{"id":153961,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153961","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba07734889c01d332a58ff7e0bc1ebc50214d862afa46997d4ee27a470d39c62d065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:52:44 - 11:01:18","影片長度":"00:08:34","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T10:52:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:01:18+08:00","duration":514,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時52分）主席，我們請銓敘部。"],["主席：麻煩銓敘部次長。"],["張次長秋元：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：次長好。我想今天其實最重要的主管機關應該是銓敘部，相關這些退撫的法規都是由我們銓敘部來主管。今天一個早上、我在這邊一個早上聽到許多委員真的講得慷慨激昂、令人動容，但是因為今天人多、時間短，所以我就沒有辦法闡述我個人的想法，我趕快利用這短短的6分鐘把我個人對今天修法有一些問題來請教，我們把它釐清，因為大家對警察人員的關心都是一致的，沒有人不關心啊！"],["張次長秋元：是。"],["沈委員發惠：但是這中間有一些問題要釐清。首先就是目前公務人員跟警察這些退撫的基金，基本上，它的財務規劃應該有一個核心的原則，請問一下銓敘部，我們財務規劃的核心原則是什麼？"],["張次長秋元：我們的財務規劃核心原則就是繳費跟給付的權利義務是要對等，也就是在同一個基金的人就繳同樣的錢，然後後面領同樣的基金，因為大家都在沒有工作的狀態之下，剛才很多委員在講說警察工作的危勞，我們要在現職的時候去支持他。"],["沈委員發惠：OK，好，沒有關係。就是說一個基金財務規劃的原則，基本上就是我們繳一樣，我們要領一樣。"],["張次長秋元：對，繳一樣、領一樣。"],["沈委員發惠：這是一個……"],["張次長秋元：不然我們沒辦法對其他人……"],["沈委員發惠：所有基金都一樣，你的財務規劃原則基本上是這個啦！繳一樣所以就領一樣。","接下來我就有第二個問題，如果今天按照這個修法，我們單獨提高警消人員的所得替代率，這樣符合剛剛所講的這個原則嗎？"],["張次長秋元：會造成一個不公平，就是同一個基金裡面繳了一樣多，然後有人領多，有人領少。"],["沈委員發惠：繳一樣多，有人領多、有人領少的意思就是說，我繳了這個錢，但是我可能未來要領的被別人領走了。"],["張次長秋元：對，因為基金財務是大家一起共同去負擔的。"],["沈委員發惠：所以就變成其實他是增加了這些人的負擔？"],["張次長秋元：對，增加他的財務負擔跟風險。"],["沈委員發惠：增加他的財務負擔跟風險嘛！"],["張次長秋元：對。"],["沈委員發惠：我想這個部分也是等一下我們逐條討論的時候，希望本委員會大家能夠……"],["張次長秋元：這個就是我們最難去解的問題，它就是會造成一個很不公平的情況，而且另外還有幾乎百分之八十是一般公務員。"],["沈委員發惠：但是剛剛有一些委員很激動的講說，我們國家這幾年稅收有剩這麼多，所以我們要就實際來評估，如果說按照這次修法，如果我們提高警消人員的所得替代率的話，就未來支出，我們的估算大概是怎麼樣？"],["張次長秋元：我們未來的支出就是會有2成的衝擊啦！就是本來可以節省，就是把它回補到、挹注到退撫基金的，我們預估每年至少會15億以上，如果算到10年，就已經到150億以上，它是持續會再增加的；另外就是我們增加支出的部分，就是基金要多付出的部分，我們是用每年退休大概1,600個警消人員來估，大概到第30年是每年都會是60億以上，所以它是累加、累加一直上去。"],["沈委員發惠：累加一直上去。"],["張次長秋元：對、對、對，所以會造成雙重的財務衝擊。"],["沈委員發惠：雙重財務衝擊，就是我們整個流出去的就比原來預估的要多很多，但是進來的又少、又減少了？"],["張次長秋元：對，但是這個基金是所有公務人員的。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，我一開始就問過了，是所有公務人員一起的基金，不是警察自己單獨的，不像軍人自己單獨的基金，對不對？"],["張次長秋元：以主管機關的立場，很難去解這個難題啦！"],["沈委員發惠：對。我們剛剛講到公平的原則，今天警消這樣子，假設我們今天通過了這個法案，那公務人員要求比照……"],["張次長秋元：我覺得一般公教人員一定會想要要求比照，要求比照之後就會變成基金原來的這個機制可能就沒有辦法承擔。"],["沈委員發惠：那等於……"],["張次長秋元：因為我們現在改得這麼努力，也……"],["沈委員發惠：整個年金改革就回到原點了，對不對？"],["張次長秋元：恐怕不只回到原點。"],["沈委員發惠：不只回到原點嘛！"],["張次長秋元：對，衝擊會更大。"],["沈委員發惠：衝擊會比沒有……"],["張次長秋元：對，會比沒有改還要大。"],["沈委員發惠：我想這些都是我們等一下大家在……希望本委會的委員……"],["張次長秋元：所以不是我們銓敘部……我們銓敘部真的是手心手背都是肉，這個大家要相信我們。"],["沈委員發惠：當然大家剛剛一直描述警消人員工作的辛勞跟危險性，既危險又辛苦，但是如果未來退休的警察跟現在還在第一線拚的警察領的一樣，這樣子……"],["張次長秋元：這樣就會留不住人。"],["沈委員發惠：這樣會留不住人。"],["張次長秋元：有做跟沒有做如果領一樣的話，我們一般人性啦……"],["沈委員發惠：對啊！