{"id":153872,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153872","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81955aa9f7e073d1a1b0fec08313b105ec0f1306821ff1b0f81a62c72e1009a343c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:10:21 - 12:17:09","影片長度":"00:06:48","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T12:10:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:17:09+08:00","duration":408,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":947,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時10分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請國發會劉主委和經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請兩位。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好、部長好。來，先請教部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，最近你很紅。當然我們提到AI的應用跟生產耗能大，不只它的製造，它的硬體運作跟冷卻用電需求量很大。綠色和平組織指出，臺灣2023的工業耗電占了55%，台積電在內的半導體產業電力消耗量，2021年至2030年要增加兩倍多，是不是這樣子？那這麼大的數量，我們來看一下，單單是這麼多的半導體產業，台積電要蓋7座3奈米，預估到2030年台積電用電占全臺六分之一耶！經濟部有把握嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有把握。好，那您還告訴大家一個好消息，因為各縣市首長都在搶輝達，你說沒有關係、沒有關係，2030年至少還有10座資料中心要建置，對不對？大家趕快去分。請問一下，這10座資料中心耗不耗能？用不用電？"],["郭部長智輝：耗能也用電。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那請教一下，為了滿足未來半導體製造還有人工智慧硬體運作及冷卻需求，你們有對未來的用電需求做了評估了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那也知道要怎麼樣去把目前的供電提高來滿足未來的需求，有做一個計畫了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有做這樣的假設了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我就開始來問一下，2030年您是說不會缺電，除非明年起AI用電暴增，我這個不太清楚，去年我們國家臺灣大概用了2,821億度多的電，其中再生能源占了267億度多，占比大概9%，是這樣子。請問到了2030年，你預估臺灣的用電需求要多少？2030年臺灣需要用到多少電？我聽說是3,400億度，是這樣嗎？數字正確吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這當中的綠電要多少？綠電需求。"],["郭部長智輝：我們的規劃是30%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：30%，大概就是408億度的電。好，從不到300億度要增到400億度，那怎麼來呢？我們往下看。目前國際企業加入RE100要求供應鏈要100%的綠能，這其中的綠能項目有1、2、3、4、5，你覺得臺灣都有具備嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：目前生質能是比較少。"],["鍾委員佳濱：地熱有潛力。"],["郭部長智輝：2、3、4、5都有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：風、光不錯，水力在發展當中。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那有包含核電嗎？RE100。"],["郭部長智輝：RE100沒有包含。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以其實大家最關心的，未來因應臺灣產業的外銷需求，我們需要的綠電不包含核電，已經問過第3次了。","接下來，請問你估計國際企業在臺灣建置數據中心及臺灣高科技產業的廠商，要合乎RE100的再生能源需求，未來的綠電供應足夠了嗎？你如何來提高這些綠電，滿足他們的需求？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，經過我們的盤算是足夠的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：足夠，那有什麼手段嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對於有綠電需求的廠商，我們就給它綠電；不需要綠電的廠商，我們就給它其他的規電。