{"id":154083,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154083","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529ad5252f0e4e828ccb84a337f76c37b5ea00e1aec3d2490a34bb7f1b8e8d3d49e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"15:46:46 - 16:17:45","影片長度":"00:30:59","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T15:46:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T16:17:45+08:00","duration":1859,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":183,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（15時47分）謝謝主席，有請行政院長、經濟部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長再次備詢，也請經濟部。"],["卓院長榮泰：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，院長午安，一整天的備詢辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：還好、還好，謝謝，謝謝！。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席身為年輕的國會議員，始終懷抱理想，期待我們的政府有功能、社會有良知，人民能夠獲得公平正義。薪水、物價跟房價是當代臺灣人民最在乎的民生指標，這個院長應該不會反對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天就針對經濟發展、分配正義、居住正義來做一下綜合討論，期待政府能夠提出好的表現跟回答。首先我要請問院長跟部長，涓滴效應是什麼意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起。"],["牛委員煦庭：涓滴效應，你有聽過這個名詞嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：涓……"],["郭部長智輝：邊……"],["牛委員煦庭：英文叫trickle-down，沒關係，部長可以說明。"],["郭部長智輝：邊際效應嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：邊際效應……"],["牛委員煦庭：不是邊際啦！是涓滴，下滲經濟學，聽過沒有？好，沒關係，我解釋給你聽。涓滴效應或稱下滲經濟學，是講說政策上，政府的政策側重大企業，透過給大企業，不管是減稅也好，或者是產業經濟政策的一些優惠，期待讓這一群人來帶動其他人的發展，透過讓一部分的人先成功，然後期待他們可以合理的自己分配這些賺來的財富，從而間接地達成社會貧富差距越來越小的這件事情，這個概念叫做trickle-down，叫做涓滴效應。院長，您相不相信這樣子說法的效果？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣已經是一個成熟的開發，而且高科技產業非常完善的一個地方，讓一部分人先富起來，那是古代中國的一個說法，不適合我們現在，我們現在注重的不僅是高科技，我們希望中小微企業都能夠全部起來，這就是所謂均衡臺灣的理念。"],["牛委員煦庭：希望均衡，對不對？好，很好，這就是本席今天第一個要提的概念，為什麼我會提這個當作開場？因為賴清德政府的經濟政策，基本上最常被人家討論的叫做五大信賴產業，對不對？半導體、人工智慧、軍工、安控、次世代通訊，希望透過價值鏈的整合，帶動經濟的成長，這個其實就是標準的下滲經濟學這樣的一個邏輯。我們討論台積電，台積電是我們護國神山；我們討論輝達，認為皮衣哥黃仁勳是臺灣之光，當我們討論這些成功的世界級企業的時候，臺灣人都同感榮耀，這一點本席也非常同意，但本席不禁在想，臺灣難道只有台積電嗎？我們的經濟難道只能圍繞著輝達嗎？我想請問院長，請問臺灣的中小企業數量有多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不是，中小企業才是臺灣經濟的骨幹。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯，數量有多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有很多……"],["牛委員煦庭：數量有多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：人口大概……"],["郭部長智輝：164萬。"],["牛委員煦庭：164萬。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們人口更多……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，部長，OK，大企業大概多少家？"],["卓院長榮泰：大企業？"],["牛委員煦庭：對，非中小企業的。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要怎麼定義叫大企業？"],["牛委員煦庭：就不是中小企業的，有1.8萬家，分別占全體企業數的比率，其實中小企業如同院長剛剛講的，占98.9%，大型企業占1.1%。我就繼續問部長好了，部長是業界出身，當然，崇越集團是大企業沒有錯嘛，對不對？那我要特別請教，您知道中小企業的從業人口數占多少比例嗎？人數多少、比例多少？從業人口數。"],["卓院長榮泰：有幾百萬人。"],["牛委員煦庭：幾百萬？"],["郭部長智輝：中小企業應該有差不多900萬左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯，來，中小企業的數量是163.3萬，占全國98.9%；中小企業的從業人數是913萬，占全部就業人口數79.98%；相對來講，大企業大概是10%左右；另外有18.9%左右是在政府上班。","我們看這個比率，不管是企業的家數或者是從業人口數，就如同院長剛剛講的，其實中小企業才是真正的骨幹，但是我們大部分看到整個政府在推動經濟發展跟產業政策的時候，像大矽谷、高科技、大計畫，其實占掉了大部分的篇幅，本席非常擔心中小企業、服務業是被政府遺忘的一塊，我很擔心在未來政府對他們的角色跟照顧恐怕是失衡的。院長，你對這樣的說法，有沒有什麼回應？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也很怕會造成這種錯誤的現象跟錯誤的觀點，所以我們認為，能夠從數位轉型幫忙中小微企業做產業的升級，才是國家經濟跟社會安定之道。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以你現在有提一個概念叫轉型，對不對？還不錯，有一點方向，但是我今天講話就比較不客氣了，我要講一些一般人比較少接觸，但是滿殘酷的真相。我先請問院長，我們的「晶片驅動臺灣創新方案」要投入多少資源？"],["卓院長榮泰：晶創？"],["牛委員煦庭：對，晶創方案。"],["卓院長榮泰：晶創方案，這個我們請國科會來說明一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，我直接回答，因為時間有限。10年3,000億，臺灣AI行動2.0投入多少資源？部長知道嗎？部長總要知道一下吧！"],["郭部長智輝：這一部分我不是非常確定。"],["牛委員煦庭：來，國科會就救援一下吧！"],["吳主任委員誠文：AI行動方案2.0我們剛啟動。"],["牛委員煦庭：經費？"],["吳主任委員誠文：經費部分確實的數字，我現在……"],["牛委員煦庭：4年400億，馬上的3.0預計每一年要投入120億，但我要再接著追問，你這個數字答不出來，我很擔心。院長，我請教一下，中小企業行動智慧應用計畫投入多少資源？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：少的多，民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫投入多少資源？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在在查。"],["牛委員煦庭：也很少。輔導企業二代接班的這個計畫，叫做輔導小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫，剛剛院長有講了，你看一下上面的圖表，民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫4年1億6,000萬；中小企業行動智慧應用計畫5年1億4,000萬；輔導小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫2024年剛剛上路，第一年7,700萬。我們經濟部有中小企業，還跟新創併在一起，叫中小企業與創新署，年度預算只有44億4,000萬，跟前面我們剛剛講的，晶片驅動臺灣計畫10年3,000億；AI行動2.0是4年400億；未來3.0一年120億，是不是資源的投入跟政府政策的重心有一點點落差？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一部分的話，我們所投入的預算是依以後產出的效益為主，所以這個計算，對晶創的部分跟AI的部分，都是以3年後、5年後的產值作為推估的一部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天絕對不反對投資AI、投資半導體，它是我們的護國神山，我非常支持，但是我擔心的是政府角色的失衡，我為什麼開頭要用特別的名詞──涓滴經濟學？就是因為你永遠都只有看到龍頭的時候，你期待龍頭帶動產業鏈，這個概念都沒錯，但是我想請問，比如晶創產業、整個半導體產業鏈，這3,000億的資源總共有多少間企業會受惠？大的、小的加起來，整條半導體產業鏈，大概有多少家？