{"id":153830,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153830","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8193cd719a3fb1062ab0fec08313b105ec0a04e565a7cce14ef3d880ba5f67c8c755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:37:33 - 10:47:25","影片長度":"00:09:52","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:37:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:47:25+08:00","duration":592,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時37分）謝謝主席，我想要請我們國發會的劉主委跟我們經濟部的郭部長。"],["主席：我們再請劉主委跟郭部長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：劉主委早。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想請教一下、就教一下，今天早上我們郭部長說，如果把我們AI的用電計算進去的話，未來是3%的用電成長，那我想要瞭解，這個3%的用電成長是我們原先預估的，就是在AI沒有蓬勃發展的情況下，我們所預估的3%？還是在我們看到了AI產業，有輝達的執行長來，帶動了整個臺灣的AI熱潮以後，大家認為AI可能會成為下一個時代非常蓬勃發展的產業，那兩個用電的估算還是3%嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，上禮拜我剛好有參加這方面的會議，的確是上禮拜重新估計的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：上禮拜重新估計？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你說的是上禮拜重新估計，但我說的是，估計的是原先預估保守的這種成長？還是爆炸性的成長？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是含AI的成長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道這是含AI，過去你的3%就是含AI的成長了，但是我們所說的是，如果AI蓬勃發展的時候，你的用電、供電的成長還是3%嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在是以目前的狀態評估出來的數字。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是目前的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不清楚委員蓬勃的定義大概會到什麼程度，目前我的瞭解是，郭部長他們去問了很多業界，然後台電也問了很多業界，綜合出業界所反映的訊息而整理出來的，也許郭部長可以做進一步的說明。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是如果按照輝達的架構，它的新產品它的用電量會激增2到3倍，在這樣的情況下，我們的用電量每年的成長是否還是3%？郭部長，你有數字嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一部分他們現在是會增加，但是它新的晶片也會降能。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會降能？"],["郭部長智輝：對、對、對，就是說降低它的電的能耗。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以它未來的用電成長，不會像我們大家、一般業界評估的這麼高嗎？是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：……像過去預估那樣的正比，不會這樣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不會這麼高，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：對。而且我跟委員報告，主要是這樣子，就是說，他們現在的晶片有降能，另外，做成的伺服器，伺服器也會因為這個……他剛開始要做數據中心，他可能不會用那麼大的伺服器，所以他會漸漸地看，看完以後，最後比較大臺的，譬如說350MW的或者500MW的，那個一定都是放在比較後面的投資，不會一開始就投資那麼大，我想就投資者來講，他也會慢慢去測試我們的電到底是有沒有那麼多啦！我想這個是事實，大家都清楚，也就是說，不可能一下子就投入500MW的、350MW的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以初期不會那麼高？"],["郭部長智輝：對，初期一定不會那麼高，所以我們過去的……現在講說3%，我們認為3%其實應該可以滿足這個市場的需求，到2028年以後，如果這個AI的熱潮整個非常的好，那麼我們就要比較擔心，但是我想因為我們現在在觀察，我們是動態在觀察，所以我們現在……另外一個，我可以在這個地方跟各位報告，就是說大家都擔心我們的電可能不夠，不過，我們從現在一直在檢討做節能ESCO這個方案，所以ESCO方案如果我推下去的話，事實上非常有機會來滿足2025到2028的成長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想要瞭解的是，目前大家都認為未來政府部門不應該再撥補給台電，那電價會不會漲？