誰還要留在第一線拚？如果所得替代率到95%……"],["張次長秋元：我們警察同仁很辛苦……"],["沈委員發惠：我退休了，我就不再處在危勞的環境裡面了。"],["張次長秋元：是。"],["沈委員發惠：雖然在職的時候……但是如果領的差不多，大概一般警察不會想要在第一線拚命吧！"],["張次長秋元：對，過去年改，這個也是一個重要的因素啦！就是現職的跟退休的領一樣，甚至還太接近了，這個其實是不合理的現象。"],["沈委員發惠：當然啦，這個前提，大家今天之所以這麼關心警消還有海巡，很主要是因為他工作的危勞，而這些公務人員裡面，處在危勞環境裡面工作的是只有警消、海巡，還有什麼？"],["張次長秋元：不只，還有其他很多。"],["沈委員發惠：隨便舉個例。"],["張次長秋元：像醫療機構的護理人員也是，然後監所的管理員也都是，這些都是，還有其他的。"],["沈委員發惠：但是這次修法……"],["張次長秋元：還有其他還沒有列到危勞的，我想很多公務人員也會覺得自己的工作很辛苦，所以一定會群起要求要一致，這樣可能基金的財務就會受到更大的衝擊。"],["沈委員發惠：我想還有很多問題啦！不過，我的時間到了，我再問最後一個我個人覺得很關鍵的問題，就是說目前我們警正四階以下的跟職等相當的公務人員，他們繳費是相同嘛！"],["張次長秋元：對。"],["沈委員發惠：他們目前的待遇是一樣的嗎？就是相同職等。"],["張次長秋元：我們現在從警佐三階起是有差距的，比一般公務人員會多1萬塊錢。"],["沈委員發惠：就差距不太。"],["張次長秋元：對，如果他的年功到頂，到新北或者是臺北市，會多到3萬5。"],["沈委員發惠：也許對警消這麼危險的工作來講，這是一點點、杯水車薪。"],["張次長秋元：應該啦、應該啦。"],["沈委員發惠：但是如果所得替代率提高的話，未來退休以後他們的差距會很大，對不對？"],["張次長秋元：現在大概都差1萬。"],["沈委員發惠：如果今天修法，提高警消人員的……"],["張次長秋元：會更大，至少會比公務人員大概多1萬5千塊以上，比同等階的會多1萬5千塊。"],["沈委員發惠：我想這個都是有公平性的，今天……"],["張次長秋元：這樣可能很多一般公務人員是心裡沒有辦法接受。"],["沈委員發惠：因為今天整個上午我也聽到很多令人動容、慷慨激昂的陳述，甚至有人說我們目前同樣都是危勞，警察跟軍人比，就是把警察當作二等公民；但是如果今天我們就這樣子修法，沒有再去考慮剛剛所講的這些原則，那不是就把其他公務人員當作三等公民嗎？是這樣的概念嗎？"],["張次長秋元：我們擔心的就是這樣子。"],["沈委員發惠：我希望本委員會今天思考我們年金改革……"],["張次長秋元：這個核心邏輯如果被破壞掉以後，很多都會講不通。"],["沈委員發惠：好，謝謝，希望等一下法條討論的時候我們還有機會再來請教，謝謝。"],["張次長秋元：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在11點了，我們先來處理臨時提案。臨時提案共1案，宣讀後就進行處理，請宣讀。","臨時提案1（修正本）","鑒於近日新竹市高樓社區「晴空匯」，深夜發生火警2名消防員在火場疑似氣瓶耗盡，倒臥梯間不幸殉職，而2人求救音檔內容，與新竹市消防局先前對外說明的內容有出入。","另近日彰化縣警察局爆出登記退休意願潮，警政署強調為每年度事先退休意願調查，實際退休人數不會那麼多，惟近年社會風氣和民眾權益高漲，讓員警在值勤時遇到較多突發狀況，進而影響員警留任意願。","茲爰請內政部：","一、「分就警政、消防體系督察部門的運作現況進行成效比較分析，並就待改善部門提出精進強化方案」，於三個月內提供書面報告。","二、評估「為加強現職警消人員人身安全及保障，編列預算補助警消人員購買個人裝備」可行性，並於一個月內提供書面報告。","三、「檢討現有義警、義交及義消人身安全保險項目，並研議增列因公殉職者遺屬照顧年金給付方式」，於三個月內提出書面報告。","提案人：鍾佳濱　　王美惠　　黃　捷"],["主席：謝謝。針對臨時提案第1案，請問提案委員有無補充說明？"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有。"],["主席：針對臨時提案，請問機關有沒有其他的意見或說明？機關這邊有沒有？（無）沒有。如果沒有的話，我們就依……","請羅委員。"],["羅委員智強：對這個臨時提案我覺得非常認同，但是既然是內政部的部分，我就加一個修正的提案動議，就是剛剛在答詢過程當中，我發現警政署及消防署其實都很支持今天委員們的提案，甚至警政署也說他們會努力地針對我們的案子跟其他的政府單位協調、溝通，其實主要是銓敘部。