{"id":154016,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0646ddc73bed2273d8ff7e0bc1ebc5021fe2aa8cbc518221f1053a2c2ab28c8d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"13:17:54 - 13:31:51","影片長度":"00:13:57","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T13:17:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T13:31:51+08:00","duration":837,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1146,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（13時18分）謝謝主席，想要請馬次長、張次長，李副人事長，然後署長也一起，既然來了，回到你們的問題，你們就主動回答。"],["馬次長士元：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我很想替他們爭取一下，大家連用個便餐的時間都沒有，實在太辛苦了。主席要不要等一下休息一下，讓他們用個餐好不好？我替他們爭取一下福利，這麼多議事工作人員，大家都辛苦。","我想任何一個退休金的制度，都是要世世代代領得到，長長久久領到老，任何一個退休金制度的設計，都應當如此。所以當我們換算，把它試比到國家的退休金制度，就應當如此，不論誰執政，基金都要永續，都要穩定，這是不論誰執政的歷史責任。因為這都要對世世代代的公務同仁，不論是軍、公、教、警消、醫護，都要一致。","在2017、2018年我擔任立委的第一屆，我真的是在面對年改，那種社會一個很大的分歧。但是社會在歷經了討論之後，我們好不容易擁有改革的成果，所以年金改革不走回頭路，世代正義絕對不能開倒車。","照顧公務人員，用數字來說實話，蔡英文總統任內是做最多的，阿扁八年調整兩次公務人員的薪資，調升了6%；馬英九八年只調一次，調了3%；蔡英文總統一樣是八年，調三次，總體對公務人員提升了11%。所以照顧公務人員，我在講不論軍、公、教、警消、醫護等等，我們都努力做更多、做更好，就以實質的調薪來講，這沒有錯嘛！","署長也在這裡，針對警消，這幾年來我們也是努力做更多、做更好。四個面向，對於薪資與津貼的調整，不論是基層員警或是國道高速公路員警，每月薪資和外勤薪資都調升。在警勤加給、重要的勤務獎勵金，乃至於超勤加班費，我們都努力調漲，在薪資跟津貼的調整，署長我沒有說錯對不對？","第二大面向，醫療與健康保障，正因為我們好不容易成立了公益信託警察醫療及照護基金，我們已經補助了5,945案，核發了1億5。正因為有這樣一個制度，我們讓醫療健康保障對於警消也做更多、做更好對不對？退休與福利保障，我們同樣方方面面去改良它，至於勤務與安全的保障，從各類保險的提升，對於各類津貼的加給，也都努力來照顧警消。","我這四大面向的整理，請問次長、署長，我都沒有說錯嘛！所以不要因為今天退休警消人員的修法有過、沒有過，就對不同意見的委員們冠上帽子，說你沒有挺這條，就是沒有照顧我們的警察人員或消防人員，我覺得這樣不對。我們衡平來看，蔡英文政府挺警消四大面向，我們真的努力做更多、做更好，我覺得這個我們要很自信的對社會來論述。","所以年改不走回頭路，我是真的認為，國民黨有11個版本的委員提案，真的恐怕是走上倒行逆施，反年改、反進步，摧毀我們正向的改革成果。我歸納了三大理由，第一、大家適用同一個基金，同一種繳費的基準，退輔的制度就應當一致，這才是公平。第二、確保基金的永續，除了要擴大照顧退休的警消人員，更要兼顧現役在服務國家人民的警消人員，這才是真正的正義。","第三、這個會期我真的很遺憾，一再看到在野黨委員慷國家之慨，提出違反憲法第七十條，或是違反大法官釋字第391號的解釋，也一再提出違反財政紀律法第五條、第七條的授權，立法委員不能為增加預算之決議、提案。如果你要提升，也應當載明它合理的財源或新增財源在哪裡，這是立法院自己修的財政紀律法，2019年新頒布的。請問我反對現在幾個修法版本的三大歸納理由，還有沒有遺漏的？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，委員掌握的資訊非常正確，我們這邊也非常同意委員對整個事情的分析，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我進入條文來論述。這是當年2017年，我們在對社會論述，排除萬難，做到了年金改革，因為連馬英九前總統都說，年改今天不做，明天就會後悔。我們基於國人平均壽命的延長，年輕人的負擔更重，所以要改；基於各項退休基金的收支失衡，破產在即，所以要改；基於年金的給付不一致，各類人員的保障水平參差不齊，所以我們要改。改的一個最重要的目標，就是落實世代正義，這是當年的論述、當年的主張。","我們克服萬難去做年金改革，我們來檢視有沒有達到改革的正向成果：從提升基金的運作永續性上來看，軍人退輔制度相對比較沒有破產的高度疑慮；教育人員的退休制度，從原本119年可能有破產之虞，因為我們改革了，它延後到133年；公務人員退休撫卹的基金，原本120年就可能破產，我們讓它延後到135年對不對？我的數字都正確嗎？如果我有錯誤，你們隨時反質詢沒有問題，OK嗎？正確嗎？"],["張次長秋元：報告委員，其實退撫基金在年改以後，財務是走向一個健康的狀態。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以這個年限我有沒有誤植？"],["張次長秋元：我們第八次的精算，退休公務人員我們會希望到140年。"],["吳委員思瑤：到140年？很好，謝謝您的指正。"],["張次長秋元：那是因為112年的個人專戶制，所以提早到135年，現在政府也努力依法在撥補，所以我們還是希望到140年。"],["吳委員思瑤：目標140年，好，謝謝您的指正，我不會覺得是反質詢，你反質詢得好，立委講不對，你就要來更正。剛剛是基金永續的年限，第二個就是實質，因為我們做了改革，可以挹注於基金的金額來看，退撫制度居然增加了633億的撥補，教育人員增加了998億，公務人員退休增加了803億。合計我們因為年改，實質減緩政府的財政壓力，而有效挹注我們的退撫基金，至今高達2,434億，我的數字正確嗎？還是更多？歡迎反質詢。"],["張次長秋元：差不多，但是我們現在的數字更高了。"],["吳委員思瑤：更高？"],["張次長秋元：更高，是2,674億。"],["吳委員思瑤：2,674億，很好，謝謝你的反質詢，讓我有更新update的機會。所以來看看臺灣因為年改，我們有實質的基金永續年限，以及我們基金的挹注財源，剛到了2,674億，很好。即便我們改了，我們砍了部分的退休金，但是實質上跟國際比一比，臺灣的實質所得替代率，仍遠高於OECD國家的平均。2022年OECD國家平均的所得替代率是61.4%，但是臺灣2022年的所得替代率，年改之後的已經砍了，還是高達69.23%。我們高於OECD國家8%，代表臺灣的退休公務人員，政府想方設法照顧退休公務人員，比國際都還努力做更多，這樣論述對吧？"],["張次長秋元：我們願意努力。"],["吳委員思瑤：願意做更多、做更好，很好，我很快的進入條文，謝謝主席。就從條文來講幾個不合理，現在國民黨11個版本，謝龍介跟丁學忠委員是到95%，另外9個版本像林思銘委員是到90%，其實都遠高於公務人員退休資遣撫卹法最高標的75%，增加20%以上，這就是一個公務人員之間的不公平。