{"id":153858,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153858","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819c2e908c430b387c459a48fe1a1d57c38dd6f040307a1001a090407a59ae08d9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:41:31 - 11:49:33","影片長度":"00:08:02","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:41:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:49:33+08:00","duration":482,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":793,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時41分）有請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：主席、翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：蔡局長好。我想今天大家都非常關心有關於大陸快艇──鴻津號，在9號上午闖進淡水渡船頭的靠岸事件。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：其實從這個事件凸顯出整個國安確實出現重大漏洞，還不僅只是海巡署的問題。這些年來，大陸偷渡客事件屢見不鮮，雖然跟30年前相比，偷渡客人數已經大幅下降。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，沒有增加。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，沒有增加。當然有可能也是因為疫情之後，臺灣這裡看起來也無利可圖，所以偷渡客的數量就減少。不過我想從這個事情來看的話，還是反映出國安單位在有關偷渡客的情資掌控方面是不是出了大問題？而且現在偷渡客除了大陸偷渡客之外，還有東南亞方面的偷渡客嗎？這方面可以請局長說明嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員說明一下，就對岸的偷渡客來講，從去年到現在大概有18件，其中有兩件是進到臺灣本島的水域跟港口，一件是在中部地區，一件是在這兩天發生的淡水地區。就整體偷渡客相關數據來講，剛剛有跟委員提到，數據並沒有大量增加，過去這六年大概偷渡客的數量是1,456員，其中最大量的來源還是在越南，大概占了1,154員，其中中國大陸的部分大概有142員，所以這大概是近六年來偷渡客的整體狀況，這次強調的是沒有太明顯的數據增加。"],["翁委員曉玲：就偷渡客的數量看起來，雖然說大陸的偷渡客沒有增加，但是整體而言其實還是挺多的。請問國安局到底有沒有掌控有關於偷渡客上來臺灣之後，這邊接頭單位的相關情資？為什麼還是有這麼多偷渡客會來臺灣？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，委員剛剛提到一個很好的問題，對於過去18件中國偷渡客的案例，就國安單位來講，我們有一個一個去瞭解到他們對於調查過程當中的說辭……"],["翁委員曉玲：除了中國的偷渡客之外，其他東南亞偷渡客的部分呢？你們都沒有相關的……"],["蔡局長明彥：都有，因為只要有偷渡客進來的話，一來在相關單位進行了行政調查之後，都要移送檢方進行偵辦，所以檢方也會針對他的犯行看有沒有違反入出境管理法或相關的國安法規。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，瞭解。不過從實際的數據來看，看起來我覺得我們這裡的掌控可能還不是很好，否則的話也不會有這麼多偷渡客還是會來臺灣，所以我希望國安局在這方面，未來在情資掌控方面還是要加強。"],["蔡局長明彥：好的。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我想請教一個問題，就是前幾天在新聞上面有看到沈伯洋委員說，村里長，還有立法委員、大學教授是中共的第五縱隊，是會被中共滲透的高風險人士。請問局長您同意這個說法嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛也有其他委員提問過這個問題，基本上，對於委員們有這方面的討論，我們都尊重，但是在數據上，剛剛我也做了一些說明。就國安單位來講，我們看待所謂共諜案的偵辦必須要有法律的依據，根據我們的國安法或相關的反滲透法來看他的行為有沒有違反相關的法律要件，假如有證據的話，我們才能移送檢察機關或調查機關進行偵辦。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解。請問你們通常啟動的標準是什麼？如果是違反反滲透法或違反你們講的國安法……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：或是上述的這些人士可能在大陸定居、有親友在大陸定居、經商、參訪或接受大陸的招待？