{"id":153827,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153827","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819b4e896dfd11f9bbd59a48fe1a1d57c38a04e565a7cce14ef1929f9a8c62863435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:18:58 - 10:29:35","影片長度":"00:10:37","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:18:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:29:35+08:00","duration":637,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":343,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時18分）謝謝主席，有請局長跟中華電信好了，謝謝。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：局長好。因為今天的題目是在講國安局對於國安資訊是怎麼定義的，但是剛剛前面又發生很多事情，剛剛其實局長講得很好，就是說第五縱隊是一個不容易定性、很模糊的概念，這個也是我一直主張的，所以我不知道剛剛黃仁委員在講什麼，但無論如何，我們對於風險高低這件事情是真的需要去認定。","剛好今天早上有一個新聞，所以我想先從這個新聞談起，這一次是在虎尾，之前一直都會有人說什麼到底武器要不要放在虎尾那邊什麼等等的爭議，在選舉前一週的時候，虎尾鎮的民眾有收到一個簡訊說危險！虎尾會設導彈基地，一旦爆炸，方圓10公里將無人倖存，不知道局長還記不記得這件事情？有一陣子了。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：結果今天地檢署出了一份應該是不起訴，這個不起訴裡面就有提到，發現這一個發簡訊的門號是由「上海創藍雲智信息科技股份有限公司」去向臺灣的一個叫互動公司承租，所以看起來它是由這個公司承租之後再發簡訊，所以我看起來……因為它寫得不是很清楚，但看起來是企業簡訊，就是那一類的企業簡訊。","這邊其實跟今天的題目非常有關係，第一個，顯然這是一個中國的公司，結果在選舉前發送簡訊，這是一個很大的問題；第二個是因為它發送的只有在虎尾鎮，因為只有在虎尾鎮，它只有兩個方式，一個就是它行動基地臺直接設在那邊，但我想它應該不是這樣子，因為它都已經透過這家互動公司了，另外一個情形應該就是它掌握了虎尾鎮這邊的門號資訊，所以它才知道要發給誰。","所以第一個想先問的是，因為這是今天才看到的，這件事情的掌握度如何？第二個是想問中華電信像這一種，因為企業簡訊是合法的，所以像這種情形如果再度發生，它的確已經干擾了我們的選舉，破壞臺灣的民主制度。那以後我們應該要如何應處？"],["蔡局長明彥：先就國安的角度跟委員說明跟報告，是不是再請中華電信補充說明？"],["沈委員伯洋：對，沒問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：因為它發生的時間點確實是在選舉之前，我們注意到中共現在的對臺介選的手法越來越細緻化，所以以這個案例來講，可以發現到它是針對虎尾當地比較引起關注的基地設置的問題，來操作相關的錯假訊息跟爭議訊息，這大概是第一部分。","那第二部分是它傳播錯假訊息的主要管道跟手法，有的當然是在網路上來進行，有的是透過手機簡訊來進行，因為這有涉及到部分的商業活動，所以這部分是不是容許我請中華電信來做說明？"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，中華電信提供的是通訊服務，所以在網路上端到端這些通訊服務的內容，在中華電信公司這邊，我們是無權也不會去做相關的檢視。但是比如說簡訊這個部分，像近期我們配合主管機關，依照主管機關的指導去做打詐、堵詐相關的防制，對於相關的事項，如果依法令需要中華電信配合的地方，我想我們會完全協助來做處理。但還是要再重複的跟委員報告，中華電信是通訊服務的公司，我們對內容是不會去做檢視的。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個我知道，就是以中華電信的角度，因為中華電信畢竟是以提供服務為主，它等於是在利用我們這些任何可以提供的服務去遂行這件事情，所以我覺得這件事情可能需要後續的追蹤，剛好今天透過卓冠廷議員把這一個po出來，我們才知道這件事情，這是第一個。","所以我覺得我們必須要認清一件事情，就是臺灣人的個資是一定有被蒐集的，那臺灣人的個資被蒐集、最主要蒐集的對象是誰？監控是誰？我覺得我們常常會搞錯整體討論的方向，中國在蒐集臺灣的資訊才是最無遠弗屆的，我們今天在暗網上面看到的那一些2,300萬的資料，又或者健保相關的資料，那是中國駭客放上去的，所以當這些資料能夠被取得，或者說有任何的商業用途被拿走的時候，這個時候其實是中國可以利用這樣的情勢，不管今天是在戰爭爆發的時候或者在選舉的時候，它都可以做相關的一些利用。","所以，第一件事情，我現在想再問，國安的這個部分我先稍微跳過，因為剛好中華電信在這裡，我想問一下，因為中華電信自己的廣告上也提到有「人潮客群分析平台」的服務，螢幕上這些服務都是中華電信寫的；至於遠傳的部分，在站內用戶行為追蹤的個人化的第二行這邊有寫到「亦可瞭解單一用戶並整合ID Unification」，我覺得這個很正常啦，他自己都有IMSI嘛，他有SIM卡的資訊啦。所以我想問一下，之前在其他場域質詢的時候都有問中華電信有沒有把這些資料提供給政黨或提供給什麼，因為中華電信的確有這些資料，請問可不可以在這邊再說明一次？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，就單一事件而言，我想中華電信的回復都是一樣的，沒有；就人流分析的部分，也再跟委員報告，我們一定是去識別化之後做的數據分析應用，所以不會有涉及到個資的議題。"],["沈委員伯洋：下一個問題就是說，在去識別化的狀況之下，有沒有辦法做不同場域的比較？因為你已經去識別化了嘛，去識別化了之後，譬如說，發生在A地跟發生在B地的人有沒有重疊？這個按照你們本來提供的服務是有辦法去做比對的嘛。"],["林副總經理文智：這個部分，因為去識別化以後，基本上是輪廓資料，有關於輪廓資料的比對，我想就會是輪廓上的比對，不會是個人資訊上這些方向跟內容的比對。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以至少會有輪廓的比對嘛。"],["林副總經理文智：對，輪廓的部分，就像大家在做一般性的數據分析，總會對自己辦的活動，每一次的event……"],["沈委員伯洋：性別、年齡之類的。"],["林副總經理文智：去做一下成效的比較。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來，要特定到個人，其實我認為這不應該是中華電信能夠做的事情，目前在這個資訊世界裡面能夠做到這些事情的，其實比較多的是外面的廣告公司啦，因為外面的這些廣告公司都會透過任何的服務去購買資料。譬如說手遊；又譬如看天氣的app，這些都會取得很多手機上其他的資訊；Android ID在某個版本之前甚至是可以被拿到的；還有Device ID等等之類的，更不要說早期要還可以拿IMEI，現在沒有辦法拿到，很多服務的公司取得這樣的資料之後會賣給第三方的廣告公司。所以目前我在檯面上看到的，能夠分析的比中華電信更精細的其實都是第三方的廣告公司。所以這邊反過來講，我是想要問局長，現在廣告公司掌握的這些資料其實比我們的三大電信還要來得更多，就是那種第三方的廣告公司，它不一定是哪一個國家的，有可能是跨國的企業，對於這種第三方廣告公司，我們國安單位當然不可能直接跟他們合作，這是一定的，但是這些第三方廣告公司如果去跟中國合作，讓我們的個資大量的被中國掌握，這件事情我們應該要怎麼防？"],["蔡局長明彥：對電信公司來講，他們對於客戶用戶資料的處理還是要依照我們自己國內的相關法規來進行，這部分假如有相關情資的話，我們當然也會跟相關的調查機關或檢察機關來進行舉發，當然這部分必須要具體的證據。