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，晶創臺灣計畫我們現在正在修正，我們會把晶片應用、AI應用的產業，那就是包括中小企業全部會納進來，所以我們在應用的部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：以本席瞭解的資料，整個半導體產業鏈的上、中、下游，大的、小的都算400家左右，你看我們剛剛討論中小企業總共的家數是一百六十幾萬家，這就是我擔心的事情。第二個，我也很想問，這個AI的行動計畫可以造福多少產業、可以造福多少從業人員？對不對？這就是我今天想要問的問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認同委員，我們在晶片產業跟AI應用的部分會推廣，現在正在規劃這個，所以會增加中小企業的……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我想不管是院長、部長跟主委，應該可以聽得出來啦！現在看起來資源投入的失衡狀況好像比較明顯一些，其實很多中小企業的專案，我們去爬資料，甚至都沒有辦法在新聞媒體上露出，因為太小了，相比這些大企業、這些旗艦，這小到沒有被人家關注，但不能因為它小就遺忘它，這是我給新團隊的第一個提醒，希望院長可以合理地做調整，而不要忽略了大部分從業人員跟基層產業的需求，好嗎？這是第一個。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，國科會在討論這個議程的時候，它有相當好的一個方向跟分析的結果，將來一定不僅從高科技裡面，還要再分高科技裡面的強弱，還要落實到中小微企業，主委曾經報告過這樣詳細的計畫。"],["牛委員煦庭：畢竟新團隊才剛上任，我們會願意給一些時間，但我希望接下來我們在追蹤這個題目的時候，不要再看到大小眼的這種狀況。","再來，我要問股票指數屢創歷史新高，國發會的景氣燈號攀升，藍燈慢慢都變紅燈，數據上看起來經濟前景很好，院長，看好臺灣未來的經濟嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：最近很多人包括國外的朋友跟國際大廠對臺灣的持續投資，都認為臺灣是一個很好的機會，但是我們政府跟民間都要有能力來接住這樣的機會。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝！但我要講的是人民的落差跟一般的政府，也許是國外企業的落差，從總體經濟數據來看好像狀況不錯。但是中央大學的臺灣經濟發展研究中心，它一直以來有長時間針對家庭經濟信心、經濟景氣信心、就業信心、物價水準、購買耐久財時機跟投資股票時機等6項信心指數，進行長時間的民意調查，目前……","我就直接把圖表show出來了，人民的想法跟觀感，跟政府漂亮的數據，其實有不小的落差，家庭經濟信心認為不太好的大概44%左右；對於經濟景氣的信心覺得不太好的大概37%到38%；就業機會的信心覺得不太好的超過一半，56%。物價水準信心非常可怕，認為物價未來會上漲的有九成多；股票雖然上了兩萬多點，大家都覺得很厲害，但是有超過三分之二的臺灣人民不認為現在是一個投資股票的好時機。院長，為什麼人民的感受跟政府的數據有一個顯著的落差？"],["卓院長榮泰：我承認人民的感受，我們要讓它更真實、更溫暖、更直接，所以我說過一句話──任何經濟的發展是繁榮的指標，但是公平的分配才是文明國家的象徵。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，公平的分配，其實這個非常切合本席要問的主題，為什麼數字很好，可是大部分的人悲觀，其實就是通貨膨脹的問題，有超過94%的人認為物價會上漲，經濟成長的好處顯然被更高的通膨給壓過去了嘛！很多科技業的榮景，不見得是很多中小企業所能感受的，這是另外一個本席剛剛有提到的問題，分配是非常重要的，所以我們接下來談一談薪水的問題。","根據數據資料庫的顯示，我們勞工的每月名目薪資，從2020年到2024年成長了大概三千多塊，接近一成，提升的幅度不小，但是其實更多人關注的是所謂實質薪資的上漲率啊！實質經常性薪資在同樣的時間內卻是連續下降，院長，這代表什麼意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們薪資的結構還是要讓它增加人民的所得。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為薪資名目的上漲比不上通貨膨脹的速度啊！通膨嚴重基本上全民受苦，受苦程度也有大有小，因為各行各業心情不太一樣。行政院主計總處的薪情平臺，這個用我們政府的資料，2023年統計資料顯示，我們總共有111類的產業，大家講百工百業，其中有73個類別的產業，每個月包含獎金在內、包含加班費在內，薪水其實低於5萬，這73類的產業占全體產業類別65.7%，其中又以服務業跟中小企業為大宗。這就是為什麼我開宗明義一定要講分配是很重要的，面對通膨帶動的成本全面上漲，請問院長怎麼從困境中找出路？打算用什麼樣的方法解決薪資停止成長的情況，院長現在有想法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府當然會透過每一年適當的調薪，看能不能帶動企業對整個員工調薪，如果我們經濟是向好的方向發展，更期待企業、雇主能夠將這個利益分散到勞工的身上去，讓他能夠得到這樣的比例。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長要找這些業者來喝咖啡，對不對？以前的方法，不外乎第一個，政府帶頭調薪；第二個就是請重要的人士來喝咖啡。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也可以公開的呼籲。"],["牛委員煦庭：公開的呼籲。我們要討論的一樣，本席在乎的是中小企業的事，針對中小企業的加薪減稅方案，其實都透過修法的方式來處理嘛，對不對？但是一樣，2016年我們針對這個做加薪減稅，也就是中小企業給員工加薪，政府給稅率優惠，這個東西花了多少錢？院長跟部長有掌握嗎？有一點細節啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是相當大指標的一個獎勵……"],["牛委員煦庭：2016年這個計畫第一次推出來的稅式支出1,043萬、一千多萬而已；2017年753萬，然後這個計畫就中斷了，馬上要新上路，因為最近又在討論修法的方案，從高估的角度最多最多也就是2.63億啊，如果低估的話，可能只有5,000萬。對照我們剛剛給那些大企業、成功企業各式各樣的政策優惠，同樣在加薪減稅這一塊，政府投入的資源本席期期以為不夠啊！真的是不夠啊！","經濟政策的篇幅跟資源是政府最好的照妖鏡，如果我們的政府一直圍繞強勢產業來訂定政策，投入的資源是以百億、千億為單位，就期待這些企業成為火車頭，要帶動產業成長，要成為原動力，這個就是我開頭講的叫做經濟學上面的涓滴效應，是這樣子的政策邏輯。不管藍綠，過去這一段時間大家都是用這一套的邏輯去想像臺灣的經濟政策，但從薪資的數字、人民的信心指數來看，顯然沒有涓滴的效果，反而形成了強者恆強、弱者更弱的分配問題，本席認為這叫方向錯誤，如果政府沒有辦法及時來調整，我認為這是有負人民的託付。","所以本席在第一段的質詢裡面，期許新政府能夠察覺問題，調整政策，關注中小企業及服務業的發展、從業人員的薪資狀況。他們明明就是這個社會上的多數，卻在政府的資源分配上只有千萬或者是以億為單位的專案投入，這是嚴重失衡。所以本席嚴肅提醒我們的政府，要有更深刻的研究、更細緻的政策，不要迷思於總體經濟的數據，而忘記人民分配的公平、正義。院長，講到目前還可以接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的觀點，總體經濟還是很重要，我們這次很多的閣員都來自產業，我們希望帶進產業的效率。最近我們也會對進階問題在院內成立一個諮詢的委員會，當中國發會、經濟部、財政部會就現在所遇到的問題，跟長久以來無法解決的問題，提出一個新的觀點跟看法，我們希望有機會來落實下去。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們期待政策在這樣子的平臺搭建起來之後，針對中小企業，針對服務業，一定要投入特別的資源。"],["卓院長榮泰：讓國發會主委來說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，因為我時間有限。我樂觀期待你可以有像樣的作法，但因為我們要進入到第二階段，第二階段我們要談的是房價，所以經濟部長等各位可以先回座休息。有請我們內政部長。","接著我們談房價的問題，根據內政部從全國各縣市的實價登錄交易資料顯示出來的結果，可以發現住宅價格上升的趨勢比物價還要恐怖，以105年也就是2016年蔡政府上臺第1年當成基準來計算，房價指數是100，到112年度的第四季，也就是去年的年底，這個數字的指數直逼140，可以說這8年住宅價格上漲了接近四成。但今天我要先問的問題是於此同時，有一個非常有趣的狀況，想要跟政府來做一下探討，跟院長做個探討，內政部統計的房價所得比好像沒什麼變，也就是房屋價格大概漲了三成多，接近四成，可是我看你那房價所得比好像沒有差很多。","以桃園市為例，以前2020年……也就是剛好105年那個基準年是7.6，現在變成8.1啊，房價漲這麼多，為什麼房價所得比沒有相應幅度的上漲？你們有沒有做過這樣子的研究，為什麼差別差這麼多？院長或部長可以回答。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的指教，你大概也發現其實我們經濟的成長動能非常的高，所以房價在自由市場上面確實會出現這樣的狀況，政府所推出來包括我們現在所謂的百萬租屋家戶的部分，追不上現在房價的速度，所以才會產生像你所說的現象，那是我們必須要來檢討改進的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，待會我們一樣會針對百萬租屋政策探討。我只舉一個例子，我講這個數據的不合理性，我希望政府思考一下，是不是太樂觀了？比如說，2020年在本席的選區──A7重劃區，那時候一坪房屋價格大概是25萬，到2024年、2023年的年底左右大概是35萬，其實它上漲幅度差不多就是四成，也就是說一個一千萬的兩房一廳一衛的房型，到最近差不多都是一千四百多萬，甚至有更高的狀況出現。而房價所得比7.6的意思，表示不吃不喝7.6年可以買得起1,000萬的房子，我們就以這個為例子，年收入所得大概是131萬；到了2023年，如果房價從1,000萬變成1,400萬的時候，照理來講，房價所得比用同樣一百三十幾萬的標準來算的話，房價所得比會超過10，對不對？我要存超過10年，因為1年收入130萬，房價要1,400百萬，房價所得比超過10，可是按照你們這個數字的算法才8.1，也就是短短半年的時間增加了400萬的收入，本席覺得這個數字跟人民實際的感受有很大的落差。