{"id":153804,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153804","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81948de3988597a9c2d59a48fe1a1d57c38139eec4d40364b4fe90c469a3fa3b2195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"09:20:56 - 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00:00:57,193\n那這樣子的情報當初有沒有掌握到說這些人的背景是什麼他們的動機是什麼他們想要達成什麼樣的目的對,大概這兩年我想昨天海巡署也對外有說明了從去年到現在這一類中方的偷渡案件大概有十幾件那這些案件當中也都有針對當事人來進行一些偵訊的一個動作然後偵訊完之後再移送檢方來進行調查看有沒有違反我們的入出境管理法以及相關的國安法規\n\n3\n00:00:59,134 --> 00:01:26,943\n針對這個問題我不是要問有沒有違反什麼樣的法規我現在是以您是國安局局長的這個身份我想知道這些人的身份背景是什麼我想從北韓然後投誠到南韓的時候他們的這些情報部門還是一些統一部的部門等等全部都要去查核他們的動機不是只是單一性的來去採用他們是要投奔自由這樣的話語那我想請教在金門的時候他們的背景有做查核嗎\n\n4\n00:01:28,143 --> 00:01:49,369\n他們當然在接受證訊的過程當中都會有一套的說辭說明自己的身份還有到我們台灣來的主要的動機是什麼那就我們管局來講我們當然會比對他們的相關的一個說辭那歸類出大概有些比較要注意的樣態跟委員做個說明第二部分是他們大概都會提到投奔自由這樣的一個想法第一個共通性\n\n5\n00:01:50,129 --> 00:02:03,486\n那第二個也大概都會去勾勒他怎麼樣來透過這些水上的載具到我們的外離島或是到我們的本島因為去年到現在有兩件事到我們本島來一個是在通宵外海一個是前兩天淡水的碼頭\n\n6\n00:02:05,388 --> 00:02:31,011\n所以我們會去大概勾勒一下他們的相關的數位足跡因為這些很多都有攜帶他們的手機那我們會來了解一下他們的手機的內容還有相關的數位足跡跟他所公訴的證詞一不一樣那可能手機裡面也會有相關的照片那也可以再來核對一下跟他的陳述內容有沒有一些違反的事實整體來講會發現到他們的一些相關的資訊很多都跟他們的陳述的內容\n\n7\n00:02:31,391 --> 00:02:33,854\n所以這大概是我們從過去的樣態所規劃出來一些比較值得可疑的地方\n\n8\n00:02:53,155 --> 00:03:16,224\n謝謝局長因為我沒有直接問昨天的事情因為我認為大概只有24到48小時大概也沒有什麼樣最新的內容可能還要一段時間才可以梳理出來但是我要強調從金門的案件我們大概要去查那當他們決定做這些事情的時候包含他們的說法全面都一致喔三年前跟三年後這些人的講法都是一致的那剛才你剛剛說提到他的數位足跡\n\n9\n00:03:16,784 --> 00:03:44,050\n通常如果是你說特務也好情報人員要特別要做這件事情的時候誰會把手機放在身上所以他們一定是攜帶他們想要被監測的數位足跡的這些東西攜帶在身上讓我們去反查來去做查核但是台灣是民主自由的社會在法治的社會上面我們有什麼證據就只能辦到哪裡我們不能說你就是間諜所以說這是利用我們的民主的漏洞利用我們制度的漏洞來要去探路那我覺得這些都是我們必須要先前防範的特別是\n\n10\n00:03:44,850 --> 00:04:04,913\n如果這些人有軍方的背景或者是安全的背景不知道有沒有過去有過這樣的案例這個是比較特別最近淡水這個案例是大概歷來第一次他自己承認他具有軍方的背景那也引起我們的關注所以也正在查核了解一下他在對岸的真實的身份以及過去的活動的動態\n\n11\n00:04:06,161 --> 00:04:21,701\n像這樣子的樣態已經不是第一次了從離島直接進入到本島那從到台灣到離我們的首都數位區已經是非常接近的地方那有沒有什麼相關的情資研判怎麼樣要提供給其他的部會嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:22,862 --> 00:04:39,279\n對,因為案子本身已經由檢方立案在偵辦了那我們都尊重檢方調查的過程跟結果那假如說檢方有需要相關一些國安的單位的評估的意見的話我們很樂意來提供給檢方我希望可以主動提供你們評估的案件因為\n\n13\n00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:53,615\n政府的部門是要跨部會整合的前幾天上禮拜五我們去參加海委會的這個海事相關的這個研討會的時候我們也接到一些媒體的採訪說我們是國防外交委員會這是內政的為什麼我們要一起去聽\n\n14\n00:04:55,197 --> 00:05:20,046\n其實很簡單嘛這今天的這個案例齁前幾天的案例在淡水的案例就很清楚的告訴我們說這個東西不是只有一個部會如果一個部會守不住的話那其他部會至少還要去協調來協助嘛那當每一個部會不要本位主義的時候不管是在12海裡還是在6海裡的時候就能夠予以來去截獲不會等到到淡水河口才會有動作所以\n\n15\n00:05:20,686 --> 00:05:47,470\n我還是要呼籲各個部門不要說這個是屬於A單位、這是屬於B單位、屬於內政部、屬於國防部那一有問題趕快就是要有一個彙整的一個機制管道才可以快速反應是,各位委員報告說明一下第一部分當然是在法律上的處理那因為檢方已經在偵辦這部分我們尊重那第二部分是在行政系統的一個盤點相關的問題以及有沒有哪些的缺失未來要精進的\n\n16\n00:05:48,070 --> 00:06:15,049\n所以國安會有召開跨部會會議來進行協調那也來了解跟釐清整個過程當中到底有哪些邊防國境安全的漏洞那也要求各單位要來積極的策辦跟精進好謝謝因為我還是在強調這是最基礎最簡單最低科技但最有效的在低科技最簡單最基礎的東西我們沒有做好的話不用講高科技不用講什麼AI防範你最簡單的事情先把它處理完那才有辦法去做應對那當然啦\n\n17\n00:06:17,190 --> 00:06:46,038\n我們今天看到就是相關的包含海委會有說這個蔡委首是說是有可能是懷疑是因為歸港漁船所以就是大意了沒有去做處置那除了漁船之外我們現在很擔心包含空中的這樣子的能量到時候如果是以像是客機的方式等等就層出不窮我覺得相關的資訊是不是可以請這個國安單位來彙整一個給我們各個不同的部門有一個guideline一個指引我必須強調就是說\n\n18\n00:06:47,518 --> 00:07:11,047\n我們不能夠依賴個人而是要依賴制度那當然如果一個個人他們在重要的時刻做出很英勇的決定那當然是很好的但是如果只是依照這樣子的話那隨時都是要碰運氣如果沒有制度上面的查核比方說像這一次就有應該請國安局也把過去其他國家的一些做法來提供給這個相關的部門\n\n19\n00:07:11,527 --> 00:07:11,767\n最後局長我來想講一下\n\n20\n00:07:37,408 --> 00:07:57,682\n這個機密的這個落實的分級我必須要強調說最近國防部長顧部長他不斷的提到說機密層級那涉及機密層級的狀況去做的背景查核是依照他的職務跟他接觸的敏感的資料不是以他的職位來去做確定那我是希望說這不是只能只於國防部\n\n21\n00:07:58,402 --> 00:08:12,983\n那我是希望說未來包含其他的部門包括國安局或者其他的情報機構之外外交部甚至是經貿相關的重要的經貿談判的辦事處都必須要有相關的機制這部分是不是可以請您研擬一下二號\n\n22\n00:08:13,564 --> 00:08:19,670\n市長為什麼講這件事情是因為過去在國安會服務的時候我看到什麼東西都是密或者是機密或者是越來越這跟美國的狀況其實是很類似的他們把密等\n\n23\n00:08:34,804 --> 00:08:35,464\n陳冠廷陳冠廷\n\n24\n00:09:04,094 --> 00:09:18,488\n關於我們的機密程度還有我們的可包含國會議員嘛國會議員就是人民所選出來的那當然就是另外一回事但是再包含幕僚長我們的國會助理包含各個你們接觸的這些單位理論上是要有相關的安全查核的等級\n\n25\n00:09:19,008 --> 00:09:41,343\n那當然不是我們是不是在鼓吹說每一個人都要得到這樣的安全合格其實在跟國會議員的這些幕僚在討論的時候很多他們的幕僚早是不希望有這樣的安全合格對他們來講是心理壓力啊他們必須要接觸到這些密等他們必須要確保說他們不會因此而洩密對他們來講也是很大的壓力不是每一個人都想要但是這是必須要去操作必須要去務實的去做這個做法的因為\n\n26\n00:09:42,123 --> 00:10:05,659\n我們看到說你說泄密也好我實在很不希望說把每一個人都當成是泄密的對象但是如果你有一個完成的這個安全的合格包含國防的承包商等等都應該有這樣的做法不然就會讓明明不應該要負泄密責任的人負責真正應該要負泄密責任的人你卻追究不到因為你的密等你的揭密的這個層級沒有去做務實的規劃\n\n27\n00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:28,615\n這個希望局長能夠參考各國的案例做一個完整的規劃不要關門自己造車重新發明如此對這非常重要謝謝委員提醒這個真的很重要因為我還是在強調因為密等每次密到最後全部都是機密那全部都是機密的時候無所不密那就是每一個都要保護每一個保護就是沒有再把資源放在對的上面對不對對瞭解委員的關鍵也同意謝謝\n\n28\n00:10:34,756 --> 00:10:37,712\n好謝謝接下來請陳永康委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4568\t26314\t好 謝謝主席 陳委員長局長 不知道有沒有印象在兩三年前COVID-19的時候在2020年的時候那金門有幾個來自中國的男子那用無動力的橡皮艇然後說到金門說要投奔自由 有沒有聽過這樣的話有還記得嘛 對不對那也不只一件喔 我記得是兩三件嘛對 這 