{"id":154043,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154043","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c0185bd6c6b7702325a985b353bd3059915547564afe154b26917f2f4c7b5986f42ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:55:08 - 12:25:37","影片長度":"00:30:29","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T11:55:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T12:25:37+08:00","duration":1829,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1041,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（11時55分）院長，我想請卓院長。"],["主席：再請卓院長備詢。"],["張委員嘉郡：卓院長好。這次我們的AI行動內閣進用了很多實務界的專業人士，各界也都很期待我們的內閣團隊是一個很接地氣的內閣，院長對我們的內閣有什麼樣的期許呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員對我們的肯定，誠如你所說的，我們有來自產業界、有來自學術界，也有原來在陳建仁院長時代留下來的幾位很優秀的部會首長，我希望新舊之間儘快的融合，我們跟人民展現的就是我們要用行動，積極行動跟創新的理念，將它放在我們對每一項，所以我們說，我們會到發現問題的第一線、解決問題的第一線，也提出正確方法的第一線，我們會努力讓自己在這個工作上做好自己應該有的責任。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席也對院長所帶領的內閣團隊充滿了期待，希望可以排除藍綠之間的爭議，做一些福國利民，真正對臺灣好的政策。我知道院長很少提到家庭，不曉得院長當阿公了沒有？如果不想回答，可以不用回答，不方便回答，可以不用回答，但有一個趨勢……"],["卓院長榮泰：我只是有老人卡而已。"],["張委員嘉郡：有一個趨勢要讓院長知道，從2016開始，我們臺灣的生育率每況愈下，從2020年開始，我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如死的狀態，每年以一萬這樣子的人口數下降，這樣子急遽的下降，可以說少子化變成一個國安問題，為什麼年輕人不敢生，院長知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有一些是社會環境的變遷，有一些是經濟的因素，還有很多就是生下來之後他的教養問題，國家還要持續給他更多的協助。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯，院長講到重點，其實就是教養問題，就是經濟問題。現在行政院要推動托育政策2.0版，但很奇怪的是少子化明明是越來越嚴重，但是很多爸爸媽媽在替小朋友抽公幼時還是抽不到，不曉得院長有沒有朋友跟你反映過說：「怎麼辦？抽不到耶！怎麼樣都抽不到公幼。」有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：過去蠻嚴重的，那現在這個情形稍稍有舒緩，但是政府的各項措施，包括公托、準公托的設施，還要繼續的強化精進。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯，目前就讀私立幼兒園的學生數是38.5萬，占比67.6%，讀公幼的學生只有18.5萬，占比32.4%，為什麼家長都想讀公幼呢？因為收費比較便宜，現在只有三成的公幼，家長真的很辛苦，平常要工作，然後還要去打聽說哪一個幼兒園的中籤率比較高，然後抽中的算幸運，不抽中的是常態，所以是否有可能繼續增加公幼呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，我們會持續的在各地方增設相關的公共化幼兒中心，讓需要的爸爸媽媽跟小朋友都能夠有一個更好的學習環境。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這個我們都共同的期待。那在公幼銜接上需求之前，本席建議院長是不是可以考慮先提高育兒津貼跟托育補助？因為就現行的育兒津貼而言，第一胎每個月只有5,000塊，那第二胎當然有6,000塊等等，但養過小孩的家長都知道，一個月5,000元的補助，可能小孩的奶粉錢都超過這個錢了，更何況還有尿布、副食品、生病等等各種的花費，所以在這裡建議院長可以納入物價指數來修正補助，當物價指數大幅提高，超過警戒值的時候，希望我們行政院可以有所因應。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，育兒津貼從創設到現在，逐步有在增加當中，而且這個速度是考量政府財政的負擔，所以在這個情況底下，我們一樣的，當少子化的問題日趨嚴重的情況底下，政府投資跟社會投資都會日益增加，在這過程當中……"],["張委員嘉郡：這一點拜託院長特別關心。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定在財政衡量容許的範圍當中……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，繼續研議……"],["卓院長榮泰：盡量鼓勵，也盡量照顧。"],["張委員嘉郡：來幫助這些有小baby的家庭，然後也鼓勵更多的年輕人願意生小孩，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝院長。接下來，最近最夯的議題就是有關於AI產業的發展，國家的半導體產業跟AI產業的發展是一個關鍵時刻，尤其台積電、輝達等大廠都相繼想要擴廠、設廠，輝達執行長黃仁勳在臺灣逛夜市，但是輝達其實不一定要逛夜市，它也可以吃韓牛、可以吃壽司，我們現在是跟全世界一起在競爭輝達設廠。所以要向院長來推薦，我們雲林縣就是一個非常適合這些科技大廠設廠的地方，因為雲林縣的土地目前是各縣市裡面最完整、最大的，首先，在高鐵站旁我們已經準備好高鐵特定產業專區，有10公頃的土地可以標售，而且可以立即進駐。當然，另外雲林縣現在在推動的是中科二期擴大，已經向台糖拿到了用地同意函32.8公頃，也向台電拿到了用電同意函跟自來水公司的用水同意函，現在只需要院長輕輕一推，我們就有可能順利拿到土地變更，現在土地變更已經送到了農業部，是不是可以請院長大力支持呢？中科二期擴大。"],["卓院長榮泰：首先我們都非常感謝黃仁勳執行長，他喜愛夜市讓臺灣的美食揚名世界，我們會繼續把我們的夜市做得乾淨、漂亮，而且衛生、營養。再來，輝達公司在內湖的總部目前使用的狀況已經接近相當的飽和之中，他會尋求各地方，但是除了他公司產業布局的選擇之外，我們也希望他選擇臺灣的任何一個地方，我們都能夠提供最好的公共服務、基礎設施的服務，但是這樣的世界大廠要選擇在哪裡，他現在還沒有做明確的明示底下，我們現在只能是等待他做好更多地方的選擇跟調查。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然。但是本席剛剛第二個問題是，我們中科二期擴大現在已經拿到用水同意函、用電同意函跟用地同意函，已經進入到土地變更的期程，在之前經濟部是一直都非常的支持，目前需要農業部儘速把變更土地核定下來，我們就會跟上台積電明年要設廠的期程，這一點可不可以拜託院長督促農業部儘速來審查我們的土地變更案呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：初步計畫審查通過，現在是取得用地的階段。"],["張委員嘉郡：用地已經同意了。"],["卓院長榮泰：還沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們已經拿到了台糖的用地同意函。"],["吳主任委員誠文：台糖的部分沒有問題，現在是私人土地，那邊有一個高爾夫球場……"],["張委員嘉郡：我們沒有高爾夫球場，你弄錯了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：中科，你講的是……"],["張委員嘉郡：中科二期在虎尾。"],["吳主任委員誠文：虎尾的部分？"],["張委員嘉郡：在虎尾的部分，我們已經全部都送到農業部，要等待農業部審查，所以希望農業部可以儘速審查。"],["卓院長榮泰：請農業部來說明一下。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，有關於相關的專案，如果整個院的專案核定了以後，農地的變更是一個程序，我們一定會配合。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，拜託部長可以儘速審查完成，因為這不只對雲林縣很重要，對臺灣未來的發展也很重要，因為中科二期擴大雖然只有32.8公頃，但是它連結褒忠、土庫、東勢整個台糖的農場1,600公頃，放眼未來50年，假設AI產業跟半導體要繼續在臺灣深耕，它上、下游整合有充沛的土地，包括我們雲林縣有湖山水庫、海水淡化場，包括我們有集集攔河堰的這些水，我們有充沛的用水、用電，包括我們有充沛的太陽能光電跟再生能源等等，用水、用電、用地都沒有問題，可以支撐AI產業跟半導體產業下一個50年在臺灣深耕，我覺得這可以決定未來臺灣在國際的競爭力。今天院長帶領經濟部長、農業部長等等，大家都在這裡，希望你們可以大力的來支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛說程序已經在進行了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是整個專案核定以後，農地就會配合做正式的變更。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，拜託了，這一點特別拜託。經濟部部長，你要不要講一下？是不是可以支持？"],["郭部長智輝：是，經濟部也是一樣，當然行政院院長整合以後，我們一定是全力支持。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝部長。當然，AI產業是我們重大產業發展方向，對於AI產業的發展，院長認為我們目前最大的挑戰是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們除了在硬體的設施及軟體的加強之外，應該要跟世界各個進步的國家及廠商合作，但是最重要還是要培育我們足夠的人才。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，人才是一個很大的需求，當然，全國的用電上面也是一個很大的問題。前幾天我在經濟委員會已經問過了部長，就是AI伺服器耗電量是傳統伺服器的3至20倍。在美國，ChatGPT每天要消耗56萬度的電，相當於我們臺灣夏季用電每天4萬戶的用電。院長，你覺得我們有辦法負荷得起嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：郭部長幾次談過台電對現在用電的評估，到2030年前我們還是手上握有相當的餘裕，但是要針對高科技的發展，現在政府更必須積極地拓展更多多元的能源，包括展綠、發展更多的綠能，才能夠滿足業界的需求。至於細部怎麼去規劃、幾個正在進行的發電機組補上來，都是經濟部、台電每天在密切注意的東西。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，當然，再生能源、綠能這些，本席都非常、非常地支持，我覺得這是全世界的趨勢，但是院長有考慮過以核養綠嗎？有沒有考慮再把核三或者是核一、核二重啟呢？因為核三今年就要除役了，可能會有6至7%的用電缺口，院長怎麼看這個用電缺口？"],["卓院長榮泰：希望委員給我一點點時間，我希望透過這個時間向委員說明。核三廠1號機今年7月、2號機明年都會除役。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，2號機明年5月17日。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，現在……我是說假設，即使要延役的話，我們也要經過很長安全檢查的程序，汰換裡面檢查出可能的一些機組設備零件，所以在3年半到5年當中，核三廠1號機、2號機是不可能發電的。所以5年後它能不能發電還是一個問題，5年後的狀況不是我們面對今天這些問題可以解決的。"],["張委員嘉郡：這一點我也要提醒院長，其實我們的核能發電機使用年限只有歐洲及美國的一半，歐洲及美國的使用年限是我們的一倍多，所以變成其實它的使用年限是可以再增長的，為什麼我們不趕快把它檢查，現在你就可以決定，現在是關鍵的時刻，我們國家正面臨有可能要迎接AI產業高耗電的時刻，有沒有考慮在綠能達標之前先用核電來補足這個缺口呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：細部問題，我請郭部長再回答，我只跟委員報告，40年前我們設核電廠的時候就規定了它的年限就是這個樣子，那個是政府跟人民的信賴保護原則，現在我們要延役，也要照核管法的規定，5年前提出延役的準備，現在已經過了那個時間，所以依法我們就是把它停下來。"],["張委員嘉郡：就是希望說……假設院長有這樣子的想法的話，我相信不管是藍綠白都會大力地支持，只要院長願意，我覺得修法的問題是次要的，反而是對於國家現在面臨的挑戰我們要怎麼樣一起去因應，這一點也希望院長可能記在心裡，希望對國家最有利的方式，我們可以回歸理性、專業的討論，也拜託院長記在心上。我想部長是從產業來的，他也一定會去做專業的評估，就拜託院長及部長好好地思考一下，因為本席真的不希望我們臺灣的競爭力就錯失在用電供應不足，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長常常跟我們說，安全穩定供電是我們共同關注的，我們一樣要把這個事情做好，讓部長說明一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在是這樣子，我們撇開這個法的問題來講，現在的核二、核三，確實你把它降載，你一定要先停、檢查，檢查完了以後可以用才有辦法開啟，不能用、有危險，它就不能用，因為安全是我們第一個考量。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，當然。"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，我們之前就已經考慮這樣一個現象，所以我們到2030年……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以是有考慮要重啟核能的？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有備案在。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以，部長，你現在是在告訴本席說，其實你心中是有重啟核能的備案，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們什麼事情都可以考量，事先就可以考量，但是以目前，我們是沒有辦法在2030年，就是說在五年內是沒有辦法使用核能，如果它可以使用，我們也沒有辦法使用。"],["張委員嘉郡：這一點，大家可以再好好來討論，希望可以找出好的辦法，因為這個缺電的問題其實影響的不只是產業，也影響民生，而且下至每一個人民，上至整體臺灣的未來。所以這一點希望院長跟部長可以記在心上，然後趕快去面對這個問題，而不是粉飾太平說我們沒有缺電問題。實際上，本席看到的包括上一次跳電，我們的備載容量只剩下3%，只剩下3%就要迎接全臺大停電了，台電跟上一任的經濟部長還在說完全沒有問題！完全沒有問題！甚至還一再否認說他們有在準備要跳電的問題，我覺得我們真的應該是好好地用專業去判斷、用理性去判斷這件事情。","接下來，我想要請教院長的是國土計畫法。我想這個國土計畫法，院長這幾天已經聽到都耳熟能詳，可能也已經聽到有點膩了，但是院長，2025年國土計畫法就要上路了，雲林是受到影響最大的一個縣市之一，請問院長知不知道國土計畫法裡面預計全國農地的總量是多少公頃？"],["卓院長榮泰：120萬。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，但是你知道雲林縣被劃為農地的有多少嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：8.9萬。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，將近全國最高，是全國劃第一名的縣市，而且雲林縣農1、農2的土地合計八萬八千多公頃，面積真的是超乎……如果以人平均農地責任額來說，我們是臺北市的638倍，您覺得這合理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們說雲林縣一直是我們心中的農業大縣，所以它的農地也多，各方面的條件就是提供臺灣人民很多農業產品。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們的確是農業大縣，但我們也想朝農工商高科技並進的城市努力啊，我們不想要我們的農民變成世代農奴，而且假設說種田賺不到錢的話，你把農地都劃了，但是大家都不回去種田，你到時候徒有農地、沒有農民，你要怎麼保障糧食安全呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們希望臺灣均衡發展，像剛剛委員所提到的，在雲林科技園區的發展，就是未來雲林再轉型，但是雲林的土地中當作農業使用，它一定有它的傳統。未來還是要維持一定比例的土地，但是轉型的過程當中，需要更多的協助。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以院長，本席也想要提出，希望國土計劃法可以暫緩實施，因為目前來說，細部規劃不只是雲林縣，全臺灣很多縣市都有疑慮，所以希望可以把細部都討論完善之後再來實施，因為目前可能是我們雲林縣人比較善良，儘量按照國土署的標準，結果農業部對於某些縣市就比較通融，像屏東縣本來對於私人土地，像我們提出私人土地要劃為農2，這樣農業部就不同意，但屏東縣只要是私人土地都可以劃為農2，原本屏東要劃4萬公頃的農1，最後只劃了4,000公頃，這個農業部也同意，但雲林要劃設1,500公頃的農2卻被農業部打回票。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，你剛才講的是一個錯誤的訊息，因為……"],["張委員嘉郡：你不要再說是我有誤解！我們來看這個公文……"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分在各縣市國土審議委員會的時候，我們都針對……"],["張委員嘉郡：我們沒有誤解，我覺得是你行政有偏差，院長，你同意他這樣說嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，在農業發展地區，我們依照國土計畫的內容……"],["張委員嘉郡：屏東也是啊！屏東也是一個農業發展地區啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：各個縣市應該都是標準一致，不會有特定獨厚哪一個縣市。"],["張委員嘉郡：就這個公文來說，院長，包括部長本身都說會尊重地方政府劃分的權限，但是針對我們要劃設農2的部分才1,500公頃，可是這個回函裡面卻說因為沒有通過審查會議，所以無法作為劃設的依據，不准我們將交流道附近的這個區域劃成農2，而且這些審查依據是農業部提供給內政部的，這就叫作尊重地方劃設的權限嗎？不能理解的是，在細部規劃都沒有明確之前，為什麼要著急推動呢？可不可以緩一緩呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，由內政部來答復你。"],["劉部長世芳：我先跟委員回復一下，好嗎？