{"id":153814,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153814","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819b6592b437aae1f7259a48fe1a1d57c38a04e565a7cce14eff832914f79f155dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:53:44 - 10:04:14","影片長度":"00:10:30","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T09:53:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:04:14+08:00","duration":630,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":252,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（9時53分）有請海巡署謝副署長。"],["主席：請海巡署謝副署長。"],["黃委員仁：現在敏感的地方就是衝到淡水的艇艦，我想請教一下，今天早上我們的新竹艦在夏威夷停泊，它是進行什麼樣的任務？第二個，臺灣和美國現在在海巡的議題上進行什麼樣的合作？你來回答一下好不好？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，新竹艦正在執行今年度第一航次的太平洋遠洋公海巡護任務，這是例行的任務，現在我們四千噸的新竹艦續航能力更遠，而且它有裝備醫療專業人員跟設備，所以我們指定調派它來執行中西太平洋遠洋巡護任務。"],["黃委員仁：好，那海巡有任何的觀摩或者扮演什麼樣的角色？"],["謝副署長慶欽：除了公海巡護我們這邊可以報告以外，相關細節就不方便再對外公開報告，我們是不是會後再跟委員報告？"],["黃委員仁：好，那細節的部分你再跟我報告。","另外是有關於NCC如何確認三大電信的部分，民進黨政策會執行長王義川於5月27號在三立政論節目上表示，其使用的手機信號定位分析青鳥行動及近期陳抗活動引發政府或執政黨監控人民的疑慮，NCC在5月30號發函國內三大電信啟動調查，然後NCC在5月31號以書面提出調查結果報告，調查報告的結論是：經確認三大電信不曾提供參與青鳥行動群眾任何資訊給其他單位，業者也說並無任何私人企業、政府機關或特定黨籍人士接洽或請求相關人流資訊。這個疑慮非常的大，請你來回答一下。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：跟委員報告，其實我們昨天還再找了三大電信公司來，除了要求它們的個資跟資安都要符合ISO的規定之外，同時我們也要求電信業者要儘快導入去識別化的認證標準，所以我們是持續在做，優先請電信業者一定要導入去識別化。"],["黃委員仁：當初你們提出書面報告的時候，只有5月30日區區一天的時間就有結論的書面報告，這是一個非常荒唐而唐突的結論，就說沒有任何的問題所在，你們這樣的回答是不是在欺騙國人？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，其實我們真的有請三大電信業者到會裡面來做行政調查，我們不只問了它有沒有……"],["黃委員仁：現在的問題癥結點在哪裡？就只有5月30號那一天的時間裡面，然後你們在5月31號就作出書面的結論，這樣會不會讓人家覺得你們的報告根本就是在護航王義川？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，這個部分我們持續在調查，5月30號當天我們也請三大電信業者到會來陳述它們的意見，同時也表達在6月3號大院交通委員會的報告上面，我們會持續再精進，也要求電信事業要做好個資、資安、去識別化的標準作業流程。"],["黃委員仁：因為你們已經受到國人質疑NCC的調查結果到底有沒有外漏這一些個資的問題，所以你們現在才陸陸續續在調查，5月30號你們應該要審慎調查之後，再提出書面結論報告不是嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：關於委員的指導意見，我們會持續來精進，我們會持續要求電信事業加強個資、資安，還有去識別化等等的……"],["黃委員仁：本席在這邊要特別提醒NCC應該要調查電信業者是否有違反規定的情事存在，這樣的調查除了書面調查外，應該包含資料調閱和更多複雜的調查方式，如果NCC真的有認真調查，本席無法相信可以短短一天內就得到答案，NCC如果只是發函或者是請業者說明，然後把業者的回復當作調查結果，根本就是應付了事。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，立法院交通委員會有一個決議，在7月15號之前我們要去調查清楚，我們會邀請學者、專家或第三方公正的驗證單位去調查瞭解三大電信業者……"],["黃委員仁：針對你們這一些調查結果，無論如何都給本委員會每一位立法委員好不好？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：好。"],["黃委員仁：接下來有請國安局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，委員好。"],["黃委員仁：局長好。