{"id":153845,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153845","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8196c1e0bce9eddfa9f182e407f268492bcdd6f040307a1001a0b94474edbfc61895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:15:25 - 11:26:24","影片長度":"00:10:59","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:15:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:26:24+08:00","duration":659,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":609,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時15分）主席謝謝，請我們主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委，您看詐騙實在是非常非常的猖獗，現在一年有這麼多詐騙的金流在移動，看我們金門的例子，我們金門詐騙多到連警察的帳戶都遭殃。我們金門縣警察局有一位張姓警員，他名下的帳戶被匯入多筆款項，警方及銀行查出來包括詐騙案被害人匯入的金額，他的帳戶就被列為警示帳戶，他當然否認涉案，說是金融卡遺失被人家盜用，不管他是參與者或者他也是被害者，就是遺失金融卡，這個表示詐騙集團已經猖獗到連金門警察的帳戶都有牽扯。當然，他現在被提出涉犯詐欺還有洗錢防制移送到地檢署，我要講的是，連警察的帳戶都被詐騙集團不管是拿去使用還是撿到金融卡，可見詐騙真的太猖獗了。我上次也問過您，您好像沒有被詐騙過，但也有接過詐騙電話……"],["彭主任委員金隆：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：只是沒有被騙到啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：我身旁好多人都被詐騙過，而且都算是受過一定教育的，很多種手法，不管是什麼ETC轉帳或者是買一個貨到付款的東西啦，我身邊好多好多人都這樣，我也接過很多詐騙電話。我有時候接到電話也會懷疑，那天有銀行打來，我也開始懷疑銀行怎麼會有資訊，他是不是詐騙集團？我還問他是不是詐騙集團？因為我們沒有辦法判斷，你知道嗎？雖然現在破案率很高，但不代表打詐成功喔！因為抓到的都是人頭戶嘛，而且都是車手啦，大家都知道，抓到都是車手，就是很下游、下游、下游，所以詐騙集團沒有消失，他們還越做越昌盛，是一個非常昌盛的產業。然後財物的損失也越來越多，今年抓了幾萬個人頭戶，明年、後年還有，而且對被害人來講是很多財物都追不回來，那你們的作為呢？","我們今天討論你們作為的時候，我看到你們的報告有講去年9月人頭戶專案金檢發現國銀有9大缺失，你看這9大缺失：頻繁開戶、公會彙整的共通性異常態樣、監控機制參數有問題、沒有辦法即時偵測到異常交易、警示的帳戶比對沒有建立、沒有即時通知聯徵中心、久未往來的客戶、調高網路轉帳的限額，還有客戶的虛擬帳號被警示，沒有連結起來做暫停交易或進行調查。這9大的缺失，你們具體做了哪些改善？有什麼具體成效嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，金管會過去真的非常努力在做，但是努力並不代表就能夠把它消滅，剛才委員指正的，我們現在有十大的作法啦，簡單跟委員講一下，比如說第一個，我們會強化臨櫃關懷，其實我們在過去……"],["陳委員玉珍：臨櫃關懷這個做很多啦！我去過銀行，被關懷過，關懷的是無微不至，這一點做得很好，下一個呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：下一個就是剛才委員講的帳戶管理，這是我們的重中之重，剛剛提到警示帳戶、第二類帳戶還有虛擬帳戶，還有未來的灰名單，以及境內、境外的管控名單，這些我們都不斷的在加強管理，帳戶管理是一個阻詐非常重要的點。","再來，針對新興的支付工具，比如說第三方支付跟電支還有信用卡，我們也開始做很多防堵，我們還進行檢查，如果未來打詐四法通過的話，我們還要在這邊來強化，當然這個沒有止境……"],["陳委員玉珍：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是我們真的非常努力在做這件事。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，金管會真的是扮演非常重要的角色，因為最後都是金流的問題，如果詐騙集團拿不到錢，至少被害者的財產、財物的損失會降低……"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是騙到用不到。"],["陳委員玉珍：很重要的，像我們今天討論的虛擬貨幣，我看你們的報告裡面說，個人幣商如果沒有做洗錢聲明，就詐騙集團會把錢轉換成虛擬貨幣，我們知道現在你們當然有嚴格要求做KYC，掌控人頭帳戶，所以詐騙集團都把錢轉給個人幣商進行金錢的轉移，現在你們說個人幣商沒有做洗錢的聲明，因此自屬違法，但是這有違反虛擬通貨辦法、VASP原則嗎？因為VASP裡頭沒有定義什麼是個人幣商。有違反公司法嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現階段的話，我剛剛講的，刑責部分要等到我們洗錢防制法……"],["陳委員玉珍：那個是刑責，我知道。"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的話，他沒有聲明去做這件事情是有罰則的。"],["陳委員玉珍：你說什麼？個人幣商啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，現在如果說……"],["陳委員玉珍：誰可以罰他？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們就有罰過。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們也可以罰他就對了，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是。"],["陳委員玉珍：個人幣商的部分是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：他有違反你們VASP的原則嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：洗防法裡面，對。"],["陳委員玉珍：洗防法是你們這邊罰的嗎？不是……"],["彭主任委員金隆：洗防法裡面規定的子法，這一塊是由我們來主政，因為虛擬資產這一塊業者的洗錢防制主政單位是金管會。"],["陳委員玉珍：他沒有變成公司組織，你們也可以就對了，是不是？也歸在金管會這邊可以處罰的，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我確認一下，因為我們看到你們列管的是大型平臺的幣商，你們可以做行政管制嘛……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，如果說他已經做了洗防登記……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你說大型平臺如果有做登記，但個人幣商不用你們許可，那也是要做登記嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在要……"],["陳委員玉珍：現在個人幣商也要做登記？"],["彭主任委員金隆：未來我們為了強化管理，如果沒有登記而執行這個業務會有刑責。