{"id":154004,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154004","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba092db37520367b4898ff7e0bc1ebc50211d141634ad16f55f277aaf2a4e3413f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"12:19:00 - 12:28:01","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T12:19:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:28:01+08:00","duration":541,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":934,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（12時19分）謝謝召委，有請銓敘部張次長。"],["主席：麻煩張次長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有警政署張署長。"],["主席：警政署長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：張署長，第一次跟你請教問題。","我先請教一下次長，我看今天我們審查警察條例這個部分，如果我們單獨去提高所得替代率的一個上限到90%到95%，你不覺得這又回到年改前的狀況了嗎？"],["張次長秋元：對，我們擔心的就是這樣的狀態。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我最擔心的是什麼？剛才提到整個基金所有適用的對象應該是一致的去對待，這是整個財政規劃的核心，你如果說單單的去破壞整個基金繳費跟給付標準的一致的基本原則，比如警消人員的部分，給付的替代率你去把它增高了，但繳費沒有改變，在繳費沒有改變的情況下，其實對其他人來說，這個不對等就等同其他公務人員去補貼警消，會不會有這樣的狀況？"],["張次長秋元：會，會有這樣的狀況，所以我們今天提出建議聯席會希望可以維持現行制度。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以本席有幾個問題要來就教。今天這個案子，其實大家在講道理，牽扯到整個國家財政的問題，對於警消人員的照顧，我相信我們這些兄弟，把青春跟歲月奉獻給國家這些退休的警察和消防人員，其實對他們的照顧不是只有說加錢這件事情，加錢大家都喜歡，但問題是大家要想想看，我記得從小英政府2016年上台以後推動年金改革，推動年金改革以後，當初是說以世代正義來當一個核心，搭配許多的方向，除了這次法案的攻防點調降軍公教所得替代率，其實跟國際接軌，逐步去改革我國的各項年金制，本來一貫的政策邏輯是如此。當年修法時很重要的是修正公務人員退休資遣撫卹法，修正所得替代率的部分，目前任職滿15年所得替代率45%，之後開始每一年增加1.5，最高到35年的75%，之後開始這樣去做一個遞減，當然還有36年到40年的部分，我就暫時先不討論。以目前年金改革的結果，以113年來說，35年年資退休的所得替代率67.5%，一直到118年就變成60%，變成60%，這是當年年金改革很重要的一個結果。我記得從2017年的時候，你精算的報告結果出來以後，如果按照當時18%的優存和這麼高的所得替代率，我們當初是講到2031年，也就是民國120年時就會透支了，是不是這樣？次長。"],["張次長秋元：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，那你要想想看，改革以後銓敘部第8次的精算結果說目前公務人員退撫基金出現負數年度將會在民國140年，這遠比當初改革前整整多撐了20年。"],["張次長秋元：我們希望維持一個世代的穩定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以說啊！我們當初這樣的改革讓這筆基金可以至少多活一個世代，我以年資35年一線三星警正四階當例子，113年，現在退休的話，按照現制的所得替代率67.5%，剛你說67.5%嘛，他的月退俸差不多6萬2,897,如果到118年退休所得替代率60%的話，大概是5萬5,908。其實好景不常，我看到今天在野黨提出的這個法案，如果按照在野黨現在版本馬上通過的話，施行後馬上原地退休，一樣113年退休，一線三星四階的，他的月退俸馬上變成6萬8,952，比現制多了六千多，按照階級最高一個月還可以差別到7,700塊錢，這樣如果是40年的年資，官階不變，月退變多少？變成6萬5,226，通過新法修正以後，馬上飆到8萬0,599塊，這個產生一個什麼樣的現象？次長，這個會變成什麼現象你知道嗎？