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，對於兩岸間正常合法的交往活動，我們都尊重，也不會有任何意見。就國安單位來講，我們要注意的是有沒有違反相關的法規，舉例來講，依照國安法與反滲透法，主要的包括發展組織、有介選的活動，也就是干預到投票或集會遊行的活動。"],["翁委員曉玲：簡單來說，還是要請局長幫忙澄清一下，就目前你們國安局所調查的案件當中，基本上，沒有什麼涉及到大學教授的案子、涉及到立委的案子，有嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：從去年到現在偵辦了81件案子，其中被起訴的有39案，主要涉及到的還是竊密……"],["翁委員曉玲：其中的對象有立法委員嗎？有大學教授嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前沒有。主要涉及的案子還是竊密，特別是涉及對軍中資訊的竊密，第二個是介選，案件的型態大概就是如此。"],["翁委員曉玲：不過有關於介選的案子，看起來很多的起訴案件到最後，有一種是不起訴、另一種就是判決確定……"],["蔡局長明彥：去年到現在有31件起訴。"],["翁委員曉玲：但通常最後被判決確定有罪的比例是非常之低。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，要走過這個程序。"],["翁委員曉玲：再來要請問關於前立委趙天麟的案子，你們現在調查的情況如何？在新聞媒體將事情爆發之前，你們是不是就已經有相關情資？"],["蔡局長明彥：在這個案子爆發之後，檢方已經介入偵辦，在他們介入偵辦之後，我們行政單位就不太適合再進行相關的調查，但是假如檢方需要國安單位提供資訊的話，我們也會提供。"],["翁委員曉玲：在新聞媒體爆發這個案子之前，你們是不是就已經有相關情資？針對立委有大陸女友的這件事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：針對這個案子，我們在事前並沒有了解到這位委員有這樣的交往狀況。"],["翁委員曉玲：由此可見，其實你們掌握的情資還不是很透徹嘛！如果你們對於有些委員……"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一般不會特別針對哪位委員個人交友狀況進行政治偵防，不會。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為他的交友對象不一樣啊！交友對象是很特殊的啊！我必須說國安局對這方面的情資掌握還是有些問題。","最後要請問局長，最近有消息傳出，針對立法院即將進行覆議案表決的事情，可能會有政黨團體發動抗議群眾衝進立法院癱瘓議事程序，請問局長有獲知這個訊息嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：假如有任何陳抗情資，我們都會進行通報。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們到現在都還沒有開始了解相關的情資嗎？連我們一般人都知道了，你們都沒有嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有在注意，但我們要注意的是它有沒有啟動相關的動員機制，假如有的話，我們就會進行通報，包括警政署及相關調查單位都會通報到國安局這邊。"],["翁委員曉玲：對於這些年來國安局蒐集的相關情資似乎都追不上整個事情發展的態度，我希望……"],["蔡局長明彥：不會，我們國安單位包括了11個團隊都很努力。"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望你們能夠好好的掌握相關事情的發展，畢竟立法院是國家最高的民意機構，我們的尊嚴及安全必須要維護，不容輕忽。在這裡我也希望國安局要負起保護憲政機關的責任，不要讓立法院這個憲政機關受到任何的傷害，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛向委員報告的偵辦案件及起訴案件已經是創下歷年來最高最高的記錄了，我們都很積極在偵辦，謝謝委員的提醒，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是起訴之後判決確定的比例非常低，代表著有濫訴的可能性，以上。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重司法，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請洪孟楷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"153858","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153858","tool":"pyannote","id":"153858-pyannote"},"job_id":"3tYZfTN4htTEXApi","queued_at":"2024-06-12 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332.204, \"end\": 332.304, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 