你看，這是台電的資產負債表、4月底的資產負債表，它累計的虧損是4,400億，這樣高的數字，如果未來政府部門……過去都是由政府部門吸收，以及當初你也講了，你原本是要降低平均的發電成本，因為從你過去的經驗，你認為台電應該要降低平均發電的成本，那未來有沒有可能？如果目前大家看來，好像核能是成本相對比較低的情況下，未來沒有可能降低，那政府部門又不撥補的情況下，是不是勢必電價就會……"],["郭部長智輝：如果我們沒有從效益上面去推估，只從成本上面去考量的話，就會像委員你所指教的，不過，我認為公司的經營必須要看營運的效益、我所使用材料的成本跟我的人力，我想這個成本的部分，我們除了材料的成本以外，人力的成本、運作的效益，這些都是我可以去努力的部分，雖然我們材料的成本占非常的高，不過我們現在就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是能源的成本，天然氣跟燃煤的成本。"],["郭部長智輝：對，您所關心的核能成本，如果核能成本我全部替換了以後，事實上每一度電增加的成本並不高、並不高。因為過去我們的核能只占了……目前只占了百分之六到百分之七，所以它真的有百分之九十幾的成本在那邊是固定的，這個部分真的能占的部分太小，它所影響出來的價格是非常小的，我必須要由一些妥善率或者是loss的部分，或者一些績效不好的地方去努力。報告委員，我們現在最快的方式就是去推動節能方案，就是ESCO這個方案，這個方案，我可以讓業者……他們也可以降低它的電費，我們基本上……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那多久可以執行？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在加緊腳步。"],["謝委員衣鳯：節能的方向多久可以執行？因為你必須要在這個缺口產生之前，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：對，沒有錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這樣會增加企業多少成本？你不能只用高科技產業來看，必須要看影響就業人口數最多的中小企業？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有錯、沒有錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：它會增加多少成本？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上，我們先滿足中小企業以及一般商家、一般住家的用電，我們朝向這個方向，剛才楊委員也有特別指導，如果院長指示這部分不漲的話，我們就努力朝這個部分來努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以在不漲電價的情況下，你是以節能的方式去因應嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們會朝著節能的部分來努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：台電的成本呢？台電的虧損呢？"],["郭部長智輝：台電不會產生虧損。"],["謝委員衣鳯：台電會不會倒閉？"],["郭部長智輝：不會產生虧損，如果我們推得順利的話。"],["謝委員衣鳯：台電會不會倒閉？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會倒閉？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不會倒閉？你說的，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我說的。經營公司我們不可能讓它倒閉，財務有財務的問題，我們會去努力，但是我個人認為經營公司最重要的是效益和效率的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：台電會不會倒閉？如果不會倒閉就不會產生，你的認知是這樣，是不是？你說不會缺電，也不會倒閉？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：也不會增加成本？"],["郭部長智輝：不會增加成本。"],["謝委員衣鳯：也不會有虧損？"],["郭部長智輝：過去的虧損是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：新的不會虧損？"],["郭部長智輝：對，新的不會虧損。"],["謝委員衣鳯：總經理要不要說一下，是不是不會虧損？"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，因為部長來自於企業界，他對於整個成本各方面都會有要求，我們會把整個細節再分析給部長聽，到時候會做比較詳細的瞭解之後再判斷。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我為部長補充，因為前任部長說過有政府台電就不會倒，你要大方一點，沒問題，我們也歡喜聽到你是以經營的方式，台電不會倒，這是讓國人有信心，但是你說台電不會增加成本、不會虧損，這有一點疑慮，我們也拭目以待你可以提出方案。