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，都是這樣子。好，綠電不夠賣，要買綠電買不到，那目前有一個說法，就是1,000度的綠電被台積電拿走900度，中小企業買不到，為什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是在過去啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：過去。"],["郭部長智輝：我來了以後，我們現在馬上要成立一個綠電平臺，所以我想這些中小企業都買得到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們往下看。其實大廠購電的合約可以讓光電業者、風電業者去融資，這您知道吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前光電、風電需要很大的融資嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這些購電契約它可以用專案融資，你知道為什麼中小企業拿不到這個購電契約嗎？因為銀行不同意貸款，那怎麼解決？"],["郭部長智輝：銀行的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我風電場要跟銀行融資，我可以拿上市櫃公司的購電契約去做專案融資。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：中小企業來跟我們買電，打的契約沒有用，怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我想我們經濟部會來處理啦！我們會給它一些……我們可能會去撮合一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們希望用電價分級的方式來處理，是這個目的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最近你們希望把綠電、一般電、低碳電分開來，需要綠電的去買，你中小企業就算沒有辦法去跟風電業者取得購電契約，你都可以透過這個平臺來購買，是不是這樣的意思？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那就要明白地說出來，不然大家搞不清楚為什麼電價要分級，是看我家的用電多寡還是用什麼方式。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在來請教國發會的主委，風光發電具間歇性，我們供應基載用電是不是要氫能？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：氫能是我們的一部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一部分。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：儲能的部分，氫能很重要。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，目前臺灣的氫能除了儲能之外，有待發展的空間，各個部會怎麼去做？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前除了儲能的部分以外，我們跟中研院也會有一些計畫做藍綠氫的發展。另外，其實我們最近也在探尋地熱，因為菲律賓已經有一點多Gigawatt，已經在運轉的地熱，所以多元綠能是我們現在在探尋的方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：您說得很好，多元綠能，這是我搜尋到的，包括電解海水去製氫，包括把天然氣轉成綠氫或藍綠氫，以及我們要燃料電池來作為儲能設備一個很重要的基礎，是不是這樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以國科會已經盤點了這些技術，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，未來氫能的發展和它的技術補助要從基礎設施切入，有沒有大幅地擴大民生需求？有沒有具體的計畫？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前這個部分，因為它的成本比較高，我們還是在實驗階段，只是預備for未來比較長期的發展。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。最後，再請郭部長，請經濟部能夠盤點未來國際企業及臺廠需求，就符合RE100再生能源供給是否足夠，提出一個符合RE100再生能源的商業模式評估，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是商業模式，我剛剛講到的，小企業買不到電，你有商業模式怎麼樣讓它買得到綠電。