因為現在他如果停了，而且甚至增加他的所得替代率，會增加我們的退撫支出，減少收入，所以年改一場空，加速基金被掏空跟破產，在野黨能負責嗎？","我今天很謝謝看到我們銓敘部的最新資料，如果提高了，這個修法過了的話，平均以35年的年資來計的話，只要10到15年後，每年增加20億，20到29年後每年增加40億，30年後每年增加60億，對不對？這就是加速我們的破產的可能嘛！Right？歡迎反質詢。"],["張次長秋元：報告委員，其實黃國昌委員有希望我們再做精算，我們昨天晚上連夜就我們現在……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我看到你們那份資料……"],["張次長秋元：去做推估，原來我們講的每年15億減少挹注的部分，如果用50年精算，跟他現在警消占的挹注比例大概23%，這樣算下來，50年這個差距會是1,080億。"],["吳委員思瑤：1,080億？"],["張次長秋元：1,080億，這50年的……"],["吳委員思瑤：天啊！那趕快把這個正確數字，送到每一個委員手上。"],["張次長秋元：我們還要做精算，因為這是……"],["吳委員思瑤：1,080億，天啊！這是多大的一個破口。"],["張次長秋元：我們粗估的精算的一些參數。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，趕快把這個數字給所有的提案委員，如果這樣的話，基金破產，提案委員能負責嗎？立法院能負責嗎？謝謝你提供最新的資訊。好，我快結束了，不好意思主席。","我還發現一個問題，現在修法的版本，要把原本適用公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的這個抽出，用警察人員人事條例來訂定。他提高了所得替代率到95或90，但是連同每10年要遞減的那個，反而沒有放進來，對不對？所以是法律只抄半套，這是另外一個不公平、不正義，我要提出來。","而我看到，我們的退休金彈性調整機制原本就已經入法了，針對消費者物價指數，累計成長率達正、負5%的時候，每4年應予檢討，來擴大我們配合物價，定期檢討保障退休人員生活需要的權益。原本的配套改革，方方面面都非常的全面。所以我希望經過我今天的論述，也再三的謝謝幾位對我的反質詢提供更正確的數字，讓我們再一次確認年金改革不走回頭路，不能夠因為委員大家想要做好人，慷國家之慨，但是卻摧毀了改革的成果，摧毀了國家的退休基金。","如果剛剛講的50年就要增加1,080億，天啊！如果年金破產了，在野黨能負責嗎？提案的委員能負責嗎？所以我再一次論述，三大反對的理由，同一基金，同一繳費標準，退撫的制度應當一致才是公平。我們要確保基金永續，不只要照顧退休的警消，更要兼顧現役的警消，這才是真正的正義。最後，不要再提這種違反憲法，違反財政紀律法的法案了，這會拖垮國家的財政制度跟法律的秩序。","我們繼續努力，持續論述，也許我們是少數，也許會被強行通過，但是社會面的論述我們絕對不能放棄。我相信社會大眾是站在真理，站在公平正義的一方，大家加油！謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。接下來我們請林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員。","下一位我們請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"id":"154016","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154016","tool":"pyannote","id":"154016-pyannote"},"job_id":"8bCnsxLFCYCG3bAd","queued_at":"2024-06-13 14:52:13","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-13 14:52:13","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154016"},{"time":"2024-06-13 14:52:14","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0646ddc73bed2273d8ff7e0bc1ebc5021bde74b6f355ecae16df76adf96966f6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-13 14:55:29","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-13 14:55:32","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-13 14:55:45","msg":"status: 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\"start\": 111.67, \"end\": 111.69, \"score\": 0.728}]}, {\"start\": 113.047, \"end\": 128.363, \"text\": \"條文及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 113.047, \"end\": 113.067, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 113.067, \"end\": 113.307, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 113.307, \"end\": 113.508, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 113.508, \"end\": 113.728, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 113.728, \"end\": 113.748, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 113.748, \"end\": 114.088, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 114.088, \"end\": 114.108, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 836.208, \"end\": 836.228, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 836.228, \"end\": 836.248, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,735 --> 00:00:00,896\n二）委員\n\n2\n00:00:11,576 --> 00:00:33,891\n謝謝主席。想要請馬次長、張次長、李副人事長、然後署長也一起喔。既然來了,回到你們的問題,你們就主動回答。我是很想替他們爭取一下,大家連用個便餐的時間都沒有,實在太辛苦了。主席要不要等一下休息一下,讓他們用個餐。好不好,我替他們爭取一下福利。這麼多議事工作人員,大家都辛苦。好。來。