332.304, \"end\": 332.344, \"score\": 0.511}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 332.344, \"end\": 332.404, \"score\": 0.55}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 332.404, \"end\": 332.604, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 332.604, \"end\": 332.885, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 332.885, \"end\": 333.165, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 333.165, \"end\": 333.565, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 333.565, \"end\": 333.585, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"資\"}]}, {\"start\": 334.717, \"end\": 353.423, \"text\": \"因為這個案子爆發之後檢方已經介入偵辦那在介入偵辦之後我們行政單位就不太適合再進行相關的調查但假如檢方有需要國安單位來提供資訊的話我意思是講說在這個案子新聞爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資對於這個立委有大陸女友的這件事情\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 334.717, \"end\": 335.097, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 335.097, \"end\": 335.317, 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\"end\": 482.296, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 482.296, \"end\": 482.416, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 482.416, \"end\": 482.436, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,729 --> 00:00:07,492\n有請蔡局長我想今天大家都非常關心有關於這個大陸的快艇紅金號9號的時候上午闖進淡水度船頭的靠岸事件那其實從這個事件裡面凸顯出\n\n2\n00:00:26,661 --> 00:00:51,151\n整個國安確實出現了重大的漏洞還不僅只是海巡署的問題那麼這些年來其實大陸偷渡客的事件屢見不鮮雖然說跟30年前相比偷渡客的人數已經大幅的下降對沒有增加對沒有增加那當然有可能也是因為疫情之後其實台灣這裡看起來也無利可圖啦所以這個偷渡客的數量就減少\n\n3\n00:00:53,712 --> 00:00:54,432\n對岸的偷渡客來講從去年到現在大概有18件\n\n4\n00:01:23,092 --> 00:01:44,627\n那其中有兩件就是間接到臺灣本島的水域跟港口一件是在中部地區那一件是在這兩天發生的淡水地區那就整體的偷渡客的相關的數據來講剛剛跟委員有提到數據並沒有大量的增加過去這6年大概偷渡客的數量有1456人那其中最大量的來源還是在於\n\n5\n00:01:45,567 --> 00:01:46,188\n雖然說大陸的偷渡客\n\n6\n00:02:06,545 --> 00:02:07,405\n對,委員剛剛提到一個很好的問題就是說對於剛剛過去十幾件、十八件中國偷渡客的案例\n\n7\n00:02:27,955 --> 00:02:39,529\n那就國安單位來講,我們有一個一個去了解到他們對於調查過程當中的說辭。除了中國的大陸的偷渡客之外,其他的東南亞偷渡客的部分呢?你們都沒有?都有都有,因為這個只要有偷渡客進來的話,一來在相關單位進行了行政調查之後,都移送到警方來進行偵辦。\n\n8\n00:02:47,418 --> 00:03:15,992\n所以檢方也會針對他的一個範型看有沒有違反入出境管理法或相關的國安法規是了解不過就是說從這個實際的數據來看看起來我覺得我們這裡的掌控可能還不是很好那麼否則的話我們也不會有這麼多的偷渡客還是會來台灣所以我希望說國安局在這方面未來在情資的掌控方面還是要加強那接下來我想請教一個問題也是前幾天在新聞上面有看到沈博洋委員說\n\n9\n00:03:17,173 --> 00:03:28,101\n村里長還有立法委員、大學教授是中共的第五大中隊是會被中共滲透的高風險人士請問局長您同意這個說法嗎?