{"id":153819,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153819","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81956414d2f02c2cd0459a48fe1a1d57c38a04e565a7cce14efbc170b242c5881665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:04:25 - 10:18:45","影片長度":"00:14:20","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:04:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:18:45+08:00","duration":860,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":283,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局蔡局長、NCC副主委，還有中華電信林副總。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，委員好。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝局長。我想先請教一下中華電信林副總，剛剛有委員特別詢問到，是方是中華電信的子公司，那它的機房裡面存在什麼樣的資料？你說它跟中華電信不一樣，也不會直接交付給它、中華電信不會交付給它，可是是方電訊可以蒐集到什麼樣的資料？以它自己子公司的機房裡面？"],["林副總經理文智：是方公司的業務大概也……因為它是獨立公司，不過如果就IDC……"],["馬委員文君：它是中華電信的子公司嘛？"],["林副總經理文智：但是它是獨立營運的公司，就IDC業務而言，IDC業務基本上都是企業客戶在申請，所以企業客戶把主機放在IDC機房裡面，這些……"],["馬委員文君：有沒有可能有其他的？"],["林副總經理文智：基本上不會，因為這些資料應該都是屬於……"],["馬委員文君：都是企業的嗎？他們只負責企業的嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：會使用IDC機房服務的基本上都會是企業。"],["馬委員文君：其他的呢？其他的可能性還有什麼？因為是你們的子公司啊，照理說你們非常清楚，除了企業以外還有什麼？"],["林副總經理文智：基本上IDC業務應該都是企業營運才會……"],["馬委員文君：都是企業營運的？"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以如果是有企業請託，它們也可以協助一些資料的蒐整，是嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，企業在IDC裡面的營運，不管是主機代管，還是公司營運的相關需要，這些資料基本上還是屬於這個企業所有，並不屬於我們這個IDC……"],["馬委員文君：但是在它的機房裡面會有嘛，因為你的資料儲存就是在機房裡面嘛，包括一些辦理活動的公司或者相關的企業，它們有些相關的資料也會在裡面，包括我們所有以前的企業，比如說大家去健身房，其實裡面有很多的資料，不管是年齡、性別、住址、郵件地址、網址等等，其實都會有，是這樣子嘛，對不對？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，那個……"],["馬委員文君：我現在要特別詢問的是，既然它是中華電信的子公司，剛剛NCC說他們都會對於三大電信業者，尤其在出事以後都有把它們找來，那我想請問一下，對於子公司或孫公司呢？NCC回答一下，好不好？除了三大電信業者，那對於像剛剛講的……"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員好。因為剛才徐巧芯委員有問到這件事情，是方也是電信事業，我們就具體的事證也會來瞭解。"],["馬委員文君：目前有嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：我們回去以後馬上會……"],["馬委員文君：目前還沒有，是嗎？所以你們在處理這個事情？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對，我們優先針對三大電信事業，今天有具體的一些資料之後，我們回去也會對是方電訊進行瞭解。","另外補充，是方電訊是一個IDC機房，這個業務是一個空間，至於企業客戶本身的資料還是企業客戶所有。"],["馬委員文君：你們在還沒有查察之前不需要多做說明，因為剛剛副主委也提到，你根本就還沒有跟他們討論過！可是既然有這樣子，包括剛剛講出來的子公司跟孫公司是可以擁有客戶的這些相關資料，所以對於它的管理除了這樣子，回去以後你才要找他們嘛。","另外，對於這些電信公司的機房，NCC有沒有定期檢查？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：按照個資法第二十二條，NCC每年都要去檢查，最近剛好去檢查、剛好完成了一個行政檢查。"],["馬委員文君：都沒有問題？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：就個資跟資安的部分我們都有去檢查，當然會有一些缺失，它對一些個資的內用或外用當然有一些行政缺失，我們也要求它要……"],["馬委員文君：所謂的行政缺失大概是什麼樣態？沒關係，沒有很多時間，你把你們……最近才去查察嘛，是針對三大電信公司還是包括所有其他的？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對，我們先針對的是三大。"],["馬委員文君：所以現在如果有可能發生，因為三大電信公司本身規模很大，然後受制於很多法律規範，其實它們反而有很多事情不會做或不敢做，或者會依據一些法律的相關制約；但如果是子公司跟孫公司就不一樣囉。","所以就這些部分，過去其實都很喜歡去衍生很多問題，局長也在這裡，像很多事件發生的時候，很喜歡做推敲或者去延伸，可是這個已經事實存在，而且在電視公然、王義川已經公然說出來。我們也擔心像這樣子，比如說在集會的活動場域裡面，其實有很明顯的人民政治傾向，今天如果在我們國內可以掌握政治傾向，可是當對岸如果掌握這樣子的政治傾向的時候，對人民會有什麼樣的危害？比如說你去香港、澳門，甚至去中國大陸會有什麼樣的影響？這些都再再顯示我們國安的一個漏洞，不是只有三大電信業者，你的子公司、孫公司要怎麼管理？這部分我們希望很快地針對可能的後續作為，NCC、中華電信還有國安單位把這些相關作法提供給我們委員會還有所有的委員，好不好？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：是。"],["馬委員文君：因為我們也擔心它的資料……"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：針對一定規模的電信事業，我們對個資、資安這部分會來瞭解、會去檢查。"],["馬委員文君：除了瞭解跟檢查以外，我們希望有具體的作為，因為我們也擔心除了給王義川以外，因為民間的公司為了利益什麼不敢做？有可能啊！不是只針對哪些特定人士而已，它可以給王義川，它是不是也可以給中共的國安部？甚至也會放在習近平的桌子上！所以這個部分我們希望可以徹查清楚。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["馬委員文君：兩位請回。我接下來再請教一下局長，我們看到有相關的人士從淡水河口直接上岸，其實這是非常嚴重的一個國安問題，我們現在要說的這個破口，最重要的是，它是一個非常大的破口！我們一直講說它是灰色地帶，然後一直把它導向說，我們還有哪一個設備不足、我們還需要買什麼東西。包括像過去一直發生的無人機侵擾事件，無人機我們不是沒有投錢，這已經超過十幾年以上，我們投入了超過百億以上的預算，有關研發無人機、做無人機相關的，不管是反制作為或無人機的研發等等，其實我們都有做，可是我們居然連最基本的一個大疆無人機過來卻一點辦法都沒有！","到現在還是，現在我們看到這一個是很大的國安破口，不是只有講講一個灰色地帶而已，我們灰色地帶不是現在才發生欸！110年臺中也上來過一個啊，那時候也是他自己報案說他很冷，大家不知道有沒有印象？結果他去報案的時候，也是我們的民眾才去報案的、才把他帶走，110年就發生了。","可是現在這一次發生的更嚴重，比如說他曾經有解放軍的背景，而且他是自己上岸、自己找人打電話，以海軍的任務來說，其實他這個作戰任務已經完全成功，因為他所有的作戰參數都已經取得了，包括當時的海象、他的油料、他的時間、他的路程，他可以自己上岸而且他把整個過程都已經流過一遍，他的資料也已經刪除，針對一個任務來說，他已經完全成功。這不是灰色地帶，而且也不是懲處這麼簡單，上一次可以在臺中、這一次在我們臺北，下一次可能就在臺南、高雄，這些作戰參數由一個解放軍背景的人就已經可以完全掌握，我們的國安破口非常嚴重！局長怎麼看？"],["蔡局長明彥：對於這個個案委員剛剛所指導的，我想海巡署在這幾天的調查報告當中也都有進一步做一些澄清跟進一步的瞭解。