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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582.22, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 582.22, \"end\": 582.24, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:26,968\n我們請謝一芬委員請坐巡檔謝謝主席我想要請我們國發會的劉主委跟我們經濟部的郭部長我們再請劉主委跟郭部長劉主委早\n\n2\n00:00:28,473 --> 00:00:46,788\n我想請教一下今天早上我們郭部長說如果計算進去就是說我們AI的這個用電的話那未來是3%的這個成長用電的成長那我想要了解\n\n3\n00:00:48,069 --> 00:01:04,837\n這個3%的用電成長是我們原先預估的就是在AI沒有蓬勃發展的情況下我們所預估的3%還是在我們看到了AI產業有回答\n\n4\n00:01:05,737 --> 00:01:06,237\n這兩個用電的估算還是3%嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:24,939 --> 00:01:44,919\n跟委員報告上禮拜我剛好有參加這方面的會議的確是上禮拜重新估計的上禮拜重新估計但是我說了你說的是上禮拜重新估計但是我說的是估計的是原先預估保守的這種成長還是是爆炸性的成長\n\n6\n00:01:46,019 --> 00:02:01,177\n這是含AI的成長我知道這是含AI過去你的3%就是含AI的成長了但是我們所說的是說如果AI蓬勃發展的時候你的用電供電的成長還是3%嗎\n\n7\n00:02:04,452 --> 00:02:33,285\n我們現在是以目前的狀態評估出來的數字是目前的那我不清楚委員彭博的定義大概會到什麼程度那目前我們大概我的了解是郭部長他們去問了很多業界然後台電也問了很多業界綜合出來業界所反映的訊息整理出來的也許郭部長可以做進一步的說可是如果按照輝達他的架構他的新產品他的用電量會激增2到3倍\n\n8\n00:02:34,065 --> 00:02:52,014\n那這樣子的情況下我們的用電量是否還是3%每年的成長?國務部長你有數字嗎?報告委員,這一部分它們雖然是會增加但是它新的晶片也會降的\n\n9\n00:02:52,928 --> 00:03:08,182\n會降能?對對對,就是說降低它的這個電的能耗所以它未來的用電的成長不會像我們大家一般業界的評估的這麼高嗎?這個正比啦,不會這樣\n\n10\n00:03:08,823 --> 00:03:26,529\n不會降這個高是不是而且我跟委員報告主要是這樣子就是說他們現在所晶片有在有降能那另外做成的這個伺服器啊伺服器也會因為這個他剛開始要做這個數據重運他可能不會用那麼大的這個伺服器\n\n11\n00:03:27,309 --> 00:03:42,556\n所以他會漸漸地看然後看完以後他最後他那個比較大台的比如說那個350咩的或者500咩的那個那個一定都是放在比較後面的投資不會一開始就投資那麼大我想對投資者來講他也會慢慢地去\n\n12\n00:03:43,576 --> 00:04:09,832\n去測試我們的店到底是有沒有那麼多啦我想這個是事實嘛大家都清楚啦不可能一生就五百多千塊錢所以初期是不會那麼高對初期一定不會那麼高所以我們過去的這個現在雖然講說3%我們認為3%其實是應該可以滿足這個市場的需求到2028年以後如果這個AI的熱潮整個非常的好\n\n13\n00:04:10,714 --> 00:04:37,291\n那麼我們就是要比較擔心但是我想因為我們現在在看觀察我們是動態的在觀察所以我們現在另外一個我可以在這個地方跟各位報告就是說大家都擔心我們店可能不夠不過我們從現在一直在檢討做這個節能的這個方案所以這個方案如果我推的下去的話我事實上非常有機會來滿足\n\n14\n00:04:40,093 --> 00:05:06,404\n這是2025到2028的成長那我想要了解的就是目前大家都認為說你說未來就是政府部門不應該再就是撥補給台電嗎那電價電價會不會漲是不是你看這是台電的資產負債表4月底的資產負債表它累計的虧損是4400億這樣子高的數字那如果未來\n\n15\n00:05:08,072 --> 00:05:35,117\n政府部門過去都是由政府部門吸收以及當初你也講的你原本是要降低就是平均的發電的成本嘛因為從你過去的經驗你認為台電應該要降低平均發電的成本那未來有沒有可能那如果目前大家看來好像核能是比較成本是相對比較低的這個情況下\n\n16\n00:05:36,337 --> 00:05:43,731\n那未來沒有可能降低那政府部門又不撥補的情況下那是不是勢必電價就會\n\n17\n00:05:45,851 --> 00:06:13,501\n如果我們沒有從效益上面去推估那麼只從這個成本上面去考量的話就會像這個委員你所指教的不過我認為啦這個一個公司的經營必須要看我這個營運的效益跟我所使用材料的成本跟我人力我想這個成本的部分我們除了這個材料的成本以外人力的成本然後運作的這個效益\n\n18\n00:06:14,401 --> 00:06:34,846\n這些都是我可以去努力的部分那雖然我們材料成本佔非常的高不過我們現在就是就是女人的成本嗎?天然氣跟燃煤的成本嗎?