.com就知道這一個\n\n03:02.942 --> 03:14.147\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n\n03:22.330 --> 03:25.593\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案案件中的刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件中的刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案\n\n03:52.074 --> 04:20.761\n我請了刑事局的副局長來,也你們有同事來。我再舉例,有一種叫做OS的架構分類,它越往下的是越接近實體設備,越往上的是接近軟體跟應用端。那如果以這個例子來講,如果我知道它的應用服務類型,比如說它用APP,我知道它是使用比如說使用LINE,或是使用什麼樣的方式,我可以判斷使用者他只是單純的瀏覽網頁,還是他是傳送檔案,或是他是使用銀行APP來轉金流,是不是這個意思?\n\n04:21.181 --> 04:36.236\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n04:46.221 --> 04:57.097\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n\n04:59.175 --> 05:18.511\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n05:19.392 --> 05:41.702\n到底哪一個是犯嫌還是哪一個是共犯哪一個是潛在的疑似被害人或者說完全沒有關的第三人所以你們是不是透過應用服務類型來判斷他多次的密集使用LINE可能是犯嫌還是他使用LINE之後有轉帳的記錄可能是被害人或者說他完全沒有使用LINE他可能是無關的第三人你們是要組成這樣可能的一個犯罪的流程嗎\n\n05:42.542 --> 05:52.348\n如果個案上符合委員在PPT上面所顯示的事實的話的確是有正確的所以你們要調取流量紀錄的時候其實你們就是要去去從外部去\n\n05:53.103 --> 05:54.404\n四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案。\n\n06:15.815 --> 06:33.256\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九\n\n06:36.488 --> 06:59.523\n根本報告原則上我們草案跟原來的這個條文他本來就採法官保留啦是那事後的監督機制我們在我們的這個草案的十四條之一的第六項其實有定一個授權的規定那因為它是一個很細緻的規定所以你們有在準備了對未來我們在進行協商的時候你們可以告知以確除我們委員會審查的疑慮是嗎大概的方向是可以的好那最後我們還談一個\n\n07:00.303 --> 07:11.320\n就是那一天的爭議點就是事後的監督機制根據院版的通保法第四條之一的第二項第五項呢你們這裡其實呢這裡要重複了\n\n07:12.236 --> 07:35.385\n其實在這裡我們看到了我跟正好第十一條之一的調取資料的發動主體你們本來的設定是檢察官跟司法檢察官對不對當時在討論要不要一下子從法官保留跳到完全沒有任何的保留甚至有人主張折衷用檢察官保留但是到底這會影響到你們辦案的速度還是影響到我們檢察官或法官的負荷那你們的回答是什麼\n\n07:36.740 --> 07:55.048\n公安委員報告因為第一個他當案者他的侵害人民的權益相對的較小第二個基於辦案實際上的需要第三個他其實沒有內容的一個記錄所以這部分我們認為為了平衡人權保障跟事實的發現我們認為司法檢察官賦予他直接調取的權限\n\n07:56.128 --> 08:18.742\n但是我們還是認為鑒於過去仍然有在偵查機關當中有不肖份子他們利用假借犯罪偵查之名去調取使用者資料的時候產生了用他用那這種情況之下我們認為不管有沒有檢察官保留法官保留縱使沒有未來的這個調取的紀錄必須能夠留存以便從外部來問責對不起這個問責打錯了問責的機會\n\n08:21.664 --> 08:32.799\n三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n\n08:38.306 --> 09:00.715\n那能不能供外部來稽查可以可以啊可以你承諾齁好那這就是我的結論了結論就是說我們認為呢調取網路流量紀錄不得涉入瀏覽內容可以嗎確定這絕對好那你們要設置外部的監督機制以完善隱身的保護你剛剛也承諾了未來包括縱使沒有檢察官保留或法官保留在個人資料的調取部分要留下足跡\n\n09:01.451 --> 09:24.686\n公外部監督機制。」你會建立這個機制,是嗎?不是,本來按照我們這個授權,這個魔法授權的規定本來就要建立這樣的機制。那能夠公外部來稽查?外部的稽查要看它稽查到什麼樣的程度。是,所以我說你們要提出具體的主張。未來我們在相關的三法的審理當中,包括今天的刑事訴訟法的當中,我們要能落實這些機制要求。必要的時候你要提出來具體的說明,可以嗎?OK,沒問題。好,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":17.72,"end":31.596,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府金管事長、官員會長、工作夥伴、記者媒體女士先生、有請法務部黃市長、NCC的蔡處長以及警政署的林副局長。"},{"start":36.451,"end":52.137,"text":"次長好還有處長及副局長好那麼今天呢我們是要談科技偵查在刑訴的專章當中但是呢我要再次的來就教於我們三位跟次長在之前我們包括科偵法包括通保法"},{"start":52.657,"end":81.331,"text":"以及今天的刑訴法在於打擊詐欺的部分我們談到了很多科技辦案的手段那我今天在我們之前的委員會審查當中有幾個爭點我要進一步的來確定我們法務部可能還有未來我們司法院的態度首先關於使用者資料來我們看一下假設這是一個電信詐騙被人報案之後警察介入調查首先他會跟電信業者去取得犯嫌的使用者資料是不是這樣子開始偵辦是不是從這開始啟動"},{"start":82.472,"end":98.587,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":107.375,"end":135.16,"text":"那我們那時候有問過為什麼需要這麼多首先為什麼需要設備識別資料呢是要確認使用者嗎請問次長還是副局長對這上次的建制機關的報告有說明這個這個通訊設備使用識別資料包括英米跟英系所以這個是A、A就委員9T的A是要確認使用者是誰犯嫌嘛鎖定犯嫌之後那請要接下來請教一下往下看那我們的網際網路的位置跟位置資料目的又是什麼"},{"start":136.531,"end":163.812,"text":"問何你們需要這個IP?