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Kacaw委員：副主計長，你要確保，為什麼要講那麼多？除了講給曾主委聽之外，就是講給你聽，剛才報告提到的，從105年到現在增加30幾億元，都是法律義務支出，有沒有排擠原來的？沒有啊！沒有排擠原來的，我講這麼多其實是講給你聽的，知道嗎？其實沒有排擠原來的，是新增的。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，有沒有排擠……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不能排擠、不能排擠。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是，但是中間可能原民會所提的計畫我們沒有辦法完全滿足，最後編列的跟它中間爭取的過程，不必然可以百分之百完全滿足原民會的需求，因為我們資源有限，但是我們會來努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我上次也有提到政府超徵稅收幾千億元，我們禁伐補償不過二十幾億元而已，以上。"],["主席：副主計長，請你們要依法行政，謝謝鄭天財委員，謝謝曾主委，謝謝副主計長。","繼續請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋，羅廷瑋委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳瑩","盧縣一","黃建賓","丁學忠","莊瑞雄"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住\n民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原\n住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推\n動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政\n部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"153982","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153982","tool":"pyannote","id":"153982-pyannote"},"job_id":"0BDJuEpjEpSGsvBO","queued_at":"2024-06-13 12:05:45","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-13 12:05:46","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153982"},{"time":"2024-06-13 12:05:48","msg":"downloading 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\"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 802.358, \"end\": 803.419, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"髮\"}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"償\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 803.419, \"end\": 803.539, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 803.539, \"end\": 804.06, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 804.06, \"end\": 804.22, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 804.22, \"end\": 804.761, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 804.761, \"end\": 804.861, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 804.861, \"end\": 804.881, \"score\": 0.237}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,894 --> 00:00:42,052\n主席、各位委員,有請曾主委。有請曾主委。還有行政院主計總署的副主席長。行政院主計副主席長。謝謝。那個也請原民會的主計室主任。對,主計室主任。好。好,曾主委。那個馬沙魯。馬沙魯,我也好。