{"id":154082,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154082","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a71bea4e6fdc992f784a337f76c37b5ea49bfab79a0d782af956f0580495835635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"15:15:56 - 15:46:34","影片長度":"00:30:38","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T15:15:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T15:46:34+08:00","duration":1838,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":106,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（15時16分）主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：卓院長，本席只做一任基隆市議員，就直接來到立法院，但是從政的初衷跟之前做議員時是完全一樣的，我認為實踐我的政見遠比勝選來得重要，完成我對選民的承諾遠比單純的勝負來得有價值。本席在擔任基隆市議員的時候，曾經有個政見叫做老幼共托，也就是說，讓年長者跟小朋友能夠一起在同樣一個場域裡面，長時間的來做日照或者是托育，為什麼會這樣講？因為基隆市大部分的青壯勞動力都在臺北或雙北，而老人家如果一出事情或小朋友只要一生病，我們就必須花很多的時間來照顧他們，再加上65歲的年長者、一定要退休的年長者，遠比30年前50歲的勞動者來得年輕、來得有活力，對社會來得更有價值，單純放棄這個人力資源是很可惜的。但是這個老幼共托的政策在配套措施上面遇到一個很大的問題，不管是年長者還是7歲以下小朋友都會遇到，他們都希望能有護理人員的幫忙。我們也知道，臺灣的護理人員、護理師不足，這個問題其實已經不是臺灣獨有的現象，而是全球的先進國家都遇到這樣的狀況。護理的人力荒導致現在有很多醫院，尤其在區域醫院特別多，就是必須要鎖床，因為我們的護理師人力不足或者護理師過勞。我在這邊想請問院長，您知道臺灣到今年1月份領有護理師執照的人到底有多少人嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該接近19萬。"],["林委員沛祥：抱歉，是30萬，現在真正……"],["卓院長榮泰：真正在第一線的。"],["林委員沛祥：只有18萬6,000人，也就是說，只有六成的人領有護理師執照且願意執業，但是根據我們看到的資料，在2030年我們會需要將近24萬到26萬的護理師來照顧整個醫療系統，所以這樣一加一減的話，最近這幾年我們就必須要增加5萬5,000到7萬4,000的護理人力，才能滿足我們的需求。我也知道從去年開始，本來是一年兩次的護理師考試增加成為一年三次，而兩次護理師的考試，我也聽說的確蠻驚駭的，7月份考試過關的趴數是將近55%、60%，2月份的考試則是低於18%，我當初看到資料的時候也覺得蠻匪夷所思的，不過我更想要知道的是，因為現在每年報考護理學校的報考人數只有2,100，然後經過四年的學校教育，我們的考取率平均只有七成五，所以每年頂多加1,500人，全臺灣只加1,500個可以合格的護理師。變成是說，在衛福部「未來十年護產人力供需評估研究計畫」裡面指出，2024年我們將短缺1萬5,000人到2萬4,000人，換句話說，馬上護理師荒就要重來。去年9月28號，在第3873次會議中核備「護理人力政策整備12項策略計畫」，我想請問院長，你們到目前落實幾項？第一項是護理人員培育，其實說真的，一年只有2,100個新生，未來還會再下降，因為我們少子化，請問我們衛福部的具體政策會是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。衛福部從護理人才培育、護理人力的留任跟改善護理三大方向提出12項策略，有一件事情我必須向委員報告，十三年前當我們推動對全國護理師人員的獎勵，設立臺灣南丁格爾獎的時候，那時候第一線的護理從業人員大概只有十二、三萬，到現在經過十多年，已經進步增加到18萬、19萬，這個數目當然比我們現在預期的還要低，但是我覺得這個進展是有的，如果我們大家齊力推動，再加上衛福部的三大面向、12項策略能夠齊頭並進，我覺得我們可以在更短的時間內趕上或是接近需要的護理人員。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，為什麼我會提出來這個事情？其實在12項裡面，有些是我們正在進行的，我們團隊有去查資料，但是有些關鍵的地方我必須提出來，像第一個，在第三項裡面有提出三班護病比的現況資料蒐集，經過你們9個月的統計，醫學中心、區域醫院跟地區醫院有哪幾家醫院已經達到所謂1比6的護病比？"],["卓院長榮泰：達到的我們有獎勵的措施，請部長答復。"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們除了推動夜班護理人員獎勵，三班護病比達標的也有獎勵。"],["林委員沛祥：不是，我是說哪幾家醫院已經達到1比6的護病比，譬如包括醫學中心、區域醫院、地區醫院，你們9個月統計下來之後，哪些醫院合格的達到1比6？我只是想知道這個事情，部長可以回答我這個問題嗎？如果現在回答不出來，麻煩一下，因為我……"],["邱部長泰源：我們再查一下。"],["林委員沛祥：本席在這120天之內不知道有幾次，每一個部都跟我講會後兩個禮拜、一個月之內將資料送到我手上，但是都沒有，等一下我可能會針對這些部會來做進一步的詢問，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。我們即刻請衛福部從醫學中心、區域醫院跟地區醫院將護病比統計出來，如果有達到，我們依照獎勵，沒有達到的，我們要求它趕快補足，但是人力上還是要儘量去訓練。"],["林委員沛祥：同樣的，因為這12項都是當初在選舉的時候，你們執政團隊提出來的……"],["卓院長榮泰：要全面的補足，因為現在人力是有缺口的，我們儘量從人力的培育來增加、從考用的制度來精進。"],["林委員沛祥：我現在甚至再問，既然已經講到1比6護病比，有關三班護病比標準的訂定跟落實，請問部長，你們擬定好了嗎？什麼時候可以跟全國護理師講我們已經準備好了？我再問一次，這12項政策是你們這次的競選團隊針對全國護理師所提出來的，第四項、三班護病比標準的訂定跟落實，請問我們行政團隊擬定好了嗎？什麼時候可以給全國護理師這個福音呢？老實講，我不想先破題，因為當初這個事情是說2026年三班護病比要入法，這是在選前講的，選前滿口答應，選後馬上忘記，基本上我很不希望這樣去討論民生議題，用這樣聳動的話語去講事情，但是今天你們回答我的態度就讓我認為這件事情好像是真的，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，跟委員報告，我剛剛說過，人力的培育上我們要從考用的制度先精進，才有辦法多增加一些護理的從業人員，同時也希望剛剛提到30萬到18、19萬的這個數字能不能讓更多護理人員願意投入到第一線，所以設了很多對於待遇的優化、職場環境的友善等等，這個都持續在做，才能有辦法達到三班護病比。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝院長，我知道您想把這件事做好，因為這個不關意識形態、不關政治，是全然的民生議題。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["林委員沛祥：而且臺灣不管是基隆這個高齡化城市也好，還是臺灣已經邁入超高齡化國家，而且我們搞不好要跟全世界搶護士，這個可能也是我們會遇到的困境，我在這邊也順便……剛剛都講到待遇了嘛！老實講，出得起香蕉，只招得到猴子；出得起牛肉，才找得到獅子嘛！那我在這邊也必須要幫這些白班、小夜、急診的護理師講話，其實老實講，我前一陣子因為家人或是一些樁腳有事情，我去陪他們看一下病，甚至陪了一下病，在疫情之後，陪病是比較輕鬆的事情，但是當我們陪病去醫院的住院樓層跟急診室實地看看這些護理師的工作量，實在很可憐，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：很辛苦、很辛苦！"],["林委員沛祥：很可憐，而且前一陣子我記得有修法，就是針對護理師如果被病人打的時候要加強刑責，這我完全認同，但是就算是這樣做了事情，這樣的法修了之後，其實我們對護理師的尊重還是嚴重不足，尤其是當我們情緒不好的時候，他們工作量本來就大，那他們的待遇又不夠好的時候，還是回到剛剛那句話，我們一天到晚給香蕉，當然只請得到猴子嘛！甚至我們只給他花生，連猴子都不來吃啊！我這樣講的比喻是說，其實護理師投入這一行，他們都是想救人、想要幫人，想要希望臺灣健保每個人會被照顧得更好，但是巧婦無米難為炊，更何況基本待遇都不夠的時候，我這邊強烈要求請不要同工不同酬，也就是醫學中心、區域中心跟地區醫院，這方面我其實已經在基層聽到太多護理師跟我講這件事情了─同工不同酬，難道大夜班的累真的是體質上的累，如果是白班就不累嗎？白班的時候又要負責開刀，又要負責巡房，又要負責做一切的事情，又要負責打藥，這些全部都是白班的護理師需要去注重的，但是我們現在看到的政策就是，大夜班很可憐，小夜班很可憐，白班就很輕鬆，錯！我想部長應該對這件事最有體會。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長是第一線的臨床醫師出身，請他來說明一下。"],["邱部長泰源：非常謝謝委員對護理人員的關心，因為我也是臨床幾十年的醫師，跟護理人員一起團隊作戰，他們的辛苦不論是白班、夜班，都是非常非常的辛苦，每一個職場有它不同的繁重，其實我們有一直持續研議醫院白班繁重方面怎麼樣給他津貼，但是就這個繁重的部分正如剛剛委員所提到的，他說他繁重，他也說他繁重，所以在定義上面，我們會再做詳細的研議，我們最近也都有約相關的護理團體來討論，希望能夠訂出一個大家滿意的標準。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝部長，我再講一次，因為這是你們第八項裡面講的夜班費獎勵，我在這邊強烈要求，政策不能讓護理師之間產生對立，因為獎勵金應該都要有嘛，臺灣說真的，我們的護理師平均經常性薪資好像是4萬3,000，還是4萬4,000而已，其實以他的工時來講，我覺得可能跟最低工資差不多了，而且他們要提供的服務是專業性服務，其實這樣子非常的辛苦，難怪說我們有30萬人，我們剛剛在前面強調有30萬人拿到證照，卻只有18萬人、六成的人服務這個行業，這不是很可惜的事情嗎？我們花了4年的時間訓練出這些人，最後被人家說：這工作不好，我不要做。這個不是跟我們當初設立這些護理學校的本意完全相反嗎？我覺得這其實……我不想跟其他人說是國安危機，什麼都是國安危機，但是這個的確是我們很迫切需要解決的問題。","還有我想請問一下，在第十項跟第十一項還是有關三班護病比的達標，醫院應該有三班護病比的達標獎勵跟護理友善職場的獎勵，我想這都是當初12項裡面講的，請問部長或院長，獎勵方法是不是訂好了呢？那我們什麼時候看得到？什麼時候可以實施？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，優化護理職場的環境，落實三班護病比，這個其實在113年3月1號實施，未來我們有爭取到一個中長期的計畫，大概也通過預算，會來改善整個職場的環境。"],["林委員沛祥：好。我為什麼要去檢視這個部分？因為我剛剛有提過，本來2026年這些都應該要全面進去，但是我們沒有看到。在大選的時候，我們聽到三班護病比要入法，目前來講似乎就是慢慢、慢慢在做，現在聽到部長的回應、聽到院長的回應，我們知道像這樣的事情其實是有一步一步在做的，但是如果能夠的話，第一個，請你們加快；第二點，早點讓我們知道，這個遠比其他的事情更能夠讓病患跟護理師安心，我們希望多一點的護理師回到工作環境裡面，但是我們不跟他們講，其實你們的待遇會比未來好。甚至我會直接建議院長，將三班護病比直接納入所謂醫療機構的設置標準，這個醫療機構設置標準是醫療法授權給衛福部制定的法規命令，只要衛福部願意，就可以把三班護病比入法，而且不需要等待我們立法院曠日廢時的修法程序，基本上這樣比較能夠救急啦！我不知道院長您覺得怎麼樣呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，針對醫學中心區域醫院跟地區醫院三班護病比各有不同的數字比例，這個部分應該是會列入將來對醫院評鑑的重要依據。但是我說人力要將他補齊，我們才有辦法真的做到，否則各個醫院沒有辦法招募到足夠的護理人員，這個三班護病比就是一個空的目標，現在我們有進程、期程，就會將它一一地補齊。"],["林委員沛祥：如果講到醫療人力的話，其實某個程度上面，我想提醒院長一件事，就是全世界都在搶護士喔，其實我想院長，在您的高度上面，應該很清楚地知道美國在搶菲律賓的護士，然後我記得日本、韓國也有針對護士跟技術型勞工的部分，有相關規定說入籍多久之後，會給他們永久居留權，甚至給他們國籍。我知道這已經不單純是衛福部的事情，因為現在缺工的狀況是各行各業都有，但是我會在這邊提醒院長，您是行政院院長，您的任期其實我們不知道，我希望您能夠在您的任期之內，好好地跟整個行政團隊來考慮，用外籍勞工的這件事情，第一個，多元化；第二個，價值性；第三個，水準要夠；第四個，符合民情，這些方面我覺得已經不是衛福部的事情，不只是單單一個部的事情，而是跨部會的事情。院長如果自己不願意、沒辦法下來做，那是不是就請行政院秘書長，還是哪一個政務委員必須負責這一塊的業務？"],["卓院長榮泰：有關人力的補充，當然從國內培訓是最直接的，如果真的有需要，我們在經過跟社會的討論共識之後，是不是會採用更好的方式，除了部長之外，我想陳時中政委在這方面也應該是大家可信賴的對醫護關係、醫護政策的專家以及專業人士，我會請陳時中政委來負責辦好這件事情。"],["林委員沛祥：我們一直在講護理、護理、護理，就花掉我們十幾分鐘，可是其實藥師的部分也一樣嚴重，我記得藥師考試的合格率好像是不到百分之三十，對吧？變成是說我們現在在臺灣是每1萬人只有13位藥師服務，那我很好奇，請問為什麼醫院卻長年聘不滿藥師呢？我們比OECD國家的比率來得高，但是我們為什麼聘不滿藥師呢？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我們的藥師錄取比例的確是需要我們來做一個……"],["林委員沛祥：百分之二十幾，這個比人家三分球命中率還低啊！我知道這是絕對的專業，但是百分之二十幾……"],["邱部長泰源：其實各個專業人員的考試牽涉到的是那一個專業團體，尤其是老師們的堅持以及對他們專業的看法，所以有時候我們也常常溝通，有時候也……"],["林委員沛祥：甚至我直接講比較具體一點的，根據統計，臺大、臺北榮總這兩間龍頭醫學中心，加起來缺的藥師就已經超過50名，絕大多數醫院的藥師也都存在缺額問題，即使醫院用了簽約金、用了年薪漲調等方式都很難留得住藥師，流動率非常高。請問部長或請問院長，為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個應該跟他在工作所遇到的，大家對工作的尊敬、工作的環境應該有相當的關係啦！而且我們也希望在不降低整個業界水準的情況底下，我們來精進考試的制度，執照的取得應該顧慮到他過去在學校期間那麼辛苦的求學過程，是不是能夠用這樣的方式來讓更多的人經過學成之後投入到這個職場裡面。"],["林委員沛祥：整個醫療系統裡面，醫、護、藥三者缺一不可！雖然醫師夠，但是如果護士不夠，基本上醫師也難做事；就算醫師、護士夠，藥師不給藥，基本上治療也是很有限。變成現在臺灣的健保，我們一直講說我們的公衛是全球排名前幾名、我們的公共治療是全球排名很好的，但是現在遇到人員不足的時候，我們如果還是說OK、我們還是在自滿臺灣的健保全世界最好、臺灣的醫療全世界最有名，但是我們不去面對現在的問題的話，其實這個縮頭鴕鳥的方法不是可以解決事情的方法！而且某個程度上面，這不是單單一個衛福部部長可以解決，這可能是要院長級、要跨部會來去協助。我希望今天這20分鐘就這個議題上面的質詢，可以請院長跟整個行政團隊正視這方面的問題！