{"id":154046,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154046","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c0185d0aaa11f34e3acd65b353bd3059915546051f742c4eddec539c7ac6a666915c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"15:19:40 - 15:36:20","影片長度":"00:16:40","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T15:19:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T15:36:20+08:00","duration":1000,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":206,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（15時19分）謝謝主席，我們請行政院卓院長，還有法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：再請卓院長、鄭部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：院長好。現在行政院已經針對國會擴權法案提請覆議了，然後立法院會在下個禮拜五進行表決，但是我可以預期，雖然早上院長說你滿樂觀的，但我沒有這麼樂觀，因為我認為現在在藍白還是非常執迷不悟，而且暫時沒有悔改可能的情況下，下個禮拜的表決結果還是非常有可能被否決，我的認為是這樣子啦！","其實近一個月我接到非常多民眾的陳情，他們都表達出極度的擔憂跟焦慮，他們在焦慮什麼呢？因為最近我把所有我們可行的方案都告訴了民眾，也說我們一定會窮盡一切可能並努力到最後一刻，守護我們的憲政體制，守護我們民主的權益，但是民眾還是很擔心，他們覺得現在我們好像是手無寸鐵，該怎麼辦呢？尤其是接下來，即便我們民進黨團提了釋憲，但是在憲法法庭宣判之前，或是大法官核可暫時處分之前，是不是會有一個落地的空窗期呢？我不知道行政院現在針對這件事情，有沒有做好最壞的打算？什麼叫做最壞的打算呢？","我先講一下，其實這段時間以來，已經有上百位法律學者以及300位以上的律師都站出來說，這部法律就是侵害人民的基本權益；也有非常多的外媒已經直接警示，甚至直接說這部法律就是臺灣立法院的過度擴權，而且也說這部法案的內容是親中的，是在削弱總統的權力；甚至也有日媒直接說，國民黨就是中國的特洛伊木馬，當然這個都是外媒的解讀。","我要問的是，假設下禮拜真的覆議失敗了，然後我們提覆議了，我不知道行政院這邊有沒有打算也提釋憲？因為其實行政院也是可以提釋憲的，站在行政權的角度，你們持什麼理由，用你們憲政機關的高度來論述這一部擴權法案現在對於行政體系的衝擊呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我想委員跟我都很清楚目前國會的生態，我早上說我持比較樂觀的態度，是因為我必須這樣，才能夠在這個禮拜花一些時間去處理其他重要的公務，我如果每天很悲觀的在這個情境裡面，大概很多事情都是無法進行的……"],["黃委員捷：吃不下飯、睡不著覺……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我必須要抱持這樣的心情，但是我也相信，如果有經過公開、合理而且非常理性的討論，這個案子不一定完全是不可能的，因為我相信委員都還是有正義感在身的，他們還是會發揮出來的，所以是不是有可能，大家共同來努力。當然身為一個憲政機關，我們依照憲政秩序的設計提出覆議，這個是我們的責任，但除了憲政機關這個角色之外，我覺得因為這個職權行使法並不是單純就立法委員內部的職權行使，它牽扯到人民、法人、部隊以及政府官員……"],["黃委員捷：沒錯！"],["卓院長榮泰：只要牽扯到人民權益有可能受損，行政機關一定要有責任來保護人民的權益，所以我們在這個立場上，也必須、也可以提出這樣的覆議。但是覆議的結果如果不是朝我樂觀想像當中的話，未來呈現另外一種結果出現，那憲政秩序上、憲政設計上，還是有再下去的救濟方式，我想我們還是跟委員剛剛所說的，我們會窮盡一切的可能來維護憲政機關，維護院際的分立，維護人民的權益。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝院長，在這邊幫院長加油一下啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，一起加油！"],["黃委員捷：這個對於行政體系的衝擊真的非常的大喔！其實這段時間民眾也一直在跟我說，他真的好擔心喔！怎麼辦，接下來人民會不會被調查啊！因為這一部法律擴權下去，真的是有可能調查人民的，包括叫人民提供資料還不得拒絕；甚至他要請律師，還要經過主席同意；然後他沒有提供資料，或是被認為是虛偽陳述，都有可能被立法院罰錢，甚至是按次處罰；刑法的部分就更不用說了，關於藐視國會罪，我不知道現在所有的官員坐在上面有沒有都在瑟瑟發抖，擔心自己說錯話就犯了藐視國會罪，就要被關或是有可能被處一年以下的有期徒刑，甚至是二十萬的罰金。當然，大家都很擔心被這部法律影響，可是起草這部法律的委員說，百分之九十九點九的人都不會受到影響，請大家不用過度恐慌，也說沒有犯法就沒事了，請問院長，你同意這樣的說法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我必須接住每一個人。"],["黃委員捷：是的，我必須說在人權保障上，並不是用百分比來看待的，對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員捷：只要有一個人受到侵害就是侵害，這就是我們作為一個人權國家最基本的保障，每一個人都應該要被接住，怎麼會說99.9%的人沒有受影響就沒事呢？再來請教法務部長，您是檢察官出身的，對嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員捷：部長，請教一下，這部三讀通過的法律讓立委可以調閱司法或監察機關的文件副本，請問您怎麼看？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要參酌釋字585解釋來做處理。依據釋字585號解釋，當然立法院有調卷的權力，但也必須要跟立法院立法委員的固有職權有重大關聯，在這個限制下才能調閱，這在585號解釋已經講得非常清楚。至於這一次立法院職權行使法應該有逸脫原來585號……"],["黃委員捷：請問偵查中的案件可以被調閱嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵查中的案件是不能被調閱的。"],["黃委員捷：所以這部法律對檢警體系會有什麼樣的影響？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想應該會有影響，因為在偵查中的屬偵查不公開。依據刑事訴訟法規定，這部分是不能公開的，即使監察院來調卷，我們也都必須依照這個規定辦理。"],["黃委員捷：好，這就是我希望法務部接下來能堅守的立場。我講一句比較難聽的，現在國民黨有一些委員涉入一些案件，例如詐欺、圖利、洩密、收受回饋、內線交易等等刑事案件。假設國會擴權法案下去，他們跟檢警說他們要調這些案件的進度，他們要去看這些偵辦中的案件資料，這會不會影響檢調的偵辦進度？在你們司法獨立審判這些案件的過程當中，會不會因輿論或串供或對偵查上造成影響？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不樂見這種情形的發生。"],["黃委員捷：所以我必須要說，這整部法律就是一個垃圾法案！它就是一個拼裝車，一團混亂，裡面沒有規範到任何立委對自己自律的要求，沒有任何利益迴避的規定，對你們在執行上真的會有非常大的問題。謝謝，請部長先回座，院長先留在這邊。","接著國會擴權法案後，我要講一下，現在中國對臺灣的各式各樣威脅其實是非常大的！我把近期、從1月到現在的各種威脅列出來，像軍機繞臺、軍事演習、軍事威脅、各種介選、網路攻擊，還有片面更改M 503航線，甚至中國海警強登金門觀光船，還發射火箭飛越我國上空，然後還派武官在捷克跟蹤我們蕭美琴副總統的種種行為都在發生。謝謝主委直接上來了。","之所以要延續國會擴權法案來談，是因為擴權法案也有可能變成瓦解臺灣國防的破口，不知道國防部跟陸委會主委如何看待這部法律？有沒有評估過這部法律下去，對你們會不會有相關影響？例如現在要做潛艦國造，他們用國會調查權來調查弊案，然後請國防部提供潛艦聲紋資料，他們必須提供這些重大的機密資料，如果沒有提供就開罰，這種情況會不會發生呢？不知道你們有沒有在心裡先把最壞的打算想過一遍？沒關係，先不用回答。我必須要講，這個法案下去確實有可能造成這樣的問題。","再來要請教院長，其實現在立法院裡躺了非常多的錢坑法案，就我所知、就你所知，光是花東三法就要2兆，還有許多委員提出了財劃法的修正，有可能要吃掉我們中央5,777億，我不知道你有沒有想過，接下來如果照這個版本通過財劃法的修正，將近6,000億減少之後，你們會受到什麼影響？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是中央政府在財政方面對地方的補助以及一些天災地變的因應，還有一些其他長期的或是每年都發生的或是單次發生的緊急事件，我們就失去了靈活運用的能力。其實5,777億之外的9,000億，包括統籌分配稅款、一般補助款跟計畫補助款，每年將近9,000億，那也是已經補助給地方為優先的，如果再把這個變成齊頭式的、水平式的分配的話，中央會失去這個能力，很多事情就沒有辦法在短時間內為地方做更多的努力。