{"id":153816,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153816","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819a1b927e31281aa1398b2dfa55713766ca04e565a7cce14effbbb35b6655b00bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:58:01 - 10:08:48","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（五）委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（六）委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【第（四）至（六）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T09:58:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:08:48+08:00","duration":647,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":405,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時58分）主席，我們有請司法院秘書長跟法務部次長。"],["主席：請秘書長、次長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長早、次長早。我想我們今天委員會排審，就是將目前有的刑事訴訟法的相關修正草案，還有司法院跟法務部所送進來的刑事訴訟法修正案一併審查，所以就變成今天會議有好幾個不同的主題，因為他把所有刑事訴訟法都全部納進來。大概就是幾個問題，第一個就是有關科技偵查法的部分要納入刑事訴訟法，這是一個主題；另外就是有關憲法法庭判決之後，關於筆記權的入法；另外也有委員提針對偵查不公開的相關處罰入法，大概就是這些焦點。","首先，因為科技偵查法的部分，我們在上個禮拜，大家就已經大概有做一些討論了，所以今天大概就是就律師的筆記權、辯護人的筆記權的問題，跟司法院還有法務部做一些探討，因為今天所提出來的，我看你們是兩個不同的案子，司法院有一個案子，法務部有一個案子，兩個案子的內容也不一樣，所以這部分可能要跟你們討論一下。當然臺灣的刑事訴訟制度也是一個漸進的進步過程，以我所知，律師、辯護人的在場權到民國71年修法之後，在偵查過程中，律師才可以在場；又過了將近20年，18年之後，民國89年辯護人才可以在場陳述意見，是到民國89年修法，那時候可以陳述意見；一直到民國92年才從職權主義改成當事人進行主義，大概是這樣的一個進步過程。","在111年的憲法第7號判決，有關刑事訴訟法修正的部分提出，有關辯護人在場的筆記權、陳述意見權、偵查中的辯護權應該都要能夠受到充分防禦權的保障，因此我們才有今天的修法。但是修法的部分，我看司法院跟法務部各有不一樣的版本，法務部版本的修正重點除了筆記權以外，對於在但書中所做的限制必須要載明與筆錄，如果有犯罪嫌疑人或其他辯護人在場陪同，應該要再行告知，這個都是法務部版本裡面有的；另外也在第七十條之一明定相關救濟程序。","這個部分，在學界以及實務界大家爭執已久，我本來想說這次筆記權入法是不是能夠一併解決，但是我看到這兩個法案都沒有在處理這個問題，就是有關於使用電子輔助設備，現在在筆記權裡面，比如說攜帶iPad或筆記型電腦進去作筆記，相關的這些電子設備輔助，在我們現在的「筆記權」三個字裡面，事實上還是不清楚到底電子輔助設備能不能在偵查庭中使用？有關這個部分，我是不是先請司法院這邊表示意見，好不好？在你們的修法過程中，你們怎麼樣考量這個問題？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一次的版本裡面，委員沈伯洋等18人所提出來的第二百四十五條第二項修正草案規定，辯護人得與被告或犯罪嫌疑人溝通以及使用電子設備……"],["沈委員發惠：對，這是沈伯洋委員的版本，我是說司法院……"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們尊重。"],["沈委員發惠：尊重？"],["吳秘書長三龍：尊重。"],["沈委員發惠：也就是說筆記權包含電子設備的輔助這點，司法院尊重？尊重的意思就是說包含也可以，是不是這個意思？"],["吳秘書長三龍：尊重。"],["沈委員發惠：請法務部次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們的立場是這樣的。先判知他是確立了辯護人的在場權、筆記權跟陳述意見權，所以重點是筆記權。"],["沈委員發惠：對，筆記權。"],["黃次長謀信：我們容許他筆記，但我們主張的是，如果該電子設備有錄音、錄影或傳送功能的話，在偵查庭中我們是不贊成的。"],["沈委員發惠：所以電子輔助設備有兩個問題：一個是用電子輔助設備來進行筆記，純粹進行筆記，這是一種方式。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["沈委員發惠：另外就是，該電子輔助設備有錄音、錄影，到底可不可以？變成兩個問題了，我接下來就是要問這個。對這兩件事情，法務部的態度呢？"],["黃次長謀信：我剛才已經提了，如果該電子設備只有單純的筆記功能，沒有錄音、錄影、傳送功能的話，個案上由檢察官去判斷有沒有影響偵查，依照第二十五條第一項但書，由他自己判斷。"],["沈委員發惠：所以使用電子輔助設備這件事情，法務部的立場是交由檢察官自行判斷嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：如果有錄音、錄影、傳送功能的話……"],["沈委員發惠：現在先不講錄音、錄影。對於有錄音、錄影功能這點，你們的態度很清楚，就是不可以！其實這沒有法源依據，也沒有法律依據，你們目前依據的是偵查庭管理要點，高等檢察署跟所屬偵查庭，你們是用偵查庭管理要點的第四點的……"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，不純然如此！