您所說的關心的這個核能的這個成本如果核能成本我全部替換了以後我事實上每一度增加的成本並不高\n\n19\n00:06:36,346 --> 00:06:41,814\n並不高因為過去我們的這個核能只佔了這個目前是只佔了這個6%到7%所以他真的這個\n\n20\n00:06:47,767 --> 00:07:10,504\n90幾%的成本在那邊是固定的這個部分真的能佔的部分太小它所影響出來的價格是非常的小的我必須要由一些妥善率或者是漏食的部分或者是一些績效不好的地方去努力報告委員我們現在最快的方式就是去推動節能方案\n\n21\n00:07:11,686 --> 00:07:15,919\n節能方案就是ESCO這個方案那麼這個方案我可以讓業者\n\n22\n00:07:18,444 --> 00:07:47,779\n他們也可以降低它的這個電費那多久可以執行?你節能的方向多久可以執行?因為你必須要在這個缺口產生之前嘛是不是?你如果這樣子說然後這樣子會增加企業多少的成本那你不能只用高科技產業來看你必須要看影響就業人口最多數的中小企業的人\n\n23\n00:07:48,319 --> 00:08:12,974\n他會增加多少成本?基本上我們先滿足中小企業以及一般的商家跟一般的住家的用電我們朝向這一部分剛才我想楊委員也有特別指導我們這一部分的話就是按照這個院長他如果說只是這一部分我們不長的話我們就努力朝這個部分來努力的\n\n24\n00:08:13,988 --> 00:08:30,218\n所以你在不漲電價的情況下你是以節能的方式去因應嗎對對對我們會朝著這個節能的部分來努力臺電的成本呢臺電的虧損呢臺電不會產生虧損不會產生虧損如果我們這個推的數據的話臺電會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉是你說的是不是我說的\n\n25\n00:08:43,611 --> 00:09:11,085\n經營公司我想我們不可能讓它倒閉啦這個財務有財務的問題我們會去努力但是我個人認為經營一個公司最重要是效益跟效率的問題台電會不會倒閉那如果不會倒閉就不會產生你的認知是這樣是不是你是說不會缺電不會缺電也不會倒閉不會也不會增加成本\n\n26\n00:09:12,708 --> 00:09:18,373\n不會增加成本也不會有虧損過去的虧損是新的不會虧損對新的不會虧損總經理要不要說一下是不是不會虧損\n\n27\n00:09:28,297 --> 00:09:42,240\n報告委員部長因為來自於企業界他對整個成本方面都會有要求那我們會把整個的細節再分析給部長聽到時候會做比較詳細的一個瞭解之後再判斷好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t26968\t我們請謝一芬委員請坐巡檔謝謝主席我想要請我們國發會的劉主委跟我們經濟部的郭部長我們再請劉主委跟郭部長劉主委早\n28473\t46788\t我想請教一下今天早上我們郭部長說如果計算進去就是說我們AI的這個用電的話那未來是3%的這個成長用電的成長那我想要了解\n48069\t64837\t這個3%的用電成長是我們原先預估的就是在AI沒有蓬勃發展的情況下我們所預估的3%還是在我們看到了AI產業有回答\n65737\t66237\t這兩個用電的估算還是3%嗎?\n84939\t104919\t跟委員報告上禮拜我剛好有參加這方面的會議的確是上禮拜重新估計的上禮拜重新估計但是我說了你說的是上禮拜重新估計但是我說的是估計的是原先預估保守的這種成長還是是爆炸性的成長\n106019\t121177\t這是含AI的成長我知道這是含AI過去你的3%就是含AI的成長了但是我們所說的是說如果AI蓬勃發展的時候你的用電供電的成長還是3%嗎\n124452\t153285\t我們現在是以目前的狀態評估出來的數字是目前的那我不清楚委員彭博的定義大概會到什麼程度那目前我們大概我的了解是郭部長他們去問了很多業界然後台電也問了很多業界綜合出來業界所反映的訊息整理出來的也許郭部長可以做進一步的說可是如果按照輝達他的架構他的新產品他的用電量會激增2到3倍\n154065\t172014\t那這樣子的情況下我們的用電量是否還是3%每年的成長?國務部長你有數字嗎?報告委員,這一部分它們雖然是會增加但是它新的晶片也會降的\n172928\t188182\t會降能?對對對,就是說降低它的這個電的能耗所以它未來的用電的成長不會像我們大家一般業界的評估的這麼高嗎?這個正比啦,不會這樣\n188823\t206529\t不會降這個高是不是而且我跟委員報告主要是這樣子就是說他們現在所晶片有在有降能那另外做成的這個伺服器啊伺服器也會因為這個他剛開始要做這個數據重運他可能不會用那麼大的這個伺服器\n207309\t222556\t所以他會漸漸地看然後看完以後他最後他那個比較大台的比如說那個350咩的或者500咩的那個那個一定都是放在比較後面的投資不會一開始就投資那麼大我想對投資者來講他也會慢慢地去\n223576\t249832\t去測試我們的店到底是有沒有那麼多啦我想這個是事實嘛大家都清楚啦不可能一生就五百多千塊錢所以初期是不會那麼高對 初期一定不會那麼高所以我們過去的這個現在雖然講說3%我們認為3%其實是應該可以滿足這個市場的需求到2028年以後如果這個AI的熱潮整個非常的好\n250714\t277291\t那麼我們就是要比較擔心但是我想因為我們現在在看觀察我們是動態的在觀察所以我們現在另外一個我可以在這個地方跟各位報告就是說大家都擔心我們店可能不夠不過我們從現在一直在檢討做這個節能的這個方案所以這個方案如果我推的下去的話我事實上非常有機會來滿足\n280093\t306404\t這是2025到2028的成長那我想要了解的就是目前大家都認為說你說未來就是政府部門不應該再就是撥補給台電嗎那電價電價會不會漲是不是你看這是台電的資產負債表4月底的資產負債表它累計的虧損是4400億這樣子高的數字那如果未來\n308072\t335117\t政府部門過去都是由政府部門吸收以及當初你也講的你原本是要降低就是平均的發電的成本嘛因為從你過去的經驗你認為台電應該要降低平均發電的成本那未來有沒有可能那如果目前大家看來好像核能是比較成本是相對比較低的這個情況下\n336337\t343731\t那未來沒有可能降低那政府部門又不撥補的情況下那是不是勢必電價就會\n345851\t373501\t如果我們沒有從效益上面去推估那麼只從這個成本上面去考量的話就會像這個委員你所指教的不過我認為啦這個一個公司的經營必須要看我這個營運的效益跟我所使用材料的成本跟我人力我想這個成本的部分我們除了這個材料的成本以外人力的成本然後運作的這個效益\n374401\t394846\t這些都是我可以去努力的部分那雖然我們材料成本佔非常的高不過我們現在就是就是女人的成本嗎?