{"id":153983,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba07710b27f1cbaf29e560592432c08898e1d141634ad16f55f70d53a0d6a0ba6b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:37:43 - 11:46:14","影片長度":"00:08:31","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:37:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:46:14+08:00","duration":511,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時37分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作伙伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請原民會曾主任委員和主計總處陳副主計長。"],["主席：有請曾主任委員和陳副主計長。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好，雖然我們相識多年，過去也曾是同事，但是今天我們的位子，我必須就政府的施政來質詢你，請問主委，你什麼時候到任？"],["曾主任委員智勇：520。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你之前就已經知道要到原民會嗎？多久之前知道？1個月？還是半年前？"],["曾主任委員智勇：520之前一點點的時間。"],["鍾委員佳濱：陳副主計長，一般我們政府明年度的概算籌編從什麼時候開始？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們從3月開始就進行總體供需的估測，我們5月17日就把額度匡列給各個部會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：5月17日就把額度匡列給各個部會，請問主委，5月17日你人在哪裡？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還沒有來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以主計總處在做明年度政府總預算概算匡列的時候，你到任之後就只能接受這個匡列的預算額度來進行分配，是不是這樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：您受卓院長邀請來擔任這個職務，我看到今天你是報告賴清德總統在原住民的政見，你接到原住民政見，這是總統開出來的支票，支票要兌現嘛！你開始去盤點要落實這些總統在原住民方面的政見，你需要多少年、用多少預算來執行，有沒有開始進行盤點？"],["曾主任委員智勇：開始盤點是需要很多的經費，而且不是一、二年就可以做的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是一年、二年就可以完成啦！但是盤點政見落實需要的預算是你的義務，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你也必須去盤點這每一年每一年，假設未來4年你擔任主委，要落實總統的政見需要用多少預算，你要把它盤點出來，是不是這樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問你有開始就明年度在既有的框架之內，你開始覺得在內容上可以去落實賴總統的哪些政見了嗎？有哪些是在你被匡列的明年度預算內可以執行的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：在明年125億元的預算裡面，我們就排列優先順序來進行資源分配。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當明年度我再跟你請教這個問題的時候，我就要跟你問出匡列多少預算、落實賴總統哪些預算，在第一年可以做到什麼程度，你要有所準備。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來請教副主計長，這是憲法第七十條，熟悉吧！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主計總處在朝野協商的時候經常都會告訴我們，立法院對於行政院所提預算案不得為增加支出之提議，是不是這樣？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，在審查預算當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在大法官釋字第264號提到，為了防止政府預算膨脹致人民負擔增加，你認為我們立法院是不是要為人民看緊荷包？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：立法院有立法院的職權。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們也不宜去增加人民的負擔，在民國79年的時候，立法院曾經通過一個決議要加發半個月公教人員獎金，但是大法官認為這是為增加支出之提議，與憲法牴觸，所以就無效。在釋字第391號，1995年的時候，它不是直接增加預算額度，總額不變，而是挪用科目，請問副主計長，這樣的方式有沒有牴觸大法官的解釋？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：審查預算的時候，如果有移動增減，當然就違背第391號解釋。"],["鍾委員佳濱：原因是什麼？是不是這樣的話，政策成敗無所歸屬，責任政治難以確立，是不是這樣子？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，它的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：預算籌編權是行政權，行政權要對這樣的預算執行後果負責，如果由立法院任意的挪調而不是刪減，那就無法確認責任政治，你認為這是不是釋字第391號的解釋內容？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，這是它的解釋內容。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，為了落實這件事情，我們1998年是不是有修預算法？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，預算法有修正。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。2019年新增訂財政紀律法，預算法第九十一條：「立法委員所提法律案大幅增加歲出或減少歲入者，應先徵詢行政院之意見，指明彌補資金之來源」，這是預算法第九十一條所明定。2019年我們新訂的財政紀律法也特別強調，中央政府包括機關以及立法委員所提的法律案，如果會大幅的增加政府的歲出或減少歲入時，應先具體指明彌補資金之來源。請問您在主計總處任職這麼久的期間，2019年之前你有沒有經歷過，曾經有立法院透過法律提案的方式，就是跟財政紀律法所相違的，有沒有發生過這樣的情況？就是透過立法案、法律案的立法來增加政府的支出，有沒有？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：透過立法案增加……"],["鍾委員佳濱：透過立法案增加政府的支出。