以大法官解釋來看，只承認對辯護人的筆記權。"],["沈委員發惠：對，沒有錯，但筆記權的內涵，就是我使用電子輔助設備，現在即使不是偵查庭，現在一般人拿紙筆寫東西的也很少。像你們檢察官在寫判決書，律師在寫訴狀，幾乎很少人用手寫。"],["黃次長謀信：對。跟委員報告，如果電子輔助設備有錄音、錄影、傳送功能就已經逸脫筆記……"],["沈委員發惠：所以要分開！錄音、錄影是一個……至於技術上面怎麼確認該電子輔助設備裡面除了筆記功能以外，沒有其他的錄音、錄影功能？這就是技術上面你們的問題……"],["黃次長謀信：技術上就是由個案承辦檢察官去判斷了。"],["沈委員發惠：簡單講，這就是法務部的立場。我這裡有111年度律檢會議紀錄，111年11月30日法務部出席的正好就是次長，那時候還是檢察司司長。那時候你所表示的意見是，可否使用電腦作為札記的工具，授權檢察官視個案決定？"],["黃次長謀信：沒錯。"],["沈委員發惠：到現在法務部的立場還是授權檢察官嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，沒有錯。"],["沈委員發惠：但授權檢察官的結果就會造成一些爭議。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，但書中檢察官可以限制禁止時，本來就考量很多的抽象事由，所以那就是一個個案判斷的問題。"],["沈委員發惠：就是因為你們授權檢察官決定，所以在檢察官評鑑委員會111年度檢評字第93號就有這個爭議，辯護人進來之後檢察官要求檢查他的電腦，檢視他的桌面資料，也要求重新開機，這樣子的要求就是因為你們授權檢察官來決定辯護人能不能使用電子設備。所以檢察官認為要用這樣的方式來確保沒有進行錄音、錄影，但辯護人認為檢察官無權檢查我的檔案，以致有這個評鑑結果！現行授權給檢察官決定，但這次修法既然開放了筆記權，那麼有關電子輔助設備的使用，你們是不是也應該要在立法過程中說明清楚？還是你們到現在仍認為授權給檢察官即可？但授權給檢察官的結果，就是造成了這些爭議。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，檢評所為決議雖不付評鑑，但肯認檢察官在個案上的裁量性判斷。當然，委員擔心的個案問題，是不是要在注意事項中定一些比較明確的判斷基準？我們事後再來考慮看看在什麼狀況之下要禁止、什麼時候要不禁止。"],["沈委員發惠：發言時間到了。我跟你講，其實司法院在今天的立法說明裡有說，你們認為錄音、錄影並非筆記權，你們直接就在今天的立法說明裡說，因為容易重製、散布，所以認為不屬於筆記權，明定在立法說明裡。但剛剛秘書長又說，對於能不能使用電子輔助設備，這部分你尊重……"],["吳秘書長三龍：尊重。"],["沈委員發惠：所以等一下在逐條討論的時候，我個人是比較希望在立法過程中，我們就針對辯護人使用電子輔助設備這事情，能在立法過程裡明定清楚，以避免未來還要再重新修法或者再重新做解釋。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-32","speakers":["吳宗憲","沈伯洋","鍾佳濱","羅智強","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","洪孟楷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四\n十五條之一條文修正草案」案；(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案；\n(三)委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案；(四)委員吳宗憲等\n20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案；(五)委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部\n分條文草案」案；(六)委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之\n一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136101_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"153816","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153816","tool":"pyannote","id":"153816-pyannote"},"job_id":"pL6Ta4id8oG04Fil","queued_at":"2024-06-12 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{\"word\": \"焦\", \"start\": 80.419, \"end\": 80.439, \"score\": 0.52}, {\"word\": \"點\"}]}, {\"start\": 81.462, \"end\": 110.402, \"text\": \"我想首先因為這個科技偵查法的部分我們在上個禮拜就已經大家大概有做一些討論了所以今天大概就是就我們這個律師的筆記權辯護人的筆記權的問題來跟這個這個我們司法院還有我們法務部來做一些探討因為我們這次今天我們提出來我看你們是兩個不同的案子司法院有一個案子法務部有一個案子兩個案子的內容也不一樣所以這部分可能要跟你們討論一下\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 81.462, \"end\": 81.622, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 81.622, \"end\": 82.463, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 82.463, \"end\": 82.683, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 82.683, \"end\": 83.724, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 83.724, \"end\": 