{"id":153956,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153956","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0e28ce9a02e8b47288ff7e0bc1ebc5021ae5baf1b56d477346248f9d3805023e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:44:41 - 10:52:35","影片長度":"00:07:54","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T10:44:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T10:52:35+08:00","duration":474,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":532,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時44分）好，謝謝主席。警政署長、消防署長有請。"],["主席：麻煩兩位署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：早安，兩位辛苦了！今天大家都對兩位靈魂拷問，為什麼呢？因為大家都希望幫不管是現職的或者是退休的警消同仁爭取更好的生活品質，對不對？那我就單刀直入的直接問了，我們這個警消人員的人事制度，包含考試、教育、訓練、任用、官制、官規、服制、配階、獎懲、考核、考績、陞遷、調度等等，這些人事制度的法源依據是什麼？警政署長請回答。"],["張署長榮興：警察人員人事條例。"],["牛委員煦庭：消防署長請回答。"],["蕭署長煥章：我們包括一般公務人員跟消防人員，所以消防人員……"],["牛委員煦庭：有消防人事條例對不對？"],["蕭署長煥章：還沒，是用警察人員人事條例。"],["牛委員煦庭：也是用警察人事條例？"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以都是有特別法來做規範，對不對？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們兩個體系的人都有。"],["牛委員煦庭：他其實有不同於一般公務員體系的規範，對不對？好，這是第一個。第二個，我想請問兩位署長，請輪流回答，這個警消的人事制度為什麼要自成體系，然後有別於一般的公教人員，為什麼？"],["張署長榮興：因為他們工作的特殊性，跟一般公務人員是不一樣的。"],["牛委員煦庭：舉幾個例子。"],["張署長榮興：就是在工作、在執行勤務時，是24小時都不休息的，而且是採輪班制，所以跟一般公務人員上下班是不一樣的。"],["牛委員煦庭：是不一樣的，消防署長，你覺得呢？"],["蕭署長煥章：消防人員也是全時待命，我們是要經過專業的訓練才能夠具有這個資格。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯嘛！所以到目前為止其實已經講了非常非常多不一樣的地方，那我就繼續往下問，關於我們警消人員的勞動條件，其實剛剛兩位已經講得差不多了，包含工時、休息、休假、加班等等制度，有跟一般公務人員的制度一樣嗎？"],["張署長榮興：是不一樣的。"],["牛委員煦庭：非常不一樣，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對，非常不一樣，因為有一些是特殊任務，有一些可能要停止休假，有一些可能就是剛剛所講的相關勤務制度完全都不同。"],["牛委員煦庭：會有勤務調整，那消防方面呢？"],["張署長榮興：是，感謝委員，我們在釋字785號解釋出來以後，整個勤務大幅地降低外勤同仁的負擔，所以目前勤務已經趨向於正常化的處理，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：即使趨向正常化，恐怕也不可能跟一般公教人員一樣，公教人員下班就下班了，可是如果有地方起火了，消防隊就是要出勤，基本上，簡單來說，你就是有值勤、備勤制度，而且在遇到緊急狀況的時候就要召回，對不對？就是大家要取消休假，所以講到目前為止，其實不一樣的地方越來越多了。那我再接著問，我要特別問一下警政署署長，行政程序法第十九條講的是什麼？因為我是突然問，你不一定有概念，沒關係，我不為難你，我直接show給署長看，我為什麼要寫出這一條？因為不管是警察或消防，其實都是基層同仁……"],["張署長榮興：這個是職務協助的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯，第十九條規定：「行政機關為發揮共同一體之行政機能，應於其權限範圍內互相協助。」寫得真好，行政一體，互相幫忙。"],["張署長榮興：職務協助。