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10:59:43","影片長度":"00:11:46","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:47:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:59:43+08:00","duration":706,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":570,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時48分）謝謝主席，請國發會劉主委、經濟部郭部長，還有國科會林副主委。"],["主席：請以上三位。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝主席今天特別針對AI安排一個專題報告，過去這一、兩個禮拜以來因為COMPUTEX，輝達（NVIDIA）執行長到臺灣也引起了一個很大的旋風，不僅讓全世界都看到臺灣在AI領域的重要性，也讓臺灣除了在半導體有護國神山之外，可能還會有很多護國神山陸續生成，我們也非常開心。可是我覺得在AI的部分有「三力」一定要去處理，一個是人力、一個是算力、一個是電力，這「三力」是發展AI很重要的三個不同領域，因為很多委員同仁都有提到人力和電力的部分，我想先從算力來切入，比較少人講到算力部分。我要特別先問一下國發會主委，我們在講發展AI的時候好像沒有看到從政府的角度，對於整個國家算力提升的部分有一個很具體的作法，後續有沒有一些具體要去做的部分，主委可不可以先講一下？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：報告委員，分工上是由國科會主導，是不是由他先做說明，我再補充？"],["鄭委員正鈐：國科會先做說明，OK，算力是整個AI裡面很重要的一環，你要讓國科會先講也沒問題，讓國科會先來回應一下。"],["林副主任委員法正：跟委員報告，目前整個國網的算力大概是36Pflop/s，相較於韓國和日本，比起來的確是差很多，現在韓國和日本都有四、五百以上，所以我們未來如果要以AI去發展百工百業，讓臺灣成為一個AI大國的話，我們在算力的確要大幅……"],["鄭委員正鈐：確實不夠嘛！"],["林副主任委員法正：確實不夠。"],["鄭委員正鈐：副主委，因為本席從上一屆對整個國家算力的部分就非常關注，坦白說，我舉個簡單的例子，我們國網中心支援了半導體研究中心，半導體研究中心支援了很多高校的研究計畫，但是一堆學生抱怨根本都跑不動，排程跑不動，實驗跑不動，光是一個學術單位都沒辦法支援的時候，你要怎麼樣去帶動產業，我其實是很懷疑的。我後來調了所有的預算，我看到跟整個算力提供有關的大概只有國研院下面有一個高效能計算技術研發建置與維運，今（113）年的預算總共只有6.2億，其實非常少，其中還包括維運的部分，建置的部分又再砍一半，這樣我覺得要用國家的力量來支援算力，本席是非常擔心的。可是當我們現在整個在做，尤其像今天在做AI的主題當中，我們還是希望當整個產業從數位轉型走到AI轉型的時候，政府必須要更有一些算力掌控在手上，作為政策工具，我這樣講應該是對的，對不對？"],["林副主任委員法正：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：目前看起來，如果只靠國網中心，國網中心本來就是支援學術研究的機制，對產業來說，其實遠遠地不夠，請教郭部長，因為我看到你之前在業務報告有特別提到，在推動產業AI應用的部分，你提到本部爭取國際大廠免費提供AI超級電腦部分的算力資源，要加速建構臺灣專屬生成式AI核心技術，以經濟部的角度來看，經濟部的算力也是要依靠企業這邊來支持，是這樣子嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部的算力有經濟部的預算。"],["鄭委員正鈐：經濟部有哪些具體的預算在提升算力，可不可以具體說明？"],["郭部長智輝：我剛剛講的超級電腦是國外廠商捐助的，應該也有其他的費用會支持它運作。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，這個部分你再補給我，因為你剛上任對這個部分可能不一定那麼瞭解，因為經濟部對於算力提升的部分其實很有限，而且並沒有具體計畫。針對目前臺灣一些重要的超級電腦算力，我們來看一下圖，這是目前臺灣幾個比較重要的超級電腦，目前排第一個是Taipei-1，是由輝達提供的，這部分經濟部A+計畫中有支持60億左右的預算，所以部長提到要用企業的資源，我以為你要用的是這個部分。這個部分本席也接受，因為經濟部有補助經費，如果要從Taipei-1 share資源給政府使用或企業使用，我都覺得可以，沒有不行，你剛剛提到經濟部有另外的算力中心計畫，你再提供資料給我，因為我目前看預算書是沒有看到的。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我要講的狀態是，目前臺灣這幾個重要的超級電腦當中，排名第二個是氣象署的超級電腦，第三個是台灣杉二號，目前是全世界排名第106，它剛成立的時候是排名第20，本來是很好的狀態，現在完全往後退了。我們接下來看，臺灣排名比較前面的這些超級電腦，有兩個是氣象署的，有兩個是國網中心的，一個是ASUS，另外一個是輝達，大概是這樣。以這個部分來看，我覺得臺灣的算力其實是明顯不足，我剛剛舉這個例子，前年我在質詢國網中心預算的時候就覺得這個部分是不夠的，雖然今年的預算有增加百分之十幾，可是金額還是非常小，對於臺灣要成就一個算力中心，我覺得是非常不夠。所以我希望國發會主委能夠橫向聯繫，和經濟部、國科會一起來提升，檢討怎麼讓臺灣的算力是足夠的，因為當算力不夠的話，要發展AI其實是緣木求魚，我在這邊特別提出這個部分。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我順便補充一下，現在國科會在沙崙規劃了一個超級電腦中心，可以提供超過100Pflop/s，另外，在晶創計畫也會再往上加，應該會額外增加一百多Pflop/s。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你們在晶創計畫中要成立新的算力中心，對不對？在晶創計畫10年的過程當中，你們要建立兩個算力中心，國科院副主委，對不對？"],["林副主任委員法正：跟委員報告，晶創是未來5年我們會增加100個Pflop/s，另外，我們也會在沙崙積極再蓋一個超級電腦中心，就是為了發展AI，以上報告。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，這個部分我們就拭目以待。接下來，我還是要特別提到電力，事實上算力其實就是電力，我要特別問一下郭部長，坦白說，你在就職之前來拜訪的時候就特別提到，我們也見諸媒體，你覺得電力提供充足是最重要的關鍵，從企業界來看，一定需要有電力，當時你也提到核三延役是選項之一，到時候如果不夠的時候，核三延役。可是你吃了一頓飯之後，我就發現變了，我要講一個重點，說實話，你從企業界來接這個位置，大家對你有很多的期待，因為大家認為也許你可以把企業經營的概念和務實的態度引進政府部門，所以我們希望你能夠堅持對的事情。我要特別講，其實對於核能的狀態，整個世界也都在改變，你上次有回答我，你們也在關注很多新科技的部分，至少目前為止，在發展高科技產業中，包括微軟、Amazon、OpenAI，他們都已經很具體要自己去投入核電站，就是因為他們覺得電力供應非常重要。你從高科技來，我希望你對於電力的供應能夠更務實，你去吃了飯之後跟我們講現在電力是夠的，未來也都會夠，即使碰到了AI的爆炸期之後還是夠，我希望你到時候可以到本辦公室做更細部的說明。我這邊也要給你一個鼓勵，因為你去吃了飯之後，政策改變的時候，很多竹科的朋友開始擔心你會做不久，說實話，因為他們覺得你會不適應，可是問題是大家又希望你能夠帶來一些改變，針對這個部分你可不可以簡單做一個回應？