{"id":153811,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153811","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81959cf65311bbb4a7159a48fe1a1d57c38139eec4d40364b4f43ecd620c67a78185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:41:45 - 09:53:36","影片長度":"00:11:51","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T09:41:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T09:53:36+08:00","duration":711,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":213,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時41分）謝謝主席。主席，有請中華電信。"],["主席：請中華電信林副總。"],["林委員楚茵：副總早，我們今天的題目是我們國家如何運用民間的設備來蒐集相關的國安資訊，不過剛剛、前面有委員用連連看的方式來質疑一個叫做是方電訊，現在是不是意圖不軌的來蒐集國家的情報，或者是蒐集人民的個資。我先請問一下，是方電訊跟中華電信之間是什麼樣的關係，除了是子公司之外，業務上面有往來嗎？請開麥克風，不要緊張，業務上面是什麼樣的關聯呢？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，業務上，就是我們在IDC租賃上、在市場上共同去面向客戶取得客戶的IDC租賃業務，還有電路的出租業務。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以在業務上是合作關係，還是是方跟中華電信來承租，或是中華電信跟是方來承租，是哪一種？"],["林副總經理文智：是方有自己獨立的IDC機房的建置，中華電信也有自己的IDC機房，但是客戶的需求可能會有不同，所以我們是依照客戶的需求來提供不同類型或等級的IDC服務。"],["林委員楚茵：言下之意就是一種策略聯盟，好，我就明確地說，中華電信有沒有資料放在是方電訊裡面，就是中華電信的客戶資料有存放在是方所謂的IDC裡面嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，沒有。"],["林委員楚茵：如果沒有的話，剛剛的委員質詢提到有沒有可能洩露情資的時候，你不是應該要明確地說出來嗎？要把這樣的關係講清楚，否則這種連連看、沒有證據，馬上就變成了什麼？這傳出去好像變成中華電信跟是方電訊一起來情蒐，或是搜羅民間的資訊喔！所以我再問一次，中華電信的客戶資料有存在是方電訊的IDC裡嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，沒有。"],["林委員楚茵：好，瞭解，謝謝。主席，有請國安局蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：局長，今天對民眾來說，最重要的當然還是安全維護的部分，中共是不是利用端午節假期發動灰色侵擾？其實中共所發動的灰色侵擾是持續在進行當中，本席把這次的快艇事件往前推，在6月8號的時候，中國無人機就到金門發送傳單，甚至在抖音上有直播主表示他們要直接侵擾金門，從6月8號到6月9號的這兩個事件，國安局怎麼看？國安局認為這兩個事件有關連性嗎？又或者中國灰色衝突的持續上升，其實是有步驟、有計畫性的，國安局這邊有掌握一定情資嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這大概分兩個部分，一個是中共對臺灣灰色地帶襲擾的整體樣態。從今年年初以來，特別在選後，我們就預判中共可能會有非常密集的灰色地帶，包括海空的襲擾，這部分包括M503航線的開設、剛剛委員提到的無人機襲擾，以及中國公務船舶在我們外離島禁限制水域的活動。另外，在演習期間，也第一次動用海警船在臺海周邊水域進行執法巡查的動作，再加上偶爾……包括這次的淡水快艇侵入事件，所以整個統括來看，不能夠排除這是一種海空灰色地帶襲擾的操作。不只是臺灣，我們注意到周邊國家，包括美國、日本、菲律賓，也都有注意到中共在這一方面的動作有不斷加強的趨勢，所以就我們整體態勢判斷，我們認為確實不能排除是中共有系統、有計畫的灰色地帶襲擾活動，這是第一部分。","第二部分是針對個案部分。針對個案部分，國安局這邊會統合各個情報單位跟視同情報機關來蒐集相關不同的個案，以淡水這個個案來講，因為這一次的這個當事人、嫌疑人具有解放軍背景，這部分我們也會透過我們的國安系統，瞭解跟查察他的解放軍背景在這一次快艇侵入事件的意涵，還有背後有沒有中共操作的手法等等。"],["林委員楚茵：好，從局長的回答就知道這一切其實都在掌握之中，但重點就在於國安局的掌握之中，訊息有沒有橫向連結到包括我們現在講的海巡署等等？主席，不好意思，我要請海巡署。"],["主席：請海巡署。"],["林委員楚茵：局長，你先留步。這是本席一直以來的統計數字，8年來，中國船隻非法越界已經從1.6萬艘變成現在的1.8萬艘，言下之意，就是中國用非法船隻越界方式的灰色衝突是越來越高，對於海巡署及國安局而言，你們在國安相關單位或者是巡護海防的部分，感受到中國非法船隻不斷侵門踏戶的狀況底下，對於這一次所謂有解放軍背景的人直接划著小艇進入淡水河口，在這樣的過程當中，難道國安局的資料沒有給海巡嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：有關這部分，海巡署是24小時全天候待命、監偵海面目標，這部分我們跟國安局等相關情資單位彼此都保持密切聯繫。"],["林委員楚茵：從發現到確定、逮捕，而且是發生了衝突之後，這中間空白了50分鐘，到底彼此之間發生什麼樣的狀況？不能說因為第一線的弟兄是從別的地方調過來，所以不熟悉，我相信這個絕對不是理由跟藉口。面對中國不斷地提升所謂灰色地帶的侵擾，其非法船隻直接越界進入家門的狀況，難道我們沒有一個好的判斷方式，一定得要發生衝突或是鄰近的漁船或本國的漁船來通報之後，你們才會瞭解狀況嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，這個案子我們事後檢討、評估，海巡的偵蒐系統完全正常，絕對沒有漏接，我們在6浬就發現，因為當時海面上有57艘船隻，我們第一線的雷達操作員誤判為是進港的正常船舶，但他也有通報安檢所跟守望哨全程監控，在11點10分船靠碼頭之後，就馬上逮捕。當然這個案子具有高風險，所以我們不僅加強教育訓練，也引進各式各樣的偵蒐設備來用科技輔勤。"],["林委員楚茵：好。局長，針對這個部分，國安局回答得非常好，對於整體的狀況也有掌握，但是在橫向的連結和聯繫上，當你們看到這樣的個案後，未來會不會更積極主動彼此做一些聯繫呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該的、應該的，這部分我剛剛有跟陳冠廷委員說明過，國安會也有召開跨部會會議，檢討這個個案到底還有沒有哪一些可以策進的作為。就這個個案來講，就像剛剛海巡署說明的，因為它的船身不大，大概是只有七公尺的小船，這種小船海巡署的雷達可以在六浬外就發現，相關的掌蒐程度已經算是相當不錯，當然，如果船隻噸位更大，是可以在更遠的水域就預先警覺到，而在六浬外發現到它，接下來也像海巡署所提到的，必須要檢討作業機制裡有沒有哪些漏洞，而要補足這些漏洞，可能是從這個案例來精進我們後續強化邊境海防安全的一個主要檢討重點。"],["林委員楚茵：好，其實本席是希望橫向的聯繫當中，如果以國安局為首的話，應該要整體組織起來……"],["蔡局長明彥：是，應該的。"],["林委員楚茵：因為就像我提到的，他其實不是一個6月9號的個案，往前推，可能是從6月8號就開始，是在過節時候，一系列滋擾臺灣的行動，我們以前也常常發現在長假期的過程當中，中國都會發動所謂的灰色攻擊、灰色地帶的侵擾等等。最後我想請法務部政次。"],["主席：請政次。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：兩位先請回。