退休的人和現職的人一樣了。"],["張次長秋元：對，就是這樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：會有這種狀況，所以我請教張署長，因為這和你們最有關係，你也會退休，你們對於這個修法的態度是什麼？"],["張署長榮興：我覺得就是對於退休人員是要去照顧，但要合理的照顧，現在所得替代率增高，如果比照國軍是90%和95%，未來在所得替代率的部分是不是有討論的空間，我們會跟相關機關積極做一個協調處理，就是說不要高到90%或95%，看看有沒有這一個機制，在國家財政的這個機制裡面如果對退休人員是最好的照顧，那我們也是願意跟主管機關一起協調，把這些相關的數據做很完整的去溝通和協調來處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實我倒覺得你們最主要還是要針對現在提出的版本，退撫基金從113年開始要增加多少支出，到118年最高額到底是多少，把這些數據拿出來以後，衝擊大家才算得出來。還有很多危險的、相同的你都還沒有放進去，比如說，如果到113年，像你們所講的，初步瞭解是53億，一路到118年78億，這還沒有把消防和海巡加進來。那我要問的就是說，現在如果在警察人事條例裡面，在野黨特別去修正所得替代率的話，到最後特別法會優於普通法，你會產生一個很大的問題，你看修正的第一項第四款所得替代率裡面還有一個第五款，請次長特別注意，可怕的是它留下了一個彩蛋和地雷，如果按照整個條文到最後他會跟你講說第五款說要比照在職的同等級人員，那我的退休待遇都是比照軍職的話，那就可怕了，次長。"],["張次長秋元：財務衝擊會很大。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你感覺這樣衝擊大嗎？"],["張次長秋元：剛剛我們已經講了，今天提出來的是初估的預算，我們會再做精算。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實我在這個地方奉勸在野黨的朋友，不要以為拿到多數以後，所謂世代正義全部都把它丟到旁邊去了，這個國家是大家一起的，如果去把它做一個試算，單單把一個職別的所得替代率做這樣的提高的話，我相信民眾，尤其是現職的警察同仁都未必會接受，就像我剛剛講的，單獨去提高，繳費的部分又維持不變，這開什麼玩笑？我建議署長，你們那邊衝擊多少的部分、到何時差不多要多支出多少，然後每一個官階的部分調升的到底是有多少，所得替代率變成多少，這個資料應該很完整的在委員會裡面……"],["張署長榮興：我們再做細算，再做精算。"],["莊委員瑞雄：再做細算，讓大家可以做一個理性的討論，我相信大家都要面對社會、面對整個輿論，要理性的做一個討論，不然光這樣一個方式的話，我相信大家還沒有辦法體認到整個衝擊會有多大，好不好？謝謝。"],["張次長秋元：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。請徐欣瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"id":"154004","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154004","tool":"pyannote","id":"154004-pyannote"},"job_id":"30GamhKcroWf58bV","queued_at":"2024-06-13 12:50:18","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-13 12:50:18","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154004"},{"time":"2024-06-13 12:50:19","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba092db37520367b4898ff7e0bc1ebc50211d141634ad16f55f42ffa54afed2a8c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-13 12:50:41","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-13 12:50:42","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-13 12:50:54","msg":"status: 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{\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 201.926, \"end\": 201.946, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 201.946, \"end\": 201.966, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 201.966, \"end\": 202.046, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 202.046, \"end\": 