有關於第五縱隊的狀況，我想請教一下，所謂的第五縱隊是指潛伏在內部進行破壞，與敵方裡應外合、不擇手段，意圖顛覆、破壞國家團結的團體，你知不知道所謂的第五縱隊目前有多少人？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想第五縱隊是一個比較籠統的概念，就國安單位在查察相關的國安案件，我們最主要還是要依循相關法律的依據或基礎，以此來看相關的共諜有沒有違反我們的法律要件。就這部分來講，我們從去年到現在已經偵辦81件共諜案，特別重要的是其中有39件都遭到檢方起訴，比起往年的偵辦情形，確實可以看到案件越來越多，這也代表中國在臺灣內部的共諜活動似乎越來越猖獗。"],["黃委員仁：這樣的話，你等於又反駁了沈伯洋委員所提的第五縱隊，因為你說這是籠統的結合。目前來講，中共潛伏在臺的第五縱隊越來越多，在臺絕對是五千人以上，戰時高風險族群高達十萬人，更不一定是中國人，臺灣人也可以被中共威脅或做其他事情，政府應該要進行管控，所謂的高風險族群裡面就包含立委、學者、宮廟、幫派人士，請問高風險族群是屬於潛在的第五縱隊嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛跟委員說明的是，第五縱隊它並不是一個法律的概念，可能是在學術或政策討論上所使用的用語，但是就國安單位來講，我們處理共諜案必須依照法律的基礎跟要件來辦理，這是第一點澄清跟說明。"],["黃委員仁：那有沒有存在？在十年前有沒有存在第五縱隊？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，第二個部分是對於各界包括立法委員在關切相關的共諜活動以及在境內的滲透活動，我們都非常的感謝，因為這可以喚醒國人相關的國安知覺。委員有提到十年前媒體提及第五縱隊相關的數字，我還原一下當時的狀況。當時的討論比較像是對岸人士到臺灣來有逾期的居留或停留，然後行方不明，這些數字可能有數千人。但是這幾年因為疫情的關係以及兩岸的交流比較放緩，在此跟委員報告到目前為止最新的數字，這也是昨天再跟移民署確認過的，對岸人士來到臺灣，然後行方不明、逾期停留的是1,388人，這是統計到4月底為止的數字。"],["黃委員仁：好，像這樣的狀況，在沒有具體事證的情況之下，不應該影射他人賣臺或是為中共同路人，以免弄得人心惶惶、社會不安，我想這會破壞國家團結，所以不應該把第五縱隊擴大解釋，以上。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，相關的討論我們都尊重委員的不同看法，但數字的部分，我剛剛是用法律案件的呈現來讓委員瞭解實際的狀況，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員仁：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：下一位請馬文君委員質詢，馬委員請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"153814","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153814","tool":"pyannote","id":"153814-pyannote"},"job_id":"PBRLJ5DO27WQDWfg","queued_at":"2024-06-12 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\"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 612.739, \"end\": 612.879, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"君\", \"start\": 612.879, \"end\": 612.899, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,369 --> 00:00:19,480\n謝副署長秦海巡署謝副署長現在敏感的地方就是因為淡水的一個衝到我們淡水這個地方的一些那個前那個什麼停建那我想請教一下\n\n2\n00:00:21,055 --> 00:00:47,924\n今天早上今天早上我們在發現我們新竹艦在夏威夷發現在那個地方停泊那它進行什麼樣的一個任務第二個台灣和美國現在的一個海型的議題上進行什麼樣的一個合作什麼樣的一個合作你來回答一下好不好\n\n3\n00:00:49,022 --> 00:01:13,016\n報告委員,新竹艦正在執行今年度的第一航側的太平洋遠洋公海巡護任務這是例行的任務現在我們4000噸的新竹艦,它續航能力更遠而且它有裝備醫療專業人員跟設備所以我們指定調派它來執行中西太平洋遠洋巡護任務\n\n4\n00:01:16,158 --> 00:01:38,529\n海巡有任務的任何的一個觀摩或是參加什麼樣的一個角色?他扮演的是什麼樣的一個角色?有關於相關的細節的話,除了公開詢問的話我們這邊可以報告以外,那有關相關的細節的話就不方便在對外公開報告,我們是會後跟委員報告。好,那你細節的部分再跟我報告,好。