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：有啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：2019年之前有，對不對？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這也是為什麼我們2019年要訂定財政紀律法，由立法院通過自我約束，不得以法律案的方式立法來增加政府的支出，除非你有具體指明彌補資金的來源，是不是這樣子？","好，我們請曾主委，其實過去我們談到禁伐補償，我記得那時候我們是同事，那時候在屏東縣，我們是不是率全國之先的推出禁伐補償？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那時候你是支持嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你那時擔任什麼職務？"],["曾主任委員智勇：原民處處長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那時老闆是誰？縣長是誰？"],["曾主任委員智勇：曹啟鴻縣長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：曹啟鴻縣長有指示你要做這件事情嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，我們一起和族人討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你們也編列了預算嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：預算送到屏東縣議會有沒有得到支持？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有，所以屏東縣議會有沒有刪減？"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有增加？"],["曾主任委員智勇：也沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它尊重行政部門所提出的施政計畫，全數通過，好，這就是我們今天要提的，如果按照今天通過的，本來原民會2023年的禁伐補償預算是10.5億元，但是2024年因為把基金拿掉，全部納入公務預算，所以預算變成21億元。2025年為了執行所通過的立法案需要52.15億元，請問主委，你有時間去籌措財源嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：52.15億元當然會壓縮……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你5月20日就任，我們的預算概算5月17日就已經匡列給原民會，你有辦法增加嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是非常有難度啦！但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問副主計長，請問此項新增法律案大幅增加支出，有沒有先問過行政院的意見？你們有沒有被徵詢過？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：主計總處是沒有被徵詢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們有沒有找到財源？目前找到了沒有？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：目前不確定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前不確定，好，來，最後的結論，因為主席站起來了。我要跟大家說的是，2024年原民會的公務預算支出是125.3億元，如果以禁伐補償來講，它占了42%。客委會的主委在那裡看了可能要掉眼淚，它全年度的預算是40億元，禁伐補償是它年度總預算的130%。新住民的年度總預算是4億2,000萬元，我們這次所立法要增加的額度是它的百分比一千二百四十七。主委，你現在責任很重大，為了要實現禁伐補償和增進對原住民的照顧和他們對環境所付出的貢獻，希望你下次能夠提出原民會要怎麼樣透過土地的維護來創造出政府的收入，包括碳權及各項的收盈能力，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：用此來支應未來我們所要提高的原住民的禁伐補助，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：儘量努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝鍾佳濱的質詢，謝謝。但是我要順便說一下，雖然曾主委是520之後就任的，但是行政院在5月20日的時候有發文要求重新調整預算，希望原民會在6月20日以前重新報院。也就是說，我們的禁伐補償是可以在這段時間內由曾主委來提高它的預算，這是第一點。第二點，依法禁伐補償是立法院通過的，我們通過時並沒有要求中央政府要增加預算，而中央政府今年度的預算增加了一成，總共是3兆2,000億元，3兆2,000億元對26億元的原住民禁伐補償來講是少之又少，這就要看政治的決定，這是賴清德總統和行政院長到底要不要依法行政的問題，好不好？這是我的補充說明，非常謝謝！也請主委思考一下，這是你的責任，也是你的工作，怎麼樣說服行政院長在主計總處的年度預算裡去挪動，而不是排擠原民會現在所提的預算員額，謝謝。","繼續請林倩綺委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳瑩","盧縣一","黃建賓","丁學忠","莊瑞雄"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住\n民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原\n住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推\n動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政\n部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"153983","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153983","tool":"pyannote","id":"153983-pyannote"},"job_id":"RpRZJQ1QwcF1lSWB","queued_at":"2024-06-13 12:16:56","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-13 12:16:56","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153983"},{"time":"2024-06-13 12:16:57","msg":"downloading 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\"end\": 223.123, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 223.123, \"end\": 223.143, \"score\": 0.971}]}, {\"start\": 223.883, \"end\": 241.604, \"text\": \"那麼在4-391號在1995年當中曾經他不是去直接增加預算的額度他是挪用預算總而不願下去挪用科目請問副主席長這樣的方式有沒有抵觸或者大法官的解釋\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 