本席稍微整理了一下近10年來中國偷渡的人數，當然現在比較都是個位數字，但是不是因為我們的法規太輕了？入出國及移民法第七十四條規定，可以懲處五年以下有期徒刑，易科罰金五十萬。我們回到判例來看，我就舉三個判例，2023年中國盛姓男子游泳到小金門，判刑四個月，可易科罰金十二萬臺幣，大概是人民幣二萬多元，不到三萬。2021年從中國福建省航行11小時到臺灣海峽，判刑二個月，易科罰金才六萬元。2019年富商之子偷渡來臺灣，結果是根本不起訴，直接遣返。本席要請教次長，就法務部立場，這會不會讓中國覺得操作灰色侵擾的代價很低？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，事實上我稍微瞭解一下，我們的檢察官在辦理相關案件的時候，如剛剛委員所垂詢的，是不是有橫向聯繫？事實上，地檢署、調查局跟國安單位都有相關聯繫，剛剛討論的那個案子，我們士檢的國安專責檢察官也在積極偵辦中。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["黃次長世杰：我想當然會視相關案件的情節而有不一樣的處置，事實上，歷年來的偷渡案件比委員所……"],["林委員楚茵：書面上的數字還多？"],["黃次長世杰：相關案件數還要更多，但是並非全部都不起訴，事實上，包含簡易判決處刑的起訴案件跟一般通常程序起訴的案件加總，是遠遠超過不起訴，但是相關情勢如果變更，譬如有時候國家認為在這方面的嚇阻需要提高、加強，相關部會主管的法規需要修正，法務部都會樂意協助。"],["林委員楚茵：好，除了修改法規之外，本席把這樣的法條找出來，是因為可以易科罰金，然後科五十萬元以下，但是你看看判出來的結果，因為刑期很低，所以金額也就相對偏低，本席認為要不要修法可以再考慮，但是在判刑上，如果他已經是敵對勢力意圖侵擾臺灣的安危，那麼在判刑上應該要予以加重，這個是本席認為的。"],["黃次長世杰：是，地檢署這邊也會加強跟國安資訊的連通，如果真的有委員所說的是跟灰色地帶入侵有關的案件，我們掌握相關證據的話，會在起訴的時候，具體向法官求刑，但是這還是要看案件的事實來決定，以上跟委員報告。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"153811","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153811","tool":"pyannote","id":"153811-pyannote"},"job_id":"o9zcnXFp5ub1Em3s","queued_at":"2024-06-12 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67.593, \"end\": 67.913, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"承\", \"start\": 67.913, \"end\": 68.173, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"租\", \"start\": 68.173, \"end\": 68.433, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 68.433, \"end\": 68.594, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 68.594, \"end\": 68.754, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 68.754, \"end\": 69.254, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"華\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 69.254, \"end\": 69.474, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 69.474, \"end\": 69.654, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 69.654, \"end\": 69.814, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 69.814, \"end\": 70.034, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"承\", \"start\": 70.034, \"end\": 70.235, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"租\", \"start\": 70.235, \"end\": 70.255, \"score\": 0.081}]}, {\"start\": 71.936, \"end\": 88.797, \"text\": \"市方有自己獨立的這個IDC機房的建置,中華電信也有自己的IDC機房,但是客戶的需求可能會有不同,所以我們是集團公司依照客戶的需求來提供不同類型或等級的IDC服務。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 71.936, \"end\": 73.098, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 73.098, \"end\": 73.278, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 73.278, \"end\": 73.438, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 73.438, \"end\": 73.598, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 73.598, \"end\": 73.999, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"獨\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 73.999, \"end\": 74.179, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 74.179, \"end\": 74.76, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 74.76, \"end\": 75.0, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"D\", \"start\": 75.0, \"end\": 75.2, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 75.2, \"end\": 75.701, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"房\", \"start\": 75.701, \"end\": 75.881, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 75.881, 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\"言下之意就是一種策略聯謀好那我就明確的說中華電信有沒有資料放在市方電信裡面就是中華電信的客戶資料有存在市方的所謂的IDC裡面嗎?