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，核三的問題是有很多假設性和前提，我可能說話不夠精準，不過這部分的報告，我會更精準來跟委員報告。關於新的核能，剛才你所指導的三家公司是第四代核能，我們對新的核能科技會持續觀察、持續注意，如果它能夠得到國人的同意，我想我們會有一些考慮。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對第四代核能，你反而覺得是一個可以考慮的方向，我再補充一個重點，美國很重要的財經媒體CNBC今天也特別報導臺灣面臨缺電的問題，當全國都在熱情地表達支持半導體產業，表達支持AI的時候，我們也不能夠忽略這兩個確實都是吃電的特別產業，所以連美國的財經媒體都擔心臺灣電力不夠的時候，我希望部長能夠加快去做一些調整，到時候給本辦公室一個很詳細的報告，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝，以上。"],["主席：謝謝，我們現在休息3分鐘。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時6分）"],["主席：好，謝謝，大家辛苦了，我們繼續開會，請就座。","現在請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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\"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 279.807, \"end\": 280.067, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 280.067, \"end\": 280.607, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 280.607, \"end\": 281.507, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 281.507, \"end\": 282.408, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"免\", \"start\": 282.408, \"end\": 282.968, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 282.968, \"end\": 283.248, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 283.248, \"end\": 283.268, \"score\": 0.868}]}, {\"start\": 283.928, \"end\": 300.405, \"text\": \"AI超級電腦部分算力資源提到算力資源那麼要加速建構台灣專屬生成式AI核心技術這個部分所以就是說以經濟部的角度來看的時候經濟部的算力也是要依靠企業這邊來支持是這樣子嗎經濟部的算力有經濟部的這個預算吧\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 283.928, \"end\": 284.128, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 284.128, \"end\": 284.429, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 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\"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 298.724, \"end\": 298.764, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 298.764, \"end\": 298.904, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 298.904, \"end\": 298.964, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 298.964, \"end\": 299.084, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 299.084, \"end\": 299.184, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 299.184, \"end\": 299.224, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 299.224, \"end\": 299.504, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 299.504, \"end\": 299.785, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 299.785, \"end\": 300.005, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 300.005, \"end\": 300.085, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 300.085, \"end\": 300.125, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 300.125, \"end\": 300.385, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 300.385, \"end\": 300.405, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 306.774, \"end\": 335.253, \"text\": \"經濟部有哪些具體的預算在提升算力可以具體說明我剛才講的那個是超級電腦那個是國外的廠商來輔助的然後應該也有這個其他的這個費用會支持他那這個部分部長你這部分你再補給我因為我想你剛才對這部分可能不那麼了解因為經濟部這邊對於算力提升的部分其實很有限而且並沒有自己具體的一個計畫針對目前台灣的一些重要的一些超級電腦的一個算力我們來看一下圖\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 306.774, \"end\": 306.854, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 306.854, \"end\": 307.034, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 307.034, \"end\": 307.195, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 307.195, \"end\": 307.355, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 307.355, \"end\": 307.515, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 307.515, \"end\": 307.835, \"score\": 0.812}, 