{"id":153841,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153841","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819376941c03597563798b2dfa55713766cdd6f040307a1001ab67a135d127549fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:03:23 - 11:13:45","影片長度":"00:10:22","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（五）委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（六）委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【第（四）至（六）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:03:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:13:45+08:00","duration":622,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":636,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時3分）謝謝主席，請黃次長跟秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩次長跟秘書長。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長、次長，早安。首先我就這次修法第二百四十五條的司法院版跟行政院版的差異來就教兩位，我看到行政院版的第二百四十五條多增訂了第三項跟第四項，第三項規定「前項限制或禁止事由應記明於筆錄。」，第四項規定「檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察依第二項但書禁止辯護人在場，致被告或犯罪嫌疑人無其他辯護人在場陪同，應再行告知第九十五條第一項第二款、第三款之事項。」，司法院版本並沒有這第三項跟第四項的規定。我先請教次長，為什麼要增訂第三項跟第四項？"],["黃次長謀信：增訂第三項要記明於筆錄，這個事實上是落實我們現行應行注意事項跟實務上的規定，如果有限制或禁止事由，我們本來就要求檢察官要記明於筆錄。另外一個目的就是記明於筆錄之後，讓被告、辯護人可以救濟，因為之後會連帶的救濟，因為只有記明筆錄才可以為救濟的事由……"],["林委員思銘：是，你有救濟規定我知道。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["林委員思銘：那司法院版為什麼沒有？秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，現在是會銜啦，司法院提出甲案之後會銜行政院，行政院有再徵詢，所以我們也都有參與，現在司法院也是共同認為，後來集思廣益，在會銜的時候司法院也都有提出來凝聚共識，所以現在這個乙案是兩院的共識了啦。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以現在司法院也同意依照行政院的版本？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["林委員思銘：對於這個版本，我提出一下我們實務上運作的一個困難！秘書長，增訂這個部分是針對但書的規定，也就是說，律師有筆記及陳述意見的權利，把它入法，然後但書規定「但有事實足認其有妨害國家機密或有湮滅、偽造、變造證據或勾串共犯或證人或妨害他人名譽之虞，或其行為不當足以影響偵查秩序者，得限制或禁止之。」，這個限制或禁止事由依增訂第三項要記明於筆錄，第四項則規定要告知他有第九十五條的規定，讓他可以再請辯護人，也就是告知他第九十五條第二款、第三款的規定，第三款就是他可以選任辯護人嘛。但是現在就會有一個問題出現，在實務上，如果現在是在偵查程序中，被告請了律師來，檢察官如何判定會有但書的情形發生？在實務上，你如何判斷？正在偵訊，律師就坐在下面，他可能連一句話都還沒講耶！"],["黃次長謀信：當然他要符合剛剛委員提的第二百四十五條第二項但書的限制或禁止規定，前提是他有一些事實的存在啊，檢察官認為這個妨害他……"],["林委員思銘：我知道，所以我說你如何第一時間判斷這個辯護人會有這些但書的事由存在，然後去限制或禁止他來做辯護？要求被告再選任另外一位。"],["黃次長謀信：當然前提是檢察官要先做禁止的動作嘛！"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["黃次長謀信：禁止被告在場……"],["林委員思銘：禁止辯護人在場啦！"],["黃次長謀信：對，禁止辯護人在場。"],["林委員思銘：我的問題就是說，對於這個但書的事由，檢察官在第一時間能判斷嗎？依照我們過去在實務運作上的經驗，今天被告請了一個律師坐在後面要來做辯護，但實際上他可能一句話都還沒有講喔，因為你只是在偵訊、問被告嘛，然後你就可以馬上瞭解到這個律師他會偽造、變造證據，他會有妨害國家機密，或者他會勾串共犯或證人，你從什麼事由來判斷？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，當然個案上個案去判斷啦，沒有錯，誠如委員所講的，也許是偵查庭進行一段程序之後，會因律師在個案偵查庭的表現來做判斷，但有可能檢察官事先他就掌握有互相串供、滅證的情況，有可能。"],["林委員思銘：所以這可能不是第一次被辯護，可能在經過歷次的偵查庭的詢問之後，應該是之後才會發生這種情況嘛，如果這樣看，這才是法條的設計啊。"],["黃次長謀信：個案可能要事實上來認定。"],["林委員思銘：所以一開始不可能嘛，我剛剛就點出來了，在實務上要瞭解到律師會有什麼妨害國家機密或會有湮滅、偽造、變造證據或勾串共犯或證人這樣的一個情況，或者影響偵查秩序，所以你要去禁止或限制之，這個要有很具體的事由啊！"],["黃次長謀信：對，個案上有可能是在第一次開庭前檢察官已經掌握相互的律師跟被告之間有些勾串的事實存在了，已經掌握了，所以檢察官在這個狀況下運用這條但書規定去限制或禁止他在場。"],["林委員思銘：所以你們才會做相關的立法，是這個意思？