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是刑責，我知道有刑責，但刑責比較慢，你知道，就等於是在中間，刑責不是你們這邊可以決定的嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：刑責是事後的刑事處分，刑責的要求比較不同所以等於是在這個部分，你看我的簡報裡頭，關於個人幣商，你們沒有許可，你們做的是刑責，做刑責的話，最後你們就沒有辦法管，都變成司法去管、法務部去管了，對不對？進入司法就很冗長，最後很多受害者的金錢事實上也都是拿不到的，您瞭解我在說什麼嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我理解委員關切的點……"],["陳委員玉珍：你可以管的是大型平臺幣商，對不對？這個你們列管，你們可以在行政上先做一些相關的處分，這是管理得到的，可以比較及時管到，因為他……"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在已經做……"],["陳委員玉珍：向你們登記嘛……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：那你剛才說個人幣商也要向你們登記是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，向你們登記，但你們沒有辦法用行政管制是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的話，我們沒辦法用刑責的方式……"],["陳委員玉珍：這部分你們沒辦法用刑責，因為刑責也不歸你們這邊……"],["彭主任委員金隆：還要立法、還要立法……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以這部分你們是不是應該也要讓個人幣商納管？不然這會變成一個漏洞，詐騙集團就把錢轉到個人幣商的手上，你就切不掉，最後當然就用刑責，用刑責的話，被害者去報警，報警後就進入司法，司法程序這麼冗長，等到查到的時候，那個錢早就不知道流到何方了，你瞭解嗎？這會變成法律上的漏洞。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是。我們對帳流跟幣流也有一些管控措施，剛才我們提到未來打詐四法通過的話，這一塊我們可以做一些金流的攔截……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以這個如果通過，裡頭也有包括個人幣商的部分，你們也會做……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，也是納管。"],["陳委員玉珍：也是納管，那也會有行政的處罰嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：行政處罰是有，還有刑責。"],["陳委員玉珍：個人的部分喔？"],["彭主任委員金隆：都有。"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是，公司跟個人的部分……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：不然的話，我剛剛說到的那個情況就很嚴重。","還有一點，比如說超商現在都有貨到付款嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：關於貨到付款，有時候那個貨也不知道是誰的，人家就莫名其妙去領了，領了就付款，付款以後，錢剛付的時候應該還在超商的手上，就是超商的帳戶，還不會一下就流到出貨人，也就是詐騙集團手上，也有詐騙集團會用一些貨到付款來詐騙。針對這個金流，法務部知不知道，相關法律可以規定，比如說他們用超商平臺在詐騙，有人會用超商平臺詐騙，詐騙了之後，民眾去超商付款可能刷這個、付那個，以後這個金流時間是不是也可以控管住，至少讓他發現後，可以阻住？比如說，我拿了一個東西回來發現這個東西不是我訂的、被詐騙了，然後趕快回去跟超商講，可能在24小時還是多久，可以讓金流從這裡阻住，因為超商是很方便的地方，有時候詐騙集團就用這個漏洞，用它的便利性讓很多人被詐騙，像是ETC要付款就去超商刷，這個金流在這裡是不是可以有一個什麼機制把它堵住？金管會，您聽懂我的意思嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：聽懂、聽懂。主要是我們剛剛在報告時講，打詐四法裡面有一個能夠更及時阻斷金流的作法，我們現在希望能夠有一個更有效的法源，當然整個……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們會支持你的打詐四法，我的意思是說，從金流的務實面來講，剛才有說，比如3,000塊轉帳要24小時，因為超商有很多人在那邊刷卡或者是付錢，有時候付完以後才發現自己被詐騙，是不是在這個部分，在各種平臺，畢竟超商也是一個平臺，在這個金流要做到相關的管控，這樣應該可以防止錢被流到詐騙集團，因為我發現好多人跟我陳情，他們都是去超商做很多這種事情，這部分你們是不是也來看一下，如果沒有相關規定或是只要行政手段來做的話，法務部或是金管會這邊是不是來做一個規定，我想這也可以有效阻絕很多人被騙，也就是金流流到詐騙集團手上。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，剛剛提到的這些都在我們未來規定的範圍之內。"],["陳委員玉珍：有喔！好，麻煩你們，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。","接著請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcid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\"流\", \"start\": 649.717, \"end\": 649.897, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 649.897, \"end\": 650.838, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"詐\"}, {\"word\": \"騙\"}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 650.838, \"end\": 651.078, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 651.078, \"end\": 651.258, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 651.258, \"end\": 651.278, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 651.859, \"end\": 652.06, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 652.06, \"end\": 652.2, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 