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二項是規定：「行政機關執行職務時，得向無隸屬關係之其他機關請求協助。」我要跟兩位署長說明的是，基本上，在行政程序法第十九條訂立之後，警消的基層同仁相對來說是付出最多、最辛苦的基層人員，兩位署長同意嗎？"],["張署長榮興：同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：同意對不對？來，舉幾個例子，警察對哪些事情做了協勤？"],["張署長榮興：像在防疫期間我們警察還要去做這些防疫所的警戒，或者是在一些縣市政府舉辦活動時要去做維持交通安全的勤務，或者是對很多單位都會去做協助。"],["牛委員煦庭：比如說，為防堵非洲豬瘟要對關務協助調查，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對，像非洲豬瘟也是會協助這些相關勤務。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這些事務的主管機關，不管是衛福部、其他機關或機場關務的處理，都會要求無隸屬關係的警政署來提供勤務協助，對不對？在消防方面有沒有幾個例子？"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員還有委員會這邊對消防的關心，這幾年我們一直在檢討怎麼簡化我們消防人員的勤務，包括捕蜂捉蛇，很感謝……"],["牛委員煦庭：捕蜂捉蛇對不對？我就是想講捕蜂捉蛇，即便你努力地想要簡化，但是還是有若干地方沒辦法，因為這個東西是灰色地帶，你們是最有專業、能力也最好的消防人員，所以請你們擔待、請你們幫忙。所以我們今天提這個東西的概念就是基層警消就是行政程序法第十九條裡面擔負最多責任的，這個也是不同於一般的公教人員。","再來，我要再問勞動安全的部分，工時風險、工時的責任有跟一般公務人員相同嗎？"],["張署長榮興：不相同。"],["牛委員煦庭：非常不相同，你看今天我問的問題都非常簡單，對不對？答案也都一樣，對不對？是非題的答案全部都是X，對不對？我問是否相同，答案是全部不相同，為什麼不相同？因為時間有限，我們就直接講，我先以警察為例子，剛剛我還臨時加了一下消防的，在2017年到2023年近7年的總計，我們警察同仁不幸因公殉職的有65人，因公受傷是6,037人，全體軍公教因公殉職者是229人，光是警察就占全體軍公教因公殉職的28%；消防人員殉職人數是19人，如果把消防人員加進去，這個比率會變成36.6%，達三分之一以上。在2023年以警察為例，人數是6萬8,724人，全國公務人員人數是三十六萬多人，軍人是二十一萬多人，軍公教人數是七十六萬多人，警察的人數占軍公教全體人數8%，但是因公殉職比率是28%；加了消防，占全體人數的比率大概不會超過10%，但是因公殉職的比率高達36.6%。所以不管是警察或者是消防同仁工作的風險、職場安全的壓力也明顯地高於一般的公務人員，目前講到這裡為止，應該沒有問題對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對，沒有問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有問題喔！署長不錯，很阿莎力！兩位署長認不認同基於不同的待遇，我們常常講我們不要齊頭式平等，因為齊頭式平等的平等是假平等，假平等就是真不公啊！兩位署長是否認同既有的人事制度體系不同於現有的公務體系，同意嗎？"],["張署長榮興：同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你們剛剛都回答了，那麼退休制度應不應該做一點合理的差別待遇，來達成所謂的立足點的平等？"],["張署長榮興：我們來努力啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：你們來努力，消防署要不要努力一下？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們來努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們來努力，好，就本席的看法，我認為現行的退休制度跟待遇是叫齊頭式平等，不叫立足點的平等，所以你們兩位當然應該努力，我們也希望在下面聽的各個單位，尤其是銓敘部，你也要稍微思考一下吧！我們剛剛所有講的都是講道理啊！對不對？","因為時間到了，我們不耽誤後面的程序，我們今天還要審查法條，我們不耽誤審查的時間，我們希望這個社會享受警消人員帶給我們的安全、和平跟穩定的生活，最苦的差事都是由這群人來做，我希望國家社會善待這一群人，不管是在職或者是退休，總要給他們一點尊嚴，不要讓社會大眾繼續去污名化這一群人，我想這是大家一起要共同努力的目標。民進黨其實滿多政治人物也都私底下講，像來自桃園、本席選區的前市長鄭文燦先生也講過，年改是一個失敗的社會溝通，我們希望新的政府上臺之後能夠痛定思痛、重新檢討，基於各個勤務實際上的差別來達成立足點的真平等，這是本席的政策建議，希望今天在座的大家好好思考、好好討論。