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，尤其我是高雄的立委，高雄過去如果沒有中央這樣的靈活運用以及注重地方衡平性、注重城鄉發展這樣的精神的話，其實我們地方還是非常可憐的，很多事情都做不了，大眾運輸也做不了，從中央育兒津貼、租屋補助到社會住宅都做不了！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員捷：所以中央統籌分配還是非常重要的，我希望你們要堅守這個立場，接下來各縣市大家一起來協商的時候，一定要注重城鄉發展跟地方的衡平，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的、對的。"],["黃委員捷：這個拜託院長務必要堅守。我剛剛會提到現在有這麼多的錢坑法案，是因為中央的財政紀律要嚴守，所有的預算這邊開一點，那邊就要收一點，整個大水庫一定要非常嚴格的把關，是這樣對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，我們不希望這些將中央財政削弱的很多法案同時出現在國會裡面，同時讓它變成一個立法來拘束中央，如果這樣形成的話，就如剛剛所說的，中央對財政的應變能力就完全喪失了。齊頭式平等又沒有辦法要求每個縣市做同樣均衡臺灣共同一致目標的努力，大家的想法會不一樣，在這樣的過程中，我想對均衡發展這個工作來講，會產生很大很大的困難。"],["黃委員捷：好，我必須要說，現在立法院躺了非常多的財政惡法，為什麼說這些是惡法呢？因為這些法案都一再的說要提高預算，幫這邊加一點，幫那邊加一點，但完全沒有考慮財政的評估，是完全毀壞財政紀律的。例如昨天審查的反年改法案，就是好不容易我們把年金改了之後，我們省了大概2,800億，如果照他們的版本下去，這2,800億等於完全沒了嘛！再加上財劃法的近6,000億、花東三法的2兆，還有他們現在也要修老人福利法，65歲以上健保一律免費，大概也要花掉400億，這樣隨便林林總總加下來，這邊開一點，那邊開一點的，我們的大水庫、整個中央的財政馬上就垮掉了！我不知道我們中央對於現在立法院躺了這麼多的財政惡法有什麼因應？請院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，而且過去改革的很多法案是為了國家的永續發展跟生存，也為了兼顧軍人長用久任的原則，如果今天改回去，就變成走回頭路，過去改革的精神完全被破壞了，國家財政回復到改革之前的困難，這也不是大家所樂見的，所以我們會逐一去檢視現在法案中埋下對中央政府財政設計這樣的法案，我們認為它也違反相關法律，我們必須在大院或委員會裡面據理力爭、充分說明，希望大家還是用中央地方充分合作的角度來看國家的財政，這樣會比較健全。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個一定要拜託院裡所有的每個部會都一定要堅守這個精神，因為其實看得出來立法院有一群人真的正在掏空國家，不管是財政還是媒體上面，還是所有的防線，都不斷的在架空你們，我認為這個對於國家的影響非常的嚴重。","最後一點時間我要講一下，這個也是最近送進來我發現跟國家非常有關係的，就是兩岸監督條例，過去我們在太陽花時所主張的就是在進行兩岸政治協議之前都要有非常嚴格的把關機制，所以我們也在兩岸條例做了修法，在民進黨時期修正第五條之三，可是現在民眾黨開了一個後門，就是把經濟跟政治協議分開，甚至是降低門檻，我不知道行政部門有沒有做相關的因應？陸委會有沒有看到這個版本？你們現在對於兩岸條例第五條之三是不是會堅守目前的法案立場？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們在2018年通過兩岸條例第五條之三，就是堅持我們的民主憲政體制，不能因為政治議題來更改我們民主憲政體制跟主權地位，這個我們會堅守下去，請委員放心。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個要拜託，因為以目前民眾黨的版本修正下去，就是在放寬兩岸監督條例的底線，甚至是把四分之三出席、四分之三同意的門檻都降低了，無疑就是在因應中共現在跟我們之間協議的底線，我認為是非常嚴重的，拜託陸委會針對這件事情一定要做好把關。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，一定會的，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第40號廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","黃捷","廖先翔","陳冠廷","許宇甄","吳宗憲"],"page_start":29,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002","1135701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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\"start\": 989.804, \"end\": 990.124, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"廖\", \"start\": 990.124, \"end\": 990.284, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 990.284, \"end\": 990.504, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"祥\", \"start\": 990.504, \"end\": 990.624, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 990.624, \"end\": 990.644, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,408 --> 00:00:13,758\n好,謝謝主席。我們請行政院卓院長還有法務部政部長。再請卓院長、政部長備選。好,院長好。\n\n2\n00:00:25,197 --> 00:00:51,808\n現在我們行政院已經把這個國會擴成法案已經提請復議了嘛然後我們立法院會在下個禮拜五來進行表決但是我可以預期啦雖然早上院長說你蠻樂觀的但我沒有這麼樂觀因為我認為在現在藍白還是非常執迷不悟而且暫時沒有悔改可能的情況下下個禮拜的表決結果還是非常有可能被否決那我的認為是這樣子啦所以\n\n3\n00:00:52,248 --> 00:01:09,205\n其實近一個月我接到非常多民眾的陳情,他們都表達極度的擔憂跟焦慮。他們在焦慮什麼呢?他們因為其實我最近把所有我們可行的方案都告訴民眾了說我們一定會窮盡一切可能努力到最後一刻守護我們的憲政體制,守護我們民主的權益。\n\n4\n00:01:12,608 --> 00:01:34,920\n但是民眾還是很擔心啊他們覺得好像我們現在手無寸鐵怎麼辦呢尤其是接下來即便我們民進黨團體的釋憲但是在憲法法庭宣判之前或是大法官核可這個暫時處分之前是不是會有一個落地的空窗期呢那我不知道說行政院現在針對這件事情有沒有做好最壞的打算\n\n5\n00:01:35,800 --> 00:02:01,196\n什麼叫做最壞的打算呢?我先講一下說其實這段時間以來已經是上百位的法律學者以及三百位以上的律師都站出來說這部法律就是侵害人民的基本權益然後也有非常多的外媒已經直接警示甚至直接說這部法律就是台灣立法院的過度擴權而且也說這部法案的內容是親中而且削弱總統的權利的\n\n6\n00:02:02,617 --> 00:02:31,699\n甚至也有日媒直接說國民黨就是中國的特洛伊木馬那當然這個都是外媒的解讀那我是要問啦假設啦下禮拜真的復議失敗了然後我們提復議了我不知道行政院這邊有沒有打算也來提釋憲因為其實行政院是可以提釋憲的嘛那站在行政權的角度你們有什麼理由以及用你們憲政機關的高度來論述這一部擴權法案現在對於行政體系的衝擊呢\n\n7\n00:02:33,501 --> 00:02:59,154\n謝謝委員我想委員跟我都很清楚目前國會的生態我早上說我只是比較樂觀是因為我必須這樣我才能夠在這個禮拜花一些時間去處理其他重要的公務我如果每天很悲觀的在這個情境裡面那大概很多事情是無法進行所以我必須要抱持這樣的心情但是我也相信如果有經過公開合理而且非常理性的討論\n\n8\n00:03:00,894 --> 00:03:21,599\n這個案子不一定完全是不可能的,因為我相信委員都還是有正義感在身的,他們還是會發揮出來的,那是不是可能大家共同來努力。當然作為一個憲政機關,我們依照憲政秩序的設計提出復議,這個是我們的責任。但除了憲政機關的這個角色之外,我覺得因為這個職權行使法,\n\n9\n00:03:22,459 --> 00:03:47,621\n並不是單純就立法委員內部的質詢行使。他牽扯到人民﹑法人﹑部隊以及政府官員。沒錯。要牽扯到人民權益有可能受損。行政機關一定要有責任來保護人民的這個權益。所以我們在這個立場上也必須也可以提出這樣的復議。但是復議的結果如果不是朝我樂觀的想像當中的話那未來\n\n10\n00:03:48,522 --> 00:04:03,122\n他呈現另外一種結果出現。那憲政秩序上、憲政的設計上還是有再下去的這個救濟的方式。那我想我們還是跟委員剛剛所說的我們窮盡一切的可能來維護憲政機關、維護願績的分立、維護人民的權益。