652.2, \"end\": 652.602, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 652.602, \"end\": 653.023, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 653.023, \"end\": 653.164, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 653.164, \"end\": 653.385, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 653.385, \"end\": 654.067, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 654.067, \"end\": 654.228, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 654.228, \"end\": 655.111, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 655.111, \"end\": 655.613, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 655.613, \"end\": 655.753, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 655.753, \"end\": 655.814, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"圍\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 655.814, \"end\": 655.834, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"內\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,287 --> 00:00:09,430\n主席謝謝請這個我們主委有請彭主委主委你好主委你看到這個詐騙這個實在是非常非常的猖獗現在一年有這麼多的這個詐騙的金流在移動我們看我們金門的例子我們金門詐騙多到連警察的帳戶都遭殃\n\n2\n00:00:31,568 --> 00:00:49,914\n我們金門縣警察局有一位張姓警員他的名下的帳戶被賄賂多筆款項警方及銀行查出來包括詐騙案被害人賄賂的金額那他的帳戶就列為警示帳戶那他當然否認涉案他說是金融卡遺失被人家盜用\n\n3\n00:00:51,494 --> 00:01:17,715\n但是不管他是參與或是他也是被害者就是遺失金融卡這個表示這個詐騙集團已經猖獗到金門連警察的帳戶都有牽扯到當然他現在被提出這個涉犯詐欺還有洗錢防制以送到地檢署我要講的是連警察的帳戶都被詐騙集團不管是拿去使用還是說撿到這個金融卡那雖然\n\n4\n00:01:18,922 --> 00:01:44,200\n可見詐騙真的太猖獗了我上次也問過您嘛您好像沒有被詐騙過也有接過詐騙電話只是沒有被騙到啦那我身邊好多人都被詐騙過而且都是算是受過一定教育的不是說那個很多種手法不管是什麼什麼ETC什麼轉帳啊或者是什麼買一個什麼貨到付款啦我身邊好多好多人都詐騙我也接過很多詐騙電話\n\n5\n00:01:45,481 --> 00:02:04,314\n那我有時候接到電話就懷疑說那天有銀行打來我也開始懷疑說這個銀行怎麼會有資訊他是不是詐騙集團我還問他是不是詐騙集團因為這種沒有辦法判斷你知道嗎那雖然現在破案率很高啊不代表不代表這個打詐成功喔因為抓到的都是這個人頭戶嘛而且都是那個\n\n6\n00:02:05,134 --> 00:02:06,075\n金融監督管理委員會\n\n7\n00:02:23,470 --> 00:02:39,546\n而且破案以外對非法人的講是很多財務都追不回來那你們的作為呢我們今天討論你們的作為的時候我看到你們的報告有講說去年9月這個人頭戶專案經驗有9大缺失你看這9大缺失\n\n8\n00:02:40,287 --> 00:02:48,051\n平房開戶公會會診的異常太陽監控參數有問題沒有辦法即時偵測到異常交易警示的賬戶比對沒有建立沒有即時通知聯徵中心九位往來的客戶調高網路轉帳線客戶的虛擬帳號被警示沒有\n\n9\n00:03:09,323 --> 00:03:33,063\n連結起來做暫停交易進行調查那這個九大的缺失你們的具體的做了哪些改善有什麼具體成效嗎謝謝委員這個是我們金管會在過去我們真的非常努力在做但是努力並不代表就能夠把它消滅但是我們剛才委員指正了我們現在有十大的做法簡單跟委員講一下\n\n10\n00:03:33,743 --> 00:04:03,123\n比如第一個我們會強化那個臨櫃關懷其實我們在過去臨櫃關懷這個做很多啦我去過銀行有這邊關懷過關懷這是無微不至這一點是做得很好下一點呢對下一個就我們剛才委員講的就是帳戶的管理這是我們的重中之重剛剛提到就剛才那個警示帳戶第二類帳戶還有虛擬帳戶還有就是未來我們的揮名單還有境內境外的管控名單這些我們都不斷地在加強這樣的管理所以我們帳戶管理是很重要我們主柵一個非常重要的點\n\n11\n00:04:05,184 --> 00:04:18,676\n針對新興的支付工具、第三方支付跟電資還有信用卡的部分我們也開始做很多的防堵我們還進行檢查我們還有做比如說未來打詐事法裡面如果通過的話我們還要這邊來強化所以當然這個沒有止境\n\n12\n00:04:24,982 --> 00:04:35,734\n金管會真的是非常非常重要的角色因為最後都是金流的問題嘛如果詐騙者拿不到錢的話那他可能這個手段的話或是各方面的話就是至少被害者的財產財務的損失\n\n13\n00:04:38,657 --> 00:04:51,687\n會降低那很重要像我們今天討論這個虛擬貨幣的部分對不對你們說你們這個我看你們這個報告裡面說那個個人幣商如果沒有做洗錢生命那個沒有做這個就詐騙集團他會把這個錢轉換成這個虛擬貨幣這個我們知道現在都慢慢的你們當然有嚴格要求做這個KYC掌控這個人頭賬戶那現在詐騙集團都把錢轉給個人幣商那再進行這個金錢的轉移那現在\n\n14\n00:05:05,678 --> 00:05:32,266\n你們說個人避傷沒有做洗錢聲明的這個職業聲明因此自屬違法但是這個有違反這個就是虛擬通貨辦法嗎?因為你這個VASP裡頭沒有定義什麼是個人避傷嗎?有違反公司法嗎?現在的話就是我們現階段剛剛講那個刑責部分要等到那個是刑責我知道現在的話我們是他沒有聲明去做這件事情我們現在是有罰則的\n\n15\n00:05:33,851 --> 00:05:34,795\n你說什麼?個人避傷啊?誰可以罰他?