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我也跟部長談過，我們應該朝向讓一些替代役能夠投入到護理的工作或者其他醫藥的工作裡面，人數能夠增加。"],["林委員沛祥：我希望會有專業的人來這方面，以實質上有價值、性價比較高、可以幫助到的方式解決現在的困境。","再來，請放一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝部長。","院長，我跟你是第二次見面，第一次見面是在基隆市的市場。"],["卓院長榮泰：市場。"],["林委員沛祥：對，我也記得，你那時候幫人家站臺，你就知道基隆其實這種庶民經濟是非常、非常盛行的。基隆市最大的市場叫做仁愛市場，目前來講，也快變得跟北投一樣，這種傳統二樓市場改建得非常成功，但尷尬的地方是，他們裡面500個攤商改建後37年沒有冷氣，不是說沒有冷氣，這是我這個禮拜又過去看，我實際在那邊走，而且十一點半人潮只到一半多一點，到十二點半的時候人更多，然後體感溫度就已經超過37度，而且越來越熱！","我知道關於傳統市場這方面的議題，嚴格講起來主管的是經濟部，老實說我在進國會之後，有時在看這些預算、重新再審視整個預算的時候，我也很好奇，經濟部產發署跟技術司兩個單位一年補助各項產業就高達350億。350億的話我曾經算過，如果一條基隆捷運加臺中捷運半條，這個是十幾年的工程，一年350億這個錢就夠了。我當然知道西瓜不能跟梨子比，我很清楚，不過同樣都是庶民經濟，剛剛我們從影片也看到，在禮拜六早上十一點半、其實人還沒有算很多的時候，我們就在整個傳統市場上面看到人擠人，如果哪一天院長來基隆，我帶你去那邊走走，你就知道了。"],["卓院長榮泰：好！"],["林委員沛祥：東西不錯吃，部長也一起來，其實我那時候還蠻希望黃仁勳、NVIDIA的老黃可以過來我們基隆吃吃東西，我們等一下會談到NVIDIA的事情。但是我也認為，現在基隆的仁愛市場、二樓市場已經變成一個觀光勝地、一個很多人都會去吃飯的地方，但是冷氣不足，剛剛看那個影片的時候你會發現，每一台電風扇都是開著，可是體感溫度還是降不下來，而且裡面的冷氣有的開、有的關，但是冷氣都出不來，老實講，這樣對用電其實蠻傷的，一個市場三十幾年來冷氣都沒有換過。","我說真的，我在這邊代表基隆、也代表基層，我是基隆的民意代表、我是基隆囡仔、我是基層出來的，所以我希望代表基隆、代表基層建請經濟部幫個忙，在這邊用我自己總質詢的時間。請問部長或院長，你們覺得這個三十幾年的大型傳統市場五百多個攤位都沒有冷氣可以吹，而且現在還沒有到最熱的時候，是不是可以建請行政團隊苦民所苦呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，十年來基隆的改變我想國人都看得到，它有很多地方過去比較不是那麼方便，現在都變成很潮流的地方、很明亮的地方，如果能用這種觀念來改變的話，我想基隆市民都是歡迎的，這個過程中，我相信基隆市政府應該扮演極重要的角色，未來我們是不是一同跟市政府來做理解跟一起努力，讓地方也能夠落實到基層的建設跟你說的市場的改建；至於中央可以補助的部分，我想我們在任何的補助跟任何的程序，都有它一定的規則跟程序。所以，我想經濟部能夠幫忙的也是從規則跟程序上面來做理解，但地方政府確實應該負起更多的責任。"],["林委員沛祥：部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你這個案子我們後來回去有檢討，我有責成我們相關單位，應該有跟你報告，我們現在是準備用節能減碳的方法來幫助市場改建，關於這個部分，大概所有的設備會由廠家來負責，最後的結果，比你的廠商繳的電費可能還更省。"],["林委員沛祥：好，我在這邊就已經講到省電的議題，其實郭部長你也辛苦了，最近整個政治氛圍跟您的專業、跟您過去的背景不太一樣，但是我在這邊也想請教郭部長，因為老實講，NVIDIA的黃仁勳剛剛離開，因為我個人是在看整個情況之後、在看著所有報導之後發現，當然他離開的時候講到電力是最大的缺口，老實說，我個人認為如果能夠把NVIDIA的R＆D center，就是把它的研發中心留在臺灣，不管留在哪個城市，我當然希望留在基隆市，但是不管留在哪個城市，對臺灣都是好事。","但是他自己第一時間也提出來電力的問題是一個很大的concern、很大的issue，因為電力充不充足是一回事，另外一方面是電力的價格也是一回事；第三個是如何創造這些電力的來源也是一回事。電力的充足不充足我想我們已經有太多同事談到了，如果說我們電力的價格比別人貴的話，我想以一個全球布局的公司來說，可能不太願意在高成本的情況之下來臺灣設廠，更何況還有電力的來源，剛剛應該是林岱樺有講到臺灣的電力97%是來自於煤炭跟天然氣，有一個問題如果是業界人都很關心，就是CBAM，如果我記得沒錯的話是明年嘛？明年歐盟就要對於臺灣的產品課碳稅，對吧？CBAM的問題變成是……我們臺灣現在的碳稅問題，什麼碳交易所、碳交易法、碳交易子法是不是已經成型，而且我們臺灣如何先把這個稅錢拿下來之後，讓我們的產品輸出到歐盟不用被課稅？","換句話說，如果NVIDIA的R＆D center來到臺灣，那它的產品最後面出去的時候反而要被課碳稅，他們會不會因為這樣而不願意進來？這我也很好奇，因為我們現在談到，我們當然希望NVIDIA過來，姑且不論國際政治因素，這可能是它第一、最大的風險；再來就是我們講的電力；再來還是講到會不會有所謂的颱風跟地震，颱風跟地震對NVIDIA來講等於是第三要去考慮的事情。第一是考慮到兩岸關係，再來考慮到電力問題，可是電力就不是只有電力充不充足，電力的來源還有電力的價格，而且我們也知道NVIDIA整個電力的使用率是高的，這不是我們現在隨便說1%、2%，因為你要做出R＆D的時候，R＆D不只用電多，而且可能會經過很多失敗，變成說我們用電不見得絕對會有產出，對吧？","所以我在這邊想請問經濟部長，另外一位部長也上來了，我想請問你們兩位，你們覺得NVIDIA現在……假設在我們現有的環境之下，要讓像NVIDIA這樣的國際大廠，再歡迎他們來一次、來這邊做考察，而且願意設廠，那我剛剛提到這幾個不定的因素、不定的風險該如何解決？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，NVIDIA要的還是綠電，所以我們現在是朝這個方向在努力，也就是說，我們發出來的綠電能夠滿足讓他們使用。"],["林委員沛祥：來得及嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是來得及。"],["林委員沛祥：來得及嗎？因為我老實講，綠電過去8年讓我們，不是只有本席，我想普遍的國人都因為綠電的發展速度而感到失望，所以未來如何能夠趕得起，讓國人符合期待，而且好像本來在明年就要到15%還是20%，不過現在卻還缺很多，依這個狀況，不要講明年，而是怎麼樣在2030、2035年可以趕上35%。","我順便還要問到另外一件事，我時間不夠多，這件事我剛剛順便講到說我要資料，結果要了快兩個月還沒有來，那時候國發會主委說，我們2030要全面電動巴士、2040要全面電動小客車跟摩托車，但是我們電從哪裡來？要滿足這些電動載具的電要從哪裡來？而且如果要滿足這些電動載具的話，請問要幾個發電廠？是火力發電廠，還是核能發電廠，還是綠能發電廠？要什麼時候建好？我們現在2050講的……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，國際大廠來臺灣設廠，很多都是需要綠電的……"],["林委員沛祥：對，如果是說……"],["卓院長榮泰：他們願意來設廠，都表示他們對我們綠電的潛能跟開發綠電的能力是有信心的……"],["林委員沛祥：院長，這就是說……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定要對他們負責。"],["林委員沛祥：這就是我要的這個資料，當初是龔明鑫，龔秘書長在不在？那時候他當國發會主委，我在他面前所質詢的……"],["卓院長榮泰：劉鏡清主委在。"],["林委員沛祥：對，所以這個請會後給我資料，兩個月了，資料還沒有到，我希望在一、兩個禮拜之內……"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我請國發會把相關資料能夠迅速補給委員。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員質詢，謝謝卓院長備詢。麻煩請行政單位把林委員所索取的資料如實送達，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第53位牛煦庭委員質詢。","對不起，牛委員對不起，打攪。","現在跟議場報告，在我們議場來參訪的是美國南達科他州的州議會訪問團，在我們樓上，我們掌聲歡迎，welcome 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\"start\": 1832.216, \"end\": 1832.396, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1832.396, \"end\": 1832.516, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1832.516, \"end\": 1832.756, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"禮\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 1832.756, \"end\": 1832.936, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 1832.936, \"end\": 1832.956, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"內\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:17,971 --> 00:00:44,652\n主席有請卓議員長。再請卓議員長備詢。林委員你有沒有站中間一點?我先問一下。對。好。林委員好。卓議員長。我本席是只做一任基隆市議員就直接來到立法院,但是從政的初衷跟之前做議員是完全一樣的。我認為說實踐我的政見,\n\n2\n00:00:47,284 --> 00:00:51,767\n本席曾經有個政見叫做老幼共託,也就是說讓年長者跟小朋友\n\n3\n00:01:06,561 --> 00:01:07,041\n所以說而且再加上說\n\n4\n00:01:31,620 --> 00:01:46,708\n現在的年長者,65歲的年長者,一定要退休的年長者,遠比30年前50歲的勞動者來得年輕,來得有活力,對社會來得有更有價值。單純讓他們放棄這個人力資源是很可惜的。\n\n5\n00:01:48,700 --> 00:02:04,029\n但是這個老幼共託的政策遇到一個很大的算是在配套措施上面遇到一個很大的問題就是說不管是年長者還是小朋友就是7歲以下的小朋友都會遇到都會有希望有這個護理人員的幫忙\n\n6\n00:02:05,029 --> 00:02:17,586\n那我們也知道臺灣的護理人員護理師的不足這問題其實已經不是在臺灣獨特有的現象而是在全球的先進國家都遇到這樣的狀況而\n\n7\n00:02:19,889 --> 00:02:20,149\n應該接近19萬吧?\n\n8\n00:02:44,931 --> 00:03:00,898\n抱歉是30萬那現在真正在第一線的只有18萬18.6萬18萬6千人那變成是說只有六成的人願意有護理師執照可是願意執業但是在2030年我們看到資料2030年我們會需要將近24到26萬的護理師來照顧我們整個醫療系統\n\n9\n00:03:07,601 --> 00:03:35,176\n所以說這樣一加一減的話在最近這幾年我們就必須要增加五萬五千到七萬四千的護理人力才能滿足我們的需求那我也知道從去年開始本來是一年兩次的護理師考試增加成為一年三次而兩次護理師的考試我也聽說這個也的確蠻驚駭的啦七月份的考試\n\n10\n00:03:36,317 --> 00:03:43,623\n不過我更想要知道的是說因為我們現在每年報考護理學校的報考人數只有2100然後經過4年的學校教育我們的考取率平均只有7乘5\n\n11\n00:04:00,518 --> 00:04:20,798\n那所以說每年頂多加1500人,全臺灣只加1500個可以合格的護理師。變成是說在衛福部的未來10年互產人力供需評估研究裡面指出,在2024年我們將短缺15000人到24000人,換句話說馬上護理師荒就要重來。\n\n12\n00:04:25,242 --> 00:04:39,372\n那在去年的9月28號在第3873次會議中合備護理人力政策準備12項策略計畫中,我想請問院長,你們到目前落實了幾項?\n\n13\n00:04:44,793 --> 00:04:55,079\n第一項是護理人員培育嘛那其實說真的一年只有2100個新生未來還會再下降因為我們少子化那想請問具體的我們衛福部的政策會是什麼呢\n\n14\n00:04:55,949 --> 00:05:15,772\n謝謝委員。為服從護理人才培育跟護理人力的留任跟改善護理三大方向,也提出了12項的策略。那有一次我必須向我跟委員報告,13年前當我們在推動對全國護理師人員的獎勵,設立台灣的南丁格爾獎的時候,那時候護理從業人第一線的大概只有12、3萬。\n\n15\n00:05:17,113 --> 00:05:36,373\n那到現在經過10多年他已經進步增加到18萬到19萬這個數目當然比我們現在預期的還要低但是我覺得這個進展是有的如果我們大家起力的推動再加上衛福部現在這個三大面向12項策略能夠齊頭並進我覺得我們可以在更短的時間內\n\n16\n00:05:37,592 --> 00:05:40,334\n趕上或接近需要的護理人員。\n\n17\n00:06:07,852 --> 00:06:35,864\n打到的我們有獎勵的措施,請部長答覆一下。我們除了推動夜班護理人員獎勵,三班護病比的達標的也有獎勵。不是,我是說哪幾家醫院已經達到1比6的護病比啦?那比如說包括醫學中心,包括區域醫院,包括地區醫院,你們9個月統計下來之後哪些醫院合格的達到1比6?我只是想知道這個事情。部長可以回答我這個問題嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:39,862 --> 00:06:56,039\n如果現在回答不出來,麻煩一下,因為我本席在這120天之內,我不知道幾次每一個部都跟我講會後兩個禮拜一個月之內資料到我手上,但是都沒有。等一下我可能會針對這些部會來去做進一步的評論,好不好?\n\n19\n00:07:01,205 --> 00:07:20,725\n區議院跟地區議院互併比能夠把它統計出來如果有達到的我們依照獎勵沒有達到的我們要求他趕快的補足同樣的因為這都是12項當初在選舉的時候我們提要全面的補足因為現在人力是有缺口的我們盡量從人力的培育上面來增加從考用的制度\n\n20\n00:07:20,965 --> 00:07:36,060\n我現在甚至在問那就是既然我已經講到1比6互併比的話那我想請問三班互併比標準的訂定跟落實請問部長你們一定好了嗎?什麼時候可以跟全國副理事講說我們已經準備好了?\n\n21\n00:07:38,308 --> 00:07:43,893\n我再問一次,第四項,這12項政策是我們這次競選團隊提出來,針對全國護理師所提出來的。第四項,三班互併標準的定定跟落實。請問,我們行政團隊擬定好了嗎?什麼時候可以給全國護理師這個福音呢?\n\n22\n00:08:05,541 --> 00:08:29,949\n因為老實講我不想先破題因為當初這個事情是說2026年三班戶病法要入法然後這是在選前講的選前滿口答應選後馬上忘記基本上我很不希望這樣去討論民生議題用這樣聳動的話語去講事情但是今天你們回答我的態度就讓我這樣認為這件事情好像是真的是嗎\n\n23\n00:08:30,930 --> 00:08:51,978\n我是跟委員報告我剛剛說過從人力的培育上面我們要從考用的制度先來精進才能有辦法多增加一些護理的從業人員同時也希望說剛剛30萬到18、9萬的這個數字能不能讓更多的護理人員願意投入到第一線所以設了很多對於他的待遇的優化職場環境的友善等等這個都持續在做\n\n24\n00:08:54,259 --> 00:09:15,809\n謝謝院長我知道您想把這件事做好因為這個不關意識形態不關政治是全然的民生議題而且台灣不管是基隆這個高齡化城市還是台灣已經邁入超高齡化國家而且我們搞不好要跟全世界想互視這個可能也是我們會遇到的困境那我在這邊也順便你剛剛都講到待遇了嘛\n\n25\n00:09:16,289 --> 00:09:36,103\n那老實講出得起猴子出得起香蕉子找得到猴子出得起牛肉才找得到獅子嘛那我在這邊也必須要跟我們這些白板小夜急診的護理師講話其實老實講我如果說我前一陣子那個因為家人還是一些卡有事情我就\n\n26\n00:09:36,463 --> 00:09:37,064\n很辛苦很辛苦\n\n27\n00:09:52,714 --> 00:10:21,484\n我們記得前一陣子我記得有修法就是針對說護理師如果被病人被病人用被病人打的時候這個要入這個要加上刑責這我完全認同但是就算是這樣做的事情這樣的這樣的法修了之後其實我們對護理師的尊重還是嚴重不足尤其是當我們情緒不好的時候他們工作量本來就大那他們的待遇又不夠好的時候那如果剛剛還是回到那句話我們一天到晚出我們一天到晚給香蕉當然請得到猴子嘛\n\n28\n00:10:21,724 --> 00:10:46,950\n甚至我們只給他花生,連猴子都不來吃啊。