如果政府的數據太過樂觀，沒有辦法認知高房價，尤其是對於青年世代的衝擊，我擔心政府沒有辦法好好的規劃相關的政策。","我要問，為什麼房價會越打越高呢？我們還是要回到問題的根源，請院長評價一下，蔡政府過去8年針對熱錢湧入房地產市場是怎麼樣打擊炒作？你給這樣一連串的政策措施打幾分？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在過去推動了多元的社會住宅政策，也從稅制方面推動房地合一稅，打擊短期炒作，這些手段都有在做，政府還是會持續做很多公共建設的開發，包括軌道交通的開發，這種開發都會助長當地房價跟生活圈的改善，所以房價高漲有很多社會的因素。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以院長覺得很正常，而且不用改善？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府從居住正義的角度去做更多平價的，從可以讓年輕人住的安心的角色去做，但我們在公共建設方面還是不能停下來……"],["牛委員煦庭：當然不應該停下來，公共建設是改善所有人民的生活品質，這點本席非常同意，但是高房價是一個很大的社會問題。從80年代以來，臺灣的住宅政策基本上崇尚住宅當商品、市場萬能論、去公共化的思維，讓房價回歸市場機制就好了，政府雖然有少數的打擊措施，但大部分都是補貼式的政策，美其名曰降低青年的負擔，其實就是變相鼓勵人民買房。截至2022年底，我國住宅自有率高達84.6%，但同時房屋貸款從20年變成30年，30年變成35年，甚至出現40年的房貸，多少年輕世代因為這樣陷入房子、孩子二選一的困境，養了孩子卻無力買房，背了房貸就無力生子。","我們看到政府面對民怨的主要對應手段，在過去這些時間還是加碼、加碼、再加碼，補貼、補貼、再補貼，至於真正有機會能夠降低房價、抑制投機市場面的改革，恐怕是牛步向前。政府用社會福利的角度提供補貼，租屋補貼是一種，新青安的利息補貼是一種，但真正的問題從來就是居住世代的不公跟市場的扭曲，如果我們還是只繼續用社會福利的角度提供社宅、提供補貼，只用這樣的角度看待住宅政策，大家想要討好青年，又不敢得罪建商，慷公家之慨卻沒有辦法解決問題。","本席主張，政府的思維應該從社會福利轉向社會投資，什麼叫社會投資？大家都講青年的世代、國家的未來，他們不應該是投資客獲利的工具，不應該絕望，也不應該對未來躺平以對，解決青年的住房問題就是解決青年少子女化的問題，就是找回國家未來最直接、最有效也最務實的方式，我們需要政府將住宅問題再公共化，讓它回歸使用價值，要從整體市場面推動改革方案，澈底改善買不起跟租不好的兩大困境，以確保居住權。","針對蔡政府8年的打房措施，本席認為是不及格的，深水區的改革始終不願意碰觸，但是賴清德總統曾經提過囤房稅2.0的想法，也馬上要上路，請院長或部長簡單說明具體的內容，這樣的政策能不能增加建商的持有成本，避免囤積居奇，大搞限售、鎖盤？什麼時候推動上路？預期成效跟目標又是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：囤房稅2.0可能要請財政部來回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員一定是關心最近談到所謂新青安的問題，財政部已經就貸後管理的加強，做了很多因應的措施，至於稅制的問題，我想再請部長來說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關房屋稅條例修正了以後，今年7月1號開始就會上路，對於建商，我們是按照規定，在時間內就是取得使用執照後2年內的時間適用比較低的稅，然後超過2到4年之間，適用不同的稅率，是希望建商能夠把興建完成的房屋釋出到市場，避免囤積居奇。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝財政部長、院長還有劉世芳部長，這個內容我就直接秀給大家看，這很重要，前面當然不管是院長或者是部長，大部分的時間都談建設社宅、都談租屋補貼、都談包租代管，這些我也都支持，可是我剛剛講的，政府的邏輯不能只有社會福利，要有市場面的改革，囤房稅就是一種市場面的改革，而且政府已經推了方案，甚至即將上路，沒有什麼道理院長、部長不曉得的，好不好？","剛剛財政部長講得很清楚，這個囤房稅會針對建商，只有2年的寬限期，如果2年內不把該賣的都賣掉，後面就會增加它的持有成本。請問院長、請問兩位部長，這樣一個政策上路之後，你有沒有預設目標？比如說，我要把房價指數往上的趨勢壓平，或者是有沒有具體的一個數字，大概多少時間內，還有多少信心可以完成？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初應該有這樣的規劃……"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，房屋稅基本上我們要讓它走到合理化，也就是說，持有者必須有一個合理的負擔，所以若是自住的話，單一自住事實上我們是降低稅率……"],["牛委員煦庭：當然！"],["莊部長翠雲：但是對於你持有房屋，卻又沒有做合理的利用或是空置，那我們也會用比較高的稅，但是如果你出租的話，我們是會用比較低的稅率，換句話說，希望持有房屋的人可以釋出，不管是租賃市場也好或買賣市場也好，都可以增加這樣的供給，讓房屋市場能夠得到更健康的發展。"],["牛委員煦庭：內容部長講得很清楚，但是我的問題是什麼？我的問題是政策目標，也就是說，我要把房屋指數往下降，包括降多少，或者是有什麼樣的具體方向？你們在推動的時候，總有一個政策成效吧！它預期的成效會是什麼？比如說，因為這樣的2年寬限期，全國中央歸戶這樣一個政策設計，多少年內可以釋出多少餘屋，改善市場供需不均衡的狀況，你們有相關的數據跟政策目標的具體想法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，當初在政策制定的時候，一定是有相關內容的詳細分析跟研究，或許部長現在手上沒有，我們會把這個資料再跟委員報告……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒有關係。"],["卓院長榮泰：否則這個政策不可能通過大家討論來上路的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，第一次都沒關係，但是我希望後面我們在追蹤題目的時候，各式各樣的數據院長要把它記在腦子裡面，大的方向至少要有。比如說，我就覺得你們可以講25萬戶社會住宅；20幾萬戶的包租代管；50萬的租屋補貼，你看我都會背了，你也會背，大家都會背，可是不會只有這個，對不對？","好，既然你剛剛講到大家擅長的，我就要提到劉世芳部長在內政委員會答詢的時候也說，2032年以前新辦25萬戶社會住宅；25萬戶包租代管；50萬戶的租金補貼；要提供100萬戶的供給量，有這樣的政策目標，是8年的大目標，大家都可以講，但是我很好奇的是，萬一做不到，誰負責？怎麼負責？我們總不能從現在就惡意推定你8年之後一定做不到，這樣好像也太看衰政府，我們也不會這麼不講道理。但是如果你只用8年的大目標去框這個東西的話，我覺得恐怕對於大家追蹤政策的成效來講，有負面的影響。請問有沒有更細緻的？比如說，我們是以逐年或是每兩年的政策目標是什麼來看，方便所有關注住宅議題的人，立委也好，公民團體也好，都可以有效來追蹤，請問有想法嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，我想您講的這部分，8年內百萬租屋家戶支持計畫一定達得到，為什麼？因為到目前為止，包括包租代管或是租金補貼，其實已經達到原來的目標；比較慢的部分，就是所謂的直接興建社宅的部分，直接興建社宅的部分到今年年底的時候已經達到大概八、九萬戶……"],["牛委員煦庭：我不要聽今年的，我要聽1年後、2年後、4年後或是8年後，請你去整理，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：我們每一季、每半年、每一年都會做滾動式檢討，並做數值上的調整……"],["牛委員煦庭：請你去整理，我希望你每兩年有一個兩年的階段目標，比如說分四個階段來達成，這樣是不是大家在追蹤上比較具體？中間出了問題，我可能會及時來調整，而不是因為8年以後可以達成總量，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：不會！不會！"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望有逐年詳細的目標。"],["劉部長世芳：當然。"],["牛委員煦庭：我也希望院長要立軍令狀，萬一沒有達成要負起政治責任，要有這樣的心理準備，我們才會相信政府在推動社會住宅政策、推動包租代管等等的時候，是玩真的！","最後一個題目是有關於租屋的品質，因為時間有限，我們就不多花時間論述。這個地圖是夜間人口跟戶籍人口的差異，這個在新北、臺北、桃園、新竹縣市，大體上晚上的人都比白天的人多。這代表什麼意思？除了少部分是上夜班或移工之外，大部分其實就是租屋客群居的地方。因為他不在戶籍人口之內，但是在做調查時人是在這個位置的。租屋族到底有多少人？光討論這件事搞不好可以討論30分鐘，因為租屋市場是一個黑市，沒有人能夠很清楚瞭解這個數字，所以這是一個大問題！除了剛剛講的囤房稅之外，租屋市場的透明化其實也是非常非常重要的。根據巢運調查租屋青年的困擾有：不可以設戶籍、不可以領租屋補助、不可以報稅、租金過高、價格不穩定，這些東西都會讓政府推動租屋或住宅政策的政策品質受到一定影響！所以本席希望，長期你可以推8年100萬戶，但短期之內的軟體、政策也要同步達成。本席講的就是租屋市場的透明化，本席的草案、本黨的草案，基本上都已經送進內政委員會準備排審。我想請問，中央政府針對租屋市場透明化有沒有修法規劃？有沒有具體的時間表？"],["劉部長世芳：好，我先跟委員報告一下。目前我們在百萬租屋家戶裡面，所謂的包租代管或租金補貼的方式，其實已經超過，有60萬到70萬的家戶，所以我們會針對在租屋的過程當中，包括您剛剛所說的租屋市場的津貼也好，或租屋市場的價格是否夠透明化，可以提供給更多人或者年輕人來參考。據我瞭解，臺北市政府他們願意幫忙，將網路上的租屋安全網設定為大家可以公開……"],["牛委員煦庭：可以比價，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對，看房價是不是合乎……"],["牛委員煦庭：地方政府走得比中央政府快的時候……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有……"],["牛委員煦庭：中央政府要趕快跟上，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：原來網路上就有這樣的租屋補貼方式，至於是不是夠透明化？