\n\n16\n00:05:40,816 --> 00:06:06,314\n我們就罰過對你們也可以罰他就對了是不是個人避傷的部分是不是對他有違反你們的VASP的原則嗎洗房辦法裡面對洗房法是你們這邊罰的嗎洗房法裡面規定的執法這一塊是由我們來主政因為洗錢這個虛擬資產這一塊業者的洗錢防制的主政單位是他沒有變成公司組織你們有可以就對了是不是也歸在今晚會這邊可以處罰是嗎\n\n17\n00:06:07,014 --> 00:06:32,984\n是的我確認一下因為這個大型的這個我們看到大型的這個平台的這個弊商你們是列管的嘛你們可以做行政管制嘛對如果說他已經做我們的洗房登記的那些業者如果你說大型的那個平台的話如果有做登記那個人弊商不用你們許可嗎那要做登記嗎也是要嗎現在現在要現在個人弊商也要做登記未來我們為了強化管理如果沒有登記的而執行這個業務會有刑者\n\n18\n00:06:35,532 --> 00:06:59,856\n但是行則我知道行則但行則比較慢你知道嗎就等於是中間行則等於是行則不是你們這邊可以決定的嘛對不對行則要事後的這個比較形式處分嘛行則的要求比較所以等於是那你在這個部分你看個人你看我這個簡報裡頭個人避傷你們沒有許可你們做的是行則那做行則的話最後你們沒有辦法管啦都變成是司法去管啦法務部去管嘛\n\n19\n00:07:00,536 --> 00:07:29,642\n對不對那最後進入司法很冗長啦然後最後的話很多受害者的這個金錢事實上也都是拿不到的啊您了解我在說什麼嗎我理解那個關切的就是說你可以管的是大型平台避傷嘛對不對這個你們略管你們可以在行政上先做一些相關的處分嘛那這個是管理得到的比較可以及時比較能及時管到嘛因為它是有你們登記嘛那你剛剛說個人避傷也要向你們登記是嗎\n\n20\n00:07:31,063 --> 00:07:56,223\n現在是好那但是那像你們登記然後你們沒有辦法用行政管制是嗎現在的話我們沒辦法用刑責的方式那這個部分你們沒辦法用行政因為刑責也不歸你們這邊還要立法還要立法所以這個部分你們什麼時候應該也要讓這個個人避傷不然的話這個會變成一個漏洞啊這個詐騙集團他就把錢轉到這個個人避傷的這個手上你就切不掉那最後當然用刑責刑責受害者\n\n21\n00:07:56,883 --> 00:08:24,676\n被害者去報警報警後就進入司法司法程序這麼冗長等到查到的時候那個錢早就不知道留到何方了您瞭解嗎這會變成法律上的漏洞啊是是是我們對那個帳流跟幣流我們也有一些管控措施剛剛提到我們提到未來假設的打詐司法裡面有通過的話這一塊的話我們可以做一些金流的攬桿所以這個如果通過你們裡頭也會包括有關這個個人幣商的部分你們也會做入那個嗎也是納管\n\n22\n00:08:25,556 --> 00:08:26,818\n那會有行政的處罰嗎?\n\n23\n00:08:42,299 --> 00:08:57,170\n超商現在都有這個貨到付款嘛對不對那貨到付款有時候這個貨也不知道是誰的貨然後人家去了就領了莫名其妙就領了你以後就付了款那付了款以後這個錢現在剛付的時候應該還在超商的這個手上就超商的這個的這個帳戶裡頭還不會一下就流到這個\n\n24\n00:09:08,058 --> 00:09:25,149\n有關金流的部分我們是相關的法例或法務部知不知道相關法例是可以規定說比如說他用這種超商平台在詐騙有人會用超商的平台詐騙那詐騙的時候你去超商付款可能刷這個可能付這個以後這個是不是有一個金流時間也可以給他控管住\n\n25\n00:09:25,929 --> 00:09:41,286\n讓至少比如說發現如果比如說我拿了一個東西回來我發現說這個東西不是我訂的我被詐騙了然後趕快回去跟超商講說這多少24小時還多久可以讓這個金融從這裡阻住這樣子因為超商是很方便的地方那有時候這個詐騙人就用這個\n\n26\n00:09:43,948 --> 00:10:05,540\n用它的便利性讓很多人被詐騙比如說ETC要什麼付款就去超商刷那是不是這個金流在這裡可以有一個什麼機制把它堵住金管會您聽得懂我的意思嗎聽懂聽懂我想說主要是剛剛講剛剛我們在報告的時候打詐釋法裡面有一個能夠更及時的阻斷金流的做法我們現在希望有個法院能夠更有效當然\n\n27\n00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:27,762\n我們會支持你的打詐私法我的意思就是說金流部分務實面來講剛有說3000塊轉帳24小時那因為超商是很多人在那邊不管是刷卡或是付這個錢付那個錢有時候付完以後才發現自己被詐騙那是不是在這個部分有在各個這種平台超商也是個平台的部分在這個金流部分裡面要做相關的管控\n\n28\n00:10:29,103 --> 00:10:51,278\n這樣可以防止錢被流到這個詐騙集團上面去因為我發現好多人跟我曾經都去招商做很多事情這部分是不是你們也看一下如果在裡面沒有規定或這個只要行政的手段來做的話法務部或是金管會這邊是不是也來做一個規定我想這可以有效阻絕很多人被騙就是金流流到詐騙集團手上\n\n29\n00:10:51,859 --> 00:10:55,834\n謝謝委員我想這些剛剛提到都在我們未來規定的範圍之內\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5287\t9430\t主席謝謝請這個我們主委有請彭主委主委你好主委你看到這個詐騙這個實在是非常非常的猖獗現在一年有這麼多的這個詐騙的金流在移動我們看我們金門的例子我們金門詐騙多到連警察的帳戶都遭殃\n31568\t49914\t我們金門縣警察局有一位張姓警員他的名下的帳戶被賄賂多筆款項警方及銀行查出來包括詐騙案被害人賄賂的金額那他的帳戶就列為警示帳戶那他當然否認涉案他說是金融卡遺失被人家盜用\n51494\t77715\t但是不管他是參與或是他也是被害者就是遺失金融卡這個表示這個詐騙集團已經猖獗到金門連警察的帳戶都有牽扯到當然他現在被提出這個涉犯詐欺還有洗錢防制以送到地檢署我要講的是連警察的帳戶都被詐騙集團不管是拿去使用還是說撿到這個金融卡那雖然\n78922\t104200\t可見詐騙真的太猖獗了我上次也問過您嘛您好像沒有被詐騙過也有接過詐騙電話只是沒有被騙到啦那我身邊好多人都被詐騙過而且都是算是受過一定教育的不是說那個很多種手法不管是什麼什麼ETC什麼轉帳啊或者是什麼買一個什麼貨到付款啦我身邊好多好多人都詐騙我也接過很多詐騙電話\n105481\t124314\t那我有時候接到電話就懷疑說那天有銀行打來我也開始懷疑說這個銀行怎麼會有資訊他是不是詐騙集團我還問他是不是詐騙集團因為這種沒有辦法判斷你知道嗎那雖然現在破案率很高啊不代表不代表這個打詐成功喔因為抓到的都是這個人頭戶嘛而且都是那個\n125134\t126075\t金融監督管理委員會\n143470\t159546\t而且破案以外對非法人的講是很多財務都追不回來那你們的作為呢我們今天討論你們的作為的時候我看到你們的報告有講說去年9月這個人頭戶專案經驗有9大缺失你看這9大缺失\n160287\t168051\t平房開戶公會會診的異常太陽監控參數有問題沒有辦法即時偵測到異常交易警示的賬戶比對沒有建立沒有即時通知聯徵中心九位往來的客戶調高網路轉帳線客戶的虛擬帳號被警示沒有\n189323\t213063\t連結起來做暫停交易進行調查那這個九大的缺失你們的具體的做了哪些改善有什麼具體成效嗎謝謝委員這個是我們金管會在過去我們真的非常努力在做但是努力並不代表就能夠把它消滅但是我們剛才委員指正了我們現在有十大的做法簡單跟委員講一下\n213743\t243123\t比如第一個我們會強化那個臨櫃關懷其實我們在過去臨櫃關懷這個做很多啦我去過銀行有這邊關懷過關懷這是無微不至這一點是做得很好下一點呢對 下一個就我們剛才委員講的就是帳戶的管理這是我們的重中之重剛剛提到就剛才那個警示帳戶第二類帳戶還有虛擬帳戶還有就是未來我們的揮名單還有境內境外的管控名單這些我們都不斷地在加強這樣的管理所以我們帳戶管理是很重要我們主柵一個非常重要的點\n245184\t258676\t針對新興的支付工具、第三方支付跟電資還有信用卡的部分我們也開始做很多的防堵我們還進行檢查我們還有做比如說未來打詐事法裡面如果通過的話我們還要這邊來強化所以當然這個沒有止境\n264982\t275734\t金管會真的是非常非常重要的角色因為最後都是金流的問題嘛如果詐騙者拿不到錢的話那他可能這個手段的話或是各方面的話就是至少被害者的財產財務的損失\n278657\t291687\t會降低那很重要像我們今天討論這個虛擬貨幣的部分對不對你們說你們這個我看你們這個報告裡面說那個個人幣商如果沒有做洗錢生命那個沒有做這個就詐騙集團他會把這個錢轉換成這個虛擬貨幣這個我們知道現在都慢慢的你們當然有嚴格要求做這個KYC掌控這個人頭賬戶那現在詐騙集團都把錢轉給個人幣商那再進行這個金錢的轉移那現在\n305678\t332266\t你們說個人避傷沒有做洗錢聲明的這個職業聲明因此自屬違法但是這個有違反這個就是虛擬通貨辦法嗎?