\n\n3\n00:00:37,318 --> 00:00:57,996\n我想任何一個退休金的制度都是要世世代代領得到長長久久領到老任何一個退休金制度的設計都應當如此所以當我們換算到把它勢比到國家的退休金制度就應當如此嘛\n\n4\n00:00:58,817 --> 00:01:20,889\n不論誰執政基金都要永續都要穩定這是不論誰執政的歷史責任因為這都要對世世代代的公務同仁不論是軍、工、教、警消、醫護都要一致所以在2017、2018我擔任立委的第一屆\n\n5\n00:01:22,370 --> 00:01:51,690\n我真的是在面對年改的那個那種社會的一個很大的分歧但是社會在歷經了討論之後我們好不容易擁有改革的成果所以年金改革不走回頭路世代正義絕對不能開倒車下一頁照顧公務人員用數字來說實話蔡英文總統的任內是錯最多的\n\n6\n00:01:53,047 --> 00:02:08,363\n條文及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員\n\n7\n00:02:09,944 --> 00:02:20,895\n最照顧公務人員我在講不論軍公教警消醫護等等我們都努力做更多做更好就以實質的條型來講這沒有錯嘛對不對次長好下一頁\n\n8\n00:02:24,571 --> 00:02:43,039\n那署長在這裡哈針對警消這幾年來我們也是努力做更多做更好四個面向對於薪資與津貼的調整不論是基層員警或是國道高速公路的員警的每月薪資跟外勤薪資都調升\n\n9\n00:02:44,520 --> 00:03:10,158\n在緊勤加擠在重要的勤務獎勵金乃至於超勤加班費我們都努力調漲嘛在薪資跟今天的調整署長我沒有說錯嘛對不對第二大面向醫療與健康保障正因為我們好不容易成立了公益信託警察醫療及照護基金我們已經補助了5945案合法了1億5\n\n10\n00:03:14,261 --> 00:03:18,986\n三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員\n\n11\n00:03:37,205 --> 00:04:03,637\n也都努力來照顧警消。」我這四大面向的整理請問次長、署長我都沒說不對嘛所以不要因為今天對於退休警消人員的修法有過沒有過來對於不同意見的委員們冠上帽子說你沒來聽這條你就是沒照顧我們的警察人員或是消防人員我覺得這樣不對\n\n12\n00:04:04,838 --> 00:04:15,250\n我們橫憑的來看蔡英文政府停警消四大面向我們真的努力做更多做更好我覺得這個我們要很自信的對社會來論述\n\n13\n00:04:17,577 --> 00:04:34,927\n所以年改不走回頭路我是真的認為國民黨有11個版本的委員提案真的是恐怕走上倒行逆施反年改反進步摧毀我們正向的改革成果我歸納了三大理由第一個\n\n14\n00:04:36,209 --> 00:04:59,836\n大家適用同一個基金同一種繳費的基準退府的制度就應當一致這才是公平第二大理由確保基金的永續除了要擴大來照顧退休的警消人員更要兼顧現役在服務國家人民的警消人員這才是真正的正義\n\n15\n00:05:01,036 --> 00:05:22,766\n第三個這個會期我真的很遺憾一再的看到在野黨委員康國家之愷提出了違反憲法第70條或是違反大法官釋字391號的解釋也一再的提出違反財政紀律法第5條第7條的授權立法委員不能為增加預算之決議提案\n\n16\n00:05:23,826 --> 00:05:45,516\n如果你要提升也應當載明他合理的財源或新增財源在哪裡這是立法院自己修的財政紀律法2019年新頒布的所以我這三大反對現在幾個修法版本的三大歸納的理由請問我還有沒有遺漏的\n\n17\n00:05:47,849 --> 00:06:13,362\n報告委員委員掌握的資訊非常的正確那麼我們這邊也非常同意委員對整個事情的分析好那我進入條文來論述下一頁這個是當年2017年我們在對社會論述排除萬難做到了年金改革因為連馬英九前總統都說年改今天不做明天就會後悔我們基於國人平均壽命的延長年輕人的負擔更重所以要改\n\n18\n00:06:14,142 --> 00:06:40,541\n基於各項退休基金的收支失衡破產在即所以要改基於年金的給付不一致各類人員的保障水平參差不齊所以我們要改改的一個最重要的目標就是落實世代正義這是當年的論述當年的主張我們克服萬難去做年金改革下一頁好我們來檢視有沒有達到改革的正向成果\n\n19\n00:06:41,843 --> 00:06:58,094\n提升基金的運作永續性上來看,竟然退府制度相對比較沒有破產的高度疑慮。教育人員的退休制度從原本119年可能會有破產之餘,我們因為改革了,它延後到133年。\n\n20\n00:06:59,835 --> 00:07:11,225\n公務人員退休的撫恤金的基金原本120年就可能破產我們讓他延後到135年對不對我的數字都正確嗎如果我有錯誤你們隨時反質詢沒有問題OK嗎\n\n21\n00:07:14,918 --> 00:07:16,419\n二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具\n\n22\n00:07:34,556 --> 00:07:57,110\n對對那那是因為一二年的個人專務制所以提早到一百三十五年好現在政府也努力依法在撥補所以我們還是希望目標一百四十年好謝謝您的指正我不會覺得是反質詢你反質詢的好立委講不對你就要來更正下一個呢剛剛是基金的永續的年限第二個就是實質因為我們\n\n23\n00:08:00,034 --> 00:08:22,172\n做了改革可以挹注於基金的金額來看軍人退府制度增加了633億的撥補教育人員增加了998億公務人員退休增加了803億合計我們因為年改實質的減緩政府財政壓力來有效挹注我們的退府基金高達2434億至今我的數字正確嗎還是更多來歡迎反諮詢\n\n24\n00:08:29,534 --> 00:08:38,537\n兩千六百七十四億兩千六百七十四億很好二六七四億謝謝你的反質詢讓我有更新update的機會好下一頁所以來看看台灣因為年改我們有實質的基金的永續年限以及我們基金的挹注財源剛剛到了兩千六百七十四億很好\n\n25\n00:08:56,582 --> 00:09:13,519\n即便我們改了我們砍了部分的退休金但是實質上跟國際比一比臺灣的實質所得替代率仍遠高於OECD國家的平均我這是2022年OECD國家的平均的所得替代率是61.4%但是臺灣以2022年的所得替代率年改之後的已經砍了\n\n26\n00:09:20,886 --> 00:09:35,299\n還是高達69.23%我們高於OECD國家8%代表台灣的退休公務人員政府想方設法照顧退休公務人員比國際都還努力做更多。\n\n27\n00:09:36,380 --> 00:09:44,464\n條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期\n\n28\n00:10:05,595 --> 00:10:30,094\n公務人員之間的不公平。」下一頁因為現在他如果停了而且甚至增加他的所得替代率會增加我們的退府支出減少收入所以年長連改一場空加速基金被掏空跟破產在野黨能負責嗎我今天很謝謝看到我們全序部的最新資料是說如果提高了這個修法過了的話平均以35年的年資來計的話\n\n29\n00:10:31,255 --> 00:10:45,815\n只要10到15年後每年增加20億,20到29年後增加每年40億,30年後每年增加60億。對不對?這就是加速我們的破產的可能嘛。Right?歡迎反諮詢。