國土計畫法的實施，對於農民的權益，還有農地變更的部分完全沒有改變。"],["張委員嘉郡：是怎麼樣沒有改變？"],["劉部長世芳：所以合法農地的保障……"],["張委員嘉郡：哪裡沒有改變？我已經聽過部長講了好幾次，其實我也好奇，部長說農民的權益沒有改變，農地的使用沒有改變。"],["劉部長世芳：合法農地的權益也沒有改變，如果你要改變的話，不管是農1變成農2或者其他的部分，可以透過5年的通盤檢討，或是相接計畫的發展，所以這個部分，雲林縣政府在4場說明會的時候都非常清楚所有的程序。"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在要求的是標準全國要一致，全國要一致才公平。"],["劉部長世芳：全部一致，你所提到的屏東縣政府是24年前的法律。"],["張委員嘉郡：因為雲林縣目前在進行國土計畫第三階段功能分區的劃設，雲林縣現在也要比照屏東縣的標準，所有私人土地都劃設為農2，農業部會不會再打回票呢？這一點我也希望部長可以回答。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，因為目前是縣市政府主導規劃的，縣市政府召開的國土審議委員會，我們都會去參加，而且會表……"],["張委員嘉郡：我只說一句，不可能那麼巧，不可能那麼巧屏東所有的私人土地都剛好符合農2的標準吧？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，你現在所說的屏東縣的部分是24年前的法律，跟現在106年所推動的國土計畫法完全不一樣。"],["張委員嘉郡：我希望部長不要再有誤解。院長，你知道目前有幾個縣市上繳區分圖嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：目前就我們所知道，大概只有4個縣市政府是有困擾的，4個縣市政府有困擾。"],["卓院長榮泰：目前只有3個上繳。"],["張委員嘉郡：目前只有3個繳交區分圖，期限是6月30日以前，為什麼大家都不繳？明年就要實施了，全國只有3個縣市繳……"],["劉部長世芳：因為時程還沒有到。"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，可不可以延後實施呢？有沒有考慮要延後實施呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，現在上繳的只有3個縣市沒有錯，但是內政部有一一去徵詢其他的縣市，目前所知應該是只有4個縣市表示它有困難，其他縣市我們希望能夠如期報上來。"],["張委員嘉郡：基本上，我不是不理解，內政部長也很努力，但是我真心希望你們不要急就章，我們不是在找你們麻煩，我們只是希望這件事情的實施，不要造成民眾的困擾。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["張委員嘉郡：如果可以再審慎研議、緩一緩，就算你緩一年、緩兩年，我們再把它討論的更周延一點，對於行政機關其實才是一勞永逸，也不會實施了之後又問題一堆，所以我真的要特別拜託院長，也要拜託部長，可以體諒民眾，就算他知道他的權益不會受損，他也會擔心，你知道嗎？因為他不理解會不會有他不懂的地方，所以是不是能夠辦更多的說明會，讓他們更理解之後，再來實施呢？這一點會不會有困難呢？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，針對劃為農業發展區的部分，他只要從事農業，權益完全不會變，而且能享受更多的……"],["張委員嘉郡：到底哪裡不會變呢？是不是可以邀請兩位部長到雲林縣來跟我們的農民做說明呢？因為你現在在這裡跟我說不會變，跟農民的理解是完全有落差的。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，剛剛部長說過，他們有辦過4場說明會……"],["劉部長世芳：我們有44場跟雲林縣政府的說明會。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是我告訴你，你如果去做民調，雲林縣有80%以上的農民對這件事情都不理解。"],["劉部長世芳：那是因為有錯誤訊息的傳達，所以造成農民的誤解。"],["張委員嘉郡：我是不是可以邀請兩位部長來說明，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們現在透過……"],["張委員嘉郡：你們兩位部長親自來說明，我相信你們一定有辦法把它一一地說清楚。本席沒有反對，我只希望在你們說明白之前，可以暫緩實施好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我希望委員可以告訴我們實際例子上對農民權益受損的是哪一些地方，我們可以根據實例來做說明，謝謝。"],["張委員嘉郡：因為我的時間有限，這一點我希望是不是可以邀請你們，院長可以指示兩位部長到雲林來辦說明會嗎？我們可以把所有的村里長、所有的農會、所有的農民代表都邀請來，好好地跟他們說明清楚，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有，現在我已經請地政司邀請其他的農民團體來參加，我們的國土署每一場都會參與。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。本席還要再提一個有關於農業權的概念，在國際上已經行之有年，而且是廣泛實施的制度化概念，源自於英國發展權轉移的概念，即Transfer of  Development Rights（TDR），在美國馬里蘭州，甚至紐澤西州都有類似的制度；簡單來說，某些縣市必須背負更多的農地責任額，就必須要給予相對性的補償，以兼顧農地所有權人的權益，這才是發展農業的長久之計。在巴黎協定當中，已開發國家對發展中國家做的氣候補償，也是類似的概念，不曉得院長有沒有聽過這樣的概念？"],["卓院長榮泰：農業部已經實施一段時間的對地綠色補助，就是朝這個方向、這個理念在進行。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長想的跟我們所提的農業權概念是有一點點不一樣啦！所以這一點本席也希望，目前我們是有提出一個方案，即每公頃40萬的補貼，但是細部的部分，如果院長覺得這個概念是可行的，數字的部分我覺得是可以討論……"],["陳部長駿季：我可不可以跟委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：希望農民權益可以獲得保障，否則就像我剛剛講的，農民空有農地，如果種田都種不活、沒有辦法溫飽，他怎麼會繼續去種田呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，國土計畫法是讓全國的土地有效、合理地運用。"],["張委員嘉郡：是！這是我們共同的期待。"],["卓院長榮泰：所有的劃分全國各縣市標準一致，我們不會獨厚哪裡。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，特別……"],["卓院長榮泰：再來，他如果真的有需要，5年還是可以再檢討的。至於剛剛說的農業對地補助，我們希望在現在的基礎上面，我們好好地把它執行下去，也要考慮到很多財政相關的問題，這個也請委員支持。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這就是我接下來要講的，有關於院長在說AI創新之上要加上民主元素，訂一套民主AI基本法。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯，AI不能去侵害人權。"],["張委員嘉郡：對！可以看出院長想要傳達行政團隊對於民主體制、民主原則是非常尊重、非常注重的。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們共同追求的目標。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯。但本席想要請教的就是財政收支劃分法，如果民主的反義詞是集權，現行財劃法就是一個集權的財劃法，為什麼這麼說呢？因為我們上一次修法是25年前，25年前為了精省，我們重修財劃法，在修法以前，中央跟地方的財源大約是60比40，在修法之後，就變成75比25；在那一次的修法，地方失去了15%的財源，院長覺得把財源集中在地方自治的落實是有利，還是不利呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：中央的想法是財源一定要平均分配到各個地方去，兼顧到地方的需求，所以這麼多年來，我們補助給地方的金額是越來越多、越來越多，以後也是朝這個方向去想。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們是不是也給院長看一段影片，好不好？我們來看一下當時的賴清德市長跟賴清德行政院長是怎麼說的呢？","（播放影片）"],["張委員嘉郡：其實當初的賴清德市長跟賴清德行政院長，他是非常體恤民情的，我相信他現在擔任總統也是一樣，當時您是擔任行政院秘書長，您應該也很清楚他苦民所苦的心，他也是支持地方自治的，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以當時沒有辦法繼續走，就是因為垂直分配、水平分配的問題，但是，即使在那個之後，中央對地方的各項補助，包括長照、包括前瞻、包括統籌分配款。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你還是在講一個集權概念嘛！就是說中央要去補助，為什麼不直接劃分給地方呢？因為地方自治就是檢驗民主政治是否真正落實的重要基準啊！對於中央集權的這個概念……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果照現在的計算方法……"],["張委員嘉郡：為什麼要把財源都攬在中央呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：那只有多的越來越多，少的不會更多啦！如果照現在提出的……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以每個縣市都希望院長關愛的眼神……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定是在均衡臺灣的理念下做到平衡的……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以希望院長可以支持財政收支劃分法重新討論，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止，我們下午2點30分繼續開會進行質詢，我們現在休息。","休息（12時25分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":29,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1135701_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"154043","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154043","tool":"pyannote","id":"154043-pyannote"},"job_id":"rzm53LRK6aHKDnUu","queued_at":"2024-06-14 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{\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"千\", \"start\": 1068.976, \"end\": 1069.216, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1069.216, \"end\": 1069.456, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 1069.456, \"end\": 1070.357, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"頃\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 1070.357, \"end\": 1071.357, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 1071.357, \"end\": 1071.517, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1071.517, \"end\": 1071.717, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1071.717, \"end\": 1072.297, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 1072.297, \"end\": 1072.677, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"乎\", \"start\": 1072.677, \"end\": 1073.177, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 1073.177, \"end\": 1073.317, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 1073.317, \"end\": 1073.637, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1073.637, \"end\": 1074.217, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1074.217, \"end\": 1074.477, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 1074.477, \"end\": 1074.757, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"均\", \"start\": 1074.757, \"end\": 1075.858, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 1075.858, \"end\": 1076.258, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 1076.258, \"end\": 1077.298, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1077.298, \"end\": 1077.858, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1077.858, \"end\": 1078.558, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"北\", \"start\": 1078.558, \"end\": 1078.938, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 1078.938, \"end\": 1079.218, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1079.218, \"end\": 1081.479, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"倍\", \"start\": 1081.479, \"end\": 1081.919, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 1081.919, \"end\": 1082.239, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 1082.239, \"end\": 1082.539, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 1082.539, \"end\": 1082.699, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 1082.699, \"end\": 1082.719, \"score\": 0.549}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 1083.632, \"end\": 1103.859, \"text\": \"所以我們說雲林縣一直是我們心中的農業大縣所以它的農地也多各方面的條件就是提供臺灣人民很多的…我們的確是農業大縣但我們也想朝農工商高科技並進的城市努力啊我們不想要說我們的農民變成世代農奴而且假設說種田\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1083.632, \"end\": 1083.712, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1083.712, \"end\": 1083.772, \"score\": 0.641}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1083.772, \"end\": 1084.912, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"雲\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 1084.912, \"end\": 1085.233, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1085.233, \"end\": 1085.333, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 1085.333, \"end\": 1085.493, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1085.493, \"end\": 1085.653, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1085.653, \"end\": 1086.373, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 1086.373, \"end\": 1086.593, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 1086.593, \"end\": 1086.793, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1086.793, \"end\": 1087.313, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 1087.313, \"end\": 1088.274, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1088.274, \"end\": 1088.354, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1088.354, \"end\": 