天然氣跟燃煤的成本嗎?您所說的關心的這個核能的這個成本如果核能成本我全部替換了以後我事實上每一度增加的成本並不高\n396346\t401814\t並不高因為過去我們的這個核能只佔了這個目前是只佔了這個6%到7%所以他真的這個\n407767\t430504\t90幾%的成本在那邊是固定的這個部分真的能佔的部分太小它所影響出來的價格是非常的小的我必須要由一些妥善率或者是漏食的部分或者是一些績效不好的地方去努力報告委員我們現在最快的方式就是去推動節能方案\n431686\t435919\t節能方案就是ESCO這個方案那麼這個方案我可以讓業者\n438444\t467779\t他們也可以降低它的這個電費那多久可以執行?你節能的方向多久可以執行?因為你必須要在這個缺口產生之前嘛是不是?你如果這樣子說然後這樣子會增加企業多少的成本那你不能只用高科技產業來看你必須要看影響就業人口最多數的中小企業的人\n468319\t492974\t他會增加多少成本?基本上我們先滿足中小企業以及一般的商家跟一般的住家的用電我們朝向這一部分剛才我想楊委員也有特別指導我們這一部分的話就是按照這個院長他如果說只是這一部分我們不長的話我們就努力朝這個部分來努力的\n493988\t510218\t所以你在不漲電價的情況下你是以節能的方式去因應嗎對對對我們會朝著這個節能的部分來努力臺電的成本呢臺電的虧損呢臺電不會產生虧損不會產生虧損如果我們這個推的數據的話臺電會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉是你說的是不是我說的\n523611\t551085\t經營公司我想我們不可能讓它倒閉啦這個財務有財務的問題我們會去努力但是我個人認為經營一個公司最重要是效益跟效率的問題台電會不會倒閉那如果不會倒閉就不會產生你的認知是這樣是不是你是說不會缺電不會缺電也不會倒閉不會也不會增加成本\n552708\t558373\t不會增加成本也不會有虧損過去的虧損是新的不會虧損對 新的不會虧損總經理要不要說一下是不是不會虧損\n568297\t582240\t報告委員部長因為來自於企業界他對整個成本方面都會有要求那我們會把整個的細節再分析給部長聽到時候會做比較詳細的一個瞭解之後再判斷好 謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"我們請謝一芬委員請坐巡檔謝謝主席我想要請我們國發會的劉主委跟我們經濟部的郭部長我們再請劉主委跟郭部長劉主委早\n我想請教一下今天早上我們郭部長說如果計算進去就是說我們AI的這個用電的話那未來是3%的這個成長用電的成長那我想要了解\n這個3%的用電成長是我們原先預估的就是在AI沒有蓬勃發展的情況下我們所預估的3%還是在我們看到了AI產業有回答\n這兩個用電的估算還是3%嗎?\n跟委員報告上禮拜我剛好有參加這方面的會議的確是上禮拜重新估計的上禮拜重新估計但是我說了你說的是上禮拜重新估計但是我說的是估計的是原先預估保守的這種成長還是是爆炸性的成長\n這是含AI的成長我知道這是含AI過去你的3%就是含AI的成長了但是我們所說的是說如果AI蓬勃發展的時候你的用電供電的成長還是3%嗎\n我們現在是以目前的狀態評估出來的數字是目前的那我不清楚委員彭博的定義大概會到什麼程度那目前我們大概我的了解是郭部長他們去問了很多業界然後台電也問了很多業界綜合出來業界所反映的訊息整理出來的也許郭部長可以做進一步的說可是如果按照輝達他的架構他的新產品他的用電量會激增2到3倍\n那這樣子的情況下我們的用電量是否還是3%每年的成長?國務部長你有數字嗎?報告委員,這一部分它們雖然是會增加但是它新的晶片也會降的\n會降能?對對對,就是說降低它的這個電的能耗所以它未來的用電的成長不會像我們大家一般業界的評估的這麼高嗎?這個正比啦,不會這樣\n不會降這個高是不是而且我跟委員報告主要是這樣子就是說他們現在所晶片有在有降能那另外做成的這個伺服器啊伺服器也會因為這個他剛開始要做這個數據重運他可能不會用那麼大的這個伺服器\n所以他會漸漸地看然後看完以後他最後他那個比較大台的比如說那個350咩的或者500咩的那個那個一定都是放在比較後面的投資不會一開始就投資那麼大我想對投資者來講他也會慢慢地去\n去測試我們的店到底是有沒有那麼多啦我想這個是事實嘛大家都清楚啦不可能一生就五百多千塊錢所以初期是不會那麼高對 初期一定不會那麼高所以我們過去的這個現在雖然講說3%我們認為3%其實是應該可以滿足這個市場的需求到2028年以後如果這個AI的熱潮整個非常的好\n那麼我們就是要比較擔心但是我想因為我們現在在看觀察我們是動態的在觀察所以我們現在另外一個我可以在這個地方跟各位報告就是說大家都擔心我們店可能不夠不過我們從現在一直在檢討做這個節能的這個方案所以這個方案如果我推的下去的話我事實上非常有機會來滿足\n這是2025到2028的成長那我想要了解的就是目前大家都認為說你說未來就是政府部門不應該再就是撥補給台電嗎那電價電價會不會漲是不是你看這是台電的資產負債表4月底的資產負債表它累計的虧損是4400億這樣子高的數字那如果未來\n政府部門過去都是由政府部門吸收以及當初你也講的你原本是要降低就是平均的發電的成本嘛因為從你過去的經驗你認為台電應該要降低平均發電的成本那未來有沒有可能那如果目前大家看來好像核能是比較成本是相對比較低的這個情況下\n那未來沒有可能降低那政府部門又不撥補的情況下那是不是勢必電價就會\n如果我們沒有從效益上面去推估那麼只從這個成本上面去考量的話就會像這個委員你所指教的不過我認為啦這個一個公司的經營必須要看我這個營運的效益跟我所使用材料的成本跟我人力我想這個成本的部分我們除了這個材料的成本以外人力的成本然後運作的這個效益\n這些都是我可以去努力的部分那雖然我們材料成本佔非常的高不過我們現在就是就是女人的成本嗎?