202.186, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 202.186, \"end\": 202.206, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 202.206, \"end\": 202.466, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 202.466, \"end\": 202.486, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"穩\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 202.486, \"end\": 202.506, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 221.417, \"end\": 238.684, \"text\": \"所以說啊你說我們當初這樣的一個改革讓這筆基金可以至少多活一個世代我以年資35年一線三星警政四階當例子啦113年現在退休的位啦按照限制的所得替代率67.5剛你說67.5嘛那它的月退縫是62897那如果到118年退休所得替代率60的話\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 221.417, \"end\": 221.677, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 221.677, \"end\": 222.017, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, 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\"start\": 520.88, \"end\": 520.9, \"score\": 0.016}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 526.345, \"end\": 526.365, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"）\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 526.365, \"end\": 526.385, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:14,812 --> 00:00:43,830\n謝謝召委有請我們全序部我們張次長麻煩張次長還有我們警政署我們張署長這張署長第一次這樣跟你這樣請教一下問題那我想這個先請教一下次長就是說我看今天我們審這個警察條例這個部分如果說我們單獨去提高\n\n2\n00:00:44,534 --> 00:00:51,901\n所得替代率的一個上限到98到95%。」你不覺得這又回到年改前的狀況了嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:52,927 --> 00:01:16,489\n這我們擔心的就是這樣的狀態我最擔心的是什麼?剛剛所提到的就是說整個基金所有的適用的對象應該是一致的一個去對待這是整個財政規劃的一個核心那你如果說單單的去破壞整個基金繳費跟給付標準一致的一個基本原則你比如說警察人員的部分你給付的替代率你去把它增高了\n\n4\n00:01:17,939 --> 00:01:18,139\n二）委員\n\n5\n00:01:39,420 --> 00:02:06,566\n其實大家在講道理啦牽扯到整個國家財政的一個問題那對於警消人員的一個照顧我相信我們這些兄弟把青春跟歲月奉獻給國家這些退休的警察跟消防人員其實對他們的照顧不是只有說加錢這件事情加錢大家都喜歡但問題大家要想想看我記得我們從小英政府2016年上台以後\n\n6\n00:02:07,625 --> 00:02:09,606\n條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11\n\n7\n00:02:37,845 --> 00:02:58,599\n四十五條條文你之後開始每一年增加1.5最高到35年的75%之後開始這樣去做一個遞減當然還有36到40年這個部分我就暫時就先不討論了以目前年金改革的結果目前你看一百三十年35年人資退休的所得替代率67.567.5一直到118年你就變60%你變60%這是當年的年金改革很重要的一個結果\n\n8\n00:03:06,764 --> 00:03:16,919\n我記得從2017年的時候你精算的報告結果出來以後如果按照當時的18%的優存跟這麼高的所得地貸率我們當初是講說到2031年就是說120年的時候就會透支了是不是這樣市長\n\n9\n00:03:21,906 --> 00:03:22,506\n這我們希望維持一個世代的穩定\n\n10\n00:03:41,417 --> 00:03:58,684\n所以說啊你說我們當初這樣的一個改革讓這筆基金可以至少多活一個世代我以年資35年一線三星警政四階當例子啦113年現在退休的位啦按照限制的所得替代率67.5剛你說67.5嘛那它的月退縫是62897那如果到118年退休所得替代率60的話\n\n11\n00:04:07,507 --> 00:04:09,508\n二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具«警察人員人事條例第三\n\n12\n00:04:29,235 --> 00:04:41,827\n那他的月退金就馬上變成六萬八千九百五十二,比限制多的這六千多,按照階級最高一個月還可以差別到七千七百塊錢,這樣四十年的秘書關接不變。