第二個，請國發會研議「為達到2050淨零碳排下的能源結構轉化，行政院推動氫能產業部會分工」方案，部會有分工，可以提出評估後給本席嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請張智倫委員、張智倫、張智倫委員。","請陳培瑜委員發言，4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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398.794, \"end\": 399.154, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 399.154, \"end\": 399.294, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 399.294, \"end\": 399.414, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 399.414, \"end\": 399.514, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 399.514, \"end\": 399.954, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 399.954, \"end\": 400.374, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 400.374, \"end\": 400.494, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 400.494, \"end\": 400.795, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 400.795, \"end\": 400.955, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 400.955, \"end\": 401.335, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 401.335, \"end\": 401.555, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 401.555, \"end\": 401.695, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 401.695, \"end\": 401.835, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 401.835, \"end\": 402.055, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 402.055, \"end\": 402.135, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 402.135, \"end\": 402.195, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 402.195, \"end\": 402.335, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 402.335, \"end\": 403.016, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 403.016, \"end\": 403.156, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 403.156, \"end\": 403.896, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 403.896, \"end\": 404.056, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 404.056, \"end\": 404.837, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 404.837, \"end\": 405.337, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 405.337, \"end\": 405.857, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 405.857, \"end\": 406.418, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 406.418, \"end\": 406.538, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 406.538, \"end\": 407.098, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 407.098, \"end\": 407.258, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 407.258, \"end\": 407.278, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:18,740\n接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做巡檔10分鐘謝謝主席在場的委員先進列席的正午江蘇黨官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們國發會劉主委和經濟部郭部長請兩位謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:26,604 --> 00:00:45,801\n主委好部長好來先請教部長部長最近你很紅我們提到AI它的應用跟生產耗能大不只它的製造它的硬體的運作跟冷卻用電需求量很大那這裡有一個綠色民主是指出我們台灣到2023的工業耗電佔了55%那到了這個台積電它的半導體產業到2021年到2030年要增加兩倍多是不是這樣子\n\n3\n00:00:55,049 --> 00:01:23,665\n那這麼大的數量我們來看一下當然是這麼多的半導體產業台積電要蓋7座3奈米預估到2030年台積電用電占全台六分之一經濟部有把握嗎有有把握好那你還告訴他一個好消息因為這個各縣市首長都在搶回答你說沒有關係沒有關係2030年至少還有10座的資料中心要建置對不對大家趕快去分那請問一下這10座資料中心耗不耗能用不用電\n\n4\n00:01:24,804 --> 00:01:44,454\n耗能與用電那好那請教一下那就是為了滿足未來半導體製造還有人工智慧的硬體運作及冷卻需求你們有對未來的用電需求做了評估了嗎有那也知道要怎麼樣去把目前的供電提高到未來的滿足對未來的需求有做了一個計畫了嗎有做這樣的這個假設了好那我就開始來問一下了\n\n5\n00:01:45,655 --> 00:02:10,955\n2030年您是說不會缺電除非明年起AI用電暴增我這個不太清楚去年我們國家台灣大概用了2821度多的電那其中的再生能源占了大概267億多大概占比大概9%是這樣子那請問到了2030年你預估台灣的用電需求要多少2030年台灣需要用到多少電我聽說是3400億度是這樣嗎\n\n6\n00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:38,580\n數字正確吧是那這當中的綠電要多少綠電需求我們的規劃是30%30%大概就是408億度的電好那要從不到300億度要增大到400億度那怎麼來呢我們往下看那目前國際企業要求RE100供應內要100%的綠能那這其中的綠能有1、2、3、4、5你覺得台灣都有具備嗎\n\n7\n00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:49,516\n目前生智能是比較少的有潛力風光不錯水利在發展當中那有包含核電嗎\n\n8\n00:02:51,840 --> 00:03:19,568\nR100R100沒有包含所以其實大家要關心的未來因應台灣的產業的外銷需求我們需要的綠電不包含核電英文過第三次了接下來那請問你估計國際企業在台灣建制數據中心及高科技產業的廠商要合乎R100的再生能源需求未來的綠電供應足夠了嗎你如何來提高這些綠電滿足他們的需求報告委員經過我們的盤算是足夠的足夠那有什麼手段嗎\n\n9\n00:03:21,209 --> 00:03:41,301\n我們會把綠電需求的廠商我們就給他綠電那不需要綠電的廠商我們就給他其他的綠電綠電不夠賣目前那要買綠電買不到那目前有一個說法說1000度的綠電被台階拿走900度了中小企業買不到為什麼\n\n10\n00:03:43,212 --> 00:04:10,482\n這是在過去啦那報告委員這是我來了以後我們現在馬上要成立一個綠電平台是所以我想這些中小企業都買得到好那我們來往下看其實呢大廠購電的合約可以讓風光業者、風電業者去融資這您知道吧目前光電、風電它需要很大的融資嘛是所以這些購電契約它可能用專融資你知道為什麼中小企業拿不到這個購電契約嗎因為銀行不同意貸款那怎麼解決\n\n11\n00:04:12,537 --> 00:04:14,478\n中小企業來跟我買電打的契約沒有用,怎麼辦?\n\n12\n00:04:31,888 --> 00:04:49,609\n他也可以賣給,我們可能會去撮合一下所以你們希望用電價分級的方式來處理,是這個目的嗎?是最近就是說你們希望把綠電、一般電、低碳電分開來需要綠電的去買你中小企業就算沒有辦法去跟風電業者取得購電契約你都可以透過這個平台來購買,是不是這樣意思?是的\n\n13\n00:04:50,069 --> 00:05:17,092\n好那就要明白地說出來不然大家搞不清楚為什麼店家要分級是看我家的用電多寡還是用什麼方式好往下看所以呢現在來請教我們國發會的主委我們風光發電機的建設性我們供應機載用電是不是要氫能氫能是我們的一部分一部分儲能的部分氫能很重要對好那你目前台灣的氫能除了儲能之外還有待發展的空間各部會怎麼去做\n\n14\n00:05:19,515 --> 00:05:45,934\n我們目前除了這個這個儲能的部分以外我們其實跟中研院現在也會跟他有一些計畫做來濾清的發展那另外其實我們最近也在探尋地熱因為菲律賓就已經有一點多Gigawatt已經在運轉的地熱所以這些都是多元利能是我們現在在探尋的方向您說得很好多元利能這是我搜尋到的上一頁包括電解海水去置清包括把天然氣轉成濾清或燃濾清\n\n15\n00:05:47,535 --> 00:06:03,576\n以及我們要燃料電池作為儲能設備的重要基礎。」所以國科委也要盤點這些技術了,是嗎?所以未來氫能的發展和技術補助要從基礎設施切入,有沒有大幅擴大民生需求,有沒有具體的計畫?\n\n16\n00:06:05,078 --> 00:06:22,166\n目前我們這個部分因為它的成本比較高我們還是在實驗階段但是只是預備否未來比較長期的發展好最後再請郭部長請經濟部能夠盤點未來國際企業及台廠需求就符合R1-100再生能源供給是否足夠\n\n17\n00:06:22,745 --> 00:06:47,278\n提出一個符合R100增增能源的商業模式評估可以嗎?