所以我們建議在三點裡面加上第一點，就是請內政部、尤其是警政署如何與銓敘部等政府單位溝通，按照今天我們的提案優化、改善今天警消退休的相關福利待遇，修正文字可能整理一下，我就提上去，好不好？"],["主席：請鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得兩個提案的性質不太一樣，是不是請羅委員另外提一個案，我們都可以支持，但是提案性質不同，一個是就現職人員的安全保障，一個是退休人員的福利待遇，我覺得大家的提案互相支持，但是併在一起恐怕……方向上，我們這一案是內政部主管，是不是羅委員你也可以提一個案子，好不好？"],["羅委員智強：我覺得現役跟退休是一體的，實際上本來就相關的一些……今天警察跟消防人員遇到這樣的問題，如果是現役的，我們當然支持，但是退休的部分，我覺得是要一體去看，所以我們今天把這個提案併起來，一起來討論，我覺得是比較有實益的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你可以……"],["羅委員智強：我就是要提我的修正提案動議，到時候你可以反對啊，對不對？"],["主席：請陳委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：我覺得因為民進黨鍾委員這個臨時提案裡頭也有說到彰化警局爆出登記退休意願潮，事實上羅委員提的修正動議是合理的，所以我們要把在職的跟退休的都要列入考慮，不然看起來提這種案子好像是鍾委員等都非常地支持警察現行部門的改進、精進、現職人員的保障、買個人裝備、義消這些、殉職的部分、年金的照顧方式，但還是沒有回到我們今天的議題，就是我們對於退職的警消、移民署的退職人員是不是要照顧，所以寫在裡頭可以兼顧，還是你們覺得退休的不用照顧，但現職的我們多照顧？"],["沈委員發惠：不要這樣子講話。"],["主席：沒有，一個、一個來。","請沈委員。"],["沈委員發惠：主席，我想從來沒有說在委員會提案一定要跟今天的主題有關，陳玉珍委員這麼久了，對不對？今天相關的部會來，所以就臨時提案。我覺得臨時提案整個過程裡面大部分大家都是尊重提案的委員，你同意或者不同意，不同意的話就不同意這個案子通過，如果同意……你提出這個完全是可以分成兩個案子，不是非得併為一個案子。你可以提修正動議，你提修正動議，我們就來處理，如果真的連這種臨時提案都要用表決來解決的話，我就不知道所為何來。所以我希望大家就尊重提案委員，如果有什麼樣的文字修正，大家可以提，但是不要在那邊說什麼你這個提案是要怎麼樣，這樣講話不好，我不曉得你們內政委員會是這種風格，至少在司法，喔，他不是內政。"],["主席：陳委員要補充。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為沈委員提到我，本席要特別說明一下。因為他的提案內容說明裡頭有講到彰化警局爆出登記退休意願潮，與退休有關，所以我們才會說把退休警員的照顧也一併寫在裡頭，這個不是特別說要提怎麼樣。我們當然也是支持這樣的案子，對於現職警員、警政、消防的照顧，我們也是非常地支持，只是對於退休的部分，我們想可以兼併，當然，這跟今天的主題沒有關係，但是我感覺民進黨很像是不是就不支持這些退休的員警、消防人員，然後就要提一個好像你們很支持的提案，試圖魚目混珠，我不是反對你們的案子。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就原案處理嘛！"],["主席：等一下，我們先停一下。我們休息5分鐘，讓他們去洗手間，然後你們溝通一下、協調一下，5分鐘，大家討論一下。","休息（11時7分）","繼續開會（11時21分）"],["主席：謝謝各位的耐性，我們現在繼續會議。","我們有新收臨時提案第2案，請宣讀。","臨時提案2","針對警政署長詢答表示針對今日提案改善警消退休人員待遇之「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條」相關內容，願與銓敘部等相關政府機關溝通，請警政署於一個月內提出說帖。","提案人：羅智強　　傅崐萁　　林思銘　　謝龍介　　翁曉玲"],["主席：謝謝。臨時提案二案均已宣讀完畢，現在逐案審理。","先處理臨時提案第1案，請問提案委員有無補充說明？"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","針對臨時提案，請問機關有無其他意見或補充？","署長，請說。"],["張署長榮興：三個月。"],["主席：署長希望改成三個月，不知道鍾委員……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他應該是指第2案，不是指第1案。"],["主席：第1案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第1案本來就已經修正為三個月了。"],["張署長榮興：對，……"],["主席：我們先討論第1案，謝謝署長，現在討論第1案。不好意思，是我的錯，我沒有講清楚。","請問一下，就第1案的部分，機關有無其他意見、說明或補充？","署長，請問一下，臨時提案第1案在第二點是說「一個月內提供書面報告」，第三點是「三個月」，請問你剛剛說的三個月是指第二點，還是第三點？"],["張署長榮興：我講的是第2案。"],["主席：你講的是第2案，好，那沒問題。","謝謝各位。請問一下，就臨時提案第1案，各位有無其他意見？（無）沒有的話，我們就依照修正後的文字通過。","現在討論臨時提案第2案，請問提案委員有無補充說明？（無）","針對臨時提案第2案，請問機關有無其他意見或說明？"],["張署長榮興：是否一個月改三個月，說帖改說明？"],["主席：請問就第2案修正後的文字，各位委員有沒有不同意見？（無）好，沒有的話，臨時提案第2案就依照修正後的文字通過，改為三個月。","謝謝各位，我們接下來繼續詢答。