223.883, \"end\": 224.083, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 224.083, \"end\": 225.185, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"-\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 225.185, \"end\": 226.446, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 226.446, \"end\": 226.847, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 226.847, \"end\": 227.467, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"曾\", \"start\": 227.467, \"end\": 228.689, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 228.689, \"end\": 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237.72, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 237.72, \"end\": 238.521, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 238.521, \"end\": 238.641, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 238.641, \"end\": 238.861, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 238.861, \"end\": 239.161, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 239.161, \"end\": 239.282, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 239.282, \"end\": 239.362, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 239.362, \"end\": 239.462, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"抵\", \"start\": 239.462, \"end\": 240.223, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"觸\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 240.223, \"end\": 240.363, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 240.363, \"end\": 240.523, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 240.523, \"end\": 240.663, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 240.663, \"end\": 240.763, \"score\": 0.967}, 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\"為了落實這些事情,我們是不是在1998年修了預算法?在2019年新增訂了財政紀律法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 275.468, \"end\": 275.609, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 275.609, \"end\": 276.009, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 276.009, \"end\": 276.11, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 276.11, \"end\": 276.23, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 276.23, \"end\": 276.41, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 276.41, \"end\": 276.63, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 276.63, \"end\": 276.731, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 276.731, \"end\": 276.751, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 276.751, \"end\": 276.771, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 276.771, \"end\": 276.891, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 276.891, \"end\": 277.031, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 277.031, \"end\": 277.111, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 277.111, \"end\": 277.131, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 277.131, \"end\": 277.191, \"score\": 0.569}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 277.191, \"end\": 277.332, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 277.332, \"end\": 277.492, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 277.492, \"end\": 277.592, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 277.592, \"end\": 277.612, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 277.612, \"end\": 277.752, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"訂\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 277.752, \"end\": 277.833, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 277.833, \"end\": 277.973, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"紀\"}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 277.973, \"end\": 278.153, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 278.153, \"end\": 278.173, \"score\": 0.009}]}, {\"start\": 286.724, \"end\": 312.31, \"text\": \"在預算法91條當中,如果立法委員所提的預算案大幅增加稅出或減少稅率時應先徵詢行政院之意見並指明彌補資金之來源。