我這樣講的比喻是說,其實我們護理師,他們所屬這一行,他們都是想救人,想要幫人,想要希望說這個護理,我們台灣這個健保,我們每個人被照顧到會照顧得更好。但是巧婦無米難為垂,更何況基本待遇都不夠的時候,我這邊強烈要求就是說,請不要同工不同酬。\n\n29\n00:10:47,950 --> 00:11:02,238\n也就是醫學中心跟區域中心跟地區醫院這方面我其實已經在基層聽到太多護理師跟我講這件事情了同工不同酬甚至說難道真的大夜班的累是體質上的累\n\n30\n00:11:03,078 --> 00:11:19,604\n但是,如果是白班就不累嗎?白班的時候你又要負責開刀,你要負責巡訪,你要負責做一切的事情,要負責打藥。這些全部都是白班的護理師需要去注重的。但是,我們現在那時候看到的政策就是大夜班很可憐,小夜班很可憐,白班就很輕鬆。錯!\n\n31\n00:11:21,817 --> 00:11:43,803\n我想部長應該對這件事最有體會。非常謝謝委員對護理人員的關心。因為我也是臨床幾十年的醫師,跟護理人員是一起團隊作戰。他們的辛苦,其實不論是白班、夜班,都是非常的辛苦。白班每一個職場有他不同的\n\n32\n00:11:44,543 --> 00:12:09,890\n反縱所以我們在研議這個其實我們有一直持續研議醫院白班反縱方面怎麼樣來給他津貼但是這個反縱的部分就剛剛聽政務委員你所說所提到的一馬公一馬公一反縱一馬公一反縱所以在定義上面我們會再做詳細的研議跟我們最近也都約相關的婦女團體來討論希望能夠定出一個大家滿意的一個標準\n\n33\n00:12:11,270 --> 00:12:38,296\n謝謝部長因為我再講一次這是你們第8項裡面講的夜班費的獎勵那我在這邊搶業了求政策不能讓護理師之間產生對立因為獎勵金應該都要有嘛我們台灣說真的我們的護理師平均平均那個經常性薪資好像是4萬3千還是4萬4千而已其實以他的工時來講可能連最低我覺得跟最低工時差不多了其實而且他們要做\n\n34\n00:12:39,216 --> 00:12:39,236\n﹚廣告\n\n35\n00:13:02,794 --> 00:13:11,267\n這個我覺得這個其實我不想跟其他人人家說什麼時候是國安危機什麼時候是國安危機但是這個的確是很迫切我們需要解決的問題\n\n36\n00:13:12,625 --> 00:13:37,156\n那這個...對不起還有我想請問一下在第10項跟第11項還是有關三班互併比的達標醫院應該有個三班互併比的達標的獎勵跟護理友善職場的獎勵我想這都是當初那個12項裡面講的那請問部長或請問院長獎勵方法是不是訂好了呢?那我們什麼時候看得到什麼時候可以實施?\n\n37\n00:13:39,886 --> 00:14:02,315\n我們優化護理職場的環境,落實三班互併比,這個其實在113年3月1日要實施。未來我們有爭取到有一個中長期的計畫,大概這個也通過預算,會來改善整個職場的一個環境。\n\n38\n00:14:07,677 --> 00:14:21,302\n我為什麼要去把這個檢視這邊因為我剛剛有提過說本來2026這都應該全面要進去但是我們沒有看到說我們其實在選舉在大選的時候我們聽到說三班互併筆要入法\n\n39\n00:14:22,362 --> 00:14:47,959\n目前來講我們似乎就是慢慢慢慢在做我現在聽到部長的回應我聽到院長的回應我們就知道說像這樣的事情其實是有是一步一步在做的但是請你們如果第一個如果能夠的話加快第二點讓早點讓我們知道這個遠比其他的事情更能夠讓病患跟護理師安心我們希望多一點的護理師回來到工作環境裡面但是我們不跟他們講說其實你們待遇會比未來好\n\n40\n00:14:48,399 --> 00:15:12,586\n甚至說我會直接建議院長將三班護病表直接納入所謂醫療機構的設置標準這個醫療機構設置標準不是是所謂的是醫療法授權給衛福部制定的法規命令只要衛福部願意就可以把這個三班護病表入法而且不需要等待我們立法院曠日廢時的修法程序基本上這樣比較能夠救急啦\n\n41\n00:15:13,547 --> 00:15:38,681\n我不知道院長您覺得怎麼樣呢?針對醫學中心區醫院跟地區醫院三班互併比各有不同的數字的比例那這個部分應該是會列入將來對醫院評鑑重要的依據但是我說人力要將它補齊我們才有辦法真的做到否則各個醫院沒有辦法招募到這個足夠的護理人員這個三班互併比就是一個空的目標那現在我們有進程期程就會將它一一的補齊\n\n42\n00:15:40,024 --> 00:16:07,368\n我如果講到人力醫療的話其實某個程度上面全世界我想提醒院長一件事就是全世界都在搶護士喔全世界其實我想院長在您的高度上面應該很清楚的知道說美國在搶菲律賓的護士然後我記得日本、韓國也在針對護士有去說你護士跟企術型勞工來去做一定程度說如果你入籍多久之後我們會給你永久居留權甚至給你國籍\n\n43\n00:16:07,828 --> 00:16:25,036\n那我知道這個已經不是單單純純衛福部的事情那因為現在缺工的事情缺工的狀況是各行各業都有但是我會在這邊提醒院長您是行政院院長那您的任期我們其實我們不知道我希望說您能夠在您的任期之內好好的跟整個行政團隊來考慮說\n\n44\n00:16:26,477 --> 00:16:27,677\n人力的補充當然從國內培訓這個是最直接的\n\n45\n00:16:55,441 --> 00:17:20,283\n那如果有真的需要我們在經過跟社會的討論共識之後是不是會採用更好的方式那除了部長之外我想陳時中政委在這方面也應該就是大家可以信賴的一個對醫護關係醫護政策的一個專家跟這個專業的人士那我也請陳時中政委來負責來辦好這件事情其實這件事情我們一直在講護理護理護理就花到我們十幾分鐘可是其實藥師也一樣嚴重\n\n46\n00:17:21,980 --> 00:17:48,282\n其實藥師我記得藥師的合格率藥師考試合格率好像是百分之三十不到對吧那變成是說我們現在在臺灣是每一萬人就有十三才只有每一萬人只有十三位藥師服務那其實我想很好奇就請問說為什麼醫院卻常年聘不滿藥師呢我們比一般人那個一般的OECD國家來的高但是我們為什麼聘不滿藥師呢部長\n\n47\n00:17:51,435 --> 00:17:53,897\n二十幾趴這個比人家三分九還低啊?\n\n48\n00:18:02,895 --> 00:18:07,878\n其實這個專業人員的考試牽涉到是說那個專業團體尤其是老師們他們的一個堅持對他們專業的一個看法所以有時候我們常常溝通甚至我這邊在講啦就是我直接講比較具體一點的根據統計臺大臺北榮總這兩間龍頭醫學中心加起來缺的藥師就已經超過50名\n\n49\n00:18:32,915 --> 00:18:33,516\n請問部長或請問院長為什麼\n\n50\n00:18:46,708 --> 00:19:05,610\n這應該跟他這個在工作所遇到的對工作的大家對工作的尊敬跟他工作的環境應該有相當的關係我們也希望說在不降低整個業界水準的情況底下我們來精進考試的制度執照的取得應該顧慮到他過去在學校期間那麼辛苦的求學過程\n\n51\n00:19:06,030 --> 00:19:21,159\n是不是能夠用這樣的方式來讓更多的人他能夠經過學程之後投入到這個職場裡面?整個醫療系統裡面醫護要三者缺一不可變成是雖然你醫師夠但是如果你護士不夠基本上醫師也難做事那你就算\n\n52\n00:19:21,579 --> 00:19:43,435\n一是護士夠,要是不給藥,基本上治療也是很有限。問題是說我們現在台灣的健保,我們一直講說我們的公衛是在全球排名前幾名,我們的公共治療是全球排名很好的,但是我們自己難道現在遇到人員不足的時候,我們如果還是說OK,我們還是在自滿說我們台灣的健保全世界最好,台灣的醫療全世界最有名,但是我們不去面對現在的問題的話,其實這個\n\n53\n00:19:45,496 --> 00:19:47,337\n謝謝委員,我也跟部長談過我們應該朝向讓一些替代役能夠投入到護理的工作或者其他的這個\n\n54\n00:20:10,796 --> 00:20:10,936\n請放一下影片。\n\n55\n00:20:32,049 --> 00:20:48,439\n謝謝部長。院長我跟你是第二次見面,第一次見面是在基隆市的市場,我也會記得你那時候幫人家站臺。但是這個市場是其實你就知道基隆其實這種庶民經濟是非常非常的盛行的。\n\n56\n00:20:49,246 --> 00:21:08,989\n那基隆市的最大的市場叫做仁愛市場那目前來講也是快變成跟北投一樣這種傳統二樓市場改建的非常成功但是尷尬的地方是呢他們裡面500個攤商改建後37年然後沒有冷氣不是說沒有冷氣這個是我這個禮拜六過去看\n\n57\n00:21:09,910 --> 00:21:20,329\n我實際在那邊走而且11點半還沒有人潮只到一半多一點到12點半只會人更多然後就已經體感就超過37度而且越來越熱\n\n58\n00:21:21,223 --> 00:21:44,197\n那這個時候說真的我知道傳統市場這方面的議題應該講起來是我們經濟部那經濟部的話老實說我在剛進國會的時候我也知道說我對這個老實講有時候在看這些預算的時候重新再去做審視整個預算的時候我也很好奇就是說經濟部產發署跟技術師兩個單位一年補助各項產業就高達350億\n\n59\n00:21:50,700 --> 00:22:01,778\n三百五十億的話我曾經算過如果一條基隆的這個基隆捷運加台中捷運的半條一年這個是十幾年的工程三百五十億一年\n\n60\n00:22:03,474 --> 00:22:24,528\n這個十分錢就夠了,那我當然是這樣不能西瓜不能跟梨子比我很清楚,不過同樣是說都是庶民經濟,剛剛我們看的影片的時候也看到說在禮拜六的早上11點半,那其實還沒有算很多的時候,我們就在整個傳統市場上面看到人擠人,整個整個,基本上如果說部長或哪一天院長如果來齊龍,我帶你去那邊走走你就知道了。\n\n61\n00:22:25,549 --> 00:22:26,990\n林沛祥林沛祥林沛祥林沛祥林沛祥\n\n62\n00:22:52,051 --> 00:23:04,387\n可是那個體溫那個體感溫度還是降不下來而且裡面的冷氣每一台基本上有的開有的關但是冷氣都輸不來那我們一方面來講用電老實講這樣對用電其實蠻傷的一台30幾一個市場30幾年來冷氣都沒有換過\n\n63\n00:23:10,555 --> 00:23:39,354\n那我說真的我想說在這邊也代表基隆也代表我們整個也代表基隆代表基層我是基隆的民意代表我是基隆的嬰兒我是基站出來的所以我會希望代表基隆代表基層現請我們經濟部幫個忙在這邊用我自己總質詢的時間那請問部長或院長你們覺得這個忙30幾年的一個大型傳統市場500多個攤位都沒有冷氣可以吹而且現在還沒有到最熱的時候那是不是可以見請我們行政團隊\n\n64\n00:23:40,637 --> 00:23:41,543\n苦民所苦呢?\n\n65\n00:23:43,265 --> 00:24:10,595\n各位委員報告十年來基隆的改變我想國人都看得到它有很多地方過去比較不是那麼方便現在都變成很潮流的地方很明亮的地方如果能用這種觀念來改變的話我想對基隆的市民來看都是歡迎的那這個過程我相信基隆市政府應該扮演極重要的角色未來我們是不是一同跟市政府來做理解跟一起努力讓地方也能夠\n\n66\n00:24:11,295 --> 00:24:11,315\n部長\n\n67\n00:24:35,129 --> 00:24:49,819\n報告委員,你這個案子我們後來有回去,我們有檢討,我有責成我們相關單位,應該有跟你報告。那我們現在是準備用這個節能減碳的方法來幫助這個市場的改建。\n\n68\n00:25:00,663 --> 00:25:18,776\n那這個部分我想大概所有的這個設備我們會由廠家來負責。那大概市場你們大概最後的結果可能你的廠商他們繳的電費可能還更省。\n\n69\n00:25:19,735 --> 00:25:47,708\n好那我其實在這邊就已經講到省電省電的議題那其實郭部長您也辛苦了啦最近這個整個政治氛圍跟您的專業跟您的過去背景不太一樣但是我也在這邊想請教郭部長因為老實講這個NVIDIA剛剛離開黃仁勳剛剛離開那他離開那我個人因為我個人是在看整個整個情況之後在說看了所有報導之後發現說當然他離開的時候講到電力是最大的缺口\n\n70\n00:25:48,789 --> 00:26:03,147\n老實說這個我個人認為是如果能夠把NVIDIA的這個R&DCenter就是把它的研發中心留在臺灣不管留在哪個城市我當然希望留在基隆市但是不管留在哪個城市對於臺灣都是好事\n\n71\n00:26:04,451 --> 00:26:18,458\n但是他自己也第一時間提出來了,電力的問題是很大的,是一個很大的concern,一個很大的issue。因為電力衝突中途是一回事。另外一方面是電力的價格也是一回事。\n\n72\n00:26:19,315 --> 00:26:37,331\n第三個是電力如何創造這些電力的來源也是一回事。電力的充足不充足我想已經有我們太多同事已經談到了。電力的價格因為如果說我們電力的價格比別人貴的話我想以一個全球佈局的公司可能不太願意在高成本的情況之下來臺灣設廠。\n\n73\n00:26:39,478 --> 00:26:55,274\n更何況還有電力的來源,剛剛應該是林代化委員有講到說臺灣的電力97%是來自於煤炭跟天然氣。那有一個問題其實如果是業界人都很關心就是CBAN。\n\n74\n00:26:56,161 --> 00:27:24,124\n就是明...如果記得沒錯的話是明年嘛明年歐盟就要對於臺灣客...對於臺灣的產品那個客...客與探稅對吧那CBAN的問題呢變成是說臺灣我們現在的探稅問題什麼現在探交易所探交易法探交易...執法是不是已經成型而且如何說我們臺灣先把這個稅探...這個稅錢先把它拿下來之後所以我們的產品到歐盟不用被...不用去客稅換句話說那如果R&DCenter的NVIDIA的R&DCenter來到臺灣那...\n\n75\n00:27:26,025 --> 00:27:44,025\n他的產品最後面出去的時候反而要被課碳稅,他們會不會因為這樣而不去做誘引進來,這我也很好奇。因為我們現在談到,我們當然是要NVIDIA過來,姑且不論國際政治因素這是他可能第一最大的風險。再來就是我們講的電力,再來還是講到說會不會有所謂的颱風跟地震。\n\n76\n00:27:47,829 --> 00:28:09,130\n臺風跟地震對NVIDIA來講是想要去考慮的事情。第一考慮到兩岸關係嘛。再來考慮到電力問題。可是電力就不是只有電力充不充足。電力的來源還有電力的價格。而且我們也知道NVIDIA它的整個電力的使用率是高的。這不是說只是我們現在隨便說1%、2%。因為你要去做出R&D的時候。\n\n77\n00:28:10,251 --> 00:28:10,291\n﹚林沛\n\n78\n00:28:29,887 --> 00:28:34,788\n報告委員這個NVIDIA他要的還是綠電所以我們現在是朝這個方向在努力也就是說我們發出來的綠電能夠滿足讓他們使用\n\n79\n00:28:59,486 --> 00:29:19,416\n來得及嗎?應該是來得及。來得及嗎?因為我老實講綠電過去8年讓我們不是只有本席,我想普遍的國人都因為綠電的發展的速度感到失望。所以說未來的話如何能夠趕得及讓國人符合期待,而且是好像本來在明年就要到15%或15%還20%,不過現在\n\n80\n00:29:22,398 --> 00:29:22,798\n但是我們電從哪裡來?\n\n81\n00:29:50,612 --> 00:29:53,215\n要滿足這些電動載具的電從哪裡來?而且如果要滿足這些電動載具的話請問要幾個發電廠?是火力發電廠還是核能發電還是綠能發電廠?要什麼時候建好?\n\n82\n00:30:05,316 --> 00:30:07,638\n國際大廠來臺灣設廠很多都是需要綠電。他們願意來設廠就表示他對我們綠電的潛能跟開發綠電的能力他們是有信心的。我們一定要對他們負責。這就是說我要這個資料當初是廣明星廣明署長在不在?