對\n28234\t57193\t那這樣子的情報當初有沒有掌握到說這些人的背景是什麼他們的動機是什麼他們想要達成什麼樣的目的對,大概這兩年我想昨天海巡署也對外有說明了從去年到現在這一類中方的偷渡案件大概有十幾件那這些案件當中也都有針對當事人來進行一些偵訊的一個動作然後偵訊完之後再移送檢方來進行調查看有沒有違反我們的入出境管理法以及相關的國安法規\n59134\t86943\t針對這個問題我不是要問有沒有違反什麼樣的法規我現在是以您是國安局局長的這個身份我想知道這些人的身份背景是什麼我想從北韓然後投誠到南韓的時候他們的這些情報部門還是一些統一部的部門等等全部都要去查核他們的動機不是只是單一性的來去採用他們是要投奔自由這樣的話語那我想請教在金門的時候他們的背景有做查核嗎\n88143\t109369\t他們當然在接受證訊的過程當中都會有一套的說辭說明自己的身份還有到我們台灣來的主要的動機是什麼那就我們管局來講我們當然會比對他們的相關的一個說辭那歸類出大概有些比較要注意的樣態跟委員做個說明第二部分是他們大概都會提到投奔自由這樣的一個想法第一個共通性\n110129\t123486\t那第二個也大概都會去勾勒他怎麼樣來透過這些水上的載具到我們的外離島或是到我們的本島因為去年到現在有兩件事到我們本島來一個是在通宵外海一個是前兩天淡水的碼頭\n125388\t151011\t所以我們會去大概勾勒一下他們的相關的數位足跡因為這些很多都有攜帶他們的手機那我們會來了解一下他們的手機的內容還有相關的數位足跡跟他所公訴的證詞一不一樣那可能手機裡面也會有相關的照片那也可以再來核對一下跟他的陳述內容有沒有一些違反的事實整體來講會發現到他們的一些相關的資訊很多都跟他們的陳述的內容\n151391\t153854\t所以這大概是我們從過去的樣態所規劃出來一些比較值得可疑的地方\n173155\t196224\t謝謝局長因為我沒有直接問昨天的事情因為我認為大概只有24到48小時大概也沒有什麼樣最新的內容可能還要一段時間才可以梳理出來但是我要強調從金門的案件我們大概要去查那當他們決定做這些事情的時候包含他們的說法全面都一致喔三年前跟三年後這些人的講法都是一致的那剛才你剛剛說提到他的數位足跡\n196784\t224050\t通常如果是你說特務也好情報人員要特別要做這件事情的時候誰會把手機放在身上所以他們一定是攜帶他們想要被監測的數位足跡的這些東西攜帶在身上讓我們去反查來去做查核但是台灣是民主自由的社會在法治的社會上面我們有什麼證據就只能辦到哪裡我們不能說你就是間諜所以說這是利用我們的民主的漏洞利用我們制度的漏洞來要去探路那我覺得這些都是我們必須要先前防範的特別是\n224850\t244913\t如果這些人有軍方的背景或者是安全的背景不知道有沒有過去有過這樣的案例這個是比較特別最近淡水這個案例是大概歷來第一次他自己承認他具有軍方的背景那也引起我們的關注所以也正在查核了解一下他在對岸的真實的身份以及過去的活動的動態\n246161\t261701\t像這樣子的樣態已經不是第一次了從離島直接進入到本島那從到台灣到離我們的首都數位區已經是非常接近的地方那有沒有什麼相關的情資研判怎麼樣要提供給其他的部會嗎?\n262862\t279279\t對,因為案子本身已經由檢方立案在偵辦了那我們都尊重檢方調查的過程跟結果那假如說檢方有需要相關一些國安的單位的評估的意見的話我們很樂意來提供給檢方我希望可以主動提供你們評估的案件因為\n280160\t293615\t政府的部門是要跨部會整合的前幾天上禮拜五我們去參加海委會的這個海事相關的這個研討會的時候我們也接到一些媒體的採訪說我們是國防外交委員會這是內政的為什麼我們要一起去聽\n295197\t320046\t其實很簡單嘛這今天的這個案例齁前幾天的案例在淡水的案例就很清楚的告訴我們說這個東西不是只有一個部會如果一個部會守不住的話那其他部會至少還要去協調來協助嘛那當每一個部會不要本位主義的時候不管是在12海裡還是在6海裡的時候就能夠予以來去截獲不會等到到淡水河口才會有動作所以\n320686\t347470\t我還是要呼籲各個部門不要說這個是屬於A單位、這是屬於B單位、屬於內政部、屬於國防部那一有問題趕快就是要有一個彙整的一個機制管道才可以快速反應是,各位委員報告說明一下第一部分當然是在法律上的處理那因為檢方已經在偵辦這部分我們尊重那第二部分是在行政系統的一個盤點相關的問題以及有沒有哪些的缺失未來要精進的\n348070\t375049\t所以國安會有召開跨部會會議來進行協調那也來了解跟釐清整個過程當中到底有哪些邊防國境安全的漏洞那也要求各單位要來積極的策辦跟精進好謝謝因為我還是在強調這是最基礎最簡單最低科技但最有效的在低科技最簡單最基礎的東西我們沒有做好的話不用講高科技不用講什麼AI防範你最簡單的事情先把它處理完那才有辦法去做應對那當然啦\n377190\t406038\t我們今天看到就是相關的包含海委會有說這個蔡委首是說是有可能是懷疑是因為歸港漁船所以就是大意了沒有去做處置那除了漁船之外我們現在很擔心包含空中的這樣子的能量到時候如果是以像是客機的方式等等就層出不窮我覺得相關的資訊是不是可以請這個國安單位來彙整一個給我們各個不同的部門有一個guideline一個指引我必須強調就是說\n407518\t431047\t我們不能夠依賴個人而是要依賴制度那當然如果一個個人他們在重要的時刻做出很英勇的決定那當然是很好的但是如果只是依照這樣子的話那隨時都是要碰運氣如果沒有制度上面的查核比方說像這一次就有應該請國安局也把過去其他國家的一些做法來提供給這個相關的部門\n431527\t431767\t最後局長我來想講一下\n457408\t477682\t這個機密的這個落實的分級我必須要強調說最近國防部長顧部長他不斷的提到說機密層級那涉及機密層級的狀況去做的背景查核是依照他的職務跟他接觸的敏感的資料不是以他的職位來去做確定那我是希望說這不是只能只於國防部\n478402\t492983\t那我是希望說未來包含其他的部門包括國安局或者其他的情報機構之外外交部甚至是經貿相關的重要的經貿談判的辦事處都必須要有相關的機制這部分是不是可以請您研擬一下二號\n493564