這是預算法91條所明定。在2019年我們新訂的財政紀律法特別強調中央政府報告機關以及立法委員所提的法律案如果大幅增加政府的稅出或減少稅率時應先具體指明彌補資金之來源\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 286.724, \"end\": 287.024, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 287.024, \"end\": 287.504, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 287.504, \"end\": 287.824, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 287.824, \"end\": 288.284, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 288.284, \"end\": 288.404, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 288.404, \"end\": 288.504, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 288.504, \"end\": 288.664, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 288.664, 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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 507.051, \"end\": 507.091, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 507.091, \"end\": 507.271, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 507.271, \"end\": 507.472, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"順\"}, {\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 507.472, \"end\": 507.572, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 507.572, \"end\": 507.652, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 507.652, \"end\": 507.672, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,996 --> 00:00:21,939\n主席、財團委員先進、列席的政府、監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請原民會曾主任委員老楚有請曾主委還有主席總處陳副主席長陳副主席長\n\n2\n00:00:26,547 --> 00:00:54,341\n主委好,雖然我們相識多年,過去也曾同事,但是今天我們的位置我必須就政府的施政來質詢你。請問主委,你什麼時候到任?五二零你之前就已經知道要到圓明會來了嗎?多久之前知道?一個月?還是半年前?在五二零之前一點點的時間就知道。來問陳副主席長,一般我們政府的明年度的概算籌編從什麼時候開始?\n\n3\n00:00:55,954 --> 00:01:10,305\n我們從3月開始就進行總體供需的估測然後我們5月17號就把額度匡列給各個部會已經5月17號就把額度匡列給各部會了請問主委5月17號你人在哪裡\n\n4\n00:01:12,355 --> 00:01:35,307\n五月十九還沒有來還沒到所以事實上呢主計總書在做明年度政府的總預算概算的匡列的時候你到任之後就只能接受這個匡列的預算額度來進行分配是不是這樣是好那請教一下那麼您來受我們卓議院長邀請來擔任這個職務我看到今天你是報告我們賴清德總統他在原住民的政見那您\n\n5\n00:01:36,187 --> 00:01:48,396\n接到原住民政見這是總統開出的支票支票要兌現嘛那您還是去盤點說要落實這些總統的政見在原住民方面你需要多少年用多少預算來執行有沒有開始盤點了\n\n6\n00:01:49,978 --> 00:02:17,320\n現在我們跟委員報告開始盤點這個系有很多的經費而且也不是一兩年就可以做的不是一年兩年就能完成的啦但是盤點證件的落實證件需要的預算這是您的義務嘛對不對那你也必須去盤點這每一年每一年假設未來四年你擔任主委要落實總統的證件這些需要用多少預算你要把它盤點出來是不是這樣那請問您有開始就明年度\n\n7\n00:02:17,980 --> 00:02:24,424\n在既有的框架之內,你開始覺得在這內容上可以去落實賴總統的哪些政見了嗎?\n\n8\n00:02:25,666 --> 00:02:51,904\n有哪些是在你被匡列的明年度而算可以執行的?在明年125億的預算裡面我們就一些先後的優先順位要排列優先的順序來做這個支援的分配當明年度我在請教你這個問題的時候我就要跟你問出那你匡列多少預算要落實賴總統哪些預算在第一年可以做到什麼程度你要有所準備接下來副主席長來請\n\n9\n00:02:53,385 --> 00:03:19,919\n我們來看一下下一頁這是目前您對憲法規定憲法第74條熟悉吧?是經常你們在主席總書都會告訴我們在朝野協商的時候立法院對於行政院所提預算不得為增加支出之提議是不是這樣?對,對審查預算不得為增加那這當中在大法官的四字二六四當中他說為了防止政府預算膨脹致人民負擔增加你認為我們立法院是不是要為人民勘緊荷包?\n\n10\n00:03:21,769 --> 00:03:43,143\n立法院,你認為我們本院是不是要幫人民勘請荷包?立法院有立法院的資權是的,所以我們也不宜去增加人民的負擔所以當年在民國79年的時候曾經立法院通過決議要加發半個月公教人員的獎金但是大法官認為這是為增加支出之提議與憲法抵觸所以就無效了,好往下看\n\n11\n00:03:43,883 --> 00:04:01,604\n那麼在4-391號在1995年當中曾經他不是去直接增加預算的額度他是挪用預算總而不願下去挪用科目請問副主席長這樣的方式有沒有抵觸或者大法官的解釋\n\n12\n00:04:03,719 --> 00:04:31,670\n就是在審查預算的時候如果有去做移動增減那當然就有違背391號的解釋那原因是什麼?