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位我們請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"id":"153956","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153956","tool":"pyannote","id":"153956-pyannote"},"job_id":"K6ORKh27tl15I67b","queued_at":"2024-06-13 12:22:31","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-13 12:24:32","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153956"},{"time":"2024-06-13 12:24:33","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0e28ce9a02e8b47288ff7e0bc1ebc50211d141634ad16f55f6b63852e99275fcc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-13 12:25:16","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-13 12:25:17","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-13 12:25:27","msg":"status: 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00:01:39,905\n警察人員人事條例三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議\n\n7\n00:02:02,734 --> 00:02:02,874\n二）委員\n\n8\n00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:46,923\n感謝委員我們在七八五號解釋函以後整個起舞整個大埔的降低外勤同仁的負擔所以目前這個起舞已經趨向於正常化的一個處理謝謝趨向正常化恐怕也不可能跟一般公教人員一樣啦而公教人員下班就下班了消防隊起火了就是要出勤嘛基本上簡單來說你就是有執勤備勤制度嘛而且遇到緊急狀況的時候你要召回嘛對不對大家這個要取消休假\n\n9\n00:02:47,523 --> 00:03:15,769\n所以講到目前為止其實不一樣的地方越來越多了那我再接著問這一點我特別問一下警察署署長行政程序法第19條講的是什麼?突然問不一定有概念沒關係我不為難你來直接秀給署長看我為什麼要寫這一條這個是不管是警察或消防其實都是基層同仁行政的背景這個是職務協助的問題沒錯行政機關為發揮共同一體行政機能與全縣範圍內互相協助寫得真好\n\n10\n00:03:16,069 --> 00:03:31,134\n事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員\n\n11\n00:03:31,414 --> 00:03:59,835\n相對來說付出最多、最辛苦的基層人員。」兩位署長同意嗎?同意。同意對不對?來舉幾個例子來警察我們都哪些事情做了協定?比如講像在防疫的期間啊防疫期間我們警察還要去做這些防疫所的這個警戒啦或者是其他這一些這個縣市政府的這一些辦的活動要去維持他們的交通安全的勤務啦或者是或者是不錯啦很多單位都\n\n12\n00:04:00,936 --> 00:04:06,464\n例如說非洲豬瘟官務要協助調查等等所以這些的主管機關不管是衛福部會或是其他機關或警察機場的官務處理都會要求無隸屬關係的警政署來提供警務協助來消防有沒有幾個例子\n\n13\n00:04:18,243 --> 00:04:34,477\n感謝委員還有委員會這邊對消防的關心這幾年我們一直在檢討怎麼簡化我們消防軍的輕物包括捕蜂捉蛇很感謝捕蜂捉蛇嘛對不對我就想講捕蜂捉蛇即便您努力的想要講簡化對不對但是還是有若干的地方基於\n\n14\n00:04:35,157 --> 00:04:49,751\n沒辦法這個東西是灰色地帶最有專業能力也最好的消防科請你們擔待請你們幫忙所以我們今天提這個東西的概念就是基層警消就是行政程序法第19條裡面擔負最多責任這個也同樣不同於一般的公教人員再來\n\n15\n00:04:50,552 --> 00:05:06,822\n我要再問勞動安全的部分公實風險公實的責任有跟一般公務員相同嗎?