\n\n13\n00:04:47,572 --> 00:04:59,455\n六萬五千兩百二十六通過了新法修正以後,馬上飆到八萬零五百九十九塊。這個產生一個什麼樣的現象?就是說,處長,這個會變成什麼現象你知道嗎?退休的人,到現在限職的又怎麼樣了?\n\n14\n00:05:08,158 --> 00:05:21,335\n對,就是這樣。會有不同狀況,所以我請教啦,我要請教我們署長署長,署長我請教你就是說,因為這個跟你們最有關係啦,連你也會退休啊,所以你們到底對於這個修法的態度是什麼?\n\n15\n00:05:22,523 --> 00:05:45,882\n我覺得就是說對於照顧退休的也是要去照顧但是要合理啦要合理的一個照顧那現在的這個所得替代率現在增高就是如果比較國際是90%那未來就是說在這個所得替代率的部分是不是能夠有這些討論的空間那我們會跟相關的這個機關\n\n16\n00:05:46,963 --> 00:05:53,046\n條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議\n\n17\n00:06:12,495 --> 00:06:34,900\n其實我倒覺得啦你們最主要還是要把說針對現在提出的版本你退伍基金從113年開始你要增加多少支出到118年最高額到底是多少這課開出來之後衝擊大家才算得出來啦還有很多危險的相同的你都還沒放進去的你像比如說你都如果說到113年你像你們所講的初步了解是53億一路到118年78億這還沒有把消防跟海巡加進來喔對\n\n18\n00:06:41,741 --> 00:07:02,955\n那我要問的就是說你像比如說你現在如果在警察人事條例裡面你們特別去這個在野黨特別去修正所得替代率的話那你到最後你特別法會優於普通法你會產生一個很大的問題喔你看他修正的這個第一項第四款所得替代率裡面還有一個第五款喔我請次長你們特別去注意喔\n\n19\n00:07:03,766 --> 00:07:05,006\n二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具«警察人員人事條例第三\n\n20\n00:07:26,446 --> 00:07:30,388\n三十五條條文修正三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法律事條例修正三草案．委員\n\n21\n00:07:52,858 --> 00:07:54,819\n二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具«警察人員人事條例第三\n\n22\n00:08:10,749 --> 00:08:13,990\n對弊會接受。」這個像我剛剛講的,你單獨去提高,那你繳費的部分又維持不變,這開什麼玩笑啊?但是我建議啊,那個署長您那邊衝擊多少的部分,到時候\n\n23\n00:08:27,148 --> 00:08:40,900\n差不多多支出多少然後每一個關節的部分他調升的到底是有多少然後左右替代率然後變多少應該這個資料應該很完整的在委員會裡面再做細算大家這樣可以來做一個理性的討論我相信\n\n24\n00:08:46,345 --> 00:08:46,385\n二）委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n14812\t43830\t謝謝召委有請我們全序部我們張次長麻煩張次長還有我們警政署我們張署長這張署長第一次這樣跟你這樣請教一下問題那我想這個先請教一下次長就是說我看今天我們審這個警察條例這個部分如果說我們單獨去提高\n44534\t51901\t所得替代率的一個上限到98到95%。」你不覺得這又回到年改前的狀況了嗎?\n52927\t76489\t這我們擔心的就是這樣的狀態我最擔心的是什麼?