84.124, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 84.124, \"end\": 84.264, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 84.264, \"end\": 84.484, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"偵\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 84.484, \"end\": 84.604, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"法\", 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00:00:54,175\n所送進來的這個刑事訴訟法修正案一併審查了那就是條文所以這個就變成今天的會議的有好幾個不同的主題就針對因為他把所有刑事訴訟法的全部都納進來大概就是\n\n3\n00:00:56,523 --> 00:01:20,439\n幾個問題第一個就是有關科技偵查法的部分納入刑事訴訟法這是一個主題另外就是有關這個大法官這個憲法法庭所判決之後我們專門筆記權的入法另外也有委員提這個針對偵查不公開的這個相關處罰入法大概就這些焦點\n\n4\n00:01:21,462 --> 00:01:50,402\n我想首先因為這個科技偵查法的部分我們在上個禮拜就已經大家大概有做一些討論了所以今天大概就是就我們這個律師的筆記權辯護人的筆記權的問題來跟這個這個我們司法院還有我們法務部來做一些探討因為我們這次今天我們提出來我看你們是兩個不同的案子司法院有一個案子法務部有一個案子兩個案子的內容也不一樣所以這部分可能要跟你們討論一下\n\n5\n00:01:52,606 --> 00:02:17,771\n當然這個我們台灣的刑事訴訟制度他也是一個漸進的一個進步的過程他在從這個以我所知好像是這個律師的辯護人的在場權要到民國七十一年修法之後這個才在偵查過程中這個律師才可以在場\n\n6\n00:02:19,093 --> 00:02:21,957\n刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。\n\n7\n00:02:36,835 --> 00:02:50,441\n一直到民國九十二年才從職權主義改成當事人進行主義大概是這樣子的一個進步過程那我們今天今天這個我們在在這個一百一十一年這個憲法第七號判決\n\n8\n00:02:52,682 --> 00:03:13,321\n這個有關刑事訴訟法修正的部分提出就是有關這個辯護人在場的筆記權、陳書意見權他都應該是偵查中的這個辯護權應該能夠受到充分的防禦權的保障因此我們才有今天的修法但是這個修法的部分我看這個我們因為司法院跟法務部各有不一樣的版本\n\n9\n00:03:14,281 --> 00:03:30,954\n我看這個我們法務部的這個版本齁你的修正重點除了這個筆記權以外齁那對於這個這個在單書中所做的限制齁必須要要載明於筆錄啦齁那這個如果這個\n\n10\n00:03:34,264 --> 00:03:46,640\n其他有犯罪嫌疑人或其他變容人在場陪同,應該要再行告知。」這個都是我們法務部版本裡面有的。另外也在七十條之一明定了相關的救濟程序。\n\n11\n00:03:50,195 --> 00:04:07,801\n這部分我有一個在這個學界以及這個實務界大家爭執已久這次我本來想說我們筆記權入法是不是能夠一併解決但是我看到我們的兩個法案都沒有在處理這個問題就是有關於使用電子輔助設備\n\n12\n00:04:09,281 --> 00:04:14,422\n條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條\n\n13\n00:04:40,236 --> 00:04:49,422\n這一次的版本裡面委員沈伯陽18人提出來的245條第二項修正草案規定辯護人得以被告或犯罪嫌疑人溝通\n\n14\n00:05:04,298 --> 00:05:28,840\n以及用這個電子設備（對這個是沈博洋委員的版本我是說我們司法院我們是尊重尊重尊重就是說也就是說司法司法院認為這個使用在在這個這個筆記權裡面包含這個電子設備的輔助你們是尊重尊重的意思說包含也可以是不是這個意思我們尊重這個那法務部來請市長\n\n15\n00:05:30,798 --> 00:05:50,310\n公務員報告我們的立場是這樣先判制他是確立了辯護人的在場前筆記權跟陳述意見權所以他重點是筆記權對筆記權我們容許他筆記但是我們主張的是如果那個電子設備他有錄音錄影或傳送功能的話在偵查庭中我們是不贊成的對\n\n16\n00:05:51,631 --> 00:06:11,819\n所以電子輔助設備裡面還有兩個問題啦一個是說我用電子輔助設備來進行筆記純粹進行筆記這是一種方式另外就是說這個電子輔助設備裡面有錄音錄影到底可不可以這個變成兩個問題啦這個對這次市長講的我本來接下來就是要問這個啦那對這兩件事情法務部的態度呢我剛已經提了\n\n17\n00:06:12,099 --> 00:06:36,642\n如果說他的電子設備是只有單純的筆記功能沒有錄音錄影傳送功能的話各案上檢察官他去判斷這有沒有影響他的偵查二十五條第一項單數他自己去判斷所以使用電子輔助設備這件事情法務部的立場是交由檢察官自行判斷嗎如果他錄音錄影傳送功能的話現在不講錄音錄影錄音錄影你們的態度很清楚這不可以對\n\n18\n00:06:37,663 --> 00:06:55,215\n其實也沒有法律依據啦,也沒有法律依據啦,你們現在目前依據的是偵查庭管理要點啦,高等檢察署這個跟所屬的這些偵查庭,你們是用這個偵查庭管理要點,裡面第四條的,第四點的第六項。我們從大法官解釋他只承認被告辯護的筆記權。