包委沒有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 89.358, \"end\": 89.659, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 89.659, \"end\": 89.999, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 89.999, \"end\": 90.219, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 90.219, \"end\": 90.58, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 90.58, \"end\": 90.8, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 90.8, \"end\": 90.88, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 90.88, \"end\": 91.221, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 91.221, \"end\": 91.401, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"略\", \"start\": 91.401, \"end\": 91.782, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"聯\"}, {\"word\": \"謀\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 91.782, \"end\": 92.563, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 92.563, \"end\": 92.703, \"score\": 0.525}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 92.703, \"end\": 92.783, 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\"方\", \"start\": 97.67, \"end\": 97.991, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 97.991, \"end\": 98.311, \"score\": 0.636}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 98.311, \"end\": 98.812, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 98.812, \"end\": 98.972, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 98.972, \"end\": 99.092, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 99.092, \"end\": 99.513, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"華\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 99.513, \"end\": 99.633, \"score\": 0.581}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 99.633, \"end\": 99.773, \"score\": 0.659}, {\"word\": \"客\", \"start\": 99.773, \"end\": 100.234, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"戶\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 100.234, \"end\": 100.715, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 100.715, \"end\": 100.955, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"存\", \"start\": 100.955, \"end\": 101.235, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 101.235, \"end\": 101.676, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 101.676, \"end\": 101.876, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 101.876, \"end\": 102.037, \"score\": 0.677}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 102.037, \"end\": 102.297, \"score\": 0.611}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 102.297, \"end\": 102.517, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 102.517, \"end\": 102.537, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 102.537, \"end\": 102.958, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"D\", \"start\": 102.958, \"end\": 103.058, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 103.058, \"end\": 103.078, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 103.078, \"end\": 103.118, \"score\": 0.403}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 103.118, \"end\": 103.218, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 103.218, \"end\": 103.238, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 103.238, \"end\": 103.298, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 103.298, \"end\": 103.318, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 105.822, \"end\": 134.447, \"text\": \"如果沒有的話剛剛的委員質詢說有沒有可能洩漏情資的時候你不是應該要明確的說出來嗎?