\n\n11\n00:04:06,562 --> 00:04:21,664\n好謝謝院長在這邊幫院長來加油一下啦這個對於行政體系的衝擊真的非常的大喔因為其實這段時間因為民眾也一直在跟我說他真的好擔心喔怎麼辦接下來人民會不會被調查啊因為他其實在這一部法律\n\n12\n00:04:22,506 --> 00:04:38,684\n擴傳下去真的是有可能調查人民的包括叫人民提供資料還不得拒絕甚至是他要請律師還要經過主席同意然後你沒有提供資料或是被認為是虛偽陳述都有可能被立法院要罰你錢啊甚至是按次要處罰\n\n13\n00:04:39,665 --> 00:05:02,097\n那這個刑法就更不用說了這個藐視國會罪我不知道現在的所有的官員坐在上面有沒有都瑟瑟發抖擔心自己說錯話就犯了這個藐視國會罪就要被關有可能被處一年以下的有期徒刑甚至是20萬的罰金那當然啦其實大家都很擔心被這部法律影響可是呢\n\n14\n00:05:02,797 --> 00:05:08,040\n我必須接觸每一個人是的我必須要說在人權的保障上並不是用百分比來看待對嗎?是的\n\n15\n00:05:29,631 --> 00:05:58,961\n只要有一個人受到侵害就是侵害這就是我們作為一個人權國家最基本的保障嘛每一個人都應該要被接住啊怎麼會說99.9%的人沒有受影響就沒事呢好那再來請教一下我們法務部長喔您是檢察官出身對嗎是好部長請教一下這部三讀通過的法律裡面讓立委可以來調閱司法或是監察機關的文件的副本請問您怎麼看\n\n16\n00:06:00,595 --> 00:06:28,082\n這部分還是要依據那個參佐那個釋字585號解釋的來做一個處理他那個585號解釋當然這個立法院有調卷的一個一個權利但是也必須要跟他立法院立法委員的固有的職權有重大的關聯這個這個限制才能夠做一個調卷那我想這個是在585號解釋已經講得非常的一個清楚了那至於立法院這一次的\n\n17\n00:06:28,764 --> 00:06:57,630\n此前的一個刑事法這部分應該有依託請問偵查中的案件可以被調閱嗎?偵查中的案件是不能夠被調閱的那所以這部法律下去對檢警體系會有什麼樣的影響?我想應該是會有影響因為他那個有些只有在在偵查中的這部分是偵查不公開就是依刑訴訟法這部分是不能公開的那我想這部分我們是\n\n18\n00:06:59,371 --> 00:07:03,301\n我想這個其實監察院的條件我們都是就是必須要依照這個一個規定的。\n\n19\n00:07:04,824 --> 00:07:32,663\n好這個就是我希望法務部接下來要堅守的立場因為我講一句比較難聽的啦因為其實我們現在國民黨啊有一些委員他們涉入一些案件例如說詐欺、土利、洩密、收受回饋、內線交易等等這些形式案件假設啦這個國會擴權法案下去他們跟我們現在監禁說他們要調這些案件的進度然後他們要去看這些偵辦中的案件的資料\n\n20\n00:07:33,524 --> 00:07:50,241\n那會不會影響我們檢調的偵辦的進度?會不會影響這一些案件在作為你們司法獨立審判的這個過程當中的一些輿論或者是串供或者是任何偵查上面的影響?\n\n21\n00:07:55,356 --> 00:08:14,781\n所以啦我必須要說現在這整部法律就是一台非常這我就一直說這是一個垃圾法案啦他就是一個拼裝車然後一團混亂因為裡面沒有規範到任何對立委自己的自律的要求沒有任何利益迴避的這些規定執行上對你們來說真的會有非常大的問題啊\n\n22\n00:08:16,261 --> 00:08:33,290\n好謝謝我們先請那個部長先回座那我們院長先留在這邊那接下來我請教一下因為接著這個國會擴權法案我講一下說現在其實中國對台灣的各種各式各樣的威脅是非常大的這個我我把近期其實從1月到現在\n\n23\n00:08:35,091 --> 00:08:58,340\n的這種威脅列出來喔像是現在軍事繞台軍機繞台軍事演習軍事威脅然後各種的借選跟網路攻擊還有片面的更改M503的航線甚至是中國的海警強登金門的觀光船還有發射火箭飛越我國上空等等然後甚至是還派了武官在捷克來跟蹤我們蕭美琴副總統\n\n24\n00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:16,093\n的這種行為都有在發生。好謝謝我們主委直接上來了。那我想要講一下就是說這個延續這個國會擴權法案來談是因為這個擴權法案裡面也有可能變成是瓦解台灣國防的破口。\n\n25\n00:09:16,753 --> 00:09:30,185\n我不知道我們國防部跟我們陸委會主委如何看待這部法律有沒有去評估過這部法律下去對你們會不會有相關的影響就例如說我們現在要做潛艦國造好了\n\n26\n00:09:32,034 --> 00:09:59,715\n那這個他們用國會調查權來調查弊案然後說國防部請你們提供淺見深聞的資料那我們這些重大的機密資料你必須要提供如果你們沒有提供就給你們開罰這種情況會不會發生呢我不知道你們有沒有在心裡先把最壞的打算想過一遍沒關係先不用回答那這個我必須要講說現在的這個法案下去確實是也有可能造成這樣的問題\n\n27\n00:10:01,016 --> 00:10:21,885\n那再來我要請教的是其實還是我們院長啦因為其實現在我們立法院裡面躺了非常多的乾坤法案就我所知就你所知這個光是花東的三法兩兆的花東三法還有已經許多委員提到的才化法的修正有可能要吃掉我們中央5777億\n\n28\n00:10:25,427 --> 00:10:34,057\n我不知道你有沒有想過接下來如果照這個版本通過財化法將近6千億少了之後你們會受到什麼影響?\n\n29\n00:10:35,117 --> 00:10:52,616\n就是中央政府在財政的對地方補助以及一些天災地變的因應跟一些其他的長期的或是或者是每年都發生的或是單次發生的一些緊急事件那我們在失去了靈活運用的能力其實5700之外的9000億包括\n\n30\n00:10:57,519 --> 00:11:16,432\n統籌分配稅款一般補助款跟計畫性補助款每年將近9000億那也是已經補助給地方為優先的所以如果再把這個變成一個齊頭式的水平式的分配的話那中央會失去這個能力很多的事情就沒有辦法在短時間內為地方做更多的努力\n\n31\n00:11:17,213 --> 00:11:42,652\n沒錯,尤其是我是高雄的立委啦,我們高雄過去也是如果沒有中央這樣子可以靈活運用以及注重地方橫平性注重城鄉發展這樣的精神的話其實我們地方還是非常可憐的喔,很多事情都做不了,大眾運輸也做不了然後這種從中央什麼育兒津貼租屋補助到社會住宅都做不了\n\n32\n00:11:43,673 --> 00:12:06,951\n所以中央統籌分配還是非常重要的我希望你們要堅守這個立場接下來在不管各縣市大家一起來協商的時候一定要注重城鄉發展跟地方的衡平好不好是的這個拜託要請院長堅守喔那我剛剛會提到這個現在有這麼多的乾坑法案是因為我們中央的財政紀律要嚴守\n\n33\n00:12:08,012 --> 00:12:15,735\n是的,我們不希望這些將中央財政削弱的這些很多的法案同時出現在國會裡面,那同時讓它變成一個立法來拘束中央。如果這樣的形成的話,剛剛說的中央這財政應變的能力就完全喪失了。\n\n34\n00:12:36,624 --> 00:12:37,985\n好必須要說現在立法院躺了非常多的財政的惡法為什麼說這些也是惡法呢因為\n\n35\n00:12:57,294 --> 00:13:17,317\n這些法案都一再的說他們要提高預算然後幫這邊加一點那邊加一點但是完全沒有考慮到財政的評估是完全毀壞了財政的紀律的就例如說現在昨天我們省的這個反年改啊就是好不容易我們把這個年改改了之後我們省了大概2800億\n\n36\n00:13:18,798 --> 00:13:37,882\n如果照他們的版本下去這2800億等於完全沒了嘛那再包括這個財化法的近6000億然後花東山法兩兆然後還有我們現在他們也要修老人福利法說65歲健保要免費然後大概也要花個400億這樣隨便叮叮總總加一點這邊開一點那邊開一點其實我們大水庫整個中央的財政馬上就垮掉了嘛\n\n37\n00:13:43,903 --> 00:14:10,504\n我不知道說我們現在中央對於現在立法院躺了這麼多的財政惡法,你們有什麼因應?請院長。而且過去改革的很多法案是為了國家的永續的發展跟生存,也為了讓軍人這個常任久用,常用久任的這個原則。所以如果今天改回去,那變成走回頭路。過去改革的精神完全被破壞了,那國家財政回復到改革之前的困難也不是大家所樂見的。\n\n38\n00:14:11,485 --> 00:14:36,489\n所以我們會逐一的來檢視現在在法案當中埋下對中央政府財政設計的這樣的法案。我們認為他也違反相關的法律。那我們必須在大院裡面或是在委員會裡面我們據理力爭充分的說明。我希望大家還是用中央地方充分合作的角度來看國家的財政會比較健全。\n\n39\n00:14:36,854 --> 00:14:57,045\n好這個一定要拜託我們院裡所有每個部會都一定要堅守這個精神啦就是因為其實看得出來現在立法院有一群人真的就是在掏空國家不管是財政還是媒體上面還是所有的防線都不斷的在架空你們\n\n40\n00:14:58,225 --> 00:15:24,662\n那我認為這個對於國家的影響非常重、非常嚴重那最後一點時間我要講一下因為這個其實也是最近送進來我發現跟我們國家非常有關係的就是這個兩岸監督條例因為其實我們過去在太陽花在主張的就是說要來可以進行兩岸的政治協議之前都要有一個非常嚴格的把關機制所以我們也在兩岸條例裡面在民進黨時期把它收進去了就是五支三條可是現在民眾黨開了一個後門\n\n41\n00:15:26,423 --> 00:15:27,704\n就是把經濟跟政治協議分開\n\n42\n00:15:59,636 --> 00:16:25,957\n好這個要拜託因為以目前民眾黨的版本下去就是在放寬我們兩岸監督條例的底線甚至是把四分之三出席四分之三同意這樣的門檻都降低了無疑就是在因應中共現在跟我們之間的協議的這個底線我認為是非常嚴重的拜託陸委會針對這件事情一定要做好把關\n\n43\n00:16:28,823 --> 00:16:30,644\n謝謝黃捷委員質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第40號廖先祥委員質詢。