\n\n30\n00:10:48,837 --> 00:11:12,963\n報告委員剛才黃國昌委員有希望我們再做精算在我們昨天晚上連夜就我們現在看到你們那份資料去做做推估原來我們講的每年15億的那個減少挹注的部分如果用50年精算跟他現在警消站的這個挹注的比例在23%這樣算下來50年\n\n31\n00:11:17,024 --> 00:11:17,545\n這個差距會是1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億\n\n32\n00:11:36,798 --> 00:11:37,038\n一﹗一﹗一﹗一\n\n33\n00:11:53,020 --> 00:12:20,548\n現在呢修法的版本要把原本是用公務人員退休之前撫恤法的這個抽出用警察人員人事條例來訂定但是他提高了這個所得替代率到95或90但是連同每年10年要累減的那個反而沒有放進來對不對所以這個是法律只抄半套這是另外一個不公平不正義我要提出來再下一個\n\n34\n00:12:21,604 --> 00:12:47,754\n而我看到我們原本的退休金彈性調整的機制原本就已經入法了。針對消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負百分之五的時候每四年要引以檢討來擴大我們配合物價定期檢討保障退休人員生活需要的權益。原本的配套改革方方面面都非常的全面。所以我希望經過我今天的論述也再三的謝謝幾位對我的反質詢提供更正確的數字讓我們再一次確認\n\n35\n00:12:50,495 --> 00:13:09,955\n年金改革不走回頭路不能夠因為委員大家想要做好人抗國家之慨但是卻摧毀了改革的成果摧毀了國家的退休基金如果剛剛講的50年就要增加1080億天啊如果年金破產了\n\n36\n00:13:10,856 --> 00:13:30,835\n在野黨能負責嗎?提案的委員能負責嗎?所以我再次論述三大反對的理由同意基金同意繳費標準對付的制度應當一致才是公平我們要確保基金永續不只要照顧退休的警消更要兼顧現役的警消這才是真正的正義最後一項\n\n37\n00:13:31,536 --> 00:13:56,248\n不要再提這種違反憲法違反財政紀律法的法案了這是會拖垮國家的財政制度跟法律的秩序謝謝我們繼續努力我們持續論述也許我們是少數也許會被強行通過但是社會面的論述我們絕對不能放棄我相信社會大眾是站在真理站在公平正義的一方大家加油謝謝謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n735\t896\t二）委員\n11576\t33891\t謝謝主席。想要請馬次長、張次長、李副人事長、然後署長也一起喔。既然來了,回到你們的問題,你們就主動回答。我是很想替他們爭取一下,大家連用個便餐的時間都沒有,實在太辛苦了。主席要不要等一下休息一下,讓他們用個餐。好不好,我替他們爭取一下福利。這麼多議事工作人員,大家都辛苦。好。來。\n37318\t57996\t我想任何一個退休金的制度都是要世世代代領得到長長久久領到老任何一個退休金制度的設計都應當如此所以當我們換算到把它勢比到國家的退休金制度就應當如此嘛\n58817\t80889\t不論誰執政基金都要永續都要穩定這是不論誰執政的歷史責任因為這都要對世世代代的公務同仁不論是軍、工、教、警消、醫護都要一致所以在2017、2018我擔任立委的第一屆\n82370\t111690\t我真的是在面對年改的那個那種社會的一個很大的分歧但是社會在歷經了討論之後我們好不容易擁有改革的成果所以年金改革不走回頭路世代正義絕對不能開倒車下一頁照顧公務人員用數字來說實話蔡英文總統的任內是錯最多的\n113047\t128363\t條文及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員\n129944\t140895\t最照顧公務人員我在講不論軍公教警消醫護等等我們都努力做更多做更好就以實質的條型來講這沒有錯嘛對不對次長好下一頁\n144571\t163039\t那署長在這裡哈針對警消這幾年來我們也是努力做更多做更好四個面向對於薪資與津貼的調整不論是基層員警或是國道高速公路的員警的每月薪資跟外勤薪資都調升\n164520\t190158\t在緊勤加擠在重要的勤務獎勵金乃至於超勤加班費我們都努力調漲嘛在薪資跟今天的調整署長我沒有說錯嘛對不對第二大面向醫療與健康保障正因為我們好不容易成立了公益信託警察醫療及照護基金我們已經補助了5945案合法了1億5\n194261\t198986\t三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員\n217205\t243637\t也都努力來照顧警消。」我這四大面向的整理請問次長、署長我都沒說不對嘛所以不要因為今天對於退休警消人員的修法有過沒有過來對於不同意見的委員們冠上帽子說你沒來聽這條你就是沒照顧我們的警察人員或是消防人員我覺得這樣不對\n244838\t255250\t我們橫憑的來看蔡英文政府停警消四大面向我們真的努力做更多做更好我覺得這個我們要很自信的對社會來論述\n257577\t274927\t所以年改不走回頭路我是真的認為國民黨有11個版本的委員提案真的是恐怕走上倒行逆施反年改反進步摧毀我們正向的改革成果我歸納了三大理由第一個\n276209\t299836\t大家適用同一個基金同一種繳費的基準退府的制度就應當一致這才是公平第二大理由確保基金的永續除了要擴大來照顧退休的警消人員更要兼顧現役在服務國家人民的警消人員這才是真正的正義\n301036\t322766\t第三個這個會期我真的很遺憾一再的看到在野黨委員康國家之愷提出了違反憲法第70條或是違反大法官釋字391號的解釋也一再的提出違反財政紀律法第5條第7條的授權立法委員不能為增加預算之決議提案\n323826\t345516\t如果你要提升也應當載明他合理的財源或新增財源在哪裡這是立法院自己修的財政紀律法2019年新頒布的所以我這三大反對現在幾個修法版本的三大歸納的理由請問我還有沒有遺漏的\n347849\t373362\t報告委員委員掌握的資訊非常的正確那麼我們這邊也非常同意委員對整個事情的分析好那我進入條文來論述下一頁這個是當年2017年我們在對社會論述排除萬難做到了年金改革因為連馬英九前總統都說年改今天不做明天就會後悔我們基於國人平均壽命的延長年輕人的負擔更重所以要改\n374142\t400541\t基於各項退休基金的收支失衡破產在即所以要改基於年金的給付不一致各類人員的保障水平參差不齊所以我們要改改的一個最重要的目標就是落實世代正義這是當年的論述當年的主張我們克服萬難去做年金改革下一頁好我們來檢視有沒有達到改革的正向成果\n401843\t418094\t提升基金的運作永續性上來看,竟然退府制度相對比較沒有破產的高度疑慮。教育人員的退休制度從原本119年可能會有破產之餘,我們因為改革了,它延後到133年。\n419835\t431225\t公務人員退休的撫恤金的基金原本120年就可能破產我們讓他延後到135年對不對我的數字都正確嗎如果我有錯誤你們隨時反質詢沒有問題OK嗎\n434918\t436419\t二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具\n454556\t477110\t對對那那是因為一二年的個人專務制所以提早到一百三十五年好現在政府也努力依法在撥補所以我們還是希望目標一百四十年好謝謝您的指正我不會覺得是反質詢你反質詢的好立委講不對你就要來更正下一個呢剛剛是基金的永續的年限第二個就是實質因為我們\n480034\t502172\t做了改革可以挹注於基金的金額來看軍人退府制度增加了633億的撥補教育人員增加了998億公務人員退休增加了803億合計我們因為年改實質的減緩政府財政壓力來有效挹注我們的退府基金高達2434億至今我的數字正確嗎還是更多來歡迎反諮詢\n509534\t518537\t兩千六百七十四億兩千六百七十四億很好二六七四億謝謝你的反質詢讓我有更新update的機會好下一頁所以來看看台灣因為年改我們有實質的基金的永續年限以及我們基金的挹注財源剛剛到了兩千六百七十四億很好\n536582\t553519\t即便我們改了我們砍了部分的退休金但是實質上跟國際比一比臺灣的實質所得替代率仍遠高於OECD國家的平均我這是2022年OECD國家的平均的所得替代率是61.4%但是臺灣以2022年的所得替代率年改之後的已經砍了\n560886\t575299\t還是高達69.23%我們高於OECD國家8%代表台灣的退休公務人員政府想方設法照顧退休公務人員比國際都還努力做更多。