要把這樣的關係講清楚否則這種連連看沒有證據馬上就變成什麼傳出去那就好像變成是中華電信跟釋放電信一起來情搜或是收羅民間的資訊喔所以我再問一次中華電信的客戶資料有存在釋放電信的IDC裡頭嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 105.822, \"end\": 106.062, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 106.062, \"end\": 106.222, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 106.222, \"end\": 106.402, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 106.402, \"end\": 106.582, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 106.582, \"end\": 107.522, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 107.522, \"end\": 107.622, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 107.622, \"end\": 109.103, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 678.335, \"end\": 679.375, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 679.375, \"end\": 679.915, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"予\", \"start\": 679.915, \"end\": 680.095, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 680.095, \"end\": 680.395, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 680.395, \"end\": 680.636, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 680.636, \"end\": 680.996, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 680.996, \"end\": 681.096, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 681.096, \"end\": 681.236, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 681.236, \"end\": 681.336, \"score\": 0.659}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 681.336, \"end\": 681.356, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 682.076, \"end\": 682.336, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 682.336, \"end\": 683.116, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 683.116, \"end\": 683.276, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 683.276, \"end\": 683.336, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 683.336, \"end\": 683.476, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 683.476, \"end\": 683.496, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,689 --> 00:00:05,553\n謝謝主席主席有請中華電信請中華電信林副總\n\n2\n00:00:11,854 --> 00:00:20,858\n副總長我們今天的題目當然是叫做我們的國家如何來運用民間的設備來收集相關的國安資訊不過剛剛前面有委員用連連看的方式來質疑說這個有個叫市方電信的現在是不是意圖不軌的來蒐集國家的情報或者是蒐集人民的個資我先請問一下市方電信跟中華電信之間是什麼樣的關係除了是子公司之外業務上面有往來嗎\n\n3\n00:00:42,397 --> 00:01:10,255\n開麥克風不要緊張業務上面是什麼樣的關聯跟委員報告業務上就是我們在IDC租賃上那個在市場上共同去面向客戶取得客戶的這個IDC租賃業務還有那個電路的出租業務好所以說在業務上是合作關係還是市方跟中華電信來承租或是中華電信來跟市方承租\n\n4\n00:01:11,936 --> 00:01:28,797\n市方有自己獨立的這個IDC機房的建置,中華電信也有自己的IDC機房,但是客戶的需求可能會有不同,所以我們是集團公司依照客戶的需求來提供不同類型或等級的IDC服務。\n\n5\n00:01:29,358 --> 00:01:43,318\n言下之意就是一種策略聯謀好那我就明確的說中華電信有沒有資料放在市方電信裡面就是中華電信的客戶資料有存在市方的所謂的IDC裡面嗎?包委沒有\n\n6\n00:01:45,822 --> 00:02:14,447\n如果沒有的話剛剛的委員質詢說有沒有可能洩漏情資的時候你不是應該要明確的說出來嗎?要把這樣的關係講清楚否則這種連連看沒有證據馬上就變成什麼傳出去那就好像變成是中華電信跟釋放電信一起來情搜或是收羅民間的資訊喔所以我再問一次中華電信的客戶資料有存在釋放電信的IDC裡頭嗎?\n\n7\n00:02:15,627 --> 00:02:21,431\n主席有請國安局蔡局長我想其實今天對於民眾來說最重要的當然還是安全的維護的部分那麼其實我想要救教局長的部分就是其實是不是利用這個端午節假期中共所發動的灰色青老\n\n8\n00:02:42,586 --> 00:02:57,756\n其實在持續當中本席想要把這個快艇的事件往前推其實在6月8號的時候中國的無人機其實到金門去發送傳單甚至於在抖音上面有直播主直接就說他們要直接來侵擾金門\n\n9\n00:03:00,578 --> 00:03:21,236\n這從6月8號到6月9號兩個事件國安局怎麼看?國安局認為這事件當中有關聯性嗎?又或者是其實這個就是中國的灰色衝突的一個持續的上升其實是有步驟有計劃性的而國安局這裡有掌握一定的情資嗎?好這大概分兩個部分一個是整體中共對台灣的灰色地道\n\n10\n00:03:21,736 --> 00:03:23,096\n臺海周邊水域進行執法巡查的動作．加上偶爾包括這一次的\n\n11\n00:03:51,423 --> 00:03:51,583\n李卓人議員\n\n12\n00:04:06,620 --> 00:04:30,522\n整體的態勢判斷來講我們認為這確實不能排除是中共有系統有計劃的灰色地帶洗腦的活動這是第一部分那第二部分是針對個案的部分那針對個案的部分管局這邊我們會統合我們各個情報單位跟視同情報機關來收集相關不同的個案那以淡水這個個案來講因為這一次這個當事人這個嫌疑人他具有解放軍的背景\n\n13\n00:04:30,822 --> 00:04:54,127\n所以這部分我們會透過我們的國安系統來瞭解跟查查他這個解放軍背景在這一次快艇侵入事件的意涵還有背後有沒有中共操作的手法在裡面好從局長的回答就知道說這一切其實都在掌握之中但重點就在於在國安局的掌握之中訊息有沒有橫向的連結到包括我們現在講的海巡署或等等主席不好意思我要請海巡署對先海巡局長你先留步\n\n14\n00:05:00,612 --> 00:05:02,233\n我想這是本期一直以來的統計數字\n\n15\n00:05:07,654 --> 00:05:08,734\n中國的非法船隻不斷的就是親門套戶的狀況底下\n\n16\n00:05:37,420 --> 00:06:03,608\n對於這一次．直接有所謂的解放軍背景的人．直接划著小艇進入淡水河口．這樣的過程當中．難道說國安局的資料沒有給海巡嗎?報告委員．有關這部分的話．海巡署要20小時全天候在待命．在堅征海面目標．那這部分我們跟國安局等等相關情報單位．