\n\n83\n00:30:25,031 --> 00:30:32,956\n那時候他當國發會主委我在他面前在質詢的所以說這個資料會後給我資料兩個月了資料還沒有到我希望在一兩個禮拜之內\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n17971\t44652\t主席有請卓議員長。再請卓議員長備詢。林委員你有沒有站中間一點?我先問一下。對。好。林委員好。卓議員長。我本席是只做一任基隆市議員就直接來到立法院,但是從政的初衷跟之前做議員是完全一樣的。我認為說實踐我的政見,\n47284\t51767\t本席曾經有個政見叫做老幼共託,也就是說讓年長者跟小朋友\n66561\t67041\t所以說而且再加上說\n91620\t106708\t現在的年長者,65歲的年長者,一定要退休的年長者,遠比30年前50歲的勞動者來得年輕,來得有活力,對社會來得有更有價值。單純讓他們放棄這個人力資源是很可惜的。\n108700\t124029\t但是這個老幼共託的政策遇到一個很大的算是在配套措施上面遇到一個很大的問題就是說不管是年長者還是小朋友就是7歲以下的小朋友都會遇到都會有希望有這個護理人員的幫忙\n125029\t137586\t那我們也知道臺灣的護理人員護理師的不足這問題其實已經不是在臺灣獨特有的現象而是在全球的先進國家都遇到這樣的狀況而\n139889\t140149\t應該接近19萬吧?\n164931\t180898\t抱歉是30萬那現在真正在第一線的只有18萬18.6萬18萬6千人那變成是說只有六成的人願意有護理師執照可是願意執業但是在2030年我們看到資料2030年我們會需要將近24到26萬的護理師來照顧我們整個醫療系統\n187601\t215176\t所以說這樣一加一減的話在最近這幾年我們就必須要增加五萬五千到七萬四千的護理人力才能滿足我們的需求那我也知道從去年開始本來是一年兩次的護理師考試增加成為一年三次而兩次護理師的考試我也聽說這個也的確蠻驚駭的啦七月份的考試\n216317\t223623\t不過我更想要知道的是說因為我們現在每年報考護理學校的報考人數只有2100然後經過4年的學校教育我們的考取率平均只有7乘5\n240518\t260798\t那所以說每年頂多加1500人,全臺灣只加1500個可以合格的護理師。變成是說在衛福部的未來10年互產人力供需評估研究裡面指出,在2024年我們將短缺15000人到24000人,換句話說馬上護理師荒就要重來。\n265242\t279372\t那在去年的9月28號在第3873次會議中合備護理人力政策準備12項策略計畫中,我想請問院長,你們到目前落實了幾項?\n284793\t295079\t第一項是護理人員培育嘛那其實說真的一年只有2100個新生未來還會再下降因為我們少子化那想請問具體的我們衛福部的政策會是什麼呢\n295949\t315772\t謝謝委員。為服從護理人才培育跟護理人力的留任跟改善護理三大方向,也提出了12項的策略。那有一次我必須向我跟委員報告,13年前當我們在推動對全國護理師人員的獎勵,設立台灣的南丁格爾獎的時候,那時候護理從業人第一線的大概只有12、3萬。\n317113\t336373\t那到現在經過10多年他已經進步增加到18萬到19萬這個數目當然比我們現在預期的還要低但是我覺得這個進展是有的如果我們大家起力的推動再加上衛福部現在這個三大面向12項策略能夠齊頭並進我覺得我們可以在更短的時間內\n337592\t340334\t趕上或接近需要的護理人員。\n367852\t395864\t打到的我們有獎勵的措施,請部長答覆一下。我們除了推動夜班護理人員獎勵,三班護病比的達標的也有獎勵。不是,我是說哪幾家醫院已經達到1比6的護病比啦?那比如說包括醫學中心,包括區域醫院,包括地區醫院,你們9個月統計下來之後哪些醫院合格的達到1比6?我只是想知道這個事情。部長可以回答我這個問題嗎?\n399862\t416039\t如果現在回答不出來,麻煩一下,因為我本席在這120天之內,我不知道幾次每一個部都跟我講會後兩個禮拜一個月之內資料到我手上,但是都沒有。等一下我可能會針對這些部會來去做進一步的評論,好不好?\n421205\t440725\t區議院跟地區議院互併比能夠把它統計出來如果有達到的我們依照獎勵沒有達到的我們要求他趕快的補足同樣的因為這都是12項當初在選舉的時候我們提要全面的補足因為現在人力是有缺口的我們盡量從人力的培育上面來增加從考用的制度\n440965\t456060\t我現在甚至在問那就是既然我已經講到1比6互併比的話那我想請問三班互併比標準的訂定跟落實請問部長你們一定好了嗎?什麼時候可以跟全國副理事講說我們已經準備好了?\n458308\t463893\t我再問一次,第四項,這12項政策是我們這次競選團隊提出來,針對全國護理師所提出來的。第四項,三班互併標準的定定跟落實。請問,我們行政團隊擬定好了嗎?什麼時候可以給全國護理師這個福音呢?\n485541\t509949\t因為老實講我不想先破題因為當初這個事情是說2026年三班戶病法要入法然後這是在選前講的選前滿口答應選後馬上忘記基本上我很不希望這樣去討論民生議題用這樣聳動的話語去講事情但是今天你們回答我的態度就讓我這樣認為這件事情好像是真的是嗎\n510930\t531978\t我是跟委員報告我剛剛說過從人力的培育上面我們要從考用的制度先來精進才能有辦法多增加一些護理的從業人員同時也希望說剛剛30萬到18、9萬的這個數字能不能讓更多的護理人員願意投入到第一線所以設了很多對於他的待遇的優化職場環境的友善等等這個都持續在做\n534259\t555809\t謝謝院長我知道您想把這件事做好因為這個不關意識形態不關政治是全然的民生議題而且台灣不管是基隆這個高齡化城市還是台灣已經邁入超高齡化國家而且我們搞不好要跟全世界想互視這個可能也是我們會遇到的困境那我在這邊也順便你剛剛都講到待遇了嘛\n556289\t576103\t那老實講出得起猴子出得起香蕉子找得到猴子出得起牛肉才找得到獅子嘛那我在這邊也必須要跟我們這些白板小夜急診的護理師講話其實老實講我如果說我前一陣子那個因為家人還是一些卡有事情我就\n576463\t577064\t很辛苦很辛苦\n592714\t621484\t我們記得前一陣子我記得有修法就是針對說護理師如果被病人被病人用被病人打的時候這個要入這個要加上刑責這我完全認同但是就算是這樣做的事情這樣的這樣的法修了之後其實我們對護理師的尊重還是嚴重不足尤其是當我們情緒不好的時候他們工作量本來就大那他們的待遇又不夠好的時候那如果剛剛還是回到那句話我們一天到晚出我們一天到晚給香蕉當然請得到猴子嘛\n621724\t646950\t甚至我們只給他花生,連猴子都不來吃啊。我這樣講的比喻是說,其實我們護理師,他們所屬這一行,他們都是想救人,想要幫人,想要希望說這個護理,我們台灣這個健保,我們每個人被照顧到會照顧得更好。但是巧婦無米難為垂,更何況基本待遇都不夠的時候,我這邊強烈要求就是說,請不要同工不同酬。\n647950\t662238\t也就是醫學中心跟區域中心跟地區醫院這方面我其實已經在基層聽到太多護理師跟我講這件事情了同工不同酬甚至說難道真的大夜班的累是體質上的累\n663078\t679604\t但是,如果是白班就不累嗎?白班的時候你又要負責開刀,你要負責巡訪,你要負責做一切的事情,要負責打藥。這些全部都是白班的護理師需要去注重的。但是,我們現在那時候看到的政策就是大夜班很可憐,小夜班很可憐,白班就很輕鬆。錯!\n681817\t703803\t我想部長應該對這件事最有體會。非常謝謝委員對護理人員的關心。因為我也是臨床幾十年的醫師,跟護理人員是一起團隊作戰。他們的辛苦,其實不論是白班、夜班,都是非常的辛苦。白班每一個職場有他不同的\n704543\t729890\t反縱所以我們在研議這個其實我們有一直持續研議醫院白班反縱方面怎麼樣來給他津貼但是這個反縱的部分就剛剛聽政務委員你所說所提到的一馬公一馬公一反縱一馬公一反縱所以在定義上面我們會再做詳細的研議跟我們最近也都約相關的婦女團體來討論希望能夠定出一個大家滿意的一個標準\n731270\t758296\t謝謝部長因為我再講一次這是你們第8項裡面講的夜班費的獎勵那我在這邊搶業了求政策不能讓護理師之間產生對立因為獎勵金應該都要有嘛我們台灣說真的我們的護理師平均平均那個經常性薪資好像是4萬3千還是4萬4千而已其實以他的工時來講可能連最低我覺得跟最低工時差不多了其實而且他們要做\n759216\t759236\t﹚廣告\n782794\t791267\t這個我覺得這個其實我不想跟其他人人家說什麼時候是國安危機什麼時候是國安危機但是這個的確是很迫切我們需要解決的問題\n792625\t817156\t那這個...對不起還有我想請問一下在第10項跟第11項還是有關三班互併比的達標醫院應該有個三班互併比的達標的獎勵跟護理友善職場的獎勵我想這都是當初那個12項裡面講的那請問部長或請問院長獎勵方法是不是訂好了呢?那我們什麼時候看得到什麼時候可以實施?\n819886\t842315\t我們優化護理職場的環境,落實三班互併比,這個其實在113年3月1日要實施。未來我們有爭取到有一個中長期的計畫,大概這個也通過預算,會來改善整個職場的一個環境。\n847677\t861302\t我為什麼要去把這個檢視這邊因為我剛剛有提過說本來2026這都應該全面要進去但是我們沒有看到說我們其實在選舉在大選的時候我們聽到說三班互併筆要入法\n862362\t887959\t目前來講我們似乎就是慢慢慢慢在做我現在聽到部長的回應我聽到院長的回應我們就知道說像這樣的事情其實是有是一步一步在做的但是請你們如果第一個如果能夠的話加快第二點讓早點讓我們知道這個遠比其他的事情更能夠讓病患跟護理師安心我們希望多一點的護理師回來到工作環境裡面但是我們不跟他們講說其實你們待遇會比未來好\n888399\t912586\t甚至說我會直接建議院長將三班護病表直接納入所謂醫療機構的設置標準這個醫療機構設置標準不是是所謂的是醫療法授權給衛福部制定的法規命令只要衛福部願意就可以把這個三班護病表入法而且不需要等待我們立法院曠日廢時的修法程序基本上這樣比較能夠救急啦\n913547\t938681\t我不知道院長您覺得怎麼樣呢?針對醫學中心區醫院跟地區醫院三班互併比各有不同的數字的比例那這個部分應該是會列入將來對醫院評鑑重要的依據但是我說人力要將它補齊我們才有辦法真的做到否則各個醫院沒有辦法招募到這個足夠的護理人員這個三班互併比就是一個空的目標那現在我們有進程期程就會將它一一的補齊\n940024\t967368\t我如果講到人力醫療的話其實某個程度上面全世界我想提醒院長一件事就是全世界都在搶護士喔全世界其實我想院長在您的高度上面應該很清楚的知道說美國在搶菲律賓的護士然後我記得日本、韓國也在針對護士有去說你護士跟企術型勞工來去做一定程度說如果你入籍多久之後我們會給你永久居留權甚至給你國籍\n967828\t985036\t那我知道這個已經不是單單純純衛福部的事情那因為現在缺工的事情缺工的狀況是各行各業都有但是我會在這邊提醒院長您是行政院院長那您的任期我們其實我們不知道我希望說您能夠在您的任期之內好好的跟整個行政團隊來考慮說\n986477\t987677\t人力的補充當然從國內培訓這個是最直接的\n1015441\t1040283\t那如果有真的需要我們在經過跟社會的討論共識之後是不是會採用更好的方式那除了部長之外我想陳時中政委在這方面也應該就是大家可以信賴的一個對醫護關係醫護政策的一個專家跟這個專業的人士那我也請陳時中政委來負責來辦好這件事情其實這件事情我們一直在講護理護理護理就花到我們十幾分鐘可是其實藥師也一樣嚴重\n1041980\t1068282\t其實藥師我記得藥師的合格率藥師考試合格率好像是百分之三十不到對吧那變成是說我們現在在臺灣是每一萬人就有十三才只有每一萬人只有十三位藥師服務那其實我想很好奇就請問說為什麼醫院卻常年聘不滿藥師呢我們比一般人那個一般的OECD國家來的高但是我們為什麼聘不滿藥師呢部長\n1071435\t1073897\t二十幾趴這個比人家三分九還低啊?\n1082895\t1087878\t其實這個專業人員的考試牽涉到是說那個專業團體尤其是老師們他們的一個堅持對他們專業的一個看法所以有時候我們常常溝通甚至我這邊在講啦就是我直接講比較具體一點的根據統計臺大臺北榮總這兩間龍頭醫學中心加起來缺的藥師就已經超過50名\n1112915\t1113516\t請問部長或請問院長為什麼\n1126708\t1145610\t這應該跟他這個在工作所遇到的對工作的大家對工作的尊敬跟他工作的環境應該有相當的關係我們也希望說在不降低整個業界水準的情況底下我們來精進考試的制度執照的取得應該顧慮到他過去在學校期間那麼辛苦的求學過程\n1146030\t1161159\t是不是能夠用這樣的方式來讓更多的人他能夠經過學程之後投入到這個職場裡面?整個醫療系統裡面醫護要三者缺一不可變成是雖然你醫師夠但是如果你護士不夠基本上醫師也難做事那你就算\n1161579\t1183435\t一是護士夠,要是不給藥,基本上治療也是很有限。問題是說我們現在台灣的健保,我們一直講說我們的公衛是在全球排名前幾名,我們的公共治療是全球排名很好的,但是我們自己難道現在遇到人員不足的時候,我們如果還是說OK,我們還是在自滿說我們台灣的健保全世界最好,台灣的醫療全世界最有名,但是我們不去面對現在的問題的話,其實這個\n1185496\t1187337\t謝謝委員,我也跟部長談過我們應該朝向讓一些替代役能夠投入到護理的工作或者其他的這個\n1210796\t1210936\t請放一下影片。\n1232049\t1248439\t謝謝部長。院長我跟你是第二次見面,第一次見面是在基隆市的市場,我也會記得你那時候幫人家站臺。但是這個市場是其實你就知道基隆其實這種庶民經濟是非常非常的盛行的。\n1249246\t1268989\t那基隆市的最大的市場叫做仁愛市場那目前來講也是快變成跟北投一樣這種傳統二樓市場改建的非常成功但是尷尬的地方是呢他們裡面500個攤商改建後37年然後沒有冷氣不是說沒有冷氣這個是我這個禮拜六過去看\n1269910\t1280329\t我實際在那邊走而且11點半還沒有人潮只到一半多一點到12點半只會人更多然後就已經體感就超過37度而且越來越熱\n1281223\t1304197\t那這個時候說真的我知道傳統市場這方面的議題應該講起來是我們經濟部那經濟部的話老實說我在剛進國會的時候我也知道說我對這個老實講有時候在看這些預算的時候重新再去做審視整個預算的時候我也很好奇就是說經濟部產發署跟技術師兩個單位一年補助各項產業就高達350億\n1310700\t1321778\t三百五十億的話我曾經算過如果一條基隆的這個基隆捷運加台中捷運的半條一年這個是十幾年的工程三百五十億一年\n1323474\t1344528\t這個十分錢就夠了,那我當然是這樣不能西瓜不能跟梨子比我很清楚,不過同樣是說都是庶民經濟,剛剛我們看的影片的時候也看到說在禮拜六的早上11點半,那其實還沒有算很多的時候,我們就在整個傳統市場上面看到人擠人,整個整個,基本上如果說部長或哪一天院長如果來齊龍,我帶你去那邊走走你就知道了。\n1345549\t1346990\t林沛祥 林沛祥 林沛祥 林沛祥 林沛祥\n1372051\t1384387\t可是那個體溫那個體感溫度還是降不下來而且裡面的冷氣每一台基本上有的開有的關但是冷氣都輸不來那我們一方面來講用電老實講這樣對用電其實蠻傷的一台30幾一個市場30幾年來冷氣都沒有換過\n1390555\t1419354\t那我說真的我想說在這邊也代表基隆也代表我們整個也代表基隆代表基層我是基隆的民意代表我是基隆的嬰兒我是基站出來的所以我會希望代表基隆代表基層現請我們經濟部幫個忙在這邊用我自己總質詢的時間那請問部長或院長你們覺得這個忙30幾年的一個大型傳統市場500多個攤位都沒有冷氣可以吹而且現在還沒有到最熱的時候那是不是可以見請我們行政團隊\n1420637\t1421543\t苦民所苦呢?\n1423265\t1450595\t各位委員報告十年來基隆的改變我想國人都看得到它有很多地方過去比較不是那麼方便現在都變成很潮流的地方很明亮的地方如果能用這種觀念來改變的話我想對基隆的市民來看都是歡迎的那這個過程我相信基隆市政府應該扮演極重要的角色未來我們是不是一同跟市政府來做理解跟一起努力讓地方也能夠\n1451295\t1451315\t部長\n1475129\t1489819\t報告委員,你這個案子我們後來有回去,我們有檢討,我有責成我們相關單位,應該有跟你報告。那我們現在是準備用這個節能減碳的方法來幫助這個市場的改建。\n1500663\t1518776\t那這個部分我想大概所有的這個設備我們會由廠家來負責。那大概市場你們大概最後的結果可能你的廠商他們繳的電費可能還更省。