\n576380\t584464\t條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期\n605595\t630094\t公務人員之間的不公平。」下一頁因為現在他如果停了而且甚至增加他的所得替代率會增加我們的退府支出減少收入所以年長連改一場空加速基金被掏空跟破產在野黨能負責嗎我今天很謝謝看到我們全序部的最新資料是說如果提高了這個修法過了的話平均以35年的年資來計的話\n631255\t645815\t只要10到15年後每年增加20億,20到29年後增加每年40億,30年後每年增加60億。對不對?這就是加速我們的破產的可能嘛。Right?歡迎反諮詢。\n648837\t672963\t報告委員剛才黃國昌委員有希望我們再做精算在我們昨天晚上連夜就我們現在看到你們那份資料去做做推估原來我們講的每年15億的那個減少挹注的部分如果用50年精算跟他現在警消站的這個挹注的比例在23%這樣算下來50年\n677024\t677545\t這個差距會是1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億\n696798\t697038\t一﹗一﹗一﹗一\n713020\t740548\t現在呢修法的版本要把原本是用公務人員退休之前撫恤法的這個抽出用警察人員人事條例來訂定但是他提高了這個所得替代率到95或90但是連同每年10年要累減的那個反而沒有放進來對不對所以這個是法律只抄半套這是另外一個不公平不正義我要提出來再下一個\n741604\t767754\t而我看到我們原本的退休金彈性調整的機制原本就已經入法了。針對消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負百分之五的時候每四年要引以檢討來擴大我們配合物價定期檢討保障退休人員生活需要的權益。原本的配套改革方方面面都非常的全面。所以我希望經過我今天的論述也再三的謝謝幾位對我的反質詢提供更正確的數字讓我們再一次確認\n770495\t789955\t年金改革不走回頭路不能夠因為委員大家想要做好人抗國家之慨但是卻摧毀了改革的成果摧毀了國家的退休基金如果剛剛講的50年就要增加1080億天啊如果年金破產了\n790856\t810835\t在野黨能負責嗎?提案的委員能負責嗎?所以我再次論述三大反對的理由同意基金同意繳費標準對付的制度應當一致才是公平我們要確保基金永續不只要照顧退休的警消更要兼顧現役的警消這才是真正的正義最後一項\n811536\t836248\t不要再提這種違反憲法違反財政紀律法的法案了這是會拖垮國家的財政制度跟法律的秩序謝謝我們繼續努力我們持續論述也許我們是少數也許會被強行通過但是社會面的論述我們絕對不能放棄我相信社會大眾是站在真理站在公平正義的一方大家加油謝謝謝謝主席\n","txt":"二）委員\n謝謝主席。想要請馬次長、張次長、李副人事長、然後署長也一起喔。既然來了,回到你們的問題,你們就主動回答。我是很想替他們爭取一下,大家連用個便餐的時間都沒有,實在太辛苦了。主席要不要等一下休息一下,讓他們用個餐。好不好,我替他們爭取一下福利。這麼多議事工作人員,大家都辛苦。好。來。\n我想任何一個退休金的制度都是要世世代代領得到長長久久領到老任何一個退休金制度的設計都應當如此所以當我們換算到把它勢比到國家的退休金制度就應當如此嘛\n不論誰執政基金都要永續都要穩定這是不論誰執政的歷史責任因為這都要對世世代代的公務同仁不論是軍、工、教、警消、醫護都要一致所以在2017、2018我擔任立委的第一屆\n我真的是在面對年改的那個那種社會的一個很大的分歧但是社會在歷經了討論之後我們好不容易擁有改革的成果所以年金改革不走回頭路世代正義絕對不能開倒車下一頁照顧公務人員用數字來說實話蔡英文總統的任內是錯最多的\n條文及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員\n最照顧公務人員我在講不論軍公教警消醫護等等我們都努力做更多做更好就以實質的條型來講這沒有錯嘛對不對次長好下一頁\n那署長在這裡哈針對警消這幾年來我們也是努力做更多做更好四個面向對於薪資與津貼的調整不論是基層員警或是國道高速公路的員警的每月薪資跟外勤薪資都調升\n在緊勤加擠在重要的勤務獎勵金乃至於超勤加班費我們都努力調漲嘛在薪資跟今天的調整署長我沒有說錯嘛對不對第二大面向醫療與健康保障正因為我們好不容易成立了公益信託警察醫療及照護基金我們已經補助了5945案合法了1億5\n三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員\n也都努力來照顧警消。」我這四大面向的整理請問次長、署長我都沒說不對嘛所以不要因為今天對於退休警消人員的修法有過沒有過來對於不同意見的委員們冠上帽子說你沒來聽這條你就是沒照顧我們的警察人員或是消防人員我覺得這樣不對\n我們橫憑的來看蔡英文政府停警消四大面向我們真的努力做更多做更好我覺得這個我們要很自信的對社會來論述\n所以年改不走回頭路我是真的認為國民黨有11個版本的委員提案真的是恐怕走上倒行逆施反年改反進步摧毀我們正向的改革成果我歸納了三大理由第一個\n大家適用同一個基金同一種繳費的基準退府的制度就應當一致這才是公平第二大理由確保基金的永續除了要擴大來照顧退休的警消人員更要兼顧現役在服務國家人民的警消人員這才是真正的正義\n第三個這個會期我真的很遺憾一再的看到在野黨委員康國家之愷提出了違反憲法第70條或是違反大法官釋字391號的解釋也一再的提出違反財政紀律法第5條第7條的授權立法委員不能為增加預算之決議提案\n如果你要提升也應當載明他合理的財源或新增財源在哪裡這是立法院自己修的財政紀律法2019年新頒布的所以我這三大反對現在幾個修法版本的三大歸納的理由請問我還有沒有遺漏的\n報告委員委員掌握的資訊非常的正確那麼我們這邊也非常同意委員對整個事情的分析好那我進入條文來論述下一頁這個是當年2017年我們在對社會論述排除萬難做到了年金改革因為連馬英九前總統都說年改今天不做明天就會後悔我們基於國人平均壽命的延長年輕人的負擔更重所以要改\n基於各項退休基金的收支失衡破產在即所以要改基於年金的給付不一致各類人員的保障水平參差不齊所以我們要改改的一個最重要的目標就是落實世代正義這是當年的論述當年的主張我們克服萬難去做年金改革下一頁好我們來檢視有沒有達到改革的正向成果\n提升基金的運作永續性上來看,竟然退府制度相對比較沒有破產的高度疑慮。教育人員的退休制度從原本119年可能會有破產之餘,我們因為改革了,它延後到133年。\n公務人員退休的撫恤金的基金原本120年就可能破產我們讓他延後到135年對不對我的數字都正確嗎如果我有錯誤你們隨時反質詢沒有問題OK嗎\n二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具\n對對那那是因為一二年的個人專務制所以提早到一百三十五年好現在政府也努力依法在撥補所以我們還是希望目標一百四十年好謝謝您的指正我不會覺得是反質詢你反質詢的好立委講不對你就要來更正下一個呢剛剛是基金的永續的年限第二個就是實質因為我們\n做了改革可以挹注於基金的金額來看軍人退府制度增加了633億的撥補教育人員增加了998億公務人員退休增加了803億合計我們因為年改實質的減緩政府財政壓力來有效挹注我們的退府基金高達2434億至今我的數字正確嗎還是更多來歡迎反諮詢\n兩千六百七十四億兩千六百七十四億很好二六七四億謝謝你的反質詢讓我有更新update的機會好下一頁所以來看看台灣因為年改我們有實質的基金的永續年限以及我們基金的挹注財源剛剛到了兩千六百七十四億很好\n即便我們改了我們砍了部分的退休金但是實質上跟國際比一比臺灣的實質所得替代率仍遠高於OECD國家的平均我這是2022年OECD國家的平均的所得替代率是61.4%但是臺灣以2022年的所得替代率年改之後的已經砍了\n還是高達69.23%我們高於OECD國家8%代表台灣的退休公務人員政府想方設法照顧退休公務人員比國際都還努力做更多。