比較擔心的是現在中共對於網路侵害的手法也是越來越積極，技術也不斷的在進階，這部分是我們比較擔心的，也就是說，除了政府部門以外，民間私有公司怎麼樣來強化自己的資安作為，讓資安的環境更具有韌性，避免用戶資料可能遭到對岸以網駭的手法來竊取，這或許是我們另外一個必須要來關注的角度。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，因為目前打詐四法的推出，對於一些廣告公司有一定的規範，但怕就是怕有些廣告公司在臺灣是完全沒有落地的。雖然這次有一些落地的條款，但只是半落地，如果說今天的服務甚至是中國提供的，因為臺灣其實很多人是使用中國的服務，所以他的個資會直接被中國拿走，我認為這可能才是我們現在必須面臨的困境。這件事情到底要怎麼做，我覺得這個可能是質詢二、三十分鐘都講不完的地方，所以我先打住在這裡。","最後只是想問一下，符合今天的題目，就是以目前來講，國安資訊如何定義？我看到在報告上面也有提到通訊保障及監察法第七條，也就是說，譬如像我們今天有一些社會運動什麼等等之類的，民間企業就像剛剛所講的，會做這些人流分析、輪廓分析等等之類的，以國安局的角度來講，最主要都是以通保法第七條為主……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：除了這個以外呢？譬如說今天大家都在談青鳥行動，以國安局的角度來講，什麼資料是你們有可能會去做的？有什麼事情是你們絕對不會去做的？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，主要涉及到的還是要依照法律規範的一些規定來進行我們相關的，就是在通訊保障跟監察法授權下所進行的通訊監察，就這個部分來講，所謂涉及到國安的資訊，主要涉及到的有境外敵對勢力以及他的協力者可能在境外、境內以及跨境的相關活動資訊，這些活動資訊可能會傷害到國家利益跟安全，有涉及到這一部分的問題的話，我們才會來進行非常嚴格的個案審核，審核完之後，再送請高等法院來進行裁核，可以的話才會由本人，也就是國安局局長來發放相關的通訊監察書給司法警察機關，所以大概的作業流程還相當的嚴謹。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，看起來這個應該不是一個與境外敵對勢力有關的案件啦。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，並不是。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝局長，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：待會洪申翰委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘。","現在請王定宇召委上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"153827","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153827","tool":"pyannote","id":"153827-pyannote"},"job_id":"k9pLUAEZhdsxE50p","queued_at":"2024-06-12 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\"text\": \"所以像這種情形如果再度發生它的確已經干擾了我們的選舉這是破壞台灣的民主制度那以後我們應該要如何應處\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 139.668, \"end\": 139.788, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 139.788, \"end\": 140.028, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 140.028, \"end\": 140.609, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 140.609, \"end\": 140.789, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"形\", \"start\": 140.789, \"end\": 140.949, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 140.949, \"end\": 141.089, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 141.089, \"end\": 141.249, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 141.249, \"end\": 141.429, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 141.429, \"end\": 141.81, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 141.81, \"end\": 141.95, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 141.95, \"end\": 142.15, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 142.15, \"end\": 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{\"start\": 301.164, \"end\": 325.577, \"text\": \"中華電信自己的廣告上面也有提到有人潮客群的分析平台的服務然後這邊都是中華電信寫的那遠傳這邊甚至有寫到說在個人化的第二行這邊可瞭解單一用戶並整合ID的unification那這個我覺得是很正常的他自己都有IMSI嘛他有SIM卡的資訊然後呢後面這邊不對這邊是放遠傳的所以我想問一下就是說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 301.164, \"end\": 301.544, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"華\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 301.544, \"end\": 301.764, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 301.764, \"end\": 301.964, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 301.964, \"end\": 302.105, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 302.105, \"end\": 302.405, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"廣\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 302.405, \"end\": 302.565, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 302.565, \"end\": 302.725, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 302.725, \"end\": 302.925, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 302.925, \"end\": 303.025, \"score\": 