我好。我好。\n\n2\n00:00:44,799 --> 00:00:56,227\n今天你的報告裡面第一章就呈現出從105年到今年度113年度預算成長在112年度突破110然後這個113年度\n\n3\n00:01:08,643 --> 00:01:31,137\n總共從105到113年度總共增加了34.6億這個主計長我先問主計主任主計主任委員好知道為什麼會成長這麼多嗎成長的項目大概有進法補償這個項目是你知道這個好來我來說\n\n4\n00:01:37,843 --> 00:02:05,984\n絕大部分都是法律義務支出才增加的當然有一些是經過多年多年的爭取我們看這個104年7月1號博物館法第6條是本席在教育文化委員會審查博物館法的時候特別要求增加第6條要設置原住民族\n\n5\n00:02:06,912 --> 00:02:35,466\n博物館所以開始籌編經費開始從一直到今年才籌編比較多的經費以往都是一些規劃的什麼那些都所以這是法律義務支出進法補償條例剛才這個主任有提到這是104年12月18號立法院三讀通過所以要感謝簡東明委員\n\n6\n00:02:36,738 --> 00:03:00,787\n更要感謝高金素美召委當時在草野協商的時候一樣是我們柯總召不同意臨門一角這個有一些故事說來話長所以105年1月6號公布施行就要開始編列相關的這些預算\n\n7\n00:03:02,126 --> 00:03:29,638\n當然這些預算不應該編列在原民會照理應該要編列在農業部現在農業部才是符合原住民族基本法第21條的規定但是我們還是編在原民會所以113年6月10日立法院表決三讀通過當然要編列這是法例一無之處\n\n8\n00:03:32,113 --> 00:04:01,063\n我們看這個原住民族語言發展法106年6月44號公布這裡面就特別要編列經費然後也要成立已發基金會也要編列經費然後呢29條政府每年因寬裂預算推動本法所定各項原住民族語言發展措施所以就開始逐年的編列\n\n9\n00:04:02,409 --> 00:04:25,405\n原住民族語言的經費。」這個都是法律義務支出原住民族教育法我們高精素美在教育文化委員會擔任召委設法也是困難重重的困難重重的在沒有行政院版本的情況之下在教育文化委員會\n\n10\n00:04:27,215 --> 00:04:50,271\n非常困難的當時也要謝謝這個我們今天剛來的宗嘉賓當初他在教育文化委員會也有提出草案我沒有忘記你所以這個部分也是一樣法律義務之初我只是舉一條原住民族教育法第5條舉一條原住民族的知識\n\n11\n00:04:51,919 --> 00:05:19,859\n知識體系建構原住民族知識體系中長程企劃。」所以從109年開始編預算到113年度編的非常高的預算一億四千多萬元這是113年度所以我們原住民族的權益尤其是預算就是要透過法律\n\n12\n00:05:21,392 --> 00:05:44,808\n透過法例所以這個部分的我們看原住民族基本法20條政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利我們去講土地為什麼提還是要我們的土地啊被日本日記時代日本蛛絲會社劃為這個日本蛛絲會社的土地\n\n13\n00:05:50,956 --> 00:06:20,456\n日本敗戰之後回到日本他有沒有把這個土地帶回日本了沒有啊帶不走嘛所以台糖中華民國政府成立了台糖台糖公司接收了這個土地我們原住民族的土地從民國35年就開始繳租金給台糖繳到現在還在繳啊在洋人府的時代\n\n14\n00:06:22,054 --> 00:06:28,319\n嫁過了一批本席當立委之後從107開始我就開始質詢協調從107、108不是只有一張一張還不夠到109、110、111、112不斷的質詢協調\n\n15\n00:06:48,255 --> 00:07:15,513\n台糖公司、協調經濟部、協調行政院、協調組織總署光這個就三大章了這個協調才推動返還行政院才同意編列所以在113年度先編列了5000多萬114年度還要繼續編列所以原住民族的預算的爭取\n\n16\n00:07:17,179 --> 00:07:45,299\n很多都是要透過法例然後有的部分是要怎麼樣去透過我們原住民族的相關的這些轉型正義這個就是轉型正義之一我們看這個花東基金花東基金很重要的意他說落實公務為主基金為輔但是有了花東基金\n\n17\n00:07:46,381 --> 00:08:13,831\n過去原民會本來有編列部落基會所經費有了花東基金之後全部推給花東基金事實上是違反了公務為主、基金為輔所以本席就開始協調國發會開始協調行政院開始協調組織總署所以行政院就同意認定一個花東第七原住民族部落基會所行動計劃\n\n18\n00:08:15,663 --> 00:08:42,170\n就是要人民會增加人民會的遺跡部落計畫的經費總共4億多的經費當然今年113年度編的比較少而且這個部分下次還有空的時候還可以再談這裡面是不足的地方我們看這個\n\n19\n00:08:44,005 --> 00:09:12,135\n都會區,今天要談到都會區過去在都會區政府,台灣省政府的時代投入了很多如果我們現在所知道的屏東的文化會館當初台灣省政府我在當副局長的時候爭取台灣省政府主計總署的經費大溪的桃園大溪不是有個文化會館嗎\n\n20\n00:09:14,212 --> 00:09:42,902\n李修連當縣長的時候我去爭取主計總署的經費就畫了一個縣級的叫文化會館鄉鎮級的以族群為主叫文物館所以才會有這個從基隆、台北市、新北市到桃園、到台中、到屏東都有這個文化會館是這樣來的\n\n21\n00:09:44,076 --> 00:10:08,802\n然後各鄉鎮有一些族群的有這個文物館唯一沒有促成的是哪裡呢?