\n\n10\n00:03:30,469 --> 00:03:49,818\n對這個問題剛剛也有其他的委員在提問那基本上來講我想對於委員們有這方面的討論我們都尊重那但是在數據上我剛剛也有做一些說明就國安單位來講我們在看所謂的共諜案的偵辦我們必須要有法律的依據針對我們的國安法或相關的反滲透法來看他的行為有沒有違反相關的法律要件\n\n11\n00:03:50,458 --> 00:04:09,151\n假如有證據的話,我們才能夠移送到檢查機關或調查機關來進行偵犯。好,了解。那請問一下,你們通常來講啟動的調查的標準是什麼?如果說是違反反滲透法或是你們講的違反國安法,是這些上面這些人士他們可能在大陸有定居,有親友在大陸定居經商或是常常去大陸參訪,接受大陸的招待?\n\n12\n00:04:11,653 --> 00:04:29,374\n沒有這個部分就是對於兩岸比較正常和合法的一個交往活動我們都尊重也不會有任何的意見就國安單位來講我們比較注意的是有沒有違反相關的法規舉例來講依照國安法跟反滲透法主要的有包括發展組織主要的有可能包括有借選的活動\n\n13\n00:04:33,538 --> 00:04:46,849\n簡單來說還是可以請局長幫我們澄清一下就你們現在目前國安局所調查的案件當中基本上沒有什麼是有涉及到大學教授的案子立委的案子有嗎?\n\n14\n00:04:48,250 --> 00:04:57,055\n從去年到現在偵辦有81件的案子其中被起訴的有39案那主要涉及到的還是簽密那現在主要的涉及到的這幾個案子主要的還是在於簽密特別是涉及到對於軍中資訊的簽密第二個就是借選\n\n15\n00:05:09,263 --> 00:05:33,585\n有關於金選案子看起來好像就是很多的起訴案子後來也都一種是不起訴另外一種有31件起訴去年到現在31件起訴但是通常來講就是到最後就被判決確定有罪的這個比例是非常之低接下來我想請問一下有關於那個前立委趙天寧的案子你們現在的情況怎麼樣你們在這個新聞媒體爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資\n\n16\n00:05:34,717 --> 00:05:53,423\n因為這個案子爆發之後檢方已經介入偵辦那在介入偵辦之後我們行政單位就不太適合再進行相關的調查但假如檢方有需要國安單位來提供資訊的話我意思是講說在這個案子新聞爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資對於這個立委有大陸女友的這件事情\n\n17\n00:05:54,424 --> 00:05:59,028\n這個案子我們並沒有在事前有瞭解到這位委員有這樣的交往的狀況對,但我們對於委員的個人交友狀況我們一般不會特別去針對哪個委員的個人交友狀況來進行政治偵訪\n\n18\n00:06:11,281 --> 00:06:28,175\n交友對象是很特殊的啊所以我必須說我覺得國安局在這方面的情資掌握還是有些問題然後最後我想要再問局長的就是因為最近有消息傳出說可能會有政黨團體會針對立法院即將進行的復議案的表決的這個事情那會發動抗議群眾衝進立法院癱瘓議事程序請問局長有獲知這個訊息嗎\n\n19\n00:06:38,982 --> 00:07:02,980\n假如有任何的那個陳抗情資的話我們都會進行通報所以你們現在都還沒有接獲任何的都還沒開始了解相關的情資嗎?因為我們一般人我們現在都知道了有在注意但是我們要注意的是他是不是有啟動他的一個相關的動員的機制那假如有的話我們就會進行通報這包括警政署還有相關調查單位都會通報到國安局這邊來\n\n20\n00:07:03,820 --> 00:07:28,285\n因為以本席看最近國安局還有這些年來國安局所收集的相關情資似乎好像都追不上整個事情發展的這個害處所以我希望你們能夠好好的掌握這個相關事情的發展畢竟立法院是國家最高的民意機構我們的尊嚴和安全必須要\n\n21\n00:07:29,085 --> 00:07:31,787\n但是起訴之後判決確定的比例非常低：在代表有濫訴的可能性\n\n22\n00:07:59,537 --> 00:08:02,436\n我們接下來請洪孟楷委員上台\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n729\t7492\t有請蔡局長我想今天大家都非常關心有關於這個大陸的快艇紅金號9號的時候上午闖進淡水度船頭的靠岸事件那其實從這個事件裡面 凸顯出\n26661\t51151\t整個國安確實出現了重大的漏洞還不僅只是海巡署的問題那麼這些年來其實大陸偷渡客的事件屢見不鮮雖然說跟30年前相比偷渡客的人數已經大幅的下降對 沒有增加對 沒有增加那當然有可能也是因為疫情之後其實台灣這裡看起來也無利可圖啦所以這個偷渡客的數量就減少\n53712\t54432\t對岸的偷渡客來講從去年到現在大概有18件\n83092\t104627\t那其中有兩件就是間接到臺灣本島的水域跟港口一件是在中部地區那一件是在這兩天發生的淡水地區那就整體的偷渡客的相關的數據來講剛剛跟委員有提到數據並沒有大量的增加過去這6年大概偷渡客的數量有1456人那其中最大量的來源還是在於\n105567\t106188\t雖然說大陸的偷渡客\n126545\t127405\t對,委員剛剛提到一個很好的問題就是說對於剛剛過去十幾件、十八件中國偷渡客的案例\n147955\t159529\t那就國安單位來講,我們有一個一個去了解到他們對於調查過程當中的說辭。除了中國的大陸的偷渡客之外,其他的東南亞偷渡客的部分呢?你們都沒有?都有都有,因為這個只要有偷渡客進來的話,一來在相關單位進行了行政調查之後,都移送到警方來進行偵辦。