可以就是商業模式我剛剛講到了小企業買不到電你有商業模式怎麼樣讓他買得到綠電第二個那請國發會研議未達成2050淨零碳對不起淨血錯了能源結構的轉化行政院推動氣能產業的部會分工部會有分工可以提出來評估後給本席嗎?沒問題好謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t18740\t接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做巡檔10分鐘 謝謝主席在場的委員先進列席的正午江蘇黨官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們國發會劉主委和經濟部郭部長請兩位 謝謝\n26604\t45801\t主委好部長好來先請教部長部長最近你很紅我們提到AI它的應用跟生產耗能大不只它的製造它的硬體的運作跟冷卻用電需求量很大那這裡有一個綠色民主是指出我們台灣到2023的工業耗電佔了55%那到了這個台積電它的半導體產業到2021年到2030年要增加兩倍多是不是這樣子\n55049\t83665\t那這麼大的數量我們來看一下當然是這麼多的半導體產業台積電要蓋7座3奈米預估到2030年台積電用電占全台六分之一經濟部有把握嗎有有把握好那你還告訴他一個好消息因為這個各縣市首長都在搶回答你說沒有關係沒有關係2030年至少還有10座的資料中心要建置對不對大家趕快去分那請問一下這10座資料中心耗不耗能用不用電\n84804\t104454\t耗能與用電那好 那請教一下那就是為了滿足未來半導體製造還有人工智慧的硬體運作及冷卻需求你們有對未來的用電需求做了評估了嗎有那也知道要怎麼樣去把目前的供電提高到未來的滿足對未來的需求有做了一個計畫了嗎有做這樣的這個假設了好 那我就開始來問一下了\n105655\t130955\t2030年您是說不會缺電除非明年起AI用電暴增我這個不太清楚去年我們國家台灣大概用了2821度多的電那其中的再生能源占了大概267億多大概占比大概9%是這樣子那請問到了2030年你預估台灣的用電需求要多少2030年台灣需要用到多少電我聽說是3400億度是這樣嗎\n133840\t158580\t數字正確吧是那這當中的綠電要多少綠電需求我們的規劃是30%30%大概就是408億度的電好 那要從不到300億度要增大到400億度那怎麼來呢 我們往下看那目前國際企業要求RE100供應內要100%的綠能那這其中的綠能有1、2、3、4、5你覺得台灣都有具備嗎\n160919\t169516\t目前生智能是比較少的有潛力風光不錯水利在發展當中那有包含核電嗎\n171840\t199568\tR100R100沒有包含所以其實大家要關心的未來因應台灣的產業的外銷需求我們需要的綠電不包含核電英文過第三次了接下來那請問你估計國際企業在台灣建制數據中心及高科技產業的廠商要合乎R100的再生能源需求未來的綠電供應足夠了嗎你如何來提高這些綠電滿足他們的需求報告委員經過我們的盤算是足夠的足夠那有什麼手段嗎\n201209\t221301\t我們會把綠電需求的廠商我們就給他綠電那不需要綠電的廠商我們就給他其他的綠電綠電不夠賣目前那要買綠電買不到那目前有一個說法說1000度的綠電被台階拿走900度了中小企業買不到為什麼\n223212\t250482\t這是在過去啦那報告委員這是我來了以後我們現在馬上要成立一個綠電平台是所以我想這些中小企業都買得到好 那我們來往下看其實呢大廠購電的合約可以讓風光業者、風電業者去融資這您知道吧目前光電、風電它需要很大的融資嘛是所以這些購電契約它可能用專融資你知道為什麼中小企業拿不到這個購電契約嗎因為銀行不同意貸款那怎麼解決\n252537\t254478\t中小企業來跟我買電打的契約沒有用,怎麼辦?\n271888\t289609\t他也可以賣給,我們可能會去撮合一下所以你們希望用電價分級的方式來處理,是這個目的嗎?是最近就是說你們希望把綠電、一般電、低碳電分開來需要綠電的去買你中小企業就算沒有辦法去跟風電業者取得購電契約你都可以透過這個平台來購買,是不是這樣意思?是的\n290069\t317092\t好 那就要明白地說出來不然大家搞不清楚為什麼店家要分級是看我家的用電多寡還是用什麼方式好 往下看所以呢 現在來請教我們國發會的主委我們風光發電機的建設性我們供應機載用電是不是要氫能氫能是我們的一部分一部分 儲能的部分 氫能很重要對好 那你目前台灣的氫能除了儲能之外還有待發展的空間各部會怎麼去做\n319515\t345934\t我們目前除了這個這個儲能的部分以外我們其實跟中研院現在也會跟他有一些計畫做來濾清的發展那另外其實我們最近也在探尋地熱因為菲律賓就已經有一點多Gigawatt已經在運轉的地熱所以這些都是多元利能是我們現在在探尋的方向您說得很好多元利能這是我搜尋到的上一頁包括電解海水去置清包括把天然氣轉成濾清或燃濾清\n347535\t363576\t以及我們要燃料電池作為儲能設備的重要基礎。」所以國科委也要盤點這些技術了,是嗎?所以未來氫能的發展和技術補助要從基礎設施切入,有沒有大幅擴大民生需求,有沒有具體的計畫?\n365078\t382166\t目前我們這個部分因為它的成本比較高我們還是在實驗階段但是只是預備否未來比較長期的發展好 最後再請郭部長請經濟部能夠盤點未來國際企業及台廠需求就符合R1-100再生能源供給是否足夠\n382745\t407278\t提出一個符合R100增增能源的商業模式評估可以嗎?可以就是商業模式我剛剛講到了小企業買不到電你有商業模式怎麼樣讓他買得到綠電第二個那請國發會研議未達成2050淨零碳對不起淨血錯了能源結構的轉化行政院推動氣能產業的部會分工部會有分工可以提出來評估後給本席嗎?