1088.394, \"score\": 0.426}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1088.394, \"end\": 1088.514, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1088.514, \"end\": 1088.794, 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{\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1095.296, \"end\": 1095.496, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 1095.496, \"end\": 1095.816, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"朝\", \"start\": 1095.816, \"end\": 1096.656, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 1096.656, \"end\": 1096.896, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 1096.896, \"end\": 1097.196, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 1097.196, \"end\": 1097.456, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 1097.456, \"end\": 1097.697, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 1097.697, \"end\": 1098.397, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1098.397, \"end\": 1098.537, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"城\", \"start\": 1098.537, \"end\": 1098.837, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 1098.837, \"end\": 1099.077, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 1099.077, \"end\": 1099.297, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 1099.297, \"end\": 1099.417, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 1099.417, \"end\": 1099.597, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1099.597, \"end\": 1099.897, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1099.897, \"end\": 1100.037, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 1100.037, \"end\": 1100.217, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1100.217, \"end\": 1100.557, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1100.557, \"end\": 1100.858, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1100.858, \"end\": 1101.198, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1101.198, \"end\": 1101.878, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 1101.878, \"end\": 1102.098, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 1102.098, \"end\": 1102.358, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 1102.358, \"end\": 1102.578, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"奴\", \"start\": 1102.578, \"end\": 1103.318, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 1103.318, \"end\": 1103.498, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 1103.498, \"end\": 1103.738, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 1103.738, \"end\": 1103.839, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"田\", \"start\": 1103.839, \"end\": 1103.859, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1105.299, \"end\": 1111.981, \"text\": \"所以我們希望台灣均衡發展像剛剛委員所提到的在雲林那個科技園區的發展就是未來雲林再轉型但是雲林的土地當作農業使用它一定有它的傳統未來還是一定維持一定的比例的土地但是轉型的過程當中需要更多的協助\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1105.299, \"end\": 1105.479, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1105.479, \"end\": 1105.579, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1105.579, \"end\": 1105.679, \"score\": 0.634}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 1105.679, \"end\": 1105.699, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 1105.699, \"end\": 1105.819, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 1105.819, \"end\": 1106.039, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"均\", \"start\": 1106.039, \"end\": 1106.519, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"衡\", \"start\": 1106.519, \"end\": 1106.639, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 1106.639, \"end\": 1106.659, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 1106.659, \"end\": 1106.759, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1106.759, \"end\": 1106.819, \"score\": 0.65}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1106.819, \"end\": 1106.999, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1106.999, \"end\": 1107.119, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1107.119, \"end\": 1107.139, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1107.139, \"end\": 1107.36, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1107.36, \"end\": 1107.58, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"雲\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 1107.58, \"end\": 1107.6, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1107.6, \"end\": 1107.68, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 1107.68, \"end\": 1107.72, \"score\": 0.309}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 1107.72, \"end\": 1107.74, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1107.74, \"end\": 1107.76, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 1107.76, \"end\": 1107.94, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1107.94, \"end\": 1107.96, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1107.96, \"end\": 1108.52, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 1108.52, \"end\": 1108.62, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"雲\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 1108.62, \"end\": 1108.66, \"score\": 0.446}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1108.66, \"end\": 1108.68, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 1108.68, \"end\": 1108.76, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 1108.76, \"end\": 1108.78, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1108.78, \"end\": 1108.82, \"score\": 0.452}, {\"word\": \"雲\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 1108.82, \"end\": 1108.84, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1108.84, \"end\": 1108.96, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 1108.96, \"end\": 1108.98, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 1108.98, \"end\": 1109.06, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 1109.06, \"end\": 1109.1, \"score\": 0.496}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 1109.1, \"end\": 1109.12, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 1109.12, \"end\": 1109.14, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1109.14, \"end\": 1109.22, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1109.22, \"end\": 1109.24, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1109.24, \"end\": 1109.26, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1109.26, \"end\": 1109.28, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1109.28, \"end\": 1109.36, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1109.36, \"end\": 1109.44, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"傳\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 1109.44, \"end\": 1109.58, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1109.58, \"end\": 1109.62, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1109.62, \"end\": 1109.64, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1109.64, \"end\": 1109.66, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 1109.66, \"end\": 1109.68, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1109.68, \"end\": 1109.78, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1109.78, \"end\": 1109.8, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1109.8, \"end\": 1109.82, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1109.82, \"end\": 1109.84, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 1109.84, \"end\": 1109.96, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1109.96, \"end\": 1109.98, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 1109.98, \"end\": 1110.0, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 1110.0, \"end\": 1110.1, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 1110.1, \"end\": 1110.34, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1110.34, \"end\": 1110.42, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 1110.42, \"end\": 1110.5, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1110.5, \"end\": 1110.98, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 1110.98, \"end\": 1111.16, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 1111.16, \"end\": 1111.18, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 1111.18, \"end\": 1111.401, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1111.401, \"end\": 1111.681, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 1111.681, \"end\": 1111.841, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1280.484, \"end\": 1280.644, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1280.644, \"end\": 1280.844, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 1280.844, \"end\": 1280.965, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1280.965, \"end\": 1280.985, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1280.985, \"end\": 1281.165, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1281.165, \"end\": 