天然氣跟燃煤的成本嗎?您所說的關心的這個核能的這個成本如果核能成本我全部替換了以後我事實上每一度增加的成本並不高\n並不高因為過去我們的這個核能只佔了這個目前是只佔了這個6%到7%所以他真的這個\n90幾%的成本在那邊是固定的這個部分真的能佔的部分太小它所影響出來的價格是非常的小的我必須要由一些妥善率或者是漏食的部分或者是一些績效不好的地方去努力報告委員我們現在最快的方式就是去推動節能方案\n節能方案就是ESCO這個方案那麼這個方案我可以讓業者\n他們也可以降低它的這個電費那多久可以執行?你節能的方向多久可以執行?因為你必須要在這個缺口產生之前嘛是不是?你如果這樣子說然後這樣子會增加企業多少的成本那你不能只用高科技產業來看你必須要看影響就業人口最多數的中小企業的人\n他會增加多少成本?基本上我們先滿足中小企業以及一般的商家跟一般的住家的用電我們朝向這一部分剛才我想楊委員也有特別指導我們這一部分的話就是按照這個院長他如果說只是這一部分我們不長的話我們就努力朝這個部分來努力的\n所以你在不漲電價的情況下你是以節能的方式去因應嗎對對對我們會朝著這個節能的部分來努力臺電的成本呢臺電的虧損呢臺電不會產生虧損不會產生虧損如果我們這個推的數據的話臺電會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉是你說的是不是我說的\n經營公司我想我們不可能讓它倒閉啦這個財務有財務的問題我們會去努力但是我個人認為經營一個公司最重要是效益跟效率的問題台電會不會倒閉那如果不會倒閉就不會產生你的認知是這樣是不是你是說不會缺電不會缺電也不會倒閉不會也不會增加成本\n不會增加成本也不會有虧損過去的虧損是新的不會虧損對 新的不會虧損總經理要不要說一下是不是不會虧損\n報告委員部長因為來自於企業界他對整個成本方面都會有要求那我們會把整個的細節再分析給部長聽到時候會做比較詳細的一個瞭解之後再判斷好 謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:26.968\n我們請謝一芬委員請坐巡檔謝謝主席我想要請我們國發會的劉主委跟我們經濟部的郭部長我們再請劉主委跟郭部長劉主委早\n\n00:28.473 --> 00:46.788\n我想請教一下今天早上我們郭部長說如果計算進去就是說我們AI的這個用電的話那未來是3%的這個成長用電的成長那我想要了解\n\n00:48.069 --> 01:04.837\n這個3%的用電成長是我們原先預估的就是在AI沒有蓬勃發展的情況下我們所預估的3%還是在我們看到了AI產業有回答\n\n01:05.737 --> 01:06.237\n這兩個用電的估算還是3%嗎?\n\n01:24.939 --> 01:44.919\n跟委員報告上禮拜我剛好有參加這方面的會議的確是上禮拜重新估計的上禮拜重新估計但是我說了你說的是上禮拜重新估計但是我說的是估計的是原先預估保守的這種成長還是是爆炸性的成長\n\n01:46.019 --> 02:01.177\n這是含AI的成長我知道這是含AI過去你的3%就是含AI的成長了但是我們所說的是說如果AI蓬勃發展的時候你的用電供電的成長還是3%嗎\n\n02:04.452 --> 02:33.285\n我們現在是以目前的狀態評估出來的數字是目前的那我不清楚委員彭博的定義大概會到什麼程度那目前我們大概我的了解是郭部長他們去問了很多業界然後台電也問了很多業界綜合出來業界所反映的訊息整理出來的也許郭部長可以做進一步的說可是如果按照輝達他的架構他的新產品他的用電量會激增2到3倍\n\n02:34.065 --> 02:52.014\n那這樣子的情況下我們的用電量是否還是3%每年的成長?國務部長你有數字嗎?報告委員,這一部分它們雖然是會增加但是它新的晶片也會降的\n\n02:52.928 --> 03:08.182\n會降能?對對對,就是說降低它的這個電的能耗所以它未來的用電的成長不會像我們大家一般業界的評估的這麼高嗎?這個正比啦,不會這樣\n\n03:08.823 --> 03:26.529\n不會降這個高是不是而且我跟委員報告主要是這樣子就是說他們現在所晶片有在有降能那另外做成的這個伺服器啊伺服器也會因為這個他剛開始要做這個數據重運他可能不會用那麼大的這個伺服器\n\n03:27.309 --> 03:42.556\n所以他會漸漸地看然後看完以後他最後他那個比較大台的比如說那個350咩的或者500咩的那個那個一定都是放在比較後面的投資不會一開始就投資那麼大我想對投資者來講他也會慢慢地去\n\n03:43.576 --> 04:09.832\n去測試我們的店到底是有沒有那麼多啦我想這個是事實嘛大家都清楚啦不可能一生就五百多千塊錢所以初期是不會那麼高對初期一定不會那麼高所以我們過去的這個現在雖然講說3%我們認為3%其實是應該可以滿足這個市場的需求到2028年以後如果這個AI的熱潮整個非常的好\n\n04:10.714 --> 04:37.291\n那麼我們就是要比較擔心但是我想因為我們現在在看觀察我們是動態的在觀察所以我們現在另外一個我可以在這個地方跟各位報告就是說大家都擔心我們店可能不夠不過我們從現在一直在檢討做這個節能的這個方案所以這個方案如果我推的下去的話我事實上非常有機會來滿足\n\n04:40.093 --> 