請翁曉玲委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra 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\"start\": 511.06, \"end\": 511.14, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 511.14, \"end\": 511.16, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 511.16, \"end\": 511.2, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 511.2, \"end\": 511.3, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 511.3, \"end\": 511.32, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,732 --> 00:00:17,156\n主席我們請全序部麻煩全序部次長市長好市長好我想這個今天其實最重要的主管機關應該是全序部因為相關的這些退府的這些法規都是由我們全序部來主管\n\n2\n00:00:37,165 --> 00:00:46,712\n今天一個早上我在這邊一個早上聽到這個許多的委員是真的我看講得慷慨激昂令人動容\n\n3\n00:00:48,255 --> 00:01:10,569\n但是因為今天人多時間短所以我就沒有辦法闡述我個人的想法那我趕快利用這短短的6分鐘就是把我個人對今天修法的一些問題就來請教我們把它釐清因為大家對警察人員的關心都是一致的沒有人不關心但是我們需要中間有一些問題要釐清\n\n4\n00:01:12,330 --> 00:01:24,086\n首先就是說這個我們這個目前的這些公務員跟警察這些退府的基金喔他是基本上財務規劃應該有一個核心的原則請問一下我們全序部我們這種財務規劃核心原則是什麼\n\n5\n00:01:27,517 --> 00:01:27,637\n二）委員二）委員\n\n6\n00:01:55,422 --> 00:01:55,582\n二）委員\n\n7\n00:02:17,321 --> 00:02:38,019\n那這樣子符合剛剛所講的這個原則嗎?會造成一個不公平就是同一個基金裡面有繳的一樣多然後有人領多有人領少那有繳一樣多有人領多有人領少的意思就是說有人我繳了這個錢但是我的這個可能未來要領的被領少了基金財務是大家一起共同去負擔的\n\n8\n00:02:38,769 --> 00:03:01,141\n所以他就變成他其實他是增加了這些人增加財務負擔跟風險增加財務負擔風險這個就我想這部分也是大家在等一下我們主條討論的時候希望大家能夠本委員這個就是我們最難去解的問題他就是造成一個很不公平的這樣另外還有80%的一般公務員\n\n9\n00:03:02,662 --> 00:03:17,807\n但是剛有一些委員很激動的講說我們國家這幾年稅收有剩這麼多所以我們就實際來評估如果說按照就這些的修法如果我們提高警察人員所得替代率的話就未來支出我們的估算大概是怎麼樣\n\n10\n00:03:18,865 --> 00:03:20,185\n二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具\n\n11\n00:03:48,814 --> 00:03:48,914\n二）委員\n\n12\n00:04:09,924 --> 00:04:29,158\n但是這個基金是所謂有公務人員的?我知道一開始就問過所有公務人員一起的基金嘛不是警察自己不像軍人是警察組的基金嘛對不對以主管機關立場很難去解這個難題對那我們剛剛講到公平的原則那今天請教這樣子那假設啦假設我們今天通過了這個法案那公務人員要求比照\n\n13\n00:04:30,185 --> 00:04:53,020\n公務員要求比照我覺得一般公教人員一定會想要求比照嘛那要求比照之後就會變成基金原來的這個機制可能就沒有辦法承擔了因為我們現在改了這麼努力整個年齡改革就回到原點了對不對恐怕不只回到原點不只回到原點所以這個衝擊會更大衝擊會比沒有年齡改革更大\n\n14\n00:04:58,045 --> 00:05:19,937\n我想這些都是我們等一下大家在希望說這個我們本委會的委員所以不是我們全區部齁全區部我們真的是手心手背都是肉這個大家要相信我們這個當然啦大家剛剛一直描述這個警消人員工作的這個辛勞跟危險性啊既危險又辛苦但是\n\n15\n00:05:20,777 --> 00:05:47,623\n如果說未來我退休的警察跟現在還在第一線拚的警察領的一樣這樣子這樣就會留不住人有時候就沒有如果領一樣的話一般人性啦我們警察都很辛苦我退休了我就不再處在危牢的環境裡面雖然說在職的時候在但是如果說領的就差不多那大概一般警察不會想要在第一線拚命\n\n16\n00:05:48,403 --> 00:05:48,503\n二）委員\n\n17\n00:06:15,172 --> 00:06:24,778\n指責警、蕭、海巡、還有其他其他很多,像這個醫療機構的護理人員也是,然後那個監所的管理人員也都是,這些都是,還有其他的。\n\n18\n00:06:30,761 --> 00:06:56,308\n其他他還沒有列到為老的人我想很多供應人會覺得自己的工作很辛苦所以一定會群起要要求要一致那這樣可能基金的財務就會受到更大的衝突我想還有很多問題不過我時間到我再問最後一個我個人覺得很關鍵的問題就是說現在目前目前我們這個警政事階以下的這個跟值等相當的公務人員他們的這個\n\n19\n00:06:59,189 --> 00:06:59,369\n二）委員\n\n20\n00:07:09,408 --> 00:07:35,384\n對,我們現在就是他這個從井左三街他是有差距的,他就比辦公人就會多一萬塊錢嘛。