\t499670\t市長為什麼講這件事情是因為過去在國安會服務的時候我看到什麼東西都是密或者是機密或者是越來越這跟美國的狀況其實是很類似的他們把密等\n514804\t515464\t陳冠廷陳冠廷\n544094\t558488\t關於我們的機密程度還有我們的可包含國會議員嘛國會議員就是人民所選出來的那當然就是另外一回事但是再包含幕僚長我們的國會助理包含各個你們接觸的這些單位理論上是要有相關的安全查核的等級\n559008\t581343\t那當然不是我們是不是在鼓吹說每一個人都要得到這樣的安全合格其實在跟國會議員的這些幕僚在討論的時候很多他們的幕僚早是不希望有這樣的安全合格對他們來講是心理壓力啊他們必須要接觸到這些密等他們必須要確保說他們不會因此而洩密對他們來講也是很大的壓力不是每一個人都想要但是這是必須要去操作必須要去務實的去做這個做法的因為\n582123\t605659\t我們看到說你說泄密也好我實在很不希望說把每一個人都當成是泄密的對象但是如果你有一個完成的這個安全的合格包含國防的承包商等等都應該有這樣的做法不然就會讓明明不應該要負泄密責任的人負責真正應該要負泄密責任的人你卻追究不到因為你的密等你的揭密的這個層級沒有去做務實的規劃\n607120\t628615\t這個希望局長能夠參考各國的案例做一個完整的規劃不要關門自己造車重新發明如此對這非常重要謝謝委員提醒這個真的很重要因為我還是在強調因為密等每次密到最後全部都是機密那全部都是機密的時候無所不密那就是每一個都要保護每一個保護就是沒有再把資源放在對的上面對不對對瞭解委員的關鍵也同意謝謝\n634756\t637712\t好 謝謝接下來請陳永康委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 陳委員長局長 不知道有沒有印象在兩三年前COVID-19的時候在2020年的時候那金門有幾個來自中國的男子那用無動力的橡皮艇然後說到金門說要投奔自由 有沒有聽過這樣的話有還記得嘛 對不對那也不只一件喔 我記得是兩三件嘛對 這 對\n那這樣子的情報當初有沒有掌握到說這些人的背景是什麼他們的動機是什麼他們想要達成什麼樣的目的對,大概這兩年我想昨天海巡署也對外有說明了從去年到現在這一類中方的偷渡案件大概有十幾件那這些案件當中也都有針對當事人來進行一些偵訊的一個動作然後偵訊完之後再移送檢方來進行調查看有沒有違反我們的入出境管理法以及相關的國安法規\n針對這個問題我不是要問有沒有違反什麼樣的法規我現在是以您是國安局局長的這個身份我想知道這些人的身份背景是什麼我想從北韓然後投誠到南韓的時候他們的這些情報部門還是一些統一部的部門等等全部都要去查核他們的動機不是只是單一性的來去採用他們是要投奔自由這樣的話語那我想請教在金門的時候他們的背景有做查核嗎\n他們當然在接受證訊的過程當中都會有一套的說辭說明自己的身份還有到我們台灣來的主要的動機是什麼那就我們管局來講我們當然會比對他們的相關的一個說辭那歸類出大概有些比較要注意的樣態跟委員做個說明第二部分是他們大概都會提到投奔自由這樣的一個想法第一個共通性\n那第二個也大概都會去勾勒他怎麼樣來透過這些水上的載具到我們的外離島或是到我們的本島因為去年到現在有兩件事到我們本島來一個是在通宵外海一個是前兩天淡水的碼頭\n所以我們會去大概勾勒一下他們的相關的數位足跡因為這些很多都有攜帶他們的手機那我們會來了解一下他們的手機的內容還有相關的數位足跡跟他所公訴的證詞一不一樣那可能手機裡面也會有相關的照片那也可以再來核對一下跟他的陳述內容有沒有一些違反的事實整體來講會發現到他們的一些相關的資訊很多都跟他們的陳述的內容\n所以這大概是我們從過去的樣態所規劃出來一些比較值得可疑的地方\n謝謝局長因為我沒有直接問昨天的事情因為我認為大概只有24到48小時大概也沒有什麼樣最新的內容可能還要一段時間才可以梳理出來但是我要強調從金門的案件我們大概要去查那當他們決定做這些事情的時候包含他們的說法全面都一致喔三年前跟三年後這些人的講法都是一致的那剛才你剛剛說提到他的數位足跡\n通常如果是你說特務也好情報人員要特別要做這件事情的時候誰會把手機放在身上所以他們一定是攜帶他們想要被監測的數位足跡的這些東西攜帶在身上讓我們去反查來去做查核但是台灣是民主自由的社會在法治的社會上面我們有什麼證據就只能辦到哪裡我們不能說你就是間諜所以說這是利用我們的民主的漏洞利用我們制度的漏洞來要去探路那我覺得這些都是我們必須要先前防範的特別是\n如果這些人有軍方的背景或者是安全的背景不知道有沒有過去有過這樣的案例這個是比較特別最近淡水這個案例是大概歷來第一次他自己承認他具有軍方的背景那也引起我們的關注所以也正在查核了解一下他在對岸的真實的身份以及過去的活動的動態\n像這樣子的樣態已經不是第一次了從離島直接進入到本島那從到台灣到離我們的首都數位區已經是非常接近的地方那有沒有什麼相關的情資研判怎麼樣要提供給其他的部會嗎?