05:06.404\n這是2025到2028的成長那我想要了解的就是目前大家都認為說你說未來就是政府部門不應該再就是撥補給台電嗎那電價電價會不會漲是不是你看這是台電的資產負債表4月底的資產負債表它累計的虧損是4400億這樣子高的數字那如果未來\n\n05:08.072 --> 05:35.117\n政府部門過去都是由政府部門吸收以及當初你也講的你原本是要降低就是平均的發電的成本嘛因為從你過去的經驗你認為台電應該要降低平均發電的成本那未來有沒有可能那如果目前大家看來好像核能是比較成本是相對比較低的這個情況下\n\n05:36.337 --> 05:43.731\n那未來沒有可能降低那政府部門又不撥補的情況下那是不是勢必電價就會\n\n05:45.851 --> 06:13.501\n如果我們沒有從效益上面去推估那麼只從這個成本上面去考量的話就會像這個委員你所指教的不過我認為啦這個一個公司的經營必須要看我這個營運的效益跟我所使用材料的成本跟我人力我想這個成本的部分我們除了這個材料的成本以外人力的成本然後運作的這個效益\n\n06:14.401 --> 06:34.846\n這些都是我可以去努力的部分那雖然我們材料成本佔非常的高不過我們現在就是就是女人的成本嗎?天然氣跟燃煤的成本嗎?您所說的關心的這個核能的這個成本如果核能成本我全部替換了以後我事實上每一度增加的成本並不高\n\n06:36.346 --> 06:41.814\n並不高因為過去我們的這個核能只佔了這個目前是只佔了這個6%到7%所以他真的這個\n\n06:47.767 --> 07:10.504\n90幾%的成本在那邊是固定的這個部分真的能佔的部分太小它所影響出來的價格是非常的小的我必須要由一些妥善率或者是漏食的部分或者是一些績效不好的地方去努力報告委員我們現在最快的方式就是去推動節能方案\n\n07:11.686 --> 07:15.919\n節能方案就是ESCO這個方案那麼這個方案我可以讓業者\n\n07:18.444 --> 07:47.779\n他們也可以降低它的這個電費那多久可以執行?你節能的方向多久可以執行?因為你必須要在這個缺口產生之前嘛是不是?你如果這樣子說然後這樣子會增加企業多少的成本那你不能只用高科技產業來看你必須要看影響就業人口最多數的中小企業的人\n\n07:48.319 --> 08:12.974\n他會增加多少成本?基本上我們先滿足中小企業以及一般的商家跟一般的住家的用電我們朝向這一部分剛才我想楊委員也有特別指導我們這一部分的話就是按照這個院長他如果說只是這一部分我們不長的話我們就努力朝這個部分來努力的\n\n08:13.988 --> 08:30.218\n所以你在不漲電價的情況下你是以節能的方式去因應嗎對對對我們會朝著這個節能的部分來努力臺電的成本呢臺電的虧損呢臺電不會產生虧損不會產生虧損如果我們這個推的數據的話臺電會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉是你說的是不是我說的\n\n08:43.611 --> 09:11.085\n經營公司我想我們不可能讓它倒閉啦這個財務有財務的問題我們會去努力但是我個人認為經營一個公司最重要是效益跟效率的問題台電會不會倒閉那如果不會倒閉就不會產生你的認知是這樣是不是你是說不會缺電不會缺電也不會倒閉不會也不會增加成本\n\n09:12.708 --> 09:18.373\n不會增加成本也不會有虧損過去的虧損是新的不會虧損對新的不會虧損總經理要不要說一下是不是不會虧損\n\n09:28.297 --> 09:42.240\n報告委員部長因為來自於企業界他對整個成本方面都會有要求那我們會把整個的細節再分析給部長聽到時候會做比較詳細的一個瞭解之後再判斷好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":26.968,"text":"我們請謝一芬委員請坐巡檔謝謝主席我想要請我們國發會的劉主委跟我們經濟部的郭部長我們再請劉主委跟郭部長劉主委早"},{"start":28.473,"end":46.788,"text":"我想請教一下今天早上我們郭部長說如果計算進去就是說我們AI的這個用電的話那未來是3%的這個成長用電的成長那我想要了解"},{"start":48.069,"end":64.837,"text":"這個3%的用電成長是我們原先預估的就是在AI沒有蓬勃發展的情況下我們所預估的3%還是在我們看到了AI產業有回答"},{"start":65.737,"end":66.237,"text":"這兩個用電的估算還是3%嗎?"},{"start":84.939,"end":104.919,"text":"跟委員報告上禮拜我剛好有參加這方面的會議的確是上禮拜重新估計的上禮拜重新估計但是我說了你說的是上禮拜重新估計但是我說的是估計的是原先預估保守的這種成長還是是爆炸性的成長"},{"start":106.019,"end":121.177,"text":"這是含AI的成長我知道這是含AI過去你的3%就是含AI的成長了但是我們所說的是說如果AI蓬勃發展的時候你的用電供電的成長還是3%嗎"},{"start":124.452,"end":153.285,"text":"我們現在是以目前的狀態評估出來的數字是目前的那我不清楚委員彭博的定義大概會到什麼程度那目前我們大概我的了解是郭部長他們去問了很多業界然後台電也問了很多業界綜合出來業界所反映的訊息整理出來的也許郭部長可以做進一步的說可是如果按照輝達他的架構他的新產品他的用電量會激增2到3倍"},{"start":154.065,"end":172.014,"text":"那這樣子的情況下我們的用電量是否還是3%每年的成長?國務部長你有數字嗎?報告委員,這一部分它們雖然是會增加但是它新的晶片也會降的"},{"start":172.928,"end":188.182,"text":"會降能?