就差距比較大。對,但如果他從民工到頂,那如果到新北或者是台北市,這也許對井消這麼危險的工作來講這是一點點背水扭水。應該啦,應該啦。但是如果所得利害率把它提高的話,那未來退休以後他們的差距會很大對不對?\n\n21\n00:07:37,446 --> 00:07:39,489\n警察人員人事條例第三\n\n22\n00:07:52,644 --> 00:08:18,217\n這樣可能很多一般公務員是心裡沒有辦法接受今天整個上午我也聽到很多令人動容的這些慷慨激昂的陳述甚至有人說我們目前同樣都在圍牢這個警察跟軍人比先是把警察當作二等公民但是如果我們今天就這樣子修法沒有再去考慮剛剛所講的這些原則那不是就把其他公務員當作三等公民嗎是這樣的概念嗎\n\n23\n00:08:19,912 --> 00:08:31,320\n我認為我希望說本委會在今天的這個思考我們年金改革就是這個合金邏輯如果被破壞掉以後很多都會講不通謝謝我們等一下希望說等一下法條討論的時候我們還有機會再來請教謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12732\t17156\t主席我們請全序部麻煩全序部次長市長好市長好我想這個今天其實最重要的主管機關應該是全序部因為相關的這些退府的這些法規都是由我們全序部來主管\n37165\t46712\t今天一個早上我在這邊一個早上聽到這個許多的委員是真的我看講得慷慨激昂令人動容\n48255\t70569\t但是因為今天人多時間短所以我就沒有辦法闡述我個人的想法那我趕快利用這短短的6分鐘就是把我個人對今天修法的一些問題就來請教我們把它釐清因為大家對警察人員的關心都是一致的沒有人不關心但是我們需要中間有一些問題要釐清\n72330\t84086\t首先就是說這個我們這個目前的這些公務員跟警察這些退府的基金喔他是基本上財務規劃應該有一個核心的原則請問一下我們全序部我們這種財務規劃核心原則是什麼\n87517\t87637\t二）委員二）委員\n115422\t115582\t二）委員\n137321\t158019\t那這樣子符合剛剛所講的這個原則嗎?會造成一個不公平就是同一個基金裡面有繳的一樣多然後有人領多有人領少那有繳一樣多有人領多有人領少的意思就是說有人我繳了這個錢但是我的這個可能未來要領的被領少了基金財務是大家一起共同去負擔的\n158769\t181141\t所以他就變成他其實他是增加了這些人增加財務負擔跟風險增加財務負擔風險這個就我想這部分也是大家在等一下我們主條討論的時候希望大家能夠本委員這個就是我們最難去解的問題他就是造成一個很不公平的這樣另外還有80%的一般公務員\n182662\t197807\t但是剛有一些委員很激動的講說我們國家這幾年稅收有剩這麼多所以我們就實際來評估如果說按照就這些的修法如果我們提高警察人員所得替代率的話就未來支出我們的估算大概是怎麼樣\n198865\t200185\t二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具\n228814\t228914\t二）委員\n249924\t269158\t但是這個基金是所謂有公務人員的?我知道一開始就問過所有公務人員一起的基金嘛不是警察自己不像軍人是警察組的基金嘛對不對以主管機關立場很難去解這個難題對那我們剛剛講到公平的原則那今天請教這樣子那假設啦假設我們今天通過了這個法案那公務人員要求比照\n270185\t293020\t公務員要求比照我覺得一般公教人員一定會想要求比照嘛那要求比照之後就會變成基金原來的這個機制可能就沒有辦法承擔了因為我們現在改了這麼努力整個年齡改革就回到原點了對不對恐怕不只回到原點不只回到原點所以這個衝擊會更大衝擊會比沒有年齡改革更大\n298045\t319937\t我想這些都是我們等一下大家在希望說這個我們本委會的委員所以不是我們全區部齁全區部我們真的是手心手背都是肉這個大家要相信我們這個當然啦大家剛剛一直描述這個警消人員工作的這個辛勞跟危險性啊既危險又辛苦但是\n320777\t347623\t如果說未來我退休的警察跟現在還在第一線拚的警察領的一樣這樣子這樣就會留不住人有時候就沒有如果領一樣的話一般人性啦我們警察都很辛苦我退休了我就不再處在危牢的環境裡面雖然說在職的時候在但是如果說領的就差不多那大概一般警察不會想要在第一線拚命\n348403\t348503\t二）委員\n375172\t384778\t指責警、蕭、海巡、還有其他其他很多,像這個醫療機構的護理人員也是,然後那個監所的管理人員也都是,這些都是,還有其他的。\n390761\t416308\t其他他還沒有列到為老的人我想很多供應人會覺得自己的工作很辛苦所以一定會群起要要求要一致那這樣可能基金的財務就會受到更大的衝突我想還有很多問題不過我時間到我再問最後一個我個人覺得很關鍵的問題就是說現在目前目前我們這個警政事階以下的這個跟值等相當的公務人員他們的這個\n419189\t419369\t二）委員\n429408\t455384\t對,我們現在就是他這個從井左三街他是有差距的,他就比辦公人就會多一萬塊錢嘛。就差距比較大。對,但如果他從民工到頂,那如果到新北或者是台北市,這也許對井消這麼危險的工作來講這是一點點背水扭水。應該啦,應該啦。但是如果所得利害率把它提高的話,那未來退休以後他們的差距會很大對不對?