亞美族的我們經費有給啊但是沒有促成那這個售來化廠所以這個經費族群主流化我就開始協調爭取召開過多次的協調會所以行政院終於合定\n\n22\n00:10:09,847 --> 00:10:37,288\n族群主流化公共空間的計畫所以在113年度開始有了這個經費所以這個我是舉這些例子要讓曾主委要讓我們所有的同仁要繼續努力所以這次的禁法補償絕對不可以擠壓現有的預算全部都要額度外的預算\n\n23\n00:10:38,681 --> 00:10:50,610\n這是基本因為它是法律義務支出啊沒有人要去擠壓現有的預算所以上次在這個我們韓院長在主持\n\n24\n00:10:52,286 --> 00:11:12,770\n協調的時候因為你出任到這個職務不怪你所以這個部分要往這方向去努力共同的努力當然有一些小額的我這邊就沒有寫我今天都是擠這個比較大額的所以有一些經費原民會該不該編?有的不該編啊主計長\n\n25\n00:11:19,474 --> 00:11:34,499\n像這個總統府設了原住民族歷史正義轉型正義委員會這個預算為什麼不編在總統府呢編在人民會莫名其妙我當公務員30年了從來也沒有看過這種的對不對總統府還缺錢嗎\n\n26\n00:11:41,279 --> 00:12:09,866\n你要回應就是說我們跟原住民相關的預算現在原民會可以比較看出他的全貌那當然就是說我們這個法律義務的經費當然依法就是要編列但是我們只是擔心他會不會去排擠到其他就是說非法律義務的重大計畫那當然這個部分就是我們要努力只是我們沒辦法確保說一定要確保\n\n27\n00:12:10,666 --> 00:12:38,909\n主計長主計長你要確保為什麼要講那麼多除了講給曾主委聽之外就是講給你聽了從105年從105年剛才的報告裡面提的增加三十幾億都是法律義務支出有沒有去排擠原來的沒有啊沒有排擠原來的我講這麼多其實是講給你聽的知道嗎\n\n28\n00:12:40,841 --> 00:12:42,241\n就是沒有排擠原來的是新增的\n\n29\n00:13:10,983 --> 00:13:24,881\n我上次也有提到政府超徵稅收幾千億我們只不過是就這個金髮補償來說二十幾億而已以上\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12894\t42052\t主席、各位委員,有請曾主委。有請曾主委。還有行政院主計總署的副主席長。行政院主計副主席長。謝謝。那個也請原民會的主計室主任。對,主計室主任。好。好,曾主委。那個馬沙魯。馬沙魯,我也好。我好。我好。\n44799\t56227\t今天你的報告裡面第一章就呈現出從105年到今年度113年度預算成長在112年度突破110然後這個113年度\n68643\t91137\t總共從105到113年度總共增加了34.6億這個主計長我先問主計主任主計主任委員好知道為什麼會成長這麼多嗎成長的項目大概有進法補償這個項目是你知道這個好來我來說\n97843\t125984\t絕大部分都是法律義務支出才增加的當然有一些是經過多年多年的爭取我們看這個104年7月1號博物館法第6條是本席在教育文化委員會審查博物館法的時候特別要求增加第6條要設置原住民族\n126912\t155466\t博物館所以開始籌編經費開始從一直到今年才籌編比較多的經費以往都是一些規劃的什麼那些都所以這是法律義務支出進法補償條例剛才這個主任有提到這是104年12月18號立法院三讀通過所以要感謝簡東明委員\n156738\t180787\t更要感謝高金素美召委當時在草野協商的時候一樣是我們柯總召不同意臨門一角這個有一些故事說來話長所以105年1月6號公布施行就要開始編列相關的這些預算\n182126\t209638\t當然這些預算不應該編列在原民會照理應該要編列在農業部現在農業部才是符合原住民族基本法第21條的規定但是我們還是編在原民會所以113年6月10日立法院表決三讀通過當然要編列這是法例一無之處\n212113\t241063\t我們看這個原住民族語言發展法106年6月44號公布這裡面就特別要編列經費然後也要成立已發基金會也要編列經費然後呢29條政府每年因寬裂預算推動本法所定各項原住民族語言發展措施所以就開始逐年的編列\n242409\t265405\t原住民族語言的經費。」這個都是法律義務支出原住民族教育法我們高精素美在教育文化委員會擔任召委設法也是困難重重的困難重重的在沒有行政院版本的情況之下在教育文化委員會\n267215\t290271\t非常困難的當時也要謝謝這個我們今天剛來的宗嘉賓當初他在教育文化委員會也有提出草案我沒有忘記你所以這個部分也是一樣法律義務之初我只是舉一條原住民族教育法第5條舉一條原住民族的知識\n291919\t319859\t知識體系建構原住民族知識體系中長程企劃。」