\n條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期\n公務人員之間的不公平。」下一頁因為現在他如果停了而且甚至增加他的所得替代率會增加我們的退府支出減少收入所以年長連改一場空加速基金被掏空跟破產在野黨能負責嗎我今天很謝謝看到我們全序部的最新資料是說如果提高了這個修法過了的話平均以35年的年資來計的話\n只要10到15年後每年增加20億,20到29年後增加每年40億,30年後每年增加60億。對不對?這就是加速我們的破產的可能嘛。Right?歡迎反諮詢。\n報告委員剛才黃國昌委員有希望我們再做精算在我們昨天晚上連夜就我們現在看到你們那份資料去做做推估原來我們講的每年15億的那個減少挹注的部分如果用50年精算跟他現在警消站的這個挹注的比例在23%這樣算下來50年\n這個差距會是1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億\n一﹗一﹗一﹗一\n現在呢修法的版本要把原本是用公務人員退休之前撫恤法的這個抽出用警察人員人事條例來訂定但是他提高了這個所得替代率到95或90但是連同每年10年要累減的那個反而沒有放進來對不對所以這個是法律只抄半套這是另外一個不公平不正義我要提出來再下一個\n而我看到我們原本的退休金彈性調整的機制原本就已經入法了。針對消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負百分之五的時候每四年要引以檢討來擴大我們配合物價定期檢討保障退休人員生活需要的權益。原本的配套改革方方面面都非常的全面。所以我希望經過我今天的論述也再三的謝謝幾位對我的反質詢提供更正確的數字讓我們再一次確認\n年金改革不走回頭路不能夠因為委員大家想要做好人抗國家之慨但是卻摧毀了改革的成果摧毀了國家的退休基金如果剛剛講的50年就要增加1080億天啊如果年金破產了\n在野黨能負責嗎?提案的委員能負責嗎?所以我再次論述三大反對的理由同意基金同意繳費標準對付的制度應當一致才是公平我們要確保基金永續不只要照顧退休的警消更要兼顧現役的警消這才是真正的正義最後一項\n不要再提這種違反憲法違反財政紀律法的法案了這是會拖垮國家的財政制度跟法律的秩序謝謝我們繼續努力我們持續論述也許我們是少數也許會被強行通過但是社會面的論述我們絕對不能放棄我相信社會大眾是站在真理站在公平正義的一方大家加油謝謝謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.735 --> 00:00.896\n二）委員\n\n00:11.576 --> 00:33.891\n謝謝主席。想要請馬次長、張次長、李副人事長、然後署長也一起喔。既然來了,回到你們的問題,你們就主動回答。我是很想替他們爭取一下,大家連用個便餐的時間都沒有,實在太辛苦了。主席要不要等一下休息一下,讓他們用個餐。好不好,我替他們爭取一下福利。這麼多議事工作人員,大家都辛苦。好。來。\n\n00:37.318 --> 00:57.996\n我想任何一個退休金的制度都是要世世代代領得到長長久久領到老任何一個退休金制度的設計都應當如此所以當我們換算到把它勢比到國家的退休金制度就應當如此嘛\n\n00:58.817 --> 01:20.889\n不論誰執政基金都要永續都要穩定這是不論誰執政的歷史責任因為這都要對世世代代的公務同仁不論是軍、工、教、警消、醫護都要一致所以在2017、2018我擔任立委的第一屆\n\n01:22.370 --> 01:51.690\n我真的是在面對年改的那個那種社會的一個很大的分歧但是社會在歷經了討論之後我們好不容易擁有改革的成果所以年金改革不走回頭路世代正義絕對不能開倒車下一頁照顧公務人員用數字來說實話蔡英文總統的任內是錯最多的\n\n01:53.047 --> 02:08.363\n條文及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員\n\n02:09.944 --> 02:20.895\n最照顧公務人員我在講不論軍公教警消醫護等等我們都努力做更多做更好就以實質的條型來講這沒有錯嘛對不對次長好下一頁\n\n02:24.571 --> 02:43.039\n那署長在這裡哈針對警消這幾年來我們也是努力做更多做更好四個面向對於薪資與津貼的調整不論是基層員警或是國道高速公路的員警的每月薪資跟外勤薪資都調升\n\n02:44.520 --> 03:10.158\n在緊勤加擠在重要的勤務獎勵金乃至於超勤加班費我們都努力調漲嘛在薪資跟今天的調整署長我沒有說錯嘛對不對第二大面向醫療與健康保障正因為我們好不容易成立了公益信託警察醫療及照護基金我們已經補助了5945案合法了1億5\n\n03:14.261 --> 03:18.986\n三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員\n\n03:37.205 --> 04:03.637\n也都努力來照顧警消。」我這四大面向的整理請問次長、署長我都沒說不對嘛所以不要因為今天對於退休警消人員的修法有過沒有過來對於不同意見的委員們冠上帽子說你沒來聽這條你就是沒照顧我們的警察人員或是消防人員我覺得這樣不對\n\n04:04.838 --> 04:15.250\n我們橫憑的來看蔡英文政府停警消四大面向我們真的努力做更多做更好我覺得這個我們要很自信的對社會來論述\n\n04:17.577 --> 04:34.927\n所以年改不走回頭路我是真的認為國民黨有11個版本的委員提案真的是恐怕走上倒行逆施反年改反進步摧毀我們正向的改革成果我歸納了三大理由第一個\n\n04:36.209 --> 04:59.836\n大家適用同一個基金同一種繳費的基準退府的制度就應當一致這才是公平第二大理由確保基金的永續除了要擴大來照顧退休的警消人員更要兼顧現役在服務國家人民的警消人員這才是真正的正義\n\n05:01.036 --> 05:22.766\n第三個這個會期我真的很遺憾一再的看到在野黨委員康國家之愷提出了違反憲法第70條或是違反大法官釋字391號的解釋也一再的提出違反財政紀律法第5條第7條的授權立法委員不能為增加預算之決議提案\n\n05:23.826 --> 05:45.516\n如果你要提升也應當載明他合理的財源或新增財源在哪裡這是立法院自己修的財政紀律法2019年新頒布的所以我這三大反對現在幾個修法版本的三大歸納的理由請問我還有沒有遺漏的\n\n05:47.849 --> 06:13.362\n報告委員委員掌握的資訊非常的正確那麼我們這邊也非常同意委員對整個事情的分析好那我進入條文來論述下一頁這個是當年2017年我們在對社會論述排除萬難做到了年金改革因為連馬英九前總統都說年改今天不做明天就會後悔我們基於國人平均壽命的延長年輕人的負擔更重所以要改\n\n06:14.142 --> 06:40.541\n基於各項退休基金的收支失衡破產在即所以要改基於年金的給付不一致各類人員的保障水平參差不齊所以我們要改改的一個最重要的目標就是落實世代正義這是當年的論述當年的主張我們克服萬難去做年金改革下一頁好我們來檢視有沒有達到改革的正向成果\n\n06:41.843 --> 06:58.094\n提升基金的運作永續性上來看,竟然退府制度相對比較沒有破產的高度疑慮。教育人員的退休制度從原本119年可能會有破產之餘,我們因為改革了,它延後到133年。