0.721}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 303.025, \"end\": 303.205, 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{\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 323.696, \"end\": 324.196, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"遠\"}, {\"word\": \"傳\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 324.196, \"end\": 324.716, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 324.716, \"end\": 324.796, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 324.796, \"end\": 324.816, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 324.816, \"end\": 324.896, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 324.896, \"end\": 325.176, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 325.176, \"end\": 325.277, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 325.277, \"end\": 325.457, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 325.457, \"end\": 325.557, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 325.557, \"end\": 325.577, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"說\"}]}, {\"start\": 326.317, \"end\": 328.018, \"text\": \"跟委員報告就單一事件而言我想中華電信的回覆都是一樣的沒有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 326.317, \"end\": 326.437, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 326.437, \"end\": 326.537, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 326.537, \"end\": 326.557, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 326.557, \"end\": 326.577, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 326.577, \"end\": 326.597, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 326.597, \"end\": 326.697, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 326.697, \"end\": 326.837, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 326.837, \"end\": 326.857, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 326.857, \"end\": 326.957, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 326.957, \"end\": 327.057, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 327.057, \"end\": 327.077, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 327.077, \"end\": 327.137, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"華\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 327.137, \"end\": 327.238, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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00:00:32,272\n沈委員好局長好那今天剛好呢一開始因為今天的題目是在講說國安局對於這個國安資訊是怎麼定義那但是剛剛前面又發生很多事情所以也是剛剛其實局長講得很好就是說第五中對是一個不容易定性很模糊的概念在華人委員這個也是我一直主張的所以我不知道他剛剛在講什麼\n\n3\n00:00:33,392 --> 00:00:57,584\n但無論如何其實我們對於風險高低這件事情是真的是需要去認定那剛好今天早上有一個新聞所以我想說先從這個新聞談起就是說這一次是在這個湖尾湖尾之前一直都會有說什麼到底武器要不要發在那邊啊什麼等等的爭議那在這一個選舉前一週的時候湖尾的這個湖尾鎮的民眾有收到一個簡訊說危險\n\n4\n00:00:59,545 --> 00:01:16,751\n胡偉設導彈基地一旦爆炸方圓10公里將無人倖存不知道局長還記不記得這件事情有一陣子了結果今天地檢署出了一份應該是不起訴這個不起訴裡面就有提到說發現\n\n5\n00:01:18,491 --> 00:01:33,192\n這一個門號就是說發簡訊的這一個是由上海創蘭雲智信息科技股份有限公司去向台灣的一個叫互動公司承租所以看起來他是由這個承租之後然後再發簡訊\n\n6\n00:01:34,173 --> 00:01:52,789\n所以我看起來因為他寫得不是很清楚但看起來是企業簡訊就是那一類的企業簡訊那所以呢這邊其實跟今天的題目非常有關係第一個就是顯然這是一個中國的公司結果在選舉權發送簡訊這是一個很大的問題第二個就是因為他發送的只有在胡偉正\n\n7\n00:01:53,590 --> 00:02:19,208\n他只有在胡偉正他只有兩個方式一個就是他行動基地台直接背在那邊但我想他應該不是這樣子嘛因為他既然都已經透過這家叫互動公司了另外一個情形應該就是他掌握了胡偉正這邊的門號的資訊所以他才知道要發給誰所以第一個先想問就是說這件事情呢因為這今天才看到的就是事前的掌握度如何第二個就是想問中華電信就是說像這種因為企業簡訊其實是合法的\n\n8\n00:02:19,668 --> 00:02:27,074\n所以像這種情形如果再度發生它的確已經干擾了我們的選舉這是破壞台灣的民主制度那以後我們應該要如何應處\n\n9\n00:02:27,850 --> 00:02:57,223\n好,先就國安的角度跟委員說明跟報告那是不是再請中華電信局局長說明那就因為它發生的時間點確實是在選舉之前那我們注意到在中共現在的對台借選的手法當中它越來越細緻化所以以這個案例來講可以發現到它是針對湖北當地比較引起關注的基地設置的問題來操作相關的錯假訊息跟爭議訊息這大概是第一部分那第二部分就是變成是它傳播錯假訊息的主要的管道跟手法\n\n10\n00:02:57,503 --> 00:03:23,485\n那有的當然是在網路上來進行那有的是透過手機簡訊來進行那因為這有涉及到部分的商業活動所以這部分我是不是容許我請中華電信來做說明好謝謝跟各位報告齁我想中華電信提供的是通訊服務齁所以在網路上端到端這些通訊的服務的內容在中華電信公司這邊我們是無權也不會去做相關的這個檢視但是在比如說\n\n11\n00:03:24,926 --> 00:03:51,594\n簡訊這一個部分向近期我們配合那個跟主管機關依照主管機關指導去做相關的這一個打詐上面賭詐的這個防治所以相關的事項如果在依法令需要中華電信配合的地方我想我們會完全協助來做處理這一個事情但是還是要再重複的跟委員報告中華電信是通訊服務的公司我們對內容是不會去做檢視的\n\n12\n00:03:52,794 --> 00:04:16,948\n這個我知道就是說以中華電信的角度因為畢竟中華電信是以提供服務為主那它等於是在利用我們這些任何可以提供的服務去遂行這件事情所以我覺得這件事情可能是需要後續的追蹤那剛好透過卓冠廷議員今天把這一個PO出來我們才知道了這件事情那這是第一個所以我覺得我們必須要認清一件事情就是台灣人的個資是一定有被蒐集的\n\n13\n00:04:17,828 --> 00:04:34,934\n那台灣的各自被搜集最主要搜集的對象是誰?