就國安局這邊來講，我們會特別關注的是該員自述有解放軍的背景，這部分再結合到他這次是直接用小艇來到我們的淡水漁港，所以我們會瞭解到他的相關動機以及相關路徑，委員剛剛所提到的是路徑的查證，那這部分我們會再配合海巡署調查的結果來做後續的，包括涉及中國大陸他的身分跟動機的釐清。"],["馬委員文君：局長，因為近期已經發生非常多國安相關的事件，我想其實不是只有四張報告把它解決，或是等著其他的調查結果或者等司法的判決結果，其實這在在都沒有辦法改變我們國安現在發生這麼大的破口。因為剛剛海巡說他們雖然懲處了，可是這個事件引發我們必須去非常重視的是，他自述說他有解放軍的背景，我剛剛提到的，他所有的作戰參數，而且他是成功了，到現在我們還不知道他到底是從大船接駁轉乘過來的，還是他自己就一艘快艇直接過來，到現在還沒有辦法掌握，如果他是大船接駁，那還有一個問題，就是我們的雷達怎麼了？因為不管是國防部或海巡，其實我們都花了非常多的預算建置這些相關雷達的監控，可是如果是大船，我們居然沒有注意到，今天如果是一個快艇，雷達雖然沒有辦法很清楚地掌握，可是海巡6浬他都已經發現目標。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["馬委員文君：依照經驗法則，他判斷是漁船，如果在海上有一個不明的目標，這在我們國軍來說它是一個黃色目標，其實黃色目標是最危險的，因為他不知道是敵是友，他不知道這到底是敵艦還是友艦，它反而是更危險的，可是我們居然沒有任何的作為，我們不是只要買裝備而已，今天雷達有可能因為霧太濃，可能也沒有辦法分析得很好，今天如果我們用熱顯像，他有可能用其他冷卻的一些裝置來偽裝，其實都可以達到，最重要的是人，我們現在發生的就是這樣，你一而再、再而三不斷地發生，包括我們可以跟政府高層錄音，或者可以跟對岸女子交往，可是都沒有後續的結果，這對我們國安其實也產生很大的影響，反而一直在追究沒有發生的事情，已經發生的，我們到底做了什麼？局長請你簡要地說明一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：關於這個案子，委員剛剛有提出一些重點，第一個部分是在雷情的掌握上有沒有問題，我剛剛有跟其他委員說明，能夠在6浬外掌握到這一艘7公尺的小艇，雷達的效能已經算是不錯：第二個是在於有沒有空中的監視或辨證的機制；第三個是在於橫向的聯繫跟通報；再來第四個是在岸際相關的監測設施；第五個是委員所提到的，相關的人員訓練有沒有精實可以來做現場的判斷跟通報。我想這幾天在進行的檢討作業有可以再精進的作為大概有以上這幾點。"],["馬委員文君：局長，這個精進作為已經講很久了，從我上一次的無人機還有更早之前，雖然110年臺中發生事情時，那時候你不是局長，可是我們剛剛講的在近期也發生非常多，你如果說雷達都可以發現這樣子的一個……"],["蔡局長明彥：是，有抓到。"],["馬委員文君：雷達很不錯，那更糟！如果你雷達都抓到了，結果我們還讓他這麼安安全全的，然後像完全沒事的人一樣可以上岸，這樣更糟！我們花了那麼多錢，到底為了什麼？這必須要給國人一個交代。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["馬委員文君：我們到現在國安的破口，剛剛我提到的那幾件，其實都沒有一件有具體的作為或調查的結果，這個部分請國安局可以做一個具體的、相關的瞭解或者至少現在的進度怎麼樣，應該提供給委員會或者讓我們相關的國人很清楚地知道，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們會再跟海巡這邊來協同……"],["馬委員文君：除了海巡以外，我剛剛提到很多事喔！這些部分我們希望都可以具體地把一些相關的進度讓國人很清楚地、在國人面前把它攤開，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，特別是作業程序還有橫向聯繫的協調，這部分我們來跟海巡再密切……"],["馬委員文君：那都是書面啦！我們要具體的作為，一而再、再而三，我們從來沒有抓到過一個，也沒有成功地去攔截或者事先防範，這個部分才是我們最擔憂的，我們希望這個部分可以有一個具體的作法，我們要的是這個，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：不要再發生，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會努力。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員、謝謝局長。接下來請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"153819","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153819","tool":"pyannote","id":"153819-pyannote"},"job_id":"lyNplbliikF5vmyx","queued_at":"2024-06-12 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{\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 706.327, \"end\": 706.347, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 706.347, \"end\": 706.367, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 706.367, \"end\": 706.467, \"score\": 0.551}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 706.467, \"end\": 706.487, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 706.487, \"end\": 706.627, \"score\": 0.43}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 706.627, \"end\": 706.647, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 706.647, \"end\": 706.767, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 706.767, \"end\": 706.787, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 706.787, \"end\": 706.807, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 706.807, \"end\": 706.827, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 706.827, \"end\": 706.847, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 706.847, \"end\": 706.867, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 726.903, \"end\": 743.559, \"text\": \"我想這案子委員剛剛有提出一些重點第一個部分是在雷霆的掌握上有沒有問題那我剛剛有跟其他委員說明到能夠在六海里外掌握到這一艘7公尺的小艇已經算雷達的效能不錯第二個是在於有沒有空中的監視或辯證的機制那第三個是在於橫向的聯繫跟通報\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 726.903, \"end\": 727.003, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 727.003, \"end\": 727.524, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 727.524, \"end\": 727.644, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 727.644, \"end\": 727.804, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 727.804, \"end\": 728.204, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 728.204, \"end\": 728.304, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 728.304, \"end\": 728.444, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 728.444, \"end\": 728.525, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 728.525, \"end\": 728.565, \"score\": 0.491}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 728.565, \"end\": 