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6408\t13758\t好,謝謝主席。我們請行政院卓院長還有法務部政部長。再請卓院長、政部長備選。好,院長好。\n25197\t51808\t現在我們行政院已經把這個國會擴成法案已經提請復議了嘛然後我們立法院會在下個禮拜五來進行表決但是我可以預期啦雖然早上院長說你蠻樂觀的但我沒有這麼樂觀因為我認為在現在藍白還是非常執迷不悟而且暫時沒有悔改可能的情況下下個禮拜的表決結果還是非常有可能被否決那我的認為是這樣子啦所以\n52248\t69205\t其實近一個月我接到非常多民眾的陳情,他們都表達極度的擔憂跟焦慮。他們在焦慮什麼呢?他們因為其實我最近把所有我們可行的方案都告訴民眾了說我們一定會窮盡一切可能努力到最後一刻守護我們的憲政體制,守護我們民主的權益。\n72608\t94920\t但是民眾還是很擔心啊他們覺得好像我們現在手無寸鐵怎麼辦呢尤其是接下來即便我們民進黨團體的釋憲但是在憲法法庭宣判之前或是大法官核可這個暫時處分之前是不是會有一個落地的空窗期呢那我不知道說行政院現在針對這件事情有沒有做好最壞的打算\n95800\t121196\t什麼叫做最壞的打算呢?我先講一下說其實這段時間以來已經是上百位的法律學者以及三百位以上的律師都站出來說這部法律就是侵害人民的基本權益然後也有非常多的外媒已經直接警示甚至直接說這部法律就是台灣立法院的過度擴權而且也說這部法案的內容是親中而且削弱總統的權利的\n122617\t151699\t甚至也有日媒直接說國民黨就是中國的特洛伊木馬那當然這個都是外媒的解讀那我是要問啦假設啦下禮拜真的復議失敗了然後我們提復議了我不知道行政院這邊有沒有打算也來提釋憲因為其實行政院是可以提釋憲的嘛那站在行政權的角度你們有什麼理由以及用你們憲政機關的高度來論述這一部擴權法案現在對於行政體系的衝擊呢\n153501\t179154\t謝謝委員我想委員跟我都很清楚目前國會的生態我早上說我只是比較樂觀是因為我必須這樣我才能夠在這個禮拜花一些時間去處理其他重要的公務我如果每天很悲觀的在這個情境裡面那大概很多事情是無法進行所以我必須要抱持這樣的心情但是我也相信如果有經過公開合理而且非常理性的討論\n180894\t201599\t這個案子不一定完全是不可能的,因為我相信委員都還是有正義感在身的,他們還是會發揮出來的,那是不是可能大家共同來努力。當然作為一個憲政機關,我們依照憲政秩序的設計提出復議,這個是我們的責任。但除了憲政機關的這個角色之外,我覺得因為這個職權行使法,\n202459\t227621\t並不是單純就立法委員內部的質詢行使。他牽扯到人民﹑法人﹑部隊以及政府官員。沒錯。要牽扯到人民權益有可能受損。行政機關一定要有責任來保護人民的這個權益。所以我們在這個立場上也必須也可以提出這樣的復議。但是復議的結果如果不是朝我樂觀的想像當中的話那未來\n228522\t243122\t他呈現另外一種結果出現。那憲政秩序上、憲政的設計上還是有再下去的這個救濟的方式。那我想我們還是跟委員剛剛所說的我們窮盡一切的可能來維護憲政機關、維護願績的分立、維護人民的權益。\n246562\t261664\t好謝謝院長在這邊幫院長來加油一下啦這個對於行政體系的衝擊真的非常的大喔因為其實這段時間因為民眾也一直在跟我說他真的好擔心喔怎麼辦接下來人民會不會被調查啊因為他其實在這一部法律\n262506\t278684\t擴傳下去真的是有可能調查人民的包括叫人民提供資料還不得拒絕甚至是他要請律師還要經過主席同意然後你沒有提供資料或是被認為是虛偽陳述都有可能被立法院要罰你錢啊甚至是按次要處罰\n279665\t302097\t那這個刑法就更不用說了這個藐視國會罪我不知道現在的所有的官員坐在上面有沒有都瑟瑟發抖擔心自己說錯話就犯了這個藐視國會罪就要被關有可能被處一年以下的有期徒刑甚至是20萬的罰金那當然啦其實大家都很擔心被這部法律影響可是呢\n302797\t308040\t我必須接觸每一個人是的我必須要說在人權的保障上並不是用百分比來看待對嗎?是的\n329631\t358961\t只要有一個人受到侵害就是侵害這就是我們作為一個人權國家最基本的保障嘛每一個人都應該要被接住啊怎麼會說99.9%的人沒有受影響就沒事呢好那再來請教一下我們法務部長喔您是檢察官出身對嗎是好部長請教一下這部三讀通過的法律裡面讓立委可以來調閱司法或是監察機關的文件的副本請問您怎麼看\n360595\t388082\t這部分還是要依據那個參佐那個釋字585號解釋的來做一個處理他那個585號解釋當然這個立法院有調卷的一個一個權利但是也必須要跟他立法院立法委員的固有的職權有重大的關聯這個這個限制才能夠做一個調卷那我想這個是在585號解釋已經講得非常的一個清楚了那至於立法院這一次的\n388764\t417630\t此前的一個刑事法這部分應該有依託請問偵查中的案件可以被調閱嗎?偵查中的案件是不能夠被調閱的那所以這部法律下去對檢警體系會有什麼樣的影響?我想應該是會有影響因為他那個有些只有在在偵查中的這部分是偵查不公開就是依刑訴訟法這部分是不能公開的那我想這部分我們是\n419371\t423301\t我想這個其實監察院的條件我們都是就是必須要依照這個一個規定的。\n424824\t452663\t好這個就是我希望法務部接下來要堅守的立場因為我講一句比較難聽的啦因為其實我們現在國民黨啊有一些委員他們涉入一些案件例如說詐欺、土利、洩密、收受回饋、內線交易等等這些形式案件假設啦這個國會擴權法案下去他們跟我們現在監禁說他們要調這些案件的進度然後他們要去看這些偵辦中的案件的資料\n453524\t470241\t那會不會影響我們檢調的偵辦的進度?會不會影響這一些案件在作為你們司法獨立審判的這個過程當中的一些輿論或者是串供或者是任何偵查上面的影響?\n475356\t494781\t所以啦我必須要說現在這整部法律就是一台非常這我就一直說這是一個垃圾法案啦他就是一個拼裝車然後一團混亂因為裡面沒有規範到任何對立委自己的自律的要求沒有任何利益迴避的這些規定執行上對你們來說真的會有非常大的問題啊\n496261\t513290\t好謝謝我們先請那個部長先回座那我們院長先留在這邊那接下來我請教一下因為接著這個國會擴權法案我講一下說現在其實中國對台灣的各種各式各樣的威脅是非常大的這個我我把近期其實從1月到現在\n515091\t538340\t的這種威脅列出來喔像是現在軍事繞台軍機繞台軍事演習軍事威脅然後各種的借選跟網路攻擊還有片面的更改M503的航線甚至是中國的海警強登金門的觀光船還有發射火箭飛越我國上空等等然後甚至是還派了武官在捷克來跟蹤我們蕭美琴副總統\n539480\t556093\t的這種行為都有在發生。好謝謝我們主委直接上來了。那我想要講一下就是說這個延續這個國會擴權法案來談是因為這個擴權法案裡面也有可能變成是瓦解台灣國防的破口。\n556753\t570185\t我不知道我們國防部跟我們陸委會主委如何看待這部法律有沒有去評估過這部法律下去對你們會不會有相關的影響就例如說我們現在要做潛艦國造好了\n572034\t599715\t那這個他們用國會調查權來調查弊案然後說國防部請你們提供淺見深聞的資料那我們這些重大的機密資料你必須要提供如果你們沒有提供就給你們開罰這種情況會不會發生呢我不知道你們有沒有在心裡先把最壞的打算想過一遍沒關係先不用回答那這個我必須要講說現在的這個法案下去確實是也有可能造成這樣的問題\n601016\t621885\t那再來我要請教的是其實還是我們院長啦因為其實現在我們立法院裡面躺了非常多的乾坤法案就我所知就你所知這個光是花東的三法兩兆的花東三法還有已經許多委員提到的才化法的修正有可能要吃掉我們中央5777億\n625427\t634057\t我不知道你有沒有想過接下來如果照這個版本通過財化法將近6千億少了之後你們會受到什麼影響?\n635117\t652616\t就是中央政府在財政的對地方補助以及一些天災地變的因應跟一些其他的長期的或是或者是每年都發生的或是單次發生的一些緊急事件那我們在失去了靈活運用的能力其實5700之外的9000億包括\n657519\t676432\t統籌分配稅款一般補助款跟計畫性補助款每年將近9000億那也是已經補助給地方為優先的所以如果再把這個變成一個齊頭式的水平式的分配的話那中央會失去這個能力很多的事情就沒有辦法在短時間內為地方做更多的努力\n677213\t702652\t沒錯,尤其是我是高雄的立委啦,我們高雄過去也是如果沒有中央這樣子可以靈活運用以及注重地方橫平性注重城鄉發展這樣的精神的話其實我們地方還是非常可憐的喔,很多事情都做不了,大眾運輸也做不了然後這種從中央什麼育兒津貼租屋補助到社會住宅都做不了\n703673\t726951\t所以中央統籌分配還是非常重要的我希望你們要堅守這個立場接下來在不管各縣市大家一起來協商的時候一定要注重城鄉發展跟地方的衡平好不好是的這個拜託要請院長堅守喔那我剛剛會提到這個現在有這麼多的乾坑法案是因為我們中央的財政紀律要嚴守\n728012\t735735\t是的,我們不希望這些將中央財政削弱的這些很多的法案同時出現在國會裡面,那同時讓它變成一個立法來拘束中央。如果這樣的形成的話,剛剛說的中央這財政應變的能力就完全喪失了。