\n\n5\n00:01:39,534 --> 00:01:49,641\n那另外是有關於NCC如何確認的三大電信的這個部分我要請教\n\n6\n00:01:51,124 --> 00:02:13,739\n那最近民進黨這個政策會的執行長王逸川在5月27號的時候在三立政論節目上表示其使用的手機、信號、定位分析、清雕行動及近期成抗的活動引發政府或執政黨的監控人民的一個餘力\n\n7\n00:02:16,821 --> 00:02:23,443\nNCC在5月30號發函國內三大電信啟動調查結果NCC在5月31號調查以書面的報告調查結果那認為就是這個調查結果的結論\n\n8\n00:02:37,432 --> 00:03:03,182\n是經確認三大電信部層提供清了行動群眾任何這個資訊給其他單位業者也並無任何私人的一個企業政府機關或特定的黨籍人士接洽或請求相關的人流資訊那你來回答一下這個餘力非常的大\n\n9\n00:03:05,413 --> 00:03:31,942\n跟委員報告其實我們昨天還在找了那個三大電信公司來除了要求他們的個資跟資安都要符合那個ISO的規定之外另外我們也要求電信業者要盡快的導入那個氣勢別化的認證的標準所以說我們持續在做要優先請電信業者一定要去導入氣勢別化\n\n10\n00:03:33,323 --> 00:03:41,257\n當初你們在書面報告的時候在5月30號只有區區一天的時間你就有一個結論的一個書面報告\n\n11\n00:03:42,864 --> 00:04:08,050\n那這個是一個非常荒唐而且也是一個唐突的一個決定說我們沒有這個沒有任何的一個問題所在這樣的你們的回答是欺騙民眾還是欺騙國人報委員其實我們是真的有請三大電視業者到會裡面來做行政調查我們不只問了說他有沒有現在問題癥結點在哪裡就是5月30號\n\n12\n00:04:12,651 --> 00:04:29,037\n那就一天的時間裡面你5月31號就是一個書面的這個做出一個結論這樣會不會覺得你們這個報告根本就是在富航王一川\n\n13\n00:04:30,058 --> 00:04:33,561\n報委員這個部分我們持續在調查我們只是把5月30號當天我們請三大電信業者到會來陳述他們陳述的意見表達在我們6月3號在大宴交通委員會的報告上面那我們會持續在精進也要求電信事業要去做好\n\n14\n00:04:52,919 --> 00:05:10,524\n各自資安還有那個氣勢變化的整個標準的作業流程因為你們已經受到國人的質疑NCC到底調查結果有沒有外露這一些各自的問題所以你們現在才陸陸續續的調查那為什麼你們當時5月30號的時候你們就應該要審慎調查之後\n\n15\n00:05:20,507 --> 00:05:35,134\n再來提出書面的結論報告不是嗎委員的指導意見我們會持續的來精進那我們會持續要求電信事業來加強各自治安還有氣勢變化的認證本席這邊特別提醒NCC\n\n16\n00:05:36,414 --> 00:05:56,081\n應該要調查電信業者是否有違反規定甚至違反的情勢存在這樣的調查除了書面調查外應該包含資料調閱和更多複雜的調查方式本席無法相信除了\n\n17\n00:05:56,901 --> 00:06:13,892\n這NCC果真的有認證調查．可以短短一天內就得到答案．NCC如果只是發函．或者是業者說明．然後把業者的回覆．當初調查的結果．根本就是應付了事阿包委員我們在那個有一個決議喔．在立法院有一個決議\n\n18\n00:06:14,472 --> 00:06:41,646\n交通委員會有個結議在7月15號之前我們要去調查清楚而我們會邀請寫者專家或第三方的那個公正的驗證單位去了解去調查了解說我希望你們這一些調查結果結論無論如何都給每一位我們這個本委會的這個立法委員好不好好是好那\n\n19\n00:06:43,752 --> 00:06:45,746\n有請我們國安局長\n\n20\n00:06:53,476 --> 00:07:20,180\n好謝謝主席委員好好局長好那有關於我們的第五縱隊的狀況我想請教一下這個所謂的第五縱隊是指潛伏在內部進行破壞以敵方裡應外合不擇手段意圖顛覆破壞國家團結的團體那你知不知道所謂的第五縱隊現在目前有多少人\n\n21\n00:07:20,780 --> 00:07:49,049\n我想第五中隊是一個比較籠統的概念那就國安單位在查查相關的國安案件我們最主要的還是要依循有相關的法律的依據或基礎那來看相關的共諜有沒有違反我們的法律的要件那就這部分來講各位報告的我們在去年到現在已經有偵辦了81件的共諜案其中特別重要的是有39件都遭到了檢方的起訴那比起往年的偵辦情形來講確實可以看到案件越來越多\n\n22\n00:07:49,249 --> 00:07:49,449\n韓國瑜主席\n\n23\n00:08:07,831 --> 00:08:22,906\n在台第五縱隊的是越來越多在台絕對不只是5000人以上那暫時高風險族群高達10萬人更不一定是中國人台灣人也可以被中共威脅或其\n\n24\n00:08:23,847 --> 00:08:42,642\n做其他事情政府應該要進行管控這些高風險的所謂的族群裡面就包含立委、學者、公廟、幫派、人士請問一下高風險的族群是屬於潛在的第五縱隊嗎?\n\n25\n00:08:43,943 --> 00:09:01,304\n對,我剛剛跟委員說明的是,第五縱隊它不是一個法律的概念,那可能是在學術或政策討論上所使用的用語,但是就國安單位來講,我們在處理共諜案,必須要依照法律的基礎跟要件來辦理,這是第一點澄清跟說明。那有沒有存在,在10年前有沒有存在這個第五縱隊?