因為你這個VASP裡頭沒有定義什麼是個人避傷嗎?有違反公司法嗎?現在的話就是我們現階段剛剛講那個刑責部分要等到那個是刑責我知道現在的話我們是他沒有聲明去做這件事情我們現在是有罰則的\n333851\t334795\t你說什麼?個人避傷啊?誰可以罰他?\n340816\t366314\t我們就罰過 對你們也可以罰他就對了 是不是個人避傷的部分 是不是對他有違反你們的VASP的原則嗎洗房辦法裡面 對洗房法是你們這邊罰的嗎洗房法裡面規定的執法這一塊是由我們來主政因為洗錢 這個虛擬資產這一塊業者的洗錢防制的主政單位是他沒有變成公司組織你們有可以就對了 是不是也歸在今晚會這邊可以處罰 是嗎\n367014\t392984\t是的我確認一下因為這個大型的這個我們看到大型的這個平台的這個弊商你們是列管的嘛你們可以做行政管制嘛對 如果說他已經做我們的洗房登記的那些業者如果你說大型的那個平台的話如果有做登記那個人弊商不用你們許可嗎那要做登記嗎 也是要嗎現在現在要現在個人弊商也要做登記未來我們為了強化管理如果沒有登記的而執行這個業務會有刑者\n395532\t419856\t但是行則 我知道行則 但行則比較慢你知道嗎 就等於是中間行則等於是行則不是你們這邊可以決定的嘛 對不對行則要事後的這個比較形式處分嘛行則的要求比較 所以等於是那你在這個部分 你看個人 你看我這個簡報裡頭個人避傷 你們沒有許可 你們做的是行則那做行則的話 最後你們沒有辦法管啦都變成是司法去管啦 法務部去管嘛\n420536\t449642\t對不對那最後進入司法很冗長啦然後最後的話很多受害者的這個金錢事實上也都是拿不到的啊您了解我在說什麼嗎我理解那個關切的就是說你可以管的是大型平台避傷嘛對不對這個你們略管你們可以在行政上先做一些相關的處分嘛那這個是管理得到的比較可以及時比較能及時管到嘛因為它是有你們登記嘛那你剛剛說個人避傷也要向你們登記是嗎\n451063\t476223\t現在是好那但是那像你們登記然後你們沒有辦法用行政管制是嗎現在的話我們沒辦法用刑責的方式那這個部分你們沒辦法用行政因為刑責也不歸你們這邊還要立法還要立法所以這個部分你們什麼時候應該也要讓這個個人避傷不然的話這個會變成一個漏洞啊這個詐騙集團他就把錢轉到這個個人避傷的這個手上你就切不掉那最後當然用刑責刑責受害者\n476883\t504676\t被害者去報警報警後就進入司法司法程序這麼冗長等到查到的時候那個錢早就不知道留到何方了您瞭解嗎這會變成法律上的漏洞啊是是是我們對那個帳流跟幣流我們也有一些管控措施剛剛提到我們提到未來假設的打詐司法裡面有通過的話這一塊的話我們可以做一些金流的攬桿所以這個如果通過你們裡頭也會包括有關這個個人幣商的部分你們也會做入那個嗎也是納管\n505556\t506818\t那會有行政的處罰嗎?\n522299\t537170\t超商現在都有這個貨到付款嘛對不對那貨到付款有時候這個貨也不知道是誰的貨然後人家去了就領了莫名其妙就領了你以後就付了款那付了款以後這個錢現在剛付的時候應該還在超商的這個手上就超商的這個的這個帳戶裡頭還不會一下就流到這個\n548058\t565149\t有關金流的部分我們是相關的法例或法務部知不知道相關法例是可以規定說比如說他用這種超商平台在詐騙有人會用超商的平台詐騙那詐騙的時候你去超商付款可能刷這個可能付這個以後這個是不是有一個金流時間也可以給他控管住\n565929\t581286\t讓至少比如說發現如果比如說我拿了一個東西回來我發現說這個東西不是我訂的我被詐騙了然後趕快回去跟超商講說這多少24小時還多久可以讓這個金融從這裡阻住這樣子因為超商是很方便的地方那有時候這個詐騙人就用這個\n583948\t605540\t用它的便利性讓很多人被詐騙比如說ETC要什麼付款就去超商刷那是不是這個金流在這裡可以有一個什麼機制把它堵住金管會您聽得懂我的意思嗎聽懂聽懂我想說主要是剛剛講剛剛我們在報告的時候打詐釋法裡面有一個能夠更及時的阻斷金流的做法我們現在希望有個法院能夠更有效當然\n606600\t627762\t我們會支持你的打詐私法我的意思就是說金流部分務實面來講剛有說3000塊轉帳24小時那因為超商是很多人在那邊不管是刷卡或是付這個錢付那個錢有時候付完以後才發現自己被詐騙那是不是在這個部分有在各個這種平台超商也是個平台的部分在這個金流部分裡面要做相關的管控\n629103\t651278\t這樣可以防止錢被流到這個詐騙集團上面去因為我發現好多人跟我曾經都去招商做很多事情這部分是不是你們也看一下如果在裡面沒有規定或這個只要行政的手段來做的話法務部或是金管會這邊是不是也來做一個規定我想這可以有效阻絕很多人被騙就是金流流到詐騙集團手上\n651859\t655834\t謝謝委員我想這些剛剛提到都在我們未來規定的範圍之內\n","txt":"主席謝謝請這個我們主委有請彭主委主委你好主委你看到這個詐騙這個實在是非常非常的猖獗現在一年有這麼多的這個詐騙的金流在移動我們看我們金門的例子我們金門詐騙多到連警察的帳戶都遭殃\n我們金門縣警察局有一位張姓警員他的名下的帳戶被賄賂多筆款項警方及銀行查出來包括詐騙案被害人賄賂的金額那他的帳戶就列為警示帳戶那他當然否認涉案他說是金融卡遺失被人家盜用\n但是不管他是參與或是他也是被害者就是遺失金融卡這個表示這個詐騙集團已經猖獗到金門連警察的帳戶都有牽扯到當然他現在被提出這個涉犯詐欺還有洗錢防制以送到地檢署我要講的是連警察的帳戶都被詐騙集團不管是拿去使用還是說撿到這個金融卡那雖然\n可見詐騙真的太猖獗了我上次也問過您嘛您好像沒有被詐騙過也有接過詐騙電話只是沒有被騙到啦那我身邊好多人都被詐騙過而且都是算是受過一定教育的不是說那個很多種手法不管是什麼什麼ETC什麼轉帳啊或者是什麼買一個什麼貨到付款啦我身邊好多好多人都詐騙我也接過很多詐騙電話\n那我有時候接到電話就懷疑說那天有銀行打來我也開始懷疑說這個銀行怎麼會有資訊他是不是詐騙集團我還問他是不是詐騙集團因為這種沒有辦法判斷你知道嗎那雖然現在破案率很高啊不代表不代表這個打詐成功喔因為抓到的都是這個人頭戶嘛而且都是那個\n金融監督管理委員會\n而且破案以外對非法人的講是很多財務都追不回來那你們的作為呢我們今天討論你們的作為的時候我看到你們的報告有講說去年9月這個人頭戶專案經驗有9大缺失你看這9大缺失\n平房開戶公會會診的異常太陽監控參數有問題沒有辦法即時偵測到異常交易警示的賬戶比對沒有建立沒有即時通知聯徵中心九位往來的客戶調高網路轉帳線客戶的虛擬帳號被警示沒有\n連結起來做暫停交易進行調查那這個九大的缺失你們的具體的做了哪些改善有什麼具體成效嗎謝謝委員這個是我們金管會在過去我們真的非常努力在做但是努力並不代表就能夠把它消滅但是我們剛才委員指正了我們現在有十大的做法簡單跟委員講一下\n比如第一個我們會強化那個臨櫃關懷其實我們在過去臨櫃關懷這個做很多啦我去過銀行有這邊關懷過關懷這是無微不至這一點是做得很好下一點呢對 下一個就我們剛才委員講的就是帳戶的管理這是我們的重中之重剛剛提到就剛才那個警示帳戶第二類帳戶還有虛擬帳戶還有就是未來我們的揮名單還有境內境外的管控名單這些我們都不斷地在加強這樣的管理所以我們帳戶管理是很重要我們主柵一個非常重要的點\n針對新興的支付工具、第三方支付跟電資還有信用卡的部分我們也開始做很多的防堵我們還進行檢查我們還有做比如說未來打詐事法裡面如果通過的話我們還要這邊來強化所以當然這個沒有止境\n金管會真的是非常非常重要的角色因為最後都是金流的問題嘛如果詐騙者拿不到錢的話那他可能這個手段的話或是各方面的話就是至少被害者的財產財務的損失\n會降低那很重要像我們今天討論這個虛擬貨幣的部分對不對你們說你們這個我看你們這個報告裡面說那個個人幣商如果沒有做洗錢生命那個沒有做這個就詐騙集團他會把這個錢轉換成這個虛擬貨幣這個我們知道現在都慢慢的你們當然有嚴格要求做這個KYC掌控這個人頭賬戶那現在詐騙集團都把錢轉給個人幣商那再進行這個金錢的轉移那現在\n你們說個人避傷沒有做洗錢聲明的這個職業聲明因此自屬違法但是這個有違反這個就是虛擬通貨辦法嗎?