\n756624\t757985\t好必須要說現在立法院躺了非常多的財政的惡法為什麼說這些也是惡法呢因為\n777294\t797317\t這些法案都一再的說他們要提高預算然後幫這邊加一點那邊加一點但是完全沒有考慮到財政的評估是完全毀壞了財政的紀律的就例如說現在昨天我們省的這個反年改啊就是好不容易我們把這個年改改了之後我們省了大概2800億\n798798\t817882\t如果照他們的版本下去這2800億等於完全沒了嘛那再包括這個財化法的近6000億然後花東山法兩兆然後還有我們現在他們也要修老人福利法說65歲健保要免費然後大概也要花個400億這樣隨便叮叮總總加一點這邊開一點那邊開一點其實我們大水庫整個中央的財政馬上就垮掉了嘛\n823903\t850504\t我不知道說我們現在中央對於現在立法院躺了這麼多的財政惡法,你們有什麼因應?請院長。而且過去改革的很多法案是為了國家的永續的發展跟生存,也為了讓軍人這個常任久用,常用久任的這個原則。所以如果今天改回去,那變成走回頭路。過去改革的精神完全被破壞了,那國家財政回復到改革之前的困難也不是大家所樂見的。\n851485\t876489\t所以我們會逐一的來檢視現在在法案當中埋下對中央政府財政設計的這樣的法案。我們認為他也違反相關的法律。那我們必須在大院裡面或是在委員會裡面我們據理力爭充分的說明。我希望大家還是用中央地方充分合作的角度來看國家的財政會比較健全。\n876854\t897045\t好 這個一定要拜託我們院裡所有每個部會都一定要堅守這個精神啦就是因為其實看得出來現在立法院有一群人真的就是在掏空國家不管是財政還是媒體上面還是所有的防線都不斷的在架空你們\n898225\t924662\t那我認為這個對於國家的影響非常重、非常嚴重那最後一點時間我要講一下因為這個其實也是最近送進來我發現跟我們國家非常有關係的就是這個兩岸監督條例因為其實我們過去在太陽花在主張的就是說要來可以進行兩岸的政治協議之前都要有一個非常嚴格的把關機制所以我們也在兩岸條例裡面在民進黨時期把它收進去了就是五支三條可是現在民眾黨開了一個後門\n926423\t927704\t就是把經濟跟政治協議分開\n959636\t985957\t好 這個要拜託因為以目前民眾黨的版本下去就是在放寬我們兩岸監督條例的底線甚至是把四分之三出席四分之三同意這樣的門檻都降低了無疑就是在因應中共現在跟我們之間的協議的這個底線我認為是非常嚴重的拜託陸委會針對這件事情一定要做好把關\n988823\t990644\t謝謝黃捷委員質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第40號廖先祥委員質詢。\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席。我們請行政院卓院長還有法務部政部長。再請卓院長、政部長備選。好,院長好。\n現在我們行政院已經把這個國會擴成法案已經提請復議了嘛然後我們立法院會在下個禮拜五來進行表決但是我可以預期啦雖然早上院長說你蠻樂觀的但我沒有這麼樂觀因為我認為在現在藍白還是非常執迷不悟而且暫時沒有悔改可能的情況下下個禮拜的表決結果還是非常有可能被否決那我的認為是這樣子啦所以\n其實近一個月我接到非常多民眾的陳情,他們都表達極度的擔憂跟焦慮。他們在焦慮什麼呢?他們因為其實我最近把所有我們可行的方案都告訴民眾了說我們一定會窮盡一切可能努力到最後一刻守護我們的憲政體制,守護我們民主的權益。\n但是民眾還是很擔心啊他們覺得好像我們現在手無寸鐵怎麼辦呢尤其是接下來即便我們民進黨團體的釋憲但是在憲法法庭宣判之前或是大法官核可這個暫時處分之前是不是會有一個落地的空窗期呢那我不知道說行政院現在針對這件事情有沒有做好最壞的打算\n什麼叫做最壞的打算呢?我先講一下說其實這段時間以來已經是上百位的法律學者以及三百位以上的律師都站出來說這部法律就是侵害人民的基本權益然後也有非常多的外媒已經直接警示甚至直接說這部法律就是台灣立法院的過度擴權而且也說這部法案的內容是親中而且削弱總統的權利的\n甚至也有日媒直接說國民黨就是中國的特洛伊木馬那當然這個都是外媒的解讀那我是要問啦假設啦下禮拜真的復議失敗了然後我們提復議了我不知道行政院這邊有沒有打算也來提釋憲因為其實行政院是可以提釋憲的嘛那站在行政權的角度你們有什麼理由以及用你們憲政機關的高度來論述這一部擴權法案現在對於行政體系的衝擊呢\n謝謝委員我想委員跟我都很清楚目前國會的生態我早上說我只是比較樂觀是因為我必須這樣我才能夠在這個禮拜花一些時間去處理其他重要的公務我如果每天很悲觀的在這個情境裡面那大概很多事情是無法進行所以我必須要抱持這樣的心情但是我也相信如果有經過公開合理而且非常理性的討論\n這個案子不一定完全是不可能的,因為我相信委員都還是有正義感在身的,他們還是會發揮出來的,那是不是可能大家共同來努力。當然作為一個憲政機關,我們依照憲政秩序的設計提出復議,這個是我們的責任。但除了憲政機關的這個角色之外,我覺得因為這個職權行使法,\n並不是單純就立法委員內部的質詢行使。他牽扯到人民﹑法人﹑部隊以及政府官員。沒錯。要牽扯到人民權益有可能受損。行政機關一定要有責任來保護人民的這個權益。所以我們在這個立場上也必須也可以提出這樣的復議。但是復議的結果如果不是朝我樂觀的想像當中的話那未來\n他呈現另外一種結果出現。那憲政秩序上、憲政的設計上還是有再下去的這個救濟的方式。那我想我們還是跟委員剛剛所說的我們窮盡一切的可能來維護憲政機關、維護願績的分立、維護人民的權益。\n好謝謝院長在這邊幫院長來加油一下啦這個對於行政體系的衝擊真的非常的大喔因為其實這段時間因為民眾也一直在跟我說他真的好擔心喔怎麼辦接下來人民會不會被調查啊因為他其實在這一部法律\n擴傳下去真的是有可能調查人民的包括叫人民提供資料還不得拒絕甚至是他要請律師還要經過主席同意然後你沒有提供資料或是被認為是虛偽陳述都有可能被立法院要罰你錢啊甚至是按次要處罰\n那這個刑法就更不用說了這個藐視國會罪我不知道現在的所有的官員坐在上面有沒有都瑟瑟發抖擔心自己說錯話就犯了這個藐視國會罪就要被關有可能被處一年以下的有期徒刑甚至是20萬的罰金那當然啦其實大家都很擔心被這部法律影響可是呢\n我必須接觸每一個人是的我必須要說在人權的保障上並不是用百分比來看待對嗎?是的\n只要有一個人受到侵害就是侵害這就是我們作為一個人權國家最基本的保障嘛每一個人都應該要被接住啊怎麼會說99.9%的人沒有受影響就沒事呢好那再來請教一下我們法務部長喔您是檢察官出身對嗎是好部長請教一下這部三讀通過的法律裡面讓立委可以來調閱司法或是監察機關的文件的副本請問您怎麼看\n這部分還是要依據那個參佐那個釋字585號解釋的來做一個處理他那個585號解釋當然這個立法院有調卷的一個一個權利但是也必須要跟他立法院立法委員的固有的職權有重大的關聯這個這個限制才能夠做一個調卷那我想這個是在585號解釋已經講得非常的一個清楚了那至於立法院這一次的\n此前的一個刑事法這部分應該有依託請問偵查中的案件可以被調閱嗎?偵查中的案件是不能夠被調閱的那所以這部法律下去對檢警體系會有什麼樣的影響?我想應該是會有影響因為他那個有些只有在在偵查中的這部分是偵查不公開就是依刑訴訟法這部分是不能公開的那我想這部分我們是\n我想這個其實監察院的條件我們都是就是必須要依照這個一個規定的。\n好這個就是我希望法務部接下來要堅守的立場因為我講一句比較難聽的啦因為其實我們現在國民黨啊有一些委員他們涉入一些案件例如說詐欺、土利、洩密、收受回饋、內線交易等等這些形式案件假設啦這個國會擴權法案下去他們跟我們現在監禁說他們要調這些案件的進度然後他們要去看這些偵辦中的案件的資料\n那會不會影響我們檢調的偵辦的進度?會不會影響這一些案件在作為你們司法獨立審判的這個過程當中的一些輿論或者是串供或者是任何偵查上面的影響?\n所以啦我必須要說現在這整部法律就是一台非常這我就一直說這是一個垃圾法案啦他就是一個拼裝車然後一團混亂因為裡面沒有規範到任何對立委自己的自律的要求沒有任何利益迴避的這些規定執行上對你們來說真的會有非常大的問題啊\n好謝謝我們先請那個部長先回座那我們院長先留在這邊那接下來我請教一下因為接著這個國會擴權法案我講一下說現在其實中國對台灣的各種各式各樣的威脅是非常大的這個我我把近期其實從1月到現在\n的這種威脅列出來喔像是現在軍事繞台軍機繞台軍事演習軍事威脅然後各種的借選跟網路攻擊還有片面的更改M503的航線甚至是中國的海警強登金門的觀光船還有發射火箭飛越我國上空等等然後甚至是還派了武官在捷克來跟蹤我們蕭美琴副總統\n的這種行為都有在發生。好謝謝我們主委直接上來了。那我想要講一下就是說這個延續這個國會擴權法案來談是因為這個擴權法案裡面也有可能變成是瓦解台灣國防的破口。\n我不知道我們國防部跟我們陸委會主委如何看待這部法律有沒有去評估過這部法律下去對你們會不會有相關的影響就例如說我們現在要做潛艦國造好了\n那這個他們用國會調查權來調查弊案然後說國防部請你們提供淺見深聞的資料那我們這些重大的機密資料你必須要提供如果你們沒有提供就給你們開罰這種情況會不會發生呢我不知道你們有沒有在心裡先把最壞的打算想過一遍沒關係先不用回答那這個我必須要講說現在的這個法案下去確實是也有可能造成這樣的問題\n那再來我要請教的是其實還是我們院長啦因為其實現在我們立法院裡面躺了非常多的乾坤法案就我所知就你所知這個光是花東的三法兩兆的花東三法還有已經許多委員提到的才化法的修正有可能要吃掉我們中央5777億\n我不知道你有沒有想過接下來如果照這個版本通過財化法將近6千億少了之後你們會受到什麼影響?\n就是中央政府在財政的對地方補助以及一些天災地變的因應跟一些其他的長期的或是或者是每年都發生的或是單次發生的一些緊急事件那我們在失去了靈活運用的能力其實5700之外的9000億包括\n統籌分配稅款一般補助款跟計畫性補助款每年將近9000億那也是已經補助給地方為優先的所以如果再把這個變成一個齊頭式的水平式的分配的話那中央會失去這個能力很多的事情就沒有辦法在短時間內為地方做更多的努力\n沒錯,尤其是我是高雄的立委啦,我們高雄過去也是如果沒有中央這樣子可以靈活運用以及注重地方橫平性注重城鄉發展這樣的精神的話其實我們地方還是非常可憐的喔,很多事情都做不了,大眾運輸也做不了然後這種從中央什麼育兒津貼租屋補助到社會住宅都做不了\n所以中央統籌分配還是非常重要的我希望你們要堅守這個立場接下來在不管各縣市大家一起來協商的時候一定要注重城鄉發展跟地方的衡平好不好是的這個拜託要請院長堅守喔那我剛剛會提到這個現在有這麼多的乾坑法案是因為我們中央的財政紀律要嚴守\n是的,我們不希望這些將中央財政削弱的這些很多的法案同時出現在國會裡面,那同時讓它變成一個立法來拘束中央。