這個當然就是如同委員在PPT上所講他確認這個IP是來自於哪個國家跟城市跟基地台。要了解這個犯嫌的所在位置是不是在國內是這樣的意思嗎?對。那這跟你們的犯罪偵查有什麼關聯?這當然這個被告他所在地時在哪一個城市或在國內外會涉及到我們偵查。發動偵辦很有關係。好謝謝那我們就認為他有必要再來那你們為什麼要調取網域名稱的原因是什麼?網域名稱他能顯現什麼?"},{"start":165.293,"end":182.202,"text":"各位報告網域的名稱部分不會顯示網址他就網域名稱所以委員在PPT上所寫斜線以下的部分當然就不會顯現所以說以我現在說的法務部調查局的網頁來看我們前面的網域只能看到facebook對不對.com就知道這一個"},{"start":182.942,"end":194.147,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":202.33,"end":205.593,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案 案件中的刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案 案件中的刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":232.074,"end":260.761,"text":"我請了刑事局的副局長來,也你們有同事來。我再舉例,有一種叫做OS的架構分類,它越往下的是越接近實體設備,越往上的是接近軟體跟應用端。那如果以這個例子來講,如果我知道它的應用服務類型,比如說它用APP,我知道它是使用比如說使用LINE,或是使用什麼樣的方式,我可以判斷使用者他只是單純的瀏覽網頁,還是他是傳送檔案,或是他是使用銀行APP來轉金流,是不是這個意思?"},{"start":261.181,"end":276.236,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":286.221,"end":297.097,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":299.175,"end":318.511,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":319.392,"end":341.702,"text":"到底哪一個是犯嫌還是哪一個是共犯哪一個是潛在的疑似被害人或者說完全沒有關的第三人所以你們是不是透過應用服務類型來判斷他多次的密集使用LINE可能是犯嫌還是他使用LINE之後有轉帳的記錄可能是被害人或者說他完全沒有使用LINE他可能是無關的第三人你們是要組成這樣可能的一個犯罪的流程嗎"},{"start":342.542,"end":352.348,"text":"如果個案上符合委員在PPT上面所顯示的事實的話的確是有正確的所以你們要調取流量紀錄的時候其實你們就是要去去從外部去"},{"start":353.103,"end":354.404,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":375.815,"end":393.256,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九"},{"start":396.488,"end":419.523,"text":"根本報告原則上我們草案跟原來的這個條文他本來就採法官保留啦是那事後的監督機制我們在我們的這個草案的十四條之一的第六項其實有定一個授權的規定那因為它是一個很細緻的規定所以你們有在準備了對未來我們在進行協商的時候你們可以告知以確除我們委員會審查的疑慮是嗎大概的方向是可以的好那最後我們還談一個"},{"start":420.303,"end":431.32,"text":"就是那一天的爭議點就是事後的監督機制根據院版的通保法第四條之一的第二項第五項呢你們這裡其實呢這裡要重複了"},{"start":432.236,"end":455.385,"text":"其實在這裡我們看到了我跟正好第十一條之一的調取資料的發動主體你們本來的設定是檢察官跟司法檢察官對不對當時在討論要不要一下子從法官保留跳到完全沒有任何的保留甚至有人主張折衷用檢察官保留但是到底這會影響到你們辦案的速度還是影響到我們檢察官或法官的負荷那你們的回答是什麼"},{"start":456.74,"end":475.048,"text":"公安委員報告因為第一個他當案者他的侵害人民的權益相對的較小第二個基於辦案實際上的需要第三個他其實沒有內容的一個記錄所以這部分我們認為為了平衡人權保障跟事實的發現我們認為司法檢察官賦予他直接調取的權限"},{"start":476.128,"end":498.742,"text":"但是我們還是認為鑒於過去仍然有在偵查機關當中有不肖份子他們利用假借犯罪偵查之名去調取使用者資料的時候產生了用他用那這種情況之下我們認為不管有沒有檢察官保留法官保留縱使沒有未來的這個調取的紀錄必須能夠留存以便從外部來問責對不起這個問責打錯了問責的機會"},{"start":501.664,"end":512.799,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":518.306,"end":540.715,"text":"那能不能供外部來稽查可以可以啊可以你承諾齁好那這就是我的結論了結論就是說我們認為呢調取網路流量紀錄不得涉入瀏覽內容可以嗎確定這絕對好那你們要設置外部的監督機制以完善隱身的保護你剛剛也承諾了未來包括縱使沒有檢察官保留或法官保留在個人資料的調取部分要留下足跡"},{"start":541.451,"end":564.686,"text":"公外部監督機制。」你會建立這個機制,是嗎?不是,本來按照我們這個授權,這個魔法授權的規定本來就要建立這樣的機制。那能夠公外部來稽查?外部的稽查要看它稽查到什麼樣的程度。是,所以我說你們要提出具體的主張。未來我們在相關的三法的審理當中,包括今天的刑事訴訟法的當中,我們要能落實這些機制要求。必要的時候你要提出來具體的說明,可以嗎?OK,沒問題。好,謝謝。"}]}}}}