監控是誰?我覺得我們常常會搞錯那整體討論的方向中國在搜集台灣的資訊才是最無遠弗屆的我們今天在暗網上面看到的那一些2300萬的資料又或者健保相關的資料\n\n14\n00:04:35,734 --> 00:05:00,304\n那是中國駭客放上去的所以當這些資料能夠被取得或者說有任何的商業用途被拿走的時候呢這個時候呢其實是中國可以利用這樣的情勢不管今天是在戰爭爆發的時候或在選舉的時候大家都可以做相關的一些利用所以呢第一件事情我現在想再問這個國安的這個部分我先稍微跳過因為剛好中華電信在這裡我想問一下就是說因為這邊呢\n\n15\n00:05:01,164 --> 00:05:25,577\n中華電信自己的廣告上面也有提到有人潮客群的分析平台的服務然後這邊都是中華電信寫的那遠傳這邊甚至有寫到說在個人化的第二行這邊可瞭解單一用戶並整合ID的unification那這個我覺得是很正常的他自己都有IMSI嘛他有SIM卡的資訊然後呢後面這邊不對這邊是放遠傳的所以我想問一下就是說\n\n16\n00:05:26,317 --> 00:05:28,018\n跟委員報告就單一事件而言我想中華電信的回覆都是一樣的沒有\n\n17\n00:05:45,787 --> 00:06:13,007\n這一個人流分析的部分也在跟委員報告我們一定是去識別化之後做的數據分析應用所以不會有涉及到各自的議題那下一個問題就是說在去識別化的狀況之下那有沒有辦法做不同場域的比較因為你已經去識別化了嘛那去識別化了之後呢比如說發生在AD跟發生在BD的人有沒有重疊這個按照你們本來的提供服務是有辦法去做比對的嗎\n\n18\n00:06:14,436 --> 00:06:38,356\n這個部分去識別的話基本上是輪廓資料所以輪廓資料的這個比對呢我想就會是輪廓上的比對不會是個人資訊上這些方向跟內容的比對所以至少會有輪廓的比對嗎對,輪廓的部分就像大家在做一般性的數據分析總會對自己辦的活動每一次的event去做一下性別、年齡等這些比較\n\n19\n00:06:39,777 --> 00:06:54,349\n再來要特定到個人其實我認為這不應該是中華電信能夠做的事情但目前在我們就是說已在這個資訊世界裡面能夠做到這件事情的其實比較多的是外面的廣告公司因為外面的這些廣告公司都會透過\n\n20\n00:06:54,969 --> 00:06:55,249\n有限公司列席\n\n21\n00:07:10,086 --> 00:07:28,622\n更不要說早期還可以拿IMEI那現在沒有辦法拿到所以廣告公司會取得很多這樣的資料之後很多服務的公司取得這個資料之後會賣給第三方的廣告公司所以目前我在檯面上看到的能夠分析的比中華電信更精細的其實都是第三方的廣告公司\n\n22\n00:07:29,502 --> 00:07:58,064\n所以這邊其實反過來講是想要問這個局長這一邊就是說現在廣告公司掌握這些資料其實比我們的三大電信還要來得更多就那種第三方的廣告公司而且它不一定是哪一個國家的它有可能是跨國的企業那這種第三方廣告公司呢我們當然國安單位不可能直接跟他們合作這是一定的但是這些第三方的廣告公司它如果去跟中國合作讓我們的個資大量的被中國掌握這件事情我們應該要怎麼防\n\n23\n00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:13,032\n對於電信公司來講他們對於客戶用戶資料的處理還是要依照我們自己國內的相關的法規來進行那這部分我們當然也會假如相關的情資的話也會跟相關的調查機關或檢查機關來進行舉發\n\n24\n00:08:16,095 --> 00:08:17,196\n對於一些廣告公司有一定的規範\n\n25\n00:08:46,030 --> 00:09:02,007\n但怕就是怕說有些廣告公司在台灣是完全沒有落地的那雖然這次有一些落地的條款但只是辦落地那如果說今天服務甚至是中國提供的因為台灣其實很多人是使用中國的服務所以他的個資會直接被中國拿走我認為這個可能才是我們現在必須面臨的困境\n\n26\n00:09:02,628 --> 00:09:19,043\n那這件事情到底要怎麼做我覺得這個可能是質詢二三十分鐘都講不完的地方所以我先打住在這裡那最後只是想問一下就是說符合今天的題目就是說就是目前來講我們國安資訊的這個定義啦我看到這個在報告上面也有提到就是通訊保安監察法第7條啦\n\n27\n00:09:19,944 --> 00:09:41,393\n所以也就是說譬如說像我們今天這個有一些社會運動啊什麼等等之類的民間企業當然像剛剛講的會做這些人流分析啊輪廓分析等等之類的那以國安局的角度來講呢最主要都是以這個通報法第7條為主那除了這個以外呢就是說譬如說好今天大家都在談這個清療行動以國安局的角度來講是什麼資料是你們有可能會去做的有什麼事情是你們絕對不會去做的\n\n28\n00:09:42,433 --> 00:10:04,012\n主要涉及到還是要依照法律的規範的一些規定來進行我們相關的通訊保障跟監察法授權底下所進行的通訊檢查那就這部分來講涉及到國安的資訊主要涉及到是有境外敵對勢力以及他的協力者可能在境外境內以及跨境的相關的活動資訊而這些活動資訊可能會傷害到國家利益跟安全\n\n29\n00:10:04,412 --> 00:10:28,550\n那有涉及到這一部分的問題的話,我們才會來進行非常嚴格的個案的審核。審核完之後再送請到高等法院來進行採核。可以的話才會由本人,也就是國安局局長來發放相關的通訊檢查書給司法警察機關。所以大概的作業流程還相當的嚴謹。那看起來這個應該不是跟一個境外敵對勢力有關的一個案件。對,是,並不是。好,謝謝局長,那謝謝主席。好,謝謝。\n\n30\n00:10:33,048 --> 00:10:35,602\n待會兒洪聖翰委員質詢完畢以後\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1040\t5285\t謝謝主席,有請局長跟中華電信好了,謝謝。\n13347\t32272\t沈委員好局長好那今天剛好呢一開始因為今天的題目是在講說國安局對於這個國安資訊是怎麼定義那但是剛剛前面又發生很多事情所以也是剛剛其實局長講得很好就是說第五中對是一個不容易定性很模糊的概念在華人委員這個也是我一直主張的所以我不知道他剛剛在講什麼\n33392\t57584\t但無論如何其實我們對於風險高低這件事情是真的是需要去認定那剛好今天早上有一個新聞所以我想說先從這個新聞談起就是說這一次是在這個湖尾湖尾之前一直都會有說什麼到底武器要不要發在那邊啊什麼等等的爭議那在這一個選舉前一週的時候湖尾的這個湖尾鎮的民眾有收到一個簡訊說危險\n59545\t76751\t胡偉設導彈基地一旦爆炸方圓10公里將無人倖存不知道局長還記不記得這件事情有一陣子了結果今天地檢署出了一份應該是不起訴這個不起訴裡面就有提到說發現\n78491\t93192\t這一個門號就是說發簡訊的這一個是由上海創蘭雲智信息科技股份有限公司去向台灣的一個叫互動公司承租所以看起來他是由這個承租之後然後再發簡訊\n94173\t112789\t所以我看起來因為他寫得不是很清楚但看起來是企業簡訊就是那一類的企業簡訊那所以呢這邊其實跟今天的題目非常有關係第一個就是顯然這是一個中國的公司結果在選舉權發送簡訊這是一個很大的問題第二個就是因為他發送的只有在胡偉正\n113590\t139208\t他只有在胡偉正他只有兩個方式一個就是他行動基地台直接背在那邊但我想他應該不是這樣子嘛因為他既然都已經透過這家叫互動公司了另外一個情形應該就是他掌握了胡偉正這邊的門號的資訊所以他才知道要發給誰所以第一個先想問就是說這件事情呢因為這今天才看到的就是事前的掌握度如何第二個就是想問中華電信就是說像這種因為企業簡訊其實是合法的\n139668\t147074\t所以像這種情形如果再度發生它的確已經干擾了我們的選舉這是破壞台灣的民主制度那以後我們應該要如何應處\n147850\t177223\t好,先就國安的角度跟委員說明跟報告那是不是再請中華電信局局長說明那就因為它發生的時間點確實是在選舉之前那我們注意到在中共現在的對台借選的手法當中它越來越細緻化所以以這個案例來講可以發現到它是針對湖北當地比較引起關注的基地設置的問題來操作相關的錯假訊息跟爭議訊息這大概是第一部分那第二部分就是變成是它傳播錯假訊息的主要的管道跟手法\n177503\t203485\t那有的當然是在網路上來進行那有的是透過手機簡訊來進行那因為這有涉及到部分的商業活動所以這部分我是不是容許我請中華電信來做說明好 