因為你這個VASP裡頭沒有定義什麼是個人避傷嗎?有違反公司法嗎?現在的話就是我們現階段剛剛講那個刑責部分要等到那個是刑責我知道現在的話我們是他沒有聲明去做這件事情我們現在是有罰則的\n你說什麼?個人避傷啊?誰可以罰他?\n我們就罰過 對你們也可以罰他就對了 是不是個人避傷的部分 是不是對他有違反你們的VASP的原則嗎洗房辦法裡面 對洗房法是你們這邊罰的嗎洗房法裡面規定的執法這一塊是由我們來主政因為洗錢 這個虛擬資產這一塊業者的洗錢防制的主政單位是他沒有變成公司組織你們有可以就對了 是不是也歸在今晚會這邊可以處罰 是嗎\n是的我確認一下因為這個大型的這個我們看到大型的這個平台的這個弊商你們是列管的嘛你們可以做行政管制嘛對 如果說他已經做我們的洗房登記的那些業者如果你說大型的那個平台的話如果有做登記那個人弊商不用你們許可嗎那要做登記嗎 也是要嗎現在現在要現在個人弊商也要做登記未來我們為了強化管理如果沒有登記的而執行這個業務會有刑者\n但是行則 我知道行則 但行則比較慢你知道嗎 就等於是中間行則等於是行則不是你們這邊可以決定的嘛 對不對行則要事後的這個比較形式處分嘛行則的要求比較 所以等於是那你在這個部分 你看個人 你看我這個簡報裡頭個人避傷 你們沒有許可 你們做的是行則那做行則的話 最後你們沒有辦法管啦都變成是司法去管啦 法務部去管嘛\n對不對那最後進入司法很冗長啦然後最後的話很多受害者的這個金錢事實上也都是拿不到的啊您了解我在說什麼嗎我理解那個關切的就是說你可以管的是大型平台避傷嘛對不對這個你們略管你們可以在行政上先做一些相關的處分嘛那這個是管理得到的比較可以及時比較能及時管到嘛因為它是有你們登記嘛那你剛剛說個人避傷也要向你們登記是嗎\n現在是好那但是那像你們登記然後你們沒有辦法用行政管制是嗎現在的話我們沒辦法用刑責的方式那這個部分你們沒辦法用行政因為刑責也不歸你們這邊還要立法還要立法所以這個部分你們什麼時候應該也要讓這個個人避傷不然的話這個會變成一個漏洞啊這個詐騙集團他就把錢轉到這個個人避傷的這個手上你就切不掉那最後當然用刑責刑責受害者\n被害者去報警報警後就進入司法司法程序這麼冗長等到查到的時候那個錢早就不知道留到何方了您瞭解嗎這會變成法律上的漏洞啊是是是我們對那個帳流跟幣流我們也有一些管控措施剛剛提到我們提到未來假設的打詐司法裡面有通過的話這一塊的話我們可以做一些金流的攬桿所以這個如果通過你們裡頭也會包括有關這個個人幣商的部分你們也會做入那個嗎也是納管\n那會有行政的處罰嗎?\n超商現在都有這個貨到付款嘛對不對那貨到付款有時候這個貨也不知道是誰的貨然後人家去了就領了莫名其妙就領了你以後就付了款那付了款以後這個錢現在剛付的時候應該還在超商的這個手上就超商的這個的這個帳戶裡頭還不會一下就流到這個\n有關金流的部分我們是相關的法例或法務部知不知道相關法例是可以規定說比如說他用這種超商平台在詐騙有人會用超商的平台詐騙那詐騙的時候你去超商付款可能刷這個可能付這個以後這個是不是有一個金流時間也可以給他控管住\n讓至少比如說發現如果比如說我拿了一個東西回來我發現說這個東西不是我訂的我被詐騙了然後趕快回去跟超商講說這多少24小時還多久可以讓這個金融從這裡阻住這樣子因為超商是很方便的地方那有時候這個詐騙人就用這個\n用它的便利性讓很多人被詐騙比如說ETC要什麼付款就去超商刷那是不是這個金流在這裡可以有一個什麼機制把它堵住金管會您聽得懂我的意思嗎聽懂聽懂我想說主要是剛剛講剛剛我們在報告的時候打詐釋法裡面有一個能夠更及時的阻斷金流的做法我們現在希望有個法院能夠更有效當然\n我們會支持你的打詐私法我的意思就是說金流部分務實面來講剛有說3000塊轉帳24小時那因為超商是很多人在那邊不管是刷卡或是付這個錢付那個錢有時候付完以後才發現自己被詐騙那是不是在這個部分有在各個這種平台超商也是個平台的部分在這個金流部分裡面要做相關的管控\n這樣可以防止錢被流到這個詐騙集團上面去因為我發現好多人跟我曾經都去招商做很多事情這部分是不是你們也看一下如果在裡面沒有規定或這個只要行政的手段來做的話法務部或是金管會這邊是不是也來做一個規定我想這可以有效阻絕很多人被騙就是金流流到詐騙集團手上\n謝謝委員我想這些剛剛提到都在我們未來規定的範圍之內\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.287 --> 00:09.430\n主席謝謝請這個我們主委有請彭主委主委你好主委你看到這個詐騙這個實在是非常非常的猖獗現在一年有這麼多的這個詐騙的金流在移動我們看我們金門的例子我們金門詐騙多到連警察的帳戶都遭殃\n\n00:31.568 --> 00:49.914\n我們金門縣警察局有一位張姓警員他的名下的帳戶被賄賂多筆款項警方及銀行查出來包括詐騙案被害人賄賂的金額那他的帳戶就列為警示帳戶那他當然否認涉案他說是金融卡遺失被人家盜用\n\n00:51.494 --> 01:17.715\n但是不管他是參與或是他也是被害者就是遺失金融卡這個表示這個詐騙集團已經猖獗到金門連警察的帳戶都有牽扯到當然他現在被提出這個涉犯詐欺還有洗錢防制以送到地檢署我要講的是連警察的帳戶都被詐騙集團不管是拿去使用還是說撿到這個金融卡那雖然\n\n01:18.922 --> 01:44.200\n可見詐騙真的太猖獗了我上次也問過您嘛您好像沒有被詐騙過也有接過詐騙電話只是沒有被騙到啦那我身邊好多人都被詐騙過而且都是算是受過一定教育的不是說那個很多種手法不管是什麼什麼ETC什麼轉帳啊或者是什麼買一個什麼貨到付款啦我身邊好多好多人都詐騙我也接過很多詐騙電話\n\n01:45.481 --> 02:04.314\n那我有時候接到電話就懷疑說那天有銀行打來我也開始懷疑說這個銀行怎麼會有資訊他是不是詐騙集團我還問他是不是詐騙集團因為這種沒有辦法判斷你知道嗎那雖然現在破案率很高啊不代表不代表這個打詐成功喔因為抓到的都是這個人頭戶嘛而且都是那個\n\n02:05.134 --> 02:06.075\n金融監督管理委員會\n\n02:23.470 --> 02:39.546\n而且破案以外對非法人的講是很多財務都追不回來那你們的作為呢我們今天討論你們的作為的時候我看到你們的報告有講說去年9月這個人頭戶專案經驗有9大缺失你看這9大缺失\n\n02:40.287 --> 02:48.051\n平房開戶公會會診的異常太陽監控參數有問題沒有辦法即時偵測到異常交易警示的賬戶比對沒有建立沒有即時通知聯徵中心九位往來的客戶調高網路轉帳線客戶的虛擬帳號被警示沒有\n\n03:09.323 --> 03:33.063\n連結起來做暫停交易進行調查那這個九大的缺失你們的具體的做了哪些改善有什麼具體成效嗎謝謝委員這個是我們金管會在過去我們真的非常努力在做但是努力並不代表就能夠把它消滅但是我們剛才委員指正了我們現在有十大的做法簡單跟委員講一下\n\n03:33.743 --> 04:03.123\n比如第一個我們會強化那個臨櫃關懷其實我們在過去臨櫃關懷這個做很多啦我去過銀行有這邊關懷過關懷這是無微不至這一點是做得很好下一點呢對下一個就我們剛才委員講的就是帳戶的管理這是我們的重中之重剛剛提到就剛才那個警示帳戶第二類帳戶還有虛擬帳戶還有就是未來我們的揮名單還有境內境外的管控名單這些我們都不斷地在加強這樣的管理所以我們帳戶管理是很重要我們主柵一個非常重要的點\n\n04:05.184 --> 04:18.676\n針對新興的支付工具、第三方支付跟電資還有信用卡的部分我們也開始做很多的防堵我們還進行檢查我們還有做比如說未來打詐事法裡面如果通過的話我們還要這邊來強化所以當然這個沒有止境\n\n04:24.982 --> 04:35.734\n金管會真的是非常非常重要的角色因為最後都是金流的問題嘛如果詐騙者拿不到錢的話那他可能這個手段的話或是各方面的話就是至少被害者的財產財務的損失\n\n04:38.657 --> 04:51.687\n會降低那很重要像我們今天討論這個虛擬貨幣的部分對不對你們說你們這個我看你們這個報告裡面說那個個人幣商如果沒有做洗錢生命那個沒有做這個就詐騙集團他會把這個錢轉換成這個虛擬貨幣這個我們知道現在都慢慢的你們當然有嚴格要求做這個KYC掌控這個人頭賬戶那現在詐騙集團都把錢轉給個人幣商那再進行這個金錢的轉移那現在\n\n05:05.678 --> 05:32.266\n你們說個人避傷沒有做洗錢聲明的這個職業聲明因此自屬違法但是這個有違反這個就是虛擬通貨辦法嗎?