剛剛所提到的就是說整個基金所有的適用的對象應該是一致的一個去對待這是整個財政規劃的一個核心那你如果說單單的去破壞整個基金繳費跟給付標準一致的一個基本原則你比如說警察人員的部分你給付的替代率你去把它增高了\n77939\t78139\t二）委員\n99420\t126566\t其實大家在講道理啦牽扯到整個國家財政的一個問題那對於警消人員的一個照顧我相信我們這些兄弟把青春跟歲月奉獻給國家這些退休的警察跟消防人員其實對他們的照顧不是只有說加錢這件事情加錢大家都喜歡但問題大家要想想看我記得我們從小英政府2016年上台以後\n127625\t129606\t條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11\n157845\t178599\t四十五條條文你之後開始每一年增加1.5最高到35年的75%之後開始這樣去做一個遞減當然還有36到40年這個部分我就暫時就先不討論了以目前年金改革的結果目前你看一百三十年35年人資退休的所得替代率67.567.5一直到118年你就變60%你變60%這是當年的年金改革很重要的一個結果\n186764\t196919\t我記得從2017年的時候你精算的報告結果出來以後如果按照當時的18%的優存跟這麼高的所得地貸率我們當初是講說到2031年就是說120年的時候就會透支了是不是這樣 市長\n201906\t202506\t這我們希望維持一個世代的穩定\n221417\t238684\t所以說啊你說我們當初這樣的一個改革讓這筆基金可以至少多活一個世代我以年資35年一線三星警政四階當例子啦113年現在退休的位啦按照限制的所得替代率67.5剛你說67.5嘛那它的月退縫是62897那如果到118年退休所得替代率60的話\n247507\t249508\t二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三\n269235\t281827\t那他的月退金就馬上變成六萬八千九百五十二,比限制多的這六千多,按照階級最高一個月還可以差別到七千七百塊錢,這樣四十年的秘書關接不變。\n287572\t299455\t六萬五千兩百二十六通過了新法修正以後,馬上飆到八萬零五百九十九塊。這個產生一個什麼樣的現象?就是說,處長,這個會變成什麼現象你知道嗎?退休的人,到現在限職的又怎麼樣了?\n308158\t321335\t對,就是這樣。會有不同狀況,所以我請教啦,我要請教我們署長署長,署長我請教你就是說,因為這個跟你們最有關係啦,連你也會退休啊,所以你們到底對於這個修法的態度是什麼?\n322523\t345882\t我覺得就是說對於照顧退休的也是要去照顧但是要合理啦要合理的一個照顧那現在的這個所得替代率現在增高就是如果比較國際是90%那未來就是說在這個所得替代率的部分是不是能夠有這些討論的空間那我們會跟相關的這個機關\n346963\t353046\t條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議\n372495\t394900\t其實我倒覺得啦你們最主要還是要把說針對現在提出的版本你退伍基金從113年開始你要增加多少支出到118年最高額到底是多少這課開出來之後衝擊大家才算得出來啦還有很多危險的相同的你都還沒放進去的你像比如說你都如果說到113年你像你們所講的初步了解是53億一路到118年78億這還沒有把消防跟海巡加進來喔對\n401741\t422955\t那我要問的就是說你像比如說你現在如果在警察人事條例裡面你們特別去這個在野黨特別去修正所得替代率的話那你到最後你特別法會優於普通法你會產生一個很大的問題喔你看他修正的這個第一項第四款所得替代率裡面還有一個第五款喔我請次長你們特別去注意喔\n423766\t425006\t二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三\n446446\t450388\t三十五條條文修正三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法律事條例修正三草案．委員\n472858\t474819\t二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三\n490749\t493990\t對弊會接受。」這個像我剛剛講的,你單獨去提高,那你繳費的部分又維持不變,這開什麼玩笑啊?但是我建議啊,那個署長您那邊衝擊多少的部分,到時候\n507148\t520900\t差不多多支出多少然後每一個關節的部分他調升的到底是有多少然後左右替代率然後變多少應該這個資料應該很完整的在委員會裡面再做細算大家這樣可以來做一個理性的討論我相信\n526345\t526385\t二）委員\n","txt":"謝謝召委有請我們全序部我們張次長麻煩張次長還有我們警政署我們張署長這張署長第一次這樣跟你這樣請教一下問題那我想這個先請教一下次長就是說我看今天我們審這個警察條例這個部分如果說我們單獨去提高\n所得替代率的一個上限到98到95%。」你不覺得這又回到年改前的狀況了嗎?\n這我們擔心的就是這樣的狀態我最擔心的是什麼?