是不是說這樣的話政策成敗無所歸屬責任政治難以確立?是不是這樣子?預算籌編權是行政權那行政權要對這樣的預算的執行後果負責如果由立法院不是刪減而是任意的挪條就無法確認責任政治你認為這是四字391的解釋內容?\n\n13\n00:04:35,468 --> 00:04:38,173\n為了落實這些事情,我們是不是在1998年修了預算法?在2019年新增訂了財政紀律法\n\n14\n00:04:46,724 --> 00:05:12,310\n在預算法91條當中,如果立法委員所提的預算案大幅增加稅出或減少稅率時應先徵詢行政院之意見並指明彌補資金之來源。這是預算法91條所明定。在2019年我們新訂的財政紀律法特別強調中央政府報告機關以及立法委員所提的法律案如果大幅增加政府的稅出或減少稅率時應先具體指明彌補資金之來源\n\n15\n00:05:13,850 --> 00:05:32,241\n請問你過去在主席總署這麼久的任職期間有沒有經歷過在2019年之前曾經由立法院透過法律提案的方式跟財政局的第5條所違的有沒有這樣的一個情況發生透過立法案透過法律案的立法增加了政府的支出有沒有\n\n16\n00:05:32,912 --> 00:05:52,644\n透過立法增加政府的支出在2019年之間有對不對這也是為什麼我們2019年要開始訂定這個財政紀律法由立法院通過自我約束不得已法律案的方式立法來增加政府的支出除非你有具體指名彌補的資金來源是不是這樣子\n\n17\n00:05:54,445 --> 00:06:16,775\n好來我們邀請鄭主委來鄭主委往下一頁其實啊過去我們過去談到一個禁法補償齁我記得那時候我們是同事嘛那時候在屏東縣我們是不是率先全國之先就推出了禁法補償是那時候你是支持嗎是你擔任什麼職務嚴明初處長那你的老闆是誰你的縣長是誰曹啟宏縣長那曹啟宏縣長有指示你要做這件事情嗎\n\n18\n00:06:17,745 --> 00:06:39,895\n有,我們一起來跟我們的族人來討論好,那所以你們有編列了預算嘛是送到屏東縣議會有沒有得到支持有有所以屏東縣議會有沒有三減沒有有沒有增加也沒有他尊重我們行政部門所提出的施政計畫全數通過好,這就是我們今天所要提的如果按照今天通過的在我們原民會本來2023年我們的進法補償是10.5億\n\n19\n00:06:42,856 --> 00:07:04,071\n但是到2024年因為把基金拿掉全部納入公預算變成21億如果到2025年為了執行立法案所通過的52.15億請問主委你有時間去籌措裁員嗎?52.15億當然他會要說你5月20號就任我們的預算概算在5月17號就已經匡列給原民會了你有辦法去增加嗎?\n\n20\n00:07:05,307 --> 00:07:29,398\n我目前是有是非常有難度了,但是我來我先主計長我副總副主計長前副主計長最後一頁最後一頁請下一頁不是上一頁來請問這樣的新增法律案大幅增加支出有沒有先問過你行政院的意見?有沒有被徵詢過?主計總署是沒有被那你們有沒有找到裁員呢?目前找到了沒有?\n\n21\n00:07:30,464 --> 00:07:55,476\n目前不確定不確定好來最後結論因為主席站起來了我要跟他說的我們原民會的公務預算支出2024年是125.3億如果以進法補償來講佔了42%客委會的主委在那裡可能看到要掉眼淚他全年度預算40億進法補償是他的年度總預算130%如果是新住民的基金年度總預算的支出是4.2億我們這一次所立法增加的額度是他的1247百分比\n\n22\n00:07:57,861 --> 00:08:24,870\n好,主委你現在責任很重大為了要實現淨化補償我們能夠增進我們原住民的照顧還有增進他對環境的所付出的貢獻希望你下次能夠提出怎麼樣在原民會包括探選各項的收益能力來增加原民會可以透過這樣的土地的維護創造政府的收入可以嗎?可以用來支應我們未來所要提高的原住民的淨化補助可以嗎?盡量努力好,謝謝\n\n23\n00:08:26,129 --> 00:08:27,672\n好,非常謝謝鍾嘉斌的質詢,謝謝,但是我再順便來說一下\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7996\t21939\t主席、財團委員先進、列席的政府、監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請原民會曾主任委員老楚有請曾主委還有主席總處陳副主席長陳副主席長\n26547\t54341\t主委好,雖然我們相識多年,過去也曾同事,但是今天我們的位置我必須就政府的施政來質詢你。請問主委,你什麼時候到任?五二零你之前就已經知道要到圓明會來了嗎?多久之前知道?一個月?還是半年前?在五二零之前一點點的時間就知道。來問陳副主席長,一般我們政府的明年度的概算籌編從什麼時候開始?\n55954\t70305\t我們從3月開始就進行總體供需的估測然後我們5月17號就把額度匡列給各個部會已經5月17號就把額度匡列給各部會了請問主委5月17號你人在哪裡\n72355\t95307\t五月十九還沒有來還沒到所以事實上呢主計總書在做明年度政府的總預算概算的匡列的時候你到任之後就只能接受這個匡列的預算額度來進行分配是不是這樣是好那請教一下那麼您來受我們卓議院長邀請來擔任這個職務我看到今天你是報告我們賴清德總統他在原住民的政見那您\n96187\t108396\t接到原住民政見這是總統開出的支票支票要兌現嘛那您還是去盤點說要落實這些總統的政見在原住民方面你需要多少年用多少預算來執行有沒有開始盤點了\n109978\t137320\t現在我們跟委員報告開始盤點這個系有很多的經費而且也不是一兩年就可以做的不是一年兩年就能完成的啦但是盤點證件的落實證件需要的預算這是您的義務嘛對不對那你也必須去盤點這每一年每一年假設未來四年你擔任主委要落實總統的證件這些需要用多少預算你要把它盤點出來是不是這樣那請問您有開始就明年度\n137980\t144424\t在既有的框架之內,你開始覺得在這內容上可以去落實賴總統的哪些政見了嗎?\n145666\t171904\t有哪些是在你被匡列的明年度而算可以執行的?在明年125億的預算裡面我們就一些先後的優先順位要排列優先的順序來做這個支援的分配當明年度我在請教你這個問題的時候我就要跟你問出那你匡列多少預算要落實賴總統哪些預算在第一年可以做到什麼程度你要有所準備接下來副主席長來請\n173385\t199919\t我們來看一下下一頁這是目前您對憲法規定憲法第74條熟悉吧?是經常你們在主席總書都會告訴我們在朝野協商的時候立法院對於行政院所提預算不得為增加支出之提議是不是這樣?對,對審查預算不得為增加那這當中在大法官的四字二六四當中他說為了防止政府預算膨脹致人民負擔增加你認為我們立法院是不是要為人民勘緊荷包?\n201769\t223143\t立法院,你認為我們本院是不是要幫人民勘請荷包?立法院有立法院的資權是的,所以我們也不宜去增加人民的負擔所以當年在民國79年的時候曾經立法院通過決議要加發半個月公教人員的獎金但是大法官認為這是為增加支出之提議與憲法抵觸所以就無效了,好往下看\n223883\t241604\t那麼在4-391號在1995年當中曾經他不是去直接增加預算的額度他是挪用預算總而不願下去挪用科目請問副主席長這樣的方式有沒有抵觸或者大法官的解釋\n243719\t271670\t就是在審查預算的時候如果有去做移動增減那當然就有違背391號的解釋那原因是什麼?是不是說這樣的話政策成敗無所歸屬責任政治難以確立?是不是這樣子?預算籌編權是行政權那行政權要對這樣的預算的執行後果負責如果由立法院不是刪減而是任意的挪條就無法確認責任政治你認為這是四字391的解釋內容?\n275468\t278173\t為了落實這些事情,我們是不是在1998年修了預算法?在2019年新增訂了財政紀律法\n286724\t312310\t在預算法91條當中,如果立法委員所提的預算案大幅增加稅出或減少稅率時應先徵詢行政院之意見並指明彌補資金之來源。這是預算法91條所明定。