但是現在我們的問題又出現了喔，這個時候依照規定還要告知他有第九十五條的規定，比如說你現在限制或禁止這位律師到場來做辯護，你馬上要告知他依照第九十五條第二項的規定，他可以再選任辯護人，所以在實務上這個操作會出現很大的問題，就是你告訴他之後，你是不是要等他再選一位辯護人進來？"],["黃次長謀信：我們訴訟法本來就有規定，將權利告知完之後，會附帶的帶出我們有一些等候辯護人的時間的規範。"],["林委員思銘：對，所以又會等候他？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["林委員思銘：如果要等候這個律師，又要等候下一個律師進來，檢察官能判斷新聘的、新找來的那位律師會不會也有但書的事由？你如何判斷？"],["黃次長謀信：對，的確這個要事實上就個案去判斷。"],["林委員思銘：所以為什麼我剛才會講說司法院的版本沒有增訂這二項，是不是司法院有這方面的考量，認為如何去瞭解這個律師真的會有但書的這幾種情況存在，檢察官真的在偵查案件時馬上就可以瞭解嗎？所以其實我是說，現階段對辯護人禁止辯護的情況，通常在實務上，檢察官對於這個律師如果有蒐集到相關證據，即便沒有這些條文，他還是可以禁止他辯護耶，是不是這樣？就是說，現階段沒有這條法律的設計，如果檢察官在偵查案件中發現律師有但書的這幾款事由，是不是也可以立即就限制他……"],["黃次長謀信：現行法上本來就是可以啊！"],["林委員思銘：現行法就可以了嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對，只是現行法沒有賦予救濟的途徑，被憲判字第7號宣告違憲啦，現行法的確是有這個機制。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以嘛，你為了要去救濟律師被限制或禁止後有這個權利，但是這跟要不要增加這一條法條的設計，這個就值得思考，也就是說，被限制或禁止後的救濟規定可以另外再去立一個救濟的規定嘛，但是你有沒有必要在這個法條裡面弄個第三項、第四項這樣的規定？有沒有必要？因為現在現行法制就有了嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛剛講了，有關第三項的部分，我們是把現行的作法明文化了，把記明於筆錄明文化。至於第四項的部分，其實是讓被告的辯護權更加的、再度獲得確保，當辯護人已被禁止的時候，檢察官必須要再權利告知有關於緘默權、有關於選任辯護權的相關規定，讓被告可以再做一次的選任，這是對被告再度且更確認的保障。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我當然瞭解你們的立場啦，只是我覺得這樣的法條設計就會讓我們好像陷入一個漩渦裡面，明明現在的規定就有了，已經夠用了，但是我們又去修法加入這個第三項及第四項，其實律師如果有這種情況，原本的規定就已經夠限制了嘛，就可以限制、禁止他做辯護了嘛，所以我的疑惑是說司法院版既然沒有，我會贊同司法院版喔，我覺得司法院是不是在當時有什麼考量，秘書長，你再講清楚，當時你們的版本沒有這個部分，你們是有什麼樣的考量？"],["吳秘書長三龍：後來在會銜的時候，認為行政院提出來的是更詳細啦，然後對整個人權更有保障。"],["林委員思銘：是啦，我想當然相關的規定，我發覺我們法務部有時候遇到問題，就是會提出像剛才講的要修專法或怎樣子，那種感覺有點疊床架屋啦，明明現行法制就有了嘛，如果你要落實律師的筆記權，已經講得很清楚了嘛，但是你要限制他的辯護權，依照現行的規定，我發覺很多律師都會被檢察官說涉及利益衝突或者有但書的幾種情況，就被限制辯護權了，讓他知難而退啊，我們現在又再去把這個條文修進來，讓人家感覺這是治絲益棼啦，感覺是這樣子，所以我想到時候這個條文在逐條討論的時候，我們可以好好考慮一下到底要不要修這一條。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（林委員思銘代）：現在請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-32","speakers":["吳宗憲","沈伯洋","鍾佳濱","羅智強","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","洪孟楷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四\n十五條之一條文修正草案」案；(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案；\n(三)委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案；(四)委員吳宗憲等\n20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案；(五)委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部\n分條文草案」案；(六)委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之\n一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136101_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"153841","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153841","tool":"pyannote","id":"153841-pyannote"},"job_id":"rz16W0LvywdVUFw0","queued_at":"2024-06-12 