\n\n26\n00:09:02,185 --> 00:09:24,994\n那第二個部分是對於各界包括立法委員在關切相關的共諜活動以及在境內的滲透活動我們都非常的感謝因為這可以喚醒國人相關的一個國安的一個知覺那我們有提到說10年前的有所謂的媒體提到第五縱隊的相關的數字我還原了一下當時的狀況當時的討論比較像是對岸的人士到台灣來\n\n27\n00:09:25,734 --> 00:09:25,754\n好\n\n28\n00:09:50,541 --> 00:10:05,233\n所以如果像這樣的一個狀況沒有具體的施政的情況之下影射他的賣台或是中共的同路人弄得人心惶惶社會不安所以我想破壞國家團結是不應該要把第五狀態擴大為解釋以上\n\n29\n00:10:12,739 --> 00:10:12,899\n馬文君\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n369\t19480\t謝副署長秦海巡署謝副署長現在敏感的地方就是因為淡水的一個衝到我們淡水這個地方的一些那個前那個什麼停建那我想請教一下\n21055\t47924\t今天早上今天早上我們在發現我們新竹艦在夏威夷發現在那個地方停泊那它進行什麼樣的一個任務第二個台灣和美國現在的一個海型的議題上進行什麼樣的一個合作什麼樣的一個合作你來回答一下好不好\n49022\t73016\t報告委員,新竹艦正在執行今年度的第一航側的太平洋遠洋公海巡護任務這是例行的任務現在我們4000噸的新竹艦,它續航能力更遠而且它有裝備醫療專業人員跟設備所以我們指定調派它來執行中西太平洋遠洋巡護任務\n76158\t98529\t海巡有任務的任何的一個觀摩或是參加什麼樣的一個角色?他扮演的是什麼樣的一個角色?有關於相關的細節的話,除了公開詢問的話我們這邊可以報告以外,那有關相關的細節的話就不方便在對外公開報告,我們是會後跟委員報告。好,那你細節的部分再跟我報告,好。\n99534\t109641\t那另外是有關於NCC如何確認的三大電信的這個部分我要請教\n111124\t133739\t那最近民進黨這個政策會的執行長王逸川在5月27號的時候在三立政論節目上表示其使用的手機、信號、定位分析、清雕行動及近期成抗的活動引發政府或執政黨的監控人民的一個餘力\n136821\t143443\tNCC在5月30號發函國內三大電信啟動調查結果NCC在5月31號調查以書面的報告調查結果那認為就是這個調查結果的結論\n157432\t183182\t是經確認三大電信部層提供清了行動群眾任何這個資訊給其他單位業者也並無任何私人的一個企業政府機關或特定的黨籍人士接洽或請求相關的人流資訊那你來回答一下這個餘力非常的大\n185413\t211942\t跟委員報告其實我們昨天還在找了那個三大電信公司來除了要求他們的個資跟資安都要符合那個ISO的規定之外另外我們也要求電信業者要盡快的導入那個氣勢別化的認證的標準所以說我們持續在做要優先請電信業者一定要去導入氣勢別化\n213323\t221257\t當初你們在書面報告的時候在5月30號只有區區一天的時間你就有一個結論的一個書面報告\n222864\t248050\t那這個是一個非常荒唐而且也是一個唐突的一個決定說我們沒有這個沒有任何的一個問題所在這樣的你們的回答是欺騙民眾還是欺騙國人報委員其實我們是真的有請三大電視業者到會裡面來做行政調查我們不只問了說他有沒有現在問題癥結點在哪裡就是5月30號\n252651\t269037\t那就一天的時間裡面你5月31號就是一個書面的這個做出一個結論這樣會不會覺得你們這個報告根本就是在富航王一川\n270058\t273561\t報委員 這個部分我們持續在調查我們只是把5月30號當天我們請三大電信業者到會來陳述他們陳述的意見表達在我們6月3號在大宴交通委員會的報告上面那我們會持續在精進也要求電信事業要去做好\n292919\t310524\t各自資安還有那個氣勢變化的整個標準的作業流程因為你們已經受到國人的質疑NCC到底調查結果有沒有外露這一些各自的問題所以你們現在才陸陸續續的調查那為什麼你們當時5月30號的時候你們就應該要審慎調查之後\n320507\t335134\t再來提出書面的結論報告不是嗎委員的指導意見我們會持續的來精進那我們會持續要求電信事業來加強各自治安還有氣勢變化的認證本席這邊特別提醒NCC\n336414\t356081\t應該要調查電信業者是否有違反規定甚至違反的情勢存在這樣的調查除了書面調查外應該包含資料調閱和更多複雜的調查方式本席無法相信除了\n356901\t373892\t這NCC果真的有認證調查．可以短短一天內就得到答案．NCC如果只是發函．或者是業者說明．然後把業者的回覆．當初調查的結果．根本就是應付了事阿包委員我們在那個有一個決議喔．在立法院有一個決議\n374472\t401646\t交通委員會有個結議在7月15號之前我們要去調查清楚而我們會邀請寫者專家或第三方的那個公正的驗證單位去了解去調查了解說我希望你們這一些調查結果結論無論如何都給每一位我們這個本委會的這個立法委員好不好好是好那\n403752\t405746\t有請我們國安局長\n413476\t440180\t好 謝謝主席 委員好好 局長好那有關於我們的第五縱隊的狀況我想請教一下這個所謂的第五縱隊是指潛伏在內部進行破壞以敵方裡應外合不擇手段意圖顛覆破壞國家團結的團體那你知不知道所謂的第五縱隊現在目前有多少人\n440780\t469049\t我想第五中隊是一個比較籠統的概念那就國安單位在查查相關的國安案件我們最主要的還是要依循有相關的法律的依據或基礎那來看相關的共諜有沒有違反我們的法律的要件那就這部分來講各位報告的我們在去年到現在已經有偵辦了81件的共諜案其中特別重要的是有39件都遭到了檢方的起訴那比起往年的偵辦情形來講確實可以看到案件越來越多\n469249\t469449\t韓國瑜主席\n487831\t502906\t在台第五縱隊的是越來越多在台絕對不只是5000人以上那暫時高風險族群高達10萬人更不一定是中國人台灣人也可以被中共威脅或其\n503847\t522642\t做其他事情政府應該要進行管控這些高風險的所謂的族群裡面就包含立委、學者、公廟、幫派、人士請問一下高風險的族群是屬於潛在的第五縱隊嗎?