\n167418\t195992\t所以檢方也會針對他的一個範型看有沒有違反入出境管理法或相關的國安法規是了解不過就是說從這個實際的數據來看看起來我覺得我們這裡的掌控可能還不是很好那麼否則的話我們也不會有這麼多的偷渡客還是會來台灣所以我希望說國安局在這方面未來在情資的掌控方面還是要加強那接下來我想請教一個問題也是前幾天在新聞上面有看到沈博洋委員說\n197173\t208101\t村里長還有立法委員、大學教授是中共的第五大中隊是會被中共滲透的高風險人士請問局長您同意這個說法嗎?\n210469\t229818\t對 這個問題剛剛也有其他的委員在提問那基本上來講我想對於委員們有這方面的討論我們都尊重那但是在數據上我剛剛也有做一些說明就國安單位來講我們在看所謂的共諜案的偵辦我們必須要有法律的依據針對我們的國安法或相關的反滲透法來看他的行為有沒有違反相關的法律要件\n230458\t249151\t假如有證據的話,我們才能夠移送到檢查機關或調查機關來進行偵犯。好,了解。那請問一下,你們通常來講啟動的調查的標準是什麼?如果說是違反反滲透法或是你們講的違反國安法,是這些上面這些人士他們可能在大陸有定居,有親友在大陸定居經商或是常常去大陸參訪,接受大陸的招待?\n251653\t269374\t沒有 這個部分就是對於兩岸比較正常和合法的一個交往活動我們都尊重也不會有任何的意見就國安單位來講我們比較注意的是有沒有違反相關的法規舉例來講 依照國安法跟反滲透法主要的有包括發展組織主要的有可能包括有借選的活動\n273538\t286849\t簡單來說還是可以請局長幫我們澄清一下就你們現在目前國安局所調查的案件當中基本上沒有什麼是有涉及到大學教授的案子立委的案子有嗎?\n288250\t297055\t從去年到現在偵辦有81件的案子其中被起訴的有39案那主要涉及到的還是簽密那現在主要的涉及到的這幾個案子主要的還是在於簽密特別是涉及到對於軍中資訊的簽密第二個就是借選\n309263\t333585\t有關於金選案子看起來好像就是很多的起訴案子後來也都一種是不起訴另外一種有31件起訴去年到現在31件起訴但是通常來講就是到最後就被判決確定有罪的這個比例是非常之低接下來我想請問一下有關於那個前立委趙天寧的案子你們現在的情況怎麼樣你們在這個新聞媒體爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資\n334717\t353423\t因為這個案子爆發之後檢方已經介入偵辦那在介入偵辦之後我們行政單位就不太適合再進行相關的調查但假如檢方有需要國安單位來提供資訊的話我意思是講說在這個案子新聞爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資對於這個立委有大陸女友的這件事情\n354424\t359028\t這個案子我們並沒有在事前有瞭解到這位委員有這樣的交往的狀況對,但我們對於委員的個人交友狀況我們一般不會特別去針對哪個委員的個人交友狀況來進行政治偵訪\n371281\t388175\t交友對象是很特殊的啊所以我必須說我覺得國安局在這方面的情資掌握還是有些問題然後最後我想要再問局長的就是因為最近有消息傳出說可能會有政黨團體會針對立法院即將進行的復議案的表決的這個事情那會發動抗議群眾衝進立法院癱瘓議事程序請問局長有獲知這個訊息嗎\n398982\t422980\t假如有任何的那個陳抗情資的話我們都會進行通報所以你們現在都還沒有接獲任何的都還沒開始了解相關的情資嗎?因為我們一般人我們現在都知道了有在注意但是我們要注意的是他是不是有啟動他的一個相關的動員的機制那假如有的話我們就會進行通報這包括警政署還有相關調查單位都會通報到國安局這邊來\n423820\t448285\t因為以本席看最近國安局還有這些年來國安局所收集的相關情資似乎好像都追不上整個事情發展的這個害處所以我希望你們能夠好好的掌握這個相關事情的發展畢竟立法院是國家最高的民意機構我們的尊嚴和安全必須要\n449085\t451787\t但是起訴之後判決確定的比例非常低：在代表有濫訴的可能性\n479537\t482436\t我們接下來請洪孟楷委員上台\n","txt":"有請蔡局長我想今天大家都非常關心有關於這個大陸的快艇紅金號9號的時候上午闖進淡水度船頭的靠岸事件那其實從這個事件裡面 凸顯出\n整個國安確實出現了重大的漏洞還不僅只是海巡署的問題那麼這些年來其實大陸偷渡客的事件屢見不鮮雖然說跟30年前相比偷渡客的人數已經大幅的下降對 沒有增加對 沒有增加那當然有可能也是因為疫情之後其實台灣這裡看起來也無利可圖啦所以這個偷渡客的數量就減少\n對岸的偷渡客來講從去年到現在大概有18件\n那其中有兩件就是間接到臺灣本島的水域跟港口一件是在中部地區那一件是在這兩天發生的淡水地區那就整體的偷渡客的相關的數據來講剛剛跟委員有提到數據並沒有大量的增加過去這6年大概偷渡客的數量有1456人那其中最大量的來源還是在於\n雖然說大陸的偷渡客\n對,委員剛剛提到一個很好的問題就是說對於剛剛過去十幾件、十八件中國偷渡客的案例\n那就國安單位來講,我們有一個一個去了解到他們對於調查過程當中的說辭。除了中國的大陸的偷渡客之外,其他的東南亞偷渡客的部分呢?你們都沒有?都有都有,因為這個只要有偷渡客進來的話,一來在相關單位進行了行政調查之後,都移送到警方來進行偵辦。