因為你這個VASP裡頭沒有定義什麼是個人避傷嗎?有違反公司法嗎?現在的話就是我們現階段剛剛講那個刑責部分要等到那個是刑責我知道現在的話我們是他沒有聲明去做這件事情我們現在是有罰則的\n\n05:33.851 --> 05:34.795\n你說什麼?個人避傷啊?誰可以罰他?\n\n05:40.816 --> 06:06.314\n我們就罰過對你們也可以罰他就對了是不是個人避傷的部分是不是對他有違反你們的VASP的原則嗎洗房辦法裡面對洗房法是你們這邊罰的嗎洗房法裡面規定的執法這一塊是由我們來主政因為洗錢這個虛擬資產這一塊業者的洗錢防制的主政單位是他沒有變成公司組織你們有可以就對了是不是也歸在今晚會這邊可以處罰是嗎\n\n06:07.014 --> 06:32.984\n是的我確認一下因為這個大型的這個我們看到大型的這個平台的這個弊商你們是列管的嘛你們可以做行政管制嘛對如果說他已經做我們的洗房登記的那些業者如果你說大型的那個平台的話如果有做登記那個人弊商不用你們許可嗎那要做登記嗎也是要嗎現在現在要現在個人弊商也要做登記未來我們為了強化管理如果沒有登記的而執行這個業務會有刑者\n\n06:35.532 --> 06:59.856\n但是行則我知道行則但行則比較慢你知道嗎就等於是中間行則等於是行則不是你們這邊可以決定的嘛對不對行則要事後的這個比較形式處分嘛行則的要求比較所以等於是那你在這個部分你看個人你看我這個簡報裡頭個人避傷你們沒有許可你們做的是行則那做行則的話最後你們沒有辦法管啦都變成是司法去管啦法務部去管嘛\n\n07:00.536 --> 07:29.642\n對不對那最後進入司法很冗長啦然後最後的話很多受害者的這個金錢事實上也都是拿不到的啊您了解我在說什麼嗎我理解那個關切的就是說你可以管的是大型平台避傷嘛對不對這個你們略管你們可以在行政上先做一些相關的處分嘛那這個是管理得到的比較可以及時比較能及時管到嘛因為它是有你們登記嘛那你剛剛說個人避傷也要向你們登記是嗎\n\n07:31.063 --> 07:56.223\n現在是好那但是那像你們登記然後你們沒有辦法用行政管制是嗎現在的話我們沒辦法用刑責的方式那這個部分你們沒辦法用行政因為刑責也不歸你們這邊還要立法還要立法所以這個部分你們什麼時候應該也要讓這個個人避傷不然的話這個會變成一個漏洞啊這個詐騙集團他就把錢轉到這個個人避傷的這個手上你就切不掉那最後當然用刑責刑責受害者\n\n07:56.883 --> 08:24.676\n被害者去報警報警後就進入司法司法程序這麼冗長等到查到的時候那個錢早就不知道留到何方了您瞭解嗎這會變成法律上的漏洞啊是是是我們對那個帳流跟幣流我們也有一些管控措施剛剛提到我們提到未來假設的打詐司法裡面有通過的話這一塊的話我們可以做一些金流的攬桿所以這個如果通過你們裡頭也會包括有關這個個人幣商的部分你們也會做入那個嗎也是納管\n\n08:25.556 --> 08:26.818\n那會有行政的處罰嗎?\n\n08:42.299 --> 08:57.170\n超商現在都有這個貨到付款嘛對不對那貨到付款有時候這個貨也不知道是誰的貨然後人家去了就領了莫名其妙就領了你以後就付了款那付了款以後這個錢現在剛付的時候應該還在超商的這個手上就超商的這個的這個帳戶裡頭還不會一下就流到這個\n\n09:08.058 --> 09:25.149\n有關金流的部分我們是相關的法例或法務部知不知道相關法例是可以規定說比如說他用這種超商平台在詐騙有人會用超商的平台詐騙那詐騙的時候你去超商付款可能刷這個可能付這個以後這個是不是有一個金流時間也可以給他控管住\n\n09:25.929 --> 09:41.286\n讓至少比如說發現如果比如說我拿了一個東西回來我發現說這個東西不是我訂的我被詐騙了然後趕快回去跟超商講說這多少24小時還多久可以讓這個金融從這裡阻住這樣子因為超商是很方便的地方那有時候這個詐騙人就用這個\n\n09:43.948 --> 10:05.540\n用它的便利性讓很多人被詐騙比如說ETC要什麼付款就去超商刷那是不是這個金流在這裡可以有一個什麼機制把它堵住金管會您聽得懂我的意思嗎聽懂聽懂我想說主要是剛剛講剛剛我們在報告的時候打詐釋法裡面有一個能夠更及時的阻斷金流的做法我們現在希望有個法院能夠更有效當然\n\n10:06.600 --> 10:27.762\n我們會支持你的打詐私法我的意思就是說金流部分務實面來講剛有說3000塊轉帳24小時那因為超商是很多人在那邊不管是刷卡或是付這個錢付那個錢有時候付完以後才發現自己被詐騙那是不是在這個部分有在各個這種平台超商也是個平台的部分在這個金流部分裡面要做相關的管控\n\n10:29.103 --> 10:51.278\n這樣可以防止錢被流到這個詐騙集團上面去因為我發現好多人跟我曾經都去招商做很多事情這部分是不是你們也看一下如果在裡面沒有規定或這個只要行政的手段來做的話法務部或是金管會這邊是不是也來做一個規定我想這可以有效阻絕很多人被騙就是金流流到詐騙集團手上\n\n10:51.859 --> 10:55.834\n謝謝委員我想這些剛剛提到都在我們未來規定的範圍之內\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.287,"end":9.43,"text":"主席謝謝請這個我們主委有請彭主委主委你好主委你看到這個詐騙這個實在是非常非常的猖獗現在一年有這麼多的這個詐騙的金流在移動我們看我們金門的例子我們金門詐騙多到連警察的帳戶都遭殃"},{"start":31.568,"end":49.914,"text":"我們金門縣警察局有一位張姓警員他的名下的帳戶被賄賂多筆款項警方及銀行查出來包括詐騙案被害人賄賂的金額那他的帳戶就列為警示帳戶那他當然否認涉案他說是金融卡遺失被人家盜用"},{"start":51.494,"end":77.715,"text":"但是不管他是參與或是他也是被害者就是遺失金融卡這個表示這個詐騙集團已經猖獗到金門連警察的帳戶都有牽扯到當然他現在被提出這個涉犯詐欺還有洗錢防制以送到地檢署我要講的是連警察的帳戶都被詐騙集團不管是拿去使用還是說撿到這個金融卡那雖然"},{"start":78.922,"end":104.2,"text":"可見詐騙真的太猖獗了我上次也問過您嘛您好像沒有被詐騙過也有接過詐騙電話只是沒有被騙到啦那我身邊好多人都被詐騙過而且都是算是受過一定教育的不是說那個很多種手法不管是什麼什麼ETC什麼轉帳啊或者是什麼買一個什麼貨到付款啦我身邊好多好多人都詐騙我也接過很多詐騙電話"},{"start":105.481,"end":124.314,"text":"那我有時候接到電話就懷疑說那天有銀行打來我也開始懷疑說這個銀行怎麼會有資訊他是不是詐騙集團我還問他是不是詐騙集團因為這種沒有辦法判斷你知道嗎那雖然現在破案率很高啊不代表不代表這個打詐成功喔因為抓到的都是這個人頭戶嘛而且都是那個"},{"start":125.134,"end":126.075,"text":"金融監督管理委員會"},{"start":143.47,"end":159.546,"text":"而且破案以外對非法人的講是很多財務都追不回來那你們的作為呢我們今天討論你們的作為的時候我看到你們的報告有講說去年9月這個人頭戶專案經驗有9大缺失你看這9大缺失"},{"start":160.287,"end":168.051,"text":"平房開戶公會會診的異常太陽監控參數有問題沒有辦法即時偵測到異常交易警示的賬戶比對沒有建立沒有即時通知聯徵中心九位往來的客戶調高網路轉帳線客戶的虛擬帳號被警示沒有"},{"start":189.323,"end":213.063,"text":"連結起來做暫停交易進行調查那這個九大的缺失你們的具體的做了哪些改善有什麼具體成效嗎謝謝委員這個是我們金管會在過去我們真的非常努力在做但是努力並不代表就能夠把它消滅但是我們剛才委員指正了我們現在有十大的做法簡單跟委員講一下"},{"start":213.743,"end":243.123,"text":"比如第一個我們會強化那個臨櫃關懷其實我們在過去臨櫃關懷這個做很多啦我去過銀行有這邊關懷過關懷這是無微不至這一點是做得很好下一點呢對 