所以從109年開始編預算到113年度編的非常高的預算一億四千多萬元這是113年度所以我們原住民族的權益尤其是預算就是要透過法律\n321392\t344808\t透過法例所以這個部分的我們看原住民族基本法20條政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利我們去講土地為什麼提還是要我們的土地啊被日本日記時代日本蛛絲會社劃為這個日本蛛絲會社的土地\n350956\t380456\t日本敗戰之後回到日本他有沒有把這個土地帶回日本了沒有啊帶不走嘛所以台糖中華民國政府成立了台糖台糖公司接收了這個土地我們原住民族的土地從民國35年就開始繳租金給台糖繳到現在還在繳啊在洋人府的時代\n382054\t388319\t嫁過了一批本席當立委之後從107開始我就開始質詢協調從107、108不是只有一張一張還不夠到109、110、111、112不斷的質詢協調\n408255\t435513\t台糖公司、協調經濟部、協調行政院、協調組織總署光這個就三大章了這個協調才推動返還行政院才同意編列所以在113年度先編列了5000多萬114年度還要繼續編列所以原住民族的預算的爭取\n437179\t465299\t很多都是要透過法例然後有的部分是要怎麼樣去透過我們原住民族的相關的這些轉型正義這個就是轉型正義之一我們看這個花東基金花東基金很重要的意他說落實公務為主基金為輔但是有了花東基金\n466381\t493831\t過去原民會本來有編列部落基會所經費有了花東基金之後全部推給花東基金事實上是違反了公務為主、基金為輔所以本席就開始協調國發會開始協調行政院開始協調組織總署所以行政院就同意認定一個花東第七原住民族部落基會所行動計劃\n495663\t522170\t就是要人民會增加人民會的遺跡部落計畫的經費總共4億多的經費當然今年113年度編的比較少而且這個部分下次還有空的時候還可以再談這裡面是不足的地方我們看這個\n524005\t552135\t都會區,今天要談到都會區過去在都會區政府,台灣省政府的時代投入了很多如果我們現在所知道的屏東的文化會館當初台灣省政府我在當副局長的時候爭取台灣省政府主計總署的經費大溪的桃園大溪不是有個文化會館嗎\n554212\t582902\t李修連當縣長的時候我去爭取主計總署的經費就畫了一個縣級的叫文化會館鄉鎮級的以族群為主叫文物館所以才會有這個從基隆、台北市、新北市到桃園、到台中、到屏東都有這個文化會館是這樣來的\n584076\t608802\t然後各鄉鎮有一些族群的有這個文物館唯一沒有促成的是哪裡呢?亞美族的我們經費有給啊但是沒有促成那這個售來化廠所以這個經費族群主流化我就開始協調爭取召開過多次的協調會所以行政院終於合定\n609847\t637288\t族群主流化公共空間的計畫所以在113年度開始有了這個經費所以這個我是舉這些例子要讓曾主委要讓我們所有的同仁要繼續努力所以這次的禁法補償絕對不可以擠壓現有的預算全部都要額度外的預算\n638681\t650610\t這是基本因為它是法律義務支出啊沒有人要去擠壓現有的預算所以上次在這個我們韓院長在主持\n652286\t672770\t協調的時候因為你出任到這個職務不怪你所以這個部分要往這方向去努力共同的努力當然有一些小額的我這邊就沒有寫我今天都是擠這個比較大額的所以有一些經費原民會該不該編?有的不該編啊主計長\n679474\t694499\t像這個總統府設了原住民族歷史正義轉型正義委員會這個預算為什麼不編在總統府呢編在人民會莫名其妙我當公務員30年了從來也沒有看過這種的對不對總統府還缺錢嗎\n701279\t729866\t你要回應就是說我們跟原住民相關的預算現在原民會可以比較看出他的全貌那當然就是說我們這個法律義務的經費當然依法就是要編列但是我們只是擔心他會不會去排擠到其他就是說非法律義務的重大計畫那當然這個部分就是我們要努力只是我們沒辦法確保說一定要確保\n730666\t758909\t主計長主計長你要確保為什麼要講那麼多除了講給曾主委聽之外就是講給你聽了從105年從105年剛才的報告裡面提的增加三十幾億都是法律義務支出有沒有去排擠原來的沒有啊沒有排擠原來的我講這麼多其實是講給你聽的知道嗎\n760841\t762241\t就是沒有排擠原來的是新增的\n790983\t804881\t我上次也有提到政府超徵稅收幾千億我們只不過是就這個金髮補償來說二十幾億而已以上\n","txt":"主席、各位委員,有請曾主委。有請曾主委。還有行政院主計總署的副主席長。行政院主計副主席長。謝謝。那個也請原民會的主計室主任。對,主計室主任。好。好,曾主委。那個馬沙魯。馬沙魯,我也好。我好。我好。