\n1519735\t1547708\t好那我其實在這邊就已經講到省電省電的議題那其實郭部長您也辛苦了啦最近這個整個政治氛圍跟您的專業跟您的過去背景不太一樣但是我也在這邊想請教郭部長因為老實講這個NVIDIA剛剛離開黃仁勳剛剛離開那他離開那我個人因為我個人是在看整個整個情況之後在說看了所有報導之後發現說當然他離開的時候講到電力是最大的缺口\n1548789\t1563147\t老實說這個我個人認為是如果能夠把NVIDIA的這個R&D Center就是把它的研發中心留在臺灣不管留在哪個城市我當然希望留在基隆市但是不管留在哪個城市對於臺灣都是好事\n1564451\t1578458\t但是他自己也第一時間提出來了,電力的問題是很大的,是一個很大的concern,一個很大的issue。因為電力衝突中途是一回事。另外一方面是電力的價格也是一回事。\n1579315\t1597331\t第三個是電力如何創造這些電力的來源也是一回事。電力的充足不充足我想已經有我們太多同事已經談到了。電力的價格因為如果說我們電力的價格比別人貴的話我想以一個全球佈局的公司可能不太願意在高成本的情況之下來臺灣設廠。\n1599478\t1615274\t更何況還有電力的來源,剛剛應該是林代化委員有講到說臺灣的電力97%是來自於煤炭跟天然氣。那有一個問題其實如果是業界人都很關心就是CBAN。\n1616161\t1644124\t就是明...如果記得沒錯的話是明年嘛明年歐盟就要對於臺灣客...對於臺灣的產品那個客...客與探稅對吧那CBAN的問題呢變成是說臺灣我們現在的探稅問題什麼現在探交易所探交易法探交易...執法是不是已經成型而且如何說我們臺灣先把這個稅探...這個稅錢先把它拿下來之後所以我們的產品到歐盟不用被...不用去客稅換句話說那如果R&D Center的NVIDIA的R&D Center來到臺灣那...\n1646025\t1664025\t他的產品最後面出去的時候反而要被課碳稅,他們會不會因為這樣而不去做誘引進來,這我也很好奇。因為我們現在談到,我們當然是要NVIDIA過來,姑且不論國際政治因素這是他可能第一最大的風險。再來就是我們講的電力,再來還是講到說會不會有所謂的颱風跟地震。\n1667829\t1689130\t臺風跟地震對NVIDIA來講是想要去考慮的事情。第一考慮到兩岸關係嘛。再來考慮到電力問題。可是電力就不是只有電力充不充足。電力的來源還有電力的價格。而且我們也知道NVIDIA它的整個電力的使用率是高的。這不是說只是我們現在隨便說1%、2%。因為你要去做出R&D的時候。\n1690251\t1690291\t﹚林沛\n1709887\t1714788\t報告委員這個NVIDIA他要的還是綠電所以我們現在是朝這個方向在努力也就是說我們發出來的綠電能夠滿足讓他們使用\n1739486\t1759416\t來得及嗎?應該是來得及。來得及嗎?因為我老實講綠電過去8年讓我們不是只有本席,我想普遍的國人都因為綠電的發展的速度感到失望。所以說未來的話如何能夠趕得及讓國人符合期待,而且是好像本來在明年就要到15%或15%還20%,不過現在\n1762398\t1762798\t但是我們電從哪裡來?\n1790612\t1793215\t要滿足這些電動載具的電從哪裡來?而且如果要滿足這些電動載具的話請問要幾個發電廠?是火力發電廠還是核能發電還是綠能發電廠?要什麼時候建好?\n1805316\t1807638\t國際大廠來臺灣設廠很多都是需要綠電。他們願意來設廠就表示他對我們綠電的潛能跟開發綠電的能力他們是有信心的。我們一定要對他們負責。這就是說我要這個資料當初是廣明星廣明署長在不在?\n1825031\t1832956\t那時候他當國發會主委我在他面前在質詢的所以說這個資料會後給我資料兩個月了資料還沒有到我希望在一兩個禮拜之內\n","txt":"主席有請卓議員長。再請卓議員長備詢。林委員你有沒有站中間一點?我先問一下。對。好。林委員好。卓議員長。我本席是只做一任基隆市議員就直接來到立法院,但是從政的初衷跟之前做議員是完全一樣的。我認為說實踐我的政見,\n本席曾經有個政見叫做老幼共託,也就是說讓年長者跟小朋友\n所以說而且再加上說\n現在的年長者,65歲的年長者,一定要退休的年長者,遠比30年前50歲的勞動者來得年輕,來得有活力,對社會來得有更有價值。單純讓他們放棄這個人力資源是很可惜的。\n但是這個老幼共託的政策遇到一個很大的算是在配套措施上面遇到一個很大的問題就是說不管是年長者還是小朋友就是7歲以下的小朋友都會遇到都會有希望有這個護理人員的幫忙\n那我們也知道臺灣的護理人員護理師的不足這問題其實已經不是在臺灣獨特有的現象而是在全球的先進國家都遇到這樣的狀況而\n應該接近19萬吧?\n抱歉是30萬那現在真正在第一線的只有18萬18.6萬18萬6千人那變成是說只有六成的人願意有護理師執照可是願意執業但是在2030年我們看到資料2030年我們會需要將近24到26萬的護理師來照顧我們整個醫療系統\n所以說這樣一加一減的話在最近這幾年我們就必須要增加五萬五千到七萬四千的護理人力才能滿足我們的需求那我也知道從去年開始本來是一年兩次的護理師考試增加成為一年三次而兩次護理師的考試我也聽說這個也的確蠻驚駭的啦七月份的考試\n不過我更想要知道的是說因為我們現在每年報考護理學校的報考人數只有2100然後經過4年的學校教育我們的考取率平均只有7乘5\n那所以說每年頂多加1500人,全臺灣只加1500個可以合格的護理師。變成是說在衛福部的未來10年互產人力供需評估研究裡面指出,在2024年我們將短缺15000人到24000人,換句話說馬上護理師荒就要重來。\n那在去年的9月28號在第3873次會議中合備護理人力政策準備12項策略計畫中,我想請問院長,你們到目前落實了幾項?\n第一項是護理人員培育嘛那其實說真的一年只有2100個新生未來還會再下降因為我們少子化那想請問具體的我們衛福部的政策會是什麼呢\n謝謝委員。為服從護理人才培育跟護理人力的留任跟改善護理三大方向,也提出了12項的策略。那有一次我必須向我跟委員報告,13年前當我們在推動對全國護理師人員的獎勵,設立台灣的南丁格爾獎的時候,那時候護理從業人第一線的大概只有12、3萬。\n那到現在經過10多年他已經進步增加到18萬到19萬這個數目當然比我們現在預期的還要低但是我覺得這個進展是有的如果我們大家起力的推動再加上衛福部現在這個三大面向12項策略能夠齊頭並進我覺得我們可以在更短的時間內\n趕上或接近需要的護理人員。\n打到的我們有獎勵的措施,請部長答覆一下。我們除了推動夜班護理人員獎勵,三班護病比的達標的也有獎勵。不是,我是說哪幾家醫院已經達到1比6的護病比啦?那比如說包括醫學中心,包括區域醫院,包括地區醫院,你們9個月統計下來之後哪些醫院合格的達到1比6?我只是想知道這個事情。部長可以回答我這個問題嗎?\n如果現在回答不出來,麻煩一下,因為我本席在這120天之內,我不知道幾次每一個部都跟我講會後兩個禮拜一個月之內資料到我手上,但是都沒有。等一下我可能會針對這些部會來去做進一步的評論,好不好?\n區議院跟地區議院互併比能夠把它統計出來如果有達到的我們依照獎勵沒有達到的我們要求他趕快的補足同樣的因為這都是12項當初在選舉的時候我們提要全面的補足因為現在人力是有缺口的我們盡量從人力的培育上面來增加從考用的制度\n我現在甚至在問那就是既然我已經講到1比6互併比的話那我想請問三班互併比標準的訂定跟落實請問部長你們一定好了嗎?什麼時候可以跟全國副理事講說我們已經準備好了?\n我再問一次,第四項,這12項政策是我們這次競選團隊提出來,針對全國護理師所提出來的。第四項,三班互併標準的定定跟落實。請問,我們行政團隊擬定好了嗎?什麼時候可以給全國護理師這個福音呢?\n因為老實講我不想先破題因為當初這個事情是說2026年三班戶病法要入法然後這是在選前講的選前滿口答應選後馬上忘記基本上我很不希望這樣去討論民生議題用這樣聳動的話語去講事情但是今天你們回答我的態度就讓我這樣認為這件事情好像是真的是嗎\n我是跟委員報告我剛剛說過從人力的培育上面我們要從考用的制度先來精進才能有辦法多增加一些護理的從業人員同時也希望說剛剛30萬到18、9萬的這個數字能不能讓更多的護理人員願意投入到第一線所以設了很多對於他的待遇的優化職場環境的友善等等這個都持續在做\n謝謝院長我知道您想把這件事做好因為這個不關意識形態不關政治是全然的民生議題而且台灣不管是基隆這個高齡化城市還是台灣已經邁入超高齡化國家而且我們搞不好要跟全世界想互視這個可能也是我們會遇到的困境那我在這邊也順便你剛剛都講到待遇了嘛\n那老實講出得起猴子出得起香蕉子找得到猴子出得起牛肉才找得到獅子嘛那我在這邊也必須要跟我們這些白板小夜急診的護理師講話其實老實講我如果說我前一陣子那個因為家人還是一些卡有事情我就\n很辛苦很辛苦\n我們記得前一陣子我記得有修法就是針對說護理師如果被病人被病人用被病人打的時候這個要入這個要加上刑責這我完全認同但是就算是這樣做的事情這樣的這樣的法修了之後其實我們對護理師的尊重還是嚴重不足尤其是當我們情緒不好的時候他們工作量本來就大那他們的待遇又不夠好的時候那如果剛剛還是回到那句話我們一天到晚出我們一天到晚給香蕉當然請得到猴子嘛\n甚至我們只給他花生,連猴子都不來吃啊。我這樣講的比喻是說,其實我們護理師,他們所屬這一行,他們都是想救人,想要幫人,想要希望說這個護理,我們台灣這個健保,我們每個人被照顧到會照顧得更好。但是巧婦無米難為垂,更何況基本待遇都不夠的時候,我這邊強烈要求就是說,請不要同工不同酬。\n也就是醫學中心跟區域中心跟地區醫院這方面我其實已經在基層聽到太多護理師跟我講這件事情了同工不同酬甚至說難道真的大夜班的累是體質上的累\n但是,如果是白班就不累嗎?白班的時候你又要負責開刀,你要負責巡訪,你要負責做一切的事情,要負責打藥。這些全部都是白班的護理師需要去注重的。但是,我們現在那時候看到的政策就是大夜班很可憐,小夜班很可憐,白班就很輕鬆。錯!\n我想部長應該對這件事最有體會。非常謝謝委員對護理人員的關心。因為我也是臨床幾十年的醫師,跟護理人員是一起團隊作戰。他們的辛苦,其實不論是白班、夜班,都是非常的辛苦。白班每一個職場有他不同的\n反縱所以我們在研議這個其實我們有一直持續研議醫院白班反縱方面怎麼樣來給他津貼但是這個反縱的部分就剛剛聽政務委員你所說所提到的一馬公一馬公一反縱一馬公一反縱所以在定義上面我們會再做詳細的研議跟我們最近也都約相關的婦女團體來討論希望能夠定出一個大家滿意的一個標準\n謝謝部長因為我再講一次這是你們第8項裡面講的夜班費的獎勵那我在這邊搶業了求政策不能讓護理師之間產生對立因為獎勵金應該都要有嘛我們台灣說真的我們的護理師平均平均那個經常性薪資好像是4萬3千還是4萬4千而已其實以他的工時來講可能連最低我覺得跟最低工時差不多了其實而且他們要做\n﹚廣告\n這個我覺得這個其實我不想跟其他人人家說什麼時候是國安危機什麼時候是國安危機但是這個的確是很迫切我們需要解決的問題\n那這個...對不起還有我想請問一下在第10項跟第11項還是有關三班互併比的達標醫院應該有個三班互併比的達標的獎勵跟護理友善職場的獎勵我想這都是當初那個12項裡面講的那請問部長或請問院長獎勵方法是不是訂好了呢?那我們什麼時候看得到什麼時候可以實施?\n我們優化護理職場的環境,落實三班互併比,這個其實在113年3月1日要實施。未來我們有爭取到有一個中長期的計畫,大概這個也通過預算,會來改善整個職場的一個環境。\n我為什麼要去把這個檢視這邊因為我剛剛有提過說本來2026這都應該全面要進去但是我們沒有看到說我們其實在選舉在大選的時候我們聽到說三班互併筆要入法\n目前來講我們似乎就是慢慢慢慢在做我現在聽到部長的回應我聽到院長的回應我們就知道說像這樣的事情其實是有是一步一步在做的但是請你們如果第一個如果能夠的話加快第二點讓早點讓我們知道這個遠比其他的事情更能夠讓病患跟護理師安心我們希望多一點的護理師回來到工作環境裡面但是我們不跟他們講說其實你們待遇會比未來好\n甚至說我會直接建議院長將三班護病表直接納入所謂醫療機構的設置標準這個醫療機構設置標準不是是所謂的是醫療法授權給衛福部制定的法規命令只要衛福部願意就可以把這個三班護病表入法而且不需要等待我們立法院曠日廢時的修法程序基本上這樣比較能夠救急啦\n我不知道院長您覺得怎麼樣呢?針對醫學中心區醫院跟地區醫院三班互併比各有不同的數字的比例那這個部分應該是會列入將來對醫院評鑑重要的依據但是我說人力要將它補齊我們才有辦法真的做到否則各個醫院沒有辦法招募到這個足夠的護理人員這個三班互併比就是一個空的目標那現在我們有進程期程就會將它一一的補齊\n我如果講到人力醫療的話其實某個程度上面全世界我想提醒院長一件事就是全世界都在搶護士喔全世界其實我想院長在您的高度上面應該很清楚的知道說美國在搶菲律賓的護士然後我記得日本、韓國也在針對護士有去說你護士跟企術型勞工來去做一定程度說如果你入籍多久之後我們會給你永久居留權甚至給你國籍\n那我知道這個已經不是單單純純衛福部的事情那因為現在缺工的事情缺工的狀況是各行各業都有但是我會在這邊提醒院長您是行政院院長那您的任期我們其實我們不知道我希望說您能夠在您的任期之內好好的跟整個行政團隊來考慮說\n人力的補充當然從國內培訓這個是最直接的\n那如果有真的需要我們在經過跟社會的討論共識之後是不是會採用更好的方式那除了部長之外我想陳時中政委在這方面也應該就是大家可以信賴的一個對醫護關係醫護政策的一個專家跟這個專業的人士那我也請陳時中政委來負責來辦好這件事情其實這件事情我們一直在講護理護理護理就花到我們十幾分鐘可是其實藥師也一樣嚴重\n其實藥師我記得藥師的合格率藥師考試合格率好像是百分之三十不到對吧那變成是說我們現在在臺灣是每一萬人就有十三才只有每一萬人只有十三位藥師服務那其實我想很好奇就請問說為什麼醫院卻常年聘不滿藥師呢我們比一般人那個一般的OECD國家來的高但是我們為什麼聘不滿藥師呢部長\n二十幾趴這個比人家三分九還低啊?\n其實這個專業人員的考試牽涉到是說那個專業團體尤其是老師們他們的一個堅持對他們專業的一個看法所以有時候我們常常溝通甚至我這邊在講啦就是我直接講比較具體一點的根據統計臺大臺北榮總這兩間龍頭醫學中心加起來缺的藥師就已經超過50名\n請問部長或請問院長為什麼\n這應該跟他這個在工作所遇到的對工作的大家對工作的尊敬跟他工作的環境應該有相當的關係我們也希望說在不降低整個業界水準的情況底下我們來精進考試的制度執照的取得應該顧慮到他過去在學校期間那麼辛苦的求學過程\n是不是能夠用這樣的方式來讓更多的人他能夠經過學程之後投入到這個職場裡面?整個醫療系統裡面醫護要三者缺一不可變成是雖然你醫師夠但是如果你護士不夠基本上醫師也難做事那你就算\n一是護士夠,要是不給藥,基本上治療也是很有限。問題是說我們現在台灣的健保,我們一直講說我們的公衛是在全球排名前幾名,我們的公共治療是全球排名很好的,但是我們自己難道現在遇到人員不足的時候,我們如果還是說OK,我們還是在自滿說我們台灣的健保全世界最好,台灣的醫療全世界最有名,但是我們不去面對現在的問題的話,其實這個\n謝謝委員,我也跟部長談過我們應該朝向讓一些替代役能夠投入到護理的工作或者其他的這個\n請放一下影片。\n謝謝部長。院長我跟你是第二次見面,第一次見面是在基隆市的市場,我也會記得你那時候幫人家站臺。但是這個市場是其實你就知道基隆其實這種庶民經濟是非常非常的盛行的。\n那基隆市的最大的市場叫做仁愛市場那目前來講也是快變成跟北投一樣這種傳統二樓市場改建的非常成功但是尷尬的地方是呢他們裡面500個攤商改建後37年然後沒有冷氣不是說沒有冷氣這個是我這個禮拜六過去看\n我實際在那邊走而且11點半還沒有人潮只到一半多一點到12點半只會人更多然後就已經體感就超過37度而且越來越熱\n那這個時候說真的我知道傳統市場這方面的議題應該講起來是我們經濟部那經濟部的話老實說我在剛進國會的時候我也知道說我對這個老實講有時候在看這些預算的時候重新再去做審視整個預算的時候我也很好奇就是說經濟部產發署跟技術師兩個單位一年補助各項產業就高達350億\n三百五十億的話我曾經算過如果一條基隆的這個基隆捷運加台中捷運的半條一年這個是十幾年的工程三百五十億一年\n這個十分錢就夠了,那我當然是這樣不能西瓜不能跟梨子比我很清楚,不過同樣是說都是庶民經濟,剛剛我們看的影片的時候也看到說在禮拜六的早上11點半,那其實還沒有算很多的時候,我們就在整個傳統市場上面看到人擠人,整個整個,基本上如果說部長或哪一天院長如果來齊龍,我帶你去那邊走走你就知道了。\n林沛祥 林沛祥 林沛祥 林沛祥 林沛祥\n可是那個體溫那個體感溫度還是降不下來而且裡面的冷氣每一台基本上有的開有的關但是冷氣都輸不來那我們一方面來講用電老實講這樣對用電其實蠻傷的一台30幾一個市場30幾年來冷氣都沒有換過\n那我說真的我想說在這邊也代表基隆也代表我們整個也代表基隆代表基層我是基隆的民意代表我是基隆的嬰兒我是基站出來的所以我會希望代表基隆代表基層現請我們經濟部幫個忙在這邊用我自己總質詢的時間那請問部長或院長你們覺得這個忙30幾年的一個大型傳統市場500多個攤位都沒有冷氣可以吹而且現在還沒有到最熱的時候那是不是可以見請我們行政團隊\n苦民所苦呢?\n各位委員報告十年來基隆的改變我想國人都看得到它有很多地方過去比較不是那麼方便現在都變成很潮流的地方很明亮的地方如果能用這種觀念來改變的話我想對基隆的市民來看都是歡迎的那這個過程我相信基隆市政府應該扮演極重要的角色未來我們是不是一同跟市政府來做理解跟一起努力讓地方也能夠\n部長\n報告委員,你這個案子我們後來有回去,我們有檢討,我有責成我們相關單位,應該有跟你報告。