如果有縣市政府願意投入來幫忙的話……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，看起來行政院沒有這麼快提版本，所以我們的版本就先來排審。排審的時候，希望行政院能以開放的態度跟我們充分討論，好嗎？針對租屋市場透明化這一塊，將包租代管跟租屋補貼逐步納入，讓租屋市場恢復正常，這樣大家以後才可以比較理性而且比較清楚地討論政策，希望內政部是準備好的。","最後總結一下：我們的政府樂觀，但人民保守，其實原因還是在於分配不均。94%的人擔心物價，80%的中小企業缺乏關愛，65.7%的產業受限於低薪問題。我們的房價越打越高，人民越來越苦！房價所得比失真，房價上漲四成，貸款年限大增，青年不婚不生，外帶租屋市場不透明！凡此種種都是重要的民生問題，希望卓內閣可以發揮智慧，好好來解決相關的民生問題，還給人民公平正義。以上，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提問。這個問題我們列為政府未來很重要的工作，我們全力來因應相關對策。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員質詢，謝謝卓院長備詢。","報告院會，現在我們休息15分鐘，謝謝。","休息（16時17分）","繼續開會（16時33分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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{\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 210.512, \"end\": 210.532, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 216.428, \"end\": 216.608, \"text\": \"幾百萬人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 216.428, \"end\": 216.588, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 216.588, \"end\": 216.608, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 246.314, \"end\": 249.777, \"text\": \"中小企業的數量163.3萬,占全國98.9%。中小企業從業人數913萬,占全部就業人口數79.98%。相對來講大企業大概是10%左右,另外有18.9%左右是在政府來上班。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 246.314, \"end\": 246.394, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 246.394, \"end\": 246.434, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"企\", \"start\": 246.434, \"end\": 246.534, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 246.534, \"end\": 246.654, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 246.654, \"end\": 247.215, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": 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1014.998, \"end\": 1015.118, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1015.118, \"end\": 1015.779, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"趨\"}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1015.779, \"end\": 1015.999, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 1015.999, \"end\": 1016.499, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1016.499, \"end\": 1016.7, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"恐\", \"start\": 1016.7, \"end\": 1016.98, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"怖\", \"start\": 1016.98, \"end\": 1018.001, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1018.001, \"end\": 1018.121, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1018.121, \"end\": 1018.221, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1018.221, \"end\": 1018.841, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1018.841, \"end\": 1019.001, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"蔡\", \"start\": 1019.001, \"end\": 1019.141, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1019.141, \"end\": 1019.281, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 1019.281, \"end\": 1019.382, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1019.382, \"end\": 1019.762, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 1019.762, \"end\": 1019.842, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1019.842, \"end\": 1019.922, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1019.922, \"end\": 1020.282, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 1020.282, \"end\": 1020.522, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 1020.522, \"end\": 1020.702, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 1020.702, \"end\": 1021.163, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 1021.163, \"end\": 1021.563, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"房\", \"start\": 1021.563, \"end\": 1021.763, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 1021.763, \"end\": 1021.783, \"score\": 0.367}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}]}, {\"start\": 1022.904, \"end\": 1051.041, \"text\": \"到一百一十二年度的第四季也就去年的年底啊這個數字的指數啊直逼一百四啊可以說這八年裡面住宅價格上漲了接近四成啊但今天我要先問的問題是與此同時有一個非常有趣的狀況想要跟政府來做一下探討跟院長做個探討啊內政部統計的房價所得比啊好像沒什麼變也就是說房屋價格大概漲了三成多接近四成可是我看你在房價所得比好像沒有差很多以桃園市為例啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1022.904, \"end\": 1023.564, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1023.564, \"end\": 1023.705, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 1023.705, \"end\": 1023.845, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1023.845, \"end\": 1024.005, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 1024.005, \"end\": 1024.125, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 1024.125, \"end\": 