如果這樣的形成的話,剛剛說的中央這財政應變的能力就完全喪失了。\n好必須要說現在立法院躺了非常多的財政的惡法為什麼說這些也是惡法呢因為\n這些法案都一再的說他們要提高預算然後幫這邊加一點那邊加一點但是完全沒有考慮到財政的評估是完全毀壞了財政的紀律的就例如說現在昨天我們省的這個反年改啊就是好不容易我們把這個年改改了之後我們省了大概2800億\n如果照他們的版本下去這2800億等於完全沒了嘛那再包括這個財化法的近6000億然後花東山法兩兆然後還有我們現在他們也要修老人福利法說65歲健保要免費然後大概也要花個400億這樣隨便叮叮總總加一點這邊開一點那邊開一點其實我們大水庫整個中央的財政馬上就垮掉了嘛\n我不知道說我們現在中央對於現在立法院躺了這麼多的財政惡法,你們有什麼因應?請院長。而且過去改革的很多法案是為了國家的永續的發展跟生存,也為了讓軍人這個常任久用,常用久任的這個原則。所以如果今天改回去,那變成走回頭路。過去改革的精神完全被破壞了,那國家財政回復到改革之前的困難也不是大家所樂見的。\n所以我們會逐一的來檢視現在在法案當中埋下對中央政府財政設計的這樣的法案。我們認為他也違反相關的法律。那我們必須在大院裡面或是在委員會裡面我們據理力爭充分的說明。我希望大家還是用中央地方充分合作的角度來看國家的財政會比較健全。\n好 這個一定要拜託我們院裡所有每個部會都一定要堅守這個精神啦就是因為其實看得出來現在立法院有一群人真的就是在掏空國家不管是財政還是媒體上面還是所有的防線都不斷的在架空你們\n那我認為這個對於國家的影響非常重、非常嚴重那最後一點時間我要講一下因為這個其實也是最近送進來我發現跟我們國家非常有關係的就是這個兩岸監督條例因為其實我們過去在太陽花在主張的就是說要來可以進行兩岸的政治協議之前都要有一個非常嚴格的把關機制所以我們也在兩岸條例裡面在民進黨時期把它收進去了就是五支三條可是現在民眾黨開了一個後門\n就是把經濟跟政治協議分開\n好 這個要拜託因為以目前民眾黨的版本下去就是在放寬我們兩岸監督條例的底線甚至是把四分之三出席四分之三同意這樣的門檻都降低了無疑就是在因應中共現在跟我們之間的協議的這個底線我認為是非常嚴重的拜託陸委會針對這件事情一定要做好把關\n謝謝黃捷委員質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第40號廖先祥委員質詢。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.408 --> 00:13.758\n好,謝謝主席。我們請行政院卓院長還有法務部政部長。再請卓院長、政部長備選。好,院長好。\n\n00:25.197 --> 00:51.808\n現在我們行政院已經把這個國會擴成法案已經提請復議了嘛然後我們立法院會在下個禮拜五來進行表決但是我可以預期啦雖然早上院長說你蠻樂觀的但我沒有這麼樂觀因為我認為在現在藍白還是非常執迷不悟而且暫時沒有悔改可能的情況下下個禮拜的表決結果還是非常有可能被否決那我的認為是這樣子啦所以\n\n00:52.248 --> 01:09.205\n其實近一個月我接到非常多民眾的陳情,他們都表達極度的擔憂跟焦慮。他們在焦慮什麼呢?他們因為其實我最近把所有我們可行的方案都告訴民眾了說我們一定會窮盡一切可能努力到最後一刻守護我們的憲政體制,守護我們民主的權益。\n\n01:12.608 --> 01:34.920\n但是民眾還是很擔心啊他們覺得好像我們現在手無寸鐵怎麼辦呢尤其是接下來即便我們民進黨團體的釋憲但是在憲法法庭宣判之前或是大法官核可這個暫時處分之前是不是會有一個落地的空窗期呢那我不知道說行政院現在針對這件事情有沒有做好最壞的打算\n\n01:35.800 --> 02:01.196\n什麼叫做最壞的打算呢?我先講一下說其實這段時間以來已經是上百位的法律學者以及三百位以上的律師都站出來說這部法律就是侵害人民的基本權益然後也有非常多的外媒已經直接警示甚至直接說這部法律就是台灣立法院的過度擴權而且也說這部法案的內容是親中而且削弱總統的權利的\n\n02:02.617 --> 02:31.699\n甚至也有日媒直接說國民黨就是中國的特洛伊木馬那當然這個都是外媒的解讀那我是要問啦假設啦下禮拜真的復議失敗了然後我們提復議了我不知道行政院這邊有沒有打算也來提釋憲因為其實行政院是可以提釋憲的嘛那站在行政權的角度你們有什麼理由以及用你們憲政機關的高度來論述這一部擴權法案現在對於行政體系的衝擊呢\n\n02:33.501 --> 02:59.154\n謝謝委員我想委員跟我都很清楚目前國會的生態我早上說我只是比較樂觀是因為我必須這樣我才能夠在這個禮拜花一些時間去處理其他重要的公務我如果每天很悲觀的在這個情境裡面那大概很多事情是無法進行所以我必須要抱持這樣的心情但是我也相信如果有經過公開合理而且非常理性的討論\n\n03:00.894 --> 03:21.599\n這個案子不一定完全是不可能的,因為我相信委員都還是有正義感在身的,他們還是會發揮出來的,那是不是可能大家共同來努力。當然作為一個憲政機關,我們依照憲政秩序的設計提出復議,這個是我們的責任。但除了憲政機關的這個角色之外,我覺得因為這個職權行使法,\n\n03:22.459 --> 03:47.621\n並不是單純就立法委員內部的質詢行使。他牽扯到人民﹑法人﹑部隊以及政府官員。沒錯。要牽扯到人民權益有可能受損。行政機關一定要有責任來保護人民的這個權益。所以我們在這個立場上也必須也可以提出這樣的復議。但是復議的結果如果不是朝我樂觀的想像當中的話那未來\n\n03:48.522 --> 04:03.122\n他呈現另外一種結果出現。那憲政秩序上、憲政的設計上還是有再下去的這個救濟的方式。那我想我們還是跟委員剛剛所說的我們窮盡一切的可能來維護憲政機關、維護願績的分立、維護人民的權益。\n\n04:06.562 --> 04:21.664\n好謝謝院長在這邊幫院長來加油一下啦這個對於行政體系的衝擊真的非常的大喔因為其實這段時間因為民眾也一直在跟我說他真的好擔心喔怎麼辦接下來人民會不會被調查啊因為他其實在這一部法律\n\n04:22.506 --> 04:38.684\n擴傳下去真的是有可能調查人民的包括叫人民提供資料還不得拒絕甚至是他要請律師還要經過主席同意然後你沒有提供資料或是被認為是虛偽陳述都有可能被立法院要罰你錢啊甚至是按次要處罰\n\n04:39.665 --> 05:02.097\n那這個刑法就更不用說了這個藐視國會罪我不知道現在的所有的官員坐在上面有沒有都瑟瑟發抖擔心自己說錯話就犯了這個藐視國會罪就要被關有可能被處一年以下的有期徒刑甚至是20萬的罰金那當然啦其實大家都很擔心被這部法律影響可是呢\n\n05:02.797 --> 05:08.040\n我必須接觸每一個人是的我必須要說在人權的保障上並不是用百分比來看待對嗎?是的\n\n05:29.631 --> 05:58.961\n只要有一個人受到侵害就是侵害這就是我們作為一個人權國家最基本的保障嘛每一個人都應該要被接住啊怎麼會說99.9%的人沒有受影響就沒事呢好那再來請教一下我們法務部長喔您是檢察官出身對嗎是好部長請教一下這部三讀通過的法律裡面讓立委可以來調閱司法或是監察機關的文件的副本請問您怎麼看\n\n06:00.595 --> 06:28.082\n這部分還是要依據那個參佐那個釋字585號解釋的來做一個處理他那個585號解釋當然這個立法院有調卷的一個一個權利但是也必須要跟他立法院立法委員的固有的職權有重大的關聯這個這個限制才能夠做一個調卷那我想這個是在585號解釋已經講得非常的一個清楚了那至於立法院這一次的\n\n06:28.764 --> 06:57.630\n此前的一個刑事法這部分應該有依託請問偵查中的案件可以被調閱嗎?偵查中的案件是不能夠被調閱的那所以這部法律下去對檢警體系會有什麼樣的影響?我想應該是會有影響因為他那個有些只有在在偵查中的這部分是偵查不公開就是依刑訴訟法這部分是不能公開的那我想這部分我們是\n\n06:59.371 --> 07:03.301\n我想這個其實監察院的條件我們都是就是必須要依照這個一個規定的。\n\n07:04.824 --> 07:32.663\n好這個就是我希望法務部接下來要堅守的立場因為我講一句比較難聽的啦因為其實我們現在國民黨啊有一些委員他們涉入一些案件例如說詐欺、土利、洩密、收受回饋、內線交易等等這些形式案件假設啦這個國會擴權法案下去他們跟我們現在監禁說他們要調這些案件的進度然後他們要去看這些偵辦中的案件的資料\n\n07:33.524 --> 07:50.241\n那會不會影響我們檢調的偵辦的進度?會不會影響這一些案件在作為你們司法獨立審判的這個過程當中的一些輿論或者是串供或者是任何偵查上面的影響?\n\n07:55.356 --> 08:14.781\n所以啦我必須要說現在這整部法律就是一台非常這我就一直說這是一個垃圾法案啦他就是一個拼裝車然後一團混亂因為裡面沒有規範到任何對立委自己的自律的要求沒有任何利益迴避的這些規定執行上對你們來說真的會有非常大的問題啊\n\n08:16.261 --> 08:33.290\n好謝謝我們先請那個部長先回座那我們院長先留在這邊那接下來我請教一下因為接著這個國會擴權法案我講一下說現在其實中國對台灣的各種各式各樣的威脅是非常大的這個我我把近期其實從1月到現在\n\n08:35.091 --> 08:58.340\n的這種威脅列出來喔像是現在軍事繞台軍機繞台軍事演習軍事威脅然後各種的借選跟網路攻擊還有片面的更改M503的航線甚至是中國的海警強登金門的觀光船還有發射火箭飛越我國上空等等然後甚至是還派了武官在捷克來跟蹤我們蕭美琴副總統\n\n08:59.480 --> 09:16.093\n的這種行為都有在發生。好謝謝我們主委直接上來了。