沒問題好謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝\n","txt":"接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做巡檔10分鐘 謝謝主席在場的委員先進列席的正午江蘇黨官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們國發會劉主委和經濟部郭部長請兩位 謝謝\n主委好部長好來先請教部長部長最近你很紅我們提到AI它的應用跟生產耗能大不只它的製造它的硬體的運作跟冷卻用電需求量很大那這裡有一個綠色民主是指出我們台灣到2023的工業耗電佔了55%那到了這個台積電它的半導體產業到2021年到2030年要增加兩倍多是不是這樣子\n那這麼大的數量我們來看一下當然是這麼多的半導體產業台積電要蓋7座3奈米預估到2030年台積電用電占全台六分之一經濟部有把握嗎有有把握好那你還告訴他一個好消息因為這個各縣市首長都在搶回答你說沒有關係沒有關係2030年至少還有10座的資料中心要建置對不對大家趕快去分那請問一下這10座資料中心耗不耗能用不用電\n耗能與用電那好 那請教一下那就是為了滿足未來半導體製造還有人工智慧的硬體運作及冷卻需求你們有對未來的用電需求做了評估了嗎有那也知道要怎麼樣去把目前的供電提高到未來的滿足對未來的需求有做了一個計畫了嗎有做這樣的這個假設了好 那我就開始來問一下了\n2030年您是說不會缺電除非明年起AI用電暴增我這個不太清楚去年我們國家台灣大概用了2821度多的電那其中的再生能源占了大概267億多大概占比大概9%是這樣子那請問到了2030年你預估台灣的用電需求要多少2030年台灣需要用到多少電我聽說是3400億度是這樣嗎\n數字正確吧是那這當中的綠電要多少綠電需求我們的規劃是30%30%大概就是408億度的電好 那要從不到300億度要增大到400億度那怎麼來呢 我們往下看那目前國際企業要求RE100供應內要100%的綠能那這其中的綠能有1、2、3、4、5你覺得台灣都有具備嗎\n目前生智能是比較少的有潛力風光不錯水利在發展當中那有包含核電嗎\nR100R100沒有包含所以其實大家要關心的未來因應台灣的產業的外銷需求我們需要的綠電不包含核電英文過第三次了接下來那請問你估計國際企業在台灣建制數據中心及高科技產業的廠商要合乎R100的再生能源需求未來的綠電供應足夠了嗎你如何來提高這些綠電滿足他們的需求報告委員經過我們的盤算是足夠的足夠那有什麼手段嗎\n我們會把綠電需求的廠商我們就給他綠電那不需要綠電的廠商我們就給他其他的綠電綠電不夠賣目前那要買綠電買不到那目前有一個說法說1000度的綠電被台階拿走900度了中小企業買不到為什麼\n這是在過去啦那報告委員這是我來了以後我們現在馬上要成立一個綠電平台是所以我想這些中小企業都買得到好 那我們來往下看其實呢大廠購電的合約可以讓風光業者、風電業者去融資這您知道吧目前光電、風電它需要很大的融資嘛是所以這些購電契約它可能用專融資你知道為什麼中小企業拿不到這個購電契約嗎因為銀行不同意貸款那怎麼解決\n中小企業來跟我買電打的契約沒有用,怎麼辦?\n他也可以賣給,我們可能會去撮合一下所以你們希望用電價分級的方式來處理,是這個目的嗎?是最近就是說你們希望把綠電、一般電、低碳電分開來需要綠電的去買你中小企業就算沒有辦法去跟風電業者取得購電契約你都可以透過這個平台來購買,是不是這樣意思?是的\n好 那就要明白地說出來不然大家搞不清楚為什麼店家要分級是看我家的用電多寡還是用什麼方式好 往下看所以呢 現在來請教我們國發會的主委我們風光發電機的建設性我們供應機載用電是不是要氫能氫能是我們的一部分一部分 儲能的部分 氫能很重要對好 那你目前台灣的氫能除了儲能之外還有待發展的空間各部會怎麼去做\n我們目前除了這個這個儲能的部分以外我們其實跟中研院現在也會跟他有一些計畫做來濾清的發展那另外其實我們最近也在探尋地熱因為菲律賓就已經有一點多Gigawatt已經在運轉的地熱所以這些都是多元利能是我們現在在探尋的方向您說得很好多元利能這是我搜尋到的上一頁包括電解海水去置清包括把天然氣轉成濾清或燃濾清\n以及我們要燃料電池作為儲能設備的重要基礎。」所以國科委也要盤點這些技術了,是嗎?所以未來氫能的發展和技術補助要從基礎設施切入,有沒有大幅擴大民生需求,有沒有具體的計畫?\n目前我們這個部分因為它的成本比較高我們還是在實驗階段但是只是預備否未來比較長期的發展好 最後再請郭部長請經濟部能夠盤點未來國際企業及台廠需求就符合R1-100再生能源供給是否足夠\n提出一個符合R100增增能源的商業模式評估可以嗎?可以就是商業模式我剛剛講到了小企業買不到電你有商業模式怎麼樣讓他買得到綠電第二個那請國發會研議未達成2050淨零碳對不起淨血錯了能源結構的轉化行政院推動氣能產業的部會分工部會有分工可以提出來評估後給本席嗎?沒問題好謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:18.740\n接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做巡檔10分鐘謝謝主席在場的委員先進列席的正午江蘇黨官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們國發會劉主委和經濟部郭部長請兩位謝謝\n\n00:26.604 --> 00:45.801\n主委好部長好來先請教部長部長最近你很紅我們提到AI它的應用跟生產耗能大不只它的製造它的硬體的運作跟冷卻用電需求量很大那這裡有一個綠色民主是指出我們台灣到2023的工業耗電佔了55%那到了這個台積電它的半導體產業到2021年到2030年要增加兩倍多是不是這樣子\n\n00:55.049 --> 01:23.665\n那這麼大的數量我們來看一下當然是這麼多的半導體產業台積電要蓋7座3奈米預估到2030年台積電用電占全台六分之一經濟部有把握嗎有有把握好那你還告訴他一個好消息因為這個各縣市首長都在搶回答你說沒有關係沒有關係2030年至少還有10座的資料中心要建置對不對大家趕快去分那請問一下這10座資料中心耗不耗能用不用電\n\n01:24.804 --> 01:44.454\n耗能與用電那好那請教一下那就是為了滿足未來半導體製造還有人工智慧的硬體運作及冷卻需求你們有對未來的用電需求做了評估了嗎有那也知道要怎麼樣去把目前的供電提高到未來的滿足對未來的需求有做了一個計畫了嗎有做這樣的這個假設了好那我就開始來問一下了\n\n01:45.655 --> 02:10.955\n2030年您是說不會缺電除非明年起AI用電暴增我這個不太清楚去年我們國家台灣大概用了2821度多的電那其中的再生能源占了大概267億多大概占比大概9%是這樣子那請問到了2030年你預估台灣的用電需求要多少2030年台灣需要用到多少電我聽說是3400億度是這樣嗎\n\n02:13.840 --> 02:38.580\n數字正確吧是那這當中的綠電要多少綠電需求我們的規劃是30%30%大概就是408億度的電好那要從不到300億度要增大到400億度那怎麼來呢我們往下看那目前國際企業要求RE100供應內要100%的綠能那這其中的綠能有1、2、3、4、5你覺得台灣都有具備嗎\n\n02:40.919 --> 02:49.516\n目前生智能是比較少的有潛力風光不錯水利在發展當中那有包含核電嗎\n\n02:51.840 --> 03:19.568\nR100R100沒有包含所以其實大家要關心的未來因應台灣的產業的外銷需求我們需要的綠電不包含核電英文過第三次了接下來那請問你估計國際企業在台灣建制數據中心及高科技產業的廠商要合乎R100的再生能源需求未來的綠電供應足夠了嗎你如何來提高這些綠電滿足他們的需求報告委員經過我們的盤算是足夠的足夠那有什麼手段嗎\n\n03:21.209 --> 03:41.301\n我們會把綠電需求的廠商我們就給他綠電那不需要綠電的廠商我們就給他其他的綠電綠電不夠賣目前那要買綠電買不到那目前有一個說法說1000度的綠電被台階拿走900度了中小企業買不到為什麼\n\n03:43.212 --> 04:10.482\n這是在過去啦那報告委員這是我來了以後我們現在馬上要成立一個綠電平台是所以我想這些中小企業都買得到好那我們來往下看其實呢大廠購電的合約可以讓風光業者、風電業者去融資這您知道吧目前光電、風電它需要很大的融資嘛是所以這些購電契約它可能用專融資你知道為什麼中小企業拿不到這個購電契約嗎因為銀行不同意貸款那怎麼解決\n\n04:12.537 --> 04:14.478\n中小企業來跟我買電打的契約沒有用,怎麼辦?\n\n04:31.888 --> 04:49.609\n他也可以賣給,我們可能會去撮合一下所以你們希望用電價分級的方式來處理,是這個目的嗎?是最近就是說你們希望把綠電、一般電、低碳電分開來需要綠電的去買你中小企業就算沒有辦法去跟風電業者取得購電契約你都可以透過這個平台來購買,是不是這樣意思?是的\n\n04:50.069 --> 05:17.092\n好那就要明白地說出來不然大家搞不清楚為什麼店家要分級是看我家的用電多寡還是用什麼方式好往下看所以呢現在來請教我們國發會的主委我們風光發電機的建設性我們供應機載用電是不是要氫能氫能是我們的一部分一部分儲能的部分氫能很重要對好那你目前台灣的氫能除了儲能之外還有待發展的空間各部會怎麼去做\n\n05:19.515 --> 05:45.934\n我們目前除了這個這個儲能的部分以外我們其實跟中研院現在也會跟他有一些計畫做來濾清的發展那另外其實我們最近也在探尋地熱因為菲律賓就已經有一點多Gigawatt已經在運轉的地熱所以這些都是多元利能是我們現在在探尋的方向您說得很好多元利能這是我搜尋到的上一頁包括電解海水去置清包括把天然氣轉成濾清或燃濾清\n\n05:47.535 --> 06:03.576\n以及我們要燃料電池作為儲能設備的重要基礎。」所以國科委也要盤點這些技術了,是嗎?所以未來氫能的發展和技術補助要從基礎設施切入,有沒有大幅擴大民生需求,有沒有具體的計畫?\n\n06:05.078 --> 06:22.166\n目前我們這個部分因為它的成本比較高我們還是在實驗階段但是只是預備否未來比較長期的發展好最後再請郭部長請經濟部能夠盤點未來國際企業及台廠需求就符合R1-100再生能源供給是否足夠\n\n06:22.745 --> 06:47.278\n提出一個符合R100增增能源的商業模式評估可以嗎?可以就是商業模式我剛剛講到了小企業買不到電你有商業模式怎麼樣讓他買得到綠電第二個那請國發會研議未達成2050淨零碳對不起淨血錯了能源結構的轉化行政院推動氣能產業的部會分工部會有分工可以提出來評估後給本席嗎?