\n523943\t541304\t對,我剛剛跟委員說明的是,第五縱隊它不是一個法律的概念,那可能是在學術或政策討論上所使用的用語,但是就國安單位來講,我們在處理共諜案,必須要依照法律的基礎跟要件來辦理,這是第一點澄清跟說明。那有沒有存在,在10年前有沒有存在這個第五縱隊?\n542185\t564994\t那第二個部分是對於各界包括立法委員在關切相關的共諜活動以及在境內的滲透活動我們都非常的感謝因為這可以喚醒國人相關的一個國安的一個知覺那我們有提到說10年前的有所謂的媒體提到第五縱隊的相關的數字我還原了一下當時的狀況當時的討論比較像是對岸的人士到台灣來\n565734\t565754\t好\n590541\t605233\t所以如果像這樣的一個狀況沒有具體的施政的情況之下影射他的賣台或是中共的同路人弄得人心惶惶社會不安所以我想破壞國家團結是不應該要把第五狀態擴大為解釋以上\n612739\t612899\t馬文君\n","txt":"謝副署長秦海巡署謝副署長現在敏感的地方就是因為淡水的一個衝到我們淡水這個地方的一些那個前那個什麼停建那我想請教一下\n今天早上今天早上我們在發現我們新竹艦在夏威夷發現在那個地方停泊那它進行什麼樣的一個任務第二個台灣和美國現在的一個海型的議題上進行什麼樣的一個合作什麼樣的一個合作你來回答一下好不好\n報告委員,新竹艦正在執行今年度的第一航側的太平洋遠洋公海巡護任務這是例行的任務現在我們4000噸的新竹艦,它續航能力更遠而且它有裝備醫療專業人員跟設備所以我們指定調派它來執行中西太平洋遠洋巡護任務\n海巡有任務的任何的一個觀摩或是參加什麼樣的一個角色?他扮演的是什麼樣的一個角色?有關於相關的細節的話,除了公開詢問的話我們這邊可以報告以外,那有關相關的細節的話就不方便在對外公開報告,我們是會後跟委員報告。好,那你細節的部分再跟我報告,好。\n那另外是有關於NCC如何確認的三大電信的這個部分我要請教\n那最近民進黨這個政策會的執行長王逸川在5月27號的時候在三立政論節目上表示其使用的手機、信號、定位分析、清雕行動及近期成抗的活動引發政府或執政黨的監控人民的一個餘力\nNCC在5月30號發函國內三大電信啟動調查結果NCC在5月31號調查以書面的報告調查結果那認為就是這個調查結果的結論\n是經確認三大電信部層提供清了行動群眾任何這個資訊給其他單位業者也並無任何私人的一個企業政府機關或特定的黨籍人士接洽或請求相關的人流資訊那你來回答一下這個餘力非常的大\n跟委員報告其實我們昨天還在找了那個三大電信公司來除了要求他們的個資跟資安都要符合那個ISO的規定之外另外我們也要求電信業者要盡快的導入那個氣勢別化的認證的標準所以說我們持續在做要優先請電信業者一定要去導入氣勢別化\n當初你們在書面報告的時候在5月30號只有區區一天的時間你就有一個結論的一個書面報告\n那這個是一個非常荒唐而且也是一個唐突的一個決定說我們沒有這個沒有任何的一個問題所在這樣的你們的回答是欺騙民眾還是欺騙國人報委員其實我們是真的有請三大電視業者到會裡面來做行政調查我們不只問了說他有沒有現在問題癥結點在哪裡就是5月30號\n那就一天的時間裡面你5月31號就是一個書面的這個做出一個結論這樣會不會覺得你們這個報告根本就是在富航王一川\n報委員 這個部分我們持續在調查我們只是把5月30號當天我們請三大電信業者到會來陳述他們陳述的意見表達在我們6月3號在大宴交通委員會的報告上面那我們會持續在精進也要求電信事業要去做好\n各自資安還有那個氣勢變化的整個標準的作業流程因為你們已經受到國人的質疑NCC到底調查結果有沒有外露這一些各自的問題所以你們現在才陸陸續續的調查那為什麼你們當時5月30號的時候你們就應該要審慎調查之後\n再來提出書面的結論報告不是嗎委員的指導意見我們會持續的來精進那我們會持續要求電信事業來加強各自治安還有氣勢變化的認證本席這邊特別提醒NCC\n應該要調查電信業者是否有違反規定甚至違反的情勢存在這樣的調查除了書面調查外應該包含資料調閱和更多複雜的調查方式本席無法相信除了\n這NCC果真的有認證調查．可以短短一天內就得到答案．NCC如果只是發函．或者是業者說明．然後把業者的回覆．當初調查的結果．根本就是應付了事阿包委員我們在那個有一個決議喔．在立法院有一個決議\n交通委員會有個結議在7月15號之前我們要去調查清楚而我們會邀請寫者專家或第三方的那個公正的驗證單位去了解去調查了解說我希望你們這一些調查結果結論無論如何都給每一位我們這個本委會的這個立法委員好不好好是好那\n有請我們國安局長\n好 謝謝主席 委員好好 局長好那有關於我們的第五縱隊的狀況我想請教一下這個所謂的第五縱隊是指潛伏在內部進行破壞以敵方裡應外合不擇手段意圖顛覆破壞國家團結的團體那你知不知道所謂的第五縱隊現在目前有多少人\n我想第五中隊是一個比較籠統的概念那就國安單位在查查相關的國安案件我們最主要的還是要依循有相關的法律的依據或基礎那來看相關的共諜有沒有違反我們的法律的要件那就這部分來講各位報告的我們在去年到現在已經有偵辦了81件的共諜案其中特別重要的是有39件都遭到了檢方的起訴那比起往年的偵辦情形來講確實可以看到案件越來越多\n韓國瑜主席\n在台第五縱隊的是越來越多在台絕對不只是5000人以上那暫時高風險族群高達10萬人更不一定是中國人台灣人也可以被中共威脅或其\n做其他事情政府應該要進行管控這些高風險的所謂的族群裡面就包含立委、學者、公廟、幫派、人士請問一下高風險的族群是屬於潛在的第五縱隊嗎?