\n所以檢方也會針對他的一個範型看有沒有違反入出境管理法或相關的國安法規是了解不過就是說從這個實際的數據來看看起來我覺得我們這裡的掌控可能還不是很好那麼否則的話我們也不會有這麼多的偷渡客還是會來台灣所以我希望說國安局在這方面未來在情資的掌控方面還是要加強那接下來我想請教一個問題也是前幾天在新聞上面有看到沈博洋委員說\n村里長還有立法委員、大學教授是中共的第五大中隊是會被中共滲透的高風險人士請問局長您同意這個說法嗎?\n對 這個問題剛剛也有其他的委員在提問那基本上來講我想對於委員們有這方面的討論我們都尊重那但是在數據上我剛剛也有做一些說明就國安單位來講我們在看所謂的共諜案的偵辦我們必須要有法律的依據針對我們的國安法或相關的反滲透法來看他的行為有沒有違反相關的法律要件\n假如有證據的話,我們才能夠移送到檢查機關或調查機關來進行偵犯。好,了解。那請問一下,你們通常來講啟動的調查的標準是什麼?如果說是違反反滲透法或是你們講的違反國安法,是這些上面這些人士他們可能在大陸有定居,有親友在大陸定居經商或是常常去大陸參訪,接受大陸的招待?\n沒有 這個部分就是對於兩岸比較正常和合法的一個交往活動我們都尊重也不會有任何的意見就國安單位來講我們比較注意的是有沒有違反相關的法規舉例來講 依照國安法跟反滲透法主要的有包括發展組織主要的有可能包括有借選的活動\n簡單來說還是可以請局長幫我們澄清一下就你們現在目前國安局所調查的案件當中基本上沒有什麼是有涉及到大學教授的案子立委的案子有嗎?\n從去年到現在偵辦有81件的案子其中被起訴的有39案那主要涉及到的還是簽密那現在主要的涉及到的這幾個案子主要的還是在於簽密特別是涉及到對於軍中資訊的簽密第二個就是借選\n有關於金選案子看起來好像就是很多的起訴案子後來也都一種是不起訴另外一種有31件起訴去年到現在31件起訴但是通常來講就是到最後就被判決確定有罪的這個比例是非常之低接下來我想請問一下有關於那個前立委趙天寧的案子你們現在的情況怎麼樣你們在這個新聞媒體爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資\n因為這個案子爆發之後檢方已經介入偵辦那在介入偵辦之後我們行政單位就不太適合再進行相關的調查但假如檢方有需要國安單位來提供資訊的話我意思是講說在這個案子新聞爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資對於這個立委有大陸女友的這件事情\n這個案子我們並沒有在事前有瞭解到這位委員有這樣的交往的狀況對,但我們對於委員的個人交友狀況我們一般不會特別去針對哪個委員的個人交友狀況來進行政治偵訪\n交友對象是很特殊的啊所以我必須說我覺得國安局在這方面的情資掌握還是有些問題然後最後我想要再問局長的就是因為最近有消息傳出說可能會有政黨團體會針對立法院即將進行的復議案的表決的這個事情那會發動抗議群眾衝進立法院癱瘓議事程序請問局長有獲知這個訊息嗎\n假如有任何的那個陳抗情資的話我們都會進行通報所以你們現在都還沒有接獲任何的都還沒開始了解相關的情資嗎?因為我們一般人我們現在都知道了有在注意但是我們要注意的是他是不是有啟動他的一個相關的動員的機制那假如有的話我們就會進行通報這包括警政署還有相關調查單位都會通報到國安局這邊來\n因為以本席看最近國安局還有這些年來國安局所收集的相關情資似乎好像都追不上整個事情發展的這個害處所以我希望你們能夠好好的掌握這個相關事情的發展畢竟立法院是國家最高的民意機構我們的尊嚴和安全必須要\n但是起訴之後判決確定的比例非常低：在代表有濫訴的可能性\n我們接下來請洪孟楷委員上台\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.729 --> 00:07.492\n有請蔡局長我想今天大家都非常關心有關於這個大陸的快艇紅金號9號的時候上午闖進淡水度船頭的靠岸事件那其實從這個事件裡面凸顯出\n\n00:26.661 --> 00:51.151\n整個國安確實出現了重大的漏洞還不僅只是海巡署的問題那麼這些年來其實大陸偷渡客的事件屢見不鮮雖然說跟30年前相比偷渡客的人數已經大幅的下降對沒有增加對沒有增加那當然有可能也是因為疫情之後其實台灣這裡看起來也無利可圖啦所以這個偷渡客的數量就減少\n\n00:53.712 --> 00:54.432\n對岸的偷渡客來講從去年到現在大概有18件\n\n01:23.092 --> 01:44.627\n那其中有兩件就是間接到臺灣本島的水域跟港口一件是在中部地區那一件是在這兩天發生的淡水地區那就整體的偷渡客的相關的數據來講剛剛跟委員有提到數據並沒有大量的增加過去這6年大概偷渡客的數量有1456人那其中最大量的來源還是在於\n\n01:45.567 --> 01:46.188\n雖然說大陸的偷渡客\n\n02:06.545 --> 02:07.405\n對,委員剛剛提到一個很好的問題就是說對於剛剛過去十幾件、十八件中國偷渡客的案例\n\n02:27.955 --> 02:39.529\n那就國安單位來講,我們有一個一個去了解到他們對於調查過程當中的說辭。除了中國的大陸的偷渡客之外,其他的東南亞偷渡客的部分呢?你們都沒有?都有都有,因為這個只要有偷渡客進來的話,一來在相關單位進行了行政調查之後,都移送到警方來進行偵辦。\n\n02:47.418 --> 03:15.992\n所以檢方也會針對他的一個範型看有沒有違反入出境管理法或相關的國安法規是了解不過就是說從這個實際的數據來看看起來我覺得我們這裡的掌控可能還不是很好那麼否則的話我們也不會有這麼多的偷渡客還是會來台灣所以我希望說國安局在這方面未來在情資的掌控方面還是要加強那接下來我想請教一個問題也是前幾天在新聞上面有看到沈博洋委員說\n\n03:17.173 --> 03:28.101\n村里長還有立法委員、大學教授是中共的第五大中隊是會被中共滲透的高風險人士請問局長您同意這個說法嗎?