那我想要講一下就是說這個延續這個國會擴權法案來談是因為這個擴權法案裡面也有可能變成是瓦解台灣國防的破口。\n\n09:16.753 --> 09:30.185\n我不知道我們國防部跟我們陸委會主委如何看待這部法律有沒有去評估過這部法律下去對你們會不會有相關的影響就例如說我們現在要做潛艦國造好了\n\n09:32.034 --> 09:59.715\n那這個他們用國會調查權來調查弊案然後說國防部請你們提供淺見深聞的資料那我們這些重大的機密資料你必須要提供如果你們沒有提供就給你們開罰這種情況會不會發生呢我不知道你們有沒有在心裡先把最壞的打算想過一遍沒關係先不用回答那這個我必須要講說現在的這個法案下去確實是也有可能造成這樣的問題\n\n10:01.016 --> 10:21.885\n那再來我要請教的是其實還是我們院長啦因為其實現在我們立法院裡面躺了非常多的乾坤法案就我所知就你所知這個光是花東的三法兩兆的花東三法還有已經許多委員提到的才化法的修正有可能要吃掉我們中央5777億\n\n10:25.427 --> 10:34.057\n我不知道你有沒有想過接下來如果照這個版本通過財化法將近6千億少了之後你們會受到什麼影響?\n\n10:35.117 --> 10:52.616\n就是中央政府在財政的對地方補助以及一些天災地變的因應跟一些其他的長期的或是或者是每年都發生的或是單次發生的一些緊急事件那我們在失去了靈活運用的能力其實5700之外的9000億包括\n\n10:57.519 --> 11:16.432\n統籌分配稅款一般補助款跟計畫性補助款每年將近9000億那也是已經補助給地方為優先的所以如果再把這個變成一個齊頭式的水平式的分配的話那中央會失去這個能力很多的事情就沒有辦法在短時間內為地方做更多的努力\n\n11:17.213 --> 11:42.652\n沒錯,尤其是我是高雄的立委啦,我們高雄過去也是如果沒有中央這樣子可以靈活運用以及注重地方橫平性注重城鄉發展這樣的精神的話其實我們地方還是非常可憐的喔,很多事情都做不了,大眾運輸也做不了然後這種從中央什麼育兒津貼租屋補助到社會住宅都做不了\n\n11:43.673 --> 12:06.951\n所以中央統籌分配還是非常重要的我希望你們要堅守這個立場接下來在不管各縣市大家一起來協商的時候一定要注重城鄉發展跟地方的衡平好不好是的這個拜託要請院長堅守喔那我剛剛會提到這個現在有這麼多的乾坑法案是因為我們中央的財政紀律要嚴守\n\n12:08.012 --> 12:15.735\n是的,我們不希望這些將中央財政削弱的這些很多的法案同時出現在國會裡面,那同時讓它變成一個立法來拘束中央。如果這樣的形成的話,剛剛說的中央這財政應變的能力就完全喪失了。\n\n12:36.624 --> 12:37.985\n好必須要說現在立法院躺了非常多的財政的惡法為什麼說這些也是惡法呢因為\n\n12:57.294 --> 13:17.317\n這些法案都一再的說他們要提高預算然後幫這邊加一點那邊加一點但是完全沒有考慮到財政的評估是完全毀壞了財政的紀律的就例如說現在昨天我們省的這個反年改啊就是好不容易我們把這個年改改了之後我們省了大概2800億\n\n13:18.798 --> 13:37.882\n如果照他們的版本下去這2800億等於完全沒了嘛那再包括這個財化法的近6000億然後花東山法兩兆然後還有我們現在他們也要修老人福利法說65歲健保要免費然後大概也要花個400億這樣隨便叮叮總總加一點這邊開一點那邊開一點其實我們大水庫整個中央的財政馬上就垮掉了嘛\n\n13:43.903 --> 14:10.504\n我不知道說我們現在中央對於現在立法院躺了這麼多的財政惡法,你們有什麼因應?請院長。而且過去改革的很多法案是為了國家的永續的發展跟生存,也為了讓軍人這個常任久用,常用久任的這個原則。所以如果今天改回去,那變成走回頭路。過去改革的精神完全被破壞了,那國家財政回復到改革之前的困難也不是大家所樂見的。\n\n14:11.485 --> 14:36.489\n所以我們會逐一的來檢視現在在法案當中埋下對中央政府財政設計的這樣的法案。我們認為他也違反相關的法律。那我們必須在大院裡面或是在委員會裡面我們據理力爭充分的說明。我希望大家還是用中央地方充分合作的角度來看國家的財政會比較健全。\n\n14:36.854 --> 14:57.045\n好這個一定要拜託我們院裡所有每個部會都一定要堅守這個精神啦就是因為其實看得出來現在立法院有一群人真的就是在掏空國家不管是財政還是媒體上面還是所有的防線都不斷的在架空你們\n\n14:58.225 --> 15:24.662\n那我認為這個對於國家的影響非常重、非常嚴重那最後一點時間我要講一下因為這個其實也是最近送進來我發現跟我們國家非常有關係的就是這個兩岸監督條例因為其實我們過去在太陽花在主張的就是說要來可以進行兩岸的政治協議之前都要有一個非常嚴格的把關機制所以我們也在兩岸條例裡面在民進黨時期把它收進去了就是五支三條可是現在民眾黨開了一個後門\n\n15:26.423 --> 15:27.704\n就是把經濟跟政治協議分開\n\n15:59.636 --> 16:25.957\n好這個要拜託因為以目前民眾黨的版本下去就是在放寬我們兩岸監督條例的底線甚至是把四分之三出席四分之三同意這樣的門檻都降低了無疑就是在因應中共現在跟我們之間的協議的這個底線我認為是非常嚴重的拜託陸委會針對這件事情一定要做好把關\n\n16:28.823 --> 16:30.644\n謝謝黃捷委員質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第40號廖先祥委員質詢。\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.408,"end":13.758,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們請行政院卓院長還有法務部政部長。再請卓院長、政部長備選。好,院長好。"},{"start":25.197,"end":51.808,"text":"現在我們行政院已經把這個國會擴成法案已經提請復議了嘛然後我們立法院會在下個禮拜五來進行表決但是我可以預期啦雖然早上院長說你蠻樂觀的但我沒有這麼樂觀因為我認為在現在藍白還是非常執迷不悟而且暫時沒有悔改可能的情況下下個禮拜的表決結果還是非常有可能被否決那我的認為是這樣子啦所以"},{"start":52.248,"end":69.205,"text":"其實近一個月我接到非常多民眾的陳情,他們都表達極度的擔憂跟焦慮。他們在焦慮什麼呢?他們因為其實我最近把所有我們可行的方案都告訴民眾了說我們一定會窮盡一切可能努力到最後一刻守護我們的憲政體制,守護我們民主的權益。"},{"start":72.608,"end":94.92,"text":"但是民眾還是很擔心啊他們覺得好像我們現在手無寸鐵怎麼辦呢尤其是接下來即便我們民進黨團體的釋憲但是在憲法法庭宣判之前或是大法官核可這個暫時處分之前是不是會有一個落地的空窗期呢那我不知道說行政院現在針對這件事情有沒有做好最壞的打算"},{"start":95.8,"end":121.196,"text":"什麼叫做最壞的打算呢?我先講一下說其實這段時間以來已經是上百位的法律學者以及三百位以上的律師都站出來說這部法律就是侵害人民的基本權益然後也有非常多的外媒已經直接警示甚至直接說這部法律就是台灣立法院的過度擴權而且也說這部法案的內容是親中而且削弱總統的權利的"},{"start":122.617,"end":151.699,"text":"甚至也有日媒直接說國民黨就是中國的特洛伊木馬那當然這個都是外媒的解讀那我是要問啦假設啦下禮拜真的復議失敗了然後我們提復議了我不知道行政院這邊有沒有打算也來提釋憲因為其實行政院是可以提釋憲的嘛那站在行政權的角度你們有什麼理由以及用你們憲政機關的高度來論述這一部擴權法案現在對於行政體系的衝擊呢"},{"start":153.501,"end":179.154,"text":"謝謝委員我想委員跟我都很清楚目前國會的生態我早上說我只是比較樂觀是因為我必須這樣我才能夠在這個禮拜花一些時間去處理其他重要的公務我如果每天很悲觀的在這個情境裡面那大概很多事情是無法進行所以我必須要抱持這樣的心情但是我也相信如果有經過公開合理而且非常理性的討論"},{"start":180.894,"end":201.599,"text":"這個案子不一定完全是不可能的,因為我相信委員都還是有正義感在身的,他們還是會發揮出來的,那是不是可能大家共同來努力。當然作為一個憲政機關,我們依照憲政秩序的設計提出復議,這個是我們的責任。但除了憲政機關的這個角色之外,我覺得因為這個職權行使法,"},{"start":202.459,"end":227.621,"text":"並不是單純就立法委員內部的質詢行使。他牽扯到人民﹑法人﹑部隊以及政府官員。沒錯。要牽扯到人民權益有可能受損。行政機關一定要有責任來保護人民的這個權益。所以我們在這個立場上也必須也可以提出這樣的復議。但是復議的結果如果不是朝我樂觀的想像當中的話那未來"},{"start":228.522,"end":243.122,"text":"他呈現另外一種結果出現。那憲政秩序上、憲政的設計上還是有再下去的這個救濟的方式。那我想我們還是跟委員剛剛所說的我們窮盡一切的可能來維護憲政機關、維護願績的分立、維護人民的權益。"},{"start":246.562,"end":261.664,"text":"好謝謝院長在這邊幫院長來加油一下啦這個對於行政體系的衝擊真的非常的大喔因為其實這段時間因為民眾也一直在跟我說他真的好擔心喔怎麼辦接下來人民會不會被調查啊因為他其實在這一部法律"},{"start":262.506,"end":278.684,"text":"擴傳下去真的是有可能調查人民的包括叫人民提供資料還不得拒絕甚至是他要請律師還要經過主席同意然後你沒有提供資料或是被認為是虛偽陳述都有可能被立法院要罰你錢啊甚至是按次要處罰"},{"start":279.665,"end":302.097,"text":"那這個刑法就更不用說了這個藐視國會罪我不知道現在的所有的官員坐在上面有沒有都瑟瑟發抖擔心自己說錯話就犯了這個藐視國會罪就要被關有可能被處一年以下的有期徒刑甚至是20萬的罰金那當然啦其實大家都很擔心被這部法律影響可是呢"},{"start":302.797,"end":308.04,"text":"我必須接觸每一個人是的我必須要說在人權的保障上並不是用百分比來看待對嗎?