對沒有錯,但是這個筆記權的內涵,這是我使用電子輔助設備,因為現在\n\n19\n00:07:04,301 --> 00:07:22,071\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n20\n00:07:23,092 --> 00:07:23,852\n三（刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案\n\n21\n00:07:37,700 --> 00:08:05,020\n簡單講這是法務部的立場因為我這裡有這個111年度我們的這個綠檢會議的會議記錄111年11月30號正好法務部出席的正好就是次長那時候是檢察司司長對所以你那時候你所表示的意見說可否使用電腦作為這個雜技的工具授權檢察官事個案決定沒錯所以你們到現在法務部的立場還是\n\n22\n00:08:06,261 --> 00:08:27,859\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n23\n00:08:34,765 --> 00:08:57,806\n檢查他檢視他的桌面資料那也要求重新開機這樣子的要求就是因為你們授權給檢察官來決定我能不能那個辯護人能不能使用電子設備所以檢察官他就說他認為說我用這樣的方式來確保你沒有進行錄音錄影但是這個辯護人認為說你檢察官無權檢查我的檔案\n\n24\n00:08:59,963 --> 00:09:28,903\n所以才有這個評鑑的結果嗎?那這個東西究竟我們現在說授權給檢察官你們不認為說在這次的修法裡面既然我們開放了筆記權那有關於這個電子輔助設備的使用你們是不是應該也要在這個立法過程中把它說明清楚你們究竟這個到現在你們還是認為說授權給檢察官因此就授權給檢察官的結果就是造成相關的這些爭議了\n\n25\n00:09:30,024 --> 00:09:50,309\n各位報告,這個解評委的決議事實上是,因為他不負評鑑嘛,他實際上是肯認檢察官在個案上的一個裁量性的判斷啦。那當然委員擔心的,個案上我們是不是要在我們的注意事項定一些比較明確的判斷基準,我們事後再來考慮看看,在什麼狀況之下要禁止,什麼時候要不禁止。\n\n26\n00:09:51,169 --> 00:10:13,955\n好,因為時間到了,那我跟你講其實司法院齁,我們司法院的在這個你們在這個今天的修法的立法說明裡面齁,裡面有說你們認為錄音錄影並非筆記權,你們直接就在那個立法,這個今天的立法說明裡面你們就認為說因為他容易從事散佈齁,所以你認為他不屬於筆記權齁,在明定在這個立法說明裡面。\n\n27\n00:10:16,718 --> 00:10:29,008\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、\n\n28\n00:10:30,151 --> 00:10:47,388\n我個人是比較希望說在這個立法過程中我們就針對這個辯護人使用電子輔助設備這事情我們要在立法過程裡面把它明定清楚以避免未來還要再繼續還要再重新再修法或者再重新做解釋的一個必要以上\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11893\t37178\t主席,我們有請司法院秘書長跟法務部市長。秘書長早,市長早。我想我們今天這個委員會排審就是將目前有的這個刑事訴訟法的一些相關的一些修正草案,還有我們這個司法院跟法務部所\n38143\t54175\t所送進來的這個刑事訴訟法修正案一併審查了那就是條文所以這個就變成今天的會議的有好幾個不同的主題就針對因為他把所有刑事訴訟法的全部都納進來大概就是\n56523\t80439\t幾個問題第一個就是有關科技偵查法的部分納入刑事訴訟法這是一個主題另外就是有關這個大法官這個憲法法庭所判決之後我們專門筆記權的入法另外也有委員提這個針對偵查不公開的這個相關處罰入法大概就這些焦點\n81462\t110402\t我想首先因為這個科技偵查法的部分我們在上個禮拜就已經大家大概有做一些討論了所以今天大概就是就我們這個律師的筆記權辯護人的筆記權的問題來跟這個這個我們司法院還有我們法務部來做一些探討因為我們這次今天我們提出來我看你們是兩個不同的案子司法院有一個案子法務部有一個案子兩個案子的內容也不一樣所以這部分可能要跟你們討論一下\n112606\t137771\t當然這個我們台灣的刑事訴訟制度他也是一個漸進的一個進步的過程他在從這個以我所知好像是這個律師的辯護人的在場權要到民國七十一年修法之後這個才在偵查過程中這個律師才可以在場\n139093\t141957\t刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。\n156835\t170441\t一直到民國九十二年才從職權主義改成當事人進行主義大概是這樣子的一個進步過程那我們今天今天這個我們在在這個一百一十一年這個憲法第七號判決\n172682\t193321\t這個有關刑事訴訟法修正的部分提出就是有關這個辯護人在場的筆記權、陳書意見權他都應該是偵查中的這個辯護權應該能夠受到充分的防禦權的保障因此我們才有今天的修法但是這個修法的部分我看這個我們因為司法院跟法務部各有不一樣的版本\n194281\t210954\t我看這個我們法務部的這個版本齁你的修正重點除了這個筆記權以外齁那對於這個這個在單書中所做的限制齁必須要要載明於筆錄啦齁那這個如果這個\n214264\t226640\t其他有犯罪嫌疑人或其他變容人在場陪同,應該要再行告知。」這個都是我們法務部版本裡面有的。另外也在七十條之一明定了相關的救濟程序。\n230195\t247801\t這部分我有一個在這個學界以及這個實務界大家爭執已久這次我本來想說我們筆記權入法是不是能夠一併解決但是我看到我們的兩個法案都沒有在處理這個問題就是有關於使用電子輔助設備\n249281\t254422\t條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條\n280236\t289422\t這一次的版本裡面委員沈伯陽18人提出來的245條第二項修正草案規定辯護人得以被告或犯罪嫌疑人溝通\n304298\t328840\t以及用這個電子設備（對這個是沈博洋委員的版本我是說我們司法院我們是尊重尊重尊重就是說也就是說司法司法院認為這個使用在在這個這個筆記權裡面包含這個電子設備的輔助你們是尊重尊重的意思說包含也可以是不是這個意思我們尊重這個那法務部來請市長\n330798\t350310\t公務員報告我們的立場是這樣先判制他是確立了辯護人的在場前筆記權跟陳述意見權所以他重點是筆記權對筆記權我們容許他筆記但是我們主張的是如果那個電子設備他有錄音錄影或傳送功能的話在偵查庭中我們是不贊成的對\n351631\t371819\t所以電子輔助設備裡面還有兩個問題啦一個是說我用電子輔助設備來進行筆記純粹進行筆記這是一種方式另外就是說這個電子輔助設備裡面有錄音錄影到底可不可以這個變成兩個問題啦這個對這次市長講的我本來接下來就是要問這個啦那對這兩件事情法務部的態度呢我剛已經提了\n372099\t396642\t如果說他的電子設備是只有單純的筆記功能沒有錄音錄影傳送功能的話各案上檢察官他去判斷這有沒有影響他的偵查二十五條第一項單數他自己去判斷所以使用電子輔助設備這件事情法務部的立場是交由檢察官自行判斷嗎如果他錄音錄影傳送功能的話現在不講錄音錄影錄音錄影你們的態度很清楚這不可以對\n397663\t415215\t其實也沒有法律依據啦,也沒有法律依據啦,你們現在目前依據的是偵查庭管理要點啦,高等檢察署這個跟所屬的這些偵查庭,你們是用這個偵查庭管理要點,裡面第四條的,第四點的第六項。