剛剛所提到的就是說整個基金所有的適用的對象應該是一致的一個去對待這是整個財政規劃的一個核心那你如果說單單的去破壞整個基金繳費跟給付標準一致的一個基本原則你比如說警察人員的部分你給付的替代率你去把它增高了\n二）委員\n其實大家在講道理啦牽扯到整個國家財政的一個問題那對於警消人員的一個照顧我相信我們這些兄弟把青春跟歲月奉獻給國家這些退休的警察跟消防人員其實對他們的照顧不是只有說加錢這件事情加錢大家都喜歡但問題大家要想想看我記得我們從小英政府2016年上台以後\n條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11\n四十五條條文你之後開始每一年增加1.5最高到35年的75%之後開始這樣去做一個遞減當然還有36到40年這個部分我就暫時就先不討論了以目前年金改革的結果目前你看一百三十年35年人資退休的所得替代率67.567.5一直到118年你就變60%你變60%這是當年的年金改革很重要的一個結果\n我記得從2017年的時候你精算的報告結果出來以後如果按照當時的18%的優存跟這麼高的所得地貸率我們當初是講說到2031年就是說120年的時候就會透支了是不是這樣 市長\n這我們希望維持一個世代的穩定\n所以說啊你說我們當初這樣的一個改革讓這筆基金可以至少多活一個世代我以年資35年一線三星警政四階當例子啦113年現在退休的位啦按照限制的所得替代率67.5剛你說67.5嘛那它的月退縫是62897那如果到118年退休所得替代率60的話\n二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三\n那他的月退金就馬上變成六萬八千九百五十二,比限制多的這六千多,按照階級最高一個月還可以差別到七千七百塊錢,這樣四十年的秘書關接不變。\n六萬五千兩百二十六通過了新法修正以後,馬上飆到八萬零五百九十九塊。這個產生一個什麼樣的現象?就是說,處長,這個會變成什麼現象你知道嗎?退休的人,到現在限職的又怎麼樣了?\n對,就是這樣。會有不同狀況,所以我請教啦,我要請教我們署長署長,署長我請教你就是說,因為這個跟你們最有關係啦,連你也會退休啊,所以你們到底對於這個修法的態度是什麼?\n我覺得就是說對於照顧退休的也是要去照顧但是要合理啦要合理的一個照顧那現在的這個所得替代率現在增高就是如果比較國際是90%那未來就是說在這個所得替代率的部分是不是能夠有這些討論的空間那我們會跟相關的這個機關\n條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議\n其實我倒覺得啦你們最主要還是要把說針對現在提出的版本你退伍基金從113年開始你要增加多少支出到118年最高額到底是多少這課開出來之後衝擊大家才算得出來啦還有很多危險的相同的你都還沒放進去的你像比如說你都如果說到113年你像你們所講的初步了解是53億一路到118年78億這還沒有把消防跟海巡加進來喔對\n那我要問的就是說你像比如說你現在如果在警察人事條例裡面你們特別去這個在野黨特別去修正所得替代率的話那你到最後你特別法會優於普通法你會產生一個很大的問題喔你看他修正的這個第一項第四款所得替代率裡面還有一個第五款喔我請次長你們特別去注意喔\n二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三\n三十五條條文修正三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法律事條例修正三草案．委員\n二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三\n對弊會接受。」這個像我剛剛講的,你單獨去提高,那你繳費的部分又維持不變,這開什麼玩笑啊?但是我建議啊,那個署長您那邊衝擊多少的部分,到時候\n差不多多支出多少然後每一個關節的部分他調升的到底是有多少然後左右替代率然後變多少應該這個資料應該很完整的在委員會裡面再做細算大家這樣可以來做一個理性的討論我相信\n二）委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:14.812 --> 00:43.830\n謝謝召委有請我們全序部我們張次長麻煩張次長還有我們警政署我們張署長這張署長第一次這樣跟你這樣請教一下問題那我想這個先請教一下次長就是說我看今天我們審這個警察條例這個部分如果說我們單獨去提高\n\n00:44.534 --> 00:51.901\n所得替代率的一個上限到98到95%。」你不覺得這又回到年改前的狀況了嗎?\n\n00:52.927 --> 01:16.489\n這我們擔心的就是這樣的狀態我最擔心的是什麼?剛剛所提到的就是說整個基金所有的適用的對象應該是一致的一個去對待這是整個財政規劃的一個核心那你如果說單單的去破壞整個基金繳費跟給付標準一致的一個基本原則你比如說警察人員的部分你給付的替代率你去把它增高了\n\n01:17.939 --> 01:18.139\n二）委員\n\n01:39.420 --> 02:06.566\n其實大家在講道理啦牽扯到整個國家財政的一個問題那對於警消人員的一個照顧我相信我們這些兄弟把青春跟歲月奉獻給國家這些退休的警察跟消防人員其實對他們的照顧不是只有說加錢這件事情加錢大家都喜歡但問題大家要想想看我記得我們從小英政府2016年上台以後\n\n02:07.625 --> 02:09.606\n條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11\n\n02:37.845 --> 02:58.599\n四十五條條文你之後開始每一年增加1.5最高到35年的75%之後開始這樣去做一個遞減當然還有36到40年這個部分我就暫時就先不討論了以目前年金改革的結果目前你看一百三十年35年人資退休的所得替代率67.567.5一直到118年你就變60%你變60%這是當年的年金改革很重要的一個結果\n\n03:06.764 --> 