那我們現在是準備用這個節能減碳的方法來幫助這個市場的改建。\n那這個部分我想大概所有的這個設備我們會由廠家來負責。那大概市場你們大概最後的結果可能你的廠商他們繳的電費可能還更省。\n好那我其實在這邊就已經講到省電省電的議題那其實郭部長您也辛苦了啦最近這個整個政治氛圍跟您的專業跟您的過去背景不太一樣但是我也在這邊想請教郭部長因為老實講這個NVIDIA剛剛離開黃仁勳剛剛離開那他離開那我個人因為我個人是在看整個整個情況之後在說看了所有報導之後發現說當然他離開的時候講到電力是最大的缺口\n老實說這個我個人認為是如果能夠把NVIDIA的這個R&D Center就是把它的研發中心留在臺灣不管留在哪個城市我當然希望留在基隆市但是不管留在哪個城市對於臺灣都是好事\n但是他自己也第一時間提出來了,電力的問題是很大的,是一個很大的concern,一個很大的issue。因為電力衝突中途是一回事。另外一方面是電力的價格也是一回事。\n第三個是電力如何創造這些電力的來源也是一回事。電力的充足不充足我想已經有我們太多同事已經談到了。電力的價格因為如果說我們電力的價格比別人貴的話我想以一個全球佈局的公司可能不太願意在高成本的情況之下來臺灣設廠。\n更何況還有電力的來源,剛剛應該是林代化委員有講到說臺灣的電力97%是來自於煤炭跟天然氣。那有一個問題其實如果是業界人都很關心就是CBAN。\n就是明...如果記得沒錯的話是明年嘛明年歐盟就要對於臺灣客...對於臺灣的產品那個客...客與探稅對吧那CBAN的問題呢變成是說臺灣我們現在的探稅問題什麼現在探交易所探交易法探交易...執法是不是已經成型而且如何說我們臺灣先把這個稅探...這個稅錢先把它拿下來之後所以我們的產品到歐盟不用被...不用去客稅換句話說那如果R&D Center的NVIDIA的R&D Center來到臺灣那...\n他的產品最後面出去的時候反而要被課碳稅,他們會不會因為這樣而不去做誘引進來,這我也很好奇。因為我們現在談到,我們當然是要NVIDIA過來,姑且不論國際政治因素這是他可能第一最大的風險。再來就是我們講的電力,再來還是講到說會不會有所謂的颱風跟地震。\n臺風跟地震對NVIDIA來講是想要去考慮的事情。第一考慮到兩岸關係嘛。再來考慮到電力問題。可是電力就不是只有電力充不充足。電力的來源還有電力的價格。而且我們也知道NVIDIA它的整個電力的使用率是高的。這不是說只是我們現在隨便說1%、2%。因為你要去做出R&D的時候。\n﹚林沛\n報告委員這個NVIDIA他要的還是綠電所以我們現在是朝這個方向在努力也就是說我們發出來的綠電能夠滿足讓他們使用\n來得及嗎?應該是來得及。來得及嗎?因為我老實講綠電過去8年讓我們不是只有本席,我想普遍的國人都因為綠電的發展的速度感到失望。所以說未來的話如何能夠趕得及讓國人符合期待,而且是好像本來在明年就要到15%或15%還20%,不過現在\n但是我們電從哪裡來?\n要滿足這些電動載具的電從哪裡來?而且如果要滿足這些電動載具的話請問要幾個發電廠?是火力發電廠還是核能發電還是綠能發電廠?要什麼時候建好?\n國際大廠來臺灣設廠很多都是需要綠電。他們願意來設廠就表示他對我們綠電的潛能跟開發綠電的能力他們是有信心的。我們一定要對他們負責。這就是說我要這個資料當初是廣明星廣明署長在不在?\n那時候他當國發會主委我在他面前在質詢的所以說這個資料會後給我資料兩個月了資料還沒有到我希望在一兩個禮拜之內\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:17.971 --> 00:44.652\n主席有請卓議員長。再請卓議員長備詢。林委員你有沒有站中間一點?我先問一下。對。好。林委員好。卓議員長。我本席是只做一任基隆市議員就直接來到立法院,但是從政的初衷跟之前做議員是完全一樣的。我認為說實踐我的政見,\n\n00:47.284 --> 00:51.767\n本席曾經有個政見叫做老幼共託,也就是說讓年長者跟小朋友\n\n01:06.561 --> 01:07.041\n所以說而且再加上說\n\n01:31.620 --> 01:46.708\n現在的年長者,65歲的年長者,一定要退休的年長者,遠比30年前50歲的勞動者來得年輕,來得有活力,對社會來得有更有價值。單純讓他們放棄這個人力資源是很可惜的。\n\n01:48.700 --> 02:04.029\n但是這個老幼共託的政策遇到一個很大的算是在配套措施上面遇到一個很大的問題就是說不管是年長者還是小朋友就是7歲以下的小朋友都會遇到都會有希望有這個護理人員的幫忙\n\n02:05.029 --> 02:17.586\n那我們也知道臺灣的護理人員護理師的不足這問題其實已經不是在臺灣獨特有的現象而是在全球的先進國家都遇到這樣的狀況而\n\n02:19.889 --> 02:20.149\n應該接近19萬吧?\n\n02:44.931 --> 03:00.898\n抱歉是30萬那現在真正在第一線的只有18萬18.6萬18萬6千人那變成是說只有六成的人願意有護理師執照可是願意執業但是在2030年我們看到資料2030年我們會需要將近24到26萬的護理師來照顧我們整個醫療系統\n\n03:07.601 --> 03:35.176\n所以說這樣一加一減的話在最近這幾年我們就必須要增加五萬五千到七萬四千的護理人力才能滿足我們的需求那我也知道從去年開始本來是一年兩次的護理師考試增加成為一年三次而兩次護理師的考試我也聽說這個也的確蠻驚駭的啦七月份的考試\n\n03:36.317 --> 03:43.623\n不過我更想要知道的是說因為我們現在每年報考護理學校的報考人數只有2100然後經過4年的學校教育我們的考取率平均只有7乘5\n\n04:00.518 --> 04:20.798\n那所以說每年頂多加1500人,全臺灣只加1500個可以合格的護理師。變成是說在衛福部的未來10年互產人力供需評估研究裡面指出,在2024年我們將短缺15000人到24000人,換句話說馬上護理師荒就要重來。\n\n04:25.242 --> 04:39.372\n那在去年的9月28號在第3873次會議中合備護理人力政策準備12項策略計畫中,我想請問院長,你們到目前落實了幾項?\n\n04:44.793 --> 04:55.079\n第一項是護理人員培育嘛那其實說真的一年只有2100個新生未來還會再下降因為我們少子化那想請問具體的我們衛福部的政策會是什麼呢\n\n04:55.949 --> 05:15.772\n謝謝委員。為服從護理人才培育跟護理人力的留任跟改善護理三大方向,也提出了12項的策略。那有一次我必須向我跟委員報告,13年前當我們在推動對全國護理師人員的獎勵,設立台灣的南丁格爾獎的時候,那時候護理從業人第一線的大概只有12、3萬。\n\n05:17.113 --> 05:36.373\n那到現在經過10多年他已經進步增加到18萬到19萬這個數目當然比我們現在預期的還要低但是我覺得這個進展是有的如果我們大家起力的推動再加上衛福部現在這個三大面向12項策略能夠齊頭並進我覺得我們可以在更短的時間內\n\n05:37.592 --> 05:40.334\n趕上或接近需要的護理人員。\n\n06:07.852 --> 06:35.864\n打到的我們有獎勵的措施,請部長答覆一下。我們除了推動夜班護理人員獎勵,三班護病比的達標的也有獎勵。不是,我是說哪幾家醫院已經達到1比6的護病比啦?那比如說包括醫學中心,包括區域醫院,包括地區醫院,你們9個月統計下來之後哪些醫院合格的達到1比6?我只是想知道這個事情。部長可以回答我這個問題嗎?\n\n06:39.862 --> 06:56.039\n如果現在回答不出來,麻煩一下,因為我本席在這120天之內,我不知道幾次每一個部都跟我講會後兩個禮拜一個月之內資料到我手上,但是都沒有。等一下我可能會針對這些部會來去做進一步的評論,好不好?\n\n07:01.205 --> 07:20.725\n區議院跟地區議院互併比能夠把它統計出來如果有達到的我們依照獎勵沒有達到的我們要求他趕快的補足同樣的因為這都是12項當初在選舉的時候我們提要全面的補足因為現在人力是有缺口的我們盡量從人力的培育上面來增加從考用的制度\n\n07:20.965 --> 07:36.060\n我現在甚至在問那就是既然我已經講到1比6互併比的話那我想請問三班互併比標準的訂定跟落實請問部長你們一定好了嗎?什麼時候可以跟全國副理事講說我們已經準備好了?\n\n07:38.308 --> 07:43.893\n我再問一次,第四項,這12項政策是我們這次競選團隊提出來,針對全國護理師所提出來的。第四項,三班互併標準的定定跟落實。請問,我們行政團隊擬定好了嗎?什麼時候可以給全國護理師這個福音呢?\n\n08:05.541 --> 08:29.949\n因為老實講我不想先破題因為當初這個事情是說2026年三班戶病法要入法然後這是在選前講的選前滿口答應選後馬上忘記基本上我很不希望這樣去討論民生議題用這樣聳動的話語去講事情但是今天你們回答我的態度就讓我這樣認為這件事情好像是真的是嗎\n\n08:30.930 --> 08:51.978\n我是跟委員報告我剛剛說過從人力的培育上面我們要從考用的制度先來精進才能有辦法多增加一些護理的從業人員同時也希望說剛剛30萬到18、9萬的這個數字能不能讓更多的護理人員願意投入到第一線所以設了很多對於他的待遇的優化職場環境的友善等等這個都持續在做\n\n08:54.259 --> 09:15.809\n謝謝院長我知道您想把這件事做好因為這個不關意識形態不關政治是全然的民生議題而且台灣不管是基隆這個高齡化城市還是台灣已經邁入超高齡化國家而且我們搞不好要跟全世界想互視這個可能也是我們會遇到的困境那我在這邊也順便你剛剛都講到待遇了嘛\n\n09:16.289 --> 09:36.103\n那老實講出得起猴子出得起香蕉子找得到猴子出得起牛肉才找得到獅子嘛那我在這邊也必須要跟我們這些白板小夜急診的護理師講話其實老實講我如果說我前一陣子那個因為家人還是一些卡有事情我就\n\n09:36.463 --> 09:37.064\n很辛苦很辛苦\n\n09:52.714 --> 10:21.484\n我們記得前一陣子我記得有修法就是針對說護理師如果被病人被病人用被病人打的時候這個要入這個要加上刑責這我完全認同但是就算是這樣做的事情這樣的這樣的法修了之後其實我們對護理師的尊重還是嚴重不足尤其是當我們情緒不好的時候他們工作量本來就大那他們的待遇又不夠好的時候那如果剛剛還是回到那句話我們一天到晚出我們一天到晚給香蕉當然請得到猴子嘛\n\n10:21.724 --> 10:46.950\n甚至我們只給他花生,連猴子都不來吃啊。我這樣講的比喻是說,其實我們護理師,他們所屬這一行,他們都是想救人,想要幫人,想要希望說這個護理,我們台灣這個健保,我們每個人被照顧到會照顧得更好。但是巧婦無米難為垂,更何況基本待遇都不夠的時候,我這邊強烈要求就是說,請不要同工不同酬。\n\n10:47.950 --> 11:02.238\n也就是醫學中心跟區域中心跟地區醫院這方面我其實已經在基層聽到太多護理師跟我講這件事情了同工不同酬甚至說難道真的大夜班的累是體質上的累\n\n11:03.078 --> 11:19.604\n但是,如果是白班就不累嗎?白班的時候你又要負責開刀,你要負責巡訪,你要負責做一切的事情,要負責打藥。這些全部都是白班的護理師需要去注重的。但是,我們現在那時候看到的政策就是大夜班很可憐,小夜班很可憐,白班就很輕鬆。錯!\n\n11:21.817 --> 11:43.803\n我想部長應該對這件事最有體會。非常謝謝委員對護理人員的關心。因為我也是臨床幾十年的醫師,跟護理人員是一起團隊作戰。他們的辛苦,其實不論是白班、夜班,都是非常的辛苦。白班每一個職場有他不同的\n\n11:44.543 --> 12:09.890\n反縱所以我們在研議這個其實我們有一直持續研議醫院白班反縱方面怎麼樣來給他津貼但是這個反縱的部分就剛剛聽政務委員你所說所提到的一馬公一馬公一反縱一馬公一反縱所以在定義上面我們會再做詳細的研議跟我們最近也都約相關的婦女團體來討論希望能夠定出一個大家滿意的一個標準\n\n12:11.270 --> 12:38.296\n謝謝部長因為我再講一次這是你們第8項裡面講的夜班費的獎勵那我在這邊搶業了求政策不能讓護理師之間產生對立因為獎勵金應該都要有嘛我們台灣說真的我們的護理師平均平均那個經常性薪資好像是4萬3千還是4萬4千而已其實以他的工時來講可能連最低我覺得跟最低工時差不多了其實而且他們要做\n\n12:39.216 --> 12:39.236\n﹚廣告\n\n13:02.794 --> 13:11.267\n這個我覺得這個其實我不想跟其他人人家說什麼時候是國安危機什麼時候是國安危機但是這個的確是很迫切我們需要解決的問題\n\n13:12.625 --> 13:37.156\n那這個...對不起還有我想請問一下在第10項跟第11項還是有關三班互併比的達標醫院應該有個三班互併比的達標的獎勵跟護理友善職場的獎勵我想這都是當初那個12項裡面講的那請問部長或請問院長獎勵方法是不是訂好了呢?那我們什麼時候看得到什麼時候可以實施?\n\n13:39.886 --> 14:02.315\n我們優化護理職場的環境,落實三班互併比,這個其實在113年3月1日要實施。未來我們有爭取到有一個中長期的計畫,大概這個也通過預算,會來改善整個職場的一個環境。\n\n14:07.677 --> 14:21.302\n我為什麼要去把這個檢視這邊因為我剛剛有提過說本來2026這都應該全面要進去但是我們沒有看到說我們其實在選舉在大選的時候我們聽到說三班互併筆要入法\n\n14:22.362 --> 14:47.959\n目前來講我們似乎就是慢慢慢慢在做我現在聽到部長的回應我聽到院長的回應我們就知道說像這樣的事情其實是有是一步一步在做的但是請你們如果第一個如果能夠的話加快第二點讓早點讓我們知道這個遠比其他的事情更能夠讓病患跟護理師安心我們希望多一點的護理師回來到工作環境裡面但是我們不跟他們講說其實你們待遇會比未來好\n\n14:48.399 --> 15:12.586\n甚至說我會直接建議院長將三班護病表直接納入所謂醫療機構的設置標準這個醫療機構設置標準不是是所謂的是醫療法授權給衛福部制定的法規命令只要衛福部願意就可以把這個三班護病表入法而且不需要等待我們立法院曠日廢時的修法程序基本上這樣比較能夠救急啦\n\n15:13.547 --> 15:38.681\n我不知道院長您覺得怎麼樣呢?針對醫學中心區醫院跟地區醫院三班互併比各有不同的數字的比例那這個部分應該是會列入將來對醫院評鑑重要的依據但是我說人力要將它補齊我們才有辦法真的做到否則各個醫院沒有辦法招募到這個足夠的護理人員這個三班互併比就是一個空的目標那現在我們有進程期程就會將它一一的補齊\n\n15:40.024 --> 16:07.368\n我如果講到人力醫療的話其實某個程度上面全世界我想提醒院長一件事就是全世界都在搶護士喔全世界其實我想院長在您的高度上面應該很清楚的知道說美國在搶菲律賓的護士然後我記得日本、韓國也在針對護士有去說你護士跟企術型勞工來去做一定程度說如果你入籍多久之後我們會給你永久居留權甚至給你國籍\n\n16:07.828 --> 16:25.036\n那我知道這個已經不是單單純純衛福部的事情那因為現在缺工的事情缺工的狀況是各行各業都有但是我會在這邊提醒院長您是行政院院長那您的任期我們其實我們不知道我希望說您能夠在您的任期之內好好的跟整個行政團隊來考慮說\n\n16:26.477 --> 16:27.677\n人力的補充當然從國內培訓這個是最直接的\n\n16:55.441 --> 17:20.283\n那如果有真的需要我們在經過跟社會的討論共識之後是不是會採用更好的方式那除了部長之外我想陳時中政委在這方面也應該就是大家可以信賴的一個對醫護關係醫護政策的一個專家跟這個專業的人士那我也請陳時中政委來負責來辦好這件事情其實這件事情我們一直在講護理護理護理就花到我們十幾分鐘可是其實藥師也一樣嚴重\n\n17:21.980 --> 17:48.282\n其實藥師我記得藥師的合格率藥師考試合格率好像是百分之三十不到對吧那變成是說我們現在在臺灣是每一萬人就有十三才只有每一萬人只有十三位藥師服務那其實我想很好奇就請問說為什麼醫院卻常年聘不滿藥師呢我們比一般人那個一般的OECD國家來的高但是我們為什麼聘不滿藥師呢部長\n\n17:51.435 --> 17:53.897\n二十幾趴這個比人家三分九還低啊?