\n\n06:59.835 --> 07:11.225\n公務人員退休的撫恤金的基金原本120年就可能破產我們讓他延後到135年對不對我的數字都正確嗎如果我有錯誤你們隨時反質詢沒有問題OK嗎\n\n07:14.918 --> 07:16.419\n二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具\n\n07:34.556 --> 07:57.110\n對對那那是因為一二年的個人專務制所以提早到一百三十五年好現在政府也努力依法在撥補所以我們還是希望目標一百四十年好謝謝您的指正我不會覺得是反質詢你反質詢的好立委講不對你就要來更正下一個呢剛剛是基金的永續的年限第二個就是實質因為我們\n\n08:00.034 --> 08:22.172\n做了改革可以挹注於基金的金額來看軍人退府制度增加了633億的撥補教育人員增加了998億公務人員退休增加了803億合計我們因為年改實質的減緩政府財政壓力來有效挹注我們的退府基金高達2434億至今我的數字正確嗎還是更多來歡迎反諮詢\n\n08:29.534 --> 08:38.537\n兩千六百七十四億兩千六百七十四億很好二六七四億謝謝你的反質詢讓我有更新update的機會好下一頁所以來看看台灣因為年改我們有實質的基金的永續年限以及我們基金的挹注財源剛剛到了兩千六百七十四億很好\n\n08:56.582 --> 09:13.519\n即便我們改了我們砍了部分的退休金但是實質上跟國際比一比臺灣的實質所得替代率仍遠高於OECD國家的平均我這是2022年OECD國家的平均的所得替代率是61.4%但是臺灣以2022年的所得替代率年改之後的已經砍了\n\n09:20.886 --> 09:35.299\n還是高達69.23%我們高於OECD國家8%代表台灣的退休公務人員政府想方設法照顧退休公務人員比國際都還努力做更多。\n\n09:36.380 --> 09:44.464\n條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期\n\n10:05.595 --> 10:30.094\n公務人員之間的不公平。」下一頁因為現在他如果停了而且甚至增加他的所得替代率會增加我們的退府支出減少收入所以年長連改一場空加速基金被掏空跟破產在野黨能負責嗎我今天很謝謝看到我們全序部的最新資料是說如果提高了這個修法過了的話平均以35年的年資來計的話\n\n10:31.255 --> 10:45.815\n只要10到15年後每年增加20億,20到29年後增加每年40億,30年後每年增加60億。對不對?這就是加速我們的破產的可能嘛。Right?歡迎反諮詢。\n\n10:48.837 --> 11:12.963\n報告委員剛才黃國昌委員有希望我們再做精算在我們昨天晚上連夜就我們現在看到你們那份資料去做做推估原來我們講的每年15億的那個減少挹注的部分如果用50年精算跟他現在警消站的這個挹注的比例在23%這樣算下來50年\n\n11:17.024 --> 11:17.545\n這個差距會是1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億\n\n11:36.798 --> 11:37.038\n一﹗一﹗一﹗一\n\n11:53.020 --> 12:20.548\n現在呢修法的版本要把原本是用公務人員退休之前撫恤法的這個抽出用警察人員人事條例來訂定但是他提高了這個所得替代率到95或90但是連同每年10年要累減的那個反而沒有放進來對不對所以這個是法律只抄半套這是另外一個不公平不正義我要提出來再下一個\n\n12:21.604 --> 12:47.754\n而我看到我們原本的退休金彈性調整的機制原本就已經入法了。針對消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負百分之五的時候每四年要引以檢討來擴大我們配合物價定期檢討保障退休人員生活需要的權益。原本的配套改革方方面面都非常的全面。所以我希望經過我今天的論述也再三的謝謝幾位對我的反質詢提供更正確的數字讓我們再一次確認\n\n12:50.495 --> 13:09.955\n年金改革不走回頭路不能夠因為委員大家想要做好人抗國家之慨但是卻摧毀了改革的成果摧毀了國家的退休基金如果剛剛講的50年就要增加1080億天啊如果年金破產了\n\n13:10.856 --> 13:30.835\n在野黨能負責嗎?提案的委員能負責嗎?所以我再次論述三大反對的理由同意基金同意繳費標準對付的制度應當一致才是公平我們要確保基金永續不只要照顧退休的警消更要兼顧現役的警消這才是真正的正義最後一項\n\n13:31.536 --> 13:56.248\n不要再提這種違反憲法違反財政紀律法的法案了這是會拖垮國家的財政制度跟法律的秩序謝謝我們繼續努力我們持續論述也許我們是少數也許會被強行通過但是社會面的論述我們絕對不能放棄我相信社會大眾是站在真理站在公平正義的一方大家加油謝謝謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.735,"end":0.896,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":11.576,"end":33.891,"text":"謝謝主席。想要請馬次長、張次長、李副人事長、然後署長也一起喔。既然來了,回到你們的問題,你們就主動回答。我是很想替他們爭取一下,大家連用個便餐的時間都沒有,實在太辛苦了。主席要不要等一下休息一下,讓他們用個餐。好不好,我替他們爭取一下福利。這麼多議事工作人員,大家都辛苦。好。來。"},{"start":37.318,"end":57.996,"text":"我想任何一個退休金的制度都是要世世代代領得到長長久久領到老任何一個退休金制度的設計都應當如此所以當我們換算到把它勢比到國家的退休金制度就應當如此嘛"},{"start":58.817,"end":80.889,"text":"不論誰執政基金都要永續都要穩定這是不論誰執政的歷史責任因為這都要對世世代代的公務同仁不論是軍、工、教、警消、醫護都要一致所以在2017、2018我擔任立委的第一屆"},{"start":82.37,"end":111.69,"text":"我真的是在面對年改的那個那種社會的一個很大的分歧但是社會在歷經了討論之後我們好不容易擁有改革的成果所以年金改革不走回頭路世代正義絕對不能開倒車下一頁照顧公務人員用數字來說實話蔡英文總統的任內是錯最多的"},{"start":113.047,"end":128.363,"text":"條文及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員"},{"start":129.944,"end":140.895,"text":"最照顧公務人員我在講不論軍公教警消醫護等等我們都努力做更多做更好就以實質的條型來講這沒有錯嘛對不對次長好下一頁"},{"start":144.571,"end":163.039,"text":"那署長在這裡哈針對警消這幾年來我們也是努力做更多做更好四個面向對於薪資與津貼的調整不論是基層員警或是國道高速公路的員警的每月薪資跟外勤薪資都調升"},{"start":164.52,"end":190.158,"text":"在緊勤加擠在重要的勤務獎勵金乃至於超勤加班費我們都努力調漲嘛在薪資跟今天的調整署長我沒有說錯嘛對不對第二大面向醫療與健康保障正因為我們好不容易成立了公益信託警察醫療及照護基金我們已經補助了5945案合法了1億5"},{"start":194.261,"end":198.986,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":217.205,"end":243.637,"text":"也都努力來照顧警消。」