1281.305, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 1281.305, \"end\": 1281.325, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1300.583, \"end\": 1301.123, \"text\": \"我跟委員報告\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1300.583, \"end\": 1300.883, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1300.883, \"end\": 1301.003, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1301.003, \"end\": 1301.103, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1301.103, \"end\": 1301.123, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1323.656, \"end\": 1345.692, \"text\": \"因為現在目前是縣市政府主導做規劃的那縣市政府召開的國土審議委員會我們都會去參加而且會表我只希望說一句就是說不可能那麼巧吧不可能那麼巧屏東所有的私人土地都剛好符合農惡的標準吧報告委員你現在所說的屏東縣的部分是24年前的法律所以呢我希望說部長不要再讓我誤解院長你知道目前有幾個縣市上繳這個區分圖嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1323.656, \"end\": 1324.036, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1324.036, \"end\": 1324.177, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 1324.177, \"end\": 1324.317, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1324.317, \"end\": 1324.477, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1324.477, \"end\": 1324.657, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 1324.657, \"end\": 1324.957, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1324.957, \"end\": 1325.117, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 1325.117, \"end\": 1325.277, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 1325.277, \"end\": 1325.598, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": 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1429.513, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"諒\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1429.513, \"end\": 1430.533, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1430.533, \"end\": 1430.934, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 1430.934, \"end\": 1431.394, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1431.394, \"end\": 1431.654, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 1431.654, \"end\": 1431.875, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 1431.875, \"end\": 1431.895, \"score\": 0.539}]}, {\"start\": 1432.295, \"end\": 1433.076, \"text\": \"我跟委員報告,就是針對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1432.295, \"end\": 1432.435, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1432.435, \"end\": 1432.575, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1432.575, \"end\": 1432.595, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1432.595, \"end\": 1432.856, \"score\": 0.893}, 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\"會\"}, {\"word\": \"變\"}]}, {\"start\": 1464.813, \"end\": 1467.716, \"text\": \"跟農民的理解是完全有落差的。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1464.813, \"end\": 1465.273, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1465.273, \"end\": 1465.434, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1465.434, \"end\": 1465.594, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 1465.594, \"end\": 1465.834, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 1465.834, \"end\": 1466.014, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1466.014, \"end\": 1466.475, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 1466.475, \"end\": 1466.735, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1466.735, \"end\": 1466.975, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1466.975, \"end\": 1467.175, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 1467.175, \"end\": 1467.436, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 1467.436, \"end\": 1467.696, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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\"end\": 1520.102, \"text\": \"院長你可以指示兩位部長到雲林來說明會嗎?我們可以把所有的村里長啊,所有的這個農會啊,所有的這個農民代表都邀請來好好的對他們說明清證這裡嗎?好,好,那我們謝謝。那本期還要再提一個有關於農業權的概念喔。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1511.596, \"end\": 1511.956, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1511.956, \"end\": 1512.056, \"score\": 0.516}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1512.056, \"end\": 1512.156, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1512.156, \"end\": 1512.236, \"score\": 0.356}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 1512.236, \"end\": 1512.376, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"示\", \"start\": 1512.376, \"end\": 1512.737, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 1512.737, \"end\": 1512.937, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1512.937, \"end\": 1513.297, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1513.297, \"end\": 1513.657, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"雲\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 1513.657, \"end\": 1514.638, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": 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\"start\": 1806.248, \"end\": 1806.268, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,018 --> 00:00:04,480\n院長我想請卓院長再請卓院長備選卓院長好這次我們的AI行動內閣禁用了很多實務界的專業人士那各界也都很期待我們的內閣團隊是一個很接地氣的內閣那院長對我們的內閣有什麼樣的期許呢?\n\n2\n00:00:24,721 --> 00:00:46,876\n謝謝委員對我們的肯定。當然你所說的我們有來自產業界有來自學術界也有原來在陳建仁院長時代留下來的幾位很優秀的部會首長我希望新舊之間盡快的融合我們跟人民展現的就是我們要用行動積極行動跟創新的理念將它放在我們對每一項所以我們說我們會到\n\n3\n00:00:49,397 --> 00:01:14,315\n發現問題的第一線解決問題的第一線也提出正確方法的第一線我們會努力讓自己在這個工作上做好自己應該有的責任本席也對院長所帶領的內閣團隊充滿了期待希望可以排除藍綠之間的爭議做一些扶國立民真正對台灣好的政策那我知道院長很少提到家庭不曉得院長當阿公了沒有\n\n4\n00:01:14,975 --> 00:01:16,058\n我只是有老人卡而已。\n\n5\n00:01:22,641 --> 00:01:51,013\n有一個趨勢要讓院長知道從2016開始我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如從這個臺灣的生育率有每況愈下從2020年開始我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如死的狀況每年以一萬這樣子的人口數下降這樣子急劇的下降那可以說是少子化變成一個國安問題為什麼年輕人不敢生院長知道嗎\n\n6\n00:01:53,538 --> 00:02:06,576\n有一些是社會環境的變遷,有一些是經濟的因素,還有很多就是生下來之後他的教養問題,國家還要持續的給他更多的協助。沒錯,院長講到重點,其實就是教養問題,就是經濟問題,\n\n7\n00:02:08,959 --> 00:02:28,282\n那現在行政院要推動托育政策2.0版但很奇怪的是少子化明明是越來越嚴重但是很多爸爸媽媽在替小朋友抽公幼還是抽不到不曉得院長有沒有朋友跟你反應過說欸怎麼辦抽不到欸怎麼樣都抽不到公幼有沒有\n\n8\n00:02:29,404 --> 00:02:44,179\n欸過去蠻嚴重那現在這個情形稍稍有舒緩但是政府的各項的措施包括公托準公托的這個設施還要繼續的強化精進沒錯就是目前就讀私立幼兒園的學生數是38.5萬佔比67.6%那讀公幼的\n\n9\n00:02:49,364 --> 00:02:49,604\n當然我們會持續的\n\n10\n00:03:18,598 --> 00:03:46,675\n在各地方徵定這個相關的公共化的這個幼兒中心讓大家需要的爸爸媽媽跟小朋友都能夠有一個更好的學習環境是這個我們都共同的期待那在公幼銜接上需求之前本席建議院長是不是可以考慮先提高育兒津貼跟托育補助因為目前現行的育兒津貼而言第一胎每個月只有五千塊\n\n11\n00:03:47,495 --> 00:03:47,935\n﹚張嘉郡﹚張嘉郡﹚\n\n12\n00:04:07,907 --> 00:04:18,756\n的這個補助來做修正來修正這個補助那當然這個物價指數大幅提高超過警戒值的時候希望我們行政院可以有所因應\n\n13\n00:04:19,950 --> 00:04:20,650\n拜託院長特別關心\n\n14\n00:04:41,076 --> 00:04:56,524\n財政衡量容許的範圍當中盡量鼓勵也盡量照顧。繼續願意來幫助這些有小baby的家庭,然後也鼓勵更多的年輕人願意生小孩。謝謝院長。接下來院長最近最夯的議題就是有關於AI產業的發展。國家的半導體產業跟AI產業的發展是一個關鍵時刻,尤其台積電、輝達等大廠都相繼想要擴廠、設廠。\n\n15\n00:05:09,690 --> 00:05:09,810\n﹚張嘉郡\n\n16\n00:05:31,095 --> 00:05:31,115\n﹚台湯\n\n17\n00:05:59,059 --> 00:05:59,299\n中科二期擴大。\n\n18\n00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:47,877\n首先我們都非常感謝黃仁勳執行長他的喜愛夜市讓臺灣的美食揚名世界那我們會繼續把我們的夜市做得乾淨漂亮而且衛生營養再就是輝達公司在內湖的總部目前使用的狀況他已經接近相當的這個飽和之中了\n\n19\n00:06:48,317 --> 00:07:13,350\n那他會尋求各地方但是這個除了他公司的產業的布局選擇之外我們也希望他選擇台灣的任何一個地方我們都能夠提供最好的公共服務基礎設施的服務那但是這樣世界的大廠要選擇在哪裡他現在還沒有做明確的規定明示底下我們現在只能是等待他做好更多的地方的選擇跟調查\n\n20\n00:07:14,813 --> 00:07:30,337\n當然但是本席剛剛第二個問題就是說我們現在中科二期擴大現在沒有說現在已經拿到用水同意函用電同意函跟用地同意函已經進入到土地變更的這個期程在之前呢\n\n21\n00:07:31,077 --> 00:07:54,652\n經濟部是一直都非常支持目前需要農業部儘速地把變更土地核定下來我們就會跟上台積電明年要設廠的期程這一點可不可以拜託院長督促農業部儘速地來審查我們的土地變更案呢?初步計畫審查通過現在是取得用地的階段\n\n22\n00:07:56,713 --> 00:08:17,098\n用地已經同意了,我們已經拿到了臺堂的用地同意函。臺堂的部分沒有問題,現在是私人土地,那邊有一個高爾夫球場。我們沒有高爾夫球場,你弄錯了。中科二期在湖尾。我們全部都已經送到農業部,要等待農業部審查,所以希望農業部可以儘速審查。\n\n23\n00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:47,699\n各位報告,就是有關於相關的這個專案,如果說整個院的專案合定了以後,農地的變更是一個程序,我們一定會配合。是,拜託部長可以盡速的來審查完成,因為這不只對雲林縣很重要,對台灣未來的發展也很重要,因為中科二期擴大雖然只有32.8公頃,但是它連結,\n\n24\n00:08:51,923 --> 00:09:19,740\n這個寶中土庫東勢整個台塘的農場1600公頃放眼未來50年假設AI產業跟半導體要繼續深耕在臺灣的話它上下有整合有充沛的土地包括我們雲林縣有湖山水庫包括海水淡化廠包括我們有吉祺蘭河縣的這些水我們有充沛的用水用電包括我們有充沛的這個太陽能光電跟再生能源等等\n\n25\n00:09:20,140 --> 00:09:20,180\n﹚張嘉郡\n\n26\n00:09:46,072 --> 00:09:48,593\n經濟部也是一樣,當然行政院長整合以後我們一定是全力支持。\n\n27\n00:10:08,327 --> 00:10:16,916\n當然AI產業是我們重大的產業發展的方向。對於AI產業的發展,院長認為我們目前最大的挑戰是什麼?\n\n28\n00:10:21,674 --> 00:10:43,428\n應體的設施跟軟體的加強之外應該是要跟世界各個進步的國家跟廠商都合作但是最重要還是要培育我們足夠的人才是人才是一個很大的需求那當然用電上面我是說全國的用電上面也是一個很大的問題前幾天我在經濟委員會已經問過了部長\n\n29\n00:10:45,649 --> 00:11:06,669\n就是說AI的伺服器耗電量是傳統伺服器的3至20倍在美國CHARTGPT每天要消耗56萬度的電相當於我們臺灣夏季用電每天4萬戶的這個用電院長你覺得我們有辦法負荷得起嗎?\n\n30\n00:11:07,618 --> 00:11:22,018\n國部長幾次談過臺電對現在用電的評估到2030前我們還是手上握有相當的餘裕但是要針對高科技的發展現在政府更必須積極的去拓展更多的多元的能\n\n31\n00:11:22,318 --> 00:11:22,398\n﹚張嘉郡\n\n32\n00:11:40,453 --> 00:12:07,608\n是。當然在生能源、綠能這些本席都非常非常的支持。我覺得這是一個全世界的趨勢。但是院長有考過考慮過以核養綠嗎?有沒有考慮再把核三或者是核一、核二把它重啟呢?就是核三因為核三今年就要除役了。那可能會有一個6至7%的這個用電缺口。院長怎麼看這個用電缺口?\n\n33\n00:12:09,912 --> 00:12:38,827\n我希望透過這個時間也向委員說明河山廠一號機今年7月二號機明年都會除役。對,二號機明年5月17。現在現在我是說假設即使要研議的話我們要經過很長的安全檢查的程序。是。汰換箱裡面檢查出後的可能的一些機組的設備零件。所以我們在3年半到5年當中河山廠的一號機二號機是不可能發電的。