謝謝跟各位報告齁我想中華電信提供的是通訊服務齁所以在網路上端到端這些通訊的服務的內容在中華電信公司這邊我們是無權也不會去做相關的這個檢視但是在比如說\n204926\t231594\t簡訊這一個部分向近期我們配合那個跟主管機關依照主管機關指導去做相關的這一個打詐上面賭詐的這個防治所以相關的事項如果在依法令需要中華電信配合的地方我想我們會完全協助來做處理這一個事情但是還是要再重複的跟委員報告中華電信是通訊服務的公司我們對內容是不會去做檢視的\n232794\t256948\t這個我知道就是說以中華電信的角度因為畢竟中華電信是以提供服務為主那它等於是在利用我們這些任何可以提供的服務去遂行這件事情所以我覺得這件事情可能是需要後續的追蹤那剛好透過卓冠廷議員今天把這一個PO出來我們才知道了這件事情那這是第一個所以我覺得我們必須要認清一件事情就是台灣人的個資是一定有被蒐集的\n257828\t274934\t那台灣的各自被搜集最主要搜集的對象是誰?監控是誰?我覺得我們常常會搞錯那整體討論的方向中國在搜集台灣的資訊才是最無遠弗屆的我們今天在暗網上面看到的那一些2300萬的資料又或者健保相關的資料\n275734\t300304\t那是中國駭客放上去的所以當這些資料能夠被取得或者說有任何的商業用途被拿走的時候呢這個時候呢其實是中國可以利用這樣的情勢不管今天是在戰爭爆發的時候或在選舉的時候大家都可以做相關的一些利用所以呢第一件事情我現在想再問這個國安的這個部分我先稍微跳過因為剛好中華電信在這裡我想問一下就是說因為這邊呢\n301164\t325577\t中華電信自己的廣告上面也有提到有人潮客群的分析平台的服務然後這邊都是中華電信寫的那遠傳這邊甚至有寫到說在個人化的第二行這邊可瞭解單一用戶並整合ID的unification那這個我覺得是很正常的他自己都有IMSI嘛他有SIM卡的資訊然後呢後面這邊不對這邊是放遠傳的所以我想問一下就是說\n326317\t328018\t跟委員報告就單一事件而言我想中華電信的回覆都是一樣的沒有\n345787\t373007\t這一個人流分析的部分也在跟委員報告我們一定是去識別化之後做的數據分析應用所以不會有涉及到各自的議題那下一個問題就是說在去識別化的狀況之下那有沒有辦法做不同場域的比較因為你已經去識別化了嘛那去識別化了之後呢比如說發生在AD跟發生在BD的人有沒有重疊這個按照你們本來的提供服務是有辦法去做比對的嗎\n374436\t398356\t這個部分去識別的話基本上是輪廓資料所以輪廓資料的這個比對呢我想就會是輪廓上的比對不會是個人資訊上這些方向跟內容的比對所以至少會有輪廓的比對嗎對,輪廓的部分就像大家在做一般性的數據分析總會對自己辦的活動每一次的event去做一下性別、年齡等這些比較\n399777\t414349\t再來要特定到個人其實我認為這不應該是中華電信能夠做的事情但目前在我們就是說已在這個資訊世界裡面能夠做到這件事情的其實比較多的是外面的廣告公司因為外面的這些廣告公司都會透過\n414969\t415249\t有限公司列席\n430086\t448622\t更不要說早期還可以拿IMEI那現在沒有辦法拿到所以廣告公司會取得很多這樣的資料之後很多服務的公司取得這個資料之後會賣給第三方的廣告公司所以目前我在檯面上看到的能夠分析的比中華電信更精細的其實都是第三方的廣告公司\n449502\t478064\t所以這邊其實反過來講是想要問這個局長這一邊就是說現在廣告公司掌握這些資料其實比我們的三大電信還要來得更多就那種第三方的廣告公司而且它不一定是哪一個國家的它有可能是跨國的企業那這種第三方廣告公司呢我們當然國安單位不可能直接跟他們合作這是一定的但是這些第三方的廣告公司它如果去跟中國合作讓我們的個資大量的被中國掌握這件事情我們應該要怎麼防\n479840\t493032\t對於電信公司來講他們對於客戶用戶資料的處理還是要依照我們自己國內的相關的法規來進行那這部分我們當然也會假如相關的情資的話也會跟相關的調查機關或檢查機關來進行舉發\n496095\t497196\t對於一些廣告公司有一定的規範\n526030\t542007\t但怕就是怕說有些廣告公司在台灣是完全沒有落地的那雖然這次有一些落地的條款但只是辦落地那如果說今天服務甚至是中國提供的因為台灣其實很多人是使用中國的服務所以他的個資會直接被中國拿走我認為這個可能才是我們現在必須面臨的困境\n542628\t559043\t那這件事情到底要怎麼做我覺得這個可能是質詢二三十分鐘都講不完的地方所以我先打住在這裡那最後只是想問一下就是說符合今天的題目就是說就是目前來講我們國安資訊的這個定義啦我看到這個在報告上面也有提到就是通訊保安監察法第7條啦\n559944\t581393\t所以也就是說譬如說像我們今天這個有一些社會運動啊什麼等等之類的民間企業當然像剛剛講的會做這些人流分析啊輪廓分析等等之類的那以國安局的角度來講呢最主要都是以這個通報法第7條為主那除了這個以外呢就是說譬如說好今天大家都在談這個清療行動以國安局的角度來講是什麼資料是你們有可能會去做的有什麼事情是你們絕對不會去做的\n582433\t604012\t主要涉及到還是要依照法律的規範的一些規定來進行我們相關的通訊保障跟監察法授權底下所進行的通訊檢查那就這部分來講涉及到國安的資訊主要涉及到是有境外敵對勢力以及他的協力者可能在境外境內以及跨境的相關的活動資訊而這些活動資訊可能會傷害到國家利益跟安全\n604412\t628550\t那有涉及到這一部分的問題的話,我們才會來進行非常嚴格的個案的審核。審核完之後再送請到高等法院來進行採核。可以的話才會由本人,也就是國安局局長來發放相關的通訊檢查書給司法警察機關。所以大概的作業流程還相當的嚴謹。那看起來這個應該不是跟一個境外敵對勢力有關的一個案件。對,是,並不是。好,謝謝局長,那謝謝主席。好,謝謝。\n633048\t635602\t待會兒洪聖翰委員質詢完畢以後\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請局長跟中華電信好了,謝謝。\n沈委員好局長好那今天剛好呢一開始因為今天的題目是在講說國安局對於這個國安資訊是怎麼定義那但是剛剛前面又發生很多事情所以也是剛剛其實局長講得很好就是說第五中對是一個不容易定性很模糊的概念在華人委員這個也是我一直主張的所以我不知道他剛剛在講什麼\n但無論如何其實我們對於風險高低這件事情是真的是需要去認定那剛好今天早上有一個新聞所以我想說先從這個新聞談起就是說這一次是在這個湖尾湖尾之前一直都會有說什麼到底武器要不要發在那邊啊什麼等等的爭議那在這一個選舉前一週的時候湖尾的這個湖尾鎮的民眾有收到一個簡訊說危險\n胡偉設導彈基地一旦爆炸方圓10公里將無人倖存不知道局長還記不記得這件事情有一陣子了結果今天地檢署出了一份應該是不起訴這個不起訴裡面就有提到說發現\n這一個門號就是說發簡訊的這一個是由上海創蘭雲智信息科技股份有限公司去向台灣的一個叫互動公司承租所以看起來他是由這個承租之後然後再發簡訊\n所以我看起來因為他寫得不是很清楚但看起來是企業簡訊就是那一類的企業簡訊那所以呢這邊其實跟今天的題目非常有關係第一個就是顯然這是一個中國的公司結果在選舉權發送簡訊這是一個很大的問題第二個就是因為他發送的只有在胡偉正\n他只有在胡偉正他只有兩個方式一個就是他行動基地台直接背在那邊但我想他應該不是這樣子嘛因為他既然都已經透過這家叫互動公司了另外一個情形應該就是他掌握了胡偉正這邊的門號的資訊所以他才知道要發給誰所以第一個先想問就是說這件事情呢因為這今天才看到的就是事前的掌握度如何第二個就是想問中華電信就是說像這種因為企業簡訊其實是合法的\n所以像這種情形如果再度發生它的確已經干擾了我們的選舉這是破壞台灣的民主制度那以後我們應該要如何應處\n好,先就國安的角度跟委員說明跟報告那是不是再請中華電信局局長說明那就因為它發生的時間點確實是在選舉之前那我們注意到在中共現在的對台借選的手法當中它越來越細緻化所以以這個案例來講可以發現到它是針對湖北當地比較引起關注的基地設置的問題來操作相關的錯假訊息跟爭議訊息這大概是第一部分那第二部分就是變成是它傳播錯假訊息的主要的管道跟手法\n那有的當然是在網路上來進行那有的是透過手機簡訊來進行那因為這有涉及到部分的商業活動所以這部分我是不是容許我請中華電信來做說明好 