都平時都保持密切的聯繫\n\n17\n00:06:04,727 --> 00:06:24,740\n那麼怎麼會發現這個從發現到這個確定逮捕而且是發生了衝突之後中間的這個空白的50分鐘這到底彼此之間發生什麼樣的狀態不能說是因為這個我們的第一線的弟兄是從別的地方調過來所以不熟悉我相信這個絕對不是理由跟藉口\n\n18\n00:06:25,140 --> 00:06:43,107\n而是面對中國不斷的提升所謂灰色地帶的非法傳資直接越界進入家門這樣的狀況難道說我們沒有一個好的判斷的方式嗎?一定得要發生衝突或者是臨近的漁船或是我們本國的漁船來通報之後才會了解狀況嗎?\n\n19\n00:06:46,670 --> 00:07:00,028\n跟委員報告,這個案子我們事後來檢討評估在海軍的徵收系統完全是正常,絕對沒有漏接我們在陸海裡就發現因為當時海面上武器燒船隻我們第一線的雷達操作員\n\n20\n00:07:01,970 --> 00:07:19,983\n誤判為是進港的正常傳播他也有通報安檢所跟守望哨全程監控在11點10分靠碼頭之後就馬上逮捕當然這個案子具有高風險所以我們不僅加強教育訓練我們也引進各式各樣的徵收設備來用科技撫行\n\n21\n00:07:20,583 --> 00:07:41,146\n好,所以局長,我想齁,這個部分我想要了解的是,國安局回答得非常好,那麼對於整體的狀況也有掌握,但是橫向的連結跟聯繫的時候,當你們看到這樣的個案,未來會不會更積極主動彼此做一些聯繫呢?應該的,應該的,因為這部分我剛有跟陳冠廷委員有說明過,\n\n22\n00:07:41,727 --> 00:08:06,875\n國安會也有召開跨部會議在檢討這個個案到底還有沒有哪些可以測近的作為就這個個案來講像剛剛海巡署所說明的因為他的船身不大大概只有7公尺的小船那這種小船海巡署的雷達可以在6海里外就發現這個相關的漲收程度已經算是相當相當不錯當然船隻的噸位更大可以在更遠的水域就預先來警覺到他\n\n23\n00:08:07,355 --> 00:08:10,636\n其實本席希望的是橫向的聯繫當中如果以國安局為首的話要把它整體的把它組織起來因為就像我提到它其實不是一個6月9號的個案\n\n24\n00:08:55,194 --> 00:09:18,742\n本席稍微整理了一下這近10年來中國偷渡的人數當然現在都是比較是個位數字但是是不是因為我們的法規太輕了以入出境管理局的第74條可以懲處5年以下有期徒刑那一顆罰金50萬但是如果回到判例來看我就舉三個判例從2023年的這個中國盛信男子\n\n25\n00:09:21,823 --> 00:09:49,358\n有有到小金門一顆罰金可以一顆罰金但判4個月12萬台幣大概呢人民幣大概就2萬多不到3萬如果到2021年那麼這個大陸中國的福建省航行11小時到台灣海峽的話是判刑2個月一顆罰金才6萬那到2019年的富商之子偷渡來台灣根本就是不起訴直接遣返\n\n26\n00:09:49,798 --> 00:10:16,606\n本席質詢要問舊法務部來看這個會不會是讓中國如果要灰色侵擾這個代價很低阿是跟委員報告事實上我有稍微了解一下我們的檢察官在辦理相關案件的時候首先剛剛委員所關於追尋的是不是有橫向聯繫那地檢署跟調查局事實上跟國安都有相關的聯繫那剛剛在討論這個案子的我們的這個事檢國安專責檢察官也在積極偵辦中\n\n27\n00:10:18,607 --> 00:10:18,687\n林楚茵\n\n28\n00:10:37,193 --> 00:10:37,213\n好\n\n29\n00:10:52,386 --> 00:11:21,356\n除了修改法規之外其實本席把這樣的法條找出來的原因是說他其實是可以一顆罰金然後50萬以下但是你看所判出來的因為刑期很低所以說金額也就相對的偏低本席認為是不是要修法可以再考慮但是我認為在判刑上面如果他已經是敵對勢力意圖要侵擾台灣的安危的話其實在判刑上面應該要予以來加重這個是本席認為的\n\n30\n00:11:22,076 --> 00:11:23,496\n接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n689\t5553\t謝謝主席 主席有請中華電信請中華電信林副總\n11854\t20858\t副總長我們今天的題目當然是叫做我們的國家如何來運用民間的設備來收集相關的國安資訊不過剛剛前面有委員用連連看的方式來質疑說這個有個叫市方電信的現在是不是意圖不軌的來蒐集國家的情報或者是蒐集人民的個資我先請問一下市方電信跟中華電信之間是什麼樣的關係除了是子公司之外業務上面有往來嗎\n42397\t70255\t開麥克風不要緊張業務上面是什麼樣的關聯跟委員報告業務上就是我們在IDC租賃上那個在市場上共同去面向客戶取得客戶的這個IDC租賃業務還有那個電路的出租業務好所以說在業務上是合作關係還是市方跟中華電信來承租或是中華電信來跟市方承租\n71936\t88797\t市方有自己獨立的這個IDC機房的建置,中華電信也有自己的IDC機房,但是客戶的需求可能會有不同,所以我們是集團公司依照客戶的需求來提供不同類型或等級的IDC服務。\n89358\t103318\t言下之意就是一種策略聯謀好那我就明確的說中華電信有沒有資料放在市方電信裡面就是中華電信的客戶資料有存在市方的所謂的IDC裡面嗎?包委沒有\n105822\t134447\t如果沒有的話剛剛的委員質詢說有沒有可能洩漏情資的時候你不是應該要明確的說出來嗎?要把這樣的關係講清楚否則這種連連看沒有證據馬上就變成什麼傳出去那就好像變成是中華電信跟釋放電信一起來情搜或是收羅民間的資訊喔所以我再問一次中華電信的客戶資料有存在釋放電信的IDC裡頭嗎?\n135627\t141431\t主席有請國安局蔡局長我想其實今天對於民眾來說最重要的當然還是安全的維護的部分那麼其實我想要救教局長的部分就是其實是不是利用這個端午節假期中共所發動的灰色青老\n162586\t177756\t其實在持續當中本席想要把這個快艇的事件往前推其實在6月8號的時候中國的無人機其實到金門去發送傳單甚至於在抖音上面有直播主直接就說他們要直接來侵擾金門\n180578\t201236\t這從6月8號到6月9號兩個事件國安局怎麼看?國安局認為這事件當中有關聯性嗎?又或者是其實這個就是中國的灰色衝突的一個持續的上升其實是有步驟有計劃性的而國安局這裡有掌握一定的情資嗎?好這大概分兩個部分一個是整體中共對台灣的灰色地道\n201736\t203096\t臺海周邊水域進行執法巡查的動作．加上偶爾包括這一次的\n231423\t231583\t李卓人議員\n246620\t270522\t整體的態勢判斷來講我們認為這確實不能排除是中共有系統有計劃的灰色地帶洗腦的活動這是第一部分那第二部分是針對個案的部分那針對個案的部分管局這邊我們會統合我們各個情報單位跟視同情報機關來收集相關不同的個案那以淡水這個個案來講因為這一次這個當事人這個嫌疑人他具有解放軍的背景\n270822\t294127\t所以這部分我們會透過我們的國安系統來瞭解跟查查他這個解放軍背景在這一次快艇侵入事件的意涵還有背後有沒有中共操作的手法在裡面好從局長的回答就知道說這一切其實都在掌握之中但重點就在於在國安局的掌握之中訊息有沒有橫向的連結到包括我們現在講的海巡署或等等主席不好意思我要請海巡署對先海巡局長你先留步\n300612\t302233\t我想這是本期一直以來的統計數字\n307654\t308734\t中國的非法船隻不斷的就是親門套戶的狀況底下\n337420\t363608\t對於這一次．直接有所謂的解放軍背景的人．直接划著小艇進入淡水河口．這樣的過程當中．難道說國安局的資料沒有給海巡嗎?報告委員．有關這部分的話．海巡署要20小時全天候在待命．在堅征海面目標．那這部分我們跟國安局等等相關情報單位．都平時都保持密切的聯繫\n364727\t384740\t那麼怎麼會發現這個從發現到這個確定逮捕而且是發生了衝突之後中間的這個空白的50分鐘這到底彼此之間發生什麼樣的狀態不能說是因為這個我們的第一線的弟兄是從別的地方調過來所以不熟悉我相信這個絕對不是理由跟藉口\n385140\t403107\t而是面對中國不斷的提升所謂灰色地帶的非法傳資直接越界進入家門這樣的狀況難道說我們沒有一個好的判斷的方式嗎?一定得要發生衝突或者是臨近的漁船或是我們本國的漁船來通報之後才會了解狀況嗎?\n406670\t420028\t跟委員報告,這個案子我們事後來檢討評估在海軍的徵收系統完全是正常,絕對沒有漏接我們在陸海裡就發現因為當時海面上武器燒船隻我們第一線的雷達操作員\n421970\t439983\t誤判為是進港的正常傳播他也有通報安檢所跟守望哨全程監控在11點10分靠碼頭之後就馬上逮捕當然這個案子具有高風險所以我們不僅加強教育訓練我們也引進各式各樣的徵收設備來用科技撫行\n440583\t461146\t好,所以局長,我想齁,這個部分我想要了解的是,國安局回答得非常好,那麼對於整體的狀況也有掌握,但是橫向的連結跟聯繫的時候,當你們看到這樣的個案,未來會不會更積極主動彼此做一些聯繫呢?