在2019年我們新訂的財政紀律法特別強調中央政府報告機關以及立法委員所提的法律案如果大幅增加政府的稅出或減少稅率時應先具體指明彌補資金之來源\n313850\t332241\t請問你過去在主席總署這麼久的任職期間有沒有經歷過在2019年之前曾經由立法院透過法律提案的方式跟財政局的第5條所違的有沒有這樣的一個情況發生透過立法案透過法律案的立法增加了政府的支出有沒有\n332912\t352644\t透過立法增加政府的支出在2019年之間有對不對這也是為什麼我們2019年要開始訂定這個財政紀律法由立法院通過自我約束不得已法律案的方式立法來增加政府的支出除非你有具體指名彌補的資金來源是不是這樣子\n354445\t376775\t好來我們邀請鄭主委來鄭主委往下一頁其實啊過去我們過去談到一個禁法補償齁我記得那時候我們是同事嘛那時候在屏東縣我們是不是率先全國之先就推出了禁法補償是那時候你是支持嗎是你擔任什麼職務嚴明初處長那你的老闆是誰你的縣長是誰曹啟宏縣長那曹啟宏縣長有指示你要做這件事情嗎\n377745\t399895\t有,我們一起來跟我們的族人來討論好,那所以你們有編列了預算嘛是送到屏東縣議會有沒有得到支持有有所以屏東縣議會有沒有三減沒有有沒有增加也沒有他尊重我們行政部門所提出的施政計畫全數通過好,這就是我們今天所要提的如果按照今天通過的在我們原民會本來2023年我們的進法補償是10.5億\n402856\t424071\t但是到2024年因為把基金拿掉全部納入公預算變成21億如果到2025年為了執行立法案所通過的52.15億請問主委你有時間去籌措裁員嗎?52.15億當然他會要說你5月20號就任我們的預算概算在5月17號就已經匡列給原民會了你有辦法去增加嗎?\n425307\t449398\t我目前是有是非常有難度了,但是我來我先主計長我副總副主計長前副主計長最後一頁最後一頁請下一頁不是上一頁來請問這樣的新增法律案大幅增加支出有沒有先問過你行政院的意見?有沒有被徵詢過?主計總署是沒有被那你們有沒有找到裁員呢?目前找到了沒有?\n450464\t475476\t目前不確定不確定好來最後結論因為主席站起來了我要跟他說的我們原民會的公務預算支出2024年是125.3億如果以進法補償來講佔了42%客委會的主委在那裡可能看到要掉眼淚他全年度預算40億進法補償是他的年度總預算130%如果是新住民的基金年度總預算的支出是4.2億我們這一次所立法增加的額度是他的1247百分比\n477861\t504870\t好,主委你現在責任很重大為了要實現淨化補償我們能夠增進我們原住民的照顧還有增進他對環境的所付出的貢獻希望你下次能夠提出怎麼樣在原民會包括探選各項的收益能力來增加原民會可以透過這樣的土地的維護創造政府的收入可以嗎?可以用來支應我們未來所要提高的原住民的淨化補助可以嗎?盡量努力好,謝謝\n506129\t507672\t好,非常謝謝鍾嘉斌的質詢,謝謝,但是我再順便來說一下\n","txt":"主席、財團委員先進、列席的政府、監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請原民會曾主任委員老楚有請曾主委還有主席總處陳副主席長陳副主席長\n主委好,雖然我們相識多年,過去也曾同事,但是今天我們的位置我必須就政府的施政來質詢你。請問主委,你什麼時候到任?五二零你之前就已經知道要到圓明會來了嗎?多久之前知道?一個月?還是半年前?在五二零之前一點點的時間就知道。來問陳副主席長,一般我們政府的明年度的概算籌編從什麼時候開始?\n我們從3月開始就進行總體供需的估測然後我們5月17號就把額度匡列給各個部會已經5月17號就把額度匡列給各部會了請問主委5月17號你人在哪裡\n五月十九還沒有來還沒到所以事實上呢主計總書在做明年度政府的總預算概算的匡列的時候你到任之後就只能接受這個匡列的預算額度來進行分配是不是這樣是好那請教一下那麼您來受我們卓議院長邀請來擔任這個職務我看到今天你是報告我們賴清德總統他在原住民的政見那您\n接到原住民政見這是總統開出的支票支票要兌現嘛那您還是去盤點說要落實這些總統的政見在原住民方面你需要多少年用多少預算來執行有沒有開始盤點了\n現在我們跟委員報告開始盤點這個系有很多的經費而且也不是一兩年就可以做的不是一年兩年就能完成的啦但是盤點證件的落實證件需要的預算這是您的義務嘛對不對那你也必須去盤點這每一年每一年假設未來四年你擔任主委要落實總統的證件這些需要用多少預算你要把它盤點出來是不是這樣那請問您有開始就明年度\n在既有的框架之內,你開始覺得在這內容上可以去落實賴總統的哪些政見了嗎?\n有哪些是在你被匡列的明年度而算可以執行的?在明年125億的預算裡面我們就一些先後的優先順位要排列優先的順序來做這個支援的分配當明年度我在請教你這個問題的時候我就要跟你問出那你匡列多少預算要落實賴總統哪些預算在第一年可以做到什麼程度你要有所準備接下來副主席長來請\n我們來看一下下一頁這是目前您對憲法規定憲法第74條熟悉吧?是經常你們在主席總書都會告訴我們在朝野協商的時候立法院對於行政院所提預算不得為增加支出之提議是不是這樣?對,對審查預算不得為增加那這當中在大法官的四字二六四當中他說為了防止政府預算膨脹致人民負擔增加你認為我們立法院是不是要為人民勘緊荷包?\n立法院,你認為我們本院是不是要幫人民勘請荷包?立法院有立法院的資權是的,所以我們也不宜去增加人民的負擔所以當年在民國79年的時候曾經立法院通過決議要加發半個月公教人員的獎金但是大法官認為這是為增加支出之提議與憲法抵觸所以就無效了,好往下看\n那麼在4-391號在1995年當中曾經他不是去直接增加預算的額度他是挪用預算總而不願下去挪用科目請問副主席長這樣的方式有沒有抵觸或者大法官的解釋\n就是在審查預算的時候如果有去做移動增減那當然就有違背391號的解釋那原因是什麼?是不是說這樣的話政策成敗無所歸屬責任政治難以確立?是不是這樣子?預算籌編權是行政權那行政權要對這樣的預算的執行後果負責如果由立法院不是刪減而是任意的挪條就無法確認責任政治你認為這是四字391的解釋內容?\n為了落實這些事情,我們是不是在1998年修了預算法?在2019年新增訂了財政紀律法\n在預算法91條當中,如果立法委員所提的預算案大幅增加稅出或減少稅率時應先徵詢行政院之意見並指明彌補資金之來源。這是預算法91條所明定。在2019年我們新訂的財政紀律法特別強調中央政府報告機關以及立法委員所提的法律案如果大幅增加政府的稅出或減少稅率時應先具體指明彌補資金之來源\n請問你過去在主席總署這麼久的任職期間有沒有經歷過在2019年之前曾經由立法院透過法律提案的方式跟財政局的第5條所違的有沒有這樣的一個情況發生透過立法案透過法律案的立法增加了政府的支出有沒有\n透過立法增加政府的支出在2019年之間有對不對這也是為什麼我們2019年要開始訂定這個財政紀律法由立法院通過自我約束不得已法律案的方式立法來增加政府的支出除非你有具體指名彌補的資金來源是不是這樣子\n好來我們邀請鄭主委來鄭主委往下一頁其實啊過去我們過去談到一個禁法補償齁我記得那時候我們是同事嘛那時候在屏東縣我們是不是率先全國之先就推出了禁法補償是那時候你是支持嗎是你擔任什麼職務嚴明初處長那你的老闆是誰你的縣長是誰曹啟宏縣長那曹啟宏縣長有指示你要做這件事情嗎\n有,我們一起來跟我們的族人來討論好,那所以你們有編列了預算嘛是送到屏東縣議會有沒有得到支持有有所以屏東縣議會有沒有三減沒有有沒有增加也沒有他尊重我們行政部門所提出的施政計畫全數通過好,這就是我們今天所要提的如果按照今天通過的在我們原民會本來2023年我們的進法補償是10.5億\n但是到2024年因為把基金拿掉全部納入公預算變成21億如果到2025年為了執行立法案所通過的52.15億請問主委你有時間去籌措裁員嗎?52.15億當然他會要說你5月20號就任我們的預算概算在5月17號就已經匡列給原民會了你有辦法去增加嗎?\n我目前是有是非常有難度了,但是我來我先主計長我副總副主計長前副主計長最後一頁最後一頁請下一頁不是上一頁來請問這樣的新增法律案大幅增加支出有沒有先問過你行政院的意見?有沒有被徵詢過?主計總署是沒有被那你們有沒有找到裁員呢?目前找到了沒有?