728.705, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"重\", 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741.637, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 741.637, \"end\": 741.757, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 741.757, \"end\": 742.237, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 742.237, \"end\": 742.397, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 742.397, \"end\": 742.538, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 742.538, \"end\": 742.838, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"橫\"}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 742.838, \"end\": 742.998, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 742.998, \"end\": 743.398, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"聯\"}, {\"word\": \"繫\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 743.398, \"end\": 743.539, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 743.539, \"end\": 743.559, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"報\"}]}, {\"start\": 744.58, \"end\": 759.657, \"text\": \"第4個是在岸際的相關的監測的設施第5個是委員所提到的相關的人員的訓練有沒有精實可以來做現場的判斷跟通報我想大概這幾天在進行的一個檢討的作業有可以再進行的作為大概有以上這幾點\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 744.58, \"end\": 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\"start\": 858.526, \"end\": 858.646, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"洋\", \"start\": 858.646, \"end\": 858.848, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 858.848, \"end\": 858.868, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,309 --> 00:00:05,955\n國安局蔡局長、NCC副主委、還有中華電信林副總。好,謝謝主席,我很好。好,謝謝局長。我想先請教一下\n\n2\n00:00:18,956 --> 00:00:46,914\n中華電信林副總剛剛有委員特別有詢問到就是釋芳他是中華電信的子公司那他收集的他的那個機房裡面存在的是什麼樣的資料你說他跟中華電信不一樣然後也也不會直接交付給他中華電信不會交付給他可是釋芳科技他釋芳電訊他可以收集到什麼樣的資料\n\n3\n00:00:48,155 --> 00:01:15,038\n以他自己的子公司的這個機房裡面釋放公司的那個業務我大概也因為他是獨立公司不過如果就IDC他是中華電信的子公司對但是他是獨立營運的公司那就IDC業務而言IDC業務基本上都是企業客戶在申請所以企業客戶把主機放在IDC機房裡面這些有沒有可能有其他的\n\n4\n00:01:15,818 --> 00:01:34,426\n基本上不會因為這些資料應該都是屬於都是企業的嗎?他們只負責企業的嗎?會使用ITC基網服務的這個基本上都會是那個企業其他的呢?其他的可能性還有什麼?因為是你們的子公司啊照理說你們非常清楚除了企業以外還有什麼?\n\n5\n00:01:35,578 --> 00:01:47,636\n基本上IDC業務應該都是那個企業營運才會,是。所以如果是有企業請託,他們也可以幫忙協助有一些資料的收整,是嗎?跟委員報告,那個\n\n6\n00:01:50,720 --> 00:02:06,964\n企業在IDC裡面的營運它因為不管它是主機代管還是相關跟它公司營運的需要這些的資料基本上是還是屬於這一個企業所有並不屬於我們這個比如IDC基本出現可是在它的機房裡面會有嗎因為你的資料儲存就是在機房裡面嗎因為包括它是一些辦理活動的公司啊或者相關的企業他們有些相關的資料也會在裡面\n\n7\n00:02:18,727 --> 00:02:33,103\n因為包括我們所有的以前的企業比如說大家去健身房其實你裡面有很多的資料不管他的年齡、性別、住址、郵件的地址等等網址等等其實他都會有是這樣子嘛對不對好\n\n8\n00:02:34,705 --> 00:02:53,459\n那我現在要特別詢問的是因為它既然是中華電信的子公司剛剛NCC說我們都會對於三大電信業者尤其在這個出事以後其實都有把他們找來那我想請問一下對於子公司或孫公司呢NCC回答一下好不好\n\n9\n00:02:55,902 --> 00:03:14,942\n除了三大電信業者那對於像我剛剛講的因為那個因為剛才那個徐小青委員徐委員有問到這個事情他四方也是電信事業我們也會來就具體的事證我們也會來瞭解目前有嗎我們會回去以後馬上會目前還沒有是嗎我們優先先對三大電信事業\n\n10\n00:03:15,623 --> 00:03:35,734\n那今天有具體的一些資料之後我們回去會對四方電信委會去了解那另外補充那個四方電信它是一個IDC機房這個業務它是一個空間至於說那個企業客戶他本身的資料還是企業客戶所有你們在還沒有查查之前不需要多做說明因為\n\n11\n00:03:37,154 --> 00:03:43,978\n剛剛副主委你也提到你根本就還沒有跟他們討論過可是既然有這樣子包括剛剛講出來了子公司跟孫公司他是可以擁有客戶的這些相關的資料的所以其實他的管理除了這樣子回去以後你才要找他們嘛另外我們對於這些電信公司的機房NCC有沒有定期檢查\n\n12\n00:03:59,626 --> 00:04:15,954\n按照那個那個個資法第22條NCC每年都要去檢查最近剛好去檢查剛好完成了一個行政檢查都沒有問題就個資跟資安的部分我們都有去檢查那當然是會有一些切施啦他對於個資的內用\n\n13\n00:04:18,275 --> 00:04:35,082\n內用或外用當然有一些行政缺失我們也要求他要改進所謂的行政缺失大概是什麼樣態沒關係沒有很多時間齁最近才去查查是針對三大電信公司還是包括有其他的我們先針對的是三大\n\n14\n00:04:36,002 --> 00:04:55,797\n所以現在如果有可能發生因為如果三大電信公司它本身規模很大然後它受制於很多的法律規範所以其實他們反而有很多事情是不會做或不敢做或者會依據法律的一些相關的制約可是如果是子公司跟孫公司就不一樣囉\n\n15\n00:04:56,678 --> 00:05:05,341\n所以就這些部分有很多過去其實都很喜歡去衍生很多的問題局長也在這裡有很多像很多的事件發生的時候很喜歡做推敲或者去延伸可是這個已經事實存在而且在電視公然王逸川已經公然說出來那我們也擔心你像這樣子比如說在集會的活動場域裡面其實它有很多很明顯的就是有人民的政治傾向\n\n16\n00:05:25,367 --> 00:05:29,711\n今天如果政治傾向在我們國內你可以掌握可是當對岸如果掌握這樣子的政治傾向的時候對人民會有什麼樣的危害比如說你去香港比如你去澳門或者甚至去中國大陸會有什麼樣的影響這些都在在顯示我們國安的一個漏洞不是只有三大電信業者你的子公司孫公司要怎麼管理這個我們希望很快的去把它的\n\n17\n00:05:50,930 --> 00:05:54,113\n以低規模的電信事業我們會對各自治安這部分我們會來瞭解會去檢查\n\n18\n00:06:13,368 --> 00:06:34,839\n除了了解跟檢查以外我們希望有具體的作為因為我們也擔心除了給王逸川以外因為民間的公司為了利益什麼不敢做有可能啊不是只針對哪些特定人士而已他可以給王逸川他是不是也可以給中共的國安部甚至也會放在習近平的桌子上所以這個部分我們希望可以徹查清楚\n\n19\n00:06:35,379 --> 00:06:46,732\n好兩位請回我們接下來再請教一下局長針對我們今天有所謂的一個就是我們看到有相關的那個人士從\n\n20\n00:06:57,489 --> 00:07:19,841\n我們的淡水河口其實直接上岸其實這是非常嚴重的一個國安的問題我們現在要說的這個破口最重要的是他是一個非常大的破口我們一直講說他是灰色地帶然後一直把它導向說我們還有哪一個設備不足我們還有需要買什麼東西包括像過去\n\n21\n00:07:20,882 --> 00:07:46,472\n一直發生的無人機侵擾的事件無人機我們不是沒有投錢我們已經超過十幾年以上我們投入了超過百億以上的預算其實在研發無人機在做無人機相關的不管是反制作為或無人機的研發等等其實我們都有做可是我們居然連最基本的一個大疆的無人機過來了我們一點辦法都沒有到現在還是\n\n22\n00:07:48,349 --> 00:08:16,599\n現在我們看到這一個他是一個很大的國安破口不是只是講講一個灰色地帶而已我們灰色地帶不是現在才發生欸110年台中也上來過一個啊那時候也是他自己報案他說他很冷他不知道有沒有印象結果他去報案的時候也是我們的民眾才去報案的才把他帶走110年就發生了可是我們現在這一次發生的更嚴重\n\n23\n00:08:18,476 --> 00:08:46,897\n比如說他曾經是有解放軍的背景而且他是自己上岸自己找人打電話以海軍的任務來說其實他這個作戰任務已經完全成功因為他所有的作戰參數他都已經取得了包括海象以當時的海象包括他的油料包括他的時間包括他的路程他可以\n\n24\n00:08:47,637 --> 00:09:15,171\n自己上岸而且他把整個過程都已經留過一遍他的資料已經刪除這針對一個任務來說他是已經完全成功這不是灰色地帶而且也不是懲處這樣這麼簡單上一次可以在台中這一次可以在我們台北下一次可能就在台南高雄這些作戰參數一個解放軍背景的人就已經可以完全掌握我們的國安破口非常嚴重局長怎麼看\n\n25\n00:09:16,831 --> 00:09:39,840\n對,這個個案委員剛剛所指導的我想海巡署在這幾天的調查報告當中也都有進一步的去做一些澄清跟進一步的了解那就管局這邊來講我們會特別關注的是該員他有自述有解放軍的背景那這部分再結合到他這一次是用小艇來直接到我們的淡水漁港所以我們會了解到他的相關的動機以及相關的路徑委員剛剛所提到的是\n\n26\n00:09:40,481 --> 00:09:50,583\n這部分我們會再配合到海巡所調查的結果來做後續的包括是涉及中國大陸他的身份跟動機的底情\n\n27\n00:09:52,685 --> 00:10:09,175\n區長因為我們在近期已經發生非常多的國安相關的事件我想其實不是只有四張報告把它解決或者我們是等著其他的一個調查的結果或者等司法的判決結果其實這再再都沒有辦法改變我們現在發生的國安的這麼大的破口因為剛剛海巡說他們雖然懲處了可是這個事件\n\n28\n00:10:18,186 --> 00:10:41,366\n引發我們必須去非常重視的是其實他是自述說他有解放軍的背景我剛剛提到的他所有的作戰參數而且他是成功了到現在我們還不知道他到底是從大船去接駁轉程過來的還是他自己就一艘快艇直接過來到現在還沒有辦法掌握如果他是大船接駁那還有一個問題就是我們的雷達怎麼了\n\n29\n00:10:44,449 --> 00:11:01,782\n因為我們不管是國防部或海巡其實我們都花了非常多的預算建置這些相關的雷達的監控可是如果是大船我們居然沒有注意到那今天如果是一個快艇雷達雖然沒有辦法很清楚的掌握可是海巡6海里它都已經發現目標\n\n30\n00:11:03,844 --> 00:11:19,356\n依照經驗法則他判斷是漁船這個如果在海上有一個不明的目標這個在我們國軍來說他是一個黃色目標其實黃色目標是最危險的因為他不知道是底是有他不知道這到底是底艦還是有艦\n\n31\n00:11:22,338 --> 00:11:22,538\n今天如果說我們熱選項\n\n32\n00:11:38,601 --> 00:11:46,867\n他有可能用其他的冷卻的一些裝置來偽裝其實都可以達到最重要的是人我們現在發生的就是這樣你一而再再而三不斷的發生還包括我們可以跟政府高層錄音或者可以跟對岸女子可以交往可是都沒有後續的結果這對我們國安其實也產生很大的影響反而一直在追究沒有發生的事情已經發生的我們到底做了什麼局長你簡要的說明一下\n\n33\n00:12:06,903 --> 00:12:23,559\n我想這案子委員剛剛有提出一些重點第一個部分是在雷霆的掌握上有沒有問題那我剛剛有跟其他委員說明到能夠在六海里外掌握到這一艘7公尺的小艇已經算雷達的效能不錯第二個是在於有沒有空中的監視或辯證的機制那第三個是在於橫向的聯繫跟通報\n\n34\n00:12:24,580 --> 00:12:39,657\n第4個是在岸際的相關的監測的設施第5個是委員所提到的相關的人員的訓練有沒有精實可以來做現場的判斷跟通報我想大概這幾天在進行的一個檢討的作業有可以再進行的作為大概有以上這幾點\n\n35\n00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:58,770\n局長這個精進的作為已經講很久了就我從上一次的無人機還有更早之前算110年臺中發生的事情那時候你不是局長可是我們剛剛講的在近期也發生非常多你如果說雷打都可以發現這樣子的一個有抓到雷打很不錯那更糟\n\n36\n00:12:59,611 --> 00:13:20,300\n如果你雷達都抓到了結果我們人還讓他這麼安安全全的然後完全像沒事的人一樣就可以上岸這樣更糟我們花了那麼多錢到底為了什麼這必須要跟國人一個交代我們到現在國安的破口剛剛我提到的那幾件其實都沒有一件可以有具體的作為或調查的結果這個部分請國安局可以做具體的\n\n37\n00:13:24,782 --> 00:13:44,692\n一個相關的了解或者至少現在的進度怎麼樣應該提供給委員會或者我們相關的國人很清楚的知道好不好對我們會再跟海巡這邊來協同除了海巡以外我剛剛提到很多事喔這些部分我們希望都可以具體的把一些相關的進度把它讓國人很清楚的在國人面前把它攤開\n\n38\n00:13:48,214 --> 00:13:48,394\n謝謝馬委員、謝謝局長\n\n39\n00:14:17,458 --> 00:14:18,868\n我們下面請沈博洋委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n309\t5955\t國安局蔡局長、NCC副主委、還有中華電信林副總。好,謝謝主席,我很好。好,謝謝局長。我想先請教一下\n18956\t46914\t中華電信林副總剛剛有委員特別有詢問到就是釋芳他是中華電信的子公司那他收集的他的那個機房裡面存在的是什麼樣的資料你說他跟中華電信不一樣然後也也不會直接交付給他中華電信不會交付給他可是釋芳科技他釋芳電訊他可以收集到什麼樣的資料\n48155\t75038\t以他自己的子公司的這個機房裡面釋放公司的那個業務我大概也因為他是獨立公司不過如果就IDC他是中華電信的子公司對但是他是獨立營運的公司那就IDC業務而言IDC業務基本上都是企業客戶在申請所以企業客戶把主機放在IDC機房裡面這些有沒有可能有其他的\n75818\t94426\t基本上不會因為這些資料應該都是屬於都是企業的嗎?他們只負責企業的嗎?會使用ITC基網服務的這個基本上都會是那個企業其他的呢?其他的可能性還有什麼?因為是你們的子公司啊照理說你們非常清楚除了企業以外還有什麼?\n95578\t107636\t基本上IDC業務應該都是那個企業營運才會,是。所以如果是有企業請託,他們也可以幫忙協助有一些資料的收整,是嗎?跟委員報告,那個\n110720\t126964\t企業在IDC裡面的營運它因為不管它是主機代管還是相關跟它公司營運的需要這些的資料基本上是還是屬於這一個企業所有並不屬於我們這個比如IDC基本出現可是在它的機房裡面會有嗎因為你的資料儲存就是在機房裡面嗎因為包括它是一些辦理活動的公司啊或者相關的企業他們有些相關的資料也會在裡面\n138727\t153103\t因為包括我們所有的以前的企業比如說大家去健身房其實你裡面有很多的資料不管他的年齡、性別、住址、郵件的地址等等網址等等其實他都會有是這樣子嘛對不對好\n154705\t173459\t那我現在要特別詢問的是因為它既然是中華電信的子公司剛剛NCC說我們都會對於三大電信業者尤其在這個出事以後其實都有把他們找來那我想請問一下對於子公司或孫公司呢NCC回答一下好不好\n175902\t194942\t除了三大電信業者那對於像我剛剛講的因為那個因為剛才那個徐小青委員徐委員有問到這個事情他四方也是電信事業我們也會來就具體的事證我們也會來瞭解目前有嗎我們會回去以後馬上會目前還沒有是嗎我們優先先對三大電信事業\n195623\t215734\t那今天有具體的一些資料之後我們回去會對四方電信委會去了解那另外補充那個四方電信它是一個IDC機房這個業務它是一個空間至於說那個企業客戶他本身的資料還是企業客戶所有你們在還沒有查查之前不需要多做說明因為\n217154\t223978\t剛剛副主委你也提到你根本就還沒有跟他們討論過可是既然有這樣子包括剛剛講出來了子公司跟孫公司他是可以擁有客戶的這些相關的資料的所以其實他的管理除了這樣子回去以後你才要找他們嘛另外我們對於這些電信公司的機房NCC有沒有定期檢查\n239626\t255954\t按照那個那個個資法第22條NCC每年都要去檢查最近剛好去檢查剛好完成了一個行政檢查都沒有問題就個資跟資安的部分我們都有去檢查那當然是會有一些切施啦他對於個資的內用\n258275\t275082\t內用或外用當然有一些行政缺失我們也要求他要改進所謂的行政缺失大概是什麼樣態沒關係沒有很多時間齁最近才去查查是針對三大電信公司還是包括有其他的我們先針對的是三大\n276002\t295797\t所以現在如果有可能發生因為如果三大電信公司它本身規模很大然後它受制於很多的法律規範所以其實他們反而有很多事情是不會做或不敢做或者會依據法律的一些相關的制約可是如