我們從大法官解釋他只承認被告辯護的筆記權。對沒有錯,但是這個筆記權的內涵,這是我使用電子輔助設備,因為現在\n424301\t442071\t三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n443092\t443852\t三（刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案\n457700\t485020\t簡單講這是法務部的立場因為我這裡有這個111年度我們的這個綠檢會議的會議記錄111年11月30號正好法務部出席的正好就是次長那時候是檢察司司長對所以你那時候你所表示的意見說可否使用電腦作為這個雜技的工具授權檢察官事個案決定沒錯所以你們到現在法務部的立場還是\n486261\t507859\t三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n514765\t537806\t檢查他檢視他的桌面資料那也要求重新開機這樣子的要求就是因為你們授權給檢察官來決定我能不能那個辯護人能不能使用電子設備所以檢察官他就說他認為說我用這樣的方式來確保你沒有進行錄音錄影但是這個辯護人認為說你檢察官無權檢查我的檔案\n539963\t568903\t所以才有這個評鑑的結果嗎?那這個東西究竟我們現在說授權給檢察官你們不認為說在這次的修法裡面既然我們開放了筆記權那有關於這個電子輔助設備的使用你們是不是應該也要在這個立法過程中把它說明清楚你們究竟這個到現在你們還是認為說授權給檢察官因此就授權給檢察官的結果就是造成相關的這些爭議了\n570024\t590309\t各位報告,這個解評委的決議事實上是,因為他不負評鑑嘛,他實際上是肯認檢察官在個案上的一個裁量性的判斷啦。那當然委員擔心的,個案上我們是不是要在我們的注意事項定一些比較明確的判斷基準,我們事後再來考慮看看,在什麼狀況之下要禁止,什麼時候要不禁止。\n591169\t613955\t好,因為時間到了,那我跟你講其實司法院齁,我們司法院的在這個你們在這個今天的修法的立法說明裡面齁,裡面有說你們認為錄音錄影並非筆記權,你們直接就在那個立法,這個今天的立法說明裡面你們就認為說因為他容易從事散佈齁,所以你認為他不屬於筆記權齁,在明定在這個立法說明裡面。\n616718\t629008\t三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、\n630151\t647388\t我個人是比較希望說在這個立法過程中我們就針對這個辯護人使用電子輔助設備這事情我們要在立法過程裡面把它明定清楚以避免未來還要再繼續還要再重新再修法或者再重新做解釋的一個必要以上\n","txt":"主席,我們有請司法院秘書長跟法務部市長。秘書長早,市長早。我想我們今天這個委員會排審就是將目前有的這個刑事訴訟法的一些相關的一些修正草案,還有我們這個司法院跟法務部所\n所送進來的這個刑事訴訟法修正案一併審查了那就是條文所以這個就變成今天的會議的有好幾個不同的主題就針對因為他把所有刑事訴訟法的全部都納進來大概就是\n幾個問題第一個就是有關科技偵查法的部分納入刑事訴訟法這是一個主題另外就是有關這個大法官這個憲法法庭所判決之後我們專門筆記權的入法另外也有委員提這個針對偵查不公開的這個相關處罰入法大概就這些焦點\n我想首先因為這個科技偵查法的部分我們在上個禮拜就已經大家大概有做一些討論了所以今天大概就是就我們這個律師的筆記權辯護人的筆記權的問題來跟這個這個我們司法院還有我們法務部來做一些探討因為我們這次今天我們提出來我看你們是兩個不同的案子司法院有一個案子法務部有一個案子兩個案子的內容也不一樣所以這部分可能要跟你們討論一下\n當然這個我們台灣的刑事訴訟制度他也是一個漸進的一個進步的過程他在從這個以我所知好像是這個律師的辯護人的在場權要到民國七十一年修法之後這個才在偵查過程中這個律師才可以在場\n刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。\n一直到民國九十二年才從職權主義改成當事人進行主義大概是這樣子的一個進步過程那我們今天今天這個我們在在這個一百一十一年這個憲法第七號判決\n這個有關刑事訴訟法修正的部分提出就是有關這個辯護人在場的筆記權、陳書意見權他都應該是偵查中的這個辯護權應該能夠受到充分的防禦權的保障因此我們才有今天的修法但是這個修法的部分我看這個我們因為司法院跟法務部各有不一樣的版本\n我看這個我們法務部的這個版本齁你的修正重點除了這個筆記權以外齁那對於這個這個在單書中所做的限制齁必須要要載明於筆錄啦齁那這個如果這個\n其他有犯罪嫌疑人或其他變容人在場陪同,應該要再行告知。」這個都是我們法務部版本裡面有的。另外也在七十條之一明定了相關的救濟程序。\n這部分我有一個在這個學界以及這個實務界大家爭執已久這次我本來想說我們筆記權入法是不是能夠一併解決但是我看到我們的兩個法案都沒有在處理這個問題就是有關於使用電子輔助設備\n條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條\n這一次的版本裡面委員沈伯陽18人提出來的245條第二項修正草案規定辯護人得以被告或犯罪嫌疑人溝通\n以及用這個電子設備（對這個是沈博洋委員的版本我是說我們司法院我們是尊重尊重尊重就是說也就是說司法司法院認為這個使用在在這個這個筆記權裡面包含這個電子設備的輔助你們是尊重尊重的意思說包含也可以是不是這個意思我們尊重這個那法務部來請市長\n公務員報告我們的立場是這樣先判制他是確立了辯護人的在場前筆記權跟陳述意見權所以他重點是筆記權對筆記權我們容許他筆記但是我們主張的是如果那個電子設備他有錄音錄影或傳送功能的話在偵查庭中我們是不贊成的對\n所以電子輔助設備裡面還有兩個問題啦一個是說我用電子輔助設備來進行筆記純粹進行筆記這是一種方式另外就是說這個電子輔助設備裡面有錄音錄影到底可不可以這個變成兩個問題啦這個對這次市長講的我本來接下來就是要問這個啦那對這兩件事情法務部的態度呢我剛已經提了\n如果說他的電子設備是只有單純的筆記功能沒有錄音錄影傳送功能的話各案上檢察官他去判斷這有沒有影響他的偵查二十五條第一項單數他自己去判斷所以使用電子輔助設備這件事情法務部的立場是交由檢察官自行判斷嗎如果他錄音錄影傳送功能的話現在不講錄音錄影錄音錄影你們的態度很清楚這不可以對\n其實也沒有法律依據啦,也沒有法律依據啦,你們現在目前依據的是偵查庭管理要點啦,高等檢察署這個跟所屬的這些偵查庭,你們是用這個偵查庭管理要點,裡面第四條的,第四點的第六項。