謝謝跟各位報告齁我想中華電信提供的是通訊服務齁所以在網路上端到端這些通訊的服務的內容在中華電信公司這邊我們是無權也不會去做相關的這個檢視但是在比如說\n簡訊這一個部分向近期我們配合那個跟主管機關依照主管機關指導去做相關的這一個打詐上面賭詐的這個防治所以相關的事項如果在依法令需要中華電信配合的地方我想我們會完全協助來做處理這一個事情但是還是要再重複的跟委員報告中華電信是通訊服務的公司我們對內容是不會去做檢視的\n這個我知道就是說以中華電信的角度因為畢竟中華電信是以提供服務為主那它等於是在利用我們這些任何可以提供的服務去遂行這件事情所以我覺得這件事情可能是需要後續的追蹤那剛好透過卓冠廷議員今天把這一個PO出來我們才知道了這件事情那這是第一個所以我覺得我們必須要認清一件事情就是台灣人的個資是一定有被蒐集的\n那台灣的各自被搜集最主要搜集的對象是誰?監控是誰?我覺得我們常常會搞錯那整體討論的方向中國在搜集台灣的資訊才是最無遠弗屆的我們今天在暗網上面看到的那一些2300萬的資料又或者健保相關的資料\n那是中國駭客放上去的所以當這些資料能夠被取得或者說有任何的商業用途被拿走的時候呢這個時候呢其實是中國可以利用這樣的情勢不管今天是在戰爭爆發的時候或在選舉的時候大家都可以做相關的一些利用所以呢第一件事情我現在想再問這個國安的這個部分我先稍微跳過因為剛好中華電信在這裡我想問一下就是說因為這邊呢\n中華電信自己的廣告上面也有提到有人潮客群的分析平台的服務然後這邊都是中華電信寫的那遠傳這邊甚至有寫到說在個人化的第二行這邊可瞭解單一用戶並整合ID的unification那這個我覺得是很正常的他自己都有IMSI嘛他有SIM卡的資訊然後呢後面這邊不對這邊是放遠傳的所以我想問一下就是說\n跟委員報告就單一事件而言我想中華電信的回覆都是一樣的沒有\n這一個人流分析的部分也在跟委員報告我們一定是去識別化之後做的數據分析應用所以不會有涉及到各自的議題那下一個問題就是說在去識別化的狀況之下那有沒有辦法做不同場域的比較因為你已經去識別化了嘛那去識別化了之後呢比如說發生在AD跟發生在BD的人有沒有重疊這個按照你們本來的提供服務是有辦法去做比對的嗎\n這個部分去識別的話基本上是輪廓資料所以輪廓資料的這個比對呢我想就會是輪廓上的比對不會是個人資訊上這些方向跟內容的比對所以至少會有輪廓的比對嗎對,輪廓的部分就像大家在做一般性的數據分析總會對自己辦的活動每一次的event去做一下性別、年齡等這些比較\n再來要特定到個人其實我認為這不應該是中華電信能夠做的事情但目前在我們就是說已在這個資訊世界裡面能夠做到這件事情的其實比較多的是外面的廣告公司因為外面的這些廣告公司都會透過\n有限公司列席\n更不要說早期還可以拿IMEI那現在沒有辦法拿到所以廣告公司會取得很多這樣的資料之後很多服務的公司取得這個資料之後會賣給第三方的廣告公司所以目前我在檯面上看到的能夠分析的比中華電信更精細的其實都是第三方的廣告公司\n所以這邊其實反過來講是想要問這個局長這一邊就是說現在廣告公司掌握這些資料其實比我們的三大電信還要來得更多就那種第三方的廣告公司而且它不一定是哪一個國家的它有可能是跨國的企業那這種第三方廣告公司呢我們當然國安單位不可能直接跟他們合作這是一定的但是這些第三方的廣告公司它如果去跟中國合作讓我們的個資大量的被中國掌握這件事情我們應該要怎麼防\n對於電信公司來講他們對於客戶用戶資料的處理還是要依照我們自己國內的相關的法規來進行那這部分我們當然也會假如相關的情資的話也會跟相關的調查機關或檢查機關來進行舉發\n對於一些廣告公司有一定的規範\n但怕就是怕說有些廣告公司在台灣是完全沒有落地的那雖然這次有一些落地的條款但只是辦落地那如果說今天服務甚至是中國提供的因為台灣其實很多人是使用中國的服務所以他的個資會直接被中國拿走我認為這個可能才是我們現在必須面臨的困境\n那這件事情到底要怎麼做我覺得這個可能是質詢二三十分鐘都講不完的地方所以我先打住在這裡那最後只是想問一下就是說符合今天的題目就是說就是目前來講我們國安資訊的這個定義啦我看到這個在報告上面也有提到就是通訊保安監察法第7條啦\n所以也就是說譬如說像我們今天這個有一些社會運動啊什麼等等之類的民間企業當然像剛剛講的會做這些人流分析啊輪廓分析等等之類的那以國安局的角度來講呢最主要都是以這個通報法第7條為主那除了這個以外呢就是說譬如說好今天大家都在談這個清療行動以國安局的角度來講是什麼資料是你們有可能會去做的有什麼事情是你們絕對不會去做的\n主要涉及到還是要依照法律的規範的一些規定來進行我們相關的通訊保障跟監察法授權底下所進行的通訊檢查那就這部分來講涉及到國安的資訊主要涉及到是有境外敵對勢力以及他的協力者可能在境外境內以及跨境的相關的活動資訊而這些活動資訊可能會傷害到國家利益跟安全\n那有涉及到這一部分的問題的話,我們才會來進行非常嚴格的個案的審核。審核完之後再送請到高等法院來進行採核。可以的話才會由本人,也就是國安局局長來發放相關的通訊檢查書給司法警察機關。所以大概的作業流程還相當的嚴謹。那看起來這個應該不是跟一個境外敵對勢力有關的一個案件。對,是,並不是。好,謝謝局長,那謝謝主席。好,謝謝。\n待會兒洪聖翰委員質詢完畢以後\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.040 --> 00:05.285\n謝謝主席,有請局長跟中華電信好了,謝謝。\n\n00:13.347 --> 00:32.272\n沈委員好局長好那今天剛好呢一開始因為今天的題目是在講說國安局對於這個國安資訊是怎麼定義那但是剛剛前面又發生很多事情所以也是剛剛其實局長講得很好就是說第五中對是一個不容易定性很模糊的概念在華人委員這個也是我一直主張的所以我不知道他剛剛在講什麼\n\n00:33.392 --> 00:57.584\n但無論如何其實我們對於風險高低這件事情是真的是需要去認定那剛好今天早上有一個新聞所以我想說先從這個新聞談起就是說這一次是在這個湖尾湖尾之前一直都會有說什麼到底武器要不要發在那邊啊什麼等等的爭議那在這一個選舉前一週的時候湖尾的這個湖尾鎮的民眾有收到一個簡訊說危險\n\n00:59.545 --> 01:16.751\n胡偉設導彈基地一旦爆炸方圓10公里將無人倖存不知道局長還記不記得這件事情有一陣子了結果今天地檢署出了一份應該是不起訴這個不起訴裡面就有提到說發現\n\n01:18.491 --> 01:33.192\n這一個門號就是說發簡訊的這一個是由上海創蘭雲智信息科技股份有限公司去向台灣的一個叫互動公司承租所以看起來他是由這個承租之後然後再發簡訊\n\n01:34.173 --> 01:52.789\n所以我看起來因為他寫得不是很清楚但看起來是企業簡訊就是那一類的企業簡訊那所以呢這邊其實跟今天的題目非常有關係第一個就是顯然這是一個中國的公司結果在選舉權發送簡訊這是一個很大的問題第二個就是因為他發送的只有在胡偉正\n\n01:53.590 --> 02:19.208\n他只有在胡偉正他只有兩個方式一個就是他行動基地台直接背在那邊但我想他應該不是這樣子嘛因為他既然都已經透過這家叫互動公司了另外一個情形應該就是他掌握了胡偉正這邊的門號的資訊所以他才知道要發給誰所以第一個先想問就是說這件事情呢因為這今天才看到的就是事前的掌握度如何第二個就是想問中華電信就是說像這種因為企業簡訊其實是合法的\n\n02:19.668 --> 02:27.074\n所以像這種情形如果再度發生它的確已經干擾了我們的選舉這是破壞台灣的民主制度那以後我們應該要如何應處\n\n02:27.850 --> 02:57.223\n好,先就國安的角度跟委員說明跟報告那是不是再請中華電信局局長說明那就因為它發生的時間點確實是在選舉之前那我們注意到在中共現在的對台借選的手法當中它越來越細緻化所以以這個案例來講可以發現到它是針對湖北當地比較引起關注的基地設置的問題來操作相關的錯假訊息跟爭議訊息這大概是第一部分那第二部分就是變成是它傳播錯假訊息的主要的管道跟手法\n\n02:57.503 --> 03:23.485\n那有的當然是在網路上來進行那有的是透過手機簡訊來進行那因為這有涉及到部分的商業活動所以這部分我是不是容許我請中華電信來做說明好謝謝跟各位報告齁我想中華電信提供的是通訊服務齁所以在網路上端到端這些通訊的服務的內容在中華電信公司這邊我們是無權也不會去做相關的這個檢視但是在比如說\n\n03:24.926 --> 03:51.594\n簡訊這一個部分向近期我們配合那個跟主管機關依照主管機關指導去做相關的這一個打詐上面賭詐的這個防治所以相關的事項如果在依法令需要中華電信配合的地方我想我們會完全協助來做處理這一個事情但是還是要再重複的跟委員報告中華電信是通訊服務的公司我們對內容是不會去做檢視的\n\n03:52.794 --> 04:16.948\n這個我知道就是說以中華電信的角度因為畢竟中華電信是以提供服務為主那它等於是在利用我們這些任何可以提供的服務去遂行這件事情所以我覺得這件事情可能是需要後續的追蹤那剛好透過卓冠廷議員今天把這一個PO出來我們才知道了這件事情那這是第一個所以我覺得我們必須要認清一件事情就是台灣人的個資是一定有被蒐集的\n\n04:17.828 --> 04:34.934\n那台灣的各自被搜集最主要搜集的對象是誰?監控是誰?我覺得我們常常會搞錯那整體討論的方向中國在搜集台灣的資訊才是最無遠弗屆的我們今天在暗網上面看到的那一些2300萬的資料又或者健保相關的資料\n\n04:35.734 --> 05:00.304\n那是中國駭客放上去的所以當這些資料能夠被取得或者說有任何的商業用途被拿走的時候呢這個時候呢其實是中國可以利用這樣的情勢不管今天是在戰爭爆發的時候或在選舉的時候大家都可以做相關的一些利用所以呢第一件事情我現在想再問這個國安的這個部分我先稍微跳過因為剛好中華電信在這裡我想問一下就是說因為這邊呢\n\n05:01.164 --> 05:25.577\n中華電信自己的廣告上面也有提到有人潮客群的分析平台的服務然後這邊都是中華電信寫的那遠傳這邊甚至有寫到說在個人化的第二行這邊可瞭解單一用戶並整合ID的unification那這個我覺得是很正常的他自己都有IMSI嘛他有SIM卡的資訊然後呢後面這邊不對這邊是放遠傳的所以我想問一下就是說\n\n05:26.317 --> 05:28.018\n跟委員報告就單一事件而言我想中華電信的回覆都是一樣的沒有\n\n05:45.787 --> 06:13.007\n這一個人流分析的部分也在跟委員報告我們一定是去識別化之後做的數據分析應用所以不會有涉及到各自的議題那下一個問題就是說在去識別化的狀況之下那有沒有辦法做不同場域的比較因為你已經去識別化了嘛那去識別化了之後呢比如說發生在AD跟發生在BD的人有沒有重疊這個按照你們本來的提供服務是有辦法去做比對的嗎\n\n06:14.436 --> 06:38.356\n這個部分去識別的話基本上是輪廓資料所以輪廓資料的這個比對呢我想就會是輪廓上的比對不會是個人資訊上這些方向跟內容的比對所以至少會有輪廓的比對嗎對,輪廓的部分就像大家在做一般性的數據分析總會對自己辦的活動每一次的event去做一下性別、年齡等這些比較\n\n06:39.777 --> 06:54.349\n再來要特定到個人其實我認為這不應該是中華電信能夠做的事情但目前在我們就是說已在這個資訊世界裡面能夠做到這件事情的其實比較多的是外面的廣告公司因為外面的這些廣告公司都會透過\n\n06:54.969 --> 06:55.249\n有限公司列席\n\n07:10.086 --> 07:28.622\n更不要說早期還可以拿IMEI那現在沒有辦法拿到所以廣告公司會取得很多這樣的資料之後很多服務的公司取得這個資料之後會賣給第三方的廣告公司所以目前我在檯面上看到的能夠分析的比中華電信更精細的其實都是第三方的廣告公司\n\n07:29.502 --> 07:58.064\n所以這邊其實反過來講是想要問這個局長這一邊就是說現在廣告公司掌握這些資料其實比我們的三大電信還要來得更多就那種第三方的廣告公司而且它不一定是哪一個國家的它有可能是跨國的企業那這種第三方廣告公司呢我們當然國安單位不可能直接跟他們合作這是一定的但是這些第三方的廣告公司它如果去跟中國合作讓我們的個資大量的被中國掌握這件事情我們應該要怎麼防\n\n07:59.840 --> 08:13.032\n對於電信公司來講他們對於客戶用戶資料的處理還是要依照我們自己國內的相關的法規來進行那這部分我們當然也會假如相關的情資的話也會跟相關的調查機關或檢查機關來進行舉發\n\n08:16.095 --> 08:17.196\n對於一些廣告公司有一定的規範\n\n08:46.030 --> 09:02.007\n但怕就是怕說有些廣告公司在台灣是完全沒有落地的那雖然這次有一些落地的條款但只是辦落地那如果說今天服務甚至是中國提供的因為台灣其實很多人是使用中國的服務所以他的個資會直接被中國拿走我認為這個可能才是我們現在必須面臨的困境\n\n09:02.628 --> 09:19.043\n那這件事情到底要怎麼做我覺得這個可能是質詢二三十分鐘都講不完的地方所以我先打住在這裡那最後只是想問一下就是說符合今天的題目就是說就是目前來講我們國安資訊的這個定義啦我看到這個在報告上面也有提到就是通訊保安監察法第7條啦\n\n09:19.944 --> 09:41.393\n所以也就是說譬如說像我們今天這個有一些社會運動啊什麼等等之類的民間企業當然像剛剛講的會做這些人流分析啊輪廓分析等等之類的那以國安局的角度來講呢最主要都是以這個通報法第7條為主那除了這個以外呢就是說譬如說好今天大家都在談這個清療行動以國安局的角度來講是什麼資料是你們有可能會去做的有什麼事情是你們絕對不會去做的\n\n09:42.433 --> 10:04.012\n主要涉及到還是要依照法律的規範的一些規定來進行我們相關的通訊保障跟監察法授權底下所進行的通訊檢查那就這部分來講涉及到國安的資訊主要涉及到是有境外敵對勢力以及他的協力者可能在境外境內以及跨境的相關的活動資訊而這些活動資訊可能會傷害到國家利益跟安全\n\n10:04.412 --> 10:28.550\n那有涉及到這一部分的問題的話,我們才會來進行非常嚴格的個案的審核。審核完之後再送請到高等法院來進行採核。可以的話才會由本人,也就是國安局局長來發放相關的通訊檢查書給司法警察機關。所以大概的作業流程還相當的嚴謹。那看起來這個應該不是跟一個境外敵對勢力有關的一個案件。對,是,並不是。好,謝謝局長,那謝謝主席。好,謝謝。\n\n10:33.048 --> 10:35.602\n待會兒洪聖翰委員質詢完畢以後\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.04,"end":5.285,"text":"謝謝主席,有請局長跟中華電信好了,謝謝。"},{"start":13.347,"end":32.272,"text":"沈委員好局長好那今天剛好呢一開始因為今天的題目是在講說國安局對於這個國安資訊是怎麼定義那但是剛剛前面又發生很多事情所以也是剛剛其實局長講得很好就是說第五中對是一個不容易定性很模糊的概念在華人委員這個也是我一直主張的所以我不知道他剛剛在講什麼"},{"start":33.392,"end":57.584,"text":"但無論如何其實我們對於風險高低這件事情是真的是需要去認定那剛好今天早上有一個新聞所以我想說先從這個新聞談起就是說這一次是在這個湖尾湖尾之前一直都會有說什麼到底武器要不要發在那邊啊什麼等等的爭議那在這一個選舉前一週的時候湖尾的這個湖尾鎮的民眾有收到一個簡訊說危險"},{"start":59.545,"end":76.751,"text":"胡偉設導彈基地一旦爆炸方圓10公里將無人倖存不知道局長還記不記得這件事情有一陣子了結果今天地檢署出了一份應該是不起訴這個不起訴裡面就有提到說發現"},{"start":78.491,"end":93.192,"text":"這一個門號就是說發簡訊的這一個是由上海創蘭雲智信息科技股份有限公司去向台灣的一個叫互動公司承租所以看起來他是由這個承租之後然後再發簡訊"},{"start":94.173,"end":112.789,"text":"所以我看起來因為他寫得不是很清楚但看起來是企業簡訊就是那一類的企業簡訊那所以呢這邊其實跟今天的題目非常有關係第一個就是