果是子公司跟孫公司就不一樣囉\n296678\t305341\t所以就這些部分有很多過去其實都很喜歡去衍生很多的問題局長也在這裡有很多像很多的事件發生的時候很喜歡做推敲或者去延伸可是這個已經事實存在而且在電視公然王逸川已經公然說出來那我們也擔心你像這樣子比如說在集會的活動場域裡面其實它有很多很明顯的就是有人民的政治傾向\n325367\t329711\t今天如果政治傾向在我們國內你可以掌握可是當對岸如果掌握這樣子的政治傾向的時候對人民會有什麼樣的危害比如說你去香港比如你去澳門或者甚至去中國大陸會有什麼樣的影響這些都在在顯示我們國安的一個漏洞不是只有三大電信業者你的子公司孫公司要怎麼管理這個我們希望很快的去把它的\n350930\t354113\t以低規模的電信事業我們會對各自治安這部分我們會來瞭解會去檢查\n373368\t394839\t除了了解跟檢查以外我們希望有具體的作為因為我們也擔心除了給王逸川以外因為民間的公司為了利益什麼不敢做有可能啊不是只針對哪些特定人士而已他可以給王逸川他是不是也可以給中共的國安部甚至也會放在習近平的桌子上所以這個部分我們希望可以徹查清楚\n395379\t406732\t好兩位請回我們接下來再請教一下局長針對我們今天有所謂的一個就是我們看到有相關的那個人士從\n417489\t439841\t我們的淡水河口其實直接上岸其實這是非常嚴重的一個國安的問題我們現在要說的這個破口最重要的是他是一個非常大的破口我們一直講說他是灰色地帶然後一直把它導向說我們還有哪一個設備不足我們還有需要買什麼東西包括像過去\n440882\t466472\t一直發生的無人機侵擾的事件無人機我們不是沒有投錢我們已經超過十幾年以上我們投入了超過百億以上的預算其實在研發無人機在做無人機相關的不管是反制作為或無人機的研發等等其實我們都有做可是我們居然連最基本的一個大疆的無人機過來了我們一點辦法都沒有到現在還是\n468349\t496599\t現在我們看到這一個他是一個很大的國安破口不是只是講講一個灰色地帶而已我們灰色地帶不是現在才發生欸110年台中也上來過一個啊那時候也是他自己報案他說他很冷他不知道有沒有印象結果他去報案的時候也是我們的民眾才去報案的才把他帶走110年就發生了可是我們現在這一次發生的更嚴重\n498476\t526897\t比如說他曾經是有解放軍的背景而且他是自己上岸自己找人打電話以海軍的任務來說其實他這個作戰任務已經完全成功因為他所有的作戰參數他都已經取得了包括海象以當時的海象包括他的油料包括他的時間包括他的路程他可以\n527637\t555171\t自己上岸而且他把整個過程都已經留過一遍他的資料已經刪除這針對一個任務來說他是已經完全成功這不是灰色地帶而且也不是懲處這樣這麼簡單上一次可以在台中這一次可以在我們台北下一次可能就在台南高雄這些作戰參數一個解放軍背景的人就已經可以完全掌握我們的國安破口非常嚴重 局長怎麼看\n556831\t579840\t對,這個個案委員剛剛所指導的我想海巡署在這幾天的調查報告當中也都有進一步的去做一些澄清跟進一步的了解那就管局這邊來講我們會特別關注的是該員他有自述有解放軍的背景那這部分再結合到他這一次是用小艇來直接到我們的淡水漁港所以我們會了解到他的相關的動機以及相關的路徑委員剛剛所提到的是\n580481\t590583\t這部分我們會再配合到海巡所調查的結果來做後續的包括是涉及中國大陸他的身份跟動機的底情\n592685\t609175\t區長因為我們在近期已經發生非常多的國安相關的事件我想其實不是只有四張報告把它解決或者我們是等著其他的一個調查的結果或者等司法的判決結果其實這再再都沒有辦法改變我們現在發生的國安的這麼大的破口因為剛剛海巡說他們雖然懲處了可是這個事件\n618186\t641366\t引發我們必須去非常重視的是其實他是自述說他有解放軍的背景我剛剛提到的他所有的作戰參數而且他是成功了到現在我們還不知道他到底是從大船去接駁轉程過來的還是他自己就一艘快艇直接過來到現在還沒有辦法掌握如果他是大船接駁那還有一個問題就是我們的雷達怎麼了\n644449\t661782\t因為我們不管是國防部或海巡其實我們都花了非常多的預算建置這些相關的雷達的監控可是如果是大船我們居然沒有注意到那今天如果是一個快艇雷達雖然沒有辦法很清楚的掌握可是海巡6海里它都已經發現目標\n663844\t679356\t依照經驗法則他判斷是漁船這個如果在海上有一個不明的目標這個在我們國軍來說他是一個黃色目標其實黃色目標是最危險的因為他不知道是底是有他不知道這到底是底艦還是有艦\n682338\t682538\t今天如果說我們熱選項\n698601\t706867\t他有可能用其他的冷卻的一些裝置來偽裝其實都可以達到最重要的是人我們現在發生的就是這樣你一而再再而三不斷的發生還包括我們可以跟政府高層錄音或者可以跟對岸女子可以交往可是都沒有後續的結果這對我們國安其實也產生很大的影響反而一直在追究沒有發生的事情已經發生的我們到底做了什麼局長你簡要的說明一下\n726903\t743559\t我想這案子委員剛剛有提出一些重點第一個部分是在雷霆的掌握上有沒有問題那我剛剛有跟其他委員說明到能夠在六海里外掌握到這一艘7公尺的小艇已經算雷達的效能不錯第二個是在於有沒有空中的監視或辯證的機制那第三個是在於橫向的聯繫跟通報\n744580\t759657\t第4個是在岸際的相關的監測的設施第5個是委員所提到的相關的人員的訓練有沒有精實可以來做現場的判斷跟通報我想大概這幾天在進行的一個檢討的作業有可以再進行的作為大概有以上這幾點\n761190\t778770\t局長這個精進的作為已經講很久了就我從上一次的無人機還有更早之前算110年臺中發生的事情那時候你不是局長可是我們剛剛講的在近期也發生非常多你如果說雷打都可以發現這樣子的一個有抓到雷打很不錯那更糟\n779611\t800300\t如果你雷達都抓到了結果我們人還讓他這麼安安全全的然後完全像沒事的人一樣就可以上岸這樣更糟我們花了那麼多錢到底為了什麼這必須要跟國人一個交代我們到現在國安的破口剛剛我提到的那幾件其實都沒有一件可以有具體的作為或調查的結果這個部分請國安局可以做具體的\n804782\t824692\t一個相關的了解或者至少現在的進度怎麼樣應該提供給委員會或者我們相關的國人很清楚的知道好不好對我們會再跟海巡這邊來協同除了海巡以外我剛剛提到很多事喔這些部分我們希望都可以具體的把一些相關的進度把它讓國人很清楚的在國人面前把它攤開\n828214\t828394\t謝謝馬委員、謝謝局長\n857458\t858868\t我們下面請沈博洋委員\n","txt":"國安局蔡局長、NCC副主委、還有中華電信林副總。好,謝謝主席,我很好。好,謝謝局長。我想先請教一下\n中華電信林副總剛剛有委員特別有詢問到就是釋芳他是中華電信的子公司那他收集的他的那個機房裡面存在的是什麼樣的資料你說他跟中華電信不一樣然後也也不會直接交付給他中華電信不會交付給他可是釋芳科技他釋芳電訊他可以收集到什麼樣的資料\n以他自己的子公司的這個機房裡面釋放公司的那個業務我大概也因為他是獨立公司不過如果就IDC他是中華電信的子公司對但是他是獨立營運的公司那就IDC業務而言IDC業務基本上都是企業客戶在申請所以企業客戶把主機放在IDC機房裡面這些有沒有可能有其他的\n基本上不會因為這些資料應該都是屬於都是企業的嗎?他們只負責企業的嗎?會使用ITC基網服務的這個基本上都會是那個企業其他的呢?其他的可能性還有什麼?因為是你們的子公司啊照理說你們非常清楚除了企業以外還有什麼?\n基本上IDC業務應該都是那個企業營運才會,是。所以如果是有企業請託,他們也可以幫忙協助有一些資料的收整,是嗎?跟委員報告,那個\n企業在IDC裡面的營運它因為不管它是主機代管還是相關跟它公司營運的需要這些的資料基本上是還是屬於這一個企業所有並不屬於我們這個比如IDC基本出現可是在它的機房裡面會有嗎因為你的資料儲存就是在機房裡面嗎因為包括它是一些辦理活動的公司啊或者相關的企業他們有些相關的資料也會在裡面\n因為包括我們所有的以前的企業比如說大家去健身房其實你裡面有很多的資料不管他的年齡、性別、住址、郵件的地址等等網址等等其實他都會有是這樣子嘛對不對好\n那我現在要特別詢問的是因為它既然是中華電信的子公司剛剛NCC說我們都會對於三大電信業者尤其在這個出事以後其實都有把他們找來那我想請問一下對於子公司或孫公司呢NCC回答一下好不好\n除了三大電信業者那對於像我剛剛講的因為那個因為剛才那個徐小青委員徐委員有問到這個事情他四方也是電信事業我們也會來就具體的事證我們也會來瞭解目前有嗎我們會回去以後馬上會目前還沒有是嗎我們優先先對三大電信事業\n那今天有具體的一些資料之後我們回去會對四方電信委會去了解那另外補充那個四方電信它是一個IDC機房這個業務它是一個空間至於說那個企業客戶他本身的資料還是企業客戶所有你們在還沒有查查之前不需要多做說明因為\n剛剛副主委你也提到你根本就還沒有跟他們討論過可是既然有這樣子包括剛剛講出來了子公司跟孫公司他是可以擁有客戶的這些相關的資料的所以其實他的管理除了這樣子回去以後你才要找他們嘛另外我們對於這些電信公司的機房NCC有沒有定期檢查\n按照那個那個個資法第22條NCC每年都要去檢查最近剛好去檢查剛好完成了一個行政檢查都沒有問題就個資跟資安的部分我們都有去檢查那當然是會有一些切施啦他對於個資的內用\n內用或外用當然有一些行政缺失我們也要求他要改進所謂的行政缺失大概是什麼樣態沒關係沒有很多時間齁最近才去查查是針對三大電信公司還是包括有其他的我們先針對的是三大\n所以現在如果有可能發生因為如果三大電信公司它本身規模很大然後它受制於很多的法律規範所以其實他們反而有很多事情是不會做或不敢做或者會依據法律的一些相關的制約可是如果是子公司跟孫公司就不一樣囉\n所以就這些部分有很多過去其實都很喜