我們從大法官解釋他只承認被告辯護的筆記權。對沒有錯,但是這個筆記權的內涵,這是我使用電子輔助設備,因為現在\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n三（刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案\n簡單講這是法務部的立場因為我這裡有這個111年度我們的這個綠檢會議的會議記錄111年11月30號正好法務部出席的正好就是次長那時候是檢察司司長對所以你那時候你所表示的意見說可否使用電腦作為這個雜技的工具授權檢察官事個案決定沒錯所以你們到現在法務部的立場還是\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n檢查他檢視他的桌面資料那也要求重新開機這樣子的要求就是因為你們授權給檢察官來決定我能不能那個辯護人能不能使用電子設備所以檢察官他就說他認為說我用這樣的方式來確保你沒有進行錄音錄影但是這個辯護人認為說你檢察官無權檢查我的檔案\n所以才有這個評鑑的結果嗎?那這個東西究竟我們現在說授權給檢察官你們不認為說在這次的修法裡面既然我們開放了筆記權那有關於這個電子輔助設備的使用你們是不是應該也要在這個立法過程中把它說明清楚你們究竟這個到現在你們還是認為說授權給檢察官因此就授權給檢察官的結果就是造成相關的這些爭議了\n各位報告,這個解評委的決議事實上是,因為他不負評鑑嘛,他實際上是肯認檢察官在個案上的一個裁量性的判斷啦。那當然委員擔心的,個案上我們是不是要在我們的注意事項定一些比較明確的判斷基準,我們事後再來考慮看看,在什麼狀況之下要禁止,什麼時候要不禁止。\n好,因為時間到了,那我跟你講其實司法院齁,我們司法院的在這個你們在這個今天的修法的立法說明裡面齁,裡面有說你們認為錄音錄影並非筆記權,你們直接就在那個立法,這個今天的立法說明裡面你們就認為說因為他容易從事散佈齁,所以你認為他不屬於筆記權齁,在明定在這個立法說明裡面。\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、\n我個人是比較希望說在這個立法過程中我們就針對這個辯護人使用電子輔助設備這事情我們要在立法過程裡面把它明定清楚以避免未來還要再繼續還要再重新再修法或者再重新做解釋的一個必要以上\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.893 --> 00:37.178\n主席,我們有請司法院秘書長跟法務部市長。秘書長早,市長早。我想我們今天這個委員會排審就是將目前有的這個刑事訴訟法的一些相關的一些修正草案,還有我們這個司法院跟法務部所\n\n00:38.143 --> 00:54.175\n所送進來的這個刑事訴訟法修正案一併審查了那就是條文所以這個就變成今天的會議的有好幾個不同的主題就針對因為他把所有刑事訴訟法的全部都納進來大概就是\n\n00:56.523 --> 01:20.439\n幾個問題第一個就是有關科技偵查法的部分納入刑事訴訟法這是一個主題另外就是有關這個大法官這個憲法法庭所判決之後我們專門筆記權的入法另外也有委員提這個針對偵查不公開的這個相關處罰入法大概就這些焦點\n\n01:21.462 --> 01:50.402\n我想首先因為這個科技偵查法的部分我們在上個禮拜就已經大家大概有做一些討論了所以今天大概就是就我們這個律師的筆記權辯護人的筆記權的問題來跟這個這個我們司法院還有我們法務部來做一些探討因為我們這次今天我們提出來我看你們是兩個不同的案子司法院有一個案子法務部有一個案子兩個案子的內容也不一樣所以這部分可能要跟你們討論一下\n\n01:52.606 --> 02:17.771\n當然這個我們台灣的刑事訴訟制度他也是一個漸進的一個進步的過程他在從這個以我所知好像是這個律師的辯護人的在場權要到民國七十一年修法之後這個才在偵查過程中這個律師才可以在場\n\n02:19.093 --> 02:21.957\n刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。\n\n02:36.835 --> 02:50.441\n一直到民國九十二年才從職權主義改成當事人進行主義大概是這樣子的一個進步過程那我們今天今天這個我們在在這個一百一十一年這個憲法第七號判決\n\n02:52.682 --> 03:13.321\n這個有關刑事訴訟法修正的部分提出就是有關這個辯護人在場的筆記權、陳書意見權他都應該是偵查中的這個辯護權應該能夠受到充分的防禦權的保障因此我們才有今天的修法但是這個修法的部分我看這個我們因為司法院跟法務部各有不一樣的版本\n\n03:14.281 --> 03:30.954\n我看這個我們法務部的這個版本齁你的修正重點除了這個筆記權以外齁那對於這個這個在單書中所做的限制齁必須要要載明於筆錄啦齁那這個如果這個\n\n03:34.264 --> 03:46.640\n其他有犯罪嫌疑人或其他變容人在場陪同,應該要再行告知。」這個都是我們法務部版本裡面有的。另外也在七十條之一明定了相關的救濟程序。