不相同非常不相同對不對你看今天我問題都非常簡單對不對答案也都一樣對不對是非題全部都差對不對是否相同全部不相同為什麼不相同一樣\n\n16\n00:05:07,222 --> 00:05:31,754\n因為時間有限我們就直接講這我先以警察為例子剛剛我還臨時加了一下消防的2017年到2023年近7年的總計我們的警察同仁不幸因公殉職了65人因公受傷6037人全體軍公教因為因公殉職者229人光是警察佔全體軍公教因公殉職28%消防人員殉職人員19人\n\n17\n00:05:34,835 --> 00:06:03,354\n如果把消防人員加進去這個比例會變百分之三十六點六三分之一以上那麼2023年以警察為例人數六萬八千七百二十四人全國公務員人數三十六萬多人軍人二十一萬多人軍公教人數七十六萬多人警察的人數佔軍公教全體人數百分之八但是因公殉職比例百分之二十八加了消防這個全體人數比例大概不會超過百分之十但因公殉職的比例高達百分之三十六點六\n\n18\n00:06:04,315 --> 00:06:18,940\n所以不管是警察或者是消防同仁工作的風險職場的安全的壓力也明顯的高於一般的公務人員這樣目前講到為止應該沒有問題對不對對沒有問題沒有問題喔署長不錯阿莎莉\n\n19\n00:06:19,875 --> 00:06:47,429\n那麼兩位署長認不認同基於不同的待遇啊我們常常講我們不要齊頭式平等齊頭式平等的平等是假平等假平等就是徵不公啊兩位署長是否認同藉由的人事制度體系不同於現有的公務體系同意嗎同意對你們剛剛都回答了嘛那麼退休制度應不應該做一點合理的差別待遇啊來達成所謂的立足點的平等我們來努力啦你們來努力消防組要不要努力一下\n\n20\n00:06:48,427 --> 00:06:48,547\n二）委員\n\n21\n00:07:07,530 --> 00:07:22,137\n時間到了我們不耽誤後面今天要審查法條我們不耽誤審查的時間我們希望我們這個社會享受警察人員帶給我們的安全和平跟穩定的生活最苦的差事都是由這一群人來做我希望這個國家社會善待這一群人不管是在職\n\n22\n00:07:22,757 --> 00:07:26,699\n條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一．一）委員\n\n23\n00:07:44,807 --> 00:07:53,997\n基於各個情務的實際上的差別來達成立足點的真平等。」這是本席的政策建議希望今天在座的大家好好思考好好討論以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3854\t7160\t好謝謝主席警政署長消防署長有請麻煩兩位署長\n17779\t40601\t委員早安兩位辛苦了今天大家都對兩位靈魂拷問為什麼因為大家都希望幫不管是現職的或者是退休的警消同仁爭取剛好的生活品質對不對那我就單刀直舞我就直接問我們這個警消人員的人事制度包含考試教育訓練任用\n42142\t54637\t官制、官規、福祉、配階、獎懲、考核、考期、升遷、調度等這些的人事制度法源依據是什麼?警政署長請回答警察人事條例來消防署長請回答我們包括一般公務員跟消防員有消防人事條例對不對還沒\n61585\t62145\t警察人員人事條例\n81112\t81192\t二）委員\n98364\t99905\t警察人員人事條例三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議\n122734\t122874\t二）委員\n141520\t166923\t感謝委員我們在七八五號解釋函以後整個起舞整個大埔的降低外勤同仁的負擔所以目前這個起舞已經趨向於正常化的一個處理謝謝趨向正常化恐怕也不可能跟一般公教人員一樣啦而公教人員下班就下班了消防隊起火了就是要出勤嘛基本上簡單來說你就是有執勤備勤制度嘛而且遇到緊急狀況的時候你要召回嘛對不對大家這個要取消休假\n167523\t195769\t所以講到目前為止其實不一樣的地方越來越多了那我再接著問這一點我特別問一下警察署署長行政程序法第19條講的是什麼?突然問不一定有概念沒關係我不為難你來直接秀給署長看我為什麼要寫這一條這個是不管是警察或消防其實都是基層同仁行政的背景這個是職務協助的問題沒錯行政機關為發揮共同一體行政機能與全縣範圍內互相協助寫得真好\n196069\t211134\t事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員\n211414\t239835\t相對來說付出最多、最辛苦的基層人員。」兩位署長同意嗎?同意。同意對不對?來舉幾個例子來警察我們都哪些事情做了協定?