03:16.919\n我記得從2017年的時候你精算的報告結果出來以後如果按照當時的18%的優存跟這麼高的所得地貸率我們當初是講說到2031年就是說120年的時候就會透支了是不是這樣市長\n\n03:21.906 --> 03:22.506\n這我們希望維持一個世代的穩定\n\n03:41.417 --> 03:58.684\n所以說啊你說我們當初這樣的一個改革讓這筆基金可以至少多活一個世代我以年資35年一線三星警政四階當例子啦113年現在退休的位啦按照限制的所得替代率67.5剛你說67.5嘛那它的月退縫是62897那如果到118年退休所得替代率60的話\n\n04:07.507 --> 04:09.508\n二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具«警察人員人事條例第三\n\n04:29.235 --> 04:41.827\n那他的月退金就馬上變成六萬八千九百五十二,比限制多的這六千多,按照階級最高一個月還可以差別到七千七百塊錢,這樣四十年的秘書關接不變。\n\n04:47.572 --> 04:59.455\n六萬五千兩百二十六通過了新法修正以後,馬上飆到八萬零五百九十九塊。這個產生一個什麼樣的現象?就是說,處長,這個會變成什麼現象你知道嗎?退休的人,到現在限職的又怎麼樣了?\n\n05:08.158 --> 05:21.335\n對,就是這樣。會有不同狀況,所以我請教啦,我要請教我們署長署長,署長我請教你就是說,因為這個跟你們最有關係啦,連你也會退休啊,所以你們到底對於這個修法的態度是什麼?\n\n05:22.523 --> 05:45.882\n我覺得就是說對於照顧退休的也是要去照顧但是要合理啦要合理的一個照顧那現在的這個所得替代率現在增高就是如果比較國際是90%那未來就是說在這個所得替代率的部分是不是能夠有這些討論的空間那我們會跟相關的這個機關\n\n05:46.963 --> 05:53.046\n條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議\n\n06:12.495 --> 06:34.900\n其實我倒覺得啦你們最主要還是要把說針對現在提出的版本你退伍基金從113年開始你要增加多少支出到118年最高額到底是多少這課開出來之後衝擊大家才算得出來啦還有很多危險的相同的你都還沒放進去的你像比如說你都如果說到113年你像你們所講的初步了解是53億一路到118年78億這還沒有把消防跟海巡加進來喔對\n\n06:41.741 --> 07:02.955\n那我要問的就是說你像比如說你現在如果在警察人事條例裡面你們特別去這個在野黨特別去修正所得替代率的話那你到最後你特別法會優於普通法你會產生一個很大的問題喔你看他修正的這個第一項第四款所得替代率裡面還有一個第五款喔我請次長你們特別去注意喔\n\n07:03.766 --> 07:05.006\n二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具«警察人員人事條例第三\n\n07:26.446 --> 07:30.388\n三十五條條文修正三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法律事條例修正三草案．委員\n\n07:52.858 --> 07:54.819\n二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具«警察人員人事條例第三\n\n08:10.749 --> 08:13.990\n對弊會接受。」這個像我剛剛講的,你單獨去提高,那你繳費的部分又維持不變,這開什麼玩笑啊?但是我建議啊,那個署長您那邊衝擊多少的部分,到時候\n\n08:27.148 --> 08:40.900\n差不多多支出多少然後每一個關節的部分他調升的到底是有多少然後左右替代率然後變多少應該這個資料應該很完整的在委員會裡面再做細算大家這樣可以來做一個理性的討論我相信\n\n08:46.345 --> 08:46.385\n二）委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":14.812,"end":43.83,"text":"謝謝召委有請我們全序部我們張次長麻煩張次長還有我們警政署我們張署長這張署長第一次這樣跟你這樣請教一下問題那我想這個先請教一下次長就是說我看今天我們審這個警察條例這個部分如果說我們單獨去提高"},{"start":44.534,"end":51.901,"text":"所得替代率的一個上限到98到95%。」你不覺得這又回到年改前的狀況了嗎?"},{"start":52.927,"end":76.489,"text":"這我們擔心的就是這樣的狀態我最擔心的是什麼?