應該的,應該的,因為這部分我剛有跟陳冠廷委員有說明過,\n461727\t486875\t國安會也有召開跨部會議在檢討這個個案到底還有沒有哪些可以測近的作為就這個個案來講像剛剛海巡署所說明的因為他的船身不大大概只有7公尺的小船那這種小船海巡署的雷達可以在6海里外就發現這個相關的漲收程度已經算是相當相當不錯當然船隻的噸位更大可以在更遠的水域就預先來警覺到他\n487355\t490636\t其實本席希望的是橫向的聯繫當中如果以國安局為首的話要把它整體的把它組織起來因為就像我提到它其實不是一個6月9號的個案\n511664\t531203\t請偵測\n535194\t558742\t本席稍微整理了一下這近10年來中國偷渡的人數當然現在都是比較是個位數字但是是不是因為我們的法規太輕了以入出境管理局的第74條可以懲處5年以下有期徒刑那一顆罰金50萬但是如果回到判例來看我就舉三個判例從2023年的這個中國盛信男子\n561823\t589358\t有有到小金門一顆罰金可以一顆罰金但判4個月12萬台幣大概呢人民幣大概就2萬多不到3萬如果到2021年那麼這個大陸中國的福建省航行11小時到台灣海峽的話是判刑2個月一顆罰金才6萬那到2019年的富商之子偷渡來台灣根本就是不起訴直接遣返\n589798\t616606\t本席質詢要問舊法務部來看這個會不會是讓中國如果要灰色侵擾這個代價很低阿是跟委員報告事實上我有稍微了解一下我們的檢察官在辦理相關案件的時候首先剛剛委員所關於追尋的是不是有橫向聯繫那地檢署跟調查局事實上跟國安都有相關的聯繫那剛剛在討論這個案子的我們的這個事檢國安專責檢察官也在積極偵辦中\n618607\t618687\t林楚茵\n637193\t637213\t好\n652386\t681356\t除了修改法規之外其實本席把這樣的法條找出來的原因是說他其實是可以一顆罰金然後50萬以下但是你看所判出來的因為刑期很低所以說金額也就相對的偏低本席認為是不是要修法可以再考慮但是我認為在判刑上面如果他已經是敵對勢力意圖要侵擾台灣的安危的話其實在判刑上面應該要予以來加重這個是本席認為的\n682076\t683496\t接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢\n","txt":"謝謝主席 主席有請中華電信請中華電信林副總\n副總長我們今天的題目當然是叫做我們的國家如何來運用民間的設備來收集相關的國安資訊不過剛剛前面有委員用連連看的方式來質疑說這個有個叫市方電信的現在是不是意圖不軌的來蒐集國家的情報或者是蒐集人民的個資我先請問一下市方電信跟中華電信之間是什麼樣的關係除了是子公司之外業務上面有往來嗎\n開麥克風不要緊張業務上面是什麼樣的關聯跟委員報告業務上就是我們在IDC租賃上那個在市場上共同去面向客戶取得客戶的這個IDC租賃業務還有那個電路的出租業務好所以說在業務上是合作關係還是市方跟中華電信來承租或是中華電信來跟市方承租\n市方有自己獨立的這個IDC機房的建置,中華電信也有自己的IDC機房,但是客戶的需求可能會有不同,所以我們是集團公司依照客戶的需求來提供不同類型或等級的IDC服務。\n言下之意就是一種策略聯謀好那我就明確的說中華電信有沒有資料放在市方電信裡面就是中華電信的客戶資料有存在市方的所謂的IDC裡面嗎?包委沒有\n如果沒有的話剛剛的委員質詢說有沒有可能洩漏情資的時候你不是應該要明確的說出來嗎?要把這樣的關係講清楚否則這種連連看沒有證據馬上就變成什麼傳出去那就好像變成是中華電信跟釋放電信一起來情搜或是收羅民間的資訊喔所以我再問一次中華電信的客戶資料有存在釋放電信的IDC裡頭嗎?\n主席有請國安局蔡局長我想其實今天對於民眾來說最重要的當然還是安全的維護的部分那麼其實我想要救教局長的部分就是其實是不是利用這個端午節假期中共所發動的灰色青老\n其實在持續當中本席想要把這個快艇的事件往前推其實在6月8號的時候中國的無人機其實到金門去發送傳單甚至於在抖音上面有直播主直接就說他們要直接來侵擾金門\n這從6月8號到6月9號兩個事件國安局怎麼看?國安局認為這事件當中有關聯性嗎?又或者是其實這個就是中國的灰色衝突的一個持續的上升其實是有步驟有計劃性的而國安局這裡有掌握一定的情資嗎?好這大概分兩個部分一個是整體中共對台灣的灰色地道\n臺海周邊水域進行執法巡查的動作．加上偶爾包括這一次的\n李卓人議員\n整體的態勢判斷來講我們認為這確實不能排除是中共有系統有計劃的灰色地帶洗腦的活動這是第一部分那第二部分是針對個案的部分那針對個案的部分管局這邊我們會統合我們各個情報單位跟視同情報機關來收集相關不同的個案那以淡水這個個案來講因為這一次這個當事人這個嫌疑人他具有解放軍的背景\n所以這部分我們會透過我們的國安系統來瞭解跟查查他這個解放軍背景在這一次快艇侵入事件的意涵還有背後有沒有中共操作的手法在裡面好從局長的回答就知道說這一切其實都在掌握之中但重點就在於在國安局的掌握之中訊息有沒有橫向的連結到包括我們現在講的海巡署或等等主席不好意思我要請海巡署對先海巡局長你先留步\n我想這是本期一直以來的統計數字\n中國的非法船隻不斷的就是親門套戶的狀況底下\n對於這一次．直接有所謂的解放軍背景的人．直接划著小艇進入淡水河口．這樣的過程當中．難道說國安局的資料沒有給海巡嗎?報告委員．有關這部分的話．海巡署要20小時全天候在待命．在堅征海面目標．那這部分我們跟國安局等等相關情報單位．都平時都保持密切的聯繫\n那麼怎麼會發現這個從發現到這個確定逮捕而且是發生了衝突之後中間的這個空白的50分鐘這到底彼此之間發生什麼樣的狀態不能說是因為這個我們的第一線的弟兄是從別的地方調過來所以不熟悉我相信這個絕對不是理由跟藉口\n而是面對中國不斷的提升所謂灰色地帶的非法傳資直接越界進入家門這樣的狀況難道說我們沒有一個好的判斷的方式嗎?一定得要發生衝突或者是臨近的漁船或是我們本國的漁船來通報之後才會了解狀況嗎?\n跟委員報告,這個案子我們事後來檢討評估在海軍的徵收系統完全是正常,絕對沒有漏接我們在陸海裡就發現因為當時海面上武器燒船隻我們第一線的雷達操作員\n誤判為是進港的正常傳播他也有通報安檢所跟守望哨全程監控在11點10分靠碼頭之後就馬上逮捕當然這個案子具有高風險所以我們不僅加強教育訓練我們也引進各式各樣的徵收設備來用科技撫行\n好,所以局長,我想齁,這個部分我想要了解的是,國安局回答得非常好,那麼對於整體的狀況也有掌握,但是橫向的連結跟聯繫的時候,當你們看到這樣的個案,未來會不會更積極主動彼此做一些聯繫呢?應該的,應該的,因為這部分我剛有跟陳冠廷委員有說明過,\n國安會也有召開跨部會議在檢討這個個案到底還有沒有哪些可以測近的作為就這個個案來講像剛剛海巡署所說明的因為他的船身不大大概只有7公尺的小船那這種小船海巡署的雷達可以在6海里外就發現這個相關的漲收程度已經算是相當相當不錯當然船隻的噸位更大可以在更遠的水域就預先來警覺到他\n其實本席希望的是橫向的聯繫當中如果以國安局為首的話要把它整體的把它組織起來因為就像我提到它其實不是一個6月9號的個案\n請偵測\n本席稍微整理了一下這近10年來中國偷渡的人數當然現在都是比較是個位數字但是是不是因為我們的法規太輕了以入出境管理局的第74條可以懲處5年以下有期徒刑那一顆罰金50萬但是如果回到判例來看我就舉三個判例從2023年的這個中國盛信男子\n有有到小金門一顆罰金可以一顆罰金但判4個月12萬台幣大概呢人民幣大概就2萬多不到3萬如果到2021年那麼這個大陸中國的福建省航行11小時到台灣海峽的話是判刑2個月一顆罰金才6萬那到2019年的富商之子偷渡來台灣根本就是不起訴直接遣返\n本席質詢要問舊法務部來看這個會不會是讓中國如果要灰色侵擾這個代價很低阿是跟委員報告事實上我有稍微了解一下我們的檢察官在辦理相關案件的時候首先剛剛委員所關於追尋的是不是有橫向聯繫那地檢署跟調查局事實上跟國安都有相關的聯繫那剛剛在討論這個案子的我們的這個事檢國安專責檢察官也在積極偵辦中\n林楚茵\n好\n除了修改法規之外其實本席把這樣的法條找出來的原因是說他其實是可以一顆罰金然後50萬以下但是你看所判出來的因為刑期很低所以說金額也就相對的偏低本席認為是不是要修法可以再考慮但是我認為在判刑上面如果他已經是敵對勢力意圖要侵擾台灣的安危的話其實在判刑上面應該要予以來加重這個是本席認為的\n接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.689 --> 00:05.553\n謝謝主席主席有請中華電信請中華電信林副總\n\n00:11.854 --> 00:20.858\n副總長我們今天的題目當然是叫做我們的國家如何來運用民間的設備來收集相關的國安資訊不過剛剛前面有委員用連連看的方式來質疑說這個有個叫市方電信的現在是不是意圖不軌的來蒐集國家的情報或者是蒐集人民的個資我先請問一下市方電信跟中華電信之間是什麼樣的關係除了是子公司之外業務上面有往來嗎\n\n00:42.397 --> 01:10.255\n開麥克風不要緊張業務上面是什麼樣的關聯跟委員報告業務上就是我們在IDC租賃上那個在市場上共同去面向客戶取得客戶的這個IDC租賃業務還有那個電路的出租業務好所以說在業務上是合作關係還是市方跟中華電信來承租或是中華電信來跟市方承租\n\n01:11.936 --> 01:28.797\n市方有自己獨立的這個IDC機房的建置,中華電信也有自己的IDC機房,但是客戶的需求可能會有不同,所以我們是集團公司依照客戶的需求來提供不同類型或等級的IDC服務。