1024.285, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1024.285, \"end\": 1024.425, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 1024.425, 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\"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1049.46, \"end\": 1049.54, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 1049.54, \"end\": 1049.66, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 1049.66, \"end\": 1049.78, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1049.78, \"end\": 1050.12, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1050.12, \"end\": 1050.24, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"桃\", \"start\": 1050.24, \"end\": 1050.58, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 1050.58, \"end\": 1050.901, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 1050.901, \"end\": 1051.021, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 1051.021, \"end\": 1051.041, \"score\": 0.208}]}, {\"start\": 1051.661, \"end\": 1052.342, \"text\": \"院長或部長可以回答?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1051.661, \"end\": 1051.801, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 1051.801, \"end\": 1051.961, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1051.961, \"end\": 1052.061, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1052.061, \"end\": 1052.101, \"score\": 0.489}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1052.101, \"end\": 1052.221, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 1052.221, \"end\": 1052.322, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 1052.322, \"end\": 1052.342, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 1069.678, \"end\": 1089.372, \"text\": \"好,謝謝委員的指教。我想你大概也發現到說其實我們經濟的成長動能非常的高。所以房價在自由市場上面確實會出現這樣的狀況。那政府所推出來包括我們現在的所謂的百萬租屋、家戶的部分的追不上現在房價的速度。所以才會產生像你所說的那樣的現象。這是我們必須要來檢討改進的。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1069.678, \"end\": 1070.299, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1070.299, \"end\": 1070.539, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1070.539, \"end\": 1070.679, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 1070.679, \"end\": 1070.799, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": 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\"start\": 1381.217, \"end\": 1381.237, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 1385.56, \"end\": 1408.163, \"text\": \"委員一定是關心最近談到所謂新清安的問題那財政部已經就代後管理的加強做了很多這個因應的措施至於說稅制的問題我想再請部長來做說明跟委員報告有關房屋稅條例修正了以後在今年7月1號開始會上路那對於建商我們是按照要他時間內然後\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1385.56, \"end\": 1385.68, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1385.68, \"end\": 1385.82, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1385.82, \"end\": 1385.94, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1385.94, \"end\": 1386.281, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 1386.281, \"end\": 1386.501, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 1386.501, \"end\": 1386.701, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 1386.701, \"end\": 1387.482, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1387.482, \"end\": 1387.702, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1387.702, \"end\": 1388.023, \"score\": 0.87}, 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\"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1493.086, \"end\": 1493.226, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1493.226, \"end\": 1493.346, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1493.346, \"end\": 1493.726, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1493.726, \"end\": 1494.026, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 1494.026, \"end\": 1494.846, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 1494.846, \"end\": 1494.946, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1494.946, \"end\": 1495.127, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1495.127, \"end\": 1495.247, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1495.247, \"end\": 1495.327, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1495.327, \"end\": 1495.407, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1495.407, \"end\": 1495.567, \"score\": 0.873}, 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\"end\": 1650.096, \"text\": \"謝謝委員的關心我想您講的部分我們在8年內達到百萬租屋加戶的這個計畫一定會達得到為什麼到目前為止包括這個包租貸款或是租金補貼其實已經達到原來的目標那比較慢的部分就是所謂的直接興建設宅的部分那直接興建設宅的部分到今年年底的時候已經達到大概89萬戶我不要聽今年的我要聽一年後兩年後四年後八年後我們每一季一半年每一年都會做滾動式請你去整理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1623.154, \"end\": 1623.334, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1623.334, \"end\": 1623.654, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 1623.654, \"end\": 1623.994, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1623.994, \"end\": 1624.135, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 1624.135, \"end\": 1624.335, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 1624.335, \"end\": 1624.975, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1624.975, \"end\": 1625.095, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1625.095, \"end\": 1625.236, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1625.236, \"end\": 1625.516, \"score\": 0.92}, 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00:00:40,005\n現在跟議長報告,在我們議場來參訪的是美國南達科他州的州議會的訪問團在我們樓上。