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\"律\", \"start\": 528.331, \"end\": 528.511, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 528.511, \"end\": 528.791, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 528.791, \"end\": 528.931, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 528.931, \"end\": 529.271, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 529.271, \"end\": 529.672, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 529.672, \"end\": 530.552, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 530.552, \"end\": 530.712, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 530.712, \"end\": 530.993, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 530.993, \"end\": 531.133, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 531.133, \"end\": 531.853, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 531.853, \"end\": 531.973, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 531.973, \"end\": 532.053, \"score\": 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00:01:07,553\n就是有第三項跟第四項第三項指前項限制或禁止事由應記名與筆錄第四項檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察或司法警察依第二項但書禁止辯護人在場致被告或犯罪嫌疑人無其他辯護人在場陪同應再行告知第九十五條第一項、第二款、第三款的事項\n\n4\n00:01:08,553 --> 00:01:23,366\n三十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第\n\n5\n00:01:23,886 --> 00:01:48,954\n刑事訴訟法第三項叫濟民筆錄這個事實上是落實我們現行的我們疫情注意事項是實務上規定如果有限制禁止我們本來就要求檢察官要濟民筆錄另外一個目的就是濟民筆錄之後讓被告或讓辯護人他可以救濟因為說連帶的救濟是因為只有濟民筆錄才可以你有救濟規定我知道那司法院版為什麼沒有請司法院委員向委員說明是現在\n\n6\n00:01:49,994 --> 00:02:04,738\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n7\n00:02:05,219 --> 00:02:32,841\n共同認為說就後來及時廣義在那個過程齁在會選的時候司法院也都有提出各來來臨近共識啊所以現在現在這個議案是兩兩院的共識了是所以現在司法院也同意就是依照我們啊行政院的版是是是那我想這個版齁我提出一下我們事務上的一個運作的一個困難喔委員長因為當然這部分你是說因為啊\n\n8\n00:02:34,667 --> 00:02:49,472\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第\n\n9\n00:02:50,772 --> 00:03:15,777\n人名譽之餘或其行為不當足以影響偵查秩序者的限制或禁止之。」這個限制或禁止是由第三項講要記名於筆錄。第四項講說又要去依照九十五條的規定。那你可以這個可能要可以讓他又可以再請辯護人並告訴他第二第三款的事項。第三款就是說他可以選任辯護人。\n\n10\n00:03:17,617 --> 00:03:29,503\n但是現在就是會有一個問題出現在實務上如果現在在偵查程序中檢察官那個被告請了律師來你如何判定說這個檢察官會有但書的情形發生在實務上你會判斷正在偵訊那檢察官就坐在下面啊他可能連一句話都還沒講欸\n\n11\n00:03:42,908 --> 00:03:59,960\n當然他要符合剛剛委員提的245條第二項但書的限制或禁止規定那甲官前提是他有一個事實的存在啊那甲官認為這個妨礙他所以我知道所以我說你如何第一時間判斷說這個辯護人他會有這些但書的事由存在然後去限制或禁止他來做辯護\n\n12\n00:04:01,425 --> 00:04:22,613\n條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十\n\n13\n00:04:25,236 --> 00:04:43,534\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n14\n00:04:44,375 --> 00:05:05,569\n當然個案上、個案去判斷,當然沒有錯,所以委員講的,也許偵查庭進行一段程序之後,因為歷史在個案偵查庭的表現而做判斷,但有可能檢察官事先他就掌握他有互相串供證、滅證的情況。