\n\n03:50.195 --> 04:07.801\n這部分我有一個在這個學界以及這個實務界大家爭執已久這次我本來想說我們筆記權入法是不是能夠一併解決但是我看到我們的兩個法案都沒有在處理這個問題就是有關於使用電子輔助設備\n\n04:09.281 --> 04:14.422\n條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條\n\n04:40.236 --> 04:49.422\n這一次的版本裡面委員沈伯陽18人提出來的245條第二項修正草案規定辯護人得以被告或犯罪嫌疑人溝通\n\n05:04.298 --> 05:28.840\n以及用這個電子設備（對這個是沈博洋委員的版本我是說我們司法院我們是尊重尊重尊重就是說也就是說司法司法院認為這個使用在在這個這個筆記權裡面包含這個電子設備的輔助你們是尊重尊重的意思說包含也可以是不是這個意思我們尊重這個那法務部來請市長\n\n05:30.798 --> 05:50.310\n公務員報告我們的立場是這樣先判制他是確立了辯護人的在場前筆記權跟陳述意見權所以他重點是筆記權對筆記權我們容許他筆記但是我們主張的是如果那個電子設備他有錄音錄影或傳送功能的話在偵查庭中我們是不贊成的對\n\n05:51.631 --> 06:11.819\n所以電子輔助設備裡面還有兩個問題啦一個是說我用電子輔助設備來進行筆記純粹進行筆記這是一種方式另外就是說這個電子輔助設備裡面有錄音錄影到底可不可以這個變成兩個問題啦這個對這次市長講的我本來接下來就是要問這個啦那對這兩件事情法務部的態度呢我剛已經提了\n\n06:12.099 --> 06:36.642\n如果說他的電子設備是只有單純的筆記功能沒有錄音錄影傳送功能的話各案上檢察官他去判斷這有沒有影響他的偵查二十五條第一項單數他自己去判斷所以使用電子輔助設備這件事情法務部的立場是交由檢察官自行判斷嗎如果他錄音錄影傳送功能的話現在不講錄音錄影錄音錄影你們的態度很清楚這不可以對\n\n06:37.663 --> 06:55.215\n其實也沒有法律依據啦,也沒有法律依據啦,你們現在目前依據的是偵查庭管理要點啦,高等檢察署這個跟所屬的這些偵查庭,你們是用這個偵查庭管理要點,裡面第四條的,第四點的第六項。我們從大法官解釋他只承認被告辯護的筆記權。對沒有錯,但是這個筆記權的內涵,這是我使用電子輔助設備,因為現在\n\n07:04.301 --> 07:22.071\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n07:23.092 --> 07:23.852\n三（刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案\n\n07:37.700 --> 08:05.020\n簡單講這是法務部的立場因為我這裡有這個111年度我們的這個綠檢會議的會議記錄111年11月30號正好法務部出席的正好就是次長那時候是檢察司司長對所以你那時候你所表示的意見說可否使用電腦作為這個雜技的工具授權檢察官事個案決定沒錯所以你們到現在法務部的立場還是\n\n08:06.261 --> 08:27.859\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n08:34.765 --> 08:57.806\n檢查他檢視他的桌面資料那也要求重新開機這樣子的要求就是因為你們授權給檢察官來決定我能不能那個辯護人能不能使用電子設備所以檢察官他就說他認為說我用這樣的方式來確保你沒有進行錄音錄影但是這個辯護人認為說你檢察官無權檢查我的檔案\n\n08:59.963 --> 09:28.903\n所以才有這個評鑑的結果嗎?那這個東西究竟我們現在說授權給檢察官你們不認為說在這次的修法裡面既然我們開放了筆記權那有關於這個電子輔助設備的使用你們是不是應該也要在這個立法過程中把它說明清楚你們究竟這個到現在你們還是認為說授權給檢察官因此就授權給檢察官的結果就是造成相關的這些爭議了\n\n09:30.024 --> 09:50.309\n各位報告,這個解評委的決議事實上是,因為他不負評鑑嘛,他實際上是肯認檢察官在個案上的一個裁量性的判斷啦。那當然委員擔心的,個案上我們是不是要在我們的注意事項定一些比較明確的判斷基準,我們事後再來考慮看看,在什麼狀況之下要禁止,什麼時候要不禁止。\n\n09:51.169 --> 10:13.955\n好,因為時間到了,那我跟你講其實司法院齁,我們司法院的在這個你們在這個今天的修法的立法說明裡面齁,裡面有說你們認為錄音錄影並非筆記權,你們直接就在那個立法,這個今天的立法說明裡面你們就認為說因為他容易從事散佈齁,所以你認為他不屬於筆記權齁,在明定在這個立法說明裡面。\n\n10:16.718 --> 10:29.008\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、\n\n10:30.151 --> 10:47.388\n我個人是比較希望說在這個立法過程中我們就針對這個辯護人使用電子輔助設備這事情我們要在立法過程裡面把它明定清楚以避免未來還要再繼續還要再重新再修法或者再重新做解釋的一個必要以上\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.893,"end":37.178,"text":"主席,我們有請司法院秘書長跟法務部市長。秘書長早,市長早。我想我們今天這個委員會排審就是將目前有的這個刑事訴訟法的一些相關的一些修正草案,還有我們這個司法院跟法務部所"},{"start":38.143,"end":54.175,"text":"所送進來的這個刑事訴訟法修正案一併審查了那就是條文所以這個就變成今天的會議的有好幾個不同的主題就針對因為他把所有刑事訴訟法的全部都納進來大概就是"},{"start":56.523,"end":80.439,"text":"幾個問題第一個就是有關科技偵查法的部分納入刑事訴訟法這是一個主題另外就是有關這個大法官這個憲法法庭所判決之後我們專門筆記權的入法另外也有委員提這個針對偵查不公開的這個相關處罰入法大概就這些焦點"},{"start":81.462,"end":110.402,"text":"我想首先因為這個科技偵查法的部分我們在上個禮拜就已經大家大概有做一些討論了所以今天大概就是就我們這個律師的筆記權辯護人的筆記權的問題來跟這個這個我們司法院還有我們法務部來做一些探討因為我們這次今天我們提出來我看你們是兩個不同的案子司法院有一個案子法務部有一個案子兩個案子的內容也不一樣所以這部分可能要跟你們討論一下"},{"start":112.606,"end":137.771,"text":"當然這個我們台灣的刑事訴訟制度他也是一個漸進的一個進步的過程他在從這個以我所知好像是這個律師的辯護人的在場權要到民國七十一年修法之後這個才在偵查過程中這個律師才可以在場"},{"start":139.093,"end":141.957,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":156.835,"end":170.441,"text":"一直到民國九十二年才從職權主義改成當事人進行主義大概是這樣子的一個進步過程那我們今天今天這個我們在在這個一百一十一年這個憲法第七號判決"},{"start":172.682,"end":193.321,"text":"這個有關刑事訴訟法修正的部分提出就是有關這個辯護人在場的筆記權、陳書意見權他都應該是偵查中的這個辯護權應該能夠受到充分的防禦權的保障因此我們才有今天的修法但是這個修法的部分我看這個我們因為司法院跟法務部各有不一樣的版本"},{"start":194.281,"end":210.954,"text":"我看這個我們法務部的這個版本齁你的修正重點除了這個筆記權以外齁那對於這個這個在單書中所做的限制齁必須要要載明於筆錄啦齁那這個如果這個"},{"start":214.264,"end":226.64,"text":"其他有犯罪嫌疑人或其他變容人在場陪同,應該要再行告知。」