比如講像在防疫的期間啊防疫期間我們警察還要去做這些防疫所的這個警戒啦或者是其他這一些這個縣市政府的這一些辦的活動要去維持他們的交通安全的勤務啦或者是或者是不錯啦很多單位都\n240936\t246464\t例如說非洲豬瘟官務要協助調查等等所以這些的主管機關不管是衛福部會或是其他機關或警察機場的官務處理都會要求無隸屬關係的警政署來提供警務協助來消防有沒有幾個例子\n258243\t274477\t感謝委員還有委員會這邊對消防的關心這幾年我們一直在檢討怎麼簡化我們消防軍的輕物包括捕蜂捉蛇很感謝捕蜂捉蛇嘛對不對我就想講捕蜂捉蛇即便您努力的想要講簡化對不對但是還是有若干的地方基於\n275157\t289751\t沒辦法這個東西是灰色地帶最有專業能力也最好的消防科請你們擔待請你們幫忙所以我們今天提這個東西的概念就是基層警消就是行政程序法第19條裡面擔負最多責任這個也同樣不同於一般的公教人員再來\n290552\t306822\t我要再問勞動安全的部分公實風險公實的責任有跟一般公務員相同嗎?不相同非常不相同對不對你看今天我問題都非常簡單對不對答案也都一樣對不對是非題全部都差對不對是否相同全部不相同為什麼不相同一樣\n307222\t331754\t因為時間有限我們就直接講這我先以警察為例子剛剛我還臨時加了一下消防的2017年到2023年近7年的總計我們的警察同仁不幸因公殉職了65人因公受傷6037人全體軍公教因為因公殉職者229人光是警察佔全體軍公教因公殉職28%消防人員殉職人員19人\n334835\t363354\t如果把消防人員加進去這個比例會變百分之三十六點六三分之一以上那麼2023年以警察為例人數六萬八千七百二十四人全國公務員人數三十六萬多人軍人二十一萬多人軍公教人數七十六萬多人警察的人數佔軍公教全體人數百分之八但是因公殉職比例百分之二十八加了消防這個全體人數比例大概不會超過百分之十但因公殉職的比例高達百分之三十六點六\n364315\t378940\t所以不管是警察或者是消防同仁工作的風險職場的安全的壓力也明顯的高於一般的公務人員這樣目前講到為止應該沒有問題對不對對沒有問題沒有問題喔 署長不錯阿莎莉\n379875\t407429\t那麼兩位署長認不認同基於不同的待遇啊我們常常講我們不要齊頭式平等齊頭式平等的平等是假平等假平等就是徵不公啊兩位署長是否認同藉由的人事制度體系不同於現有的公務體系同意嗎同意對你們剛剛都回答了嘛那麼退休制度應不應該做一點合理的差別待遇啊來達成所謂的立足點的平等我們來努力啦你們來努力消防組要不要努力一下\n408427\t408547\t二）委員\n427530\t442137\t時間到了我們不耽誤後面今天要審查法條我們不耽誤審查的時間我們希望我們這個社會享受警察人員帶給我們的安全和平跟穩定的生活最苦的差事都是由這一群人來做我希望這個國家社會善待這一群人不管是在職\n442757\t446699\t條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一．一）委員\n464807\t473997\t基於各個情務的實際上的差別來達成立足點的真平等。」這是本席的政策建議希望今天在座的大家好好思考好好討論以上謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席警政署長消防署長有請麻煩兩位署長\n委員早安兩位辛苦了今天大家都對兩位靈魂拷問為什麼因為大家都希望幫不管是現職的或者是退休的警消同仁爭取剛好的生活品質對不對那我就單刀直舞我就直接問我們這個警消人員的人事制度包含考試教育訓練任用\n官制、官規、福祉、配階、獎懲、考核、考期、升遷、調度等這些的人事制度法源依據是什麼?警政署長請回答警察人事條例來消防署長請回答我們包括一般公務員跟消防員有消防人事條例對不對還沒\n警察人員人事條例\n二）委員\n警察人員人事條例三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議\n二）委員\n感謝委員我們在七八五號解釋函以後整個起舞整個大埔的降低外勤同仁的負擔所以目前這個起舞已經趨向於正常化的一個處理謝謝趨向正常化恐怕也不可能跟一般公教人員一樣啦而公教人員下班就下班了消防隊起火了就是要出勤嘛基本上簡單來說你就是有執勤備勤制度嘛而且遇到緊急狀況的時候你要召回嘛對不對大家這個要取消休假\n所以講到目前為止其實不一樣的地方越來越多了那我再接著問這一點我特別問一下警察署署長行政程序法第19條講的是什麼?突然問不一定有概念沒關係我不為難你來直接秀給署長看我為什麼要寫這一條這個是不管是警察或消防其實都是基層同仁行政的背景這個是職務協助的問題沒錯行政機關為發揮共同一體行政機能與全縣範圍內互相協助寫得真好\n事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員\n相對來說付出最多、最辛苦的基層人員。」兩位署長同意嗎?同意。同意對不對?來舉幾個例子來警察我們都哪些事情做了協定?