\n\n03:30.469 --> 03:49.818\n對這個問題剛剛也有其他的委員在提問那基本上來講我想對於委員們有這方面的討論我們都尊重那但是在數據上我剛剛也有做一些說明就國安單位來講我們在看所謂的共諜案的偵辦我們必須要有法律的依據針對我們的國安法或相關的反滲透法來看他的行為有沒有違反相關的法律要件\n\n03:50.458 --> 04:09.151\n假如有證據的話,我們才能夠移送到檢查機關或調查機關來進行偵犯。好,了解。那請問一下,你們通常來講啟動的調查的標準是什麼?如果說是違反反滲透法或是你們講的違反國安法,是這些上面這些人士他們可能在大陸有定居,有親友在大陸定居經商或是常常去大陸參訪,接受大陸的招待?\n\n04:11.653 --> 04:29.374\n沒有這個部分就是對於兩岸比較正常和合法的一個交往活動我們都尊重也不會有任何的意見就國安單位來講我們比較注意的是有沒有違反相關的法規舉例來講依照國安法跟反滲透法主要的有包括發展組織主要的有可能包括有借選的活動\n\n04:33.538 --> 04:46.849\n簡單來說還是可以請局長幫我們澄清一下就你們現在目前國安局所調查的案件當中基本上沒有什麼是有涉及到大學教授的案子立委的案子有嗎?\n\n04:48.250 --> 04:57.055\n從去年到現在偵辦有81件的案子其中被起訴的有39案那主要涉及到的還是簽密那現在主要的涉及到的這幾個案子主要的還是在於簽密特別是涉及到對於軍中資訊的簽密第二個就是借選\n\n05:09.263 --> 05:33.585\n有關於金選案子看起來好像就是很多的起訴案子後來也都一種是不起訴另外一種有31件起訴去年到現在31件起訴但是通常來講就是到最後就被判決確定有罪的這個比例是非常之低接下來我想請問一下有關於那個前立委趙天寧的案子你們現在的情況怎麼樣你們在這個新聞媒體爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資\n\n05:34.717 --> 05:53.423\n因為這個案子爆發之後檢方已經介入偵辦那在介入偵辦之後我們行政單位就不太適合再進行相關的調查但假如檢方有需要國安單位來提供資訊的話我意思是講說在這個案子新聞爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資對於這個立委有大陸女友的這件事情\n\n05:54.424 --> 05:59.028\n這個案子我們並沒有在事前有瞭解到這位委員有這樣的交往的狀況對,但我們對於委員的個人交友狀況我們一般不會特別去針對哪個委員的個人交友狀況來進行政治偵訪\n\n06:11.281 --> 06:28.175\n交友對象是很特殊的啊所以我必須說我覺得國安局在這方面的情資掌握還是有些問題然後最後我想要再問局長的就是因為最近有消息傳出說可能會有政黨團體會針對立法院即將進行的復議案的表決的這個事情那會發動抗議群眾衝進立法院癱瘓議事程序請問局長有獲知這個訊息嗎\n\n06:38.982 --> 07:02.980\n假如有任何的那個陳抗情資的話我們都會進行通報所以你們現在都還沒有接獲任何的都還沒開始了解相關的情資嗎?因為我們一般人我們現在都知道了有在注意但是我們要注意的是他是不是有啟動他的一個相關的動員的機制那假如有的話我們就會進行通報這包括警政署還有相關調查單位都會通報到國安局這邊來\n\n07:03.820 --> 07:28.285\n因為以本席看最近國安局還有這些年來國安局所收集的相關情資似乎好像都追不上整個事情發展的這個害處所以我希望你們能夠好好的掌握這個相關事情的發展畢竟立法院是國家最高的民意機構我們的尊嚴和安全必須要\n\n07:29.085 --> 07:31.787\n但是起訴之後判決確定的比例非常低：在代表有濫訴的可能性\n\n07:59.537 --> 08:02.436\n我們接下來請洪孟楷委員上台\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.729,"end":7.492,"text":"有請蔡局長我想今天大家都非常關心有關於這個大陸的快艇紅金號9號的時候上午闖進淡水度船頭的靠岸事件那其實從這個事件裡面 凸顯出"},{"start":26.661,"end":51.151,"text":"整個國安確實出現了重大的漏洞還不僅只是海巡署的問題那麼這些年來其實大陸偷渡客的事件屢見不鮮雖然說跟30年前相比偷渡客的人數已經大幅的下降對 沒有增加對 沒有增加那當然有可能也是因為疫情之後其實台灣這裡看起來也無利可圖啦所以這個偷渡客的數量就減少"},{"start":53.712,"end":54.432,"text":"對岸的偷渡客來講從去年到現在大概有18件"},{"start":83.092,"end":104.627,"text":"那其中有兩件就是間接到臺灣本島的水域跟港口一件是在中部地區那一件是在這兩天發生的淡水地區那就整體的偷渡客的相關的數據來講剛剛跟委員有提到數據並沒有大量的增加過去這6年大概偷渡客的數量有1456人那其中最大量的來源還是在於"},{"start":105.567,"end":106.188,"text":"雖然說大陸的偷渡客"},{"start":126.545,"end":127.405,"text":"對,委員剛剛提到一個很好的問題就是說對於剛剛過去十幾件、十八件中國偷渡客的案例"},{"start":147.955,"end":159.529,"text":"那就國安單位來講,我們有一個一個去了解到他們對於調查過程當中的說辭。