我這四大面向的整理請問次長、署長我都沒說不對嘛所以不要因為今天對於退休警消人員的修法有過沒有過來對於不同意見的委員們冠上帽子說你沒來聽這條你就是沒照顧我們的警察人員或是消防人員我覺得這樣不對"},{"start":244.838,"end":255.25,"text":"我們橫憑的來看蔡英文政府停警消四大面向我們真的努力做更多做更好我覺得這個我們要很自信的對社會來論述"},{"start":257.577,"end":274.927,"text":"所以年改不走回頭路我是真的認為國民黨有11個版本的委員提案真的是恐怕走上倒行逆施反年改反進步摧毀我們正向的改革成果我歸納了三大理由第一個"},{"start":276.209,"end":299.836,"text":"大家適用同一個基金同一種繳費的基準退府的制度就應當一致這才是公平第二大理由確保基金的永續除了要擴大來照顧退休的警消人員更要兼顧現役在服務國家人民的警消人員這才是真正的正義"},{"start":301.036,"end":322.766,"text":"第三個這個會期我真的很遺憾一再的看到在野黨委員康國家之愷提出了違反憲法第70條或是違反大法官釋字391號的解釋也一再的提出違反財政紀律法第5條第7條的授權立法委員不能為增加預算之決議提案"},{"start":323.826,"end":345.516,"text":"如果你要提升也應當載明他合理的財源或新增財源在哪裡這是立法院自己修的財政紀律法2019年新頒布的所以我這三大反對現在幾個修法版本的三大歸納的理由請問我還有沒有遺漏的"},{"start":347.849,"end":373.362,"text":"報告委員委員掌握的資訊非常的正確那麼我們這邊也非常同意委員對整個事情的分析好那我進入條文來論述下一頁這個是當年2017年我們在對社會論述排除萬難做到了年金改革因為連馬英九前總統都說年改今天不做明天就會後悔我們基於國人平均壽命的延長年輕人的負擔更重所以要改"},{"start":374.142,"end":400.541,"text":"基於各項退休基金的收支失衡破產在即所以要改基於年金的給付不一致各類人員的保障水平參差不齊所以我們要改改的一個最重要的目標就是落實世代正義這是當年的論述當年的主張我們克服萬難去做年金改革下一頁好我們來檢視有沒有達到改革的正向成果"},{"start":401.843,"end":418.094,"text":"提升基金的運作永續性上來看,竟然退府制度相對比較沒有破產的高度疑慮。教育人員的退休制度從原本119年可能會有破產之餘,我們因為改革了,它延後到133年。"},{"start":419.835,"end":431.225,"text":"公務人員退休的撫恤金的基金原本120年就可能破產我們讓他延後到135年對不對我的數字都正確嗎如果我有錯誤你們隨時反質詢沒有問題OK嗎"},{"start":434.918,"end":436.419,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":454.556,"end":477.11,"text":"對對那那是因為一二年的個人專務制所以提早到一百三十五年好現在政府也努力依法在撥補所以我們還是希望目標一百四十年好謝謝您的指正我不會覺得是反質詢你反質詢的好立委講不對你就要來更正下一個呢剛剛是基金的永續的年限第二個就是實質因為我們"},{"start":480.034,"end":502.172,"text":"做了改革可以挹注於基金的金額來看軍人退府制度增加了633億的撥補教育人員增加了998億公務人員退休增加了803億合計我們因為年改實質的減緩政府財政壓力來有效挹注我們的退府基金高達2434億至今我的數字正確嗎還是更多來歡迎反諮詢"},{"start":509.534,"end":518.537,"text":"兩千六百七十四億兩千六百七十四億很好二六七四億謝謝你的反質詢讓我有更新update的機會好下一頁所以來看看台灣因為年改我們有實質的基金的永續年限以及我們基金的挹注財源剛剛到了兩千六百七十四億很好"},{"start":536.582,"end":553.519,"text":"即便我們改了我們砍了部分的退休金但是實質上跟國際比一比臺灣的實質所得替代率仍遠高於OECD國家的平均我這是2022年OECD國家的平均的所得替代率是61.4%但是臺灣以2022年的所得替代率年改之後的已經砍了"},{"start":560.886,"end":575.299,"text":"還是高達69.23%我們高於OECD國家8%代表台灣的退休公務人員政府想方設法照顧退休公務人員比國際都還努力做更多。"},{"start":576.38,"end":584.464,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期"},{"start":605.595,"end":630.094,"text":"公務人員之間的不公平。」下一頁因為現在他如果停了而且甚至增加他的所得替代率會增加我們的退府支出減少收入所以年長連改一場空加速基金被掏空跟破產在野黨能負責嗎我今天很謝謝看到我們全序部的最新資料是說如果提高了這個修法過了的話平均以35年的年資來計的話"},{"start":631.255,"end":645.815,"text":"只要10到15年後每年增加20億,20到29年後增加每年40億,30年後每年增加60億。對不對?這就是加速我們的破產的可能嘛。Right?歡迎反諮詢。"},{"start":648.837,"end":672.963,"text":"報告委員剛才黃國昌委員有希望我們再做精算在我們昨天晚上連夜就我們現在看到你們那份資料去做做推估原來我們講的每年15億的那個減少挹注的部分如果用50年精算跟他現在警消站的這個挹注的比例在23%這樣算下來50年"},{"start":677.024,"end":677.545,"text":"這個差距會是1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億"},{"start":696.798,"end":697.038,"text":"一﹗一﹗一﹗一"},{"start":713.02,"end":740.548,"text":"現在呢修法的版本要把原本是用公務人員退休之前撫恤法的這個抽出用警察人員人事條例來訂定但是他提高了這個所得替代率到95或90但是連同每年10年要累減的那個反而沒有放進來對不對所以這個是法律只抄半套這是另外一個不公平不正義我要提出來再下一個"},{"start":741.604,"end":767.754,"text":"而我看到我們原本的退休金彈性調整的機制原本就已經入法了。針對消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負百分之五的時候每四年要引以檢討來擴大我們配合物價定期檢討保障退休人員生活需要的權益。原本的配套改革方方面面都非常的全面。所以我希望經過我今天的論述也再三的謝謝幾位對我的反質詢提供更正確的數字讓我們再一次確認"},{"start":770.495,"end":789.955,"text":"年金改革不走回頭路不能夠因為委員大家想要做好人抗國家之慨但是卻摧毀了改革的成果摧毀了國家的退休基金如果剛剛講的50年就要增加1080億天啊如果年金破產了"},{"start":790.856,"end":810.835,"text":"在野黨能負責嗎?提案的委員能負責嗎?所以我再次論述三大反對的理由同意基金同意繳費標準對付的制度應當一致才是公平我們要確保基金永續不只要照顧退休的警消更要兼顧現役的警消這才是真正的正義最後一項"},{"start":811.536,"end":836.248,"text":"不要再提這種違反憲法違反財政紀律法的法案了這是會拖垮國家的財政制度跟法律的秩序謝謝我們繼續努力我們持續論述也許我們是少數也許會被強行通過但是社會面的論述我們絕對不能放棄我相信社會大眾是站在真理站在公平正義的一方大家加油謝謝謝謝主席"}]}}}}