\n457446\t459489\t警察人員人事條例第三\n472644\t498217\t這樣可能很多一般公務員是心裡沒有辦法接受今天整個上午我也聽到很多令人動容的這些慷慨激昂的陳述甚至有人說我們目前同樣都在圍牢這個警察跟軍人比先是把警察當作二等公民但是如果我們今天就這樣子修法沒有再去考慮剛剛所講的這些原則那不是就把其他公務員當作三等公民嗎是這樣的概念嗎\n499912\t511320\t我認為我希望說本委會在今天的這個思考我們年金改革就是這個合金邏輯如果被破壞掉以後很多都會講不通謝謝我們等一下希望說等一下法條討論的時候我們還有機會再來請教謝謝\n","txt":"主席我們請全序部麻煩全序部次長市長好市長好我想這個今天其實最重要的主管機關應該是全序部因為相關的這些退府的這些法規都是由我們全序部來主管\n今天一個早上我在這邊一個早上聽到這個許多的委員是真的我看講得慷慨激昂令人動容\n但是因為今天人多時間短所以我就沒有辦法闡述我個人的想法那我趕快利用這短短的6分鐘就是把我個人對今天修法的一些問題就來請教我們把它釐清因為大家對警察人員的關心都是一致的沒有人不關心但是我們需要中間有一些問題要釐清\n首先就是說這個我們這個目前的這些公務員跟警察這些退府的基金喔他是基本上財務規劃應該有一個核心的原則請問一下我們全序部我們這種財務規劃核心原則是什麼\n二）委員二）委員\n二）委員\n那這樣子符合剛剛所講的這個原則嗎?會造成一個不公平就是同一個基金裡面有繳的一樣多然後有人領多有人領少那有繳一樣多有人領多有人領少的意思就是說有人我繳了這個錢但是我的這個可能未來要領的被領少了基金財務是大家一起共同去負擔的\n所以他就變成他其實他是增加了這些人增加財務負擔跟風險增加財務負擔風險這個就我想這部分也是大家在等一下我們主條討論的時候希望大家能夠本委員這個就是我們最難去解的問題他就是造成一個很不公平的這樣另外還有80%的一般公務員\n但是剛有一些委員很激動的講說我們國家這幾年稅收有剩這麼多所以我們就實際來評估如果說按照就這些的修法如果我們提高警察人員所得替代率的話就未來支出我們的估算大概是怎麼樣\n二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具\n二）委員\n但是這個基金是所謂有公務人員的?我知道一開始就問過所有公務人員一起的基金嘛不是警察自己不像軍人是警察組的基金嘛對不對以主管機關立場很難去解這個難題對那我們剛剛講到公平的原則那今天請教這樣子那假設啦假設我們今天通過了這個法案那公務人員要求比照\n公務員要求比照我覺得一般公教人員一定會想要求比照嘛那要求比照之後就會變成基金原來的這個機制可能就沒有辦法承擔了因為我們現在改了這麼努力整個年齡改革就回到原點了對不對恐怕不只回到原點不只回到原點所以這個衝擊會更大衝擊會比沒有年齡改革更大\n我想這些都是我們等一下大家在希望說這個我們本委會的委員所以不是我們全區部齁全區部我們真的是手心手背都是肉這個大家要相信我們這個當然啦大家剛剛一直描述這個警消人員工作的這個辛勞跟危險性啊既危險又辛苦但是\n如果說未來我退休的警察跟現在還在第一線拚的警察領的一樣這樣子這樣就會留不住人有時候就沒有如果領一樣的話一般人性啦我們警察都很辛苦我退休了我就不再處在危牢的環境裡面雖然說在職的時候在但是如果說領的就差不多那大概一般警察不會想要在第一線拚命\n二）委員\n指責警、蕭、海巡、還有其他其他很多,像這個醫療機構的護理人員也是,然後那個監所的管理人員也都是,這些都是,還有其他的。\n其他他還沒有列到為老的人我想很多供應人會覺得自己的工作很辛苦所以一定會群起要要求要一致那這樣可能基金的財務就會受到更大的衝突我想還有很多問題不過我時間到我再問最後一個我個人覺得很關鍵的問題就是說現在目前目前我們這個警政事階以下的這個跟值等相當的公務人員他們的這個\n二）委員\n對,我們現在就是他這個從井左三街他是有差距的,他就比辦公人就會多一萬塊錢嘛。就差距比較大。對,但如果他從民工到頂,那如果到新北或者是台北市,這也許對井消這麼危險的工作來講這是一點點背水扭水。應該啦,應該啦。但是如果所得利害率把它提高的話,那未來退休以後他們的差距會很大對不對?\n警察人員人事條例第三\n這樣可能很多一般公務員是心裡沒有辦法接受今天整個上午我也聽到很多令人動容的這些慷慨激昂的陳述甚至有人說我們目前同樣都在圍牢這個警察跟軍人比先是把警察當作二等公民但是如果我們今天就這樣子修法沒有再去考慮剛剛所講的這些原則那不是就把其他公務員當作三等公民嗎是這樣的概念嗎\n我認為我希望說本委會在今天的這個思考我們年金改革就是這個合金邏輯如果被破壞掉以後很多都會講不通謝謝我們等一下希望說等一下法條討論的時候我們還有機會再來請教謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.732 --> 00:17.156\n主席我們請全序部麻煩全序部次長市長好市長好我想這個今天其實最重要的主管機關應該是全序部因為相關的這些退府的這些法規都是由我們全序部來主管\n\n00:37.165 --> 00:46.712\n今天一個早上我在這邊一個早上聽到這個許多的委員是真的我看講得慷慨激昂令人動容\n\n00:48.255 --> 01:10.569\n但是因為今天人多時間短所以我就沒有辦法闡述我個人的想法那我趕快利用這短短的6分鐘就是把我個人對今天修法的一些問題就來請教我們把它釐清因為大家對警察人員的關心都是一致的沒有人不關心但是我們需要中間有一些問題要釐清\n\n01:12.330 --> 01:24.086\n首先就是說這個我們這個目前的這些公務員跟警察這些退府的基金喔他是基本上財務規劃應該有一個核心的原則請問一下我們全序部我們這種財務規劃核心原則是什麼\n\n01:27.517 --> 01:27.637\n二）委員二）委員\n\n01:55.422 --> 01:55.582\n二）委員\n\n02:17.321 --> 02:38.019\n那這樣子符合剛剛所講的這個原則嗎?