\n目前不確定不確定好來最後結論因為主席站起來了我要跟他說的我們原民會的公務預算支出2024年是125.3億如果以進法補償來講佔了42%客委會的主委在那裡可能看到要掉眼淚他全年度預算40億進法補償是他的年度總預算130%如果是新住民的基金年度總預算的支出是4.2億我們這一次所立法增加的額度是他的1247百分比\n好,主委你現在責任很重大為了要實現淨化補償我們能夠增進我們原住民的照顧還有增進他對環境的所付出的貢獻希望你下次能夠提出怎麼樣在原民會包括探選各項的收益能力來增加原民會可以透過這樣的土地的維護創造政府的收入可以嗎?可以用來支應我們未來所要提高的原住民的淨化補助可以嗎?盡量努力好,謝謝\n好,非常謝謝鍾嘉斌的質詢,謝謝,但是我再順便來說一下\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.996 --> 00:21.939\n主席、財團委員先進、列席的政府、監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請原民會曾主任委員老楚有請曾主委還有主席總處陳副主席長陳副主席長\n\n00:26.547 --> 00:54.341\n主委好,雖然我們相識多年,過去也曾同事,但是今天我們的位置我必須就政府的施政來質詢你。請問主委,你什麼時候到任?五二零你之前就已經知道要到圓明會來了嗎?多久之前知道?一個月?還是半年前?在五二零之前一點點的時間就知道。來問陳副主席長,一般我們政府的明年度的概算籌編從什麼時候開始?\n\n00:55.954 --> 01:10.305\n我們從3月開始就進行總體供需的估測然後我們5月17號就把額度匡列給各個部會已經5月17號就把額度匡列給各部會了請問主委5月17號你人在哪裡\n\n01:12.355 --> 01:35.307\n五月十九還沒有來還沒到所以事實上呢主計總書在做明年度政府的總預算概算的匡列的時候你到任之後就只能接受這個匡列的預算額度來進行分配是不是這樣是好那請教一下那麼您來受我們卓議院長邀請來擔任這個職務我看到今天你是報告我們賴清德總統他在原住民的政見那您\n\n01:36.187 --> 01:48.396\n接到原住民政見這是總統開出的支票支票要兌現嘛那您還是去盤點說要落實這些總統的政見在原住民方面你需要多少年用多少預算來執行有沒有開始盤點了\n\n01:49.978 --> 02:17.320\n現在我們跟委員報告開始盤點這個系有很多的經費而且也不是一兩年就可以做的不是一年兩年就能完成的啦但是盤點證件的落實證件需要的預算這是您的義務嘛對不對那你也必須去盤點這每一年每一年假設未來四年你擔任主委要落實總統的證件這些需要用多少預算你要把它盤點出來是不是這樣那請問您有開始就明年度\n\n02:17.980 --> 02:24.424\n在既有的框架之內,你開始覺得在這內容上可以去落實賴總統的哪些政見了嗎?\n\n02:25.666 --> 02:51.904\n有哪些是在你被匡列的明年度而算可以執行的?在明年125億的預算裡面我們就一些先後的優先順位要排列優先的順序來做這個支援的分配當明年度我在請教你這個問題的時候我就要跟你問出那你匡列多少預算要落實賴總統哪些預算在第一年可以做到什麼程度你要有所準備接下來副主席長來請\n\n02:53.385 --> 03:19.919\n我們來看一下下一頁這是目前您對憲法規定憲法第74條熟悉吧?是經常你們在主席總書都會告訴我們在朝野協商的時候立法院對於行政院所提預算不得為增加支出之提議是不是這樣?對,對審查預算不得為增加那這當中在大法官的四字二六四當中他說為了防止政府預算膨脹致人民負擔增加你認為我們立法院是不是要為人民勘緊荷包?\n\n03:21.769 --> 03:43.143\n立法院,你認為我們本院是不是要幫人民勘請荷包?立法院有立法院的資權是的,所以我們也不宜去增加人民的負擔所以當年在民國79年的時候曾經立法院通過決議要加發半個月公教人員的獎金但是大法官認為這是為增加支出之提議與憲法抵觸所以就無效了,好往下看\n\n03:43.883 --> 04:01.604\n那麼在4-391號在1995年當中曾經他不是去直接增加預算的額度他是挪用預算總而不願下去挪用科目請問副主席長這樣的方式有沒有抵觸或者大法官的解釋\n\n04:03.719 --> 04:31.670\n就是在審查預算的時候如果有去做移動增減那當然就有違背391號的解釋那原因是什麼?是不是說這樣的話政策成敗無所歸屬責任政治難以確立?是不是這樣子?預算籌編權是行政權那行政權要對這樣的預算的執行後果負責如果由立法院不是刪減而是任意的挪條就無法確認責任政治你認為這是四字391的解釋內容?\n\n04:35.468 --> 04:38.173\n為了落實這些事情,我們是不是在1998年修了預算法?在2019年新增訂了財政紀律法\n\n04:46.724 --> 05:12.310\n在預算法91條當中,如果立法委員所提的預算案大幅增加稅出或減少稅率時應先徵詢行政院之意見並指明彌補資金之來源。這是預算法91條所明定。在2019年我們新訂的財政紀律法特別強調中央政府報告機關以及立法委員所提的法律案如果大幅增加政府的稅出或減少稅率時應先具體指明彌補資金之來源\n\n05:13.850 --> 05:32.241\n請問你過去在主席總署這麼久的任職期間有沒有經歷過在2019年之前曾經由立法院透過法律提案的方式跟財政局的第5條所違的有沒有這樣的一個情況發生透過立法案透過法律案的立法增加了政府的支出有沒有\n\n05:32.912 --> 05:52.644\n透過立法增加政府的支出在2019年之間有對不對這也是為什麼我們2019年要開始訂定這個財政紀律法由立法院通過自我約束不得已法律案的方式立法來增加政府的支出除非你有具體指名彌補的資金來源是不是這樣子\n\n05:54.445 --> 06:16.775\n好來我們邀請鄭主委來鄭主委往下一頁其實啊過去我們過去談到一個禁法補償齁我記得那時候我們是同事嘛那時候在屏東縣我們是不是率先全國之先就推出了禁法補償是那時候你是支持嗎是你擔任什麼職務嚴明初處長那你的老闆是誰你的縣長是誰曹啟宏縣長那曹啟宏縣長有指示你要做這件事情嗎\n\n06:17.745 --> 06:39.895\n有,我們一起來跟我們的族人來討論好,那所以你們有編列了預算嘛是送到屏東縣議會有沒有得到支持有有所以屏東縣議會有沒有三減沒有有沒有增加也沒有他尊重我們行政部門所提出的施政計畫全數通過好,這就是我們今天所要提的如果按照今天通過的在我們原民會本來2023年我們的進法補償是10.5億\n\n06:42.856 --> 07:04.071\n但是到2024年因為把基金拿掉全部納入公預算變成21億如果到2025年為了執行立法案所通過的52.15億請問主委你有時間去籌措裁員嗎?52.15億當然他會要說你5月20號就任我們的預算概算在5月17號就已經匡列給原民會了你有辦法去增加嗎?\n\n07:05.307 --> 07:29.398\n我目前是有是非常有難度了,但是我來我先主計長我副總副主計長前副主計長最後一頁最後一頁請下一頁不是上一頁來請問這樣的新增法律案大幅增加支出有沒有先問過你行政院的意見?有沒有被徵詢過?主計總署是沒有被那你們有沒有找到裁員呢?目前找到了沒有?\n\n07:30.464 --> 07:55.476\n目前不確定不確定好來最後結論因為主席站起來了我要跟他說的我們原民會的公務預算支出2024年是125.3億如果以進法補償來講佔了42%客委會的主委在那裡可能看到要掉眼淚他全年度預算40億進法補償是他的年度總預算130%如果是新住民的基金年度總預算的支出是4.2億我們這一次所立法增加的額度是他的1247百分比\n\n07:57.861 --> 08:24.870\n好,主委你現在責任很重大為了要實現淨化補償我們能夠增進我們原住民的照顧還有增進他對環境的所付出的貢獻希望你下次能夠提出怎麼樣在原民會包括探選各項的收益能力來增加原民會可以透過這樣的土地的維護創造政府的收入可以嗎?可以用來支應我們未來所要提高的原住民的淨化補助可以嗎?