所以這可能是不是第一次辯護,就是可能在經過歷次的偵查庭的詢問之後,應該是之後才會發生這種情況嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:08,666 --> 00:05:23,617\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n16\n00:05:30,682 --> 00:05:34,525\n這個要很具體的事由啊。所以你才會做這相關的一個這個立法是這個意思但是我們現在又問題又出現喔\n\n17\n00:05:53,675 --> 00:06:06,796\n這時候你要依照95條的規定你又要去告訴他說比如說你現在限制或禁止這一位律師到場來做辯護那你馬上又要告訴他依照95條第二項告訴他你可以再選任辯護人\n\n18\n00:06:09,229 --> 00:06:19,055\n二）刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、\n\n19\n00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:52,563\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第\n\n20\n00:07:02,785 --> 00:07:14,533\n所以其實我是說現階段其實對我們辯護人禁止辯護的檢察官通常在實務上他認為這個律師如果他收集到相容證據即便沒有這些條文他還是可以禁止他辯護是不是這樣\n\n21\n00:07:18,291 --> 00:07:36,944\n就是一現階段沒有這條法律的設計如果檢察官在偵查案件中發現律師有但書的這幾款事由是不是也可以立即就限制他?限制法上本來就可以限制法就可以了嗎?對,只是限制法他沒有賦予救濟的途徑被憲判幾號宣告違憲了限制法的確就有這個機制\n\n22\n00:07:38,485 --> 00:08:06,055\n所以嘛你為了要去救濟說你這個被限制或禁止於是有這個權利那但是跟要不要加這一條法條的一個設計這個就值得就是說你被限制或禁止你的救濟規定你可以另外再去立一個救濟的規定但是你有沒有必要去在這個法條裡面弄個第三項第四項這樣的一個規定有沒有必要因為你現在現行法制就有了嘛\n\n23\n00:08:07,648 --> 00:08:30,998\n公文報告,我剛才提到第三項部分我們是把現行的做法把它明文化了,把記錄證明文化,那第四項部分其實是讓被告的辯護權更加的再度獲得確保當辯護人被禁止的時候,甲官必須要在權力告知有關於緘默權有關於選用辯護權相關規定,讓被告可以再做一次的這個選任這是對被告再度更確認的保障\n\n24\n00:08:31,658 --> 00:08:53,194\n我當然了解你們的立場只是我覺得說這樣的法條的一個設計就會讓我們就又好像陷入一個漩渦裡面明明現在的規定就有了已經夠用了但是我們又去規定就去修法又把它加入這個第三項第四項原本就律師如果有這種情況就已經夠限制了就可以限制禁止他做辯護了\n\n25\n00:08:54,747 --> 00:09:20,026\n所以我的疑惑就是司法院版竟然沒有我會贊同司法院版我覺得司法院是不是應該當時那民主黨你再講清楚當時你們沒有這個版本沒有你們是有做什麼樣的考量是後來在會選的時候認為說行政院提出來是又更詳細啦又更詳細然後對整個人權的那個保障會更更有保障\n\n26\n00:09:21,847 --> 00:09:37,973\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n27\n00:09:50,737 --> 00:10:10,710\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第\n\n28\n00:10:11,610 --> 00:10:22,420\n四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8493\t13433\t三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n19847\t26331\t兩百四十五條的差異來救教兩位。就是我看到兩百四十五條的我們的行政院版\n41081\t67553\t就是有第三項跟第四項第三項指前項限制或禁止事由應記名與筆錄第四項檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察或司法警察依第二項但書禁止辯護人在場致被告或犯罪嫌疑人無其他辯護人在場陪同應再行告知第九十五條第一項、第二款、第三款的事項\n68553\t83366\t三十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第\n83886\t108954\t刑事訴訟法第三項叫濟民筆錄這個事實上是落實我們現行的我們疫情注意事項是實務上規定如果有限制禁止我們本來就要求檢察官要濟民筆錄另外一個目的就是濟民筆錄之後讓被告或讓辯護人他可以救濟因為說連帶的救濟是因為只有濟民筆錄才可以你有救濟規定我知道那司法院版為什麼沒有請司法院委員向委員說明是現在\n109994\t124738\t三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n125219\t152841\t共同認為說就後來及時廣義在那個過程齁在會選的時候司法院也都有提出各來來臨近共識啊所以現在現在這個議案是兩兩院的共識了是所以現在司法院也同意就是依照我們啊行政院的版是是是那我想這個版齁我提出一下我們事務上的一個運作的一個困難喔委員長因為當然這部分你是說因為啊\n154667\t169472\t三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第\n170772\t195777\t人名譽之餘或其行為不當足以影響偵查秩序者的限制或禁止之。」這個限制或禁止是由第三項講要記名於筆錄。第四項講說又要去依照九十五條的規定。