我們掌聲歡迎。歡迎各位。好,謝謝。我們接下來繼續請牛許庭委員,請。好,謝謝主席。行政院長、經濟部長有請。麻煩請左院長再次備詢,也請經濟部。\n\n2\n00:00:50,331 --> 00:01:11,297\n好,院長午安啦。這個一整天的備詢辛苦了。這個本席喔,身為年輕的國會議員喔,這個始終懷抱理想,期待我們的政府有功能,社會有良知,人民能夠獲得公平正義。薪水物價跟房價是當代台灣人民最在乎的民生指標。這個院長應該不會反對吧?\n\n3\n00:01:13,766 --> 00:01:36,707\n那我們今天就針對經濟發展分配正義居住正義來做一下綜合討論期待政府能夠提出好的表現跟回答首先我要請問院長跟部長捐低效應是什麼意思捐低效應你有聽過這個名詞嗎英文叫trickledown沒關係部長可以說明編記效應嗎不是編記啦捐低啊下盛經濟學聽過沒有\n\n4\n00:01:38,151 --> 00:01:59,424\n好沒關係我解釋給你聽喔捐低效應或稱下正經濟學是講說政策上政府的政策側重大企業透過給大企業不管是減稅也好或者是產業經濟政策的一些優惠期待讓這一群人來帶動其他人的發展透過讓一部分的人先成功然後\n\n5\n00:02:00,505 --> 00:02:16,921\n祈待他們可以合理的自己分配這些賺來的財富,從而間接的達成社會貧富差距越來越小的這件事情。這個概念叫做TrickleDown,叫做捐低效應。這個院長您相不相信這樣效果,這樣子說法的效果?\n\n6\n00:02:17,321 --> 00:02:34,290\n台灣已經是一個成熟的開發而且高科技產業非常完善的一個地方了。當一部分人先富起來那是古代中國的一個實用化,其實不適合我們現在。我們現在注重的不僅是高科技,我們希望中小微企業都能夠存不起來。\n\n7\n00:02:34,850 --> 00:02:53,540\n這就是所謂均衡台灣的理念。希望均衡對不對?很好,這是我本期今天第一個要提的概念。為什麼我會提這個當作開場?因為賴清德政府的經濟政策基本上最常被人家討論的叫五大信賴產業,對不對?半導體、人工智慧、軍工安控、次世代通訊。希望透過價值鏈的整合帶動經濟的成長,這個其實就是標準的。\n\n8\n00:02:57,862 --> 00:03:15,062\n下盛經濟學的這樣一個邏輯啊。我們討論台積電,台積電是我們護國神山。我們討論輝達,認為皮衣哥黃仁勳是臺灣之光。當我們討論這些成功的世界級的企業的時候,臺灣人都同感榮耀。這一點本席也非常同意。但本席不禁在想啊,臺灣難道只有台積電嗎?\n\n9\n00:03:16,684 --> 00:03:30,532\n我們的經濟難道只能圍繞著揮打嗎?我想請問院長,請問台灣中小企業的數量有多少?當然不是,中小企業才是台灣經濟的骨幹。沒錯,數量有多少?數量有多少?164萬。164萬,好,部長OK喔。大企業大概多少家?\n\n10\n00:03:36,428 --> 00:03:36,608\n幾百萬人\n\n11\n00:04:06,314 --> 00:04:09,777\n中小企業的數量163.3萬,占全國98.9%。中小企業從業人數913萬,占全部就業人口數79.98%。相對來講大企業大概是10%左右,另外有18.9%左右是在政府來上班。\n\n12\n00:04:31,636 --> 00:04:59,813\n我們看到這個比例不管是企業的家數或者是從業人口數就如同院長剛剛講的其實中小企業才是真正的骨幹但是我們大部分在看到整個政府在推動經濟發展跟產業政策的時候大細股、高科技、大計畫其實佔掉了大部分的篇幅本身非常擔心中小企業、服務業是被政府遺忘的一塊我很擔心在未來政府對他們的角色跟照顧恐怕是失衡的院長你對這樣的說法有沒有什麼回應\n\n13\n00:05:00,473 --> 00:05:27,868\n我們也很怕會造成這種錯誤的現象跟錯誤的觀點所以我們認為中小微企業能夠從數位轉型幫忙他做產業的升級才是國家經濟跟社會安定之道所以你現在有提一個概念叫轉型對不對還不錯有點方向但是我今天就講話我就比較不客氣了我要講一些一般人比較少接觸但是蠻殘酷的真相我先請問院長我們的晶片驅動台灣創新方案要投入多少資源\n\n14\n00:05:31,457 --> 00:05:32,577\nAI行動方案2.0我們剛啟動\n\n15\n00:05:59,753 --> 00:06:15,601\n經費部份確實的數字我現在四年400億馬上的3.0預計每年要投入120億但我要再接著追問你是數字答不出來我很擔心那院長我請教一下中小企業行動智慧應用計畫投入多少資源少的多民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫投入多少資源也很少\n\n16\n00:06:25,387 --> 00:06:33,487\n福島企業二代接班的這個叫做福島小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫剛剛院長有講的你看一下上面的圖表\n\n17\n00:06:34,332 --> 00:06:58,750\n民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫4年1億6千萬。中小企業行動智慧應用計畫5年1億4千萬。輔導小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫2024年剛剛上路第一年7千7百萬。我們經濟部有中小企業還跟新創並在一起叫中小企業與創新署。年度預算只有44億4千萬。\n\n18\n00:07:00,811 --> 00:07:28,428\n跟前面我們剛剛講的晶片驅動台灣計畫十年三千億AI行動2.0四年四百億未來3.0一年一百二十億是不是資源的投入跟政府的政策的重心有一點點落差?報告委員這一部分的話我們所投入的預算是以以後產出的這個效益為主的這個計算所以這個對這個晶創的部分跟這個AI的部分都是以\n\n19\n00:07:28,989 --> 00:07:29,998\n三年後五年後的產詞\n\n20\n00:07:31,437 --> 00:08:00,043\n作為推估的一部分。我今天我絕對不反對投資AI投資半導體。他是我們的護國神山我非常支持。但是我擔心的是政府角色的失衡。我為什麼開頭要用特別的名詞叫捐低經濟學。就是因為你永遠都只有看到龍頭的時候。你期待龍頭帶動產業鏈這個概念都沒錯。但是我要請問比如說精創產業整個半導體產業鏈受惠這3000億的資源總共有多少間企業會受惠?大的小的加起來整條半導體產業鏈大概多少家?\n\n21\n00:08:01,603 --> 00:08:20,638\n報告委員,我們金創台灣計畫,我們現在正在修正,我們會把晶片的應用,AI的應用的產業,那就是包括中小企業,全部會納進來,所以我們在應用的部分...以本席了解的資料,整個半導體產業鏈的上中下游,大的小的都算了,400家左右。\n\n22\n00:08:21,198 --> 00:08:44,753\n你看我們剛剛討論中小企業總共的家數是160幾萬家。這是我擔心的事情。第二個我也很想問你這個AI的行動計畫它可以造福多少產業?可以造福多少從業人員?對不對?這是我今天想要問的問題嗎?這是我的認同委員就是說我們在晶片產業跟AI它的應用的部分我們會推廣我們現在正在規劃這個所以會增加中小企業\n\n23\n00:08:45,673 --> 00:09:00,502\n我想不管是院長部長跟主委應該可以聽得出來啦就是說現在看起來資源的投入啊失衡的狀況好像比較明顯一些其實很多中小企業的專案甚至我們去爬資料啊甚至都沒有辦法在新聞媒體上露出啊因為太小了\n\n24\n00:09:00,962 --> 00:09:25,171\n相比這些大企業這些旗艦這小到沒有被人家關注但不能因為他小就遺忘他這是我給這個新團隊的第一個提醒希望院長可以合理的做調整而不要忽略了大部分從業人員跟基層產業的需求好不好這第一個國科會在討論這個議程的時候他有相當好的一個方向跟分析的結果將來一定從\n\n25\n00:09:26,031 --> 00:09:42,266\n不僅從高科技裡面還要再分高科技裡面的強弱還要落實到中小微企業主委曾經報告過這樣的計畫畢竟新團隊才剛上任我們會願意給一些時間但我希望接下來我們在追蹤這個題目的時候不要再看到這種大細膜這種狀況再來我要問喔這個股票指數屢創歷史新高國內國發會的景氣燈號攀升藍燈慢慢都變紅燈數據上看起來經濟前景很好院長看好台灣未來的經濟嗎\n\n26\n00:09:53,951 --> 00:09:57,813\n好,謝謝。但我要講的是人民的落差跟一般的政府也許是國外企業的落差\n\n27\n00:10:12,340 --> 00:10:37,902\n從覆面的總體經濟數據來看好像狀況不錯但是中央大學的臺灣經濟發展研究中心一直以來他有長時間針對家庭經濟信心、經濟景氣信心、就業信心、物價水準、購買耐久財時機跟投資股票的時機等6項信心指數進行長時間的民意調查那目前我就直接把圖表秀出來了人民的想法跟觀感跟政府的漂亮的數據其實有不小的落差\n\n28\n00:10:38,422 --> 00:10:55,603\n家庭經濟信心認為不太好的大概有44%左右對於經濟景氣的信心覺得不太好的大概37%到38%就業機會的信心覺得不太好的超過一半56%物價水準信心非常可怕認為物價未來會上漲的9成多\n\n29\n00:10:57,110 --> 00:11:10,113\n股票雖然上了兩萬多點大家都覺得很厲害但是有超過三分之二的臺灣人民不認為現在是一個投資股票的好時機啊。