\n對,因為案子本身已經由檢方立案在偵辦了那我們都尊重檢方調查的過程跟結果那假如說檢方有需要相關一些國安的單位的評估的意見的話我們很樂意來提供給檢方我希望可以主動提供你們評估的案件因為\n政府的部門是要跨部會整合的前幾天上禮拜五我們去參加海委會的這個海事相關的這個研討會的時候我們也接到一些媒體的採訪說我們是國防外交委員會這是內政的為什麼我們要一起去聽\n其實很簡單嘛這今天的這個案例齁前幾天的案例在淡水的案例就很清楚的告訴我們說這個東西不是只有一個部會如果一個部會守不住的話那其他部會至少還要去協調來協助嘛那當每一個部會不要本位主義的時候不管是在12海裡還是在6海裡的時候就能夠予以來去截獲不會等到到淡水河口才會有動作所以\n我還是要呼籲各個部門不要說這個是屬於A單位、這是屬於B單位、屬於內政部、屬於國防部那一有問題趕快就是要有一個彙整的一個機制管道才可以快速反應是,各位委員報告說明一下第一部分當然是在法律上的處理那因為檢方已經在偵辦這部分我們尊重那第二部分是在行政系統的一個盤點相關的問題以及有沒有哪些的缺失未來要精進的\n所以國安會有召開跨部會會議來進行協調那也來了解跟釐清整個過程當中到底有哪些邊防國境安全的漏洞那也要求各單位要來積極的策辦跟精進好謝謝因為我還是在強調這是最基礎最簡單最低科技但最有效的在低科技最簡單最基礎的東西我們沒有做好的話不用講高科技不用講什麼AI防範你最簡單的事情先把它處理完那才有辦法去做應對那當然啦\n我們今天看到就是相關的包含海委會有說這個蔡委首是說是有可能是懷疑是因為歸港漁船所以就是大意了沒有去做處置那除了漁船之外我們現在很擔心包含空中的這樣子的能量到時候如果是以像是客機的方式等等就層出不窮我覺得相關的資訊是不是可以請這個國安單位來彙整一個給我們各個不同的部門有一個guideline一個指引我必須強調就是說\n我們不能夠依賴個人而是要依賴制度那當然如果一個個人他們在重要的時刻做出很英勇的決定那當然是很好的但是如果只是依照這樣子的話那隨時都是要碰運氣如果沒有制度上面的查核比方說像這一次就有應該請國安局也把過去其他國家的一些做法來提供給這個相關的部門\n最後局長我來想講一下\n這個機密的這個落實的分級我必須要強調說最近國防部長顧部長他不斷的提到說機密層級那涉及機密層級的狀況去做的背景查核是依照他的職務跟他接觸的敏感的資料不是以他的職位來去做確定那我是希望說這不是只能只於國防部\n那我是希望說未來包含其他的部門包括國安局或者其他的情報機構之外外交部甚至是經貿相關的重要的經貿談判的辦事處都必須要有相關的機制這部分是不是可以請您研擬一下二號\n市長為什麼講這件事情是因為過去在國安會服務的時候我看到什麼東西都是密或者是機密或者是越來越這跟美國的狀況其實是很類似的他們把密等\n陳冠廷陳冠廷\n關於我們的機密程度還有我們的可包含國會議員嘛國會議員就是人民所選出來的那當然就是另外一回事但是再包含幕僚長我們的國會助理包含各個你們接觸的這些單位理論上是要有相關的安全查核的等級\n那當然不是我們是不是在鼓吹說每一個人都要得到這樣的安全合格其實在跟國會議員的這些幕僚在討論的時候很多他們的幕僚早是不希望有這樣的安全合格對他們來講是心理壓力啊他們必須要接觸到這些密等他們必須要確保說他們不會因此而洩密對他們來講也是很大的壓力不是每一個人都想要但是這是必須要去操作必須要去務實的去做這個做法的因為\n我們看到說你說泄密也好我實在很不希望說把每一個人都當成是泄密的對象但是如果你有一個完成的這個安全的合格包含國防的承包商等等都應該有這樣的做法不然就會讓明明不應該要負泄密責任的人負責真正應該要負泄密責任的人你卻追究不到因為你的密等你的揭密的這個層級沒有去做務實的規劃\n這個希望局長能夠參考各國的案例做一個完整的規劃不要關門自己造車重新發明如此對這非常重要謝謝委員提醒這個真的很重要因為我還是在強調因為密等每次密到最後全部都是機密那全部都是機密的時候無所不密那就是每一個都要保護每一個保護就是沒有再把資源放在對的上面對不對對瞭解委員的關鍵也同意謝謝\n好 謝謝接下來請陳永康委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.568 --> 00:26.314\n好謝謝主席陳委員長局長不知道有沒有印象在兩三年前COVID-19的時候在2020年的時候那金門有幾個來自中國的男子那用無動力的橡皮艇然後說到金門說要投奔自由有沒有聽過這樣的話有還記得嘛對不對那也不只一件喔我記得是兩三件嘛對這對\n\n00:28.234 --> 00:57.193\n那這樣子的情報當初有沒有掌握到說這些人的背景是什麼他們的動機是什麼他們想要達成什麼樣的目的對,大概這兩年我想昨天海巡署也對外有說明了從去年到現在這一類中方的偷渡案件大概有十幾件那這些案件當中也都有針對當事人來進行一些偵訊的一個動作然後偵訊完之後再移送檢方來進行調查看有沒有違反我們的入出境管理法以及相關的國安法規\n\n00:59.134 --> 01:26.943\n針對這個問題我不是要問有沒有違反什麼樣的法規我現在是以您是國安局局長的這個身份我想知道這些人的身份背景是什麼我想從北韓然後投誠到南韓的時候他們的這些情報部門還是一些統一部的部門等等全部都要去查核他們的動機不是只是單一性的來去採用他們是要投奔自由這樣的話語那我想請教在金門的時候他們的背景有做查核嗎\n\n01:28.143 --> 01:49.369\n他們當然在接受證訊的過程當中都會有一套的說辭說明自己的身份還有到我們台灣來的主要的動機是什麼那就我們管局來講我們當然會比對他們的相關的一個說辭那歸類出大概有些比較要注意的樣態跟委員做個說明第二部分是他們大概都會提到投奔自由這樣的一個想法第一個共通性\n\n01:50.129 --> 02:03.486\n那第二個也大概都會去勾勒他怎麼樣來透過這些水上的載具到我們的外離島或是到我們的本島因為去年到現在有兩件事到我們本島來一個是在通宵外海一個是前兩天淡水的碼頭\n\n02:05.388 --> 02:31.011\n所以我們會去大概勾勒一下他們的相關的數位足跡因為這些很多都有攜帶他們的手機那我們會來了解一下他們的手機的內容還有相關的數位足跡跟他所公訴的證詞一不一樣那可能手機裡面也會有相關的照片那也可以再來核對一下跟他的陳述內容有沒有一些違反的事實整體來講會發現到他們的一些相關的資訊很多都跟他們的陳述的內容\n\n02:31.391 --> 02:33.854\n所以這大概是我們從過去的樣態所規劃出來一些比較值得可疑的地方\n\n02:53.155 --> 03:16.224\n謝謝局長因為我沒有直接問昨天的事情因為我認為大概只有24到48小時大概也沒有什麼樣最新的內容可能還要一段時間才可以梳理出來但是我要強調從金門的案件我們大概要去查那當他們決定做這些事情的時候包含他們的說法全面都一致喔三年前跟三年後這些人的講法都是一致的那剛才你剛剛說提到他的數位足跡\n\n03:16.784 --> 03:44.050\n通常如果是你說特務也好情報人員要特別要做這件事情的時候誰會把手機放在身上所以他們一定是攜帶他們想要被監測的數位足跡的這些東西攜帶在身上讓我們去反查來去做查核但是台灣是民主自由的社會在法治的社會上面我們有什麼證據就只能辦到哪裡我們不能說你就是間諜所以說這是利用我們的民主的漏洞利用我們制度的漏洞來要去探路那我覺得這些都是我們必須要先前防範的特別是\n\n03:44.850 --> 04:04.913\n如果這些人有軍方的背景或者是安全的背景不知道有沒有過去有過這樣的案例這個是比較特別最近淡水這個案例是大概歷來第一次他自己承認他具有軍方的背景那也引起我們的關注所以也正在查核了解一下他在對岸的真實的身份以及過去的活動的動態\n\n04:06.161 --> 04:21.701\n像這樣子的樣態已經不是第一次了從離島直接進入到本島那從到台灣到離我們的首都數位區已經是非常接近的地方那有沒有什麼相關的情資研判怎麼樣要提供給其他的部會嗎?\n\n04:22.862 --> 04:39.279\n對,因為案子本身已經由檢方立案在偵辦了那我們都尊重檢方調查的過程跟結果那假如說檢方有需要相關一些國安的單位的評估的意見的話我們很樂意來提供給檢方我希望可以主動提供你們評估的案件因為\n\n04:40.160 --> 04:53.615\n政府的部門是要跨部會整合的前幾天上禮拜五我們去參加海委會的這個海事相關的這個研討會的時候我們也接到一些媒體的採訪說我們是國防外交委員會這是內政的為什麼我們要一起去聽\n\n04:55.197 --> 05:20.046\n其實很簡單嘛這今天的這個案例齁前幾天的案例在淡水的案例就很清楚的告訴我們說這個東西不是只有一個部會如果一個部會守不住的話那其他部會至少還要去協調來協助嘛那當每一個部會不要本位主義的時候不管是在12海裡還是在6海裡的時候就能夠予以來去截獲不會等到到淡水河口才會有動作所以\n\n05:20.686 --> 05:47.470\n我還是要呼籲各個部門不要說這個是屬於A單位、這是屬於B單位、屬於內政部、屬於國防部那一有問題趕快就是要有一個彙整的一個機制管道才可以快速反應是,各位委員報告說明一下第一部分當然是在法律上的處理那因為檢方已經在偵辦這部分我們尊重那第二部分是在行政系統的一個盤點相關的問題以及有沒有哪些的缺失未來要精進的\n\n05:48.070 --> 06:15.049\n所以國安會有召開跨部會會議來進行協調那也來了解跟釐清整個過程當中到底有哪些邊防國境安全的漏洞那也要求各單位要來積極的策辦跟精進好謝謝因為我還是在強調這是最基礎最簡單最低科技但最有效的在低科技最簡單最基礎的東西我們沒有做好的話不用講高科技不用講什麼AI防範你最簡單的事情先把它處理完那才有辦法去做應對那當然啦\n\n06:17.190 --> 06:46.038\n我們今天看到就是相關的包含海委會有說這個蔡委首是說是有可能是懷疑是因為歸港漁船所以就是大意了沒有去做處置那除了漁船之外我們現在很擔心包含空中的這樣子的能量到時候如果是以像是客機的方式等等就層出不窮我覺得相關的資訊是不是可以請這個國安單位來彙整一個給我們各個不同的部門有一個guideline一個指引我必須強調就是說\n\n06:47.518 --> 07:11.047\n我們不能夠依賴個人而是要依賴制度那當然如果一個個人他們在重要的時刻做出很英勇的決定那當然是很好的但是如果只是依照這樣子的話那隨時都是要碰運氣如果沒有制度上面的查核比方說像這一次就有應該請國安局也把過去其他國家的一些做法來提供給這個相關的部門\n\n07:11.527 --> 07:11.767\n最後局長我來想講一下\n\n07:37.408 --> 07:57.682\n這個機密的這個落實的分級我必須要強調說最近國防部長顧部長他不斷的提到說機密層級那涉及機密層級的狀況去做的背景查核是依照他的職務跟他接觸的敏感的資料不是以他的職位來去做確定那我是希望說這不是只能只於國防部\n\n07:58.402 --> 08:12.983\n那我是希望說未來包含其他的部門包括國安局或者其他的情報機構之外外交部甚至是經貿相關的重要的經貿談判的辦事處都必須要有相關的機制這部分是不是可以請您研擬一下二號\n\n08:13.564 --> 08:19.670\n市長為什麼講這件事情是因為過去在國安會服務的時候我看到什麼東西都是密或者是機密或者是越來越這跟美國的狀況其實是很類似的他們把密等\n\n08:34.804 --> 08:35.464\n陳冠廷陳冠廷\n\n09:04.094 --> 09:18.488\n關於我們的機密程度還有我們的可包含國會議員嘛國會議員就是人民所選出來的那當然就是另外一回事但是再包含幕僚長我們的國會助理包含各個你們接觸的這些單位理論上是要有相關的安全查核的等級\n\n09:19.008 --> 