歡去衍生很多的問題局長也在這裡有很多像很多的事件發生的時候很喜歡做推敲或者去延伸可是這個已經事實存在而且在電視公然王逸川已經公然說出來那我們也擔心你像這樣子比如說在集會的活動場域裡面其實它有很多很明顯的就是有人民的政治傾向\n今天如果政治傾向在我們國內你可以掌握可是當對岸如果掌握這樣子的政治傾向的時候對人民會有什麼樣的危害比如說你去香港比如你去澳門或者甚至去中國大陸會有什麼樣的影響這些都在在顯示我們國安的一個漏洞不是只有三大電信業者你的子公司孫公司要怎麼管理這個我們希望很快的去把它的\n以低規模的電信事業我們會對各自治安這部分我們會來瞭解會去檢查\n除了了解跟檢查以外我們希望有具體的作為因為我們也擔心除了給王逸川以外因為民間的公司為了利益什麼不敢做有可能啊不是只針對哪些特定人士而已他可以給王逸川他是不是也可以給中共的國安部甚至也會放在習近平的桌子上所以這個部分我們希望可以徹查清楚\n好兩位請回我們接下來再請教一下局長針對我們今天有所謂的一個就是我們看到有相關的那個人士從\n我們的淡水河口其實直接上岸其實這是非常嚴重的一個國安的問題我們現在要說的這個破口最重要的是他是一個非常大的破口我們一直講說他是灰色地帶然後一直把它導向說我們還有哪一個設備不足我們還有需要買什麼東西包括像過去\n一直發生的無人機侵擾的事件無人機我們不是沒有投錢我們已經超過十幾年以上我們投入了超過百億以上的預算其實在研發無人機在做無人機相關的不管是反制作為或無人機的研發等等其實我們都有做可是我們居然連最基本的一個大疆的無人機過來了我們一點辦法都沒有到現在還是\n現在我們看到這一個他是一個很大的國安破口不是只是講講一個灰色地帶而已我們灰色地帶不是現在才發生欸110年台中也上來過一個啊那時候也是他自己報案他說他很冷他不知道有沒有印象結果他去報案的時候也是我們的民眾才去報案的才把他帶走110年就發生了可是我們現在這一次發生的更嚴重\n比如說他曾經是有解放軍的背景而且他是自己上岸自己找人打電話以海軍的任務來說其實他這個作戰任務已經完全成功因為他所有的作戰參數他都已經取得了包括海象以當時的海象包括他的油料包括他的時間包括他的路程他可以\n自己上岸而且他把整個過程都已經留過一遍他的資料已經刪除這針對一個任務來說他是已經完全成功這不是灰色地帶而且也不是懲處這樣這麼簡單上一次可以在台中這一次可以在我們台北下一次可能就在台南高雄這些作戰參數一個解放軍背景的人就已經可以完全掌握我們的國安破口非常嚴重 局長怎麼看\n對,這個個案委員剛剛所指導的我想海巡署在這幾天的調查報告當中也都有進一步的去做一些澄清跟進一步的了解那就管局這邊來講我們會特別關注的是該員他有自述有解放軍的背景那這部分再結合到他這一次是用小艇來直接到我們的淡水漁港所以我們會了解到他的相關的動機以及相關的路徑委員剛剛所提到的是\n這部分我們會再配合到海巡所調查的結果來做後續的包括是涉及中國大陸他的身份跟動機的底情\n區長因為我們在近期已經發生非常多的國安相關的事件我想其實不是只有四張報告把它解決或者我們是等著其他的一個調查的結果或者等司法的判決結果其實這再再都沒有辦法改變我們現在發生的國安的這麼大的破口因為剛剛海巡說他們雖然懲處了可是這個事件\n引發我們必須去非常重視的是其實他是自述說他有解放軍的背景我剛剛提到的他所有的作戰參數而且他是成功了到現在我們還不知道他到底是從大船去接駁轉程過來的還是他自己就一艘快艇直接過來到現在還沒有辦法掌握如果他是大船接駁那還有一個問題就是我們的雷達怎麼了\n因為我們不管是國防部或海巡其實我們都花了非常多的預算建置這些相關的雷達的監控可是如果是大船我們居然沒有注意到那今天如果是一個快艇雷達雖然沒有辦法很清楚的掌握可是海巡6海里它都已經發現目標\n依照經驗法則他判斷是漁船這個如果在海上有一個不明的目標這個在我們國軍來說他是一個黃色目標其實黃色目標是最危險的因為他不知道是底是有他不知道這到底是底艦還是有艦\n今天如果說我們熱選項\n他有可能用其他的冷卻的一些裝置來偽裝其實都可以達到最重要的是人我們現在發生的就是這樣你一而再再而三不斷的發生還包括我們可以跟政府高層錄音或者可以跟對岸女子可以交往可是都沒有後續的結果這對我們國安其實也產生很大的影響反而一直在追究沒有發生的事情已經發生的我們到底做了什麼局長你簡要的說明一下\n我想這案子委員剛剛有提出一些重點第一個部分是在雷霆的掌握上有沒有問題那我剛剛有跟其他委員說明到能夠在六海里外掌握到這一艘7公尺的小艇已經算雷達的效能不錯第二個是在於有沒有空中的監視或辯證的機制那第三個是在於橫向的聯繫跟通報\n第4個是在岸際的相關的監測的設施第5個是委員所提到的相關的人員的訓練有沒有精實可以來做現場的判斷跟通報我想大概這幾天在進行的一個檢討的作業有可以再進行的作為大概有以上這幾點\n局長這個精進的作為已經講很久了就我從上一次的無人機還有更早之前算110年臺中發生的事情那時候你不是局長可是我們剛剛講的在近期也發生非常多你如果說雷打都可以發現這樣子的一個有抓到雷打很不錯那更糟\n如果你雷達都抓到了結果我們人還讓他這麼安安全全的然後完全像沒事的人一樣就可以上岸這樣更糟我們花了那麼多錢到底為了什麼這必須要跟國人一個交代我們到現在國安的破口剛剛我提到的那幾件其實都沒有一件可以有具體的作為或調查的結果這個部分請國安局可以做具體的\n一個相關的了解或者至少現在的進度怎麼樣應該提供給委員會或者我們相關的國人很清楚的知道好不好對我們會再跟海巡這邊來協同除了海巡以外我剛剛提到很多事喔這些部分我們希望都可以具體的把一些相關的進度把它讓國人很清楚的在國人面前把它攤開\n謝謝馬委員、謝謝局長\n我們下面請沈博洋委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.309 --> 00:05.955\n國安局蔡局長、NCC副主委、還有中華電信林副總。好,謝謝主席,我很好。好,謝謝局長。我想先請教一下\n\n00:18.956 --> 00:46.914\n中華電信林副總剛剛有委員特別有詢問到就是釋芳他是中華電信的子公司那他收集的他的那個機房裡面存在的是什麼樣的資料你說他跟中華電信不一樣然後也也不會直接交付給他中華電信不會交付給他可是釋芳科技他釋芳電訊他可以收集到什麼樣的資料\n\n00:48.155 --> 01:15.038\n以他自己的子公司的這個機房裡面釋放公司的那個業務我大概也因為他是獨立公司不過如果就IDC他是中華電信的子公司對但是他是獨立營運的公司那就IDC業務而言IDC業務基本上都是企業客戶在申請所以企業客戶把主機放在IDC機房裡面這些有沒有可能有其他的\n\n01:15.818 --> 01:34.426\n基本上不會因為這些資料應該都是屬於都是企業的嗎?他們只負責企業的嗎?會使用ITC基網服務的這個基本上都會是那個企業其他的呢?其他的可能性還有什麼?因為是你們的子公司啊照理說你們非常清楚除了企業以外還有什麼?\n\n01:35.578 --> 01:47.636\n基本上IDC業務應該都是那個企業營運才會,是。所以如果是有企業請託,他們也可以幫忙協助有一些資料的收整,是嗎?跟委員報告,那個\n\n01:50.720 --> 02:06.964\n企業在IDC裡面的營運它因為不管它是主機代管還是相關跟它公司營運的需要這些的資料基本上是還是屬於這一個企業所有並不屬於我們這個比如IDC基本出現可是在它的機房裡面會有嗎因為你的資料儲存就是在機房裡面嗎因為包括它是一些辦理活動的公司啊或者相關的企業他們有些相關的資料也會在裡面\n\n02:18.727 --> 02:33.103\n因為包括我們所有的以前的企業比如說大家去健身房其實你裡面有很多的資料不管他的年齡、性別、住址、郵件的地址等等網址等等其實他都會有是這樣子嘛對不對好\n\n02:34.705 --> 02:53.459\n那我現在要特別詢問的是因為它既然是中華電信的子公司剛剛NCC說我們都會對於三大電信業者尤其在這個出事以後其實都有把他們找來那我想請問一下對於子公司或孫公司呢NCC回答一下好不好\n\n02:55.902 --> 03:14.942\n除了三大電信業者那對於像我剛剛講的因為那個因為剛才那個徐小青委員徐委員有問到這個事情他四方也是電信事業我們也會來就具體的事證我們也會來瞭解目前有嗎我們會回去以後馬上會目前還沒有是嗎我們優先先對三大電信事業\n\n03:15.623 --> 03:35.734\n那今天有具體的一些資料之後我們回去會對四方電信委會去了解那另外補充那個四方電信它是一個IDC機房這個業務它是一個空間至於說那個企業客戶他本身的資料還是企業客戶所有你們在還沒有查查之前不需要多做說明因為\n\n03:37.154 --> 03:43.978\n剛剛副主委你也提到你根本就還沒有跟他們討論過可是既然有這樣子包括剛剛講出來了子公司跟孫公司他是可以擁有客戶的這些相關的資料的所以其實他的管理除了這樣子回去以後你才要找他們嘛另外我們對於這些電信公司的機房NCC有沒有定期檢查\n\n03:59.626 --> 04:15.954\n按照那個那個個資法第22條NCC每年都要去檢查最近剛好去檢查剛好完成了一個行政檢查都沒有問題就個資跟資安的部分我們都有去檢查那當然是會有一些切施啦他對於個資的內用\n\n04:18.275 --> 04:35.082\n內用或外用當然有一些行政缺失我們也要求他要改進所謂的行政缺失大概是什麼樣態沒關係沒有很多時間齁最近才去查查是針對三大電信公司還是包括有其他的我們先針對的是三大\n\n04:36.002 --> 04:55.797\n所以現在如果有可能發生因為如果三大電信公司它本身規模很大然後它受制於很多的法律規範所以其實他們反而有很多事情是不會做或不敢做或者會依據法律的一些相關的制約可是如果是子公司跟孫公司就不一樣囉\n\n04:56.678 --> 