會造成一個不公平就是同一個基金裡面有繳的一樣多然後有人領多有人領少那有繳一樣多有人領多有人領少的意思就是說有人我繳了這個錢但是我的這個可能未來要領的被領少了基金財務是大家一起共同去負擔的\n\n02:38.769 --> 03:01.141\n所以他就變成他其實他是增加了這些人增加財務負擔跟風險增加財務負擔風險這個就我想這部分也是大家在等一下我們主條討論的時候希望大家能夠本委員這個就是我們最難去解的問題他就是造成一個很不公平的這樣另外還有80%的一般公務員\n\n03:02.662 --> 03:17.807\n但是剛有一些委員很激動的講說我們國家這幾年稅收有剩這麼多所以我們就實際來評估如果說按照就這些的修法如果我們提高警察人員所得替代率的話就未來支出我們的估算大概是怎麼樣\n\n03:18.865 --> 03:20.185\n二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具\n\n03:48.814 --> 03:48.914\n二）委員\n\n04:09.924 --> 04:29.158\n但是這個基金是所謂有公務人員的?我知道一開始就問過所有公務人員一起的基金嘛不是警察自己不像軍人是警察組的基金嘛對不對以主管機關立場很難去解這個難題對那我們剛剛講到公平的原則那今天請教這樣子那假設啦假設我們今天通過了這個法案那公務人員要求比照\n\n04:30.185 --> 04:53.020\n公務員要求比照我覺得一般公教人員一定會想要求比照嘛那要求比照之後就會變成基金原來的這個機制可能就沒有辦法承擔了因為我們現在改了這麼努力整個年齡改革就回到原點了對不對恐怕不只回到原點不只回到原點所以這個衝擊會更大衝擊會比沒有年齡改革更大\n\n04:58.045 --> 05:19.937\n我想這些都是我們等一下大家在希望說這個我們本委會的委員所以不是我們全區部齁全區部我們真的是手心手背都是肉這個大家要相信我們這個當然啦大家剛剛一直描述這個警消人員工作的這個辛勞跟危險性啊既危險又辛苦但是\n\n05:20.777 --> 05:47.623\n如果說未來我退休的警察跟現在還在第一線拚的警察領的一樣這樣子這樣就會留不住人有時候就沒有如果領一樣的話一般人性啦我們警察都很辛苦我退休了我就不再處在危牢的環境裡面雖然說在職的時候在但是如果說領的就差不多那大概一般警察不會想要在第一線拚命\n\n05:48.403 --> 05:48.503\n二）委員\n\n06:15.172 --> 06:24.778\n指責警、蕭、海巡、還有其他其他很多,像這個醫療機構的護理人員也是,然後那個監所的管理人員也都是,這些都是,還有其他的。\n\n06:30.761 --> 06:56.308\n其他他還沒有列到為老的人我想很多供應人會覺得自己的工作很辛苦所以一定會群起要要求要一致那這樣可能基金的財務就會受到更大的衝突我想還有很多問題不過我時間到我再問最後一個我個人覺得很關鍵的問題就是說現在目前目前我們這個警政事階以下的這個跟值等相當的公務人員他們的這個\n\n06:59.189 --> 06:59.369\n二）委員\n\n07:09.408 --> 07:35.384\n對,我們現在就是他這個從井左三街他是有差距的,他就比辦公人就會多一萬塊錢嘛。就差距比較大。對,但如果他從民工到頂,那如果到新北或者是台北市,這也許對井消這麼危險的工作來講這是一點點背水扭水。應該啦,應該啦。但是如果所得利害率把它提高的話,那未來退休以後他們的差距會很大對不對?\n\n07:37.446 --> 07:39.489\n警察人員人事條例第三\n\n07:52.644 --> 08:18.217\n這樣可能很多一般公務員是心裡沒有辦法接受今天整個上午我也聽到很多令人動容的這些慷慨激昂的陳述甚至有人說我們目前同樣都在圍牢這個警察跟軍人比先是把警察當作二等公民但是如果我們今天就這樣子修法沒有再去考慮剛剛所講的這些原則那不是就把其他公務員當作三等公民嗎是這樣的概念嗎\n\n08:19.912 --> 08:31.320\n我認為我希望說本委會在今天的這個思考我們年金改革就是這個合金邏輯如果被破壞掉以後很多都會講不通謝謝我們等一下希望說等一下法條討論的時候我們還有機會再來請教謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.732,"end":17.156,"text":"主席我們請全序部麻煩全序部次長市長好市長好我想這個今天其實最重要的主管機關應該是全序部因為相關的這些退府的這些法規都是由我們全序部來主管"},{"start":37.165,"end":46.712,"text":"今天一個早上我在這邊一個早上聽到這個許多的委員是真的我看講得慷慨激昂令人動容"},{"start":48.255,"end":70.569,"text":"但是因為今天人多時間短所以我就沒有辦法闡述我個人的想法那我趕快利用這短短的6分鐘就是把我個人對今天修法的一些問題就來請教我們把它釐清因為大家對警察人員的關心都是一致的沒有人不關心但是我們需要中間有一些問題要釐清"},{"start":72.33,"end":84.086,"text":"首先就是說這個我們這個目前的這些公務員跟警察這些退府的基金喔他是基本上財務規劃應該有一個核心的原則請問一下我們全序部我們這種財務規劃核心原則是什麼"},{"start":87.517,"end":87.637,"text":"二）委員二）委員"},{"start":115.422,"end":115.582,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":137.321,"end":158.019,"text":"那這樣子符合剛剛所講的這個原則嗎?