\n對,我剛剛跟委員說明的是,第五縱隊它不是一個法律的概念,那可能是在學術或政策討論上所使用的用語,但是就國安單位來講,我們在處理共諜案,必須要依照法律的基礎跟要件來辦理,這是第一點澄清跟說明。那有沒有存在,在10年前有沒有存在這個第五縱隊?\n那第二個部分是對於各界包括立法委員在關切相關的共諜活動以及在境內的滲透活動我們都非常的感謝因為這可以喚醒國人相關的一個國安的一個知覺那我們有提到說10年前的有所謂的媒體提到第五縱隊的相關的數字我還原了一下當時的狀況當時的討論比較像是對岸的人士到台灣來\n好\n所以如果像這樣的一個狀況沒有具體的施政的情況之下影射他的賣台或是中共的同路人弄得人心惶惶社會不安所以我想破壞國家團結是不應該要把第五狀態擴大為解釋以上\n馬文君\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.369 --> 00:19.480\n謝副署長秦海巡署謝副署長現在敏感的地方就是因為淡水的一個衝到我們淡水這個地方的一些那個前那個什麼停建那我想請教一下\n\n00:21.055 --> 00:47.924\n今天早上今天早上我們在發現我們新竹艦在夏威夷發現在那個地方停泊那它進行什麼樣的一個任務第二個台灣和美國現在的一個海型的議題上進行什麼樣的一個合作什麼樣的一個合作你來回答一下好不好\n\n00:49.022 --> 01:13.016\n報告委員,新竹艦正在執行今年度的第一航側的太平洋遠洋公海巡護任務這是例行的任務現在我們4000噸的新竹艦,它續航能力更遠而且它有裝備醫療專業人員跟設備所以我們指定調派它來執行中西太平洋遠洋巡護任務\n\n01:16.158 --> 01:38.529\n海巡有任務的任何的一個觀摩或是參加什麼樣的一個角色?他扮演的是什麼樣的一個角色?有關於相關的細節的話,除了公開詢問的話我們這邊可以報告以外,那有關相關的細節的話就不方便在對外公開報告,我們是會後跟委員報告。好,那你細節的部分再跟我報告,好。\n\n01:39.534 --> 01:49.641\n那另外是有關於NCC如何確認的三大電信的這個部分我要請教\n\n01:51.124 --> 02:13.739\n那最近民進黨這個政策會的執行長王逸川在5月27號的時候在三立政論節目上表示其使用的手機、信號、定位分析、清雕行動及近期成抗的活動引發政府或執政黨的監控人民的一個餘力\n\n02:16.821 --> 02:23.443\nNCC在5月30號發函國內三大電信啟動調查結果NCC在5月31號調查以書面的報告調查結果那認為就是這個調查結果的結論\n\n02:37.432 --> 03:03.182\n是經確認三大電信部層提供清了行動群眾任何這個資訊給其他單位業者也並無任何私人的一個企業政府機關或特定的黨籍人士接洽或請求相關的人流資訊那你來回答一下這個餘力非常的大\n\n03:05.413 --> 03:31.942\n跟委員報告其實我們昨天還在找了那個三大電信公司來除了要求他們的個資跟資安都要符合那個ISO的規定之外另外我們也要求電信業者要盡快的導入那個氣勢別化的認證的標準所以說我們持續在做要優先請電信業者一定要去導入氣勢別化\n\n03:33.323 --> 03:41.257\n當初你們在書面報告的時候在5月30號只有區區一天的時間你就有一個結論的一個書面報告\n\n03:42.864 --> 04:08.050\n那這個是一個非常荒唐而且也是一個唐突的一個決定說我們沒有這個沒有任何的一個問題所在這樣的你們的回答是欺騙民眾還是欺騙國人報委員其實我們是真的有請三大電視業者到會裡面來做行政調查我們不只問了說他有沒有現在問題癥結點在哪裡就是5月30號\n\n04:12.651 --> 04:29.037\n那就一天的時間裡面你5月31號就是一個書面的這個做出一個結論這樣會不會覺得你們這個報告根本就是在富航王一川\n\n04:30.058 --> 04:33.561\n報委員這個部分我們持續在調查我們只是把5月30號當天我們請三大電信業者到會來陳述他們陳述的意見表達在我們6月3號在大宴交通委員會的報告上面那我們會持續在精進也要求電信事業要去做好\n\n04:52.919 --> 05:10.524\n各自資安還有那個氣勢變化的整個標準的作業流程因為你們已經受到國人的質疑NCC到底調查結果有沒有外露這一些各自的問題所以你們現在才陸陸續續的調查那為什麼你們當時5月30號的時候你們就應該要審慎調查之後\n\n05:20.507 --> 05:35.134\n再來提出書面的結論報告不是嗎委員的指導意見我們會持續的來精進那我們會持續要求電信事業來加強各自治安還有氣勢變化的認證本席這邊特別提醒NCC\n\n05:36.414 --> 05:56.081\n應該要調查電信業者是否有違反規定甚至違反的情勢存在這樣的調查除了書面調查外應該包含資料調閱和更多複雜的調查方式本席無法相信除了\n\n05:56.901 --> 06:13.892\n這NCC果真的有認證調查．可以短短一天內就得到答案．NCC如果只是發函．