比如講像在防疫的期間啊防疫期間我們警察還要去做這些防疫所的這個警戒啦或者是其他這一些這個縣市政府的這一些辦的活動要去維持他們的交通安全的勤務啦或者是或者是不錯啦很多單位都\n例如說非洲豬瘟官務要協助調查等等所以這些的主管機關不管是衛福部會或是其他機關或警察機場的官務處理都會要求無隸屬關係的警政署來提供警務協助來消防有沒有幾個例子\n感謝委員還有委員會這邊對消防的關心這幾年我們一直在檢討怎麼簡化我們消防軍的輕物包括捕蜂捉蛇很感謝捕蜂捉蛇嘛對不對我就想講捕蜂捉蛇即便您努力的想要講簡化對不對但是還是有若干的地方基於\n沒辦法這個東西是灰色地帶最有專業能力也最好的消防科請你們擔待請你們幫忙所以我們今天提這個東西的概念就是基層警消就是行政程序法第19條裡面擔負最多責任這個也同樣不同於一般的公教人員再來\n我要再問勞動安全的部分公實風險公實的責任有跟一般公務員相同嗎?不相同非常不相同對不對你看今天我問題都非常簡單對不對答案也都一樣對不對是非題全部都差對不對是否相同全部不相同為什麼不相同一樣\n因為時間有限我們就直接講這我先以警察為例子剛剛我還臨時加了一下消防的2017年到2023年近7年的總計我們的警察同仁不幸因公殉職了65人因公受傷6037人全體軍公教因為因公殉職者229人光是警察佔全體軍公教因公殉職28%消防人員殉職人員19人\n如果把消防人員加進去這個比例會變百分之三十六點六三分之一以上那麼2023年以警察為例人數六萬八千七百二十四人全國公務員人數三十六萬多人軍人二十一萬多人軍公教人數七十六萬多人警察的人數佔軍公教全體人數百分之八但是因公殉職比例百分之二十八加了消防這個全體人數比例大概不會超過百分之十但因公殉職的比例高達百分之三十六點六\n所以不管是警察或者是消防同仁工作的風險職場的安全的壓力也明顯的高於一般的公務人員這樣目前講到為止應該沒有問題對不對對沒有問題沒有問題喔 署長不錯阿莎莉\n那麼兩位署長認不認同基於不同的待遇啊我們常常講我們不要齊頭式平等齊頭式平等的平等是假平等假平等就是徵不公啊兩位署長是否認同藉由的人事制度體系不同於現有的公務體系同意嗎同意對你們剛剛都回答了嘛那麼退休制度應不應該做一點合理的差別待遇啊來達成所謂的立足點的平等我們來努力啦你們來努力消防組要不要努力一下\n二）委員\n時間到了我們不耽誤後面今天要審查法條我們不耽誤審查的時間我們希望我們這個社會享受警察人員帶給我們的安全和平跟穩定的生活最苦的差事都是由這一群人來做我希望這個國家社會善待這一群人不管是在職\n條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一．一）委員\n基於各個情務的實際上的差別來達成立足點的真平等。」這是本席的政策建議希望今天在座的大家好好思考好好討論以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.854 --> 00:07.160\n好謝謝主席警政署長消防署長有請麻煩兩位署長\n\n00:17.779 --> 00:40.601\n委員早安兩位辛苦了今天大家都對兩位靈魂拷問為什麼因為大家都希望幫不管是現職的或者是退休的警消同仁爭取剛好的生活品質對不對那我就單刀直舞我就直接問我們這個警消人員的人事制度包含考試教育訓練任用\n\n00:42.142 --> 00:54.637\n官制、官規、福祉、配階、獎懲、考核、考期、升遷、調度等這些的人事制度法源依據是什麼?警政署長請回答警察人事條例來消防署長請回答我們包括一般公務員跟消防員有消防人事條例對不對還沒\n\n01:01.585 --> 01:02.145\n警察人員人事條例\n\n01:21.112 --> 01:21.192\n二）委員\n\n01:38.364 --> 01:39.905\n警察人員人事條例三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議\n\n02:02.734 --> 02:02.874\n二）委員\n\n02:21.520 --> 02:46.923\n感謝委員我們在七八五號解釋函以後整個起舞整個大埔的降低外勤同仁的負擔所以目前這個起舞已經趨向於正常化的一個處理謝謝趨向正常化恐怕也不可能跟一般公教人員一樣啦而公教人員下班就下班了消防隊起火了就是要出勤嘛基本上簡單來說你就是有執勤備勤制度嘛而且遇到緊急狀況的時候你要召回嘛對不對大家這個要取消休假\n\n02:47.523 --> 03:15.769\n所以講到目前為止其實不一樣的地方越來越多了那我再接著問這一點我特別問一下警察署署長行政程序法第19條講的是什麼?突然問不一定有概念沒關係我不為難你來直接秀給署長看我為什麼要寫這一條這個是不管是警察或消防其實都是基層同仁行政的背景這個是職務協助的問題沒錯行政機關為發揮共同一體行政機能與全縣範圍內互相協助寫得真好\n\n03:16.069 --> 03:31.134\n事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員\n\n03:31.414 --> 03:59.835\n相對來說付出最多、最辛苦的基層人員。」兩位署長同意嗎?同意。同意對不對?來舉幾個例子來警察我們都哪些事情做了協定?