\n\n34\n00:12:39,907 --> 00:12:59,850\n所以5年後的問題他能不能發電還是個問題但5年後的狀況不是我們今天面對今天問題可以解決的這一點我也要提醒這個院長啊就是說其實我們的核能這個發電機我們的使用年限只有歐洲跟這個美國的一半\n\n35\n00:13:00,450 --> 00:13:00,490\n﹚張嘉郡\n\n36\n00:13:28,780 --> 00:13:30,702\n我只跟你們報告40年前我們設核電廠的時候就規定了它的年限就是這個樣子\n\n37\n00:13:42,625 --> 00:13:58,418\n那個是政府跟人民的信賴保護原則現在我們要研議也要照核管法的規定五年前提出研議的準備那現在已經過了那個時間了就是希望說假設院長有這樣子的想法的話我相信不管是藍綠\n\n38\n00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:17,435\n拜都會大力的支持只要院長願意我覺得修法的問題反而是次要反而是我們國家現在面臨的挑戰我們要怎麼樣一起去因應這一點也希望院長可以記在心裡因為這個國家最有力\n\n39\n00:14:18,095 --> 00:14:44,819\n希望對國家最有利的這個方式我們可以回歸理性專業的這樣子的討論這一點也拜託院長記在心上那我想部長他是從產業來的他也一定會去做一個專業的評估這一點就拜託院長跟部長好好的思考一下因為本席真的不希望說我們台灣的這個競爭力就錯失在我們的這個用電供應不足\n\n40\n00:14:45,359 --> 00:15:03,030\n部長常常跟我們說安全穩定供電是我們共同關注的我們一樣要把這個事情做好讓部長說明一下報告委員現在這樣就是說這個我們撇開這個法的問題來講的話現在那個核二核三他確實\n\n41\n00:15:04,266 --> 00:15:24,188\n你把它降載你一定要先停檢查檢查完了以後可以用才有辦法開啟不能用有危險它是不能用因為安全是我們第一個考量那我跟委員報告就是說我們考慮之前就已經考慮這樣一個現象所以我們到2030年\n\n42\n00:15:25,649 --> 00:15:50,767\n所以是有考慮要重啟核能的,所以部長你現在是在告訴本席說其實你心中是有重啟核能的備案是嗎?我們什麼事情都可以考量,事先就可以考量,但是以目前我們是沒有辦法在2030年就是說在這個5年內是沒有辦法使用這個核能,如果它可以使用我們也沒有辦法使用。\n\n43\n00:15:51,363 --> 00:16:06,905\n這一點大家我們可以再好好來討論希望可以找出好的辦法因為這個缺電的問題其實是影響不只是產業也影響民生而且是下至每一個人民\n\n44\n00:16:07,426 --> 00:16:07,626\n﹚張嘉郡\n\n45\n00:16:33,277 --> 00:16:33,657\n﹚張嘉郡﹚\n\n46\n00:16:48,314 --> 00:16:48,354\n國土計劃法\n\n47\n00:17:07,611 --> 00:17:25,817\n但是呢,院長目前2025年國土計劃法就要上路了。雲林是受到影響最大的一個縣市之一。請問院長知不知道國土計劃法裡面預計全國農地的總量是多少公頃嗎?120萬。但是你知道雲林縣被劃為農地有多少嗎?8.9萬公頃。\n\n48\n00:17:37,774 --> 00:18:02,719\n是將近全國最高是全國化第一名的縣市而且雲林縣農一農二的土地合計8萬8千多公頃面積真的是超乎如果說以人平均這個農地責任額來說我們是臺北市的638倍您覺得這合理嗎?\n\n49\n00:18:03,632 --> 00:18:23,859\n所以我們說雲林縣一直是我們心中的農業大縣所以它的農地也多各方面的條件就是提供臺灣人民很多的…我們的確是農業大縣但我們也想朝農工商高科技並進的城市努力啊我們不想要說我們的農民變成世代農奴而且假設說種田\n\n50\n00:18:25,299 --> 00:18:31,981\n所以我們希望台灣均衡發展像剛剛委員所提到的在雲林那個科技園區的發展就是未來雲林再轉型但是雲林的土地當作農業使用它一定有它的傳統未來還是一定維持一定的比例的土地但是轉型的過程當中需要更多的協助\n\n51\n00:18:53,146 --> 00:19:20,220\n所以院長本席也想要提出就是說希望這個國土計劃法可以暫緩實施因為目前來說系部規劃不只是雲林縣全台灣很多縣市都有疑慮所以希望說可以把系部都討論完善之後再來實施因為目前可能是我們雲林縣人比較善良盡量按照這個國土署的標準\n\n52\n00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:20,600\n﹚張嘉郡\n\n53\n00:19:41,701 --> 00:19:44,645\n我跟委員報告齁,您剛才講的是一個錯誤的訊息喔,因為...你不要再說是我有誤解,來\n\n54\n00:20:01,344 --> 00:20:25,405\n這個部分是在各縣市國土審議委員會的時候,我們都...我們沒有誤解,我覺得是你行政有偏差。院長你同意他這樣說嗎?報告委員,在農業發展地區啊,我們依照他的國土計畫的內容...屏東也是啊,屏東也是一個農業發展地區啊。各個縣市應該都是標準一致啊,不會有特定讀後來的縣市。就是這個公文來說,就是院長,\n\n55\n00:20:26,666 --> 00:20:47,896\n包括部長他本身都說會尊重地方政府劃分的這個權限但是針對我們要劃設農惡的部分才1500公頃這回函裡面說因為沒有通過審查會議所以無法作為劃設的依據不准我們將交流到附近的這個區域劃成農惡而且這些審查依據是農業部提供給內政部的\n\n56\n00:20:49,477 --> 00:21:00,962\n那這些就叫做尊重地方畫色的權限嗎?不能理解的是這是在細部規劃都沒有明確之前呢為什麼要著急推動呢?可不可以緩一緩呢?\n\n57\n00:21:01,601 --> 00:21:04,144\n國土計劃法的實施對於農民的權益還有農地的變更的部分的完全沒有改變。所以說核保的農地的保障,核保農地的。\n\n58\n00:21:20,464 --> 00:21:21,325\n我現在要求的就是說標準\n\n59\n00:21:40,583 --> 00:21:41,123\n我跟委員報告\n\n60\n00:22:03,656 --> 00:22:25,692\n因為現在目前是縣市政府主導做規劃的那縣市政府召開的國土審議委員會我們都會去參加而且會表我只希望說一句就是說不可能那麼巧吧不可能那麼巧屏東所有的私人土地都剛好符合農惡的標準吧報告委員你現在所說的屏東縣的部分是24年前的法律所以呢我希望說部長不要再讓我誤解院長你知道目前有幾個縣市上繳這個區分圖嗎\n\n61\n00:22:32,077 --> 00:22:54,669\n目前就我們所知道大概只有四個縣市政府是有困擾的,所以是只有三個,目前只有三個繳交區分圖,期限是6月30以前,為什麼大家都不繳?因為明年就要實施了全國只有三個縣市繳,院長可不可以延後實施呢?有沒有考慮要延後實施呢?\n\n62\n00:22:55,089 --> 00:22:55,889\n基本上呢我不是不理解說內政部長也很努力\n\n63\n00:23:12,114 --> 00:23:12,294\n謝謝委員：張嘉郡\n\n64\n00:23:28,354 --> 00:23:51,895\n在審慎的研議你緩一緩就算你緩一年緩兩年我們再把它討論得更周延一點對於行政機關其實才是一勞永逸你不會說實施了之後你有問題一堆所以這一點我真的是要特別也要拜託院長拜託部長可以體諒說民眾就算他知道\n\n65\n00:23:52,295 --> 00:23:53,076\n我跟委員報告,就是針對\n\n66\n00:24:09,755 --> 00:24:11,317\n到底哪裡不會變呢?是不是可以邀請兩位部長到我們雲林縣來跟我們的農民做說明呢?因為你現在在這裡跟我說不會變\n\n67\n00:24:24,813 --> 00:24:27,716\n跟農民的理解是完全有落差的。\n\n68\n00:24:49,136 --> 00:24:54,241\n我希望委員可以告訴我們實際例子上對農民的權益受損的是哪一些地方?我的時間有限,我是不是可以邀請\n\n69\n00:25:11,596 --> 00:25:20,102\n院長你可以指示兩位部長到雲林來說明會嗎?我們可以把所有的村里長啊,所有的這個農會啊,所有的這個農民代表都邀請來好好的對他們說明清證這裡嗎?好,好,那我們謝謝。那本期還要再提一個有關於農業權的概念喔。\n\n70\n00:25:33,812 --> 00:25:50,704\n就是說在這個國際上已經行之有年而且是廣泛實施的一個制度化的概念這是源自於英國發展權轉移的一個概念TransferDevelopmentRights在美國馬里蘭州甚至紐澤西州都有類似的制度\n\n71\n00:25:51,064 --> 00:26:16,596\n那簡單來說就是說某些縣市必須背負更多的農地責任額那就必須要給予相對性的一個補償以兼顧農地所有權人的權益這才是發展農業的這個長久之計那在巴黎協定當中以開發國家對發展中國家做的氣候補償也是類似的概念不曉得院長有沒有聽過這樣子的一個概念\n\n72\n00:26:17,761 --> 00:26:39,362\n農業部已經實施一段時間的對地的綠色補助就是朝這個方向這個理念在進行就是部長想的跟我們所提的這個農業權的概念是有一點點不一樣所以這一點本席也希望說目前我們是有提出一個方案就是每公頃40萬的這樣的補貼但是細部的部分\n\n73\n00:26:42,645 --> 00:26:43,406\n跟委員報告一下。\n\n74\n00:27:05,820 --> 00:27:19,811\n國土計劃法是讓全國的土地有效合理的去運用,所有的劃分全國各縣市標準一次,我們不會讀後哪裡。再來就是它如果真的有需要5年還是可以再檢討的。\n\n75\n00:27:44,701 --> 00:28:10,513\n對,可以看出院長想要傳達出行政團隊對於民主體制民主原則是非常尊重的這是我們共同追求的目標沒錯,但本席想要請教的就是財政收支劃分法了如果民主的反義詞是極權呢那我們現行的才化法就是一個極權的才化法為什麼這麼說呢因為我們上一次修法呢就是25年前\n\n76\n00:28:11,493 --> 00:28:13,114\n中央的想法是財源一定要平均分配到各地方去。\n\n77\n00:28:40,052 --> 00:28:41,073\n有人有錢嗎?可以做事情。\n\n78\n00:29:03,871 --> 00:29:09,699\n所以非直轄市的問題非常嚴重所以我們要開始來規劃財政收支劃分化\n\n79\n00:29:14,608 --> 00:29:34,275\n是,所以呢其實當初的賴慶德市長跟賴慶德行政院長他是非常體恤民情的我相信他現在擔任總統也是一樣的當時您是擔任行政院秘書長您應該也很清楚他就是苦民所苦的這樣子的心他也是支持地方自治的是不是?\n\n80\n00:29:34,935 --> 00:30:00,405\n所以當時沒有辦法繼續走,就是因為垂直分配水平分配的問題。但是即使在那個之後,中央對地方的各項補助,包括長照,包括全災,包括共同分配款。所以你還是在講一個極權概念嘛,就是說中央要去補助,為什麼不直接劃分給地方呢?因為地方自治就是檢驗民主政治是否真正落實的重要基準啊。對於中央極權的這個概念,為什麼要把這個\n\n81\n00:30:04,366 --> 00:30:06,268\n謝謝張嘉郡委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告委員會上午的質詢到此為止,我們下午2點30分繼續開會。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1018\t4480\t院長我想請卓院長再請卓院長備選卓院長好這次我們的AI行動內閣禁用了很多實務界的專業人士那各界也都很期待我們的內閣團隊是一個很接地氣的內閣那院長對我們的內閣有什麼樣的期許呢?\n24721\t46876\t謝謝委員對我們的肯定。當然你所說的我們有來自產業界有來自學術界也有原來在陳建仁院長時代留下來的幾位很優秀的部會首長我希望新舊之間盡快的融合我們跟人民展現的就是我們要用行動積極行動跟創新的理念將它放在我們對每一項所以我們說我們會到\n49397\t74315\t發現問題的第一線解決問題的第一線也提出正確方法的第一線我們會努力讓自己在這個工作上做好自己應該有的責任本席也對院長所帶領的內閣團隊充滿了期待希望可以排除藍綠之間的爭議做一些扶國立民真正對台灣好的政策那我知道院長很少提到家庭不曉得院長當阿公了沒有\n74975\t76058\t我只是有老人卡而已。\n82641\t111013\t有一個趨勢要讓院長知道從2016開始我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如從這個臺灣的生育率有每況愈下從2020年開始我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如死的狀況每年以一萬這樣子的人口數下降這樣子急劇的下降那可以說是少子化變成一個國安問題為什麼年輕人不敢生院長知道嗎\n113538\t126576\t有一些是社會環境的變遷,有一些是經濟的因素,還有很多就是生下來之後他的教養問題,國家還要持續的給他更多的協助。沒錯,院長講到重點,其實就是教養問題,就是經濟問題,\n128959\t148282\t那現在行政院要推動托育政策2.0版但很奇怪的是少子化明明是越來越嚴重但是很多爸爸媽媽在替小朋友抽公幼還是抽不到不曉得院長有沒有朋友跟你反應過說欸怎麼辦抽不到欸怎麼樣都抽不到公幼有沒有\n149404\t164179\t欸過去蠻嚴重那現在這個情形稍稍有舒緩但是政府的各項的措施包括公托準公托的這個設施還要繼續的強化精進沒錯就是目前就讀私立幼兒園的學生數是38.5萬佔比67.6%那讀公幼的\n169364\t169604\t當然我們會持續的\n198598\t226675\t在各地方徵定這個相關的公共化的這個幼兒中心讓大家需要的爸爸媽媽跟小朋友都能夠有一個更好的學習環境是這個我們都共同的期待那在公幼銜接上需求之前本席建議院長是不是可以考慮先提高育兒津貼跟托育補助因為目前現行的育兒津貼而言第一胎每個月只有五千塊\n227495\t227935\t﹚張嘉郡﹚張嘉郡﹚\n247907\t258756\t的這個補助來做修正來修正這個補助那當然這個物價指數大幅提高超過警戒值的時候希望我們行政院可以有所因應\n259950\t260650\t拜託院長特別關心\n281076\t296524\t財政衡量容許的範圍當中盡量鼓勵也盡量照顧。繼續願意來幫助這些有小baby的家庭,然後也鼓勵更多的年輕人願意生小孩。謝謝院長。接下來院長最近最夯的議題就是有關於AI產業的發展。國家的半導體產業跟AI產業的發展是一個關鍵時刻,尤其台積電、輝達等大廠都相繼想要擴廠、設廠。\n309690\t309810\t﹚張嘉郡\n331095\t331115\t﹚台湯\n359059\t359299\t中科二期擴大。\n386280\t407877\t首先我們都非常感謝黃仁勳執行長他的喜愛夜市讓臺灣的美食揚名世界那我們會繼續把我們的夜市做得乾淨漂亮而且衛生營養再就是輝達公司在內湖的總部目前使用的狀況他已經接近相當的這個飽和之中了\n408317\t433350\t那他會尋求各地方但是這個除了他公司的產業的布局選擇之外我們也希望他選擇台灣的任何一個地方我們都能夠提供最好的公共服務基礎設施的服務那但是這樣世界的大廠要選擇在哪裡他現在還沒有做明確的規定明示底下我們現在只能是等待他做好更多的地方的選擇跟調查\n434813\t450337\t當然但是本席剛剛第二個問題就是說我們現在中科二期擴大現在沒有說現在已經拿到用水同意函用電同意函跟用地同意函已經進入到土地變更的這個期程在之前呢\n451077\t474652\t經濟部是一直都非常支持目前需要農業部儘速地把變更土地核定下來我們就會跟上台積電明年要設廠的期程這一點可不可以拜託院長督促農業部儘速地來審查我們的土地變更案呢?初步計畫審查通過現在是取得用地的階段\n476713\t497098\t用地已經同意了,我們已經拿到了臺堂的用地同意函。臺堂的部分沒有問題,現在是私人土地,那邊有一個高爾夫球場。我們沒有高爾夫球場,你弄錯了。中科二期在湖尾。我們全部都已經送到農業部,要等待農業部審查,所以希望農業部可以儘速審查。\n506480\t527699\t各位報告,就是有關於相關的這個專案,如果說整個院的專案合定了以後,農地的變更是一個程序,我們一定會配合。是,拜託部長可以盡速的來審查完成,因為這不只對雲林縣很重要,對台灣未來的發展也很重要,因為中科二期擴大雖然只有32.8公頃,但是它連結,\n531923\t559740\t這個寶中土庫東勢整個台塘的農場1600公頃放眼未來50年假設AI產業跟半導體要繼續深耕在臺灣的話它上下有整合有充沛的土地包括我們雲林縣有湖山水庫包括海水淡化廠包括我們有吉祺蘭河縣的這些水我們有充沛的用水用電包括我們有充沛的這個太陽能光電跟再生能源等等\n560140\t560180\t﹚張嘉郡\n586072\t588593\t經濟部也是一樣,當然行政院長整合以後我們一定是全力支持。\n608327\t616916\t當然AI產業是我們重大的產業發展的方向。對於AI產業的發展,院長認為我們目前最大的挑戰是什麼?\n621674\t643428\t應體的設施跟軟體的加強之外應該是要跟世界各個進步的國家跟廠商都合作但是最重要還是要培育我們足夠的人才是人才是一個很大的需求那當然用電上面我是說全國的用電上面也是一個很大的問題前幾天我在經濟委員會已經問過了部長\n645649\t666669\t就是說AI的伺服器耗電量是傳統伺服器的3至20倍在美國CHART GPT每天要消耗56萬度的電相當於我們臺灣夏季用電每天4萬戶的這個用電院長你覺得我們有辦法負荷得起嗎?\n667618\t682018\t國部長幾次談過臺電對現在用電的評估到2030前我們還是手上握有相當的餘裕但是要針對高科技的發展現在政府更必須積極的去拓展更多的多元的能\n682318\t682398\t﹚張嘉郡\n700453\t727608\t是。當然在生能源、綠能這些本席都非常非常的支持。我覺得這是一個全世界的趨勢。但是院長有考過考慮過以核養綠嗎?有沒有考慮再把核三或者是核一、核二把它重啟呢?就是核三因為核三今年就要除役了。那可能會有一個6至7%的這個用電缺口。院長怎麼看這個用電缺口?\n729912\t758827\t我希望透過這個時間也向委員說明河山廠一號機今年7月二號機明年都會除役。對,二號機明年5月17。現在現在我是說假設即使要研議的話我們要經過很長的安全檢查的程序。是。汰換箱裡面檢查出後的可能的一些機組的設備零件。所以我們在3年半到5年當中河山廠的一號機二號機是不可能發電的。\n759907\t779850\t所以5年後的問題他能不能發電還是個問題但5年後的狀況不是我們今天面對今天問題可以解決的這一點我也要提醒這個院長啊就是說其實我們的核能這個發電機我們的使用年限只有歐洲跟這個美國的一半\n780450\t780490\t﹚張嘉郡\n808780\t810702\t我只跟你們報告40年前我們設核電廠的時候就規定了它的年限就是這個樣子\n822625\t838418\t那個是政府跟人民的信賴保護原則現在我們要研議也要照核管法的規定五年前提出研議的準備那現在已經過了那個時間了就是希望說假設院長有這樣子的想法的話我相信不管是藍綠\n840760\t857435\t拜都會大力的支持只要院長願意我覺得修法的問題反而是次要反而是我們國家現在面臨的挑戰我們要怎麼樣一起去因應這一點也希望院長可以記在心裡因為這個國家最有力\n858095\t884819\t希望對國家最有利的這個方式我們可以回歸理性專業的這樣子的討論這一點也拜託院長記在心上那我想部長他是從產業來的他也一定會去做一個專業的評估這一點就拜託院長跟部長好好的思考一下因為本席真的不希望說我們台灣的這個競爭力就錯失在我們的這個用電供應不足\n885359\t903030\t部長常常跟我們說安全穩定供電是我們共同關注的我們一樣要把這個事情做好讓部長說明一下報告委員現在這樣就是說這個我們撇開這個法的問題來講的話現在那個核二核三他確實\n904266\t924188\t你把它降載你一定要先停檢查檢查完了以後可以用才有辦法開啟不能用有危險它是不能用因為安全是我們第一個考量那我跟委員報告就是說我們考慮之前就已經考慮這樣一個現象所以我們到2030年\n925649\t950767\t所以是有考慮要重啟核能的,所以部長你現在是在告訴本席說其實你心中是有重啟核能的備案是嗎?