\n今天你的報告裡面第一章就呈現出從105年到今年度113年度預算成長在112年度突破110然後這個113年度\n總共從105到113年度總共增加了34.6億這個主計長我先問主計主任主計主任委員好知道為什麼會成長這麼多嗎成長的項目大概有進法補償這個項目是你知道這個好來我來說\n絕大部分都是法律義務支出才增加的當然有一些是經過多年多年的爭取我們看這個104年7月1號博物館法第6條是本席在教育文化委員會審查博物館法的時候特別要求增加第6條要設置原住民族\n博物館所以開始籌編經費開始從一直到今年才籌編比較多的經費以往都是一些規劃的什麼那些都所以這是法律義務支出進法補償條例剛才這個主任有提到這是104年12月18號立法院三讀通過所以要感謝簡東明委員\n更要感謝高金素美召委當時在草野協商的時候一樣是我們柯總召不同意臨門一角這個有一些故事說來話長所以105年1月6號公布施行就要開始編列相關的這些預算\n當然這些預算不應該編列在原民會照理應該要編列在農業部現在農業部才是符合原住民族基本法第21條的規定但是我們還是編在原民會所以113年6月10日立法院表決三讀通過當然要編列這是法例一無之處\n我們看這個原住民族語言發展法106年6月44號公布這裡面就特別要編列經費然後也要成立已發基金會也要編列經費然後呢29條政府每年因寬裂預算推動本法所定各項原住民族語言發展措施所以就開始逐年的編列\n原住民族語言的經費。」這個都是法律義務支出原住民族教育法我們高精素美在教育文化委員會擔任召委設法也是困難重重的困難重重的在沒有行政院版本的情況之下在教育文化委員會\n非常困難的當時也要謝謝這個我們今天剛來的宗嘉賓當初他在教育文化委員會也有提出草案我沒有忘記你所以這個部分也是一樣法律義務之初我只是舉一條原住民族教育法第5條舉一條原住民族的知識\n知識體系建構原住民族知識體系中長程企劃。」所以從109年開始編預算到113年度編的非常高的預算一億四千多萬元這是113年度所以我們原住民族的權益尤其是預算就是要透過法律\n透過法例所以這個部分的我們看原住民族基本法20條政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利我們去講土地為什麼提還是要我們的土地啊被日本日記時代日本蛛絲會社劃為這個日本蛛絲會社的土地\n日本敗戰之後回到日本他有沒有把這個土地帶回日本了沒有啊帶不走嘛所以台糖中華民國政府成立了台糖台糖公司接收了這個土地我們原住民族的土地從民國35年就開始繳租金給台糖繳到現在還在繳啊在洋人府的時代\n嫁過了一批本席當立委之後從107開始我就開始質詢協調從107、108不是只有一張一張還不夠到109、110、111、112不斷的質詢協調\n台糖公司、協調經濟部、協調行政院、協調組織總署光這個就三大章了這個協調才推動返還行政院才同意編列所以在113年度先編列了5000多萬114年度還要繼續編列所以原住民族的預算的爭取\n很多都是要透過法例然後有的部分是要怎麼樣去透過我們原住民族的相關的這些轉型正義這個就是轉型正義之一我們看這個花東基金花東基金很重要的意他說落實公務為主基金為輔但是有了花東基金\n過去原民會本來有編列部落基會所經費有了花東基金之後全部推給花東基金事實上是違反了公務為主、基金為輔所以本席就開始協調國發會開始協調行政院開始協調組織總署所以行政院就同意認定一個花東第七原住民族部落基會所行動計劃\n就是要人民會增加人民會的遺跡部落計畫的經費總共4億多的經費當然今年113年度編的比較少而且這個部分下次還有空的時候還可以再談這裡面是不足的地方我們看這個\n都會區,今天要談到都會區過去在都會區政府,台灣省政府的時代投入了很多如果我們現在所知道的屏東的文化會館當初台灣省政府我在當副局長的時候爭取台灣省政府主計總署的經費大溪的桃園大溪不是有個文化會館嗎\n李修連當縣長的時候我去爭取主計總署的經費就畫了一個縣級的叫文化會館鄉鎮級的以族群為主叫文物館所以才會有這個從基隆、台北市、新北市到桃園、到台中、到屏東都有這個文化會館是這樣來的\n然後各鄉鎮有一些族群的有這個文物館唯一沒有促成的是哪裡呢?亞美族的我們經費有給啊但是沒有促成那這個售來化廠所以這個經費族群主流化我就開始協調爭取召開過多次的協調會所以行政院終於合定\n族群主流化公共空間的計畫所以在113年度開始有了這個經費所以這個我是舉這些例子要讓曾主委要讓我們所有的同仁要繼續努力所以這次的禁法補償絕對不可以擠壓現有的預算全部都要額度外的預算\n這是基本因為它是法律義務支出啊沒有人要去擠壓現有的預算所以上次在這個我們韓院長在主持\n協調的時候因為你出任到這個職務不怪你所以這個部分要往這方向去努力共同的努力當然有一些小額的我這邊就沒有寫我今天都是擠這個比較大額的所以有一些經費原民會該不該編?有的不該編啊主計長\n像這個總統府設了原住民族歷史正義轉型正義委員會這個預算為什麼不編在總統府呢編在人民會莫名其妙我當公務員30年了從來也沒有看過這種的對不對總統府還缺錢嗎\n你要回應就是說我們跟原住民相關的預算現在原民會可以比較看出他的全貌那當然就是說我們這個法律義務的經費當然依法就是要編列但是我們只是擔心他會不會去排擠到其他就是說非法律義務的重大計畫那當然這個部分就是我們要努力只是我們沒辦法確保說一定要確保\n主計長主計長你要確保為什麼要講那麼多除了講給曾主委聽之外就是講給你聽了從105年從105年剛才的報告裡面提的增加三十幾億都是法律義務支出有沒有去排擠原來的沒有啊沒有排擠原來的我講這麼多其實是講給你聽的知道嗎\n就是沒有排擠原來的是新增的\n我上次也有提到政府超徵稅收幾千億我們只不過是就這個金髮補償來說二十幾億而已以上\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.894 --> 00:42.052\n主席、各位委員,有請曾主委。有請曾主委。還有行政院主計總署的副主席長。行政院主計副主席長。謝謝。那個也請原民會的主計室主任。對,主計室主任。好。好,曾主委。那個馬沙魯。馬沙魯,我也好。我好。我好。