顯然這是一個中國的公司結果在選舉權發送簡訊這是一個很大的問題第二個就是因為他發送的只有在胡偉正"},{"start":113.59,"end":139.208,"text":"他只有在胡偉正他只有兩個方式一個就是他行動基地台直接背在那邊但我想他應該不是這樣子嘛因為他既然都已經透過這家叫互動公司了另外一個情形應該就是他掌握了胡偉正這邊的門號的資訊所以他才知道要發給誰所以第一個先想問就是說這件事情呢因為這今天才看到的就是事前的掌握度如何第二個就是想問中華電信就是說像這種因為企業簡訊其實是合法的"},{"start":139.668,"end":147.074,"text":"所以像這種情形如果再度發生它的確已經干擾了我們的選舉這是破壞台灣的民主制度那以後我們應該要如何應處"},{"start":147.85,"end":177.223,"text":"好,先就國安的角度跟委員說明跟報告那是不是再請中華電信局局長說明那就因為它發生的時間點確實是在選舉之前那我們注意到在中共現在的對台借選的手法當中它越來越細緻化所以以這個案例來講可以發現到它是針對湖北當地比較引起關注的基地設置的問題來操作相關的錯假訊息跟爭議訊息這大概是第一部分那第二部分就是變成是它傳播錯假訊息的主要的管道跟手法"},{"start":177.503,"end":203.485,"text":"那有的當然是在網路上來進行那有的是透過手機簡訊來進行那因為這有涉及到部分的商業活動所以這部分我是不是容許我請中華電信來做說明好 謝謝跟各位報告齁我想中華電信提供的是通訊服務齁所以在網路上端到端這些通訊的服務的內容在中華電信公司這邊我們是無權也不會去做相關的這個檢視但是在比如說"},{"start":204.926,"end":231.594,"text":"簡訊這一個部分向近期我們配合那個跟主管機關依照主管機關指導去做相關的這一個打詐上面賭詐的這個防治所以相關的事項如果在依法令需要中華電信配合的地方我想我們會完全協助來做處理這一個事情但是還是要再重複的跟委員報告中華電信是通訊服務的公司我們對內容是不會去做檢視的"},{"start":232.794,"end":256.948,"text":"這個我知道就是說以中華電信的角度因為畢竟中華電信是以提供服務為主那它等於是在利用我們這些任何可以提供的服務去遂行這件事情所以我覺得這件事情可能是需要後續的追蹤那剛好透過卓冠廷議員今天把這一個PO出來我們才知道了這件事情那這是第一個所以我覺得我們必須要認清一件事情就是台灣人的個資是一定有被蒐集的"},{"start":257.828,"end":274.934,"text":"那台灣的各自被搜集最主要搜集的對象是誰?監控是誰?我覺得我們常常會搞錯那整體討論的方向中國在搜集台灣的資訊才是最無遠弗屆的我們今天在暗網上面看到的那一些2300萬的資料又或者健保相關的資料"},{"start":275.734,"end":300.304,"text":"那是中國駭客放上去的所以當這些資料能夠被取得或者說有任何的商業用途被拿走的時候呢這個時候呢其實是中國可以利用這樣的情勢不管今天是在戰爭爆發的時候或在選舉的時候大家都可以做相關的一些利用所以呢第一件事情我現在想再問這個國安的這個部分我先稍微跳過因為剛好中華電信在這裡我想問一下就是說因為這邊呢"},{"start":301.164,"end":325.577,"text":"中華電信自己的廣告上面也有提到有人潮客群的分析平台的服務然後這邊都是中華電信寫的那遠傳這邊甚至有寫到說在個人化的第二行這邊可瞭解單一用戶並整合ID的unification那這個我覺得是很正常的他自己都有IMSI嘛他有SIM卡的資訊然後呢後面這邊不對這邊是放遠傳的所以我想問一下就是說"},{"start":326.317,"end":328.018,"text":"跟委員報告就單一事件而言我想中華電信的回覆都是一樣的沒有"},{"start":345.787,"end":373.007,"text":"這一個人流分析的部分也在跟委員報告我們一定是去識別化之後做的數據分析應用所以不會有涉及到各自的議題那下一個問題就是說在去識別化的狀況之下那有沒有辦法做不同場域的比較因為你已經去識別化了嘛那去識別化了之後呢比如說發生在AD跟發生在BD的人有沒有重疊這個按照你們本來的提供服務是有辦法去做比對的嗎"},{"start":374.436,"end":398.356,"text":"這個部分去識別的話基本上是輪廓資料所以輪廓資料的這個比對呢我想就會是輪廓上的比對不會是個人資訊上這些方向跟內容的比對所以至少會有輪廓的比對嗎對,輪廓的部分就像大家在做一般性的數據分析總會對自己辦的活動每一次的event去做一下性別、年齡等這些比較"},{"start":399.777,"end":414.349,"text":"再來要特定到個人其實我認為這不應該是中華電信能夠做的事情但目前在我們就是說已在這個資訊世界裡面能夠做到這件事情的其實比較多的是外面的廣告公司因為外面的這些廣告公司都會透過"},{"start":414.969,"end":415.249,"text":"有限公司列席"},{"start":430.086,"end":448.622,"text":"更不要說早期還可以拿IMEI那現在沒有辦法拿到所以廣告公司會取得很多這樣的資料之後很多服務的公司取得這個資料之後會賣給第三方的廣告公司所以目前我在檯面上看到的能夠分析的比中華電信更精細的其實都是第三方的廣告公司"},{"start":449.502,"end":478.064,"text":"所以這邊其實反過來講是想要問這個局長這一邊就是說現在廣告公司掌握這些資料其實比我們的三大電信還要來得更多就那種第三方的廣告公司而且它不一定是哪一個國家的它有可能是跨國的企業那這種第三方廣告公司呢我們當然國安單位不可能直接跟他們合作這是一定的但是這些第三方的廣告公司它如果去跟中國合作讓我們的個資大量的被中國掌握這件事情我們應該要怎麼防"},{"start":479.84,"end":493.032,"text":"對於電信公司來講他們對於客戶用戶資料的處理還是要依照我們自己國內的相關的法規來進行那這部分我們當然也會假如相關的情資的話也會跟相關的調查機關或檢查機關來進行舉發"},{"start":496.095,"end":497.196,"text":"對於一些廣告公司有一定的規範"},{"start":526.03,"end":542.007,"text":"但怕就是怕說有些廣告公司在台灣是完全沒有落地的那雖然這次有一些落地的條款但只是辦落地那如果說今天服務甚至是中國提供的因為台灣其實很多人是使用中國的服務所以他的個資會直接被中國拿走我認為這個可能才是我們現在必須面臨的困境"},{"start":542.628,"end":559.043,"text":"那這件事情到底要怎麼做我覺得這個可能是質詢二三十分鐘都講不完的地方所以我先打住在這裡那最後只是想問一下就是說符合今天的題目就是說就是目前來講我們國安資訊的這個定義啦我看到這個在報告上面也有提到就是通訊保安監察法第7條啦"},{"start":559.944,"end":581.393,"text":"所以也就是說譬如說像我們今天這個有一些社會運動啊什麼等等之類的民間企業當然像剛剛講的會做這些人流分析啊輪廓分析等等之類的那以國安局的角度來講呢最主要都是以這個通報法第7條為主那除了這個以外呢就是說譬如說好今天大家都在談這個清療行動以國安局的角度來講是什麼資料是你們有可能會去做的有什麼事情是你們絕對不會去做的"},{"start":582.433,"end":604.012,"text":"主要涉及到還是要依照法律的規範的一些規定來進行我們相關的通訊保障跟監察法授權底下所進行的通訊檢查那就這部分來講涉及到國安的資訊主要涉及到是有境外敵對勢力以及他的協力者可能在境外境內以及跨境的相關的活動資訊而這些活動資訊可能會傷害到國家利益跟安全"},{"start":604.412,"end":628.55,"text":"那有涉及到這一部分的問題的話,我們才會來進行非常嚴格的個案的審核。審核完之後再送請到高等法院來進行採核。可以的話才會由本人,也就是國安局局長來發放相關的通訊檢查書給司法警察機關。所以大概的作業流程還相當的嚴謹。那看起來這個應該不是跟一個境外敵對勢力有關的一個案件。對,是,並不是。好,謝謝局長,那謝謝主席。好,謝謝。"},{"start":633.048,"end":635.602,"text":"待會兒洪聖翰委員質詢完畢以後"}]}}}}