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\"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 703.201, \"end\": 703.241, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 703.241, \"end\": 703.361, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 703.361, \"end\": 704.582, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 704.582, \"end\": 704.702, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 704.702, \"end\": 704.822, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 704.822, \"end\": 704.842, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:20,203\n接下來我們請鄭振賢委員請坐巡檔謝主席我想請一下國發會劉主委、經濟部郭部長還有我們國科會的林部主委請以上三位\n\n2\n00:00:29,562 --> 00:00:53,008\n謝謝主席今天特別針對AI這個部分做了一個安排的一個專題報告那我在想說過去這一兩個禮拜以來因為Computex就是那個輝達NVIDIA他們經常到台灣來的時候也引起了一個很大的一個旋風那讓全世界都看到台灣在AI這領域的一個重要性那也讓台灣\n\n3\n00:00:54,028 --> 00:01:08,608\n就是認為除了在半導體這個護國神山之外的時候我們可能還會有很多護國神山會陸續的一個生成我們也非常的開心可是在講AI這部分的時候我覺得有三個例三例\n\n4\n00:01:09,409 --> 00:01:33,414\n一定要去處理的一個是人力一個是算力一個是電力這三立我覺得是發展我們AI很重要的三個不同的領域那我在想說我目前因為很多委員同仁也都提到了人力跟電力的一個部分那我覺得這個部分我想先從算力這邊來切入算力這邊比較少人講\n\n5\n00:01:34,474 --> 00:02:03,573\n那我這邊也要特別先問一下國防會主委這邊因為我們在講發展AI當中的時候可是好像沒有看到一個從政府的一個角度對於整個國家算力提升的部分有一個很具體的一個做法這個部分有沒有一些具體的後續要去做的部分那個主委這邊可以先講一下報委員這個分工上能不能請國科會來他主導我請他是不是先做說明我再補充\n\n6\n00:02:04,820 --> 00:02:19,168\n讓國科會做說明是不是這個部分我本來是要講說整個AI相關的部分因為算力是整個AI裡面很重要的一環那整個AI這個部分的時候如果說你要讓國科會這邊先講的時候也沒問題我想說讓國科會這邊先來回應一下\n\n7\n00:02:23,837 --> 00:02:42,227\n那個跟委員報告目前整個國網的算力大概是36的PetaFlow的PF那相較於這個韓國跟日本比起來的確是差很多現在韓國跟日本都有四五百以上那麼所以呢我們未來如果要以\n\n8\n00:02:42,907 --> 00:03:11,703\nAI去發展百工百業然後讓台灣成為一個AI的大國的話的確是我們在算力事要大幅...確實不夠嘛確實不夠因為其實本席從上一屆當中的時候對於整個國家算力的部分就非常的關注我們國網中心坦白說我舉個簡單的例子我們國網中心支援了半導體研究中心半導體研究中心它支援了很多高校裡面大家的一個研究的一個計畫一堆學生在抱怨裡面根本都跑不動\n\n9\n00:03:13,024 --> 00:03:32,638\n就是排程跑不動那時間都跑不動然後光是一個學術單位都沒辦法支援的時候你要怎麼樣去帶動產業這個部分我其實是很懷疑的我後來去看了一下調了一下我們所有的預算就看到我們跟整個算力提供有關的大概只有在整個國研院下面\n\n10\n00:03:33,479 --> 00:03:53,092\n有一個高效能計算技術研發建置與維運今年113的預算總共只有6.6億,非常的少總共只有6.2億,抱歉只有6.2億,其實非常的少這裡面還包括維運的部分建置的部分又再砍一半所以我覺得以這樣的部分要用\n\n11\n00:03:54,032 --> 00:04:17,041\n國家的力量來支援算力我就本席是非常擔心的可是我覺得因為算力其實當我們現在整個在做尤其像今天在做AI的一個主題當中我們還希望讓整個產業從數位轉型走到AI轉型的時候那政府就必須要更有一些算力掌控在手上作為我們一些政策的工具我這樣講應該是對的嘛對不對\n\n12\n00:04:19,262 --> 00:04:43,268\n所以目前看起來若只靠國網中現在國網中本來就是在支援學術研究的一個機制對產業來說其實是遠遠的不夠所以我在這邊請教一下郭部長因為我在看你在針對之前那個業務報告的時候你有特別提到就是在整個推動產業AI應用的部分你提到說本部爭取國際大廠免費提供\n\n13\n00:04:43,928 --> 00:05:00,405\nAI超級電腦部分算力資源提到算力資源那麼要加速建構台灣專屬生成式AI核心技術這個部分所以就是說以經濟部的角度來看的時候經濟部的算力也是要依靠企業這邊來支持是這樣子嗎經濟部的算力有經濟部的這個預算吧\n\n14\n00:05:06,774 --> 00:05:35,253\n經濟部有哪些具體的預算在提升算力可以具體說明我剛才講的那個是超級電腦那個是國外的廠商來輔助的然後應該也有這個其他的這個費用會支持他那這個部分部長你這部分你再補給我因為我想你剛才對這部分可能不那麼了解因為經濟部這邊對於算力提升的部分其實很有限而且並沒有自己具體的一個計畫針對目前台灣的一些重要的一些超級電腦的一個算力我們來看一下圖\n\n15\n00:05:37,955 --> 00:06:01,693\n這個是目前就台灣幾個比較重要的一個超級電腦的一個部分目前排第一個是台北萬是輝達提供的那提供部分這當然就是經濟部這邊有大Aplus計畫當中有支持60億左右的一個預算所以我在想說部長這邊提到說要用企業的資源我以為你要用的是這個部分\n\n16\n00:06:02,473 --> 00:06:25,869\n那這個部分本席也接受因為經濟部有補助經費那麼要從台北灣這邊去share資源給政府來使用給企業使用我都覺得可以沒有不行所以你剛剛提到說我們經濟部有另外的一個算力的一個研究中心算力中心的一個計畫你再提供給我因為我目前看預算書是沒有看到的那我要講的狀態是目前台灣的這幾個重要的超級電腦當中排名第二個是\n\n17\n00:06:32,894 --> 00:06:59,413\n氣象署的超級電腦第三個就是台三二號這個部分排名目前是排名106全世界排名106他剛成立的時候排名第20排名第20本來是很好的一個狀態現在完全往後退了那我們接下來再看到就是接下來的部分呢台灣這邊排名比較前面的這些超級電腦的部分就是兩個是\n\n18\n00:07:01,856 --> 00:07:16,009\n兩個是氣象署的兩個是國網中心的兩個氣象署兩個國網中心然後一個是額述室另外一個是輝達大概就是這樣子那以這個部分來看的時候呢我覺得台灣的算力其實是明顯的不足我剛剛舉這個例子\n\n19\n00:07:17,150 --> 00:07:38,380\n就從前年的時候我在看在質詢就是我們國防中心預算的時候我就覺得整個這部分是不夠的可是雖然今年的預算有增加十幾%可是金額還是非常的小對於台灣要去成就這樣的一個算力中心我覺得是非常的不夠那所以這部分我希望說就國發會主委這一邊你能夠\n\n20\n00:07:39,500 --> 00:07:54,270\n跟橫向聯繫跟我們經濟部跟我們國科會這邊一起來提升看怎麼樣子來讓台灣的算力是夠的因為算力不夠的時候AI要去發展其實是緣木求魚我覺得這部分在這邊特別提這個部分\n\n21\n00:07:55,531 --> 00:08:24,130\n謝謝委員我順便補充一下我們現在國科會在沙倫這邊規劃一個超級電腦中心會超過100的PetaFlow那另外在金創計畫以後再往上加那應該會額外增加100多的PetaFlow所以我們在金創計畫當中的時候要成立就是新的我們的算力中心是這樣子嘛對不對在金創計畫接下來10年過程當中我們要建立兩個我們的算力中心對不對國科會主委\n\n22\n00:08:25,071 --> 00:08:27,794\n這個部分我們就拭目以待接下來的部分我覺得我還是要特別提到電力因為事實上算力器就是電力\n\n23\n00:08:45,069 --> 00:08:59,975\n那我這邊要特別問一下郭部長因為坦白說你在就職之前的時候來拜訪的時候你就特別提到了說我們也建築媒體就是說你就是電力提供充足是最重要的一個關鍵從企業界來一定需要有電力嘛\n\n24\n00:09:00,835 --> 00:09:09,423\n那當時你也提到河山研議其實是選項之一因為到時候要如果不夠的時候河山研議可是因為你吃了一頓飯之後我發現變了那這個部分我要講一個點就是說說實話你從企業界來接這個位置大家對你有很多的期待\n\n25\n00:09:17,850 --> 00:09:44,368\n因為大家認為也許你可以把企業經營的概念跟務實的態度引進政府的部門所以我們希望你能夠堅持對的事情那我這邊要特別講其實整個河南的狀態其實整個世界也在改變你上次你有回答我說你們也在關注很多新科技的一個部分那至少目前為止在發展整個高科技產業當中包括微軟包括Amazon\n\n26\n00:09:44,988 --> 00:09:59,925\n包括openAI他們都已經很具體要自己去投入核電站那這個部分就是因為他們覺得電力供應非常非常的重要那你從高科技來我希望你對於電力的供應能夠更務實那你\n\n27\n00:10:00,606 --> 00:10:16,722\n去吃了飯之後你跟我們講說現在電力是夠的未來也都會夠即使碰到了AI的一個爆炸期之後還會夠那我希望你到時候到本辦公室做更細部的一個說明那我這邊也要給你一個鼓勵因為你去吃了飯之後這個政策改變的時候很多\n\n28\n00:10:17,813 --> 00:10:43,173\n竹科的朋友開始擔心你會做不久說實話因為他們覺得你會不適應可是問題是大家又希望你能夠帶來一些改變針對這個部分你可以簡單做一個回應報告委員我想這個河山的問題這個是有很多假設性跟前提我可能說話不夠精準不過我想這部分這個報告的部分我會更精準來跟委員報告\n\n29\n00:10:43,914 --> 00:11:03,796\n那麼這個新的核能,剛才您所知道的這三家公司,它是第四代的核能那麼我們對新的核能科技,我們會持續的觀察,持續的注意那如果它能夠得到我們國人大家的同意,我想我們會有一些考慮\n\n30\n00:11:05,437 --> 00:11:29,285\n所以說針對第四代合理反而是可以考慮的一個方向那今天我再補一個CNBC美國一個很重要的財經媒體他今天也特別報導了台灣面臨缺電的一個問題當我們整個全國都在熱情地表達支持半導體產業表達支持AI的部分可是我們也不能夠忽略這兩個確實都是吃電的一個\n\n31\n00:11:30,666 --> 00:11:44,842\n特別的一個產業所以連美國的財經媒體都擔心台灣電力不夠的時候我希望部長這邊的時候也能夠加快的去做一些調整然後到時候給本辦公室一個很詳細的一個報告好不好好的謝謝以上好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t20203\t接下來我們請鄭振賢委員請坐巡檔謝主席我想請一下國發會劉主委、經濟部郭部長還有我們國科會的林部主委請以上三位\n29562\t53008\t謝謝主席今天特別針對AI這個部分做了一個安排的一個專題報告那我在想說過去這一兩個禮拜以來因為Computex就是那個輝達NVIDIA他們經常到台灣來的時候也引起了一個很大的一個旋風那讓全世界都看到台灣在AI這領域的一個重要性那也讓台灣\n54028\t68608\t就是認為除了在半導體這個護國神山之外的時候我們可能還會有很多護國神山會陸續的一個生成我們也非常的開心可是在講AI這部分的時候我覺得有三個例三例\n69409\t93414\t一定要去處理的一個是人力 一個是算力 一個是電力這三立我覺得是發展我們AI很重要的三個不同的領域那我在想說我目前因為很多委員同仁也都提到了人力跟電力的一個部分那我覺得這個部分我想先從算力這邊來切入算力這邊比較少人講\n94474\t123573\t那我這邊也要特別先問一下國防會主委這邊因為我們在講發展AI當中的時候可是好像沒有看到一個從政府的一個角度對於整個國家算力提升的部分有一個很具體的一個做法這個部分有沒有一些具體的後續要去做的部分那個主委這邊可以先講一下報委員這個分工上能不能請國科會來他主導我請他是不是先做說明我再補充\n124820\t139168\t讓國科會做說明是不是這個部分我本來是要講說整個AI相關的部分因為算力是整個AI裡面很重要的一環那整個AI這個部分的時候如果說你要讓國科會這邊先講的時候也沒問題我想說讓國科會這邊先來回應一下\n143837\t162227\t那個跟委員報告目前整個國網的算力大概是36的Peta Flow的PF那相較於這個韓國跟日本比起來的確是差很多現在韓國跟日本都有四五百以上那麼所以呢我們未來如果要以\n162907\t191703\tAI去發展百工百業然後讓台灣成為一個AI的大國的話的確是我們在算力事要大幅...確實不夠嘛 確實不夠因為其實本席從上一屆當中的時候對於整個國家算力的部分就非常的關注我們國網中心 坦白說我舉個簡單的例子我們國網中心支援了半導體研究中心半導體研究中心它支援了很多高校裡面大家的一個研究的一個計畫一堆學生在抱怨 裡面根本都跑不動\n193024\t212638\t就是排程跑不動那時間都跑不動然後光是一個學術單位都沒辦法支援的時候你要怎麼樣去帶動產業這個部分我其實是很懷疑的我後來去看了一下調了一下我們所有的預算就看到我們跟整個算力提供有關的大概只有在整個國研院下面\n213479\t233092\t有一個高效能計算技術研發建置與維運今年113的預算總共只有6.6億,非常的少總共只有6.2億,抱歉只有6.2億,其實非常的少這裡面還包括維運的部分建置的部分又再砍一半所以我覺得以這樣的部分要用\n234032\t257041\t國家的力量來支援算力我就本席是非常擔心的可是我覺得因為算力其實當我們現在整個在做尤其像今天在做AI的一個主題當中我們還希望讓整個產業從數位轉型走到AI轉型的時候那政府就必須要更有一些算力掌控在手上作為我們一些政策的工具我這樣講應該是對的嘛 對不對\n259262\t283268\t所以目前看起來若只靠國網中現在國網中本來就是在支援學術研究的一個機制對產業來說其實是遠遠的不夠所以我在這邊請教一下郭部長因為我在看你在針對之前那個業務報告的時候你有特別提到就是在整個推動產業AI應用的部分你提到說本部爭取國際大廠免費提供\n283928\t300405\tAI超級電腦部分算力資源提到算力資源那麼要加速建構台灣專屬生成式AI核心技術這個部分所以就是說以經濟部的角度來看的時候經濟部的算力也是要依靠企業這邊來支持是這樣子嗎經濟部的算力有經濟部的這個預算吧\n306774\t335253\t經濟部有哪些具體的預算在提升算力可以具體說明我剛才講的那個是超級電腦那個是國外的廠商來輔助的然後應該也有這個其他的這個費用會支持他那這個部分部長你這部分你再補給我因為我想你剛才對這部分可能不那麼了解因為經濟部這邊對於算力提升的部分其實很有限而且並沒有自己具體的一個計畫針對目前台灣的一些重要的一些超級電腦的一個算力我們來看一下圖\n337955\t361693\t這個是目前就台灣幾個比較重要的一個超級電腦的一個部分目前排第一個是台北萬是輝達提供的那提供部分這當然就是經濟部這邊有大Aplus計畫當中有支持60億左右的一個預算所以我在想說部長這邊提到說要用企業的資源我以為你要用的是這個部分\n362473\t385869\t那這個部分本席也接受因為經