院長為什麼人民的感受跟政府的數據有一個顯著的落差?\n\n30\n00:11:10,916 --> 00:11:31,843\n我承認人民的感受我們要讓他更真實更溫暖更直接所以我說過一句話就是任何經濟的發展是繁榮的指標但是公平的分配才是文明國家的象徵公平的分配其實這個非常有切合本席在問的主題為什麼數字很好可是大部分人悲觀其實就是通貨膨脹的問題\n\n31\n00:11:33,524 --> 00:11:51,521\n有超過9494%的人認為物價會上漲經濟成長的好處顯然被更高的通膨給壓過去了嘛很多科技業的榮景不見得是很多中小企業所能感受的這是另外一個本席剛剛有提到的問題所以分配是非常重要的所以我們接下來談一談薪水的問題喔這個根據喔\n\n32\n00:11:54,303 --> 00:12:13,908\n數據資料庫的顯示我們的勞工的每月明目薪資從2020年到2024年大概成長了大概3000多塊接近一成提升的幅度不小但是其實更多人關注的是所謂的實質薪資的上漲率實質經常性薪資在同樣的時間內就是連續下降院長這代表什麼意思我們薪資的結構還是要讓他\n\n33\n00:12:17,558 --> 00:12:24,766\n這增加人民的所得還是要讓它增加人民的所得因為薪資名目的上漲比不上通貨膨脹的速度啊\n\n34\n00:12:25,438 --> 00:12:48,987\n通膨嚴重基本上全民受苦啊,受苦程度也有大有小,因為各行各業心情不太一樣。行政院主計總署的心情平台,這個用我們政府的資料,2023年統計資料顯示,我們總共有111類的產業,大家講百工百業,其中有73個類別的產業,每個月包含獎金在內,包含加班費在內,薪水其實低於5萬。\n\n35\n00:12:50,828 --> 00:13:11,437\n這73類的產業占全體產業類別65.7%,其中又以服務業跟中小企業為大宗。這就為什麼我開宗明一定要講分配是很重要的。面對通膨帶動的成本全面上漲,請問院長要怎麼從困境中找出路?打算用什麼樣的方法解決企業薪資停止成長的情況?院長現在有想法嗎?\n\n36\n00:13:12,418 --> 00:13:25,473\n那政府當然會透過每一年適當的調薪,看能不能帶動企業對整個員工的調薪。那如果說我們的經濟發展是向好的方向發展,更期待企業、僱主能夠將這個利益能夠\n\n37\n00:13:27,415 --> 00:13:27,996\n我們可以公開的呼籲\n\n38\n00:13:43,479 --> 00:14:01,878\n我們要討論的是一樣本期在乎的是中小企業的事啊針對中小企業的加薪減稅方案其實都透過修法的方式來處理嘛對不對但是一樣喔這個2016年我們針對這個東西做加薪減稅嘛也就是中小企業給員工加薪我政府給稅率優惠這個東西花了多少錢院長跟部長有掌握嗎\n\n39\n00:14:03,487 --> 00:14:25,475\n這個有點細節啦。2016年這個計畫第一次推出來的稅市支出1043萬,1000多萬而已。2017年753萬,然後這個計畫就中斷了。馬上要新上路,因為最近就在討論修法的方案。從高估的角度,高估最多最多也就是2.63億。如果低估的話可能只有5000萬。\n\n40\n00:14:27,055 --> 00:14:52,285\n對照我們剛剛給那些大企業成功的企業的各式各樣的政策優惠同樣在加薪減稅的這一塊的政府投入的資源本期期期以為不夠真的是不夠經濟政策的篇幅跟資源是政府最好的招邀金如果我們的政府一直圍繞強勢產業來訂定政策投入的資源是以百億為千億為單位就期待這些企業成為火車頭要帶動產業的成長要成為原動力這個就是\n\n41\n00:14:55,147 --> 00:15:14,218\n我開頭講的叫做經濟學上面的捐低效應。這是這樣的政策邏輯。但是不管藍綠過去這一段時間大家都是用這一套的邏輯去想像台灣的經濟政策。但從新制的數字人民的信心指數來看顯然沒有捐低的效果。反而形成了強者很強弱者更弱的分配問題。\n\n42\n00:15:15,299 --> 00:15:29,655\n我本期認為這叫方向錯誤如果政府沒有辦法及時來做調整我認為這是有負人民的託付所以本期期許在第一段的這個質詢裡面期許新政府能夠察覺問題調整政策對於中小企業服務業的發展\n\n43\n00:15:30,456 --> 00:15:31,637\n院長講到目前還可以接受嗎?\n\n44\n00:15:54,123 --> 00:16:03,197\n謝謝委員的觀點總體經濟還是很重要我們這一次很多的閣員都來自產業我們希望帶進來產業的效率最近我們也會對經濟問題在院內成立一個諮詢的委員會當中國發會經濟部財政部就會就\n\n45\n00:16:09,306 --> 00:16:34,796\n現在所遇到的問題跟長久以來無法解決的問題提出一個新的觀點跟看法我們期待政策在這樣子的平台搭建起來之後針對中小企業針對服務業一定要投入特別的資源沒關係因為我時間有限啦我期待啦樂觀期待你可以有像樣的這個做法但因為我們要進入到第二階段第二階段我們要談的是房價所以經濟部長等各位可以先回座休息我們內政部長有請\n\n46\n00:16:43,370 --> 00:17:01,783\n好接著我們談房價的問題根據內政部這個從全國各縣市的實價登錄交易資料顯示出來的結果可以發現住宅價格這個上升的趨勢比物價還要恐怖105年也就2016年蔡政府上臺第一年當成基準來計算房價指數100\n\n47\n00:17:02,904 --> 00:17:31,041\n到一百一十二年度的第四季也就去年的年底啊這個數字的指數啊直逼一百四啊可以說這八年裡面住宅價格上漲了接近四成啊但今天我要先問的問題是與此同時有一個非常有趣的狀況想要跟政府來做一下探討跟院長做個探討啊內政部統計的房價所得比啊好像沒什麼變也就是說房屋價格大概漲了三成多接近四成可是我看你在房價所得比好像沒有差很多以桃園市為例啊\n\n48\n00:17:31,661 --> 00:17:32,342\n院長或部長可以回答?\n\n49\n00:17:49,678 --> 00:18:09,372\n好,謝謝委員的指教。我想你大概也發現到說其實我們經濟的成長動能非常的高。所以房價在自由市場上面確實會出現這樣的狀況。那政府所推出來包括我們現在的所謂的百萬租屋、家戶的部分的追不上現在房價的速度。所以才會產生像你所說的那樣的現象。這是我們必須要來檢討改進的。\n\n50\n00:18:11,298 --> 00:18:39,151\n這個一樣是百萬,這個待會我們會針對百萬租入這個政策來做探討。我只舉一個例子,我講這個數據的不合理性,我希望政府會去做一下思考,是不是太樂觀了。比如說2020年,這個本期的選區,A級重化區,那時候大概一坪的房屋價格25萬。到2024年、2023年的年底左右,大概是35萬。其實上漲的幅度差不多就是四成。也就是說一個一千萬的兩房一廳一位的這樣一個房型,到了最近差不多都是一千四百多萬,甚至有更高的一個狀況來出現了。\n\n51\n00:18:40,632 --> 00:18:56,900\n那房價所得比的意思7.6表示不吃不喝7.6年可以買齊1000萬的房子我們就以這個為例子年收入的所得大概是131萬那到了2023年如果房價從1000萬變成1400萬的時候那照理來講我這個房價所得比我就用同樣的標準130幾萬的標準來去算的話房價所得比會超過10啊\n\n52\n00:19:01,963 --> 00:19:02,263\n那我要問阿\n\n53\n00:19:30,163 --> 00:19:53,092\n為什麼房價會越打越高呢?我們還是要回到問題的根源啊。請院長評價一下蔡政府過去8年針對這個熱錢湧入房地產市場。我們怎麼樣打擊炒作?你給這樣子的這一連串的政策措施打幾分?我們也在過去就推動了多元的這個社會住宅政策。也從稅制方面推動房地合一稅。\n\n54\n00:19:54,431 --> 00:20:21,684\n打擊短期炒作這個手段都有在做政府還是會持續做很多公共建設的開發包括軌道交通的開發這種開發都會助長當地這個房價跟生活圈的改善所以房價的高漲很多社會的因素所以院長覺得很正常而且也覺得不用改善但是政府就從居住正義的角度去做更多的平價的可以讓年輕人可以\n\n55\n00:20:22,344 --> 00:20:50,574\n注的安心的這個角色去做但是我們在公共建設方面還是不能停下來當然當然不應該停下來公共建設是改善所有人民的生活品質嘛這本身非常同意但是高房價是一個很大的社會問題從80年代以來喔台灣的住宅政策基本上就崇尚住宅當商品市場萬能論叫去公共化的思維讓房價回歸市場機制就好啦那政府基本上雖然有少數的打擊措施但大部分都是叫做補貼式的政策啊\n\n56\n00:20:50,934 --> 00:21:19,201\n每期名約降低青年的負擔其實就是變相鼓勵人民買房截至2022年底我國的住宅自有率高達84.6%但同時房屋貸款從20年變成30年30年變成35年甚至出現40年的房貸多少的年輕世代因為這樣子的關係陷入防止孩子二選一的困境養了孩子無力買房背了房貸無力生子\n\n57\n00:21:19,921 --> 00:21:43,090\n面對民怨的主要對應手段我們看到政府過去的時間還是加碼加碼再加碼補貼補貼再補貼至於真正有機會能夠降低房價抑制投機的市場面的改革恐怕是牛步向前政府用社會福利的角度提供補貼租屋補貼是一種新清安的利息補貼是一種但真正的問題從來就是居住世代的不公跟市場的扭曲\n\n58\n00:21:43,530 --> 00:22:08,908\n如果我們還是繼續只是用社會福利的角度提供社宅提供補貼來只有這樣子的角度來看待住宅政策。大家想要討好青年又不敢得罪建商。侃公家之慨卻沒有辦法解決問題。本期主張政府的思維應該轉從社會福利轉向社會投資啊。什麼叫社會投資?大家都講青年世代國家的未來。他們不應該是投資客獲利的工具。不應該也不...\n\n59\n00:22:09,688 --> 00:22:33,984\n也不應該絕望,不應該對未來躺平以對。解決青年的住房問題,就是解決青年少子女化的問題。就是找回國家的未來最直接、最有效、也最務實的方式。我們需要政府將住宅問題再公共化,讓它回歸使用價值,要從整體市場面推動改革方案,在於改善買不起跟租不好的兩大困境,來確保居住權。\n\n60\n00:22:34,924 --> 00:23:01,237\n財政府八年的打房措施本席市政委是不及格的。深水區的改革始終不願意碰觸。但是德賴清德總統曾經提過囤房稅2.0的想法也馬上要上路。請院長或部長簡單說明具體的內容。這樣的政策能不能增加建商的持有成本,避免囤積居奇,大搞限售鎖盤。