\n\n00:44.799 --> 00:56.227\n今天你的報告裡面第一章就呈現出從105年到今年度113年度預算成長在112年度突破110然後這個113年度\n\n01:08.643 --> 01:31.137\n總共從105到113年度總共增加了34.6億這個主計長我先問主計主任主計主任委員好知道為什麼會成長這麼多嗎成長的項目大概有進法補償這個項目是你知道這個好來我來說\n\n01:37.843 --> 02:05.984\n絕大部分都是法律義務支出才增加的當然有一些是經過多年多年的爭取我們看這個104年7月1號博物館法第6條是本席在教育文化委員會審查博物館法的時候特別要求增加第6條要設置原住民族\n\n02:06.912 --> 02:35.466\n博物館所以開始籌編經費開始從一直到今年才籌編比較多的經費以往都是一些規劃的什麼那些都所以這是法律義務支出進法補償條例剛才這個主任有提到這是104年12月18號立法院三讀通過所以要感謝簡東明委員\n\n02:36.738 --> 03:00.787\n更要感謝高金素美召委當時在草野協商的時候一樣是我們柯總召不同意臨門一角這個有一些故事說來話長所以105年1月6號公布施行就要開始編列相關的這些預算\n\n03:02.126 --> 03:29.638\n當然這些預算不應該編列在原民會照理應該要編列在農業部現在農業部才是符合原住民族基本法第21條的規定但是我們還是編在原民會所以113年6月10日立法院表決三讀通過當然要編列這是法例一無之處\n\n03:32.113 --> 04:01.063\n我們看這個原住民族語言發展法106年6月44號公布這裡面就特別要編列經費然後也要成立已發基金會也要編列經費然後呢29條政府每年因寬裂預算推動本法所定各項原住民族語言發展措施所以就開始逐年的編列\n\n04:02.409 --> 04:25.405\n原住民族語言的經費。」這個都是法律義務支出原住民族教育法我們高精素美在教育文化委員會擔任召委設法也是困難重重的困難重重的在沒有行政院版本的情況之下在教育文化委員會\n\n04:27.215 --> 04:50.271\n非常困難的當時也要謝謝這個我們今天剛來的宗嘉賓當初他在教育文化委員會也有提出草案我沒有忘記你所以這個部分也是一樣法律義務之初我只是舉一條原住民族教育法第5條舉一條原住民族的知識\n\n04:51.919 --> 05:19.859\n知識體系建構原住民族知識體系中長程企劃。」所以從109年開始編預算到113年度編的非常高的預算一億四千多萬元這是113年度所以我們原住民族的權益尤其是預算就是要透過法律\n\n05:21.392 --> 05:44.808\n透過法例所以這個部分的我們看原住民族基本法20條政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利我們去講土地為什麼提還是要我們的土地啊被日本日記時代日本蛛絲會社劃為這個日本蛛絲會社的土地\n\n05:50.956 --> 06:20.456\n日本敗戰之後回到日本他有沒有把這個土地帶回日本了沒有啊帶不走嘛所以台糖中華民國政府成立了台糖台糖公司接收了這個土地我們原住民族的土地從民國35年就開始繳租金給台糖繳到現在還在繳啊在洋人府的時代\n\n06:22.054 --> 06:28.319\n嫁過了一批本席當立委之後從107開始我就開始質詢協調從107、108不是只有一張一張還不夠到109、110、111、112不斷的質詢協調\n\n06:48.255 --> 07:15.513\n台糖公司、協調經濟部、協調行政院、協調組織總署光這個就三大章了這個協調才推動返還行政院才同意編列所以在113年度先編列了5000多萬114年度還要繼續編列所以原住民族的預算的爭取\n\n07:17.179 --> 07:45.299\n很多都是要透過法例然後有的部分是要怎麼樣去透過我們原住民族的相關的這些轉型正義這個就是轉型正義之一我們看這個花東基金花東基金很重要的意他說落實公務為主基金為輔但是有了花東基金\n\n07:46.381 --> 08:13.831\n過去原民會本來有編列部落基會所經費有了花東基金之後全部推給花東基金事實上是違反了公務為主、基金為輔所以本席就開始協調國發會開始協調行政院開始協調組織總署所以行政院就同意認定一個花東第七原住民族部落基會所行動計劃\n\n08:15.663 --> 08:42.170\n就是要人民會增加人民會的遺跡部落計畫的經費總共4億多的經費當然今年113年度編的比較少而且這個部分下次還有空的時候還可以再談這裡面是不足的地方我們看這個\n\n08:44.005 --> 09:12.135\n都會區,今天要談到都會區過去在都會區政府,台灣省政府的時代投入了很多如果我們現在所知道的屏東的文化會館當初台灣省政府我在當副局長的時候爭取台灣省政府主計總署的經費大溪的桃園大溪不是有個文化會館嗎\n\n09:14.212 --> 09:42.902\n李修連當縣長的時候我去爭取主計總署的經費就畫了一個縣級的叫文化會館鄉鎮級的以族群為主叫文物館所以才會有這個從基隆、台北市、新北市到桃園、到台中、到屏東都有這個文化會館是這樣來的\n\n09:44.076 --> 10:08.802\n然後各鄉鎮有一些族群的有這個文物館唯一沒有促成的是哪裡呢?