盡量努力好,謝謝\n\n08:26.129 --> 08:27.672\n好,非常謝謝鍾嘉斌的質詢,謝謝,但是我再順便來說一下\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.996,"end":21.939,"text":"主席、財團委員先進、列席的政府、監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請原民會曾主任委員老楚有請曾主委還有主席總處陳副主席長陳副主席長"},{"start":26.547,"end":54.341,"text":"主委好,雖然我們相識多年,過去也曾同事,但是今天我們的位置我必須就政府的施政來質詢你。請問主委,你什麼時候到任?五二零你之前就已經知道要到圓明會來了嗎?多久之前知道?一個月?還是半年前?在五二零之前一點點的時間就知道。來問陳副主席長,一般我們政府的明年度的概算籌編從什麼時候開始?"},{"start":55.954,"end":70.305,"text":"我們從3月開始就進行總體供需的估測然後我們5月17號就把額度匡列給各個部會已經5月17號就把額度匡列給各部會了請問主委5月17號你人在哪裡"},{"start":72.355,"end":95.307,"text":"五月十九還沒有來還沒到所以事實上呢主計總書在做明年度政府的總預算概算的匡列的時候你到任之後就只能接受這個匡列的預算額度來進行分配是不是這樣是好那請教一下那麼您來受我們卓議院長邀請來擔任這個職務我看到今天你是報告我們賴清德總統他在原住民的政見那您"},{"start":96.187,"end":108.396,"text":"接到原住民政見這是總統開出的支票支票要兌現嘛那您還是去盤點說要落實這些總統的政見在原住民方面你需要多少年用多少預算來執行有沒有開始盤點了"},{"start":109.978,"end":137.32,"text":"現在我們跟委員報告開始盤點這個系有很多的經費而且也不是一兩年就可以做的不是一年兩年就能完成的啦但是盤點證件的落實證件需要的預算這是您的義務嘛對不對那你也必須去盤點這每一年每一年假設未來四年你擔任主委要落實總統的證件這些需要用多少預算你要把它盤點出來是不是這樣那請問您有開始就明年度"},{"start":137.98,"end":144.424,"text":"在既有的框架之內,你開始覺得在這內容上可以去落實賴總統的哪些政見了嗎?"},{"start":145.666,"end":171.904,"text":"有哪些是在你被匡列的明年度而算可以執行的?在明年125億的預算裡面我們就一些先後的優先順位要排列優先的順序來做這個支援的分配當明年度我在請教你這個問題的時候我就要跟你問出那你匡列多少預算要落實賴總統哪些預算在第一年可以做到什麼程度你要有所準備接下來副主席長來請"},{"start":173.385,"end":199.919,"text":"我們來看一下下一頁這是目前您對憲法規定憲法第74條熟悉吧?是經常你們在主席總書都會告訴我們在朝野協商的時候立法院對於行政院所提預算不得為增加支出之提議是不是這樣?對,對審查預算不得為增加那這當中在大法官的四字二六四當中他說為了防止政府預算膨脹致人民負擔增加你認為我們立法院是不是要為人民勘緊荷包?"},{"start":201.769,"end":223.143,"text":"立法院,你認為我們本院是不是要幫人民勘請荷包?立法院有立法院的資權是的,所以我們也不宜去增加人民的負擔所以當年在民國79年的時候曾經立法院通過決議要加發半個月公教人員的獎金但是大法官認為這是為增加支出之提議與憲法抵觸所以就無效了,好往下看"},{"start":223.883,"end":241.604,"text":"那麼在4-391號在1995年當中曾經他不是去直接增加預算的額度他是挪用預算總而不願下去挪用科目請問副主席長這樣的方式有沒有抵觸或者大法官的解釋"},{"start":243.719,"end":271.67,"text":"就是在審查預算的時候如果有去做移動增減那當然就有違背391號的解釋那原因是什麼?是不是說這樣的話政策成敗無所歸屬責任政治難以確立?是不是這樣子?預算籌編權是行政權那行政權要對這樣的預算的執行後果負責如果由立法院不是刪減而是任意的挪條就無法確認責任政治你認為這是四字391的解釋內容?"},{"start":275.468,"end":278.173,"text":"為了落實這些事情,我們是不是在1998年修了預算法?在2019年新增訂了財政紀律法"},{"start":286.724,"end":312.31,"text":"在預算法91條當中,如果立法委員所提的預算案大幅增加稅出或減少稅率時應先徵詢行政院之意見並指明彌補資金之來源。這是預算法91條所明定。在2019年我們新訂的財政紀律法特別強調中央政府報告機關以及立法委員所提的法律案如果大幅增加政府的稅出或減少稅率時應先具體指明彌補資金之來源"},{"start":313.85,"end":332.241,"text":"請問你過去在主席總署這麼久的任職期間有沒有經歷過在2019年之前曾經由立法院透過法律提案的方式跟財政局的第5條所違的有沒有這樣的一個情況發生透過立法案透過法律案的立法增加了政府的支出有沒有"},{"start":332.912,"end":352.644,"text":"透過立法增加政府的支出在2019年之間有對不對這也是為什麼我們2019年要開始訂定這個財政紀律法由立法院通過自我約束不得已法律案的方式立法來增加政府的支出除非你有具體指名彌補的資金來源是不是這樣子"},{"start":354.445,"end":376.775,"text":"好來我們邀請鄭主委來鄭主委往下一頁其實啊過去我們過去談到一個禁法補償齁我記得那時候我們是同事嘛那時候在屏東縣我們是不是率先全國之先就推出了禁法補償是那時候你是支持嗎是你擔任什麼職務嚴明初處長那你的老闆是誰你的縣長是誰曹啟宏縣長那曹啟宏縣長有指示你要做這件事情嗎"},{"start":377.745,"end":399.895,"text":"有,我們一起來跟我們的族人來討論好,那所以你們有編列了預算嘛是送到屏東縣議會有沒有得到支持有有所以屏東縣議會有沒有三減沒有有沒有增加也沒有他尊重我們行政部門所提出的施政計畫全數通過好,這就是我們今天所要提的如果按照今天通過的在我們原民會本來2023年我們的進法補償是10.5億"},{"start":402.856,"end":424.071,"text":"但是到2024年因為把基金拿掉全部納入公預算變成21億如果到2025年為了執行立法案所通過的52.15億請問主委你有時間去籌措裁員嗎?52.15億當然他會要說你5月20號就任我們的預算概算在5月17號就已經匡列給原民會了你有辦法去增加嗎?"},{"start":425.307,"end":449.398,"text":"我目前是有是非常有難度了,但是我來我先主計長我副總副主計長前副主計長最後一頁最後一頁請下一頁不是上一頁來請問這樣的新增法律案大幅增加支出有沒有先問過你行政院的意見?有沒有被徵詢過?主計總署是沒有被那你們有沒有找到裁員呢?目前找到了沒有?"},{"start":450.464,"end":475.476,"text":"目前不確定不確定好來最後結論因為主席站起來了我要跟他說的我們原民會的公務預算支出2024年是125.3億如果以進法補償來講佔了42%客委會的主委在那裡可能看到要掉眼淚他全年度預算40億進法補償是他的年度總預算130%如果是新住民的基金年度總預算的支出是4.2億我們這一次所立法增加的額度是他的1247百分比"},{"start":477.861,"end":504.87,"text":"好,主委你現在責任很重大為了要實現淨化補償我們能夠增進我們原住民的照顧還有增進他對環境的所付出的貢獻希望你下次能夠提出怎麼樣在原民會包括探選各項的收益能力來增加原民會可以透過這樣的土地的維護創造政府的收入可以嗎?可以用來支應我們未來所要提高的原住民的淨化補助可以嗎?盡量努力好,謝謝"},{"start":506.129,"end":507.672,"text":"好,非常謝謝鍾嘉斌的質詢,謝謝,但是我再順便來說一下"}]}}}}