09:41.343\n那當然不是我們是不是在鼓吹說每一個人都要得到這樣的安全合格其實在跟國會議員的這些幕僚在討論的時候很多他們的幕僚早是不希望有這樣的安全合格對他們來講是心理壓力啊他們必須要接觸到這些密等他們必須要確保說他們不會因此而洩密對他們來講也是很大的壓力不是每一個人都想要但是這是必須要去操作必須要去務實的去做這個做法的因為\n\n09:42.123 --> 10:05.659\n我們看到說你說泄密也好我實在很不希望說把每一個人都當成是泄密的對象但是如果你有一個完成的這個安全的合格包含國防的承包商等等都應該有這樣的做法不然就會讓明明不應該要負泄密責任的人負責真正應該要負泄密責任的人你卻追究不到因為你的密等你的揭密的這個層級沒有去做務實的規劃\n\n10:07.120 --> 10:28.615\n這個希望局長能夠參考各國的案例做一個完整的規劃不要關門自己造車重新發明如此對這非常重要謝謝委員提醒這個真的很重要因為我還是在強調因為密等每次密到最後全部都是機密那全部都是機密的時候無所不密那就是每一個都要保護每一個保護就是沒有再把資源放在對的上面對不對對瞭解委員的關鍵也同意謝謝\n\n10:34.756 --> 10:37.712\n好謝謝接下來請陳永康委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.568,"end":26.314,"text":"好 謝謝主席 陳委員長局長 不知道有沒有印象在兩三年前COVID-19的時候在2020年的時候那金門有幾個來自中國的男子那用無動力的橡皮艇然後說到金門說要投奔自由 有沒有聽過這樣的話有還記得嘛 對不對那也不只一件喔 我記得是兩三件嘛對 這 對"},{"start":28.234,"end":57.193,"text":"那這樣子的情報當初有沒有掌握到說這些人的背景是什麼他們的動機是什麼他們想要達成什麼樣的目的對,大概這兩年我想昨天海巡署也對外有說明了從去年到現在這一類中方的偷渡案件大概有十幾件那這些案件當中也都有針對當事人來進行一些偵訊的一個動作然後偵訊完之後再移送檢方來進行調查看有沒有違反我們的入出境管理法以及相關的國安法規"},{"start":59.134,"end":86.943,"text":"針對這個問題我不是要問有沒有違反什麼樣的法規我現在是以您是國安局局長的這個身份我想知道這些人的身份背景是什麼我想從北韓然後投誠到南韓的時候他們的這些情報部門還是一些統一部的部門等等全部都要去查核他們的動機不是只是單一性的來去採用他們是要投奔自由這樣的話語那我想請教在金門的時候他們的背景有做查核嗎"},{"start":88.143,"end":109.369,"text":"他們當然在接受證訊的過程當中都會有一套的說辭說明自己的身份還有到我們台灣來的主要的動機是什麼那就我們管局來講我們當然會比對他們的相關的一個說辭那歸類出大概有些比較要注意的樣態跟委員做個說明第二部分是他們大概都會提到投奔自由這樣的一個想法第一個共通性"},{"start":110.129,"end":123.486,"text":"那第二個也大概都會去勾勒他怎麼樣來透過這些水上的載具到我們的外離島或是到我們的本島因為去年到現在有兩件事到我們本島來一個是在通宵外海一個是前兩天淡水的碼頭"},{"start":125.388,"end":151.011,"text":"所以我們會去大概勾勒一下他們的相關的數位足跡因為這些很多都有攜帶他們的手機那我們會來了解一下他們的手機的內容還有相關的數位足跡跟他所公訴的證詞一不一樣那可能手機裡面也會有相關的照片那也可以再來核對一下跟他的陳述內容有沒有一些違反的事實整體來講會發現到他們的一些相關的資訊很多都跟他們的陳述的內容"},{"start":151.391,"end":153.854,"text":"所以這大概是我們從過去的樣態所規劃出來一些比較值得可疑的地方"},{"start":173.155,"end":196.224,"text":"謝謝局長因為我沒有直接問昨天的事情因為我認為大概只有24到48小時大概也沒有什麼樣最新的內容可能還要一段時間才可以梳理出來但是我要強調從金門的案件我們大概要去查那當他們決定做這些事情的時候包含他們的說法全面都一致喔三年前跟三年後這些人的講法都是一致的那剛才你剛剛說提到他的數位足跡"},{"start":196.784,"end":224.05,"text":"通常如果是你說特務也好情報人員要特別要做這件事情的時候誰會把手機放在身上所以他們一定是攜帶他們想要被監測的數位足跡的這些東西攜帶在身上讓我們去反查來去做查核但是台灣是民主自由的社會在法治的社會上面我們有什麼證據就只能辦到哪裡我們不能說你就是間諜所以說這是利用我們的民主的漏洞利用我們制度的漏洞來要去探路那我覺得這些都是我們必須要先前防範的特別是"},{"start":224.85,"end":244.913,"text":"如果這些人有軍方的背景或者是安全的背景不知道有沒有過去有過這樣的案例這個是比較特別最近淡水這個案例是大概歷來第一次他自己承認他具有軍方的背景那也引起我們的關注所以也正在查核了解一下他在對岸的真實的身份以及過去的活動的動態"},{"start":246.161,"end":261.701,"text":"像這樣子的樣態已經不是第一次了從離島直接進入到本島那從到台灣到離我們的首都數位區已經是非常接近的地方那有沒有什麼相關的情資研判怎麼樣要提供給其他的部會嗎?"