亞美族的我們經費有給啊但是沒有促成那這個售來化廠所以這個經費族群主流化我就開始協調爭取召開過多次的協調會所以行政院終於合定\n\n10:09.847 --> 10:37.288\n族群主流化公共空間的計畫所以在113年度開始有了這個經費所以這個我是舉這些例子要讓曾主委要讓我們所有的同仁要繼續努力所以這次的禁法補償絕對不可以擠壓現有的預算全部都要額度外的預算\n\n10:38.681 --> 10:50.610\n這是基本因為它是法律義務支出啊沒有人要去擠壓現有的預算所以上次在這個我們韓院長在主持\n\n10:52.286 --> 11:12.770\n協調的時候因為你出任到這個職務不怪你所以這個部分要往這方向去努力共同的努力當然有一些小額的我這邊就沒有寫我今天都是擠這個比較大額的所以有一些經費原民會該不該編?有的不該編啊主計長\n\n11:19.474 --> 11:34.499\n像這個總統府設了原住民族歷史正義轉型正義委員會這個預算為什麼不編在總統府呢編在人民會莫名其妙我當公務員30年了從來也沒有看過這種的對不對總統府還缺錢嗎\n\n11:41.279 --> 12:09.866\n你要回應就是說我們跟原住民相關的預算現在原民會可以比較看出他的全貌那當然就是說我們這個法律義務的經費當然依法就是要編列但是我們只是擔心他會不會去排擠到其他就是說非法律義務的重大計畫那當然這個部分就是我們要努力只是我們沒辦法確保說一定要確保\n\n12:10.666 --> 12:38.909\n主計長主計長你要確保為什麼要講那麼多除了講給曾主委聽之外就是講給你聽了從105年從105年剛才的報告裡面提的增加三十幾億都是法律義務支出有沒有去排擠原來的沒有啊沒有排擠原來的我講這麼多其實是講給你聽的知道嗎\n\n12:40.841 --> 12:42.241\n就是沒有排擠原來的是新增的\n\n13:10.983 --> 13:24.881\n我上次也有提到政府超徵稅收幾千億我們只不過是就這個金髮補償來說二十幾億而已以上\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.894,"end":42.052,"text":"主席、各位委員,有請曾主委。有請曾主委。還有行政院主計總署的副主席長。行政院主計副主席長。謝謝。那個也請原民會的主計室主任。對,主計室主任。好。好,曾主委。那個馬沙魯。馬沙魯,我也好。我好。我好。"},{"start":44.799,"end":56.227,"text":"今天你的報告裡面第一章就呈現出從105年到今年度113年度預算成長在112年度突破110然後這個113年度"},{"start":68.643,"end":91.137,"text":"總共從105到113年度總共增加了34.6億這個主計長我先問主計主任主計主任委員好知道為什麼會成長這麼多嗎成長的項目大概有進法補償這個項目是你知道這個好來我來說"},{"start":97.843,"end":125.984,"text":"絕大部分都是法律義務支出才增加的當然有一些是經過多年多年的爭取我們看這個104年7月1號博物館法第6條是本席在教育文化委員會審查博物館法的時候特別要求增加第6條要設置原住民族"},{"start":126.912,"end":155.466,"text":"博物館所以開始籌編經費開始從一直到今年才籌編比較多的經費以往都是一些規劃的什麼那些都所以這是法律義務支出進法補償條例剛才這個主任有提到這是104年12月18號立法院三讀通過所以要感謝簡東明委員"},{"start":156.738,"end":180.787,"text":"更要感謝高金素美召委當時在草野協商的時候一樣是我們柯總召不同意臨門一角這個有一些故事說來話長所以105年1月6號公布施行就要開始編列相關的這些預算"},{"start":182.126,"end":209.638,"text":"當然這些預算不應該編列在原民會照理應該要編列在農業部現在農業部才是符合原住民族基本法第21條的規定但是我們還是編在原民會所以113年6月10日立法院表決三讀通過當然要編列這是法例一無之處"},{"start":212.113,"end":241.063,"text":"我們看這個原住民族語言發展法106年6月44號公布這裡面就特別要編列經費然後也要成立已發基金會也要編列經費然後呢29條政府每年因寬裂預算推動本法所定各項原住民族語言發展措施所以就開始逐年的編列"},{"start":242.409,"end":265.405,"text":"原住民族語言的經費。」這個都是法律義務支出原住民族教育法我們高精素美在教育文化委員會擔任召委設法也是困難重重的困難重重的在沒有行政院版本的情況之下在教育文化委員會"},{"start":267.215,"end":290.271,"text":"非常困難的當時也要謝謝這個我們今天剛來的宗嘉賓當初他在教育文化委員會也有提出草案我沒有忘記你所以這個部分也是一樣法律義務之初我只是舉一條原住民族教育法第5條舉一條原住民族的知識"},{"start":291.919,"end":319.859,"text":"知識體系建構原住民族知識體系中長程企劃。」