濟部有補助經費那麼要從台北灣這邊去share資源給政府來使用給企業使用我都覺得可以沒有不行所以你剛剛提到說我們經濟部有另外的一個算力的一個研究中心算力中心的一個計畫你再提供給我因為我目前看預算書是沒有看到的那我要講的狀態是目前台灣的這幾個重要的超級電腦當中排名第二個是\n392894\t419413\t氣象署的超級電腦第三個就是台三二號這個部分排名目前是排名106全世界排名106他剛成立的時候排名第20排名第20本來是很好的一個狀態現在完全往後退了那我們接下來再看到就是接下來的部分呢台灣這邊排名比較前面的這些超級電腦的部分就是兩個是\n421856\t436009\t兩個是氣象署的兩個是國網中心的兩個氣象署兩個國網中心然後一個是額述室另外一個是輝達大概就是這樣子那以這個部分來看的時候呢我覺得台灣的算力其實是明顯的不足我剛剛舉這個例子\n437150\t458380\t就從前年的時候我在看在質詢就是我們國防中心預算的時候我就覺得整個這部分是不夠的可是雖然今年的預算有增加十幾%可是金額還是非常的小對於台灣要去成就這樣的一個算力中心我覺得是非常的不夠那所以這部分我希望說就國發會主委這一邊你能夠\n459500\t474270\t跟橫向聯繫跟我們經濟部跟我們國科會這邊一起來提升看怎麼樣子來讓台灣的算力是夠的因為算力不夠的時候AI要去發展其實是緣木求魚我覺得這部分在這邊特別提這個部分\n475531\t504130\t謝謝委員我順便補充一下我們現在國科會在沙倫這邊規劃一個超級電腦中心會超過100的Peta Flow那另外在金創計畫以後再往上加那應該會額外增加100多的Peta Flow所以我們在金創計畫當中的時候要成立就是新的我們的算力中心是這樣子嘛 對不對在金創計畫接下來10年過程當中我們要建立兩個我們的算力中心 對不對國科會主委\n505071\t507794\t這個部分我們就拭目以待接下來的部分我覺得我還是要特別提到電力因為事實上算力器就是電力\n525069\t539975\t那我這邊要特別問一下郭部長因為坦白說你在就職之前的時候來拜訪的時候你就特別提到了說我們也建築媒體就是說你就是電力提供充足是最重要的一個關鍵從企業界來一定需要有電力嘛\n540835\t549423\t那當時你也提到河山研議其實是選項之一因為到時候要如果不夠的時候河山研議可是因為你吃了一頓飯之後我發現變了那這個部分我要講一個點就是說說實話你從企業界來接這個位置大家對你有很多的期待\n557850\t584368\t因為大家認為也許你可以把企業經營的概念跟務實的態度引進政府的部門所以我們希望你能夠堅持對的事情那我這邊要特別講其實整個河南的狀態其實整個世界也在改變你上次你有回答我說你們也在關注很多新科技的一個部分那至少目前為止在發展整個高科技產業當中包括微軟包括Amazon\n584988\t599925\t包括openAI他們都已經很具體要自己去投入核電站那這個部分就是因為他們覺得電力供應非常非常的重要那你從高科技來我希望你對於電力的供應能夠更務實那你\n600606\t616722\t去吃了飯之後你跟我們講說現在電力是夠的未來也都會夠即使碰到了AI的一個爆炸期之後還會夠那我希望你到時候到本辦公室做更細部的一個說明那我這邊也要給你一個鼓勵因為你去吃了飯之後這個政策改變的時候很多\n617813\t643173\t竹科的朋友開始擔心你會做不久說實話因為他們覺得你會不適應可是問題是大家又希望你能夠帶來一些改變針對這個部分你可以簡單做一個回應報告委員我想這個河山的問題這個是有很多假設性跟前提我可能說話不夠精準不過我想這部分這個報告的部分我會更精準來跟委員報告\n643914\t663796\t那麼這個新的核能,剛才您所知道的這三家公司,它是第四代的核能那麼我們對新的核能科技,我們會持續的觀察,持續的注意那如果它能夠得到我們國人大家的同意,我想我們會有一些考慮\n665437\t689285\t所以說針對第四代合理反而是可以考慮的一個方向那今天我再補一個CNBC美國一個很重要的財經媒體他今天也特別報導了台灣面臨缺電的一個問題當我們整個全國都在熱情地表達支持半導體產業表達支持AI的部分可是我們也不能夠忽略這兩個確實都是吃電的一個\n690666\t704842\t特別的一個產業所以連美國的財經媒體都擔心台灣電力不夠的時候我希望部長這邊的時候也能夠加快的去做一些調整然後到時候給本辦公室一個很詳細的一個報告好不好好的謝謝 以上好 謝謝\n","txt":"接下來我們請鄭振賢委員請坐巡檔謝主席我想請一下國發會劉主委、經濟部郭部長還有我們國科會的林部主委請以上三位\n謝謝主席今天特別針對AI這個部分做了一個安排的一個專題報告那我在想說過去這一兩個禮拜以來因為Computex就是那個輝達NVIDIA他們經常到台灣來的時候也引起了一個很大的一個旋風那讓全世界都看到台灣在AI這領域的一個重要性那也讓台灣\n就是認為除了在半導體這個護國神山之外的時候我們可能還會有很多護國神山會陸續的一個生成我們也非常的開心可是在講AI這部分的時候我覺得有三個例三例\n一定要去處理的一個是人力 一個是算力 一個是電力這三立我覺得是發展我們AI很重要的三個不同的領域那我在想說我目前因為很多委員同仁也都提到了人力跟電力的一個部分那我覺得這個部分我想先從算力這邊來切入算力這邊比較少人講\n那我這邊也要特別先問一下國防會主委這邊因為我們在講發展AI當中的時候可是好像沒有看到一個從政府的一個角度對於整個國家算力提升的部分有一個很具體的一個做法這個部分有沒有一些具體的後續要去做的部分那個主委這邊可以先講一下報委員這個分工上能不能請國科會來他主導我請他是不是先做說明我再補充\n讓國科會做說明是不是這個部分我本來是要講說整個AI相關的部分因為算力是整個AI裡面很重要的一環那整個AI這個部分的時候如果說你要讓國科會這邊先講的時候也沒問題我想說讓國科會這邊先來回應一下\n那個跟委員報告目前整個國網的算力大概是36的Peta Flow的PF那相較於這個韓國跟日本比起來的確是差很多現在韓國跟日本都有四五百以上那麼所以呢我們未來如果要以\nAI去發展百工百業然後讓台灣成為一個AI的大國的話的確是我們在算力事要大幅...確實不夠嘛 確實不夠因為其實本席從上一屆當中的時候對於整個國家算力的部分就非常的關注我們國網中心 坦白說我舉個簡單的例子我們國網中心支援了半導體研究中心半導體研究中心它支援了很多高校裡面大家的一個研究的一個計畫一堆學生在抱怨 裡面根本都跑不動\n就是排程跑不動那時間都跑不動然後光是一個學術單位都沒辦法支援的時候你要怎麼樣去帶動產業這個部分我其實是很懷疑的我後來去看了一下調了一下我們所有的預算就看到我們跟整個算力提供有關的大概只有在整個國研院下面\n有一個高效能計算技術研發建置與維運今年113的預算總共只有6.6億,非常的少總共只有6.2億,抱歉只有6.2億,其實非常的少這裡面還包括維運的部分建置的部分又再砍一半所以我覺得以這樣的部分要用\n國家的力量來支援算力我就本席是非常擔心的可是我覺得因為算力其實當我們現在整個在做尤其像今天在做AI的一個主題當中我們還希望讓整個產業從數位轉型走到AI轉型的時候那政府就必須要更有一些算力掌控在手上作為我們一些政策的工具我這樣講應該是對的嘛 