對對對,就是說降低它的這個電的能耗所以它未來的用電的成長不會像我們大家一般業界的評估的這麼高嗎?這個正比啦,不會這樣"},{"start":188.823,"end":206.529,"text":"不會降這個高是不是而且我跟委員報告主要是這樣子就是說他們現在所晶片有在有降能那另外做成的這個伺服器啊伺服器也會因為這個他剛開始要做這個數據重運他可能不會用那麼大的這個伺服器"},{"start":207.309,"end":222.556,"text":"所以他會漸漸地看然後看完以後他最後他那個比較大台的比如說那個350咩的或者500咩的那個那個一定都是放在比較後面的投資不會一開始就投資那麼大我想對投資者來講他也會慢慢地去"},{"start":223.576,"end":249.832,"text":"去測試我們的店到底是有沒有那麼多啦我想這個是事實嘛大家都清楚啦不可能一生就五百多千塊錢所以初期是不會那麼高對 初期一定不會那麼高所以我們過去的這個現在雖然講說3%我們認為3%其實是應該可以滿足這個市場的需求到2028年以後如果這個AI的熱潮整個非常的好"},{"start":250.714,"end":277.291,"text":"那麼我們就是要比較擔心但是我想因為我們現在在看觀察我們是動態的在觀察所以我們現在另外一個我可以在這個地方跟各位報告就是說大家都擔心我們店可能不夠不過我們從現在一直在檢討做這個節能的這個方案所以這個方案如果我推的下去的話我事實上非常有機會來滿足"},{"start":280.093,"end":306.404,"text":"這是2025到2028的成長那我想要了解的就是目前大家都認為說你說未來就是政府部門不應該再就是撥補給台電嗎那電價電價會不會漲是不是你看這是台電的資產負債表4月底的資產負債表它累計的虧損是4400億這樣子高的數字那如果未來"},{"start":308.072,"end":335.117,"text":"政府部門過去都是由政府部門吸收以及當初你也講的你原本是要降低就是平均的發電的成本嘛因為從你過去的經驗你認為台電應該要降低平均發電的成本那未來有沒有可能那如果目前大家看來好像核能是比較成本是相對比較低的這個情況下"},{"start":336.337,"end":343.731,"text":"那未來沒有可能降低那政府部門又不撥補的情況下那是不是勢必電價就會"},{"start":345.851,"end":373.501,"text":"如果我們沒有從效益上面去推估那麼只從這個成本上面去考量的話就會像這個委員你所指教的不過我認為啦這個一個公司的經營必須要看我這個營運的效益跟我所使用材料的成本跟我人力我想這個成本的部分我們除了這個材料的成本以外人力的成本然後運作的這個效益"},{"start":374.401,"end":394.846,"text":"這些都是我可以去努力的部分那雖然我們材料成本佔非常的高不過我們現在就是就是女人的成本嗎?天然氣跟燃煤的成本嗎?您所說的關心的這個核能的這個成本如果核能成本我全部替換了以後我事實上每一度增加的成本並不高"},{"start":396.346,"end":401.814,"text":"並不高因為過去我們的這個核能只佔了這個目前是只佔了這個6%到7%所以他真的這個"},{"start":407.767,"end":430.504,"text":"90幾%的成本在那邊是固定的這個部分真的能佔的部分太小它所影響出來的價格是非常的小的我必須要由一些妥善率或者是漏食的部分或者是一些績效不好的地方去努力報告委員我們現在最快的方式就是去推動節能方案"},{"start":431.686,"end":435.919,"text":"節能方案就是ESCO這個方案那麼這個方案我可以讓業者"},{"start":438.444,"end":467.779,"text":"他們也可以降低它的這個電費那多久可以執行?你節能的方向多久可以執行?因為你必須要在這個缺口產生之前嘛是不是?你如果這樣子說然後這樣子會增加企業多少的成本那你不能只用高科技產業來看你必須要看影響就業人口最多數的中小企業的人"},{"start":468.319,"end":492.974,"text":"他會增加多少成本?基本上我們先滿足中小企業以及一般的商家跟一般的住家的用電我們朝向這一部分剛才我想楊委員也有特別指導我們這一部分的話就是按照這個院長他如果說只是這一部分我們不長的話我們就努力朝這個部分來努力的"},{"start":493.988,"end":510.218,"text":"所以你在不漲電價的情況下你是以節能的方式去因應嗎對對對我們會朝著這個節能的部分來努力臺電的成本呢臺電的虧損呢臺電不會產生虧損不會產生虧損如果我們這個推的數據的話臺電會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉是你說的是不是我說的"},{"start":523.611,"end":551.085,"text":"經營公司我想我們不可能讓它倒閉啦這個財務有財務的問題我們會去努力但是我個人認為經營一個公司最重要是效益跟效率的問題台電會不會倒閉那如果不會倒閉就不會產生你的認知是這樣是不是你是說不會缺電不會缺電也不會倒閉不會也不會增加成本"},{"start":552.708,"end":558.373,"text":"不會增加成本也不會有虧損過去的虧損是新的不會虧損對 新的不會虧損總經理要不要說一下是不是不會虧損"},{"start":568.297,"end":582.24,"text":"報告委員部長因為來自於企業界他對整個成本方面都會有要求那我們會把整個的細節再分析給部長聽到時候會做比較詳細的一個瞭解之後再判斷好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}}}