除了中國的大陸的偷渡客之外,其他的東南亞偷渡客的部分呢?你們都沒有?都有都有,因為這個只要有偷渡客進來的話,一來在相關單位進行了行政調查之後,都移送到警方來進行偵辦。"},{"start":167.418,"end":195.992,"text":"所以檢方也會針對他的一個範型看有沒有違反入出境管理法或相關的國安法規是了解不過就是說從這個實際的數據來看看起來我覺得我們這裡的掌控可能還不是很好那麼否則的話我們也不會有這麼多的偷渡客還是會來台灣所以我希望說國安局在這方面未來在情資的掌控方面還是要加強那接下來我想請教一個問題也是前幾天在新聞上面有看到沈博洋委員說"},{"start":197.173,"end":208.101,"text":"村里長還有立法委員、大學教授是中共的第五大中隊是會被中共滲透的高風險人士請問局長您同意這個說法嗎?"},{"start":210.469,"end":229.818,"text":"對 這個問題剛剛也有其他的委員在提問那基本上來講我想對於委員們有這方面的討論我們都尊重那但是在數據上我剛剛也有做一些說明就國安單位來講我們在看所謂的共諜案的偵辦我們必須要有法律的依據針對我們的國安法或相關的反滲透法來看他的行為有沒有違反相關的法律要件"},{"start":230.458,"end":249.151,"text":"假如有證據的話,我們才能夠移送到檢查機關或調查機關來進行偵犯。好,了解。那請問一下,你們通常來講啟動的調查的標準是什麼?如果說是違反反滲透法或是你們講的違反國安法,是這些上面這些人士他們可能在大陸有定居,有親友在大陸定居經商或是常常去大陸參訪,接受大陸的招待?"},{"start":251.653,"end":269.374,"text":"沒有 這個部分就是對於兩岸比較正常和合法的一個交往活動我們都尊重也不會有任何的意見就國安單位來講我們比較注意的是有沒有違反相關的法規舉例來講 依照國安法跟反滲透法主要的有包括發展組織主要的有可能包括有借選的活動"},{"start":273.538,"end":286.849,"text":"簡單來說還是可以請局長幫我們澄清一下就你們現在目前國安局所調查的案件當中基本上沒有什麼是有涉及到大學教授的案子立委的案子有嗎?"},{"start":288.25,"end":297.055,"text":"從去年到現在偵辦有81件的案子其中被起訴的有39案那主要涉及到的還是簽密那現在主要的涉及到的這幾個案子主要的還是在於簽密特別是涉及到對於軍中資訊的簽密第二個就是借選"},{"start":309.263,"end":333.585,"text":"有關於金選案子看起來好像就是很多的起訴案子後來也都一種是不起訴另外一種有31件起訴去年到現在31件起訴但是通常來講就是到最後就被判決確定有罪的這個比例是非常之低接下來我想請問一下有關於那個前立委趙天寧的案子你們現在的情況怎麼樣你們在這個新聞媒體爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資"},{"start":334.717,"end":353.423,"text":"因為這個案子爆發之後檢方已經介入偵辦那在介入偵辦之後我們行政單位就不太適合再進行相關的調查但假如檢方有需要國安單位來提供資訊的話我意思是講說在這個案子新聞爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資對於這個立委有大陸女友的這件事情"},{"start":354.424,"end":359.028,"text":"這個案子我們並沒有在事前有瞭解到這位委員有這樣的交往的狀況對,但我們對於委員的個人交友狀況我們一般不會特別去針對哪個委員的個人交友狀況來進行政治偵訪"},{"start":371.281,"end":388.175,"text":"交友對象是很特殊的啊所以我必須說我覺得國安局在這方面的情資掌握還是有些問題然後最後我想要再問局長的就是因為最近有消息傳出說可能會有政黨團體會針對立法院即將進行的復議案的表決的這個事情那會發動抗議群眾衝進立法院癱瘓議事程序請問局長有獲知這個訊息嗎"},{"start":398.982,"end":422.98,"text":"假如有任何的那個陳抗情資的話我們都會進行通報所以你們現在都還沒有接獲任何的都還沒開始了解相關的情資嗎?因為我們一般人我們現在都知道了有在注意但是我們要注意的是他是不是有啟動他的一個相關的動員的機制那假如有的話我們就會進行通報這包括警政署還有相關調查單位都會通報到國安局這邊來"},{"start":423.82,"end":448.285,"text":"因為以本席看最近國安局還有這些年來國安局所收集的相關情資似乎好像都追不上整個事情發展的這個害處所以我希望你們能夠好好的掌握這個相關事情的發展畢竟立法院是國家最高的民意機構我們的尊嚴和安全必須要"},{"start":449.085,"end":451.787,"text":"但是起訴之後判決確定的比例非常低：在代表有濫訴的可能性"},{"start":479.537,"end":482.436,"text":"我們接下來請洪孟楷委員上台"}]}}}}