是的"},{"start":329.631,"end":358.961,"text":"只要有一個人受到侵害就是侵害這就是我們作為一個人權國家最基本的保障嘛每一個人都應該要被接住啊怎麼會說99.9%的人沒有受影響就沒事呢好那再來請教一下我們法務部長喔您是檢察官出身對嗎是好部長請教一下這部三讀通過的法律裡面讓立委可以來調閱司法或是監察機關的文件的副本請問您怎麼看"},{"start":360.595,"end":388.082,"text":"這部分還是要依據那個參佐那個釋字585號解釋的來做一個處理他那個585號解釋當然這個立法院有調卷的一個一個權利但是也必須要跟他立法院立法委員的固有的職權有重大的關聯這個這個限制才能夠做一個調卷那我想這個是在585號解釋已經講得非常的一個清楚了那至於立法院這一次的"},{"start":388.764,"end":417.63,"text":"此前的一個刑事法這部分應該有依託請問偵查中的案件可以被調閱嗎?偵查中的案件是不能夠被調閱的那所以這部法律下去對檢警體系會有什麼樣的影響?我想應該是會有影響因為他那個有些只有在在偵查中的這部分是偵查不公開就是依刑訴訟法這部分是不能公開的那我想這部分我們是"},{"start":419.371,"end":423.301,"text":"我想這個其實監察院的條件我們都是就是必須要依照這個一個規定的。"},{"start":424.824,"end":452.663,"text":"好這個就是我希望法務部接下來要堅守的立場因為我講一句比較難聽的啦因為其實我們現在國民黨啊有一些委員他們涉入一些案件例如說詐欺、土利、洩密、收受回饋、內線交易等等這些形式案件假設啦這個國會擴權法案下去他們跟我們現在監禁說他們要調這些案件的進度然後他們要去看這些偵辦中的案件的資料"},{"start":453.524,"end":470.241,"text":"那會不會影響我們檢調的偵辦的進度?會不會影響這一些案件在作為你們司法獨立審判的這個過程當中的一些輿論或者是串供或者是任何偵查上面的影響?"},{"start":475.356,"end":494.781,"text":"所以啦我必須要說現在這整部法律就是一台非常這我就一直說這是一個垃圾法案啦他就是一個拼裝車然後一團混亂因為裡面沒有規範到任何對立委自己的自律的要求沒有任何利益迴避的這些規定執行上對你們來說真的會有非常大的問題啊"},{"start":496.261,"end":513.29,"text":"好謝謝我們先請那個部長先回座那我們院長先留在這邊那接下來我請教一下因為接著這個國會擴權法案我講一下說現在其實中國對台灣的各種各式各樣的威脅是非常大的這個我我把近期其實從1月到現在"},{"start":515.091,"end":538.34,"text":"的這種威脅列出來喔像是現在軍事繞台軍機繞台軍事演習軍事威脅然後各種的借選跟網路攻擊還有片面的更改M503的航線甚至是中國的海警強登金門的觀光船還有發射火箭飛越我國上空等等然後甚至是還派了武官在捷克來跟蹤我們蕭美琴副總統"},{"start":539.48,"end":556.093,"text":"的這種行為都有在發生。好謝謝我們主委直接上來了。那我想要講一下就是說這個延續這個國會擴權法案來談是因為這個擴權法案裡面也有可能變成是瓦解台灣國防的破口。"},{"start":556.753,"end":570.185,"text":"我不知道我們國防部跟我們陸委會主委如何看待這部法律有沒有去評估過這部法律下去對你們會不會有相關的影響就例如說我們現在要做潛艦國造好了"},{"start":572.034,"end":599.715,"text":"那這個他們用國會調查權來調查弊案然後說國防部請你們提供淺見深聞的資料那我們這些重大的機密資料你必須要提供如果你們沒有提供就給你們開罰這種情況會不會發生呢我不知道你們有沒有在心裡先把最壞的打算想過一遍沒關係先不用回答那這個我必須要講說現在的這個法案下去確實是也有可能造成這樣的問題"},{"start":601.016,"end":621.885,"text":"那再來我要請教的是其實還是我們院長啦因為其實現在我們立法院裡面躺了非常多的乾坤法案就我所知就你所知這個光是花東的三法兩兆的花東三法還有已經許多委員提到的才化法的修正有可能要吃掉我們中央5777億"},{"start":625.427,"end":634.057,"text":"我不知道你有沒有想過接下來如果照這個版本通過財化法將近6千億少了之後你們會受到什麼影響?"},{"start":635.117,"end":652.616,"text":"就是中央政府在財政的對地方補助以及一些天災地變的因應跟一些其他的長期的或是或者是每年都發生的或是單次發生的一些緊急事件那我們在失去了靈活運用的能力其實5700之外的9000億包括"},{"start":657.519,"end":676.432,"text":"統籌分配稅款一般補助款跟計畫性補助款每年將近9000億那也是已經補助給地方為優先的所以如果再把這個變成一個齊頭式的水平式的分配的話那中央會失去這個能力很多的事情就沒有辦法在短時間內為地方做更多的努力"},{"start":677.213,"end":702.652,"text":"沒錯,尤其是我是高雄的立委啦,我們高雄過去也是如果沒有中央這樣子可以靈活運用以及注重地方橫平性注重城鄉發展這樣的精神的話其實我們地方還是非常可憐的喔,很多事情都做不了,大眾運輸也做不了然後這種從中央什麼育兒津貼租屋補助到社會住宅都做不了"},{"start":703.673,"end":726.951,"text":"所以中央統籌分配還是非常重要的我希望你們要堅守這個立場接下來在不管各縣市大家一起來協商的時候一定要注重城鄉發展跟地方的衡平好不好是的這個拜託要請院長堅守喔那我剛剛會提到這個現在有這麼多的乾坑法案是因為我們中央的財政紀律要嚴守"},{"start":728.012,"end":735.735,"text":"是的,我們不希望這些將中央財政削弱的這些很多的法案同時出現在國會裡面,那同時讓它變成一個立法來拘束中央。如果這樣的形成的話,剛剛說的中央這財政應變的能力就完全喪失了。"},{"start":756.624,"end":757.985,"text":"好必須要說現在立法院躺了非常多的財政的惡法為什麼說這些也是惡法呢因為"},{"start":777.294,"end":797.317,"text":"這些法案都一再的說他們要提高預算然後幫這邊加一點那邊加一點但是完全沒有考慮到財政的評估是完全毀壞了財政的紀律的就例如說現在昨天我們省的這個反年改啊就是好不容易我們把這個年改改了之後我們省了大概2800億"},{"start":798.798,"end":817.882,"text":"如果照他們的版本下去這2800億等於完全沒了嘛那再包括這個財化法的近6000億然後花東山法兩兆然後還有我們現在他們也要修老人福利法說65歲健保要免費然後大概也要花個400億這樣隨便叮叮總總加一點這邊開一點那邊開一點其實我們大水庫整個中央的財政馬上就垮掉了嘛"},{"start":823.903,"end":850.504,"text":"我不知道說我們現在中央對於現在立法院躺了這麼多的財政惡法,你們有什麼因應?請院長。而且過去改革的很多法案是為了國家的永續的發展跟生存,也為了讓軍人這個常任久用,常用久任的這個原則。所以如果今天改回去,那變成走回頭路。過去改革的精神完全被破壞了,那國家財政回復到改革之前的困難也不是大家所樂見的。"},{"start":851.485,"end":876.489,"text":"所以我們會逐一的來檢視現在在法案當中埋下對中央政府財政設計的這樣的法案。我們認為他也違反相關的法律。那我們必須在大院裡面或是在委員會裡面我們據理力爭充分的說明。我希望大家還是用中央地方充分合作的角度來看國家的財政會比較健全。"},{"start":876.854,"end":897.045,"text":"好 這個一定要拜託我們院裡所有每個部會都一定要堅守這個精神啦就是因為其實看得出來現在立法院有一群人真的就是在掏空國家不管是財政還是媒體上面還是所有的防線都不斷的在架空你們"},{"start":898.225,"end":924.662,"text":"那我認為這個對於國家的影響非常重、非常嚴重那最後一點時間我要講一下因為這個其實也是最近送進來我發現跟我們國家非常有關係的就是這個兩岸監督條例因為其實我們過去在太陽花在主張的就是說要來可以進行兩岸的政治協議之前都要有一個非常嚴格的把關機制所以我們也在兩岸條例裡面在民進黨時期把它收進去了就是五支三條可是現在民眾黨開了一個後門"},{"start":926.423,"end":927.704,"text":"就是把經濟跟政治協議分開"},{"start":959.636,"end":985.957,"text":"好 這個要拜託因為以目前民眾黨的版本下去就是在放寬我們兩岸監督條例的底線甚至是把四分之三出席四分之三同意這樣的門檻都降低了無疑就是在因應中共現在跟我們之間的協議的這個底線我認為是非常嚴重的拜託陸委會針對這件事情一定要做好把關"},{"start":988.823,"end":990.644,"text":"謝謝黃捷委員質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第40號廖先祥委員質詢。"}]}}}}