或者是業者說明．然後把業者的回覆．當初調查的結果．根本就是應付了事阿包委員我們在那個有一個決議喔．在立法院有一個決議\n\n06:14.472 --> 06:41.646\n交通委員會有個結議在7月15號之前我們要去調查清楚而我們會邀請寫者專家或第三方的那個公正的驗證單位去了解去調查了解說我希望你們這一些調查結果結論無論如何都給每一位我們這個本委會的這個立法委員好不好好是好那\n\n06:43.752 --> 06:45.746\n有請我們國安局長\n\n06:53.476 --> 07:20.180\n好謝謝主席委員好好局長好那有關於我們的第五縱隊的狀況我想請教一下這個所謂的第五縱隊是指潛伏在內部進行破壞以敵方裡應外合不擇手段意圖顛覆破壞國家團結的團體那你知不知道所謂的第五縱隊現在目前有多少人\n\n07:20.780 --> 07:49.049\n我想第五中隊是一個比較籠統的概念那就國安單位在查查相關的國安案件我們最主要的還是要依循有相關的法律的依據或基礎那來看相關的共諜有沒有違反我們的法律的要件那就這部分來講各位報告的我們在去年到現在已經有偵辦了81件的共諜案其中特別重要的是有39件都遭到了檢方的起訴那比起往年的偵辦情形來講確實可以看到案件越來越多\n\n07:49.249 --> 07:49.449\n韓國瑜主席\n\n08:07.831 --> 08:22.906\n在台第五縱隊的是越來越多在台絕對不只是5000人以上那暫時高風險族群高達10萬人更不一定是中國人台灣人也可以被中共威脅或其\n\n08:23.847 --> 08:42.642\n做其他事情政府應該要進行管控這些高風險的所謂的族群裡面就包含立委、學者、公廟、幫派、人士請問一下高風險的族群是屬於潛在的第五縱隊嗎?\n\n08:43.943 --> 09:01.304\n對,我剛剛跟委員說明的是,第五縱隊它不是一個法律的概念,那可能是在學術或政策討論上所使用的用語,但是就國安單位來講,我們在處理共諜案,必須要依照法律的基礎跟要件來辦理,這是第一點澄清跟說明。那有沒有存在,在10年前有沒有存在這個第五縱隊?\n\n09:02.185 --> 09:24.994\n那第二個部分是對於各界包括立法委員在關切相關的共諜活動以及在境內的滲透活動我們都非常的感謝因為這可以喚醒國人相關的一個國安的一個知覺那我們有提到說10年前的有所謂的媒體提到第五縱隊的相關的數字我還原了一下當時的狀況當時的討論比較像是對岸的人士到台灣來\n\n09:25.734 --> 09:25.754\n好\n\n09:50.541 --> 10:05.233\n所以如果像這樣的一個狀況沒有具體的施政的情況之下影射他的賣台或是中共的同路人弄得人心惶惶社會不安所以我想破壞國家團結是不應該要把第五狀態擴大為解釋以上\n\n10:12.739 --> 10:12.899\n馬文君\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.369,"end":19.48,"text":"謝副署長秦海巡署謝副署長現在敏感的地方就是因為淡水的一個衝到我們淡水這個地方的一些那個前那個什麼停建那我想請教一下"},{"start":21.055,"end":47.924,"text":"今天早上今天早上我們在發現我們新竹艦在夏威夷發現在那個地方停泊那它進行什麼樣的一個任務第二個台灣和美國現在的一個海型的議題上進行什麼樣的一個合作什麼樣的一個合作你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":49.022,"end":73.016,"text":"報告委員,新竹艦正在執行今年度的第一航側的太平洋遠洋公海巡護任務這是例行的任務現在我們4000噸的新竹艦,它續航能力更遠而且它有裝備醫療專業人員跟設備所以我們指定調派它來執行中西太平洋遠洋巡護任務"},{"start":76.158,"end":98.529,"text":"海巡有任務的任何的一個觀摩或是參加什麼樣的一個角色?他扮演的是什麼樣的一個角色?有關於相關的細節的話,除了公開詢問的話我們這邊可以報告以外,那有關相關的細節的話就不方便在對外公開報告,我們是會後跟委員報告。好,那你細節的部分再跟我報告,好。"},{"start":99.534,"end":109.641,"text":"那另外是有關於NCC如何確認的三大電信的這個部分我要請教"},{"start":111.124,"end":133.739,"text":"那最近民進黨這個政策會的執行長王逸川在5月27號的時候在三立政論節目上表示其使用的手機、信號、定位分析、清雕行動及近期成抗的活動引發政府或執政黨的監控人民的一個餘力"},{"start":136.821,"end":143.443,"text":"NCC在5月30號發函國內三大電信啟動調查結果NCC在5月31號調查以書面的報告調查結果那認為就是這個調查結果的結論"},{"start":157.432,"end":183.182,"text":"是經確認三大電信部層提供清了行動群眾任何這個資訊給其他單位業者也並無任何私人的一個企業政府機關或特定的黨籍人士接洽或請求相關的人流資訊那你來回答一下這個餘力非常的大"},{"start":185.413,"end":211.942,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們昨天還在找了那個三大電信公司來除了要求他們的個資跟資安都要符合那個ISO的規定之外另外我們也