},{"start":262.862,"end":279.279,"text":"對,因為案子本身已經由檢方立案在偵辦了那我們都尊重檢方調查的過程跟結果那假如說檢方有需要相關一些國安的單位的評估的意見的話我們很樂意來提供給檢方我希望可以主動提供你們評估的案件因為"},{"start":280.16,"end":293.615,"text":"政府的部門是要跨部會整合的前幾天上禮拜五我們去參加海委會的這個海事相關的這個研討會的時候我們也接到一些媒體的採訪說我們是國防外交委員會這是內政的為什麼我們要一起去聽"},{"start":295.197,"end":320.046,"text":"其實很簡單嘛這今天的這個案例齁前幾天的案例在淡水的案例就很清楚的告訴我們說這個東西不是只有一個部會如果一個部會守不住的話那其他部會至少還要去協調來協助嘛那當每一個部會不要本位主義的時候不管是在12海裡還是在6海裡的時候就能夠予以來去截獲不會等到到淡水河口才會有動作所以"},{"start":320.686,"end":347.47,"text":"我還是要呼籲各個部門不要說這個是屬於A單位、這是屬於B單位、屬於內政部、屬於國防部那一有問題趕快就是要有一個彙整的一個機制管道才可以快速反應是,各位委員報告說明一下第一部分當然是在法律上的處理那因為檢方已經在偵辦這部分我們尊重那第二部分是在行政系統的一個盤點相關的問題以及有沒有哪些的缺失未來要精進的"},{"start":348.07,"end":375.049,"text":"所以國安會有召開跨部會會議來進行協調那也來了解跟釐清整個過程當中到底有哪些邊防國境安全的漏洞那也要求各單位要來積極的策辦跟精進好謝謝因為我還是在強調這是最基礎最簡單最低科技但最有效的在低科技最簡單最基礎的東西我們沒有做好的話不用講高科技不用講什麼AI防範你最簡單的事情先把它處理完那才有辦法去做應對那當然啦"},{"start":377.19,"end":406.038,"text":"我們今天看到就是相關的包含海委會有說這個蔡委首是說是有可能是懷疑是因為歸港漁船所以就是大意了沒有去做處置那除了漁船之外我們現在很擔心包含空中的這樣子的能量到時候如果是以像是客機的方式等等就層出不窮我覺得相關的資訊是不是可以請這個國安單位來彙整一個給我們各個不同的部門有一個guideline一個指引我必須強調就是說"},{"start":407.518,"end":431.047,"text":"我們不能夠依賴個人而是要依賴制度那當然如果一個個人他們在重要的時刻做出很英勇的決定那當然是很好的但是如果只是依照這樣子的話那隨時都是要碰運氣如果沒有制度上面的查核比方說像這一次就有應該請國安局也把過去其他國家的一些做法來提供給這個相關的部門"},{"start":431.527,"end":431.767,"text":"最後局長我來想講一下"},{"start":457.408,"end":477.682,"text":"這個機密的這個落實的分級我必須要強調說最近國防部長顧部長他不斷的提到說機密層級那涉及機密層級的狀況去做的背景查核是依照他的職務跟他接觸的敏感的資料不是以他的職位來去做確定那我是希望說這不是只能只於國防部"},{"start":478.402,"end":492.983,"text":"那我是希望說未來包含其他的部門包括國安局或者其他的情報機構之外外交部甚至是經貿相關的重要的經貿談判的辦事處都必須要有相關的機制這部分是不是可以請您研擬一下二號"},{"start":493.564,"end":499.67,"text":"市長為什麼講這件事情是因為過去在國安會服務的時候我看到什麼東西都是密或者是機密或者是越來越這跟美國的狀況其實是很類似的他們把密等"},{"start":514.804,"end":515.464,"text":"陳冠廷陳冠廷"},{"start":544.094,"end":558.488,"text":"關於我們的機密程度還有我們的可包含國會議員嘛國會議員就是人民所選出來的那當然就是另外一回事但是再包含幕僚長我們的國會助理包含各個你們接觸的這些單位理論上是要有相關的安全查核的等級"},{"start":559.008,"end":581.343,"text":"那當然不是我們是不是在鼓吹說每一個人都要得到這樣的安全合格其實在跟國會議員的這些幕僚在討論的時候很多他們的幕僚早是不希望有這樣的安全合格對他們來講是心理壓力啊他們必須要接觸到這些密等他們必須要確保說他們不會因此而洩密對他們來講也是很大的壓力不是每一個人都想要但是這是必須要去操作必須要去務實的去做這個做法的因為"},{"start":582.123,"end":605.659,"text":"我們看到說你說泄密也好我實在很不希望說把每一個人都當成是泄密的對象但是如果你有一個完成的這個安全的合格包含國防的承包商等等都應該有這樣的做法不然就會讓明明不應該要負泄密責任的人負責真正應該要負泄密責任的人你卻追究不到因為你的密等你的揭密的這個層級沒有去做務實的規劃"},{"start":607.12,"end":628.615,"text":"這個希望局長能夠參考各國的案例做一個完整的規劃不要關門自己造車重新發明如此對這非常重要謝謝委員提醒這個真的很重要因為我還是在強調因為密等每次密到最後全部都是機密那全部都是機密的時候無所不密那就是每一個都要保護每一個保護就是沒有再把資源放在對的上面對不對對瞭解委員的關鍵也同意謝謝"},{"start":634.756,"end":637.712,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請陳永康委員"}]}}}}