\n\n01:29.358 --> 01:43.318\n言下之意就是一種策略聯謀好那我就明確的說中華電信有沒有資料放在市方電信裡面就是中華電信的客戶資料有存在市方的所謂的IDC裡面嗎?包委沒有\n\n01:45.822 --> 02:14.447\n如果沒有的話剛剛的委員質詢說有沒有可能洩漏情資的時候你不是應該要明確的說出來嗎?要把這樣的關係講清楚否則這種連連看沒有證據馬上就變成什麼傳出去那就好像變成是中華電信跟釋放電信一起來情搜或是收羅民間的資訊喔所以我再問一次中華電信的客戶資料有存在釋放電信的IDC裡頭嗎?\n\n02:15.627 --> 02:21.431\n主席有請國安局蔡局長我想其實今天對於民眾來說最重要的當然還是安全的維護的部分那麼其實我想要救教局長的部分就是其實是不是利用這個端午節假期中共所發動的灰色青老\n\n02:42.586 --> 02:57.756\n其實在持續當中本席想要把這個快艇的事件往前推其實在6月8號的時候中國的無人機其實到金門去發送傳單甚至於在抖音上面有直播主直接就說他們要直接來侵擾金門\n\n03:00.578 --> 03:21.236\n這從6月8號到6月9號兩個事件國安局怎麼看?國安局認為這事件當中有關聯性嗎?又或者是其實這個就是中國的灰色衝突的一個持續的上升其實是有步驟有計劃性的而國安局這裡有掌握一定的情資嗎?好這大概分兩個部分一個是整體中共對台灣的灰色地道\n\n03:21.736 --> 03:23.096\n臺海周邊水域進行執法巡查的動作．加上偶爾包括這一次的\n\n03:51.423 --> 03:51.583\n李卓人議員\n\n04:06.620 --> 04:30.522\n整體的態勢判斷來講我們認為這確實不能排除是中共有系統有計劃的灰色地帶洗腦的活動這是第一部分那第二部分是針對個案的部分那針對個案的部分管局這邊我們會統合我們各個情報單位跟視同情報機關來收集相關不同的個案那以淡水這個個案來講因為這一次這個當事人這個嫌疑人他具有解放軍的背景\n\n04:30.822 --> 04:54.127\n所以這部分我們會透過我們的國安系統來瞭解跟查查他這個解放軍背景在這一次快艇侵入事件的意涵還有背後有沒有中共操作的手法在裡面好從局長的回答就知道說這一切其實都在掌握之中但重點就在於在國安局的掌握之中訊息有沒有橫向的連結到包括我們現在講的海巡署或等等主席不好意思我要請海巡署對先海巡局長你先留步\n\n05:00.612 --> 05:02.233\n我想這是本期一直以來的統計數字\n\n05:07.654 --> 05:08.734\n中國的非法船隻不斷的就是親門套戶的狀況底下\n\n05:37.420 --> 06:03.608\n對於這一次．直接有所謂的解放軍背景的人．直接划著小艇進入淡水河口．這樣的過程當中．難道說國安局的資料沒有給海巡嗎?報告委員．有關這部分的話．海巡署要20小時全天候在待命．在堅征海面目標．那這部分我們跟國安局等等相關情報單位．都平時都保持密切的聯繫\n\n06:04.727 --> 06:24.740\n那麼怎麼會發現這個從發現到這個確定逮捕而且是發生了衝突之後中間的這個空白的50分鐘這到底彼此之間發生什麼樣的狀態不能說是因為這個我們的第一線的弟兄是從別的地方調過來所以不熟悉我相信這個絕對不是理由跟藉口\n\n06:25.140 --> 06:43.107\n而是面對中國不斷的提升所謂灰色地帶的非法傳資直接越界進入家門這樣的狀況難道說我們沒有一個好的判斷的方式嗎?一定得要發生衝突或者是臨近的漁船或是我們本國的漁船來通報之後才會了解狀況嗎?\n\n06:46.670 --> 07:00.028\n跟委員報告,這個案子我們事後來檢討評估在海軍的徵收系統完全是正常,絕對沒有漏接我們在陸海裡就發現因為當時海面上武器燒船隻我們第一線的雷達操作員\n\n07:01.970 --> 07:19.983\n誤判為是進港的正常傳播他也有通報安檢所跟守望哨全程監控在11點10分靠碼頭之後就馬上逮捕當然這個案子具有高風險所以我們不僅加強教育訓練我們也引進各式各樣的徵收設備來用科技撫行\n\n07:20.583 --> 07:41.146\n好,所以局長,我想齁,這個部分我想要了解的是,國安局回答得非常好,那麼對於整體的狀況也有掌握,但是橫向的連結跟聯繫的時候,當你們看到這樣的個案,未來會不會更積極主動彼此做一些聯繫呢?應該的,應該的,因為這部分我剛有跟陳冠廷委員有說明過,\n\n07:41.727 --> 08:06.875\n國安會也有召開跨部會議在檢討這個個案到底還有沒有哪些可以測近的作為就這個個案來講像剛剛海巡署所說明的因為他的船身不大大概只有7公尺的小船那這種小船海巡署的雷達可以在6海里外就發現這個相關的漲收程度已經算是相當相當不錯當然船隻的噸位更大可以在更遠的水域就預先來警覺到他\n\n08:07.355 --> 08:10.636\n其實本席希望的是橫向的聯繫當中如果以國安局為首的話要把它整體的把它組織起來因為就像我提到它其實不是一個6月9號的個案\n\n08:55.194 --> 09:18.742\n本席稍微整理了一下這近10年來中國偷渡的人數當然現在都是比較是個位數字但是是不是因為我們的法規太輕了以入出境管理局的第74條可以懲處5年以下有期徒刑那一顆罰金50萬但是如果回到判例來看我就舉三個判例從2023年的這個中國盛信男子\n\n09:21.823 --> 09:49.358\n有有到小金門一顆罰金可以一顆罰金但判4個月12萬台幣大概呢人民幣大概就2萬多不到3萬如果到2021年那麼這個大陸中國的福建省航行11小時到台灣海峽的話是判刑2個月一顆罰金才6萬那到2019年的富商之子偷渡來台灣根本就是不起訴直接遣返\n\n09:49.798 --> 10:16.606\n本席質詢要問舊法務部來看這個會不會是讓中國如果要灰色侵擾這個代價很低阿是跟委員報告事實上我有稍微了解一下我們的檢察官在辦理相關案件的時候首先剛剛委員所關於追尋的是不是有橫向聯繫那地檢署跟調查局事實上跟國安都有相關的聯繫那剛剛在討論這個案子的我們的這個事檢國安專責檢察官也在積極偵辦中\n\n10:18.607 --> 10:18.687\n林楚茵\n\n10:37.193 --> 10:37.213\n好\n\n10:52.386 --> 11:21.356\n除了修改法規之外其實本席把這樣的法條找出來的原因是說他其實是可以一顆罰金然後50萬以下但是你看所判出來的因為刑期很低所以說金額也就相對的偏低本席認為是不是要修法可以再考慮但是我認為在判刑上面如果他已經是敵對勢力意圖要侵擾台灣的安危的話其實在判刑上面應該要予以來加重這個是本席認為的\n\n11:22.076 --> 11:23.496\n接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.689,"end":5.553,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請中華電信請中華電信林副總"},{"start":11.854,"end":20.858,"text":"副總長我們今天的題目當然是叫做我們的國家如何來運用民間的設備來收集相關的國安資訊不過剛剛前面有委員用連連看的方式來質疑說這個有個叫市方電信的現在是不是意圖不軌的來蒐集國家的情報或者是蒐集人民的個資我先請問一下市方電信跟中華電信之間是什麼樣的關係除了是子公司之外業務上面有往來嗎"},{"start":42.397,"end":70.255,"text":"開麥克風不要緊張業務上面是什麼樣的關聯跟委員報告業務上就是我們在IDC租賃上那個在市場上共同去面向客戶取得客戶的這個IDC租賃業務還有那個電路的出租業務好所以說在業務上是合作關係還是市方跟中華電信來承租或是中華電信來跟市方承租"},{"start":71.936,"end":88.797,"text":"市方有自己獨立的這個IDC機房的建置,中華電信也有自己的IDC機房,但是客戶的需求可能會有不同,所以我們是集團公司依照客戶的需求來提供不同類型或等級的IDC服務。"