會造成一個不公平就是同一個基金裡面有繳的一樣多然後有人領多有人領少那有繳一樣多有人領多有人領少的意思就是說有人我繳了這個錢但是我的這個可能未來要領的被領少了基金財務是大家一起共同去負擔的"},{"start":158.769,"end":181.141,"text":"所以他就變成他其實他是增加了這些人增加財務負擔跟風險增加財務負擔風險這個就我想這部分也是大家在等一下我們主條討論的時候希望大家能夠本委員這個就是我們最難去解的問題他就是造成一個很不公平的這樣另外還有80%的一般公務員"},{"start":182.662,"end":197.807,"text":"但是剛有一些委員很激動的講說我們國家這幾年稅收有剩這麼多所以我們就實際來評估如果說按照就這些的修法如果我們提高警察人員所得替代率的話就未來支出我們的估算大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":198.865,"end":200.185,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":228.814,"end":228.914,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":249.924,"end":269.158,"text":"但是這個基金是所謂有公務人員的?我知道一開始就問過所有公務人員一起的基金嘛不是警察自己不像軍人是警察組的基金嘛對不對以主管機關立場很難去解這個難題對那我們剛剛講到公平的原則那今天請教這樣子那假設啦假設我們今天通過了這個法案那公務人員要求比照"},{"start":270.185,"end":293.02,"text":"公務員要求比照我覺得一般公教人員一定會想要求比照嘛那要求比照之後就會變成基金原來的這個機制可能就沒有辦法承擔了因為我們現在改了這麼努力整個年齡改革就回到原點了對不對恐怕不只回到原點不只回到原點所以這個衝擊會更大衝擊會比沒有年齡改革更大"},{"start":298.045,"end":319.937,"text":"我想這些都是我們等一下大家在希望說這個我們本委會的委員所以不是我們全區部齁全區部我們真的是手心手背都是肉這個大家要相信我們這個當然啦大家剛剛一直描述這個警消人員工作的這個辛勞跟危險性啊既危險又辛苦但是"},{"start":320.777,"end":347.623,"text":"如果說未來我退休的警察跟現在還在第一線拚的警察領的一樣這樣子這樣就會留不住人有時候就沒有如果領一樣的話一般人性啦我們警察都很辛苦我退休了我就不再處在危牢的環境裡面雖然說在職的時候在但是如果說領的就差不多那大概一般警察不會想要在第一線拚命"},{"start":348.403,"end":348.503,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":375.172,"end":384.778,"text":"指責警、蕭、海巡、還有其他其他很多,像這個醫療機構的護理人員也是,然後那個監所的管理人員也都是,這些都是,還有其他的。"},{"start":390.761,"end":416.308,"text":"其他他還沒有列到為老的人我想很多供應人會覺得自己的工作很辛苦所以一定會群起要要求要一致那這樣可能基金的財務就會受到更大的衝突我想還有很多問題不過我時間到我再問最後一個我個人覺得很關鍵的問題就是說現在目前目前我們這個警政事階以下的這個跟值等相當的公務人員他們的這個"},{"start":419.189,"end":419.369,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":429.408,"end":455.384,"text":"對,我們現在就是他這個從井左三街他是有差距的,他就比辦公人就會多一萬塊錢嘛。就差距比較大。對,但如果他從民工到頂,那如果到新北或者是台北市,這也許對井消這麼危險的工作來講這是一點點背水扭水。應該啦,應該啦。但是如果所得利害率把它提高的話,那未來退休以後他們的差距會很大對不對?"},{"start":457.446,"end":459.489,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":472.644,"end":498.217,"text":"這樣可能很多一般公務員是心裡沒有辦法接受今天整個上午我也聽到很多令人動容的這些慷慨激昂的陳述甚至有人說我們目前同樣都在圍牢這個警察跟軍人比先是把警察當作二等公民但是如果我們今天就這樣子修法沒有再去考慮剛剛所講的這些原則那不是就把其他公務員當作三等公民嗎是這樣的概念嗎"},{"start":499.912,"end":511.32,"text":"我認為我希望說本委會在今天的這個思考我們年金改革就是這個合金邏輯如果被破壞掉以後很多都會講不通謝謝我們等一下希望說等一下法條討論的時候我們還有機會再來請教謝謝"}]}}}}