那你可以這個可能要可以讓他又可以再請辯護人並告訴他第二第三款的事項。第三款就是說他可以選任辯護人。\n197617\t209503\t但是現在就是會有一個問題出現在實務上如果現在在偵查程序中檢察官那個被告請了律師來你如何判定說這個檢察官會有但書的情形發生在實務上你會判斷正在偵訊那檢察官就坐在下面啊他可能連一句話都還沒講欸\n222908\t239960\t當然他要符合剛剛委員提的245條第二項但書的限制或禁止規定那甲官前提是他有一個事實的存在啊那甲官認為這個妨礙他所以我知道所以我說你如何第一時間判斷說這個辯護人他會有這些但書的事由存在然後去限制或禁止他來做辯護\n241425\t262613\t條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十\n265236\t283534\t三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n284375\t305569\t當然個案上、個案去判斷,當然沒有錯,所以委員講的,也許偵查庭進行一段程序之後,因為歷史在個案偵查庭的表現而做判斷,但有可能檢察官事先他就掌握他有互相串供證、滅證的情況。所以這可能是不是第一次辯護,就是可能在經過歷次的偵查庭的詢問之後,應該是之後才會發生這種情況嗎?\n308666\t323617\t三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n330682\t334525\t這個要很具體的事由啊。所以你才會做這相關的一個這個立法是這個意思但是我們現在又問題又出現喔\n353675\t366796\t這時候你要依照95條的規定你又要去告訴他說比如說你現在限制或禁止這一位律師到場來做辯護那你馬上又要告訴他依照95條第二項告訴他你可以再選任辯護人\n369229\t379055\t二）刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、\n393240\t412563\t三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第\n422785\t434533\t所以其實我是說現階段其實對我們辯護人禁止辯護的檢察官通常在實務上他認為這個律師如果他收集到相容證據即便沒有這些條文他還是可以禁止他辯護是不是這樣\n438291\t456944\t就是一現階段沒有這條法律的設計如果檢察官在偵查案件中發現律師有但書的這幾款事由是不是也可以立即就限制他?限制法上本來就可以限制法就可以了嗎?對,只是限制法他沒有賦予救濟的途徑被憲判幾號宣告違憲了限制法的確就有這個機制\n458485\t486055\t所以嘛你為了要去救濟說你這個被限制或禁止於是有這個權利那但是跟要不要加這一條法條的一個設計這個就值得就是說你被限制或禁止你的救濟規定你可以另外再去立一個救濟的規定但是你有沒有必要去在這個法條裡面弄個第三項第四項這樣的一個規定有沒有必要因為你現在現行法制就有了嘛\n487648\t510998\t公文報告,我剛才提到第三項部分我們是把現行的做法把它明文化了,把記錄證明文化,那第四項部分其實是讓被告的辯護權更加的再度獲得確保當辯護人被禁止的時候,甲官必須要在權力告知有關於緘默權有關於選用辯護權相關規定,讓被告可以再做一次的這個選任這是對被告再度更確認的保障\n511658\t533194\t我當然了解你們的立場只是我覺得說這樣的法條的一個設計就會讓我們就又好像陷入一個漩渦裡面明明現在的規定就有了已經夠用了但是我們又去規定就去修法又把它加入這個第三項第四項原本就律師如果有這種情況就已經夠限制了就可以限制禁止他做辯護了\n534747\t560026\t所以我的疑惑就是司法院版竟然沒有我會贊同司法院版我覺得司法院是不是應該當時那民主黨你再講清楚當時你們沒有這個版本沒有你們是有做什麼樣的考量是後來在會選的時候認為說行政院提出來是又更詳細啦又更詳細然後對整個人權的那個保障會更更有保障\n561847\t577973\t三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n590737\t610710\t三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第\n611610\t622420\t四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n","txt":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n兩百四十五條的差異來救教兩位。就是我看到兩百四十五條的我們的行政院版\n就是有第三項跟第四項第三項指前項限制或禁止事由應記名與筆錄第四項檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察或司法警察依第二項但書禁止辯護人在場致被告或犯罪嫌疑人無其他辯護人在場陪同應再行告知第九十五條第一項、第二款、第三款的事項\n三十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第\n刑事訴訟法第三項叫濟民筆錄這個事實上是落實我們現行的我們疫情注意事項是實務上規定如果有限制禁止我們本來就要求檢察官要濟民筆錄另外一個目的就是濟民筆錄之後讓被告或讓辯護人他可以救濟因為說連帶的救濟是因為只有濟民筆錄才可以你有救濟規定我知道那司法院版為什麼沒有請司法院委員向委員說明是現在\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n共同認為說就後來及時廣義在那個過程齁在會選的時候司法院也都有提出各來來臨近共識啊所以現在現在這個議案是兩兩院的共識了是所以現在司法院也同意就是依照我們啊行政院的版是是是那我想這個版齁我提出一下我們事務上的一個運作的一個困難喔委員長因為當然這部分你是說因為啊\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第\n人名譽之餘或其行為不當足以影響偵查秩序者的限制或禁止之。」