我們什麼事情都可以考量,事先就可以考量,但是以目前我們是沒有辦法在2030年就是說在這個5年內是沒有辦法使用這個核能,如果它可以使用我們也沒有辦法使用。\n951363\t966905\t這一點大家我們可以再好好來討論希望可以找出好的辦法因為這個缺電的問題其實是影響不只是產業也影響民生而且是下至每一個人民\n967426\t967626\t﹚張嘉郡\n993277\t993657\t﹚張嘉郡﹚\n1008314\t1008354\t國土計劃法\n1027611\t1045817\t但是呢,院長目前2025年國土計劃法就要上路了。雲林是受到影響最大的一個縣市之一。請問院長知不知道國土計劃法裡面預計全國農地的總量是多少公頃嗎?120萬。但是你知道雲林縣被劃為農地有多少嗎?8.9萬公頃。\n1057774\t1082719\t是將近全國最高是全國化第一名的縣市而且雲林縣農一農二的土地合計8萬8千多公頃面積真的是超乎如果說以人平均這個農地責任額來說我們是臺北市的638倍您覺得這合理嗎?\n1083632\t1103859\t所以我們說雲林縣一直是我們心中的農業大縣所以它的農地也多各方面的條件就是提供臺灣人民很多的…我們的確是農業大縣但我們也想朝農工商高科技並進的城市努力啊我們不想要說我們的農民變成世代農奴而且假設說種田\n1105299\t1111981\t所以我們希望台灣均衡發展像剛剛委員所提到的在雲林那個科技園區的發展就是未來雲林再轉型但是雲林的土地當作農業使用它一定有它的傳統未來還是一定維持一定的比例的土地但是轉型的過程當中需要更多的協助\n1133146\t1160220\t所以院長本席也想要提出就是說希望這個國土計劃法可以暫緩實施因為目前來說系部規劃不只是雲林縣全台灣很多縣市都有疑慮所以希望說可以把系部都討論完善之後再來實施因為目前可能是我們雲林縣人比較善良盡量按照這個國土署的標準\n1160560\t1160600\t﹚張嘉郡\n1181701\t1184645\t我跟委員報告齁,您剛才講的是一個錯誤的訊息喔,因為...你不要再說是我有誤解,來\n1201344\t1225405\t這個部分是在各縣市國土審議委員會的時候,我們都...我們沒有誤解,我覺得是你行政有偏差。院長你同意他這樣說嗎?報告委員,在農業發展地區啊,我們依照他的國土計畫的內容...屏東也是啊,屏東也是一個農業發展地區啊。各個縣市應該都是標準一致啊,不會有特定讀後來的縣市。就是這個公文來說,就是院長,\n1226666\t1247896\t包括部長他本身都說會尊重地方政府劃分的這個權限但是針對我們要劃設農惡的部分才1500公頃這回函裡面說因為沒有通過審查會議所以無法作為劃設的依據不准我們將交流到附近的這個區域劃成農惡而且這些審查依據是農業部提供給內政部的\n1249477\t1260962\t那這些就叫做尊重地方畫色的權限嗎?不能理解的是這是在細部規劃都沒有明確之前呢為什麼要著急推動呢?可不可以緩一緩呢?\n1261601\t1264144\t國土計劃法的實施對於農民的權益還有農地的變更的部分的完全沒有改變。所以說核保的農地的保障,核保農地的。\n1280464\t1281325\t我現在要求的就是說標準\n1300583\t1301123\t我跟委員報告\n1323656\t1345692\t因為現在目前是縣市政府主導做規劃的那縣市政府召開的國土審議委員會我們都會去參加而且會表我只希望說一句就是說不可能那麼巧吧不可能那麼巧屏東所有的私人土地都剛好符合農惡的標準吧報告委員你現在所說的屏東縣的部分是24年前的法律所以呢我希望說部長不要再讓我誤解院長你知道目前有幾個縣市上繳這個區分圖嗎\n1352077\t1374669\t目前就我們所知道大概只有四個縣市政府是有困擾的,所以是只有三個,目前只有三個繳交區分圖,期限是6月30以前,為什麼大家都不繳?因為明年就要實施了全國只有三個縣市繳,院長可不可以延後實施呢?有沒有考慮要延後實施呢?\n1375089\t1375889\t基本上呢我不是不理解說內政部長也很努力\n1392114\t1392294\t謝謝委員：張嘉郡\n1408354\t1431895\t在審慎的研議你緩一緩就算你緩一年緩兩年我們再把它討論得更周延一點對於行政機關其實才是一勞永逸你不會說實施了之後你有問題一堆所以這一點我真的是要特別也要拜託院長拜託部長可以體諒說民眾就算他知道\n1432295\t1433076\t我跟委員報告,就是針對\n1449755\t1451317\t到底哪裡不會變呢?是不是可以邀請兩位部長到我們雲林縣來跟我們的農民做說明呢?因為你現在在這裡跟我說不會變\n1464813\t1467716\t跟農民的理解是完全有落差的。\n1489136\t1494241\t我希望委員可以告訴我們實際例子上對農民的權益受損的是哪一些地方?我的時間有限,我是不是可以邀請\n1511596\t1520102\t院長你可以指示兩位部長到雲林來說明會嗎?我們可以把所有的村里長啊,所有的這個農會啊,所有的這個農民代表都邀請來好好的對他們說明清證這裡嗎?好,好,那我們謝謝。那本期還要再提一個有關於農業權的概念喔。\n1533812\t1550704\t就是說在這個國際上已經行之有年而且是廣泛實施的一個制度化的概念這是源自於英國發展權轉移的一個概念Transfer Development Rights在美國馬里蘭州甚至紐澤西州都有類似的制度\n1551064\t1576596\t那簡單來說就是說某些縣市必須背負更多的農地責任額那就必須要給予相對性的一個補償以兼顧農地所有權人的權益這才是發展農業的這個長久之計那在巴黎協定當中以開發國家對發展中國家做的氣候補償也是類似的概念不曉得院長有沒有聽過這樣子的一個概念\n1577761\t1599362\t農業部已經實施一段時間的對地的綠色補助就是朝這個方向這個理念在進行就是部長想的跟我們所提的這個農業權的概念是有一點點不一樣所以這一點本席也希望說目前我們是有提出一個方案就是每公頃40萬的這樣的補貼但是細部的部分\n1602645\t1603406\t跟委員報告一下。\n1625820\t1639811\t國土計劃法是讓全國的土地有效合理的去運用,所有的劃分全國各縣市標準一次,我們不會讀後哪裡。再來就是它如果真的有需要5年還是可以再檢討的。\n1640572\t1661800\t﹚議員\n1664701\t1690513\t對,可以看出院長想要傳達出行政團隊對於民主體制民主原則是非常尊重的這是我們共同追求的目標沒錯,但本席想要請教的就是財政收支劃分法了如果民主的反義詞是極權呢那我們現行的才化法就是一個極權的才化法為什麼這麼說呢因為我們上一次修法呢就是25年前\n1691493\t1693114\t中央的想法是財源一定要平均分配到各地方去。\n1720052\t1721073\t有人有錢嗎?可以做事情。\n1743871\t1749699\t所以非直轄市的問題非常嚴重所以我們要開始來規劃財政收支劃分化\n1754608\t1774275\t是,所以呢其實當初的賴慶德市長跟賴慶德行政院長他是非常體恤民情的我相信他現在擔任總統也是一樣的當時您是擔任行政院秘書長您應該也很清楚他就是苦民所苦的這樣子的心他也是支持地方自治的是不是?\n1774935\t1800405\t所以當時沒有辦法繼續走,就是因為垂直分配水平分配的問題。但是即使在那個之後,中央對地方的各項補助,包括長照,包括全災,包括共同分配款。所以你還是在講一個極權概念嘛,就是說中央要去補助,為什麼不直接劃分給地方呢?因為地方自治就是檢驗民主政治是否真正落實的重要基準啊。對於中央極權的這個概念,為什麼要把這個\n1804366\t1806268\t謝謝張嘉郡委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告委員會上午的質詢到此為止,我們下午2點30分繼續開會。\n","txt":"院長我想請卓院長再請卓院長備選卓院長好這次我們的AI行動內閣禁用了很多實務界的專業人士那各界也都很期待我們的內閣團隊是一個很接地氣的內閣那院長對我們的內閣有什麼樣的期許呢?\n謝謝委員對我們的肯定。當然你所說的我們有來自產業界有來自學術界也有原來在陳建仁院長時代留下來的幾位很優秀的部會首長我希望新舊之間盡快的融合我們跟人民展現的就是我們要用行動積極行動跟創新的理念將它放在我們對每一項所以我們說我們會到\n發現問題的第一線解決問題的第一線也提出正確方法的第一線我們會努力讓自己在這個工作上做好自己應該有的責任本席也對院長所帶領的內閣團隊充滿了期待希望可以排除藍綠之間的爭議做一些扶國立民真正對台灣好的政策那我知道院長很少提到家庭不曉得院長當阿公了沒有\n我只是有老人卡而已。\n有一個趨勢要讓院長知道從2016開始我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如從這個臺灣的生育率有每況愈下從2020年開始我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如死的狀況每年以一萬這樣子的人口數下降這樣子急劇的下降那可以說是少子化變成一個國安問題為什麼年輕人不敢生院長知道嗎\n有一些是社會環境的變遷,有一些是經濟的因素,還有很多就是生下來之後他的教養問題,國家還要持續的給他更多的協助。沒錯,院長講到重點,其實就是教養問題,就是經濟問題,\n那現在行政院要推動托育政策2.0版但很奇怪的是少子化明明是越來越嚴重但是很多爸爸媽媽在替小朋友抽公幼還是抽不到不曉得院長有沒有朋友跟你反應過說欸怎麼辦抽不到欸怎麼樣都抽不到公幼有沒有\n欸過去蠻嚴重那現在這個情形稍稍有舒緩但是政府的各項的措施包括公托準公托的這個設施還要繼續的強化精進沒錯就是目前就讀私立幼兒園的學生數是38.5萬佔比67.6%那讀公幼的\n當然我們會持續的\n在各地方徵定這個相關的公共化的這個幼兒中心讓大家需要的爸爸媽媽跟小朋友都能夠有一個更好的學習環境是這個我們都共同的期待那在公幼銜接上需求之前本席建議院長是不是可以考慮先提高育兒津貼跟托育補助因為目前現行的育兒津貼而言第一胎每個月只有五千塊\n﹚張嘉郡﹚張嘉郡﹚\n的這個補助來做修正來修正這個補助那當然這個物價指數大幅提高超過警戒值的時候希望我們行政院可以有所因應\n拜託院長特別關心\n財政衡量容許的範圍當中盡量鼓勵也盡量照顧。繼續願意來幫助這些有小baby的家庭,然後也鼓勵更多的年輕人願意生小孩。謝謝院長。接下來院長最近最夯的議題就是有關於AI產業的發展。國家的半導體產業跟AI產業的發展是一個關鍵時刻,尤其台積電、輝達等大廠都相繼想要擴廠、設廠。\n﹚張嘉郡\n﹚台湯\n中科二期擴大。\n首先我們都非常感謝黃仁勳執行長他的喜愛夜市讓臺灣的美食揚名世界那我們會繼續把我們的夜市做得乾淨漂亮而且衛生營養再就是輝達公司在內湖的總部目前使用的狀況他已經接近相當的這個飽和之中了\n那他會尋求各地方但是這個除了他公司的產業的布局選擇之外我們也希望他選擇台灣的任何一個地方我們都能夠提供最好的公共服務基礎設施的服務那但是這樣世界的大廠要選擇在哪裡他現在還沒有做明確的規定明示底下我們現在只能是等待他做好更多的地方的選擇跟調查\n當然但是本席剛剛第二個問題就是說我們現在中科二期擴大現在沒有說現在已經拿到用水同意函用電同意函跟用地同意函已經進入到土地變更的這個期程在之前呢\n經濟部是一直都非常支持目前需要農業部儘速地把變更土地核定下來我們就會跟上台積電明年要設廠的期程這一點可不可以拜託院長督促農業部儘速地來審查我們的土地變更案呢?初步計畫審查通過現在是取得用地的階段\n用地已經同意了,我們已經拿到了臺堂的用地同意函。臺堂的部分沒有問題,現在是私人土地,那邊有一個高爾夫球場。我們沒有高爾夫球場,你弄錯了。中科二期在湖尾。我們全部都已經送到農業部,要等待農業部審查,所以希望農業部可以儘速審查。\n各位報告,就是有關於相關的這個專案,如果說整個院的專案合定了以後,農地的變更是一個程序,我們一定會配合。是,拜託部長可以盡速的來審查完成,因為這不只對雲林縣很重要,對台灣未來的發展也很重要,因為中科二期擴大雖然只有32.8公頃,但是它連結,\n這個寶中土庫東勢整個台塘的農場1600公頃放眼未來50年假設AI產業跟半導體要繼續深耕在臺灣的話它上下有整合有充沛的土地包括我們雲林縣有湖山水庫包括海水淡化廠包括我們有吉祺蘭河縣的這些水我們有充沛的用水用電包括我們有充沛的這個太陽能光電跟再生能源等等\n﹚張嘉郡\n經濟部也是一樣,當然行政院長整合以後我們一定是全力支持。\n當然AI產業是我們重大的產業發展的方向。對於AI產業的發展,院長認為我們目前最大的挑戰是什麼?\n應體的設施跟軟體的加強之外應該是要跟世界各個進步的國家跟廠商都合作但是最重要還是要培育我們足夠的人才是人才是一個很大的需求那當然用電上面我是說全國的用電上面也是一個很大的問題前幾天我在經濟委員會已經問過了部長\n就是說AI的伺服器耗電量是傳統伺服器的3至20倍在美國CHART GPT每天要消耗56萬度的電相當於我們臺灣夏季用電每天4萬戶的這個用電院長你覺得我們有辦法負荷得起嗎?\n國部長幾次談過臺電對現在用電的評估到2030前我們還是手上握有相當的餘裕但是要針對高科技的發展現在政府更必須積極的去拓展更多的多元的能\n﹚張嘉郡\n是。當然在生能源、綠能這些本席都非常非常的支持。我覺得這是一個全世界的趨勢。但是院長有考過考慮過以核養綠嗎?有沒有考慮再把核三或者是核一、核二把它重啟呢?就是核三因為核三今年就要除役了。那可能會有一個6至7%的這個用電缺口。院長怎麼看這個用電缺口?\n我希望透過這個時間也向委員說明河山廠一號機今年7月二號機明年都會除役。對,二號機明年5月17。現在現在我是說假設即使要研議的話我們要經過很長的安全檢查的程序。是。汰換箱裡面檢查出後的可能的一些機組的設備零件。所以我們在3年半到5年當中河山廠的一號機二號機是不可能發電的。\n所以5年後的問題他能不能發電還是個問題但5年後的狀況不是我們今天面對今天問題可以解決的這一點我也要提醒這個院長啊就是說其實我們的核能這個發電機我們的使用年限只有歐洲跟這個美國的一半\n﹚張嘉郡\n我只跟你們報告40年前我們設核電廠的時候就規定了它的年限就是這個樣子\n那個是政府跟人民的信賴保護原則現在我們要研議也要照核管法的規定五年前提出研議的準備那現在已經過了那個時間了就是希望說假設院長有這樣子的想法的話我相信不管是藍綠\n拜都會大力的支持只要院長願意我覺得修法的問題反而是次要反而是我們國家現在面臨的挑戰我們要怎麼樣一起去因應這一點也希望院長可以記在心裡因為這個國家最有力\n希望對國家最有利的這個方式我們可以回歸理性專業的這樣子的討論這一點也拜託院長記在心上那我想部長他是從產業來的他也一定會去做一個專業的評估這一點就拜託院長跟部長好好的思考一下因為本席真的不希望說我們台灣的這個競爭力就錯失在我們的這個用電供應不足\n部長常常跟我們說安全穩定供電是我們共同關注的我們一樣要把這個事情做好讓部長說明一下報告委員現在這樣就是說這個我們撇開這個法的問題來講的話現在那個核二核三他確實\n你把它降載你一定要先停檢查檢查完了以後可以用才有辦法開啟不能用有危險它是不能用因為安全是我們第一個考量那我跟委員報告就是說我們考慮之前就已經考慮這樣一個現象所以我們到2030年\n所以是有考慮要重啟核能的,所以部長你現在是在告訴本席說其實你心中是有重啟核能的備案是嗎?我們什麼事情都可以考量,事先就可以考量,但是以目前我們是沒有辦法在2030年就是說在這個5年內是沒有辦法使用這個核能,如果它可以使用我們也沒有辦法使用。\n這一點大家我們可以再好好來討論希望可以找出好的辦法因為這個缺電的問題其實是影響不只是產業也影響民生而且是下至每一個人民\n﹚張嘉郡\n﹚張嘉郡﹚\n國土計劃法\n但是呢,院長目前2025年國土計劃法就要上路了。雲林是受到影響最大的一個縣市之一。請問院長知不知道國土計劃法裡面預計全國農地的總量是多少公頃嗎?120萬。但是你知道雲林縣被劃為農地有多少嗎?8.9萬公頃。\n是將近全國最高是全國化第一名的縣市而且雲林縣農一農二的土地合計8萬8千多公頃面積真的是超乎如果說以人平均這個農地責任額來說我們是臺北市的638倍您覺得這合理嗎?\n所以我們說雲林縣一直是我們心中的農業大縣所以它的農地也多各方面的條件就是提供臺灣人民很多的…我們的確是農業大縣但我們也想朝農工商高科技並進的城市努力啊我們不想要說我們的農民變成世代農奴而且假設說種田\n所以我們希望台灣均衡發展像剛剛委員所提到的在雲林那個科技園區的發展就是未來雲林再轉型但是雲林的土地當作農業使用它一定有它的傳統未來還是一定維持一定的比例的土地但是轉型的過程當中需要更多的協助\n所以院長本席也想要提出就是說希望這個國土計劃法可以暫緩實施因為目前來說系部規劃不只是雲林縣全台灣很多縣市都有疑慮所以希望說可以把系部都討論完善之後再來實施因為目前可能是我們雲林縣人比較善良盡量按照這個國土署的標準\n﹚張嘉郡\n我跟委員報告齁,您剛才講的是一個錯誤的訊息喔,因為...你不要再說是我有誤解,來\n這個部分是在各縣市國土審議委員會的時候,我們都...我們沒有誤解,我覺得是你行政有偏差。院長你同意他這樣說嗎?報告委員,在農業發展地區啊,我們依照他的國土計畫的內容...屏東也是啊,屏東也是一個農業發展地區啊。各個縣市應該都是標準一致啊,不會有特定讀後來的縣市。就是這個公文來說,就是院長,\n包括部長他本身都說會尊重地方政府劃分的這個權限但是針對我們要劃設農惡的部分才1500公頃這回函裡面說因為沒有通過審查會議所以無法作為劃設的依據不准我們將交流到附近的這個區域劃成農惡而且這些審查依據是農業部提供給內政部的\n那這些就叫做尊重地方畫色的權限嗎?不能理解的是這是在細部規劃都沒有明確之前呢為什麼要著急推動呢?可不可以緩一緩呢?\n國土計劃法的實施對於農民的權益還有農地的變更的部分的完全沒有改變。所以說核保的農地的保障,核保農地的。\n我現在要求的就是說標準\n我跟委員報告\n因為現在目前是縣市政府主導做規劃的那縣市政府召開的國土審議委員會我們都會去參加而且會表我只希望說一句就是說不可能那麼巧吧不可能那麼巧屏東所有的私人土地都剛好符合農惡的標準吧報告委員你現在所說的屏東縣的部分是24年前的法律所以呢我希望說部長不要再讓我誤解院長你知道目前有幾個縣市上繳這個區分圖嗎\n目前就我們所知道大概只有四個縣市政府是有困擾的,所以是只有三個,目前只有三個繳交區分圖,期限是6月30以前,為什麼大家都不繳?因為明年就要實施了全國只有三個縣市繳,院長可不可以延後實施呢?有沒有考慮要延後實施呢?\n基本上呢我不是不理解說內政部長也很努力\n謝謝委員：張嘉郡\n在審慎的研議你緩一緩就算你緩一年緩兩年我們再把它討論得更周延一點對於行政機關其實才是一勞永逸你不會說實施了之後你有問題一堆所以這一點我真的是要特別也要拜託院長拜託部長可以體諒說民眾就算他知道\n我跟委員報告,就是針對\n到底哪裡不會變呢?是不是可以邀請兩位部長到我們雲林縣來跟我們的農民做說明呢?因為你現在在這裡跟我說不會變\n跟農民的理解是完全有落差的。\n我希望委員可以告訴我們實際例子上對農民的權益受損的是哪一些地方?我的時間有限,我是不是可以邀請\n院長你可以指示兩位部長到雲林來說明會嗎?我們可以把所有的村里長啊,所有的這個農會啊,所有的這個農民代表都邀請來好好的對他們說明清證這裡嗎?好,好,那我們謝謝。那本期還要再提一個有關於農業權的概念喔。\n就是說在這個國際上已經行之有年而且是廣泛實施的一個制度化的概念這是源自於英國發展權轉移的一個概念Transfer Development Rights在美國馬里蘭州甚至紐澤西州都有類似的制度\n那簡單來說就是說某些縣市必須背負更多的農地責任額那就必須要給予相對性的一個補償以兼顧農地所有權人的權益這才是發展農業的這個長久之計那在巴黎協定當中以開發國家對發展中國家做的氣候補償也是類似的概念不曉得院長有沒有聽過這樣子的一個概念\n農業部已經實施一段時間的對地的綠色補助就是朝這個方向這個理念在進行就是部長想的跟我們所提的這個農業權的概念是有一點點不一樣所以這一點本席也希望說目前我們是有提出一個方案就是每公頃40萬的這樣的補貼但是細部的部分\n跟委員報告一下。\n國土計劃法是讓全國的土地有效合理的去運用,所有的劃分全國各縣市標準一次,我們不會讀後哪裡。再來就是它如果真的有需要5年還是可以再檢討的。\n﹚議員\n對,可以看出院長想要傳達出行政團隊對於民主體制民主原則是非常尊重的這是我們共同追求的目標沒錯,但本席想要請教的就是財政收支劃分法了如果民主的反義詞是極權呢那我們現行的才化法就是一個極權的才化法為什麼這麼說呢因為我們上一次修法呢就是25年前\n中央的想法是財源一定要平均分配到各地方去。\n有人有錢嗎?可以做事情。\n所以非直轄市的問題非常嚴重所以我們要開始來規劃財政收支劃分化\n是,所以呢其實當初的賴慶德市長跟賴慶德行政院長他是非常體恤民情的我相信他現在擔任總統也是一樣的當時您是擔任行政院秘書長您應該也很清楚他就是苦民所苦的這樣子的心他也是支持地方自治的是不是?