剛剛所提到的就是說整個基金所有的適用的對象應該是一致的一個去對待這是整個財政規劃的一個核心那你如果說單單的去破壞整個基金繳費跟給付標準一致的一個基本原則你比如說警察人員的部分你給付的替代率你去把它增高了"},{"start":77.939,"end":78.139,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":99.42,"end":126.566,"text":"其實大家在講道理啦牽扯到整個國家財政的一個問題那對於警消人員的一個照顧我相信我們這些兄弟把青春跟歲月奉獻給國家這些退休的警察跟消防人員其實對他們的照顧不是只有說加錢這件事情加錢大家都喜歡但問題大家要想想看我記得我們從小英政府2016年上台以後"},{"start":127.625,"end":129.606,"text":"條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11"},{"start":157.845,"end":178.599,"text":"四十五條條文你之後開始每一年增加1.5最高到35年的75%之後開始這樣去做一個遞減當然還有36到40年這個部分我就暫時就先不討論了以目前年金改革的結果目前你看一百三十年35年人資退休的所得替代率67.567.5一直到118年你就變60%你變60%這是當年的年金改革很重要的一個結果"},{"start":186.764,"end":196.919,"text":"我記得從2017年的時候你精算的報告結果出來以後如果按照當時的18%的優存跟這麼高的所得地貸率我們當初是講說到2031年就是說120年的時候就會透支了是不是這樣 市長"},{"start":201.906,"end":202.506,"text":"這我們希望維持一個世代的穩定"},{"start":221.417,"end":238.684,"text":"所以說啊你說我們當初這樣的一個改革讓這筆基金可以至少多活一個世代我以年資35年一線三星警政四階當例子啦113年現在退休的位啦按照限制的所得替代率67.5剛你說67.5嘛那它的月退縫是62897那如果到118年退休所得替代率60的話"},{"start":247.507,"end":249.508,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":269.235,"end":281.827,"text":"那他的月退金就馬上變成六萬八千九百五十二,比限制多的這六千多,按照階級最高一個月還可以差別到七千七百塊錢,這樣四十年的秘書關接不變。"},{"start":287.572,"end":299.455,"text":"六萬五千兩百二十六通過了新法修正以後,馬上飆到八萬零五百九十九塊。這個產生一個什麼樣的現象?就是說,處長,這個會變成什麼現象你知道嗎?退休的人,到現在限職的又怎麼樣了?"},{"start":308.158,"end":321.335,"text":"對,就是這樣。會有不同狀況,所以我請教啦,我要請教我們署長署長,署長我請教你就是說,因為這個跟你們最有關係啦,連你也會退休啊,所以你們到底對於這個修法的態度是什麼?"},{"start":322.523,"end":345.882,"text":"我覺得就是說對於照顧退休的也是要去照顧但是要合理啦要合理的一個照顧那現在的這個所得替代率現在增高就是如果比較國際是90%那未來就是說在這個所得替代率的部分是不是能夠有這些討論的空間那我們會跟相關的這個機關"},{"start":346.963,"end":353.046,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":372.495,"end":394.9,"text":"其實我倒覺得啦你們最主要還是要把說針對現在提出的版本你退伍基金從113年開始你要增加多少支出到118年最高額到底是多少這課開出來之後衝擊大家才算得出來啦還有很多危險的相同的你都還沒放進去的你像比如說你都如果說到113年你像你們所講的初步了解是53億一路到118年78億這還沒有把消防跟海巡加進來喔對"},{"start":401.741,"end":422.955,"text":"那我要問的就是說你像比如說你現在如果在警察人事條例裡面你們特別去這個在野黨特別去修正所得替代率的話那你到最後你特別法會優於普通法你會產生一個很大的問題喔你看他修正的這個第一項第四款所得替代率裡面還有一個第五款喔我請次長你們特別去注意喔"},{"start":423.766,"end":425.006,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":446.446,"end":450.388,"text":"三十五條條文修正三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法律事條例修正三草案．委員"},{"start":472.858,"end":474.819,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":490.749,"end":493.99,"text":"對弊會接受。」這個像我剛剛講的,你單獨去提高,那你繳費的部分又維持不變,這開什麼玩笑啊?但是我建議啊,那個署長您那邊衝擊多少的部分,到時候"},{"start":507.148,"end":520.9,"text":"差不多多支出多少然後每一個關節的部分他調升的到底是有多少然後左右替代率然後變多少應該這個資料應該很完整的在委員會裡面再做細算大家這樣可以來做一個理性的討論我相信"},{"start":526.345,"end":526.385,"text":"二）委員"}]}}}}