下一個就我們剛才委員講的就是帳戶的管理這是我們的重中之重剛剛提到就剛才那個警示帳戶第二類帳戶還有虛擬帳戶還有就是未來我們的揮名單還有境內境外的管控名單這些我們都不斷地在加強這樣的管理所以我們帳戶管理是很重要我們主柵一個非常重要的點"},{"start":245.184,"end":258.676,"text":"針對新興的支付工具、第三方支付跟電資還有信用卡的部分我們也開始做很多的防堵我們還進行檢查我們還有做比如說未來打詐事法裡面如果通過的話我們還要這邊來強化所以當然這個沒有止境"},{"start":264.982,"end":275.734,"text":"金管會真的是非常非常重要的角色因為最後都是金流的問題嘛如果詐騙者拿不到錢的話那他可能這個手段的話或是各方面的話就是至少被害者的財產財務的損失"},{"start":278.657,"end":291.687,"text":"會降低那很重要像我們今天討論這個虛擬貨幣的部分對不對你們說你們這個我看你們這個報告裡面說那個個人幣商如果沒有做洗錢生命那個沒有做這個就詐騙集團他會把這個錢轉換成這個虛擬貨幣這個我們知道現在都慢慢的你們當然有嚴格要求做這個KYC掌控這個人頭賬戶那現在詐騙集團都把錢轉給個人幣商那再進行這個金錢的轉移那現在"},{"start":305.678,"end":332.266,"text":"你們說個人避傷沒有做洗錢聲明的這個職業聲明因此自屬違法但是這個有違反這個就是虛擬通貨辦法嗎?因為你這個VASP裡頭沒有定義什麼是個人避傷嗎?有違反公司法嗎?現在的話就是我們現階段剛剛講那個刑責部分要等到那個是刑責我知道現在的話我們是他沒有聲明去做這件事情我們現在是有罰則的"},{"start":333.851,"end":334.795,"text":"你說什麼?個人避傷啊?誰可以罰他?"},{"start":340.816,"end":366.314,"text":"我們就罰過 對你們也可以罰他就對了 是不是個人避傷的部分 是不是對他有違反你們的VASP的原則嗎洗房辦法裡面 對洗房法是你們這邊罰的嗎洗房法裡面規定的執法這一塊是由我們來主政因為洗錢 這個虛擬資產這一塊業者的洗錢防制的主政單位是他沒有變成公司組織你們有可以就對了 是不是也歸在今晚會這邊可以處罰 是嗎"},{"start":367.014,"end":392.984,"text":"是的我確認一下因為這個大型的這個我們看到大型的這個平台的這個弊商你們是列管的嘛你們可以做行政管制嘛對 如果說他已經做我們的洗房登記的那些業者如果你說大型的那個平台的話如果有做登記那個人弊商不用你們許可嗎那要做登記嗎 也是要嗎現在現在要現在個人弊商也要做登記未來我們為了強化管理如果沒有登記的而執行這個業務會有刑者"},{"start":395.532,"end":419.856,"text":"但是行則 我知道行則 但行則比較慢你知道嗎 就等於是中間行則等於是行則不是你們這邊可以決定的嘛 對不對行則要事後的這個比較形式處分嘛行則的要求比較 所以等於是那你在這個部分 你看個人 你看我這個簡報裡頭個人避傷 你們沒有許可 你們做的是行則那做行則的話 最後你們沒有辦法管啦都變成是司法去管啦 法務部去管嘛"},{"start":420.536,"end":449.642,"text":"對不對那最後進入司法很冗長啦然後最後的話很多受害者的這個金錢事實上也都是拿不到的啊您了解我在說什麼嗎我理解那個關切的就是說你可以管的是大型平台避傷嘛對不對這個你們略管你們可以在行政上先做一些相關的處分嘛那這個是管理得到的比較可以及時比較能及時管到嘛因為它是有你們登記嘛那你剛剛說個人避傷也要向你們登記是嗎"},{"start":451.063,"end":476.223,"text":"現在是好那但是那像你們登記然後你們沒有辦法用行政管制是嗎現在的話我們沒辦法用刑責的方式那這個部分你們沒辦法用行政因為刑責也不歸你們這邊還要立法還要立法所以這個部分你們什麼時候應該也要讓這個個人避傷不然的話這個會變成一個漏洞啊這個詐騙集團他就把錢轉到這個個人避傷的這個手上你就切不掉那最後當然用刑責刑責受害者"},{"start":476.883,"end":504.676,"text":"被害者去報警報警後就進入司法司法程序這麼冗長等到查到的時候那個錢早就不知道留到何方了您瞭解嗎這會變成法律上的漏洞啊是是是我們對那個帳流跟幣流我們也有一些管控措施剛剛提到我們提到未來假設的打詐司法裡面有通過的話這一塊的話我們可以做一些金流的攬桿所以這個如果通過你們裡頭也會包括有關這個個人幣商的部分你們也會做入那個嗎也是納管"},{"start":505.556,"end":506.818,"text":"那會有行政的處罰嗎?"},{"start":522.299,"end":537.17,"text":"超商現在都有這個貨到付款嘛對不對那貨到付款有時候這個貨也不知道是誰的貨然後人家去了就領了莫名其妙就領了你以後就付了款那付了款以後這個錢現在剛付的時候應該還在超商的這個手上就超商的這個的這個帳戶裡頭還不會一下就流到這個"},{"start":548.058,"end":565.149,"text":"有關金流的部分我們是相關的法例或法務部知不知道相關法例是可以規定說比如說他用這種超商平台在詐騙有人會用超商的平台詐騙那詐騙的時候你去超商付款可能刷這個可能付這個以後這個是不是有一個金流時間也可以給他控管住"},{"start":565.929,"end":581.286,"text":"讓至少比如說發現如果比如說我拿了一個東西回來我發現說這個東西不是我訂的我被詐騙了然後趕快回去跟超商講說這多少24小時還多久可以讓這個金融從這裡阻住這樣子因為超商是很方便的地方那有時候這個詐騙人就用這個"},{"start":583.948,"end":605.54,"text":"用它的便利性讓很多人被詐騙比如說ETC要什麼付款就去超商刷那是不是這個金流在這裡可以有一個什麼機制把它堵住金管會您聽得懂我的意思嗎聽懂聽懂我想說主要是剛剛講剛剛我們在報告的時候打詐釋法裡面有一個能夠更及時的阻斷金流的做法我們現在希望有個法院能夠更有效當然"},{"start":606.6,"end":627.762,"text":"我們會支持你的打詐私法我的意思就是說金流部分務實面來講剛有說3000塊轉帳24小時那因為超商是很多人在那邊不管是刷卡或是付這個錢付那個錢有時候付完以後才發現自己被詐騙那是不是在這個部分有在各個這種平台超商也是個平台的部分在這個金流部分裡面要做相關的管控"},{"start":629.103,"end":651.278,"text":"這樣可以防止錢被流到這個詐騙集團上面去因為我發現好多人跟我曾經都去招商做很多事情這部分是不是你們也看一下如果在裡面沒有規定或這個只要行政的手段來做的話法務部或是金管會這邊是不是也來做一個規定我想這可以有效阻絕很多人被騙就是金流流到詐騙集團手上"},{"start":651.859,"end":655.834,"text":"謝謝委員我想這些剛剛提到都在我們未來規定的範圍之內"}]}}}}