對不對\n所以目前看起來若只靠國網中現在國網中本來就是在支援學術研究的一個機制對產業來說其實是遠遠的不夠所以我在這邊請教一下郭部長因為我在看你在針對之前那個業務報告的時候你有特別提到就是在整個推動產業AI應用的部分你提到說本部爭取國際大廠免費提供\nAI超級電腦部分算力資源提到算力資源那麼要加速建構台灣專屬生成式AI核心技術這個部分所以就是說以經濟部的角度來看的時候經濟部的算力也是要依靠企業這邊來支持是這樣子嗎經濟部的算力有經濟部的這個預算吧\n經濟部有哪些具體的預算在提升算力可以具體說明我剛才講的那個是超級電腦那個是國外的廠商來輔助的然後應該也有這個其他的這個費用會支持他那這個部分部長你這部分你再補給我因為我想你剛才對這部分可能不那麼了解因為經濟部這邊對於算力提升的部分其實很有限而且並沒有自己具體的一個計畫針對目前台灣的一些重要的一些超級電腦的一個算力我們來看一下圖\n這個是目前就台灣幾個比較重要的一個超級電腦的一個部分目前排第一個是台北萬是輝達提供的那提供部分這當然就是經濟部這邊有大Aplus計畫當中有支持60億左右的一個預算所以我在想說部長這邊提到說要用企業的資源我以為你要用的是這個部分\n那這個部分本席也接受因為經濟部有補助經費那麼要從台北灣這邊去share資源給政府來使用給企業使用我都覺得可以沒有不行所以你剛剛提到說我們經濟部有另外的一個算力的一個研究中心算力中心的一個計畫你再提供給我因為我目前看預算書是沒有看到的那我要講的狀態是目前台灣的這幾個重要的超級電腦當中排名第二個是\n氣象署的超級電腦第三個就是台三二號這個部分排名目前是排名106全世界排名106他剛成立的時候排名第20排名第20本來是很好的一個狀態現在完全往後退了那我們接下來再看到就是接下來的部分呢台灣這邊排名比較前面的這些超級電腦的部分就是兩個是\n兩個是氣象署的兩個是國網中心的兩個氣象署兩個國網中心然後一個是額述室另外一個是輝達大概就是這樣子那以這個部分來看的時候呢我覺得台灣的算力其實是明顯的不足我剛剛舉這個例子\n就從前年的時候我在看在質詢就是我們國防中心預算的時候我就覺得整個這部分是不夠的可是雖然今年的預算有增加十幾%可是金額還是非常的小對於台灣要去成就這樣的一個算力中心我覺得是非常的不夠那所以這部分我希望說就國發會主委這一邊你能夠\n跟橫向聯繫跟我們經濟部跟我們國科會這邊一起來提升看怎麼樣子來讓台灣的算力是夠的因為算力不夠的時候AI要去發展其實是緣木求魚我覺得這部分在這邊特別提這個部分\n謝謝委員我順便補充一下我們現在國科會在沙倫這邊規劃一個超級電腦中心會超過100的Peta Flow那另外在金創計畫以後再往上加那應該會額外增加100多的Peta Flow所以我們在金創計畫當中的時候要成立就是新的我們的算力中心是這樣子嘛 對不對在金創計畫接下來10年過程當中我們要建立兩個我們的算力中心 對不對國科會主委\n這個部分我們就拭目以待接下來的部分我覺得我還是要特別提到電力因為事實上算力器就是電力\n那我這邊要特別問一下郭部長因為坦白說你在就職之前的時候來拜訪的時候你就特別提到了說我們也建築媒體就是說你就是電力提供充足是最重要的一個關鍵從企業界來一定需要有電力嘛\n那當時你也提到河山研議其實是選項之一因為到時候要如果不夠的時候河山研議可是因為你吃了一頓飯之後我發現變了那這個部分我要講一個點就是說說實話你從企業界來接這個位置大家對你有很多的期待\n因為大家認為也許你可以把企業經營的概念跟務實的態度引進政府的部門所以我們希望你能夠堅持對的事情那我這邊要特別講其實整個河南的狀態其實整個世界也在改變你上次你有回答我說你們也在關注很多新科技的一個部分那至少目前為止在發展整個高科技產業當中包括微軟包括Amazon\n包括openAI他們都已經很具體要自己去投入核電站那這個部分就是因為他們覺得電力供應非常非常的重要那你從高科技來我希望你對於電力的供應能夠更務實那你\n去吃了飯之後你跟我們講說現在電力是夠的未來也都會夠即使碰到了AI的一個爆炸期之後還會夠那我希望你到時候到本辦公室做更細部的一個說明那我這邊也要給你一個鼓勵因為你去吃了飯之後這個政策改變的時候很多\n竹科的朋友開始擔心你會做不久說實話因為他們覺得你會不適應可是問題是大家又希望你能夠帶來一些改變針對這個部分你可以簡單做一個回應報告委員我想這個河山的問題這個是有很多假設性跟前提我可能說話不夠精準不過我想這部分這個報告的部分我會更精準來跟委員報告\n那麼這個新的核能,剛才您所知道的這三家公司,它是第四代的核能那麼我們對新的核能科技,我們會持續的觀察,持續的注意那如果它能夠得到我們國人大家的同意,我想我們會有一些考慮\n所以說針對第四代合理反而是可以考慮的一個方向那今天我再補一個CNBC美國一個很重要的財經媒體他今天也特別報導了台灣面臨缺電的一個問題當我們整個全國都在熱情地表達支持半導體產業表達支持AI的部分可是我們也不能夠忽略這兩個確實都是吃電的一個\n特別的一個產業所以連美國的財經媒體都擔心台灣電力不夠的時候我希望部長這邊的時候也能夠加快的去做一些調整然後到時候給本辦公室一個很詳細的一個報告好不好好的謝謝 以上好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:20.203\n接下來我們請鄭振賢委員請坐巡檔謝主席我想請一下國發會劉主委、經濟部郭部長還有我們國科會的林部主委請以上三位\n\n00:29.562 --> 00:53.008\n謝謝主席今天特別針對AI這個部分做了一個安排的一個專題報告那我在想說過去這一兩個禮拜以來因為Computex就是那個輝達NVIDIA他們經常到台灣來的時候也引起了一個很大的一個旋風那讓全世界都看到台灣在AI這領域的一個重要性那也讓台灣\n\n00:54.028 --> 01:08.608\n就是認為除了在半導體這個護國神山之外的時候我們可能還會有很多護國神山會陸續的一個生成我們也非常的開心可是在講AI這部分的時候我覺得有三個例三例\n\n01:09.409 --> 01:33.414\n一定要去處理的一個是人力一個是算力一個是電力這三立我覺得是發展我們AI很重要的三個不同的領域那我在想說我目前因為很多委員同仁也都提到了人力跟電力的一個部分那我覺得這個部分我想先從算力這邊來切入算力這邊比較少人講\n\n01:34.474 --> 02:03.573\n那我這邊也要特別先問一下國防會主委這邊因為我們在講發展AI當中的時候可是好像沒有看到一個從政府的一個角度對於整個國家算力提升的部分有一個很具體的一個做法這個部分有沒有一些具體的後續要去做的部分那個主委這邊可以先講一下報委員這個分工上能不能請國科會來他主導我請他是不是先做說明我再補充\n\n02:04.820 --> 02:19.168\n讓國科會做說明是不是這個部分我本來是要講說整個AI相關的部分因為算力是整個AI裡面很重要的一環那整個AI這個部分的時候如果說你要讓國科會這邊先講的時候也沒問題我想說讓國科會這邊先來回應一下\n\n02:23.837 --> 02:42.227\n那個跟委員報告目前整個國網的算力大概是36的PetaFlow的PF那相較於這個韓國跟日本比起來的確是差很多現在韓國跟日本都有四五百以上那麼所以呢我們未來如果要以\n\n02:42.907 --> 03:11.703\nAI去發展百工百業然後讓台灣成為一個AI的大國的話的確是我們在算力事要大幅...確實不夠嘛確實不夠因為其實本席從上一屆當中的時候對於整個國家算力的部分就非常的關注我們國網中心坦白說我舉個簡單的例子我們國網中心支援了半導體研究中心半導體研究中心它支援了很多高校裡面大家的一個研究的一個計畫一堆學生在抱怨裡面根本都跑不動\n\n03:13.024 --> 03:32.638\n就是排程跑不動那時間都跑不動然後光是一個學術單位都沒辦法支援的時候你要怎麼樣去帶動產業這個部分我其實是很懷疑的我後來去看了一下調了一下我們所有的預算就看到我們跟整個算力提供有關的大概只有在整個國研院下面\n\n03:33.479 --> 03:53.092\n有一個高效能計算技術研發建置與維運今年113的預算總共只有6.6億,非常的少總共只有6.2億,抱歉只有6.2億,其實非常的少這裡面還包括維運的部分建置的部分又再砍一半所以我覺得以這樣的部分要用\n\n03:54.032 --> 04:17.041\n國家的力量來支援算力我就本席是非常擔心的可是我覺得因為算力其實當我們現在整個在做尤其像今天在做AI的一個主題當中我們還希望讓整個產業從數位轉型走到AI轉型的時候那政府就必須要更有一些算力掌控在手上作為我們一些政策的工具我這樣講應該是對的嘛對不對\n\n04:19.262 --> 04:43.268\n所以目前看起來若只靠國網中現在國網中本來就是在支援學術研究的一個機制對產業來說其實是遠遠的不夠所以我在這邊請教一下郭部長因為我在看你在針對之前那個業務報告的時候你有特別提到就是在整個推動產業AI應用的部分你提到說本部爭取國際大廠免費提供\n\n04:43.928 --> 05:00.405\nAI超級電腦部分算力資源提到算力資源那麼要加速建構台灣專屬生成式AI核心技術這個部分所以就是說以經濟部的角度來看的時候經濟部的算力也是要依靠企業這邊來支持是這樣子嗎經濟部的算力有經濟部的這個預算吧\n\n05:06.774 --> 05:35.253\n經濟部有哪些具體的預算在提升算力可以具體說明我剛才講的那個是超級電腦那個是國外的廠商來輔助的然後應該也有這個其他的這個費用會支持他那這個部分部長你這部分你再補給我因為我想你剛才對這部分可能不那麼了解因為經濟部這邊對於算力提升的部分其實很有限而且並沒有自己具體的一個計畫針對目前台灣的一些重要的一些超級電腦的一個算力我們來看一下圖\n\n05:37.955 --> 06:01.693\n這個是目前就台灣幾個比較重要的一個超級電腦的一個部分目前排第一個是台北萬是輝達提供的那提供部分這當然就是經濟部這邊有大Aplus計畫當中有支持60億左右的一個預算所以我在想說部長這邊提到說要用企業的資源我以為你要用的是這個部分\n\n06:02.473 --> 06:25.869\n那這個部分本席也接受因為經濟部有補助經費那麼要從台北灣這邊去share資源給政府來使用給企業使用我都覺得可以沒有不行所以你剛剛提到說我們經濟部有另外的一個算力的一個研究中心算力中心的一個計畫你再提供給我因為我目前看預算書是沒有看到的那我要講的狀態是目前台灣的這幾個重要的超級電腦當中排名第二個是\n\n06:32.894 --> 06:59.413\n氣象署的超級電腦第三個就是台三二號這個部分排名目前是排名106全世界排名106他剛成立的時候排名第20排名第20本來是很好的一個狀態現在完全往後退了那我們接下來再看到就是接下來的部分呢台灣這邊排名比較前面的這些超級電腦的部分就是兩個是\n\n07:01.856 --> 07:16.009\n兩個是氣象署的兩個是國網中心的兩個氣象署兩個國網中心然後一個是額述室另外一個是輝達大概就是這樣子那以這個部分來看的時候呢我覺得台灣的算力其實是明顯的不足我剛剛舉這個例子\n\n07:17.150 --> 07:38.380\n就從前年的時候我在看在質詢就是我們國防中心預算的時候我就覺得整個這部分是不夠的可是雖然今年的預算有增加十幾%可是金額還是非常的小對於台灣要去成就這樣的一個算力中心我覺得是非常的不夠那所以這部分我希望說就國發會主委這一邊你能夠\n\n07:39.500 --> 07:54.270\n跟橫向聯繫跟我們經濟部跟我們國科會這邊一起來提升看怎麼樣子來讓台灣的算力是夠的因為算力不夠的時候AI要去發展其實是緣木求魚我覺得這部分在這邊特別提這個部分\n\n07:55.531 --> 08:24.130\n謝謝委員我順便補充一下我們現在國科會在沙倫這邊規劃一個超級電腦中心會超過100的PetaFlow那另外在金創計畫以後再往上加那應該會額外增加100多的PetaFlow所以我們在金創計畫當中的時候要成立就是新的我們的算力中心是這樣子嘛對不對在金創計畫接下來10年過程當中我們要建立兩個我們的算力中心對不對國科會主委\n\n08:25.071 --> 08:27.794\n這個部分我們就拭目以待接下來的部分我覺得我還是要特別提到電力因為事實上算力器就是電力\n\n08:45.069 --> 08:59.975\n那我這邊要特別問一下郭部長因為坦白說你在就職之前的時候來拜訪的時候你就特別提到了說我們也建築媒體就是說你就是電力提供充足是最重要的一個關鍵從企業界來一定需要有電力嘛\n\n09:00.835 --> 09:09.423\n那當時你也提到河山研議其實是選項之一因為到時候要如果不夠的時候河山研議可是因為你吃了一頓飯之後我發現變了那這個部分我要講一個點就是說說實話你從企業界來接這個位置大家對你有很多的期待\n\n09:17.850 --> 09:44.368\n因為大家認為也許你可以把企業經營的概念跟務實的態度引進政府的部門所以我們希望你能夠堅持對的事情那我這邊要特別講其實整個河南的狀態其實整個世界也在改變你上次你有回答我說你們也在關注很多新科技的一個部分那至少目前為止在發展整個高科技產業當中包括微軟包括Amazon\n\n09:44.988 --> 09:59.925\n包括openAI他們都已經很具體要自己去投入核電站那這個部分就是因為他們覺得電力供應非常非常的重要那你從高科技來我希望你對於電力的供應能夠更務實那你\n\n10:00.606 --> 10:16.722\n去吃了飯之後你跟我們講說現在電力是夠的未來也都會夠即使碰到了AI的一個爆炸期之後還會夠那我希望你到時候到本辦公室做更細部的一個說明那我這邊也要給你一個鼓勵因為你去吃了飯之後這個政策改變的時候很多\n\n10:17.813 --> 10:43.173\n竹科的朋友開始擔心你會做不久說實話因為他們覺得你會不適應可是問題是大家又希望你能夠帶來一些改變針對這個部分你可以簡單做一個回應報告委員我想這個河山的問題這個是有很多假設性跟前提我可能說話不夠精準不過我想這部分這個報告的部分我會更精準來跟委員報告\n\n10:43.914 --> 11:03.796\n那麼這個新的核能,剛才您所知道的這三家公司,它是第四代的核能那麼我們對新的核能科技,我們會持續的觀察,持續的注意那如果它能夠得到我們國人大家的同意,我想我們會有一些考慮\n\n11:05.437 --> 11:29.285\n所以說針對第四代合理反而是可以考慮的一個方向那今天我再補一個CNBC美國一個很重要的財經媒體他今天也特別報導了台灣面臨缺電的一個問題當我們整個全國都在熱情地表達支持半導體產業表達支持AI的部分可是我們也不能夠忽略這兩個確實都是吃電的一個\n\n11:30.666 --> 11:44.842\n特別的一個產業所以連美國的財經媒體都擔心台灣電力不夠的時候我希望部長這邊的時候也能夠加快的去做一些調整然後到時候給本辦公室一個很詳細的一個報告好不好好的謝謝以上好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":20.203,"text":"接下來我們請鄭振賢委員請坐巡檔謝主席我想請一下國發會劉主委、經濟部郭部長還有我們國科會的林部主委請以上三位"},{"start":29.562,"end":53.008,"text":"謝謝主席今天特別針對AI這個部分做了一個安排的一個專題報告那我在想說過去這一兩個禮拜以來因為Computex就是那個輝達NVIDIA他們經常到台灣來的時候也引起了一個很大的一個旋風那讓全世界都看到台灣在AI這領域的一個重要性那也讓台灣"},{"start":54.028,"end":68.608,"text":"就是認為除了在半導體這個護國神山之外的時候我們可能還會有很多護國神山會陸續的一個生成我們也非常的開心可是在講AI這部分的時候我覺得有三個例三例"},{"start":69.409,"end":93.414,"text":"一定要去處理的一個是人力 一個是算力 一個是電力這三立我覺得是發展我們AI很重要的三個不同的領域那我在想說我目前因為很多委員同仁也都提到了人力跟電力的一個部分那我覺得這個部分我想先從算力這邊來切入算力這邊比較少人講"},{"start":94.474,"end":123.573,"text":"那我這邊也要特別先問一下國防會主委這邊因為我們在講發展AI當中的時候可是好像沒有看到一個從政府的一個角度對於整個國家算力提升的部分有一個很具體的一個做法這個部分有沒有一些具體的後續要去做的部分那個主委這邊可以先講一下報委員這個分工上能不能請國科會來他主導我請他是不是先做說明我再補充"},{"start":124.82,"end":139.168,"text":"讓國科會做說明是不是這個部分我本來是要講說整個AI相關的部分因為算力是整個AI裡面很重要的一環那整個AI這個部分的時候如果說你要讓國科會這邊先講的時候也沒問題我想說讓國科會這邊先來回應一下"},{"start":143.837,"end":162.227,"text":"那個跟委員報告目前整個國網的算力大概是36的Peta Flow的PF那相較於這個韓國跟日本比起來的確是差很多現在韓國跟日本都有四五百以上那麼所以呢我們未來如果要以"},{"start":162.907,"end":191.703,"text":"AI去發展百工百業然後讓台灣成為一個AI的大國的話的確是我們在算力事要大幅...