05:05.341\n所以就這些部分有很多過去其實都很喜歡去衍生很多的問題局長也在這裡有很多像很多的事件發生的時候很喜歡做推敲或者去延伸可是這個已經事實存在而且在電視公然王逸川已經公然說出來那我們也擔心你像這樣子比如說在集會的活動場域裡面其實它有很多很明顯的就是有人民的政治傾向\n\n05:25.367 --> 05:29.711\n今天如果政治傾向在我們國內你可以掌握可是當對岸如果掌握這樣子的政治傾向的時候對人民會有什麼樣的危害比如說你去香港比如你去澳門或者甚至去中國大陸會有什麼樣的影響這些都在在顯示我們國安的一個漏洞不是只有三大電信業者你的子公司孫公司要怎麼管理這個我們希望很快的去把它的\n\n05:50.930 --> 05:54.113\n以低規模的電信事業我們會對各自治安這部分我們會來瞭解會去檢查\n\n06:13.368 --> 06:34.839\n除了了解跟檢查以外我們希望有具體的作為因為我們也擔心除了給王逸川以外因為民間的公司為了利益什麼不敢做有可能啊不是只針對哪些特定人士而已他可以給王逸川他是不是也可以給中共的國安部甚至也會放在習近平的桌子上所以這個部分我們希望可以徹查清楚\n\n06:35.379 --> 06:46.732\n好兩位請回我們接下來再請教一下局長針對我們今天有所謂的一個就是我們看到有相關的那個人士從\n\n06:57.489 --> 07:19.841\n我們的淡水河口其實直接上岸其實這是非常嚴重的一個國安的問題我們現在要說的這個破口最重要的是他是一個非常大的破口我們一直講說他是灰色地帶然後一直把它導向說我們還有哪一個設備不足我們還有需要買什麼東西包括像過去\n\n07:20.882 --> 07:46.472\n一直發生的無人機侵擾的事件無人機我們不是沒有投錢我們已經超過十幾年以上我們投入了超過百億以上的預算其實在研發無人機在做無人機相關的不管是反制作為或無人機的研發等等其實我們都有做可是我們居然連最基本的一個大疆的無人機過來了我們一點辦法都沒有到現在還是\n\n07:48.349 --> 08:16.599\n現在我們看到這一個他是一個很大的國安破口不是只是講講一個灰色地帶而已我們灰色地帶不是現在才發生欸110年台中也上來過一個啊那時候也是他自己報案他說他很冷他不知道有沒有印象結果他去報案的時候也是我們的民眾才去報案的才把他帶走110年就發生了可是我們現在這一次發生的更嚴重\n\n08:18.476 --> 08:46.897\n比如說他曾經是有解放軍的背景而且他是自己上岸自己找人打電話以海軍的任務來說其實他這個作戰任務已經完全成功因為他所有的作戰參數他都已經取得了包括海象以當時的海象包括他的油料包括他的時間包括他的路程他可以\n\n08:47.637 --> 09:15.171\n自己上岸而且他把整個過程都已經留過一遍他的資料已經刪除這針對一個任務來說他是已經完全成功這不是灰色地帶而且也不是懲處這樣這麼簡單上一次可以在台中這一次可以在我們台北下一次可能就在台南高雄這些作戰參數一個解放軍背景的人就已經可以完全掌握我們的國安破口非常嚴重局長怎麼看\n\n09:16.831 --> 09:39.840\n對,這個個案委員剛剛所指導的我想海巡署在這幾天的調查報告當中也都有進一步的去做一些澄清跟進一步的了解那就管局這邊來講我們會特別關注的是該員他有自述有解放軍的背景那這部分再結合到他這一次是用小艇來直接到我們的淡水漁港所以我們會了解到他的相關的動機以及相關的路徑委員剛剛所提到的是\n\n09:40.481 --> 09:50.583\n這部分我們會再配合到海巡所調查的結果來做後續的包括是涉及中國大陸他的身份跟動機的底情\n\n09:52.685 --> 10:09.175\n區長因為我們在近期已經發生非常多的國安相關的事件我想其實不是只有四張報告把它解決或者我們是等著其他的一個調查的結果或者等司法的判決結果其實這再再都沒有辦法改變我們現在發生的國安的這麼大的破口因為剛剛海巡說他們雖然懲處了可是這個事件\n\n10:18.186 --> 10:41.366\n引發我們必須去非常重視的是其實他是自述說他有解放軍的背景我剛剛提到的他所有的作戰參數而且他是成功了到現在我們還不知道他到底是從大船去接駁轉程過來的還是他自己就一艘快艇直接過來到現在還沒有辦法掌握如果他是大船接駁那還有一個問題就是我們的雷達怎麼了\n\n10:44.449 --> 11:01.782\n因為我們不管是國防部或海巡其實我們都花了非常多的預算建置這些相關的雷達的監控可是如果是大船我們居然沒有注意到那今天如果是一個快艇雷達雖然沒有辦法很清楚的掌握可是海巡6海里它都已經發現目標\n\n11:03.844 --> 11:19.356\n依照經驗法則他判斷是漁船這個如果在海上有一個不明的目標這個在我們國軍來說他是一個黃色目標其實黃色目標是最危險的因為他不知道是底是有他不知道這到底是底艦還是有艦\n\n11:22.338 --> 11:22.538\n今天如果說我們熱選項\n\n11:38.601 --> 11:46.867\n他有可能用其他的冷卻的一些裝置來偽裝其實都可以達到最重要的是人我們現在發生的就是這樣你一而再再而三不斷的發生還包括我們可以跟政府高層錄音或者可以跟對岸女子可以交往可是都沒有後續的結果這對我們國安其實也產生很大的影響反而一直在追究沒有發生的事情已經發生的我們到底做了什麼局長你簡要的說明一下\n\n12:06.903 --> 12:23.559\n我想這案子委員剛剛有提出一些重點第一個部分是在雷霆的掌握上有沒有問題那我剛剛有跟其他委員說明到能夠在六海里外掌握到這一艘7公尺的小艇已經算雷達的效能不錯第二個是在於有沒有空中的監視或辯證的機制那第三個是在於橫向的聯繫跟通報\n\n12:24.580 --> 12:39.657\n第4個是在岸際的相關的監測的設施第5個是委員所提到的相關的人員的訓練有沒有精實可以來做現場的判斷跟通報我想大概這幾天在進行的一個檢討的作業有可以再進行的作為大概有以上這幾點\n\n12:41.190 --> 12:58.770\n局長這個精進的作為已經講很久了就我從上一次的無人機還有更早之前算110年臺中發生的事情那時候你不是局長可是我們剛剛講的在近期也發生非常多你如果說雷打都可以發現這樣子的一個有抓到雷打很不錯那更糟\n\n12:59.611 --> 13:20.300\n如果你雷達都抓到了結果我們人還讓他這麼安安全全的然後完全像沒事的人一樣就可以上岸這樣更糟我們花了那麼多錢到底為了什麼這必須要跟國人一個交代我們到現在國安的破口剛剛我提到的那幾件其實都沒有一件可以有具體的作為或調查的結果這個部分請國安局可以做具體的\n\n13:24.782 --> 13:44.692\n一個相關的了解或者至少現在的進度怎麼樣應該提供給委員會或者我們相關的國人很清楚的知道好不好對我們會再跟海巡這邊來協同除了海巡以外我剛剛提到很多事喔這些部分我們希望都可以具體的把一些相關的進度把它讓國人很清楚的在國人面前把它攤開\n\n13:48.214 --> 13:48.394\n謝謝馬委員、謝謝局長\n\n14:17.458 --> 14:18.868\n我們下面請沈博洋委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.309,"end":5.955,"text":"國安局蔡局長、NCC副主委、還有中華電信林副總。好,謝謝主席,我很好。好,謝謝局長。我想先請教一下"},{"start":18.956,"end":46.914,"text":"中華電信林副總剛剛有委員特別有詢問到就是釋芳他是中華電信的子公司那他收集的他的那個機房裡面存在的是什麼樣的資料你說他跟中華電信不一樣然後也也不會直接交付給他中華電信不會交付給他可是釋芳科技他釋芳電訊他可以收集到什麼樣的資料"},{"start":48.155,"end":75.038,"text":"以他自己的子公司的這個機房裡面釋放公司的那個業務我大概也因為他是獨立公司不過如果就IDC他是中華電信的子公司對但是他是獨立營運的公司那就IDC業務而言IDC業務基本上都是企業客戶在申請所以企業客戶把主機放在IDC機房裡面這些有沒有可能有其他的"},{"start":75.818,"end":94.426,"text":"基本上不會因為這些資料應該都是屬於都是企業的嗎?他們只負責企業的嗎?會使用ITC基網服務的這個基本上都會是那個企業其他的呢?其他的可能性還有什麼?因為是你們的子公司啊照理說你們非常清楚除了企業以外還有什麼?"},{"start":95.578,"end":107.636,"text":"基本上IDC業務應該都是那個企業營運才會,是。所以如果是有企業請託,他們也可以幫忙協助有一些資料的收整,是嗎?