\n\n18:02.895 --> 18:07.878\n其實這個專業人員的考試牽涉到是說那個專業團體尤其是老師們他們的一個堅持對他們專業的一個看法所以有時候我們常常溝通甚至我這邊在講啦就是我直接講比較具體一點的根據統計臺大臺北榮總這兩間龍頭醫學中心加起來缺的藥師就已經超過50名\n\n18:32.915 --> 18:33.516\n請問部長或請問院長為什麼\n\n18:46.708 --> 19:05.610\n這應該跟他這個在工作所遇到的對工作的大家對工作的尊敬跟他工作的環境應該有相當的關係我們也希望說在不降低整個業界水準的情況底下我們來精進考試的制度執照的取得應該顧慮到他過去在學校期間那麼辛苦的求學過程\n\n19:06.030 --> 19:21.159\n是不是能夠用這樣的方式來讓更多的人他能夠經過學程之後投入到這個職場裡面?整個醫療系統裡面醫護要三者缺一不可變成是雖然你醫師夠但是如果你護士不夠基本上醫師也難做事那你就算\n\n19:21.579 --> 19:43.435\n一是護士夠,要是不給藥,基本上治療也是很有限。問題是說我們現在台灣的健保,我們一直講說我們的公衛是在全球排名前幾名,我們的公共治療是全球排名很好的,但是我們自己難道現在遇到人員不足的時候,我們如果還是說OK,我們還是在自滿說我們台灣的健保全世界最好,台灣的醫療全世界最有名,但是我們不去面對現在的問題的話,其實這個\n\n19:45.496 --> 19:47.337\n謝謝委員,我也跟部長談過我們應該朝向讓一些替代役能夠投入到護理的工作或者其他的這個\n\n20:10.796 --> 20:10.936\n請放一下影片。\n\n20:32.049 --> 20:48.439\n謝謝部長。院長我跟你是第二次見面,第一次見面是在基隆市的市場,我也會記得你那時候幫人家站臺。但是這個市場是其實你就知道基隆其實這種庶民經濟是非常非常的盛行的。\n\n20:49.246 --> 21:08.989\n那基隆市的最大的市場叫做仁愛市場那目前來講也是快變成跟北投一樣這種傳統二樓市場改建的非常成功但是尷尬的地方是呢他們裡面500個攤商改建後37年然後沒有冷氣不是說沒有冷氣這個是我這個禮拜六過去看\n\n21:09.910 --> 21:20.329\n我實際在那邊走而且11點半還沒有人潮只到一半多一點到12點半只會人更多然後就已經體感就超過37度而且越來越熱\n\n21:21.223 --> 21:44.197\n那這個時候說真的我知道傳統市場這方面的議題應該講起來是我們經濟部那經濟部的話老實說我在剛進國會的時候我也知道說我對這個老實講有時候在看這些預算的時候重新再去做審視整個預算的時候我也很好奇就是說經濟部產發署跟技術師兩個單位一年補助各項產業就高達350億\n\n21:50.700 --> 22:01.778\n三百五十億的話我曾經算過如果一條基隆的這個基隆捷運加台中捷運的半條一年這個是十幾年的工程三百五十億一年\n\n22:03.474 --> 22:24.528\n這個十分錢就夠了,那我當然是這樣不能西瓜不能跟梨子比我很清楚,不過同樣是說都是庶民經濟,剛剛我們看的影片的時候也看到說在禮拜六的早上11點半,那其實還沒有算很多的時候,我們就在整個傳統市場上面看到人擠人,整個整個,基本上如果說部長或哪一天院長如果來齊龍,我帶你去那邊走走你就知道了。\n\n22:25.549 --> 22:26.990\n林沛祥林沛祥林沛祥林沛祥林沛祥\n\n22:52.051 --> 23:04.387\n可是那個體溫那個體感溫度還是降不下來而且裡面的冷氣每一台基本上有的開有的關但是冷氣都輸不來那我們一方面來講用電老實講這樣對用電其實蠻傷的一台30幾一個市場30幾年來冷氣都沒有換過\n\n23:10.555 --> 23:39.354\n那我說真的我想說在這邊也代表基隆也代表我們整個也代表基隆代表基層我是基隆的民意代表我是基隆的嬰兒我是基站出來的所以我會希望代表基隆代表基層現請我們經濟部幫個忙在這邊用我自己總質詢的時間那請問部長或院長你們覺得這個忙30幾年的一個大型傳統市場500多個攤位都沒有冷氣可以吹而且現在還沒有到最熱的時候那是不是可以見請我們行政團隊\n\n23:40.637 --> 23:41.543\n苦民所苦呢?\n\n23:43.265 --> 24:10.595\n各位委員報告十年來基隆的改變我想國人都看得到它有很多地方過去比較不是那麼方便現在都變成很潮流的地方很明亮的地方如果能用這種觀念來改變的話我想對基隆的市民來看都是歡迎的那這個過程我相信基隆市政府應該扮演極重要的角色未來我們是不是一同跟市政府來做理解跟一起努力讓地方也能夠\n\n24:11.295 --> 24:11.315\n部長\n\n24:35.129 --> 24:49.819\n報告委員,你這個案子我們後來有回去,我們有檢討,我有責成我們相關單位,應該有跟你報告。那我們現在是準備用這個節能減碳的方法來幫助這個市場的改建。\n\n25:00.663 --> 25:18.776\n那這個部分我想大概所有的這個設備我們會由廠家來負責。那大概市場你們大概最後的結果可能你的廠商他們繳的電費可能還更省。\n\n25:19.735 --> 25:47.708\n好那我其實在這邊就已經講到省電省電的議題那其實郭部長您也辛苦了啦最近這個整個政治氛圍跟您的專業跟您的過去背景不太一樣但是我也在這邊想請教郭部長因為老實講這個NVIDIA剛剛離開黃仁勳剛剛離開那他離開那我個人因為我個人是在看整個整個情況之後在說看了所有報導之後發現說當然他離開的時候講到電力是最大的缺口\n\n25:48.789 --> 26:03.147\n老實說這個我個人認為是如果能夠把NVIDIA的這個R&DCenter就是把它的研發中心留在臺灣不管留在哪個城市我當然希望留在基隆市但是不管留在哪個城市對於臺灣都是好事\n\n26:04.451 --> 26:18.458\n但是他自己也第一時間提出來了,電力的問題是很大的,是一個很大的concern,一個很大的issue。因為電力衝突中途是一回事。另外一方面是電力的價格也是一回事。\n\n26:19.315 --> 26:37.331\n第三個是電力如何創造這些電力的來源也是一回事。電力的充足不充足我想已經有我們太多同事已經談到了。電力的價格因為如果說我們電力的價格比別人貴的話我想以一個全球佈局的公司可能不太願意在高成本的情況之下來臺灣設廠。\n\n26:39.478 --> 26:55.274\n更何況還有電力的來源,剛剛應該是林代化委員有講到說臺灣的電力97%是來自於煤炭跟天然氣。那有一個問題其實如果是業界人都很關心就是CBAN。\n\n26:56.161 --> 27:24.124\n就是明...如果記得沒錯的話是明年嘛明年歐盟就要對於臺灣客...對於臺灣的產品那個客...客與探稅對吧那CBAN的問題呢變成是說臺灣我們現在的探稅問題什麼現在探交易所探交易法探交易...執法是不是已經成型而且如何說我們臺灣先把這個稅探...這個稅錢先把它拿下來之後所以我們的產品到歐盟不用被...不用去客稅換句話說那如果R&DCenter的NVIDIA的R&DCenter來到臺灣那...\n\n27:26.025 --> 27:44.025\n他的產品最後面出去的時候反而要被課碳稅,他們會不會因為這樣而不去做誘引進來,這我也很好奇。因為我們現在談到,我們當然是要NVIDIA過來,姑且不論國際政治因素這是他可能第一最大的風險。再來就是我們講的電力,再來還是講到說會不會有所謂的颱風跟地震。\n\n27:47.829 --> 28:09.130\n臺風跟地震對NVIDIA來講是想要去考慮的事情。第一考慮到兩岸關係嘛。再來考慮到電力問題。可是電力就不是只有電力充不充足。電力的來源還有電力的價格。而且我們也知道NVIDIA它的整個電力的使用率是高的。這不是說只是我們現在隨便說1%、2%。因為你要去做出R&D的時候。\n\n28:10.251 --> 28:10.291\n﹚林沛\n\n28:29.887 --> 28:34.788\n報告委員這個NVIDIA他要的還是綠電所以我們現在是朝這個方向在努力也就是說我們發出來的綠電能夠滿足讓他們使用\n\n28:59.486 --> 29:19.416\n來得及嗎?應該是來得及。來得及嗎?因為我老實講綠電過去8年讓我們不是只有本席,我想普遍的國人都因為綠電的發展的速度感到失望。所以說未來的話如何能夠趕得及讓國人符合期待,而且是好像本來在明年就要到15%或15%還20%,不過現在\n\n29:22.398 --> 29:22.798\n但是我們電從哪裡來?\n\n29:50.612 --> 29:53.215\n要滿足這些電動載具的電從哪裡來?而且如果要滿足這些電動載具的話請問要幾個發電廠?是火力發電廠還是核能發電還是綠能發電廠?要什麼時候建好?\n\n30:05.316 --> 30:07.638\n國際大廠來臺灣設廠很多都是需要綠電。他們願意來設廠就表示他對我們綠電的潛能跟開發綠電的能力他們是有信心的。我們一定要對他們負責。這就是說我要這個資料當初是廣明星廣明署長在不在?\n\n30:25.031 --> 30:32.956\n那時候他當國發會主委我在他面前在質詢的所以說這個資料會後給我資料兩個月了資料還沒有到我希望在一兩個禮拜之內\n\n","segments":[{"start":17.971,"end":44.652,"text":"主席有請卓議員長。再請卓議員長備詢。林委員你有沒有站中間一點?我先問一下。對。好。林委員好。卓議員長。我本席是只做一任基隆市議員就直接來到立法院,但是從政的初衷跟之前做議員是完全一樣的。我認為說實踐我的政見,"},{"start":47.284,"end":51.767,"text":"本席曾經有個政見叫做老幼共託,也就是說讓年長者跟小朋友"},{"start":66.561,"end":67.041,"text":"所以說而且再加上說"},{"start":91.62,"end":106.708,"text":"現在的年長者,65歲的年長者,一定要退休的年長者,遠比30年前50歲的勞動者來得年輕,來得有活力,對社會來得有更有價值。單純讓他們放棄這個人力資源是很可惜的。"},{"start":108.7,"end":124.029,"text":"但是這個老幼共託的政策遇到一個很大的算是在配套措施上面遇到一個很大的問題就是說不管是年長者還是小朋友就是7歲以下的小朋友都會遇到都會有希望有這個護理人員的幫忙"},{"start":125.029,"end":137.586,"text":"那我們也知道臺灣的護理人員護理師的不足這問題其實已經不是在臺灣獨特有的現象而是在全球的先進國家都遇到這樣的狀況而"},{"start":139.889,"end":140.149,"text":"應該接近19萬吧?"},{"start":164.931,"end":180.898,"text":"抱歉是30萬那現在真正在第一線的只有18萬18.6萬18萬6千人那變成是說只有六成的人願意有護理師執照可是願意執業但是在2030年我們看到資料2030年我們會需要將近24到26萬的護理師來照顧我們整個醫療系統"},{"start":187.601,"end":215.176,"text":"所以說這樣一加一減的話在最近這幾年我們就必須要增加五萬五千到七萬四千的護理人力才能滿足我們的需求那我也知道從去年開始本來是一年兩次的護理師考試增加成為一年三次而兩次護理師的考試我也聽說這個也的確蠻驚駭的啦七月份的考試"},{"start":216.317,"end":223.623,"text":"不過我更想要知道的是說因為我們現在每年報考護理學校的報考人數只有2100然後經過4年的學校教育我們的考取率平均只有7乘5"},{"start":240.518,"end":260.798,"text":"那所以說每年頂多加1500人,全臺灣只加1500個可以合格的護理師。變成是說在衛福部的未來10年互產人力供需評估研究裡面指出,在2024年我們將短缺15000人到24000人,換句話說馬上護理師荒就要重來。"},{"start":265.242,"end":279.372,"text":"那在去年的9月28號在第3873次會議中合備護理人力政策準備12項策略計畫中,我想請問院長,你們到目前落實了幾項?"},{"start":284.793,"end":295.079,"text":"第一項是護理人員培育嘛那其實說真的一年只有2100個新生未來還會再下降因為我們少子化那想請問具體的我們衛福部的政策會是什麼呢"},{"start":295.949,"end":315.772,"text":"謝謝委員。為服從護理人才培育跟護理人力的留任跟改善護理三大方向,也提出了12項的策略。那有一次我必須向我跟委員報告,13年前當我們在推動對全國護理師人員的獎勵,設立台灣的南丁格爾獎的時候,那時候護理從業人第一線的大概只有12、3萬。"},{"start":317.113,"end":336.373,"text":"那到現在經過10多年他已經進步增加到18萬到19萬這個數目當然比我們現在預期的還要低但是我覺得這個進展是有的如果我們大家起力的推動再加上衛福部現在這個三大面向12項策略能夠齊頭並進我覺得我們可以在更短的時間內"},{"start":337.592,"end":340.334,"text":"趕上或接近需要的護理人員。"},{"start":367.852,"end":395.864,"text":"打到的我們有獎勵的措施,請部長答覆一下。我們除了推動夜班護理人員獎勵,三班護病比的達標的也有獎勵。不是,我是說哪幾家醫院已經達到1比6的護病比啦?那比如說包括醫學中心,包括區域醫院,包括地區醫院,你們9個月統計下來之後哪些醫院合格的達到1比6?我只是想知道這個事情。部長可以回答我這個問題嗎?"},{"start":399.862,"end":416.039,"text":"如果現在回答不出來,麻煩一下,因為我本席在這120天之內,我不知道幾次每一個部都跟我講會後兩個禮拜一個月之內資料到我手上,但是都沒有。等一下我可能會針對這些部會來去做進一步的評論,好不好?"},{"start":421.205,"end":440.725,"text":"區議院跟地區議院互併比能夠把它統計出來如果有達到的我們依照獎勵沒有達到的我們要求他趕快的補足同樣的因為這都是12項當初在選舉的時候我們提要全面的補足因為現在人力是有缺口的我們盡量從人力的培育上面來增加從考用的制度"},{"start":440.965,"end":456.06,"text":"我現在甚至在問那就是既然我已經講到1比6互併比的話那我想請問三班互併比標準的訂定跟落實請問部長你們一定好了嗎?什麼時候可以跟全國副理事講說我們已經準備好了?"},{"start":458.308,"end":463.893,"text":"我再問一次,第四項,這12項政策是我們這次競選團隊提出來,針對全國護理師所提出來的。第四項,三班互併標準的定定跟落實。請問,我們行政團隊擬定好了嗎?什麼時候可以給全國護理師這個福音呢?"},{"start":485.541,"end":509.949,"text":"因為老實講我不想先破題因為當初這個事情是說2026年三班戶病法要入法然後這是在選前講的選前滿口答應選後馬上忘記基本上我很不希望這樣去討論民生議題用這樣聳動的話語去講事情但是今天你們回答我的態度就讓我這樣認為這件事情好像是真的是嗎"},{"start":510.93,"end":531.978,"text":"我是跟委員報告我剛剛說過從人力的培育上面我們要從考用的制度先來精進才能有辦法多增加一些護理的從業人員同時也希望說剛剛30萬到18、9萬的這個數字能不能讓更多的護理人員願意投入到第一線所以設了很多對於他的待遇的優化職場環境的友善等等這個都持續在做"},{"start":534.259,"end":555.809,"text":"謝謝院長我知道您想把這件事做好因為這個不關意識形態不關政治是全然的民生議題而且台灣不管是基隆這個高齡化城市還是台灣已經邁入超高齡化國家而且我們搞不好要跟全世界想互視這個可能也是我們會遇到的困境那我在這邊也順便你剛剛都講到待遇了嘛"},{"start":556.289,"end":576.103,"text":"那老實講出得起猴子出得起香蕉子找得到猴子出得起牛肉才找得到獅子嘛那我在這邊也必須要跟我們這些白板小夜急診的護理師講話其實老實講我如果說我前一陣子那個因為家人還是一些卡有事情我就"},{"start":576.463,"end":577.064,"text":"很辛苦很辛苦"},{"start":592.714,"end":621.484,"text":"我們記得前一陣子我記得有修法就是針對說護理師如果被病人被病人用被病人打的時候這個要入這個要加上刑責這我完全認同但是就算是這樣做的事情這樣的這樣的法修了之後其實我們對護理師的尊重還是嚴重不足尤其是當我們情緒不好的時候他們工作量本來就大那他們的待遇又不夠好的時候那如果剛剛還是回到那句話我們一天到晚出我們一天到晚給香蕉當然請得到猴子嘛"},{"start":621.724,"end":646.95,"text":"甚至我們只給他花生,連猴子都不來吃啊。