這個都是我們法務部版本裡面有的。另外也在七十條之一明定了相關的救濟程序。"},{"start":230.195,"end":247.801,"text":"這部分我有一個在這個學界以及這個實務界大家爭執已久這次我本來想說我們筆記權入法是不是能夠一併解決但是我看到我們的兩個法案都沒有在處理這個問題就是有關於使用電子輔助設備"},{"start":249.281,"end":254.422,"text":"條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條"},{"start":280.236,"end":289.422,"text":"這一次的版本裡面委員沈伯陽18人提出來的245條第二項修正草案規定辯護人得以被告或犯罪嫌疑人溝通"},{"start":304.298,"end":328.84,"text":"以及用這個電子設備（對這個是沈博洋委員的版本我是說我們司法院我們是尊重尊重尊重就是說也就是說司法司法院認為這個使用在在這個這個筆記權裡面包含這個電子設備的輔助你們是尊重尊重的意思說包含也可以是不是這個意思我們尊重這個那法務部來請市長"},{"start":330.798,"end":350.31,"text":"公務員報告我們的立場是這樣先判制他是確立了辯護人的在場前筆記權跟陳述意見權所以他重點是筆記權對筆記權我們容許他筆記但是我們主張的是如果那個電子設備他有錄音錄影或傳送功能的話在偵查庭中我們是不贊成的對"},{"start":351.631,"end":371.819,"text":"所以電子輔助設備裡面還有兩個問題啦一個是說我用電子輔助設備來進行筆記純粹進行筆記這是一種方式另外就是說這個電子輔助設備裡面有錄音錄影到底可不可以這個變成兩個問題啦這個對這次市長講的我本來接下來就是要問這個啦那對這兩件事情法務部的態度呢我剛已經提了"},{"start":372.099,"end":396.642,"text":"如果說他的電子設備是只有單純的筆記功能沒有錄音錄影傳送功能的話各案上檢察官他去判斷這有沒有影響他的偵查二十五條第一項單數他自己去判斷所以使用電子輔助設備這件事情法務部的立場是交由檢察官自行判斷嗎如果他錄音錄影傳送功能的話現在不講錄音錄影錄音錄影你們的態度很清楚這不可以對"},{"start":397.663,"end":415.215,"text":"其實也沒有法律依據啦,也沒有法律依據啦,你們現在目前依據的是偵查庭管理要點啦,高等檢察署這個跟所屬的這些偵查庭,你們是用這個偵查庭管理要點,裡面第四條的,第四點的第六項。我們從大法官解釋他只承認被告辯護的筆記權。對沒有錯,但是這個筆記權的內涵,這是我使用電子輔助設備,因為現在"},{"start":424.301,"end":442.071,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":443.092,"end":443.852,"text":"三（刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":457.7,"end":485.02,"text":"簡單講這是法務部的立場因為我這裡有這個111年度我們的這個綠檢會議的會議記錄111年11月30號正好法務部出席的正好就是次長那時候是檢察司司長對所以你那時候你所表示的意見說可否使用電腦作為這個雜技的工具授權檢察官事個案決定沒錯所以你們到現在法務部的立場還是"},{"start":486.261,"end":507.859,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":514.765,"end":537.806,"text":"檢查他檢視他的桌面資料那也要求重新開機這樣子的要求就是因為你們授權給檢察官來決定我能不能那個辯護人能不能使用電子設備所以檢察官他就說他認為說我用這樣的方式來確保你沒有進行錄音錄影但是這個辯護人認為說你檢察官無權檢查我的檔案"},{"start":539.963,"end":568.903,"text":"所以才有這個評鑑的結果嗎?那這個東西究竟我們現在說授權給檢察官你們不認為說在這次的修法裡面既然我們開放了筆記權那有關於這個電子輔助設備的使用你們是不是應該也要在這個立法過程中把它說明清楚你們究竟這個到現在你們還是認為說授權給檢察官因此就授權給檢察官的結果就是造成相關的這些爭議了"},{"start":570.024,"end":590.309,"text":"各位報告,這個解評委的決議事實上是,因為他不負評鑑嘛,他實際上是肯認檢察官在個案上的一個裁量性的判斷啦。那當然委員擔心的,個案上我們是不是要在我們的注意事項定一些比較明確的判斷基準,我們事後再來考慮看看,在什麼狀況之下要禁止,什麼時候要不禁止。"},{"start":591.169,"end":613.955,"text":"好,因為時間到了,那我跟你講其實司法院齁,我們司法院的在這個你們在這個今天的修法的立法說明裡面齁,裡面有說你們認為錄音錄影並非筆記權,你們直接就在那個立法,這個今天的立法說明裡面你們就認為說因為他容易從事散佈齁,所以你認為他不屬於筆記權齁,在明定在這個立法說明裡面。"},{"start":616.718,"end":629.008,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、"},{"start":630.151,"end":647.388,"text":"我個人是比較希望說在這個立法過程中我們就針對這個辯護人使用電子輔助設備這事情我們要在立法過程裡面把它明定清楚以避免未來還要再繼續還要再重新再修法或者再重新做解釋的一個必要以上"}]}}}}