比如講像在防疫的期間啊防疫期間我們警察還要去做這些防疫所的這個警戒啦或者是其他這一些這個縣市政府的這一些辦的活動要去維持他們的交通安全的勤務啦或者是或者是不錯啦很多單位都\n\n04:00.936 --> 04:06.464\n例如說非洲豬瘟官務要協助調查等等所以這些的主管機關不管是衛福部會或是其他機關或警察機場的官務處理都會要求無隸屬關係的警政署來提供警務協助來消防有沒有幾個例子\n\n04:18.243 --> 04:34.477\n感謝委員還有委員會這邊對消防的關心這幾年我們一直在檢討怎麼簡化我們消防軍的輕物包括捕蜂捉蛇很感謝捕蜂捉蛇嘛對不對我就想講捕蜂捉蛇即便您努力的想要講簡化對不對但是還是有若干的地方基於\n\n04:35.157 --> 04:49.751\n沒辦法這個東西是灰色地帶最有專業能力也最好的消防科請你們擔待請你們幫忙所以我們今天提這個東西的概念就是基層警消就是行政程序法第19條裡面擔負最多責任這個也同樣不同於一般的公教人員再來\n\n04:50.552 --> 05:06.822\n我要再問勞動安全的部分公實風險公實的責任有跟一般公務員相同嗎?不相同非常不相同對不對你看今天我問題都非常簡單對不對答案也都一樣對不對是非題全部都差對不對是否相同全部不相同為什麼不相同一樣\n\n05:07.222 --> 05:31.754\n因為時間有限我們就直接講這我先以警察為例子剛剛我還臨時加了一下消防的2017年到2023年近7年的總計我們的警察同仁不幸因公殉職了65人因公受傷6037人全體軍公教因為因公殉職者229人光是警察佔全體軍公教因公殉職28%消防人員殉職人員19人\n\n05:34.835 --> 06:03.354\n如果把消防人員加進去這個比例會變百分之三十六點六三分之一以上那麼2023年以警察為例人數六萬八千七百二十四人全國公務員人數三十六萬多人軍人二十一萬多人軍公教人數七十六萬多人警察的人數佔軍公教全體人數百分之八但是因公殉職比例百分之二十八加了消防這個全體人數比例大概不會超過百分之十但因公殉職的比例高達百分之三十六點六\n\n06:04.315 --> 06:18.940\n所以不管是警察或者是消防同仁工作的風險職場的安全的壓力也明顯的高於一般的公務人員這樣目前講到為止應該沒有問題對不對對沒有問題沒有問題喔署長不錯阿莎莉\n\n06:19.875 --> 06:47.429\n那麼兩位署長認不認同基於不同的待遇啊我們常常講我們不要齊頭式平等齊頭式平等的平等是假平等假平等就是徵不公啊兩位署長是否認同藉由的人事制度體系不同於現有的公務體系同意嗎同意對你們剛剛都回答了嘛那麼退休制度應不應該做一點合理的差別待遇啊來達成所謂的立足點的平等我們來努力啦你們來努力消防組要不要努力一下\n\n06:48.427 --> 06:48.547\n二）委員\n\n07:07.530 --> 07:22.137\n時間到了我們不耽誤後面今天要審查法條我們不耽誤審查的時間我們希望我們這個社會享受警察人員帶給我們的安全和平跟穩定的生活最苦的差事都是由這一群人來做我希望這個國家社會善待這一群人不管是在職\n\n07:22.757 --> 07:26.699\n條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一．一）委員\n\n07:44.807 --> 07:53.997\n基於各個情務的實際上的差別來達成立足點的真平等。」這是本席的政策建議希望今天在座的大家好好思考好好討論以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.854,"end":7.16,"text":"好謝謝主席警政署長消防署長有請麻煩兩位署長"},{"start":17.779,"end":40.601,"text":"委員早安兩位辛苦了今天大家都對兩位靈魂拷問為什麼因為大家都希望幫不管是現職的或者是退休的警消同仁爭取剛好的生活品質對不對那我就單刀直舞我就直接問我們這個警消人員的人事制度包含考試教育訓練任用"},{"start":42.142,"end":54.637,"text":"官制、官規、福祉、配階、獎懲、考核、考期、升遷、調度等這些的人事制度法源依據是什麼?警政署長請回答警察人事條例來消防署長請回答我們包括一般公務員跟消防員有消防人事條例對不對還沒"},{"start":61.585,"end":62.145,"text":"警察人員人事條例"},{"start":81.112,"end":81.192,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":98.364,"end":99.905,"text":"警察人員人事條例三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":122.734,"end":122.874,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":141.52,"end":166.923,"text":"感謝委員我們在七八五號解釋函以後整個起舞整個大埔的降低外勤同仁的負擔所以目前這個起舞已經趨向於正常化的一個處理謝謝趨向正常化恐怕也不可能跟一般公教人員一樣啦而公教人員下班就下班了消防隊起火了就是要出勤嘛基本上簡單來說你就是有執勤備勤制度嘛而且遇到緊急狀況的時候你要召回嘛對不對大家這個要取消休假"},{"start":167.523,"end":195.769,"text":"所以講到目前為止其實不一樣的地方越來越多了那我再接著問這一點我特別問一下警察署署長行政程序法第19條講的是什麼?