這個限制或禁止是由第三項講要記名於筆錄。第四項講說又要去依照九十五條的規定。那你可以這個可能要可以讓他又可以再請辯護人並告訴他第二第三款的事項。第三款就是說他可以選任辯護人。\n但是現在就是會有一個問題出現在實務上如果現在在偵查程序中檢察官那個被告請了律師來你如何判定說這個檢察官會有但書的情形發生在實務上你會判斷正在偵訊那檢察官就坐在下面啊他可能連一句話都還沒講欸\n當然他要符合剛剛委員提的245條第二項但書的限制或禁止規定那甲官前提是他有一個事實的存在啊那甲官認為這個妨礙他所以我知道所以我說你如何第一時間判斷說這個辯護人他會有這些但書的事由存在然後去限制或禁止他來做辯護\n條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n當然個案上、個案去判斷,當然沒有錯,所以委員講的,也許偵查庭進行一段程序之後,因為歷史在個案偵查庭的表現而做判斷,但有可能檢察官事先他就掌握他有互相串供證、滅證的情況。所以這可能是不是第一次辯護,就是可能在經過歷次的偵查庭的詢問之後,應該是之後才會發生這種情況嗎?\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n這個要很具體的事由啊。所以你才會做這相關的一個這個立法是這個意思但是我們現在又問題又出現喔\n這時候你要依照95條的規定你又要去告訴他說比如說你現在限制或禁止這一位律師到場來做辯護那你馬上又要告訴他依照95條第二項告訴他你可以再選任辯護人\n二）刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第\n所以其實我是說現階段其實對我們辯護人禁止辯護的檢察官通常在實務上他認為這個律師如果他收集到相容證據即便沒有這些條文他還是可以禁止他辯護是不是這樣\n就是一現階段沒有這條法律的設計如果檢察官在偵查案件中發現律師有但書的這幾款事由是不是也可以立即就限制他?限制法上本來就可以限制法就可以了嗎?對,只是限制法他沒有賦予救濟的途徑被憲判幾號宣告違憲了限制法的確就有這個機制\n所以嘛你為了要去救濟說你這個被限制或禁止於是有這個權利那但是跟要不要加這一條法條的一個設計這個就值得就是說你被限制或禁止你的救濟規定你可以另外再去立一個救濟的規定但是你有沒有必要去在這個法條裡面弄個第三項第四項這樣的一個規定有沒有必要因為你現在現行法制就有了嘛\n公文報告,我剛才提到第三項部分我們是把現行的做法把它明文化了,把記錄證明文化,那第四項部分其實是讓被告的辯護權更加的再度獲得確保當辯護人被禁止的時候,甲官必須要在權力告知有關於緘默權有關於選用辯護權相關規定,讓被告可以再做一次的這個選任這是對被告再度更確認的保障\n我當然了解你們的立場只是我覺得說這樣的法條的一個設計就會讓我們就又好像陷入一個漩渦裡面明明現在的規定就有了已經夠用了但是我們又去規定就去修法又把它加入這個第三項第四項原本就律師如果有這種情況就已經夠限制了就可以限制禁止他做辯護了\n所以我的疑惑就是司法院版竟然沒有我會贊同司法院版我覺得司法院是不是應該當時那民主黨你再講清楚當時你們沒有這個版本沒有你們是有做什麼樣的考量是後來在會選的時候認為說行政院提出來是又更詳細啦又更詳細然後對整個人權的那個保障會更更有保障\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第\n四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.493 --> 00:13.433\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、\n\n00:19.847 --> 00:26.331\n兩百四十五條的差異來救教兩位。就是我看到兩百四十五條的我們的行政院版\n\n00:41.081 --> 01:07.553\n就是有第三項跟第四項第三項指前項限制或禁止事由應記名與筆錄第四項檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察或司法警察依第二項但書禁止辯護人在場致被告或犯罪嫌疑人無其他辯護人在場陪同應再行告知第九十五條第一項、第二款、第三款的事項\n\n01:08.553 --> 01:23.366\n三十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第\n\n01:23.886 --> 01:48.954\n刑事訴訟法第三項叫濟民筆錄這個事實上是落實我們現行的我們疫情注意事項是實務上規定如果有限制禁止我們本來就要求檢察官要濟民筆錄另外一個目的就是濟民筆錄之後讓被告或讓辯護人他可以救濟因為說連帶的救濟是因為只有濟民筆錄才可以你有救濟規定我知道那司法院版為什麼沒有請司法院委員向委員說明是現在\n\n01:49.994 --> 02:04.738\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n02:05.219 --> 02:32.841\n共同認為說就後來及時廣義在那個過程齁在會選的時候司法院也都有提出各來來臨近共識啊所以現在現在這個議案是兩兩院的共識了是所以現在司法院也同意就是依照我們啊行政院的版是是是那我想這個版齁我提出一下我們事務上的一個運作的一個困難喔委員長因為當然這部分你是說因為啊\n\n02:34.667 --> 02:49.472\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第\n\n02:50.772 --> 03:15.777\n人名譽之餘或其行為不當足以影響偵查秩序者的限制或禁止之。」這個限制或禁止是由第三項講要記名於筆錄。第四項講說又要去依照九十五條的規定。那你可以這個可能要可以讓他又可以再請辯護人並告訴他第二第三款的事項。第三款就是說他可以選任辯護人。