},{"start":89.358,"end":103.318,"text":"言下之意就是一種策略聯謀好那我就明確的說中華電信有沒有資料放在市方電信裡面就是中華電信的客戶資料有存在市方的所謂的IDC裡面嗎?包委沒有"},{"start":105.822,"end":134.447,"text":"如果沒有的話剛剛的委員質詢說有沒有可能洩漏情資的時候你不是應該要明確的說出來嗎?要把這樣的關係講清楚否則這種連連看沒有證據馬上就變成什麼傳出去那就好像變成是中華電信跟釋放電信一起來情搜或是收羅民間的資訊喔所以我再問一次中華電信的客戶資料有存在釋放電信的IDC裡頭嗎?"},{"start":135.627,"end":141.431,"text":"主席有請國安局蔡局長我想其實今天對於民眾來說最重要的當然還是安全的維護的部分那麼其實我想要救教局長的部分就是其實是不是利用這個端午節假期中共所發動的灰色青老"},{"start":162.586,"end":177.756,"text":"其實在持續當中本席想要把這個快艇的事件往前推其實在6月8號的時候中國的無人機其實到金門去發送傳單甚至於在抖音上面有直播主直接就說他們要直接來侵擾金門"},{"start":180.578,"end":201.236,"text":"這從6月8號到6月9號兩個事件國安局怎麼看?國安局認為這事件當中有關聯性嗎?又或者是其實這個就是中國的灰色衝突的一個持續的上升其實是有步驟有計劃性的而國安局這裡有掌握一定的情資嗎?好這大概分兩個部分一個是整體中共對台灣的灰色地道"},{"start":201.736,"end":203.096,"text":"臺海周邊水域進行執法巡查的動作．加上偶爾包括這一次的"},{"start":231.423,"end":231.583,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":246.62,"end":270.522,"text":"整體的態勢判斷來講我們認為這確實不能排除是中共有系統有計劃的灰色地帶洗腦的活動這是第一部分那第二部分是針對個案的部分那針對個案的部分管局這邊我們會統合我們各個情報單位跟視同情報機關來收集相關不同的個案那以淡水這個個案來講因為這一次這個當事人這個嫌疑人他具有解放軍的背景"},{"start":270.822,"end":294.127,"text":"所以這部分我們會透過我們的國安系統來瞭解跟查查他這個解放軍背景在這一次快艇侵入事件的意涵還有背後有沒有中共操作的手法在裡面好從局長的回答就知道說這一切其實都在掌握之中但重點就在於在國安局的掌握之中訊息有沒有橫向的連結到包括我們現在講的海巡署或等等主席不好意思我要請海巡署對先海巡局長你先留步"},{"start":300.612,"end":302.233,"text":"我想這是本期一直以來的統計數字"},{"start":307.654,"end":308.734,"text":"中國的非法船隻不斷的就是親門套戶的狀況底下"},{"start":337.42,"end":363.608,"text":"對於這一次．直接有所謂的解放軍背景的人．直接划著小艇進入淡水河口．這樣的過程當中．難道說國安局的資料沒有給海巡嗎?報告委員．有關這部分的話．海巡署要20小時全天候在待命．在堅征海面目標．那這部分我們跟國安局等等相關情報單位．都平時都保持密切的聯繫"},{"start":364.727,"end":384.74,"text":"那麼怎麼會發現這個從發現到這個確定逮捕而且是發生了衝突之後中間的這個空白的50分鐘這到底彼此之間發生什麼樣的狀態不能說是因為這個我們的第一線的弟兄是從別的地方調過來所以不熟悉我相信這個絕對不是理由跟藉口"},{"start":385.14,"end":403.107,"text":"而是面對中國不斷的提升所謂灰色地帶的非法傳資直接越界進入家門這樣的狀況難道說我們沒有一個好的判斷的方式嗎?一定得要發生衝突或者是臨近的漁船或是我們本國的漁船來通報之後才會了解狀況嗎?"},{"start":406.67,"end":420.028,"text":"跟委員報告,這個案子我們事後來檢討評估在海軍的徵收系統完全是正常,絕對沒有漏接我們在陸海裡就發現因為當時海面上武器燒船隻我們第一線的雷達操作員"},{"start":421.97,"end":439.983,"text":"誤判為是進港的正常傳播他也有通報安檢所跟守望哨全程監控在11點10分靠碼頭之後就馬上逮捕當然這個案子具有高風險所以我們不僅加強教育訓練我們也引進各式各樣的徵收設備來用科技撫行"},{"start":440.583,"end":461.146,"text":"好,所以局長,我想齁,這個部分我想要了解的是,國安局回答得非常好,那麼對於整體的狀況也有掌握,但是橫向的連結跟聯繫的時候,當你們看到這樣的個案,未來會不會更積極主動彼此做一些聯繫呢?應該的,應該的,因為這部分我剛有跟陳冠廷委員有說明過,"},{"start":461.727,"end":486.875,"text":"國安會也有召開跨部會議在檢討這個個案到底還有沒有哪些可以測近的作為就這個個案來講像剛剛海巡署所說明的因為他的船身不大大概只有7公尺的小船那這種小船海巡署的雷達可以在6海里外就發現這個相關的漲收程度已經算是相當相當不錯當然船隻的噸位更大可以在更遠的水域就預先來警覺到他"},{"start":487.355,"end":490.636,"text":"其實本席希望的是橫向的聯繫當中如果以國安局為首的話要把它整體的把它組織起來因為就像我提到它其實不是一個6月9號的個案"},{"start":511.664,"end":531.203,"text":"請偵測"},{"start":535.194,"end":558.742,"text":"本席稍微整理了一下這近10年來中國偷渡的人數當然現在都是比較是個位數字但是是不是因為我們的法規太輕了以入出境管理局的第74條可以懲處5年以下有期徒刑那一顆罰金50萬但是如果回到判例來看我就舉三個判例從2023年的這個中國盛信男子"},{"start":561.823,"end":589.358,"text":"有有到小金門一顆罰金可以一顆罰金但判4個月12萬台幣大概呢人民幣大概就2萬多不到3萬如果到2021年那麼這個大陸中國的福建省航行11小時到台灣海峽的話是判刑2個月一顆罰金才6萬那到2019年的富商之子偷渡來台灣根本就是不起訴直接遣返"},{"start":589.798,"end":616.606,"text":"本席質詢要問舊法務部來看這個會不會是讓中國如果要灰色侵擾這個代價很低阿是跟委員報告事實上我有稍微了解一下我們的檢察官在辦理相關案件的時候首先剛剛委員所關於追尋的是不是有橫向聯繫那地檢署跟調查局事實上跟國安都有相關的聯繫那剛剛在討論這個案子的我們的這個事檢國安專責檢察官也在積極偵辦中"},{"start":618.607,"end":618.687,"text":"林楚茵"},{"start":637.193,"end":637.213,"text":"好"},{"start":652.386,"end":681.356,"text":"除了修改法規之外其實本席把這樣的法條找出來的原因是說他其實是可以一顆罰金然後50萬以下但是你看所判出來的因為刑期很低所以說金額也就相對的偏低本席認為是不是要修法可以再考慮但是我認為在判刑上面如果他已經是敵對勢力意圖要侵擾台灣的安危的話其實在判刑上面應該要予以來加重這個是本席認為的"},{"start":682.076,"end":683.496,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢"}]}}}}