\n所以當時沒有辦法繼續走,就是因為垂直分配水平分配的問題。但是即使在那個之後,中央對地方的各項補助,包括長照,包括全災,包括共同分配款。所以你還是在講一個極權概念嘛,就是說中央要去補助,為什麼不直接劃分給地方呢?因為地方自治就是檢驗民主政治是否真正落實的重要基準啊。對於中央極權的這個概念,為什麼要把這個\n謝謝張嘉郡委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告委員會上午的質詢到此為止,我們下午2點30分繼續開會。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.018 --> 00:04.480\n院長我想請卓院長再請卓院長備選卓院長好這次我們的AI行動內閣禁用了很多實務界的專業人士那各界也都很期待我們的內閣團隊是一個很接地氣的內閣那院長對我們的內閣有什麼樣的期許呢?\n\n00:24.721 --> 00:46.876\n謝謝委員對我們的肯定。當然你所說的我們有來自產業界有來自學術界也有原來在陳建仁院長時代留下來的幾位很優秀的部會首長我希望新舊之間盡快的融合我們跟人民展現的就是我們要用行動積極行動跟創新的理念將它放在我們對每一項所以我們說我們會到\n\n00:49.397 --> 01:14.315\n發現問題的第一線解決問題的第一線也提出正確方法的第一線我們會努力讓自己在這個工作上做好自己應該有的責任本席也對院長所帶領的內閣團隊充滿了期待希望可以排除藍綠之間的爭議做一些扶國立民真正對台灣好的政策那我知道院長很少提到家庭不曉得院長當阿公了沒有\n\n01:14.975 --> 01:16.058\n我只是有老人卡而已。\n\n01:22.641 --> 01:51.013\n有一個趨勢要讓院長知道從2016開始我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如從這個臺灣的生育率有每況愈下從2020年開始我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如死的狀況每年以一萬這樣子的人口數下降這樣子急劇的下降那可以說是少子化變成一個國安問題為什麼年輕人不敢生院長知道嗎\n\n01:53.538 --> 02:06.576\n有一些是社會環境的變遷,有一些是經濟的因素,還有很多就是生下來之後他的教養問題,國家還要持續的給他更多的協助。沒錯,院長講到重點,其實就是教養問題,就是經濟問題,\n\n02:08.959 --> 02:28.282\n那現在行政院要推動托育政策2.0版但很奇怪的是少子化明明是越來越嚴重但是很多爸爸媽媽在替小朋友抽公幼還是抽不到不曉得院長有沒有朋友跟你反應過說欸怎麼辦抽不到欸怎麼樣都抽不到公幼有沒有\n\n02:29.404 --> 02:44.179\n欸過去蠻嚴重那現在這個情形稍稍有舒緩但是政府的各項的措施包括公托準公托的這個設施還要繼續的強化精進沒錯就是目前就讀私立幼兒園的學生數是38.5萬佔比67.6%那讀公幼的\n\n02:49.364 --> 02:49.604\n當然我們會持續的\n\n03:18.598 --> 03:46.675\n在各地方徵定這個相關的公共化的這個幼兒中心讓大家需要的爸爸媽媽跟小朋友都能夠有一個更好的學習環境是這個我們都共同的期待那在公幼銜接上需求之前本席建議院長是不是可以考慮先提高育兒津貼跟托育補助因為目前現行的育兒津貼而言第一胎每個月只有五千塊\n\n03:47.495 --> 03:47.935\n﹚張嘉郡﹚張嘉郡﹚\n\n04:07.907 --> 04:18.756\n的這個補助來做修正來修正這個補助那當然這個物價指數大幅提高超過警戒值的時候希望我們行政院可以有所因應\n\n04:19.950 --> 04:20.650\n拜託院長特別關心\n\n04:41.076 --> 04:56.524\n財政衡量容許的範圍當中盡量鼓勵也盡量照顧。繼續願意來幫助這些有小baby的家庭,然後也鼓勵更多的年輕人願意生小孩。謝謝院長。接下來院長最近最夯的議題就是有關於AI產業的發展。國家的半導體產業跟AI產業的發展是一個關鍵時刻,尤其台積電、輝達等大廠都相繼想要擴廠、設廠。\n\n05:09.690 --> 05:09.810\n﹚張嘉郡\n\n05:31.095 --> 05:31.115\n﹚台湯\n\n05:59.059 --> 05:59.299\n中科二期擴大。\n\n06:26.280 --> 06:47.877\n首先我們都非常感謝黃仁勳執行長他的喜愛夜市讓臺灣的美食揚名世界那我們會繼續把我們的夜市做得乾淨漂亮而且衛生營養再就是輝達公司在內湖的總部目前使用的狀況他已經接近相當的這個飽和之中了\n\n06:48.317 --> 07:13.350\n那他會尋求各地方但是這個除了他公司的產業的布局選擇之外我們也希望他選擇台灣的任何一個地方我們都能夠提供最好的公共服務基礎設施的服務那但是這樣世界的大廠要選擇在哪裡他現在還沒有做明確的規定明示底下我們現在只能是等待他做好更多的地方的選擇跟調查\n\n07:14.813 --> 07:30.337\n當然但是本席剛剛第二個問題就是說我們現在中科二期擴大現在沒有說現在已經拿到用水同意函用電同意函跟用地同意函已經進入到土地變更的這個期程在之前呢\n\n07:31.077 --> 07:54.652\n經濟部是一直都非常支持目前需要農業部儘速地把變更土地核定下來我們就會跟上台積電明年要設廠的期程這一點可不可以拜託院長督促農業部儘速地來審查我們的土地變更案呢?初步計畫審查通過現在是取得用地的階段\n\n07:56.713 --> 08:17.098\n用地已經同意了,我們已經拿到了臺堂的用地同意函。臺堂的部分沒有問題,現在是私人土地,那邊有一個高爾夫球場。我們沒有高爾夫球場,你弄錯了。中科二期在湖尾。我們全部都已經送到農業部,要等待農業部審查,所以希望農業部可以儘速審查。\n\n08:26.480 --> 08:47.699\n各位報告,就是有關於相關的這個專案,如果說整個院的專案合定了以後,農地的變更是一個程序,我們一定會配合。是,拜託部長可以盡速的來審查完成,因為這不只對雲林縣很重要,對台灣未來的發展也很重要,因為中科二期擴大雖然只有32.8公頃,但是它連結,\n\n08:51.923 --> 09:19.740\n這個寶中土庫東勢整個台塘的農場1600公頃放眼未來50年假設AI產業跟半導體要繼續深耕在臺灣的話它上下有整合有充沛的土地包括我們雲林縣有湖山水庫包括海水淡化廠包括我們有吉祺蘭河縣的這些水我們有充沛的用水用電包括我們有充沛的這個太陽能光電跟再生能源等等\n\n09:20.140 --> 09:20.180\n﹚張嘉郡\n\n09:46.072 --> 09:48.593\n經濟部也是一樣,當然行政院長整合以後我們一定是全力支持。\n\n10:08.327 --> 10:16.916\n當然AI產業是我們重大的產業發展的方向。對於AI產業的發展,院長認為我們目前最大的挑戰是什麼?\n\n10:21.674 --> 10:43.428\n應體的設施跟軟體的加強之外應該是要跟世界各個進步的國家跟廠商都合作但是最重要還是要培育我們足夠的人才是人才是一個很大的需求那當然用電上面我是說全國的用電上面也是一個很大的問題前幾天我在經濟委員會已經問過了部長\n\n10:45.649 --> 11:06.669\n就是說AI的伺服器耗電量是傳統伺服器的3至20倍在美國CHARTGPT每天要消耗56萬度的電相當於我們臺灣夏季用電每天4萬戶的這個用電院長你覺得我們有辦法負荷得起嗎?\n\n11:07.618 --> 11:22.018\n國部長幾次談過臺電對現在用電的評估到2030前我們還是手上握有相當的餘裕但是要針對高科技的發展現在政府更必須積極的去拓展更多的多元的能\n\n11:22.318 --> 11:22.398\n﹚張嘉郡\n\n11:40.453 --> 12:07.608\n是。當然在生能源、綠能這些本席都非常非常的支持。我覺得這是一個全世界的趨勢。但是院長有考過考慮過以核養綠嗎?有沒有考慮再把核三或者是核一、核二把它重啟呢?就是核三因為核三今年就要除役了。那可能會有一個6至7%的這個用電缺口。院長怎麼看這個用電缺口?\n\n12:09.912 --> 12:38.827\n我希望透過這個時間也向委員說明河山廠一號機今年7月二號機明年都會除役。對,二號機明年5月17。現在現在我是說假設即使要研議的話我們要經過很長的安全檢查的程序。是。汰換箱裡面檢查出後的可能的一些機組的設備零件。所以我們在3年半到5年當中河山廠的一號機二號機是不可能發電的。\n\n12:39.907 --> 12:59.850\n所以5年後的問題他能不能發電還是個問題但5年後的狀況不是我們今天面對今天問題可以解決的這一點我也要提醒這個院長啊就是說其實我們的核能這個發電機我們的使用年限只有歐洲跟這個美國的一半\n\n13:00.450 --> 13:00.490\n﹚張嘉郡\n\n13:28.780 --> 13:30.702\n我只跟你們報告40年前我們設核電廠的時候就規定了它的年限就是這個樣子\n\n13:42.625 --> 13:58.418\n那個是政府跟人民的信賴保護原則現在我們要研議也要照核管法的規定五年前提出研議的準備那現在已經過了那個時間了就是希望說假設院長有這樣子的想法的話我相信不管是藍綠\n\n14:00.760 --> 14:17.435\n拜都會大力的支持只要院長願意我覺得修法的問題反而是次要反而是我們國家現在面臨的挑戰我們要怎麼樣一起去因應這一點也希望院長可以記在心裡因為這個國家最有力\n\n14:18.095 --> 14:44.819\n希望對國家最有利的這個方式我們可以回歸理性專業的這樣子的討論這一點也拜託院長記在心上那我想部長他是從產業來的他也一定會去做一個專業的評估這一點就拜託院長跟部長好好的思考一下因為本席真的不希望說我們台灣的這個競爭力就錯失在我們的這個用電供應不足\n\n14:45.359 --> 15:03.030\n部長常常跟我們說安全穩定供電是我們共同關注的我們一樣要把這個事情做好讓部長說明一下報告委員現在這樣就是說這個我們撇開這個法的問題來講的話現在那個核二核三他確實\n\n15:04.266 --> 15:24.188\n你把它降載你一定要先停檢查檢查完了以後可以用才有辦法開啟不能用有危險它是不能用因為安全是我們第一個考量那我跟委員報告就是說我們考慮之前就已經考慮這樣一個現象所以我們到2030年\n\n15:25.649 --> 15:50.767\n所以是有考慮要重啟核能的,所以部長你現在是在告訴本席說其實你心中是有重啟核能的備案是嗎?我們什麼事情都可以考量,事先就可以考量,但是以目前我們是沒有辦法在2030年就是說在這個5年內是沒有辦法使用這個核能,如果它可以使用我們也沒有辦法使用。\n\n15:51.363 --> 16:06.905\n這一點大家我們可以再好好來討論希望可以找出好的辦法因為這個缺電的問題其實是影響不只是產業也影響民生而且是下至每一個人民\n\n16:07.426 --> 16:07.626\n﹚張嘉郡\n\n16:33.277 --> 16:33.657\n﹚張嘉郡﹚\n\n16:48.314 --> 16:48.354\n國土計劃法\n\n17:07.611 --> 17:25.817\n但是呢,院長目前2025年國土計劃法就要上路了。雲林是受到影響最大的一個縣市之一。請問院長知不知道國土計劃法裡面預計全國農地的總量是多少公頃嗎?120萬。但是你知道雲林縣被劃為農地有多少嗎?8.9萬公頃。\n\n17:37.774 --> 18:02.719\n是將近全國最高是全國化第一名的縣市而且雲林縣農一農二的土地合計8萬8千多公頃面積真的是超乎如果說以人平均這個農地責任額來說我們是臺北市的638倍您覺得這合理嗎?\n\n18:03.632 --> 18:23.859\n所以我們說雲林縣一直是我們心中的農業大縣所以它的農地也多各方面的條件就是提供臺灣人民很多的…我們的確是農業大縣但我們也想朝農工商高科技並進的城市努力啊我們不想要說我們的農民變成世代農奴而且假設說種田\n\n18:25.299 --> 18:31.981\n所以我們希望台灣均衡發展像剛剛委員所提到的在雲林那個科技園區的發展就是未來雲林再轉型但是雲林的土地當作農業使用它一定有它的傳統未來還是一定維持一定的比例的土地但是轉型的過程當中需要更多的協助\n\n18:53.146 --> 19:20.220\n所以院長本席也想要提出就是說希望這個國土計劃法可以暫緩實施因為目前來說系部規劃不只是雲林縣全台灣很多縣市都有疑慮所以希望說可以把系部都討論完善之後再來實施因為目前可能是我們雲林縣人比較善良盡量按照這個國土署的標準\n\n19:20.560 --> 19:20.600\n﹚張嘉郡\n\n19:41.701 --> 19:44.645\n我跟委員報告齁,您剛才講的是一個錯誤的訊息喔,因為...你不要再說是我有誤解,來\n\n20:01.344 --> 20:25.405\n這個部分是在各縣市國土審議委員會的時候,我們都...我們沒有誤解,我覺得是你行政有偏差。院長你同意他這樣說嗎?報告委員,在農業發展地區啊,我們依照他的國土計畫的內容...屏東也是啊,屏東也是一個農業發展地區啊。各個縣市應該都是標準一致啊,不會有特定讀後來的縣市。就是這個公文來說,就是院長,\n\n20:26.666 --> 20:47.896\n包括部長他本身都說會尊重地方政府劃分的這個權限但是針對我們要劃設農惡的部分才1500公頃這回函裡面說因為沒有通過審查會議所以無法作為劃設的依據不准我們將交流到附近的這個區域劃成農惡而且這些審查依據是農業部提供給內政部的\n\n20:49.477 --> 21:00.962\n那這些就叫做尊重地方畫色的權限嗎?不能理解的是這是在細部規劃都沒有明確之前呢為什麼要著急推動呢?可不可以緩一緩呢?\n\n21:01.601 --> 21:04.144\n國土計劃法的實施對於農民的權益還有農地的變更的部分的完全沒有改變。所以說核保的農地的保障,核保農地的。\n\n21:20.464 --> 21:21.325\n我現在要求的就是說標準\n\n21:40.583 --> 21:41.123\n我跟委員報告\n\n22:03.656 --> 22:25.692\n因為現在目前是縣市政府主導做規劃的那縣市政府召開的國土審議委員會我們都會去參加而且會表我只希望說一句就是說不可能那麼巧吧不可能那麼巧屏東所有的私人土地都剛好符合農惡的標準吧報告委員你現在所說的屏東縣的部分是24年前的法律所以呢我希望說部長不要再讓我誤解院長你知道目前有幾個縣市上繳這個區分圖嗎\n\n22:32.077 --> 22:54.669\n目前就我們所知道大概只有四個縣市政府是有困擾的,所以是只有三個,目前只有三個繳交區分圖,期限是6月30以前,為什麼大家都不繳?因為明年就要實施了全國只有三個縣市繳,院長可不可以延後實施呢?有沒有考慮要延後實施呢?\n\n22:55.089 --> 22:55.889\n基本上呢我不是不理解說內政部長也很努力\n\n23:12.114 --> 23:12.294\n謝謝委員：張嘉郡\n\n23:28.354 --> 23:51.895\n在審慎的研議你緩一緩就算你緩一年緩兩年我們再把它討論得更周延一點對於行政機關其實才是一勞永逸你不會說實施了之後你有問題一堆所以這一點我真的是要特別也要拜託院長拜託部長可以體諒說民眾就算他知道\n\n23:52.295 --> 23:53.076\n我跟委員報告,就是針對\n\n24:09.755 --> 24:11.317\n到底哪裡不會變呢?是不是可以邀請兩位部長到我們雲林縣來跟我們的農民做說明呢?因為你現在在這裡跟我說不會變\n\n24:24.813 --> 24:27.716\n跟農民的理解是完全有落差的。\n\n24:49.136 --> 24:54.241\n我希望委員可以告訴我們實際例子上對農民的權益受損的是哪一些地方?我的時間有限,我是不是可以邀請\n\n25:11.596 --> 25:20.102\n院長你可以指示兩位部長到雲林來說明會嗎?我們可以把所有的村里長啊,所有的這個農會啊,所有的這個農民代表都邀請來好好的對他們說明清證這裡嗎?好,好,那我們謝謝。那本期還要再提一個有關於農業權的概念喔。\n\n25:33.812 --> 25:50.704\n就是說在這個國際上已經行之有年而且是廣泛實施的一個制度化的概念這是源自於英國發展權轉移的一個概念TransferDevelopmentRights在美國馬里蘭州甚至紐澤西州都有類似的制度\n\n25:51.064 --> 26:16.596\n那簡單來說就是說某些縣市必須背負更多的農地責任額那就必須要給予相對性的一個補償以兼顧農地所有權人的權益這才是發展農業的這個長久之計那在巴黎協定當中以開發國家對發展中國家做的氣候補償也是類似的概念不曉得院長有沒有聽過這樣子的一個概念\n\n26:17.761 --> 26:39.362\n農業部已經實施一段時間的對地的綠色補助就是朝這個方向這個理念在進行就是部長想的跟我們所提的這個農業權的概念是有一點點不一樣所以這一點本席也希望說目前我們是有提出一個方案就是每公頃40萬的這樣的補貼但是細部的部分\n\n26:42.645 --> 26:43.406\n跟委員報告一下。\n\n27:05.820 --> 27:19.811\n國土計劃法是讓全國的土地有效合理的去運用,所有的劃分全國各縣市標準一次,我們不會讀後哪裡。再來就是它如果真的有需要5年還是可以再檢討的。\n\n27:44.701 --> 28:10.513\n對,可以看出院長想要傳達出行政團隊對於民主體制民主原則是非常尊重的這是我們共同追求的目標沒錯,但本席想要請教的就是財政收支劃分法了如果民主的反義詞是極權呢那我們現行的才化法就是一個極權的才化法為什麼這麼說呢因為我們上一次修法呢就是25年前\n\n28:11.493 --> 28:13.114\n中央的想法是財源一定要平均分配到各地方去。\n\n28:40.052 --> 28:41.073\n有人有錢嗎?可以做事情。\n\n29:03.871 --> 29:09.699\n所以非直轄市的問題非常嚴重所以我們要開始來規劃財政收支劃分化\n\n29:14.608 --> 29:34.275\n是,所以呢其實當初的賴慶德市長跟賴慶德行政院長他是非常體恤民情的我相信他現在擔任總統也是一樣的當時您是擔任行政院秘書長您應該也很清楚他就是苦民所苦的這樣子的心他也是支持地方自治的是不是?\n\n29:34.935 --> 30:00.405\n所以當時沒有辦法繼續走,就是因為垂直分配水平分配的問題。但是即使在那個之後,中央對地方的各項補助,包括長照,包括全災,包括共同分配款。所以你還是在講一個極權概念嘛,就是說中央要去補助,為什麼不直接劃分給地方呢?因為地方自治就是檢驗民主政治是否真正落實的重要基準啊。對於中央極權的這個概念,為什麼要把這個\n\n30:04.366 --> 30:06.268\n謝謝張嘉郡委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告委員會上午的質詢到此為止,我們下午2點30分繼續開會。\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.018,"end":4.48,"text":"院長我想請卓院長再請卓院長備選卓院長好這次我們的AI行動內閣禁用了很多實務界的專業人士那各界也都很期待我們的內閣團隊是一個很接地氣的內閣那院長對我們的內閣有什麼樣的期許呢?"},{"start":24.721,"end":46.876,"text":"謝謝委員對我們的肯定。當然你所說的我們有來自產業界有來自學術界也有原來在陳建仁院長時代留下來的幾位很優秀的部會首長我希望新舊之間盡快的融合我們跟人民展現的就是我們要用行動積極行動跟創新的理念將它放在我們對每一項所以我們說我們會到"},{"start":49.397,"end":74.315,"text":"發現問題的第一線解決問題的第一線也提出正確方法的第一線我們會努力讓自己在這個工作上做好自己應該有的責任本席也對院長所帶領的內閣團隊充滿了期待希望可以排除藍綠之間的爭議做一些扶國立民真正對台灣好的政策那我知道院長很少提到家庭不曉得院長當阿公了沒有"},{"start":74.975,"end":76.058,"text":"我只是有老人卡而已。"