突然問不一定有概念沒關係我不為難你來直接秀給署長看我為什麼要寫這一條這個是不管是警察或消防其實都是基層同仁行政的背景這個是職務協助的問題沒錯行政機關為發揮共同一體行政機能與全縣範圍內互相協助寫得真好"},{"start":196.069,"end":211.134,"text":"事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員"},{"start":211.414,"end":239.835,"text":"相對來說付出最多、最辛苦的基層人員。」兩位署長同意嗎?同意。同意對不對?來舉幾個例子來警察我們都哪些事情做了協定?比如講像在防疫的期間啊防疫期間我們警察還要去做這些防疫所的這個警戒啦或者是其他這一些這個縣市政府的這一些辦的活動要去維持他們的交通安全的勤務啦或者是或者是不錯啦很多單位都"},{"start":240.936,"end":246.464,"text":"例如說非洲豬瘟官務要協助調查等等所以這些的主管機關不管是衛福部會或是其他機關或警察機場的官務處理都會要求無隸屬關係的警政署來提供警務協助來消防有沒有幾個例子"},{"start":258.243,"end":274.477,"text":"感謝委員還有委員會這邊對消防的關心這幾年我們一直在檢討怎麼簡化我們消防軍的輕物包括捕蜂捉蛇很感謝捕蜂捉蛇嘛對不對我就想講捕蜂捉蛇即便您努力的想要講簡化對不對但是還是有若干的地方基於"},{"start":275.157,"end":289.751,"text":"沒辦法這個東西是灰色地帶最有專業能力也最好的消防科請你們擔待請你們幫忙所以我們今天提這個東西的概念就是基層警消就是行政程序法第19條裡面擔負最多責任這個也同樣不同於一般的公教人員再來"},{"start":290.552,"end":306.822,"text":"我要再問勞動安全的部分公實風險公實的責任有跟一般公務員相同嗎?不相同非常不相同對不對你看今天我問題都非常簡單對不對答案也都一樣對不對是非題全部都差對不對是否相同全部不相同為什麼不相同一樣"},{"start":307.222,"end":331.754,"text":"因為時間有限我們就直接講這我先以警察為例子剛剛我還臨時加了一下消防的2017年到2023年近7年的總計我們的警察同仁不幸因公殉職了65人因公受傷6037人全體軍公教因為因公殉職者229人光是警察佔全體軍公教因公殉職28%消防人員殉職人員19人"},{"start":334.835,"end":363.354,"text":"如果把消防人員加進去這個比例會變百分之三十六點六三分之一以上那麼2023年以警察為例人數六萬八千七百二十四人全國公務員人數三十六萬多人軍人二十一萬多人軍公教人數七十六萬多人警察的人數佔軍公教全體人數百分之八但是因公殉職比例百分之二十八加了消防這個全體人數比例大概不會超過百分之十但因公殉職的比例高達百分之三十六點六"},{"start":364.315,"end":378.94,"text":"所以不管是警察或者是消防同仁工作的風險職場的安全的壓力也明顯的高於一般的公務人員這樣目前講到為止應該沒有問題對不對對沒有問題沒有問題喔 署長不錯阿莎莉"},{"start":379.875,"end":407.429,"text":"那麼兩位署長認不認同基於不同的待遇啊我們常常講我們不要齊頭式平等齊頭式平等的平等是假平等假平等就是徵不公啊兩位署長是否認同藉由的人事制度體系不同於現有的公務體系同意嗎同意對你們剛剛都回答了嘛那麼退休制度應不應該做一點合理的差別待遇啊來達成所謂的立足點的平等我們來努力啦你們來努力消防組要不要努力一下"},{"start":408.427,"end":408.547,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":427.53,"end":442.137,"text":"時間到了我們不耽誤後面今天要審查法條我們不耽誤審查的時間我們希望我們這個社會享受警察人員帶給我們的安全和平跟穩定的生活最苦的差事都是由這一群人來做我希望這個國家社會善待這一群人不管是在職"},{"start":442.757,"end":446.699,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一．一）委員"},{"start":464.807,"end":473.997,"text":"基於各個情務的實際上的差別來達成立足點的真平等。」這是本席的政策建議希望今天在座的大家好好思考好好討論以上謝謝"}]}}}}