要求電信業者要盡快的導入那個氣勢別化的認證的標準所以說我們持續在做要優先請電信業者一定要去導入氣勢別化"},{"start":213.323,"end":221.257,"text":"當初你們在書面報告的時候在5月30號只有區區一天的時間你就有一個結論的一個書面報告"},{"start":222.864,"end":248.05,"text":"那這個是一個非常荒唐而且也是一個唐突的一個決定說我們沒有這個沒有任何的一個問題所在這樣的你們的回答是欺騙民眾還是欺騙國人報委員其實我們是真的有請三大電視業者到會裡面來做行政調查我們不只問了說他有沒有現在問題癥結點在哪裡就是5月30號"},{"start":252.651,"end":269.037,"text":"那就一天的時間裡面你5月31號就是一個書面的這個做出一個結論這樣會不會覺得你們這個報告根本就是在富航王一川"},{"start":270.058,"end":273.561,"text":"報委員 這個部分我們持續在調查我們只是把5月30號當天我們請三大電信業者到會來陳述他們陳述的意見表達在我們6月3號在大宴交通委員會的報告上面那我們會持續在精進也要求電信事業要去做好"},{"start":292.919,"end":310.524,"text":"各自資安還有那個氣勢變化的整個標準的作業流程因為你們已經受到國人的質疑NCC到底調查結果有沒有外露這一些各自的問題所以你們現在才陸陸續續的調查那為什麼你們當時5月30號的時候你們就應該要審慎調查之後"},{"start":320.507,"end":335.134,"text":"再來提出書面的結論報告不是嗎委員的指導意見我們會持續的來精進那我們會持續要求電信事業來加強各自治安還有氣勢變化的認證本席這邊特別提醒NCC"},{"start":336.414,"end":356.081,"text":"應該要調查電信業者是否有違反規定甚至違反的情勢存在這樣的調查除了書面調查外應該包含資料調閱和更多複雜的調查方式本席無法相信除了"},{"start":356.901,"end":373.892,"text":"這NCC果真的有認證調查．可以短短一天內就得到答案．NCC如果只是發函．或者是業者說明．然後把業者的回覆．當初調查的結果．根本就是應付了事阿包委員我們在那個有一個決議喔．在立法院有一個決議"},{"start":374.472,"end":401.646,"text":"交通委員會有個結議在7月15號之前我們要去調查清楚而我們會邀請寫者專家或第三方的那個公正的驗證單位去了解去調查了解說我希望你們這一些調查結果結論無論如何都給每一位我們這個本委會的這個立法委員好不好好是好那"},{"start":403.752,"end":405.746,"text":"有請我們國安局長"},{"start":413.476,"end":440.18,"text":"好 謝謝主席 委員好好 局長好那有關於我們的第五縱隊的狀況我想請教一下這個所謂的第五縱隊是指潛伏在內部進行破壞以敵方裡應外合不擇手段意圖顛覆破壞國家團結的團體那你知不知道所謂的第五縱隊現在目前有多少人"},{"start":440.78,"end":469.049,"text":"我想第五中隊是一個比較籠統的概念那就國安單位在查查相關的國安案件我們最主要的還是要依循有相關的法律的依據或基礎那來看相關的共諜有沒有違反我們的法律的要件那就這部分來講各位報告的我們在去年到現在已經有偵辦了81件的共諜案其中特別重要的是有39件都遭到了檢方的起訴那比起往年的偵辦情形來講確實可以看到案件越來越多"},{"start":469.249,"end":469.449,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":487.831,"end":502.906,"text":"在台第五縱隊的是越來越多在台絕對不只是5000人以上那暫時高風險族群高達10萬人更不一定是中國人台灣人也可以被中共威脅或其"},{"start":503.847,"end":522.642,"text":"做其他事情政府應該要進行管控這些高風險的所謂的族群裡面就包含立委、學者、公廟、幫派、人士請問一下高風險的族群是屬於潛在的第五縱隊嗎?"},{"start":523.943,"end":541.304,"text":"對,我剛剛跟委員說明的是,第五縱隊它不是一個法律的概念,那可能是在學術或政策討論上所使用的用語,但是就國安單位來講,我們在處理共諜案,必須要依照法律的基礎跟要件來辦理,這是第一點澄清跟說明。那有沒有存在,在10年前有沒有存在這個第五縱隊?"},{"start":542.185,"end":564.994,"text":"那第二個部分是對於各界包括立法委員在關切相關的共諜活動以及在境內的滲透活動我們都非常的感謝因為這可以喚醒國人相關的一個國安的一個知覺那我們有提到說10年前的有所謂的媒體提到第五縱隊的相關的數字我還原了一下當時的狀況當時的討論比較像是對岸的人士到台灣來"},{"start":565.734,"end":565.754,"text":"好"},{"start":590.541,"end":605.233,"text":"所以如果像這樣的一個狀況沒有具體的施政的情況之下影射他的賣台或是中共的同路人弄得人心惶惶社會不安所以我想破壞國家團結是不應該要把第五狀態擴大為解釋以上"},{"start":612.739,"end":612.899,"text":"馬文君"}]}}}}