\n\n03:17.617 --> 03:29.503\n但是現在就是會有一個問題出現在實務上如果現在在偵查程序中檢察官那個被告請了律師來你如何判定說這個檢察官會有但書的情形發生在實務上你會判斷正在偵訊那檢察官就坐在下面啊他可能連一句話都還沒講欸\n\n03:42.908 --> 03:59.960\n當然他要符合剛剛委員提的245條第二項但書的限制或禁止規定那甲官前提是他有一個事實的存在啊那甲官認為這個妨礙他所以我知道所以我說你如何第一時間判斷說這個辯護人他會有這些但書的事由存在然後去限制或禁止他來做辯護\n\n04:01.425 --> 04:22.613\n條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十\n\n04:25.236 --> 04:43.534\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n04:44.375 --> 05:05.569\n當然個案上、個案去判斷,當然沒有錯,所以委員講的,也許偵查庭進行一段程序之後,因為歷史在個案偵查庭的表現而做判斷,但有可能檢察官事先他就掌握他有互相串供證、滅證的情況。所以這可能是不是第一次辯護,就是可能在經過歷次的偵查庭的詢問之後,應該是之後才會發生這種情況嗎?\n\n05:08.666 --> 05:23.617\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n05:30.682 --> 05:34.525\n這個要很具體的事由啊。所以你才會做這相關的一個這個立法是這個意思但是我們現在又問題又出現喔\n\n05:53.675 --> 06:06.796\n這時候你要依照95條的規定你又要去告訴他說比如說你現在限制或禁止這一位律師到場來做辯護那你馬上又要告訴他依照95條第二項告訴他你可以再選任辯護人\n\n06:09.229 --> 06:19.055\n二）刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、\n\n06:33.240 --> 06:52.563\n三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第\n\n07:02.785 --> 07:14.533\n所以其實我是說現階段其實對我們辯護人禁止辯護的檢察官通常在實務上他認為這個律師如果他收集到相容證據即便沒有這些條文他還是可以禁止他辯護是不是這樣\n\n07:18.291 --> 07:36.944\n就是一現階段沒有這條法律的設計如果檢察官在偵查案件中發現律師有但書的這幾款事由是不是也可以立即就限制他?限制法上本來就可以限制法就可以了嗎?對,只是限制法他沒有賦予救濟的途徑被憲判幾號宣告違憲了限制法的確就有這個機制\n\n07:38.485 --> 08:06.055\n所以嘛你為了要去救濟說你這個被限制或禁止於是有這個權利那但是跟要不要加這一條法條的一個設計這個就值得就是說你被限制或禁止你的救濟規定你可以另外再去立一個救濟的規定但是你有沒有必要去在這個法條裡面弄個第三項第四項這樣的一個規定有沒有必要因為你現在現行法制就有了嘛\n\n08:07.648 --> 08:30.998\n公文報告,我剛才提到第三項部分我們是把現行的做法把它明文化了,把記錄證明文化,那第四項部分其實是讓被告的辯護權更加的再度獲得確保當辯護人被禁止的時候,甲官必須要在權力告知有關於緘默權有關於選用辯護權相關規定,讓被告可以再做一次的這個選任這是對被告再度更確認的保障\n\n08:31.658 --> 08:53.194\n我當然了解你們的立場只是我覺得說這樣的法條的一個設計就會讓我們就又好像陷入一個漩渦裡面明明現在的規定就有了已經夠用了但是我們又去規定就去修法又把它加入這個第三項第四項原本就律師如果有這種情況就已經夠限制了就可以限制禁止他做辯護了\n\n08:54.747 --> 09:20.026\n所以我的疑惑就是司法院版竟然沒有我會贊同司法院版我覺得司法院是不是應該當時那民主黨你再講清楚當時你們沒有這個版本沒有你們是有做什麼樣的考量是後來在會選的時候認為說行政院提出來是又更詳細啦又更詳細然後對整個人權的那個保障會更更有保障\n\n09:21.847 --> 09:37.973\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n09:50.737 --> 10:10.710\n三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第\n\n10:11.610 --> 10:22.420\n四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.493,"end":13.433,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19.847,"end":26.331,"text":"兩百四十五條的差異來救教兩位。就是我看到兩百四十五條的我們的行政院版"},{"start":41.081,"end":67.553,"text":"就是有第三項跟第四項第三項指前項限制或禁止事由應記名與筆錄第四項檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察或司法警察依第二項但書禁止辯護人在場致被告或犯罪嫌疑人無其他辯護人在場陪同應再行告知第九十五條第一項、第二款、第三款的事項"},{"start":68.553,"end":83.366,"text":"三十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第"},{"start":83.886,"end":108.954,"text":"刑事訴訟法第三項叫濟民筆錄這個事實上是落實我們現行的我們疫情注意事項是實務上規定如果有限制禁止我們本來就要求檢察官要濟民筆錄另外一個目的就是濟民筆錄之後讓被告或讓辯護人他可以救濟因為說連帶的救濟是因為只有濟民筆錄才可以你有救濟規定我知道那司法院版為什麼沒有請司法院委員向委員說明是現在"},{"start":109.994,"end":124.738,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":125.219,"end":152.841,"text":"共同認為說就後來及時廣義在那個過程齁在會選的時候司法院也都有提出各來來臨近共識啊所以現在現在這個議案是兩兩院的共識了是所以現在司法院也同意就是依照我們啊行政院的版是是是那我想這個版齁我提出一下我們事務上的一個運作的一個困難喔委員長因為當然這部分你是說因為啊"},{"start":154.667,"end":169.472,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":170.772,"end":195.777,"text":"人名譽之餘或其行為不當足以影響偵查秩序者的限制或禁止之。」