確實不夠嘛 確實不夠因為其實本席從上一屆當中的時候對於整個國家算力的部分就非常的關注我們國網中心 坦白說我舉個簡單的例子我們國網中心支援了半導體研究中心半導體研究中心它支援了很多高校裡面大家的一個研究的一個計畫一堆學生在抱怨 裡面根本都跑不動"},{"start":193.024,"end":212.638,"text":"就是排程跑不動那時間都跑不動然後光是一個學術單位都沒辦法支援的時候你要怎麼樣去帶動產業這個部分我其實是很懷疑的我後來去看了一下調了一下我們所有的預算就看到我們跟整個算力提供有關的大概只有在整個國研院下面"},{"start":213.479,"end":233.092,"text":"有一個高效能計算技術研發建置與維運今年113的預算總共只有6.6億,非常的少總共只有6.2億,抱歉只有6.2億,其實非常的少這裡面還包括維運的部分建置的部分又再砍一半所以我覺得以這樣的部分要用"},{"start":234.032,"end":257.041,"text":"國家的力量來支援算力我就本席是非常擔心的可是我覺得因為算力其實當我們現在整個在做尤其像今天在做AI的一個主題當中我們還希望讓整個產業從數位轉型走到AI轉型的時候那政府就必須要更有一些算力掌控在手上作為我們一些政策的工具我這樣講應該是對的嘛 對不對"},{"start":259.262,"end":283.268,"text":"所以目前看起來若只靠國網中現在國網中本來就是在支援學術研究的一個機制對產業來說其實是遠遠的不夠所以我在這邊請教一下郭部長因為我在看你在針對之前那個業務報告的時候你有特別提到就是在整個推動產業AI應用的部分你提到說本部爭取國際大廠免費提供"},{"start":283.928,"end":300.405,"text":"AI超級電腦部分算力資源提到算力資源那麼要加速建構台灣專屬生成式AI核心技術這個部分所以就是說以經濟部的角度來看的時候經濟部的算力也是要依靠企業這邊來支持是這樣子嗎經濟部的算力有經濟部的這個預算吧"},{"start":306.774,"end":335.253,"text":"經濟部有哪些具體的預算在提升算力可以具體說明我剛才講的那個是超級電腦那個是國外的廠商來輔助的然後應該也有這個其他的這個費用會支持他那這個部分部長你這部分你再補給我因為我想你剛才對這部分可能不那麼了解因為經濟部這邊對於算力提升的部分其實很有限而且並沒有自己具體的一個計畫針對目前台灣的一些重要的一些超級電腦的一個算力我們來看一下圖"},{"start":337.955,"end":361.693,"text":"這個是目前就台灣幾個比較重要的一個超級電腦的一個部分目前排第一個是台北萬是輝達提供的那提供部分這當然就是經濟部這邊有大Aplus計畫當中有支持60億左右的一個預算所以我在想說部長這邊提到說要用企業的資源我以為你要用的是這個部分"},{"start":362.473,"end":385.869,"text":"那這個部分本席也接受因為經濟部有補助經費那麼要從台北灣這邊去share資源給政府來使用給企業使用我都覺得可以沒有不行所以你剛剛提到說我們經濟部有另外的一個算力的一個研究中心算力中心的一個計畫你再提供給我因為我目前看預算書是沒有看到的那我要講的狀態是目前台灣的這幾個重要的超級電腦當中排名第二個是"},{"start":392.894,"end":419.413,"text":"氣象署的超級電腦第三個就是台三二號這個部分排名目前是排名106全世界排名106他剛成立的時候排名第20排名第20本來是很好的一個狀態現在完全往後退了那我們接下來再看到就是接下來的部分呢台灣這邊排名比較前面的這些超級電腦的部分就是兩個是"},{"start":421.856,"end":436.009,"text":"兩個是氣象署的兩個是國網中心的兩個氣象署兩個國網中心然後一個是額述室另外一個是輝達大概就是這樣子那以這個部分來看的時候呢我覺得台灣的算力其實是明顯的不足我剛剛舉這個例子"},{"start":437.15,"end":458.38,"text":"就從前年的時候我在看在質詢就是我們國防中心預算的時候我就覺得整個這部分是不夠的可是雖然今年的預算有增加十幾%可是金額還是非常的小對於台灣要去成就這樣的一個算力中心我覺得是非常的不夠那所以這部分我希望說就國發會主委這一邊你能夠"},{"start":459.5,"end":474.27,"text":"跟橫向聯繫跟我們經濟部跟我們國科會這邊一起來提升看怎麼樣子來讓台灣的算力是夠的因為算力不夠的時候AI要去發展其實是緣木求魚我覺得這部分在這邊特別提這個部分"},{"start":475.531,"end":504.13,"text":"謝謝委員我順便補充一下我們現在國科會在沙倫這邊規劃一個超級電腦中心會超過100的Peta Flow那另外在金創計畫以後再往上加那應該會額外增加100多的Peta Flow所以我們在金創計畫當中的時候要成立就是新的我們的算力中心是這樣子嘛 對不對在金創計畫接下來10年過程當中我們要建立兩個我們的算力中心 對不對國科會主委"},{"start":505.071,"end":507.794,"text":"這個部分我們就拭目以待接下來的部分我覺得我還是要特別提到電力因為事實上算力器就是電力"},{"start":525.069,"end":539.975,"text":"那我這邊要特別問一下郭部長因為坦白說你在就職之前的時候來拜訪的時候你就特別提到了說我們也建築媒體就是說你就是電力提供充足是最重要的一個關鍵從企業界來一定需要有電力嘛"},{"start":540.835,"end":549.423,"text":"那當時你也提到河山研議其實是選項之一因為到時候要如果不夠的時候河山研議可是因為你吃了一頓飯之後我發現變了那這個部分我要講一個點就是說說實話你從企業界來接這個位置大家對你有很多的期待"},{"start":557.85,"end":584.368,"text":"因為大家認為也許你可以把企業經營的概念跟務實的態度引進政府的部門所以我們希望你能夠堅持對的事情那我這邊要特別講其實整個河南的狀態其實整個世界也在改變你上次你有回答我說你們也在關注很多新科技的一個部分那至少目前為止在發展整個高科技產業當中包括微軟包括Amazon"},{"start":584.988,"end":599.925,"text":"包括openAI他們都已經很具體要自己去投入核電站那這個部分就是因為他們覺得電力供應非常非常的重要那你從高科技來我希望你對於電力的供應能夠更務實那你"},{"start":600.606,"end":616.722,"text":"去吃了飯之後你跟我們講說現在電力是夠的未來也都會夠即使碰到了AI的一個爆炸期之後還會夠那我希望你到時候到本辦公室做更細部的一個說明那我這邊也要給你一個鼓勵因為你去吃了飯之後這個政策改變的時候很多"},{"start":617.813,"end":643.173,"text":"竹科的朋友開始擔心你會做不久說實話因為他們覺得你會不適應可是問題是大家又希望你能夠帶來一些改變針對這個部分你可以簡單做一個回應報告委員我想這個河山的問題這個是有很多假設性跟前提我可能說話不夠精準不過我想這部分這個報告的部分我會更精準來跟委員報告"},{"start":643.914,"end":663.796,"text":"那麼這個新的核能,剛才您所知道的這三家公司,它是第四代的核能那麼我們對新的核能科技,我們會持續的觀察,持續的注意那如果它能夠得到我們國人大家的同意,我想我們會有一些考慮"},{"start":665.437,"end":689.285,"text":"所以說針對第四代合理反而是可以考慮的一個方向那今天我再補一個CNBC美國一個很重要的財經媒體他今天也特別報導了台灣面臨缺電的一個問題當我們整個全國都在熱情地表達支持半導體產業表達支持AI的部分可是我們也不能夠忽略這兩個確實都是吃電的一個"},{"start":690.666,"end":704.842,"text":"特別的一個產業所以連美國的財經媒體都擔心台灣電力不夠的時候我希望部長這邊的時候也能夠加快的去做一些調整然後到時候給本辦公室一個很詳細的一個報告好不好好的謝謝 以上好 謝謝"}]}}}}