我這樣講的比喻是說,其實我們護理師,他們所屬這一行,他們都是想救人,想要幫人,想要希望說這個護理,我們台灣這個健保,我們每個人被照顧到會照顧得更好。但是巧婦無米難為垂,更何況基本待遇都不夠的時候,我這邊強烈要求就是說,請不要同工不同酬。"},{"start":647.95,"end":662.238,"text":"也就是醫學中心跟區域中心跟地區醫院這方面我其實已經在基層聽到太多護理師跟我講這件事情了同工不同酬甚至說難道真的大夜班的累是體質上的累"},{"start":663.078,"end":679.604,"text":"但是,如果是白班就不累嗎?白班的時候你又要負責開刀,你要負責巡訪,你要負責做一切的事情,要負責打藥。這些全部都是白班的護理師需要去注重的。但是,我們現在那時候看到的政策就是大夜班很可憐,小夜班很可憐,白班就很輕鬆。錯!"},{"start":681.817,"end":703.803,"text":"我想部長應該對這件事最有體會。非常謝謝委員對護理人員的關心。因為我也是臨床幾十年的醫師,跟護理人員是一起團隊作戰。他們的辛苦,其實不論是白班、夜班,都是非常的辛苦。白班每一個職場有他不同的"},{"start":704.543,"end":729.89,"text":"反縱所以我們在研議這個其實我們有一直持續研議醫院白班反縱方面怎麼樣來給他津貼但是這個反縱的部分就剛剛聽政務委員你所說所提到的一馬公一馬公一反縱一馬公一反縱所以在定義上面我們會再做詳細的研議跟我們最近也都約相關的婦女團體來討論希望能夠定出一個大家滿意的一個標準"},{"start":731.27,"end":758.296,"text":"謝謝部長因為我再講一次這是你們第8項裡面講的夜班費的獎勵那我在這邊搶業了求政策不能讓護理師之間產生對立因為獎勵金應該都要有嘛我們台灣說真的我們的護理師平均平均那個經常性薪資好像是4萬3千還是4萬4千而已其實以他的工時來講可能連最低我覺得跟最低工時差不多了其實而且他們要做"},{"start":759.216,"end":759.236,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":782.794,"end":791.267,"text":"這個我覺得這個其實我不想跟其他人人家說什麼時候是國安危機什麼時候是國安危機但是這個的確是很迫切我們需要解決的問題"},{"start":792.625,"end":817.156,"text":"那這個...對不起還有我想請問一下在第10項跟第11項還是有關三班互併比的達標醫院應該有個三班互併比的達標的獎勵跟護理友善職場的獎勵我想這都是當初那個12項裡面講的那請問部長或請問院長獎勵方法是不是訂好了呢?那我們什麼時候看得到什麼時候可以實施?"},{"start":819.886,"end":842.315,"text":"我們優化護理職場的環境,落實三班互併比,這個其實在113年3月1日要實施。未來我們有爭取到有一個中長期的計畫,大概這個也通過預算,會來改善整個職場的一個環境。"},{"start":847.677,"end":861.302,"text":"我為什麼要去把這個檢視這邊因為我剛剛有提過說本來2026這都應該全面要進去但是我們沒有看到說我們其實在選舉在大選的時候我們聽到說三班互併筆要入法"},{"start":862.362,"end":887.959,"text":"目前來講我們似乎就是慢慢慢慢在做我現在聽到部長的回應我聽到院長的回應我們就知道說像這樣的事情其實是有是一步一步在做的但是請你們如果第一個如果能夠的話加快第二點讓早點讓我們知道這個遠比其他的事情更能夠讓病患跟護理師安心我們希望多一點的護理師回來到工作環境裡面但是我們不跟他們講說其實你們待遇會比未來好"},{"start":888.399,"end":912.586,"text":"甚至說我會直接建議院長將三班護病表直接納入所謂醫療機構的設置標準這個醫療機構設置標準不是是所謂的是醫療法授權給衛福部制定的法規命令只要衛福部願意就可以把這個三班護病表入法而且不需要等待我們立法院曠日廢時的修法程序基本上這樣比較能夠救急啦"},{"start":913.547,"end":938.681,"text":"我不知道院長您覺得怎麼樣呢?針對醫學中心區醫院跟地區醫院三班互併比各有不同的數字的比例那這個部分應該是會列入將來對醫院評鑑重要的依據但是我說人力要將它補齊我們才有辦法真的做到否則各個醫院沒有辦法招募到這個足夠的護理人員這個三班互併比就是一個空的目標那現在我們有進程期程就會將它一一的補齊"},{"start":940.024,"end":967.368,"text":"我如果講到人力醫療的話其實某個程度上面全世界我想提醒院長一件事就是全世界都在搶護士喔全世界其實我想院長在您的高度上面應該很清楚的知道說美國在搶菲律賓的護士然後我記得日本、韓國也在針對護士有去說你護士跟企術型勞工來去做一定程度說如果你入籍多久之後我們會給你永久居留權甚至給你國籍"},{"start":967.828,"end":985.036,"text":"那我知道這個已經不是單單純純衛福部的事情那因為現在缺工的事情缺工的狀況是各行各業都有但是我會在這邊提醒院長您是行政院院長那您的任期我們其實我們不知道我希望說您能夠在您的任期之內好好的跟整個行政團隊來考慮說"},{"start":986.477,"end":987.677,"text":"人力的補充當然從國內培訓這個是最直接的"},{"start":1015.441,"end":1040.283,"text":"那如果有真的需要我們在經過跟社會的討論共識之後是不是會採用更好的方式那除了部長之外我想陳時中政委在這方面也應該就是大家可以信賴的一個對醫護關係醫護政策的一個專家跟這個專業的人士那我也請陳時中政委來負責來辦好這件事情其實這件事情我們一直在講護理護理護理就花到我們十幾分鐘可是其實藥師也一樣嚴重"},{"start":1041.98,"end":1068.282,"text":"其實藥師我記得藥師的合格率藥師考試合格率好像是百分之三十不到對吧那變成是說我們現在在臺灣是每一萬人就有十三才只有每一萬人只有十三位藥師服務那其實我想很好奇就請問說為什麼醫院卻常年聘不滿藥師呢我們比一般人那個一般的OECD國家來的高但是我們為什麼聘不滿藥師呢部長"},{"start":1071.435,"end":1073.897,"text":"二十幾趴這個比人家三分九還低啊?"},{"start":1082.895,"end":1087.878,"text":"其實這個專業人員的考試牽涉到是說那個專業團體尤其是老師們他們的一個堅持對他們專業的一個看法所以有時候我們常常溝通甚至我這邊在講啦就是我直接講比較具體一點的根據統計臺大臺北榮總這兩間龍頭醫學中心加起來缺的藥師就已經超過50名"},{"start":1112.915,"end":1113.516,"text":"請問部長或請問院長為什麼"},{"start":1126.708,"end":1145.61,"text":"這應該跟他這個在工作所遇到的對工作的大家對工作的尊敬跟他工作的環境應該有相當的關係我們也希望說在不降低整個業界水準的情況底下我們來精進考試的制度執照的取得應該顧慮到他過去在學校期間那麼辛苦的求學過程"},{"start":1146.03,"end":1161.159,"text":"是不是能夠用這樣的方式來讓更多的人他能夠經過學程之後投入到這個職場裡面?整個醫療系統裡面醫護要三者缺一不可變成是雖然你醫師夠但是如果你護士不夠基本上醫師也難做事那你就算"},{"start":1161.579,"end":1183.435,"text":"一是護士夠,要是不給藥,基本上治療也是很有限。問題是說我們現在台灣的健保,我們一直講說我們的公衛是在全球排名前幾名,我們的公共治療是全球排名很好的,但是我們自己難道現在遇到人員不足的時候,我們如果還是說OK,我們還是在自滿說我們台灣的健保全世界最好,台灣的醫療全世界最有名,但是我們不去面對現在的問題的話,其實這個"},{"start":1185.496,"end":1187.337,"text":"謝謝委員,我也跟部長談過我們應該朝向讓一些替代役能夠投入到護理的工作或者其他的這個"},{"start":1210.796,"end":1210.936,"text":"請放一下影片。"},{"start":1232.049,"end":1248.439,"text":"謝謝部長。院長我跟你是第二次見面,第一次見面是在基隆市的市場,我也會記得你那時候幫人家站臺。但是這個市場是其實你就知道基隆其實這種庶民經濟是非常非常的盛行的。"},{"start":1249.246,"end":1268.989,"text":"那基隆市的最大的市場叫做仁愛市場那目前來講也是快變成跟北投一樣這種傳統二樓市場改建的非常成功但是尷尬的地方是呢他們裡面500個攤商改建後37年然後沒有冷氣不是說沒有冷氣這個是我這個禮拜六過去看"},{"start":1269.91,"end":1280.329,"text":"我實際在那邊走而且11點半還沒有人潮只到一半多一點到12點半只會人更多然後就已經體感就超過37度而且越來越熱"},{"start":1281.223,"end":1304.197,"text":"那這個時候說真的我知道傳統市場這方面的議題應該講起來是我們經濟部那經濟部的話老實說我在剛進國會的時候我也知道說我對這個老實講有時候在看這些預算的時候重新再去做審視整個預算的時候我也很好奇就是說經濟部產發署跟技術師兩個單位一年補助各項產業就高達350億"},{"start":1310.7,"end":1321.778,"text":"三百五十億的話我曾經算過如果一條基隆的這個基隆捷運加台中捷運的半條一年這個是十幾年的工程三百五十億一年"},{"start":1323.474,"end":1344.528,"text":"這個十分錢就夠了,那我當然是這樣不能西瓜不能跟梨子比我很清楚,不過同樣是說都是庶民經濟,剛剛我們看的影片的時候也看到說在禮拜六的早上11點半,那其實還沒有算很多的時候,我們就在整個傳統市場上面看到人擠人,整個整個,基本上如果說部長或哪一天院長如果來齊龍,我帶你去那邊走走你就知道了。"},{"start":1345.549,"end":1346.99,"text":"林沛祥 林沛祥 林沛祥 林沛祥 林沛祥"},{"start":1372.051,"end":1384.387,"text":"可是那個體溫那個體感溫度還是降不下來而且裡面的冷氣每一台基本上有的開有的關但是冷氣都輸不來那我們一方面來講用電老實講這樣對用電其實蠻傷的一台30幾一個市場30幾年來冷氣都沒有換過"},{"start":1390.555,"end":1419.354,"text":"那我說真的我想說在這邊也代表基隆也代表我們整個也代表基隆代表基層我是基隆的民意代表我是基隆的嬰兒我是基站出來的所以我會希望代表基隆代表基層現請我們經濟部幫個忙在這邊用我自己總質詢的時間那請問部長或院長你們覺得這個忙30幾年的一個大型傳統市場500多個攤位都沒有冷氣可以吹而且現在還沒有到最熱的時候那是不是可以見請我們行政團隊"},{"start":1420.637,"end":1421.543,"text":"苦民所苦呢?"},{"start":1423.265,"end":1450.595,"text":"各位委員報告十年來基隆的改變我想國人都看得到它有很多地方過去比較不是那麼方便現在都變成很潮流的地方很明亮的地方如果能用這種觀念來改變的話我想對基隆的市民來看都是歡迎的那這個過程我相信基隆市政府應該扮演極重要的角色未來我們是不是一同跟市政府來做理解跟一起努力讓地方也能夠"},{"start":1451.295,"end":1451.315,"text":"部長"},{"start":1475.129,"end":1489.819,"text":"報告委員,你這個案子我們後來有回去,我們有檢討,我有責成我們相關單位,應該有跟你報告。那我們現在是準備用這個節能減碳的方法來幫助這個市場的改建。"},{"start":1500.663,"end":1518.776,"text":"那這個部分我想大概所有的這個設備我們會由廠家來負責。那大概市場你們大概最後的結果可能你的廠商他們繳的電費可能還更省。"},{"start":1519.735,"end":1547.708,"text":"好那我其實在這邊就已經講到省電省電的議題那其實郭部長您也辛苦了啦最近這個整個政治氛圍跟您的專業跟您的過去背景不太一樣但是我也在這邊想請教郭部長因為老實講這個NVIDIA剛剛離開黃仁勳剛剛離開那他離開那我個人因為我個人是在看整個整個情況之後在說看了所有報導之後發現說當然他離開的時候講到電力是最大的缺口"},{"start":1548.789,"end":1563.147,"text":"老實說這個我個人認為是如果能夠把NVIDIA的這個R&D Center就是把它的研發中心留在臺灣不管留在哪個城市我當然希望留在基隆市但是不管留在哪個城市對於臺灣都是好事"},{"start":1564.451,"end":1578.458,"text":"但是他自己也第一時間提出來了,電力的問題是很大的,是一個很大的concern,一個很大的issue。因為電力衝突中途是一回事。另外一方面是電力的價格也是一回事。"},{"start":1579.315,"end":1597.331,"text":"第三個是電力如何創造這些電力的來源也是一回事。電力的充足不充足我想已經有我們太多同事已經談到了。電力的價格因為如果說我們電力的價格比別人貴的話我想以一個全球佈局的公司可能不太願意在高成本的情況之下來臺灣設廠。"},{"start":1599.478,"end":1615.274,"text":"更何況還有電力的來源,剛剛應該是林代化委員有講到說臺灣的電力97%是來自於煤炭跟天然氣。那有一個問題其實如果是業界人都很關心就是CBAN。"},{"start":1616.161,"end":1644.124,"text":"就是明...如果記得沒錯的話是明年嘛明年歐盟就要對於臺灣客...對於臺灣的產品那個客...客與探稅對吧那CBAN的問題呢變成是說臺灣我們現在的探稅問題什麼現在探交易所探交易法探交易...執法是不是已經成型而且如何說我們臺灣先把這個稅探...這個稅錢先把它拿下來之後所以我們的產品到歐盟不用被...不用去客稅換句話說那如果R&D Center的NVIDIA的R&D Center來到臺灣那..."},{"start":1646.025,"end":1664.025,"text":"他的產品最後面出去的時候反而要被課碳稅,他們會不會因為這樣而不去做誘引進來,這我也很好奇。因為我們現在談到,我們當然是要NVIDIA過來,姑且不論國際政治因素這是他可能第一最大的風險。再來就是我們講的電力,再來還是講到說會不會有所謂的颱風跟地震。"},{"start":1667.829,"end":1689.13,"text":"臺風跟地震對NVIDIA來講是想要去考慮的事情。第一考慮到兩岸關係嘛。再來考慮到電力問題。可是電力就不是只有電力充不充足。電力的來源還有電力的價格。而且我們也知道NVIDIA它的整個電力的使用率是高的。這不是說只是我們現在隨便說1%、2%。因為你要去做出R&D的時候。"},{"start":1690.251,"end":1690.291,"text":"﹚林沛"},{"start":1709.887,"end":1714.788,"text":"報告委員這個NVIDIA他要的還是綠電所以我們現在是朝這個方向在努力也就是說我們發出來的綠電能夠滿足讓他們使用"},{"start":1739.486,"end":1759.416,"text":"來得及嗎?應該是來得及。來得及嗎?因為我老實講綠電過去8年讓我們不是只有本席,我想普遍的國人都因為綠電的發展的速度感到失望。所以說未來的話如何能夠趕得及讓國人符合期待,而且是好像本來在明年就要到15%或15%還20%,不過現在"},{"start":1762.398,"end":1762.798,"text":"但是我們電從哪裡來?"},{"start":1790.612,"end":1793.215,"text":"要滿足這些電動載具的電從哪裡來?而且如果要滿足這些電動載具的話請問要幾個發電廠?是火力發電廠還是核能發電還是綠能發電廠?要什麼時候建好?"},{"start":1805.316,"end":1807.638,"text":"國際大廠來臺灣設廠很多都是需要綠電。他們願意來設廠就表示他對我們綠電的潛能跟開發綠電的能力他們是有信心的。我們一定要對他們負責。這就是說我要這個資料當初是廣明星廣明署長在不在?"},{"start":1825.031,"end":1832.956,"text":"那時候他當國發會主委我在他面前在質詢的所以說這個資料會後給我資料兩個月了資料還沒有到我希望在一兩個禮拜之內"}]}}}}