這個限制或禁止是由第三項講要記名於筆錄。第四項講說又要去依照九十五條的規定。那你可以這個可能要可以讓他又可以再請辯護人並告訴他第二第三款的事項。第三款就是說他可以選任辯護人。"},{"start":197.617,"end":209.503,"text":"但是現在就是會有一個問題出現在實務上如果現在在偵查程序中檢察官那個被告請了律師來你如何判定說這個檢察官會有但書的情形發生在實務上你會判斷正在偵訊那檢察官就坐在下面啊他可能連一句話都還沒講欸"},{"start":222.908,"end":239.96,"text":"當然他要符合剛剛委員提的245條第二項但書的限制或禁止規定那甲官前提是他有一個事實的存在啊那甲官認為這個妨礙他所以我知道所以我說你如何第一時間判斷說這個辯護人他會有這些但書的事由存在然後去限制或禁止他來做辯護"},{"start":241.425,"end":262.613,"text":"條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十"},{"start":265.236,"end":283.534,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":284.375,"end":305.569,"text":"當然個案上、個案去判斷,當然沒有錯,所以委員講的,也許偵查庭進行一段程序之後,因為歷史在個案偵查庭的表現而做判斷,但有可能檢察官事先他就掌握他有互相串供證、滅證的情況。所以這可能是不是第一次辯護,就是可能在經過歷次的偵查庭的詢問之後,應該是之後才會發生這種情況嗎?"},{"start":308.666,"end":323.617,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":330.682,"end":334.525,"text":"這個要很具體的事由啊。所以你才會做這相關的一個這個立法是這個意思但是我們現在又問題又出現喔"},{"start":353.675,"end":366.796,"text":"這時候你要依照95條的規定你又要去告訴他說比如說你現在限制或禁止這一位律師到場來做辯護那你馬上又要告訴他依照95條第二項告訴他你可以再選任辯護人"},{"start":369.229,"end":379.055,"text":"二）刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":393.24,"end":412.563,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":422.785,"end":434.533,"text":"所以其實我是說現階段其實對我們辯護人禁止辯護的檢察官通常在實務上他認為這個律師如果他收集到相容證據即便沒有這些條文他還是可以禁止他辯護是不是這樣"},{"start":438.291,"end":456.944,"text":"就是一現階段沒有這條法律的設計如果檢察官在偵查案件中發現律師有但書的這幾款事由是不是也可以立即就限制他?限制法上本來就可以限制法就可以了嗎?對,只是限制法他沒有賦予救濟的途徑被憲判幾號宣告違憲了限制法的確就有這個機制"},{"start":458.485,"end":486.055,"text":"所以嘛你為了要去救濟說你這個被限制或禁止於是有這個權利那但是跟要不要加這一條法條的一個設計這個就值得就是說你被限制或禁止你的救濟規定你可以另外再去立一個救濟的規定但是你有沒有必要去在這個法條裡面弄個第三項第四項這樣的一個規定有沒有必要因為你現在現行法制就有了嘛"},{"start":487.648,"end":510.998,"text":"公文報告,我剛才提到第三項部分我們是把現行的做法把它明文化了,把記錄證明文化,那第四項部分其實是讓被告的辯護權更加的再度獲得確保當辯護人被禁止的時候,甲官必須要在權力告知有關於緘默權有關於選用辯護權相關規定,讓被告可以再做一次的這個選任這是對被告再度更確認的保障"},{"start":511.658,"end":533.194,"text":"我當然了解你們的立場只是我覺得說這樣的法條的一個設計就會讓我們就又好像陷入一個漩渦裡面明明現在的規定就有了已經夠用了但是我們又去規定就去修法又把它加入這個第三項第四項原本就律師如果有這種情況就已經夠限制了就可以限制禁止他做辯護了"},{"start":534.747,"end":560.026,"text":"所以我的疑惑就是司法院版竟然沒有我會贊同司法院版我覺得司法院是不是應該當時那民主黨你再講清楚當時你們沒有這個版本沒有你們是有做什麼樣的考量是後來在會選的時候認為說行政院提出來是又更詳細啦又更詳細然後對整個人權的那個保障會更更有保障"},{"start":561.847,"end":577.973,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":590.737,"end":610.71,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":611.61,"end":622.42,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"}]}}}}