跟委員報告,那個"},{"start":110.72,"end":126.964,"text":"企業在IDC裡面的營運它因為不管它是主機代管還是相關跟它公司營運的需要這些的資料基本上是還是屬於這一個企業所有並不屬於我們這個比如IDC基本出現可是在它的機房裡面會有嗎因為你的資料儲存就是在機房裡面嗎因為包括它是一些辦理活動的公司啊或者相關的企業他們有些相關的資料也會在裡面"},{"start":138.727,"end":153.103,"text":"因為包括我們所有的以前的企業比如說大家去健身房其實你裡面有很多的資料不管他的年齡、性別、住址、郵件的地址等等網址等等其實他都會有是這樣子嘛對不對好"},{"start":154.705,"end":173.459,"text":"那我現在要特別詢問的是因為它既然是中華電信的子公司剛剛NCC說我們都會對於三大電信業者尤其在這個出事以後其實都有把他們找來那我想請問一下對於子公司或孫公司呢NCC回答一下好不好"},{"start":175.902,"end":194.942,"text":"除了三大電信業者那對於像我剛剛講的因為那個因為剛才那個徐小青委員徐委員有問到這個事情他四方也是電信事業我們也會來就具體的事證我們也會來瞭解目前有嗎我們會回去以後馬上會目前還沒有是嗎我們優先先對三大電信事業"},{"start":195.623,"end":215.734,"text":"那今天有具體的一些資料之後我們回去會對四方電信委會去了解那另外補充那個四方電信它是一個IDC機房這個業務它是一個空間至於說那個企業客戶他本身的資料還是企業客戶所有你們在還沒有查查之前不需要多做說明因為"},{"start":217.154,"end":223.978,"text":"剛剛副主委你也提到你根本就還沒有跟他們討論過可是既然有這樣子包括剛剛講出來了子公司跟孫公司他是可以擁有客戶的這些相關的資料的所以其實他的管理除了這樣子回去以後你才要找他們嘛另外我們對於這些電信公司的機房NCC有沒有定期檢查"},{"start":239.626,"end":255.954,"text":"按照那個那個個資法第22條NCC每年都要去檢查最近剛好去檢查剛好完成了一個行政檢查都沒有問題就個資跟資安的部分我們都有去檢查那當然是會有一些切施啦他對於個資的內用"},{"start":258.275,"end":275.082,"text":"內用或外用當然有一些行政缺失我們也要求他要改進所謂的行政缺失大概是什麼樣態沒關係沒有很多時間齁最近才去查查是針對三大電信公司還是包括有其他的我們先針對的是三大"},{"start":276.002,"end":295.797,"text":"所以現在如果有可能發生因為如果三大電信公司它本身規模很大然後它受制於很多的法律規範所以其實他們反而有很多事情是不會做或不敢做或者會依據法律的一些相關的制約可是如果是子公司跟孫公司就不一樣囉"},{"start":296.678,"end":305.341,"text":"所以就這些部分有很多過去其實都很喜歡去衍生很多的問題局長也在這裡有很多像很多的事件發生的時候很喜歡做推敲或者去延伸可是這個已經事實存在而且在電視公然王逸川已經公然說出來那我們也擔心你像這樣子比如說在集會的活動場域裡面其實它有很多很明顯的就是有人民的政治傾向"},{"start":325.367,"end":329.711,"text":"今天如果政治傾向在我們國內你可以掌握可是當對岸如果掌握這樣子的政治傾向的時候對人民會有什麼樣的危害比如說你去香港比如你去澳門或者甚至去中國大陸會有什麼樣的影響這些都在在顯示我們國安的一個漏洞不是只有三大電信業者你的子公司孫公司要怎麼管理這個我們希望很快的去把它的"},{"start":350.93,"end":354.113,"text":"以低規模的電信事業我們會對各自治安這部分我們會來瞭解會去檢查"},{"start":373.368,"end":394.839,"text":"除了了解跟檢查以外我們希望有具體的作為因為我們也擔心除了給王逸川以外因為民間的公司為了利益什麼不敢做有可能啊不是只針對哪些特定人士而已他可以給王逸川他是不是也可以給中共的國安部甚至也會放在習近平的桌子上所以這個部分我們希望可以徹查清楚"},{"start":395.379,"end":406.732,"text":"好兩位請回我們接下來再請教一下局長針對我們今天有所謂的一個就是我們看到有相關的那個人士從"},{"start":417.489,"end":439.841,"text":"我們的淡水河口其實直接上岸其實這是非常嚴重的一個國安的問題我們現在要說的這個破口最重要的是他是一個非常大的破口我們一直講說他是灰色地帶然後一直把它導向說我們還有哪一個設備不足我們還有需要買什麼東西包括像過去"},{"start":440.882,"end":466.472,"text":"一直發生的無人機侵擾的事件無人機我們不是沒有投錢我們已經超過十幾年以上我們投入了超過百億以上的預算其實在研發無人機在做無人機相關的不管是反制作為或無人機的研發等等其實我們都有做可是我們居然連最基本的一個大疆的無人機過來了我們一點辦法都沒有到現在還是"},{"start":468.349,"end":496.599,"text":"現在我們看到這一個他是一個很大的國安破口不是只是講講一個灰色地帶而已我們灰色地帶不是現在才發生欸110年台中也上來過一個啊那時候也是他自己報案他說他很冷他不知道有沒有印象結果他去報案的時候也是我們的民眾才去報案的才把他帶走110年就發生了可是我們現在這一次發生的更嚴重"},{"start":498.476,"end":526.897,"text":"比如說他曾經是有解放軍的背景而且他是自己上岸自己找人打電話以海軍的任務來說其實他這個作戰任務已經完全成功因為他所有的作戰參數他都已經取得了包括海象以當時的海象包括他的油料包括他的時間包括他的路程他可以"},{"start":527.637,"end":555.171,"text":"自己上岸而且他把整個過程都已經留過一遍他的資料已經刪除這針對一個任務來說他是已經完全成功這不是灰色地帶而且也不是懲處這樣這麼簡單上一次可以在台中這一次可以在我們台北下一次可能就在台南高雄這些作戰參數一個解放軍背景的人就已經可以完全掌握我們的國安破口非常嚴重 局長怎麼看"},{"start":556.831,"end":579.84,"text":"對,這個個案委員剛剛所指導的我想海巡署在這幾天的調查報告當中也都有進一步的去做一些澄清跟進一步的了解那就管局這邊來講我們會特別關注的是該員他有自述有解放軍的背景那這部分再結合到他這一次是用小艇來直接到我們的淡水漁港所以我們會了解到他的相關的動機以及相關的路徑委員剛剛所提到的是"},{"start":580.481,"end":590.583,"text":"這部分我們會再配合到海巡所調查的結果來做後續的包括是涉及中國大陸他的身份跟動機的底情"},{"start":592.685,"end":609.175,"text":"區長因為我們在近期已經發生非常多的國安相關的事件我想其實不是只有四張報告把它解決或者我們是等著其他的一個調查的結果或者等司法的判決結果其實這再再都沒有辦法改變我們現在發生的國安的這麼大的破口因為剛剛海巡說他們雖然懲處了可是這個事件"},{"start":618.186,"end":641.366,"text":"引發我們必須去非常重視的是其實他是自述說他有解放軍的背景我剛剛提到的他所有的作戰參數而且他是成功了到現在我們還不知道他到底是從大船去接駁轉程過來的還是他自己就一艘快艇直接過來到現在還沒有辦法掌握如果他是大船接駁那還有一個問題就是我們的雷達怎麼了"},{"start":644.449,"end":661.782,"text":"因為我們不管是國防部或海巡其實我們都花了非常多的預算建置這些相關的雷達的監控可是如果是大船我們居然沒有注意到那今天如果是一個快艇雷達雖然沒有辦法很清楚的掌握可是海巡6海里它都已經發現目標"},{"start":663.844,"end":679.356,"text":"依照經驗法則他判斷是漁船這個如果在海上有一個不明的目標這個在我們國軍來說他是一個黃色目標其實黃色目標是最危險的因為他不知道是底是有他不知道這到底是底艦還是有艦"},{"start":682.338,"end":682.538,"text":"今天如果說我們熱選項"},{"start":698.601,"end":706.867,"text":"他有可能用其他的冷卻的一些裝置來偽裝其實都可以達到最重要的是人我們現在發生的就是這樣你一而再再而三不斷的發生還包括我們可以跟政府高層錄音或者可以跟對岸女子可以交往可是都沒有後續的結果這對我們國安其實也產生很大的影響反而一直在追究沒有發生的事情已經發生的我們到底做了什麼局長你簡要的說明一下"},{"start":726.903,"end":743.559,"text":"我想這案子委員剛剛有提出一些重點第一個部分是在雷霆的掌握上有沒有問題那我剛剛有跟其他委員說明到能夠在六海里外掌握到這一艘7公尺的小艇已經算雷達的效能不錯第二個是在於有沒有空中的監視或辯證的機制那第三個是在於橫向的聯繫跟通報"},{"start":744.58,"end":759.657,"text":"第4個是在岸際的相關的監測的設施第5個是委員所提到的相關的人員的訓練有沒有精實可以來做現場的判斷跟通報我想大概這幾天在進行的一個檢討的作業有可以再進行的作為大概有以上這幾點"},{"start":761.19,"end":778.77,"text":"局長這個精進的作為已經講很久了就我從上一次的無人機還有更早之前算110年臺中發生的事情那時候你不是局長可是我們剛剛講的在近期也發生非常多你如果說雷打都可以發現這樣子的一個有抓到雷打很不錯那更糟"},{"start":779.611,"end":800.3,"text":"如果你雷達都抓到了結果我們人還讓他這麼安安全全的然後完全像沒事的人一樣就可以上岸這樣更糟我們花了那麼多錢到底為了什麼這必須要跟國人一個交代我們到現在國安的破口剛剛我提到的那幾件其實都沒有一件可以有具體的作為或調查的結果這個部分請國安局可以做具體的"},{"start":804.782,"end":824.692,"text":"一個相關的了解或者至少現在的進度怎麼樣應該提供給委員會或者我們相關的國人很清楚的知道好不好對我們會再跟海巡這邊來協同除了海巡以外我剛剛提到很多事喔這些部分我們希望都可以具體的把一些相關的進度把它讓國人很清楚的在國人面前把它攤開"},{"start":828.214,"end":828.394,"text":"謝謝馬委員、謝謝局長"},{"start":857.458,"end":858.868,"text":"我們下面請沈博洋委員"}]}}}}