所以從109年開始編預算到113年度編的非常高的預算一億四千多萬元這是113年度所以我們原住民族的權益尤其是預算就是要透過法律"},{"start":321.392,"end":344.808,"text":"透過法例所以這個部分的我們看原住民族基本法20條政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利我們去講土地為什麼提還是要我們的土地啊被日本日記時代日本蛛絲會社劃為這個日本蛛絲會社的土地"},{"start":350.956,"end":380.456,"text":"日本敗戰之後回到日本他有沒有把這個土地帶回日本了沒有啊帶不走嘛所以台糖中華民國政府成立了台糖台糖公司接收了這個土地我們原住民族的土地從民國35年就開始繳租金給台糖繳到現在還在繳啊在洋人府的時代"},{"start":382.054,"end":388.319,"text":"嫁過了一批本席當立委之後從107開始我就開始質詢協調從107、108不是只有一張一張還不夠到109、110、111、112不斷的質詢協調"},{"start":408.255,"end":435.513,"text":"台糖公司、協調經濟部、協調行政院、協調組織總署光這個就三大章了這個協調才推動返還行政院才同意編列所以在113年度先編列了5000多萬114年度還要繼續編列所以原住民族的預算的爭取"},{"start":437.179,"end":465.299,"text":"很多都是要透過法例然後有的部分是要怎麼樣去透過我們原住民族的相關的這些轉型正義這個就是轉型正義之一我們看這個花東基金花東基金很重要的意他說落實公務為主基金為輔但是有了花東基金"},{"start":466.381,"end":493.831,"text":"過去原民會本來有編列部落基會所經費有了花東基金之後全部推給花東基金事實上是違反了公務為主、基金為輔所以本席就開始協調國發會開始協調行政院開始協調組織總署所以行政院就同意認定一個花東第七原住民族部落基會所行動計劃"},{"start":495.663,"end":522.17,"text":"就是要人民會增加人民會的遺跡部落計畫的經費總共4億多的經費當然今年113年度編的比較少而且這個部分下次還有空的時候還可以再談這裡面是不足的地方我們看這個"},{"start":524.005,"end":552.135,"text":"都會區,今天要談到都會區過去在都會區政府,台灣省政府的時代投入了很多如果我們現在所知道的屏東的文化會館當初台灣省政府我在當副局長的時候爭取台灣省政府主計總署的經費大溪的桃園大溪不是有個文化會館嗎"},{"start":554.212,"end":582.902,"text":"李修連當縣長的時候我去爭取主計總署的經費就畫了一個縣級的叫文化會館鄉鎮級的以族群為主叫文物館所以才會有這個從基隆、台北市、新北市到桃園、到台中、到屏東都有這個文化會館是這樣來的"},{"start":584.076,"end":608.802,"text":"然後各鄉鎮有一些族群的有這個文物館唯一沒有促成的是哪裡呢?亞美族的我們經費有給啊但是沒有促成那這個售來化廠所以這個經費族群主流化我就開始協調爭取召開過多次的協調會所以行政院終於合定"},{"start":609.847,"end":637.288,"text":"族群主流化公共空間的計畫所以在113年度開始有了這個經費所以這個我是舉這些例子要讓曾主委要讓我們所有的同仁要繼續努力所以這次的禁法補償絕對不可以擠壓現有的預算全部都要額度外的預算"},{"start":638.681,"end":650.61,"text":"這是基本因為它是法律義務支出啊沒有人要去擠壓現有的預算所以上次在這個我們韓院長在主持"},{"start":652.286,"end":672.77,"text":"協調的時候因為你出任到這個職務不怪你所以這個部分要往這方向去努力共同的努力當然有一些小額的我這邊就沒有寫我今天都是擠這個比較大額的所以有一些經費原民會該不該編?有的不該編啊主計長"},{"start":679.474,"end":694.499,"text":"像這個總統府設了原住民族歷史正義轉型正義委員會這個預算為什麼不編在總統府呢編在人民會莫名其妙我當公務員30年了從來也沒有看過這種的對不對總統府還缺錢嗎"},{"start":701.279,"end":729.866,"text":"你要回應就是說我們跟原住民相關的預算現在原民會可以比較看出他的全貌那當然就是說我們這個法律義務的經費當然依法就是要編列但是我們只是擔心他會不會去排擠到其他就是說非法律義務的重大計畫那當然這個部分就是我們要努力只是我們沒辦法確保說一定要確保"},{"start":730.666,"end":758.909,"text":"主計長主計長你要確保為什麼要講那麼多除了講給曾主委聽之外就是講給你聽了從105年從105年剛才的報告裡面提的增加三十幾億都是法律義務支出有沒有去排擠原來的沒有啊沒有排擠原來的我講這麼多其實是講給你聽的知道嗎"},{"start":760.841,"end":762.241,"text":"就是沒有排擠原來的是新增的"},{"start":790.983,"end":804.881,"text":"我上次也有提到政府超徵稅收幾千億我們只不過是就這個金髮補償來說二十幾億而已以上"}]}}}}