},{"start":82.641,"end":111.013,"text":"有一個趨勢要讓院長知道從2016開始我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如從這個臺灣的生育率有每況愈下從2020年開始我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如死的狀況每年以一萬這樣子的人口數下降這樣子急劇的下降那可以說是少子化變成一個國安問題為什麼年輕人不敢生院長知道嗎"},{"start":113.538,"end":126.576,"text":"有一些是社會環境的變遷,有一些是經濟的因素,還有很多就是生下來之後他的教養問題,國家還要持續的給他更多的協助。沒錯,院長講到重點,其實就是教養問題,就是經濟問題,"},{"start":128.959,"end":148.282,"text":"那現在行政院要推動托育政策2.0版但很奇怪的是少子化明明是越來越嚴重但是很多爸爸媽媽在替小朋友抽公幼還是抽不到不曉得院長有沒有朋友跟你反應過說欸怎麼辦抽不到欸怎麼樣都抽不到公幼有沒有"},{"start":149.404,"end":164.179,"text":"欸過去蠻嚴重那現在這個情形稍稍有舒緩但是政府的各項的措施包括公托準公托的這個設施還要繼續的強化精進沒錯就是目前就讀私立幼兒園的學生數是38.5萬佔比67.6%那讀公幼的"},{"start":169.364,"end":169.604,"text":"當然我們會持續的"},{"start":198.598,"end":226.675,"text":"在各地方徵定這個相關的公共化的這個幼兒中心讓大家需要的爸爸媽媽跟小朋友都能夠有一個更好的學習環境是這個我們都共同的期待那在公幼銜接上需求之前本席建議院長是不是可以考慮先提高育兒津貼跟托育補助因為目前現行的育兒津貼而言第一胎每個月只有五千塊"},{"start":227.495,"end":227.935,"text":"﹚張嘉郡﹚張嘉郡﹚"},{"start":247.907,"end":258.756,"text":"的這個補助來做修正來修正這個補助那當然這個物價指數大幅提高超過警戒值的時候希望我們行政院可以有所因應"},{"start":259.95,"end":260.65,"text":"拜託院長特別關心"},{"start":281.076,"end":296.524,"text":"財政衡量容許的範圍當中盡量鼓勵也盡量照顧。繼續願意來幫助這些有小baby的家庭,然後也鼓勵更多的年輕人願意生小孩。謝謝院長。接下來院長最近最夯的議題就是有關於AI產業的發展。國家的半導體產業跟AI產業的發展是一個關鍵時刻,尤其台積電、輝達等大廠都相繼想要擴廠、設廠。"},{"start":309.69,"end":309.81,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":331.095,"end":331.115,"text":"﹚台湯"},{"start":359.059,"end":359.299,"text":"中科二期擴大。"},{"start":386.28,"end":407.877,"text":"首先我們都非常感謝黃仁勳執行長他的喜愛夜市讓臺灣的美食揚名世界那我們會繼續把我們的夜市做得乾淨漂亮而且衛生營養再就是輝達公司在內湖的總部目前使用的狀況他已經接近相當的這個飽和之中了"},{"start":408.317,"end":433.35,"text":"那他會尋求各地方但是這個除了他公司的產業的布局選擇之外我們也希望他選擇台灣的任何一個地方我們都能夠提供最好的公共服務基礎設施的服務那但是這樣世界的大廠要選擇在哪裡他現在還沒有做明確的規定明示底下我們現在只能是等待他做好更多的地方的選擇跟調查"},{"start":434.813,"end":450.337,"text":"當然但是本席剛剛第二個問題就是說我們現在中科二期擴大現在沒有說現在已經拿到用水同意函用電同意函跟用地同意函已經進入到土地變更的這個期程在之前呢"},{"start":451.077,"end":474.652,"text":"經濟部是一直都非常支持目前需要農業部儘速地把變更土地核定下來我們就會跟上台積電明年要設廠的期程這一點可不可以拜託院長督促農業部儘速地來審查我們的土地變更案呢?初步計畫審查通過現在是取得用地的階段"},{"start":476.713,"end":497.098,"text":"用地已經同意了,我們已經拿到了臺堂的用地同意函。臺堂的部分沒有問題,現在是私人土地,那邊有一個高爾夫球場。我們沒有高爾夫球場,你弄錯了。中科二期在湖尾。我們全部都已經送到農業部,要等待農業部審查,所以希望農業部可以儘速審查。"},{"start":506.48,"end":527.699,"text":"各位報告,就是有關於相關的這個專案,如果說整個院的專案合定了以後,農地的變更是一個程序,我們一定會配合。是,拜託部長可以盡速的來審查完成,因為這不只對雲林縣很重要,對台灣未來的發展也很重要,因為中科二期擴大雖然只有32.8公頃,但是它連結,"},{"start":531.923,"end":559.74,"text":"這個寶中土庫東勢整個台塘的農場1600公頃放眼未來50年假設AI產業跟半導體要繼續深耕在臺灣的話它上下有整合有充沛的土地包括我們雲林縣有湖山水庫包括海水淡化廠包括我們有吉祺蘭河縣的這些水我們有充沛的用水用電包括我們有充沛的這個太陽能光電跟再生能源等等"},{"start":560.14,"end":560.18,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":586.072,"end":588.593,"text":"經濟部也是一樣,當然行政院長整合以後我們一定是全力支持。"},{"start":608.327,"end":616.916,"text":"當然AI產業是我們重大的產業發展的方向。對於AI產業的發展,院長認為我們目前最大的挑戰是什麼?"},{"start":621.674,"end":643.428,"text":"應體的設施跟軟體的加強之外應該是要跟世界各個進步的國家跟廠商都合作但是最重要還是要培育我們足夠的人才是人才是一個很大的需求那當然用電上面我是說全國的用電上面也是一個很大的問題前幾天我在經濟委員會已經問過了部長"},{"start":645.649,"end":666.669,"text":"就是說AI的伺服器耗電量是傳統伺服器的3至20倍在美國CHART GPT每天要消耗56萬度的電相當於我們臺灣夏季用電每天4萬戶的這個用電院長你覺得我們有辦法負荷得起嗎?"},{"start":667.618,"end":682.018,"text":"國部長幾次談過臺電對現在用電的評估到2030前我們還是手上握有相當的餘裕但是要針對高科技的發展現在政府更必須積極的去拓展更多的多元的能"},{"start":682.318,"end":682.398,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":700.453,"end":727.608,"text":"是。當然在生能源、綠能這些本席都非常非常的支持。我覺得這是一個全世界的趨勢。但是院長有考過考慮過以核養綠嗎?有沒有考慮再把核三或者是核一、核二把它重啟呢?就是核三因為核三今年就要除役了。那可能會有一個6至7%的這個用電缺口。院長怎麼看這個用電缺口?"},{"start":729.912,"end":758.827,"text":"我希望透過這個時間也向委員說明河山廠一號機今年7月二號機明年都會除役。對,二號機明年5月17。現在現在我是說假設即使要研議的話我們要經過很長的安全檢查的程序。是。汰換箱裡面檢查出後的可能的一些機組的設備零件。所以我們在3年半到5年當中河山廠的一號機二號機是不可能發電的。"},{"start":759.907,"end":779.85,"text":"所以5年後的問題他能不能發電還是個問題但5年後的狀況不是我們今天面對今天問題可以解決的這一點我也要提醒這個院長啊就是說其實我們的核能這個發電機我們的使用年限只有歐洲跟這個美國的一半"},{"start":780.45,"end":780.49,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":808.78,"end":810.702,"text":"我只跟你們報告40年前我們設核電廠的時候就規定了它的年限就是這個樣子"},{"start":822.625,"end":838.418,"text":"那個是政府跟人民的信賴保護原則現在我們要研議也要照核管法的規定五年前提出研議的準備那現在已經過了那個時間了就是希望說假設院長有這樣子的想法的話我相信不管是藍綠"},{"start":840.76,"end":857.435,"text":"拜都會大力的支持只要院長願意我覺得修法的問題反而是次要反而是我們國家現在面臨的挑戰我們要怎麼樣一起去因應這一點也希望院長可以記在心裡因為這個國家最有力"},{"start":858.095,"end":884.819,"text":"希望對國家最有利的這個方式我們可以回歸理性專業的這樣子的討論這一點也拜託院長記在心上那我想部長他是從產業來的他也一定會去做一個專業的評估這一點就拜託院長跟部長好好的思考一下因為本席真的不希望說我們台灣的這個競爭力就錯失在我們的這個用電供應不足"},{"start":885.359,"end":903.03,"text":"部長常常跟我們說安全穩定供電是我們共同關注的我們一樣要把這個事情做好讓部長說明一下報告委員現在這樣就是說這個我們撇開這個法的問題來講的話現在那個核二核三他確實"},{"start":904.266,"end":924.188,"text":"你把它降載你一定要先停檢查檢查完了以後可以用才有辦法開啟不能用有危險它是不能用因為安全是我們第一個考量那我跟委員報告就是說我們考慮之前就已經考慮這樣一個現象所以我們到2030年"},{"start":925.649,"end":950.767,"text":"所以是有考慮要重啟核能的,所以部長你現在是在告訴本席說其實你心中是有重啟核能的備案是嗎?我們什麼事情都可以考量,事先就可以考量,但是以目前我們是沒有辦法在2030年就是說在這個5年內是沒有辦法使用這個核能,如果它可以使用我們也沒有辦法使用。"},{"start":951.363,"end":966.905,"text":"這一點大家我們可以再好好來討論希望可以找出好的辦法因為這個缺電的問題其實是影響不只是產業也影響民生而且是下至每一個人民"},{"start":967.426,"end":967.626,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":993.277,"end":993.657,"text":"﹚張嘉郡﹚"},{"start":1008.314,"end":1008.354,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":1027.611,"end":1045.817,"text":"但是呢,院長目前2025年國土計劃法就要上路了。雲林是受到影響最大的一個縣市之一。請問院長知不知道國土計劃法裡面預計全國農地的總量是多少公頃嗎?120萬。但是你知道雲林縣被劃為農地有多少嗎?8.9萬公頃。"},{"start":1057.774,"end":1082.719,"text":"是將近全國最高是全國化第一名的縣市而且雲林縣農一農二的土地合計8萬8千多公頃面積真的是超乎如果說以人平均這個農地責任額來說我們是臺北市的638倍您覺得這合理嗎?"},{"start":1083.632,"end":1103.859,"text":"所以我們說雲林縣一直是我們心中的農業大縣所以它的農地也多各方面的條件就是提供臺灣人民很多的…我們的確是農業大縣但我們也想朝農工商高科技並進的城市努力啊我們不想要說我們的農民變成世代農奴而且假設說種田"},{"start":1105.299,"end":1111.981,"text":"所以我們希望台灣均衡發展像剛剛委員所提到的在雲林那個科技園區的發展就是未來雲林再轉型但是雲林的土地當作農業使用它一定有它的傳統未來還是一定維持一定的比例的土地但是轉型的過程當中需要更多的協助"},{"start":1133.146,"end":1160.22,"text":"所以院長本席也想要提出就是說希望這個國土計劃法可以暫緩實施因為目前來說系部規劃不只是雲林縣全台灣很多縣市都有疑慮所以希望說可以把系部都討論完善之後再來實施因為目前可能是我們雲林縣人比較善良盡量按照這個國土署的標準"},{"start":1160.56,"end":1160.6,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":1181.701,"end":1184.645,"text":"我跟委員報告齁,您剛才講的是一個錯誤的訊息喔,因為...你不要再說是我有誤解,來"},{"start":1201.344,"end":1225.405,"text":"這個部分是在各縣市國土審議委員會的時候,我們都...我們沒有誤解,我覺得是你行政有偏差。院長你同意他這樣說嗎?報告委員,在農業發展地區啊,我們依照他的國土計畫的內容...屏東也是啊,屏東也是一個農業發展地區啊。各個縣市應該都是標準一致啊,不會有特定讀後來的縣市。就是這個公文來說,就是院長,"},{"start":1226.666,"end":1247.896,"text":"包括部長他本身都說會尊重地方政府劃分的這個權限但是針對我們要劃設農惡的部分才1500公頃這回函裡面說因為沒有通過審查會議所以無法作為劃設的依據不准我們將交流到附近的這個區域劃成農惡而且這些審查依據是農業部提供給內政部的"},{"start":1249.477,"end":1260.962,"text":"那這些就叫做尊重地方畫色的權限嗎?不能理解的是這是在細部規劃都沒有明確之前呢為什麼要著急推動呢?可不可以緩一緩呢?"},{"start":1261.601,"end":1264.144,"text":"國土計劃法的實施對於農民的權益還有農地的變更的部分的完全沒有改變。所以說核保的農地的保障,核保農地的。"},{"start":1280.464,"end":1281.325,"text":"我現在要求的就是說標準"},{"start":1300.583,"end":1301.123,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":1323.656,"end":1345.692,"text":"因為現在目前是縣市政府主導做規劃的那縣市政府召開的國土審議委員會我們都會去參加而且會表我只希望說一句就是說不可能那麼巧吧不可能那麼巧屏東所有的私人土地都剛好符合農惡的標準吧報告委員你現在所說的屏東縣的部分是24年前的法律所以呢我希望說部長不要再讓我誤解院長你知道目前有幾個縣市上繳這個區分圖嗎"},{"start":1352.077,"end":1374.669,"text":"目前就我們所知道大概只有四個縣市政府是有困擾的,所以是只有三個,目前只有三個繳交區分圖,期限是6月30以前,為什麼大家都不繳?因為明年就要實施了全國只有三個縣市繳,院長可不可以延後實施呢?有沒有考慮要延後實施呢?"},{"start":1375.089,"end":1375.889,"text":"基本上呢我不是不理解說內政部長也很努力"},{"start":1392.114,"end":1392.294,"text":"謝謝委員：張嘉郡"},{"start":1408.354,"end":1431.895,"text":"在審慎的研議你緩一緩就算你緩一年緩兩年我們再把它討論得更周延一點對於行政機關其實才是一勞永逸你不會說實施了之後你有問題一堆所以這一點我真的是要特別也要拜託院長拜託部長可以體諒說民眾就算他知道"},{"start":1432.295,"end":1433.076,"text":"我跟委員報告,就是針對"},{"start":1449.755,"end":1451.317,"text":"到底哪裡不會變呢?是不是可以邀請兩位部長到我們雲林縣來跟我們的農民做說明呢?因為你現在在這裡跟我說不會變"},{"start":1464.813,"end":1467.716,"text":"跟農民的理解是完全有落差的。"},{"start":1489.136,"end":1494.241,"text":"我希望委員可以告訴我們實際例子上對農民的權益受損的是哪一些地方?我的時間有限,我是不是可以邀請"},{"start":1511.596,"end":1520.102,"text":"院長你可以指示兩位部長到雲林來說明會嗎?我們可以把所有的村里長啊,所有的這個農會啊,所有的這個農民代表都邀請來好好的對他們說明清證這裡嗎?好,好,那我們謝謝。那本期還要再提一個有關於農業權的概念喔。"},{"start":1533.812,"end":1550.704,"text":"就是說在這個國際上已經行之有年而且是廣泛實施的一個制度化的概念這是源自於英國發展權轉移的一個概念Transfer Development Rights在美國馬里蘭州甚至紐澤西州都有類似的制度"},{"start":1551.064,"end":1576.596,"text":"那簡單來說就是說某些縣市必須背負更多的農地責任額那就必須要給予相對性的一個補償以兼顧農地所有權人的權益這才是發展農業的這個長久之計那在巴黎協定當中以開發國家對發展中國家做的氣候補償也是類似的概念不曉得院長有沒有聽過這樣子的一個概念"},{"start":1577.761,"end":1599.362,"text":"農業部已經實施一段時間的對地的綠色補助就是朝這個方向這個理念在進行就是部長想的跟我們所提的這個農業權的概念是有一點點不一樣所以這一點本席也希望說目前我們是有提出一個方案就是每公頃40萬的這樣的補貼但是細部的部分"},{"start":1602.645,"end":1603.406,"text":"跟委員報告一下。"},{"start":1625.82,"end":1639.811,"text":"國土計劃法是讓全國的土地有效合理的去運用,所有的劃分全國各縣市標準一次,我們不會讀後哪裡。再來就是它如果真的有需要5年還是可以再檢討的。"},{"start":1640.572,"end":1661.8,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":1664.701,"end":1690.513,"text":"對,可以看出院長想要傳達出行政團隊對於民主體制民主原則是非常尊重的這是我們共同追求的目標沒錯,但本席想要請教的就是財政收支劃分法了如果民主的反義詞是極權呢那我們現行的才化法就是一個極權的才化法為什麼這麼說呢因為我們上一次修法呢就是25年前"},{"start":1691.493,"end":1693.114,"text":"中央的想法是財源一定要平均分配到各地方去。"},{"start":1720.052,"end":1721.073,"text":"有人有錢嗎?可以做事情。"},{"start":1743.871,"end":1749.699,"text":"所以非直轄市的問題非常嚴重所以我們要開始來規劃財政收支劃分化"},{"start":1754.608,"end":1774.275,"text":"是,所以呢其實當初的賴慶德市長跟賴慶德行政院長他是非常體恤民情的我相信他現在擔任總統也是一樣的當時您是擔任行政院秘書長您應該也很清楚他就是苦民所苦的這樣子的心他也是支持地方自治的是不是?"},{"start":1774.935,"end":1800.405,"text":"所以當時沒有辦法繼續走,就是因為垂直分配水平分配的問題。但是即使在那個之後,中央對地方的各項補助,包括長照,包括全災,包括共同分配款。所以你還是在講一個極權概念嘛,就是說中央要去補助,為什麼不直接劃分給地方呢?因為地方自治就是檢驗民主政治是否真正落實的重要基準啊。對於中央極權的這個概念,為什麼要把這個"},{"start":1804.366,"end":1806.268,"text":"謝謝張嘉郡委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告委員會上午的質詢到此為止,我們下午2點30分繼續開會。"}]}}}}