沒問題好謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":18.74,"text":"接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做巡檔10分鐘 謝謝主席在場的委員先進列席的正午江蘇黨官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們國發會劉主委和經濟部郭部長請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":26.604,"end":45.801,"text":"主委好部長好來先請教部長部長最近你很紅我們提到AI它的應用跟生產耗能大不只它的製造它的硬體的運作跟冷卻用電需求量很大那這裡有一個綠色民主是指出我們台灣到2023的工業耗電佔了55%那到了這個台積電它的半導體產業到2021年到2030年要增加兩倍多是不是這樣子"},{"start":55.049,"end":83.665,"text":"那這麼大的數量我們來看一下當然是這麼多的半導體產業台積電要蓋7座3奈米預估到2030年台積電用電占全台六分之一經濟部有把握嗎有有把握好那你還告訴他一個好消息因為這個各縣市首長都在搶回答你說沒有關係沒有關係2030年至少還有10座的資料中心要建置對不對大家趕快去分那請問一下這10座資料中心耗不耗能用不用電"},{"start":84.804,"end":104.454,"text":"耗能與用電那好 那請教一下那就是為了滿足未來半導體製造還有人工智慧的硬體運作及冷卻需求你們有對未來的用電需求做了評估了嗎有那也知道要怎麼樣去把目前的供電提高到未來的滿足對未來的需求有做了一個計畫了嗎有做這樣的這個假設了好 那我就開始來問一下了"},{"start":105.655,"end":130.955,"text":"2030年您是說不會缺電除非明年起AI用電暴增我這個不太清楚去年我們國家台灣大概用了2821度多的電那其中的再生能源占了大概267億多大概占比大概9%是這樣子那請問到了2030年你預估台灣的用電需求要多少2030年台灣需要用到多少電我聽說是3400億度是這樣嗎"},{"start":133.84,"end":158.58,"text":"數字正確吧是那這當中的綠電要多少綠電需求我們的規劃是30%30%大概就是408億度的電好 那要從不到300億度要增大到400億度那怎麼來呢 我們往下看那目前國際企業要求RE100供應內要100%的綠能那這其中的綠能有1、2、3、4、5你覺得台灣都有具備嗎"},{"start":160.919,"end":169.516,"text":"目前生智能是比較少的有潛力風光不錯水利在發展當中那有包含核電嗎"},{"start":171.84,"end":199.568,"text":"R100R100沒有包含所以其實大家要關心的未來因應台灣的產業的外銷需求我們需要的綠電不包含核電英文過第三次了接下來那請問你估計國際企業在台灣建制數據中心及高科技產業的廠商要合乎R100的再生能源需求未來的綠電供應足夠了嗎你如何來提高這些綠電滿足他們的需求報告委員經過我們的盤算是足夠的足夠那有什麼手段嗎"},{"start":201.209,"end":221.301,"text":"我們會把綠電需求的廠商我們就給他綠電那不需要綠電的廠商我們就給他其他的綠電綠電不夠賣目前那要買綠電買不到那目前有一個說法說1000度的綠電被台階拿走900度了中小企業買不到為什麼"},{"start":223.212,"end":250.482,"text":"這是在過去啦那報告委員這是我來了以後我們現在馬上要成立一個綠電平台是所以我想這些中小企業都買得到好 那我們來往下看其實呢大廠購電的合約可以讓風光業者、風電業者去融資這您知道吧目前光電、風電它需要很大的融資嘛是所以這些購電契約它可能用專融資你知道為什麼中小企業拿不到這個購電契約嗎因為銀行不同意貸款那怎麼解決"},{"start":252.537,"end":254.478,"text":"中小企業來跟我買電打的契約沒有用,怎麼辦?"},{"start":271.888,"end":289.609,"text":"他也可以賣給,我們可能會去撮合一下所以你們希望用電價分級的方式來處理,是這個目的嗎?是最近就是說你們希望把綠電、一般電、低碳電分開來需要綠電的去買你中小企業就算沒有辦法去跟風電業者取得購電契約你都可以透過這個平台來購買,是不是這樣意思?是的"},{"start":290.069,"end":317.092,"text":"好 那就要明白地說出來不然大家搞不清楚為什麼店家要分級是看我家的用電多寡還是用什麼方式好 往下看所以呢 現在來請教我們國發會的主委我們風光發電機的建設性我們供應機載用電是不是要氫能氫能是我們的一部分一部分 儲能的部分 氫能很重要對好 那你目前台灣的氫能除了儲能之外還有待發展的空間各部會怎麼去做"},{"start":319.515,"end":345.934,"text":"我們目前除了這個這個儲能的部分以外我們其實跟中研院現在也會跟他有一些計畫做來濾清的發展那另外其實我們最近也在探尋地熱因為菲律賓就已經有一點多Gigawatt已經在運轉的地熱所以這些都是多元利能是我們現在在探尋的方向您說得很好多元利能這是我搜尋到的上一頁包括電解海水去置清包括把天然氣轉成濾清或燃濾清"},{"start":347.535,"end":363.576,"text":"以及我們要燃料電池作為儲能設備的重要基礎。」所以國科委也要盤點這些技術了,是嗎?所以未來氫能的發展和技術補助要從基礎設施切入,有沒有大幅擴大民生需求,有沒有具體的計畫?"},{"start":365.078,"end":382.166,"text":"目前我們這個部分因為它的成本比較高我們還是在實驗階段但是只是預備否未來比較長期的發展好 最後再請郭部長請經濟部能夠盤點未來國際企業及台廠需求就符合R1-100再生能源供給是否足夠"},{"start":382.745,"end":407.278,"text":"提出一個符合R100增增能源的商業模式評估可以嗎?可以就是商業模式我剛剛講到了小企業買不到電你有商業模式怎麼樣讓他買得到綠電第二個那請國發會研議未達成2050淨零碳對不起淨血錯了能源結構的轉化行政院推動氣能產業的部會分工部會有分工可以提出來評估後給本席嗎?沒問題好謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝"}]}}}}