什麼時候推動上路?預期的成效跟目標又是什麼?囤房稅2.0可能要請財政部來回答。\n\n61\n00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:28,163\n委員一定是關心最近談到所謂新清安的問題那財政部已經就代後管理的加強做了很多這個因應的措施至於說稅制的問題我想再請部長來做說明跟委員報告有關房屋稅條例修正了以後在今年7月1號開始會上路那對於建商我們是按照要他時間內然後\n\n62\n00:23:29,244 --> 00:23:29,484\n這很重要。\n\n63\n00:23:52,867 --> 00:24:14,765\n因為我們前面當然不管是院長或是部長大部分的時間都談建設社宅都談租屋補貼都談包租貸款這些我也都支持可是我剛剛講的政府的邏輯不能只有社會福利要有市場面的改革囤房稅就是一種市場面的改革而且你政府已經推了方案甚至即將上路沒有什麼道理院長部長不曉得的好不好剛剛財政部長講的很清楚\n\n64\n00:24:15,765 --> 00:24:34,794\n這個囤房稅會針對建商只有兩年的寬限期嘛,如果兩年內不把該賣的都賣掉,後面就會增加他的持有成本。請問院長,請問兩位部長,這樣子的一個政策上路之後,你有沒有預設目標?比如說我要把房價指數的往上的趨勢壓平,或者是有沒有具體的一個數字,大概多少時間內還有多少信心可以完成?\n\n65\n00:24:35,575 --> 00:24:35,595\n當然\n\n66\n00:24:50,865 --> 00:24:56,887\n內容部長講得很清楚,但是我的問題是什麼?我的問題是政策目標。也就是說我要把房屋指數往下降,降多少?\n\n67\n00:25:16,670 --> 00:25:35,843\n或者是有什麼樣的一個具體的方向?你們在推動這個的時候總有一個政策成效吧?它預期的成效會是什麼?比如說我因為這樣的兩年寬限期,全國中央歸戶這樣的一個政策設計,多少年內可以釋出多少餘屋,改善市場供需不均衡的狀況?你們有相關的數據跟政策目標的具體想法嗎?\n\n68\n00:25:37,591 --> 00:25:37,911\n好!沒關係!好!\n\n69\n00:25:52,671 --> 00:26:12,800\n我第一次都沒關係,但是我希望後面我們在追蹤題目的時候,各式各樣的數據,院長要把它記在腦子裡面,大的方向至少要有。比如說我就覺得你們可以講25萬戶社會住宅,20幾萬戶的這個包租貸款,租屋補貼,50萬的租屋補貼,你看我都會背了,對不對?這是你也會背,大家都會背,可是不會只有這個嘛,對不對?好,你既然講剛剛大家擅長的我就來講。\n\n70\n00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:34,837\n劉思芳部長在內政委員會答詢的時候也講2032年以前新辦25萬戶社會住宅25萬戶包租代管50萬戶的租金補貼提供100萬戶的這樣子的一個供給量這樣的政策目標八年的大目標大家都可以講但是我很好奇的是萬一如果做不到誰負責怎麼負責\n\n71\n00:26:36,098 --> 00:27:01,853\n但是我們總不能從現在就惡意推定你八年之後一定做不到,這樣子好像也太看衰政府,我們也不會這麼不講道理。但是如果你只用八年的大目標去框這個東西的話,我覺得恐怕對於大家追蹤政策的成效來講是有負面的影響的。請問有沒有更細緻的,比如說逐年或是每兩年他的政策目標是什麼,方便所有的關注住宅議題的所有的立委也好公民團體也好可以有效來追蹤,請問有想法嗎?\n\n72\n00:27:03,154 --> 00:27:30,096\n謝謝委員的關心我想您講的部分我們在8年內達到百萬租屋加戶的這個計畫一定會達得到為什麼到目前為止包括這個包租貸款或是租金補貼其實已經達到原來的目標那比較慢的部分就是所謂的直接興建設宅的部分那直接興建設宅的部分到今年年底的時候已經達到大概89萬戶我不要聽今年的我要聽一年後兩年後四年後八年後我們每一季一半年每一年都會做滾動式請你去整理\n\n73\n00:27:31,397 --> 00:27:54,264\n你每兩年有一個兩年的階段目標嘛。比如說分四個階段來達成。這樣是不是大家追蹤比較具體。中間出了問題我可能會及時來調整。而不是說啊1月8年以後可以達成總量。我不要好不好。我希望有逐年詳細的目標。我也希望院長要力均力壯。萬一沒有達成是要有負起政治責任的。這樣子的一個心理準備。我們才會相信這政府在推動社會住宅政策、推動包租貸款等等的時候是玩真的齁。\n\n74\n00:27:55,004 --> 00:28:11,728\n最後一個題目是有關於租屋的品質因為時間有限我們就不多花時間來做論述了這個地圖是夜間人口跟戶籍人口的差異這個在新北、台北、桃園、新竹、縣市大體上晚上的人都比白天人多意思是什麼\n\n75\n00:28:12,088 --> 00:28:41,263\n除了有少部分是夜班或是移工之外大部分其實就租屋客群居的地方啦因為他不在戶籍人口之內但是在性命調查的時候他是被統計在人在這個位置的這個租屋族到底有多少人啊我們光是討論這件事搞不好可以討論30分鐘因為租屋市場是一個黑市啊我們沒有人能夠很清楚的了解這樣子的一個數字這是一個大的問題所以說除了剛剛講的囤房稅之外啊租屋市場的透明化其實也是非常非常重要的根據朝院的調查租屋的青年的困擾不可以\n\n76\n00:28:41,823 --> 00:28:42,263\n本期的草案\n\n77\n00:29:03,949 --> 00:29:12,701\n本黨的草案基本上都已經送進內政委員會準備來做排審。我想請問中央政府針對朱市長透明化有沒有修法的規劃有沒有具體的時間表?\n\n78\n00:29:13,852 --> 00:29:34,838\n我先跟委員報告一下目前我們在百萬租家戶裡面所謂的包租貸款或是租金補貼的方式其實已經超過有60萬到70萬的這樣的家戶那所以我們會針對說他在租屋的過程當中包括您剛所說的這個租屋市場的津貼也好或是租屋市場的價格是否夠透明化可以提供給更多或是年輕人來做參考\n\n79\n00:29:36,178 --> 00:29:47,602\n那我現在瞭解說像臺北市政府他們願意呢來幫忙就是把這個所有在這個網路上面的這個租屋的這個安全網設定一個讓大家可以公開跟透明化來看一下這個房價是不是合乎的規定。\n\n80\n00:29:53,224 --> 00:30:14,421\n原來在網路上面就有這樣的租屋補貼的方式,但是它是不是夠透明化?那有願意縣市政府要投入來幫忙的話?沒關係,如果看起來沒有這麼快提版本,那我們的版本就先來排審。那排審的時候,我希望行政院用開放的態度,我們充分來做討論,好嗎?針對租屋市場透明這一塊,包租代管跟租屋補貼逐步的來納入,讓租屋市場恢復正常。\n\n81\n00:30:14,921 --> 00:30:33,552\n大家以後才可以比較理性也比較清楚的討論政策,希望內政部是準備好了。好,最後總結一下,我們的政府樂觀但人民保守,其實原因還是分配不均。94%的人擔心物價,80%的中小企業缺乏關愛,65.7%的產業受限低薪問題,我們的房價越打越高,人民越來越苦。\n\n82\n00:30:34,172 --> 00:30:34,352\n謝謝委員的提問\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n15146\t40005\t現在跟議長報告,在我們議場來參訪的是美國南達科他州的州議會的訪問團在我們樓上。我們掌聲歡迎。歡迎各位。好,謝謝。我們接下來繼續請牛許庭委員,請。好,謝謝主席。行政院長、經濟部長有請。麻煩請左院長再次備詢,也請經濟部。\n50331\t71297\t好,院長午安啦。這個一整天的備詢辛苦了。這個本席喔,身為年輕的國會議員喔,這個始終懷抱理想,期待我們的政府有功能,社會有良知,人民能夠獲得公平正義。薪水物價跟房價是當代台灣人民最在乎的民生指標。這個院長應該不會反對吧?\n73766\t96707\t那我們今天就針對經濟發展分配正義居住正義來做一下綜合討論期待政府能夠提出好的表現跟回答首先我要請問院長跟部長捐低效應是什麼意思捐低效應你有聽過這個名詞嗎英文叫trickle down沒關係部長可以說明編記效應嗎不是編記啦捐低啊下盛經濟學聽過沒有\n98151\t119424\t好沒關係我解釋給你聽喔捐低效應或稱下正經濟學是講說政策上政府的政策側重大企業透過給大企業不管是減稅也好或者是產業經濟政策的一些優惠期待讓這一群人來帶動其他人的發展透過讓一部分的人先成功然後\n120505\t136921\t祈待他們可以合理的自己分配這些賺來的財富,從而間接的達成社會貧富差距越來越小的這件事情。這個概念叫做Trickle Down,叫做捐低效應。這個院長您相不相信這樣效果,這樣子說法的效果?\n137321\t154290\t台灣已經是一個成熟的開發而且高科技產業非常完善的一個地方了。當一部分人先富起來那是古代中國的一個實用化,其實不適合我們現在。我們現在注重的不僅是高科技,我們希望中小微企業都能夠存不起來。\n154850\t173540\t這就是所謂均衡台灣的理念。希望均衡對不對?很好,這是我本期今天第一個要提的概念。為什麼我會提這個當作開場?因為賴清德政府的經濟政策基本上最常被人家討論的叫五大信賴產業,對不對?半導體、人工智慧、軍工安控、次世代通訊。希望透過價值鏈的整合帶動經濟的成長,這個其實就是標準的。\n177862\t195062\t下盛經濟學的這樣一個邏輯啊。我們討論台積電,台積電是我們護國神山。我們討論輝達,認為皮衣哥黃仁勳是臺灣之光。當我們討論這些成功的世界級的企業的時候,臺灣人都同感榮耀。這一點本席也非常同意。但本席不禁在想啊,臺灣難道只有台積電嗎?\n196684\t210532\t我們的經濟難道只能圍繞著揮打嗎?我想請問院長,請問台灣中小企業的數量有多少?當然不是,中小企業才是台灣經濟的骨幹。沒錯,數量有多少?數量有多少?164萬。164萬,好,部長OK喔。大企業大概多少家?\n216428\t216608\t幾百萬人\n246314\t249777\t中小企業的數量163.3萬,占全國98.9%。中小企業從業人數913萬,占全部就業人口數79.98%。相對來講大企業大概是10%左右,另外有18.9%左右是在政府來上班。\n271636\t299813\t我們看到這個比例不管是企業的家數或者是從業人口數就如同院長剛剛講的其實中小企業才是真正的骨幹但是我們大部分在看到整個政府在推動經濟發展跟產業政策的時候大細股、高科技、大計畫其實佔掉了大部分的篇幅本身非常擔心中小企業、服務業是被政府遺忘的一塊我很擔心在未來政府對他們的角色跟照顧恐怕是失衡的院長你對這樣的說法有沒有什麼回應\n300473\t327868\t我們也很怕會造成這種錯誤的現象跟錯誤的觀點所以我們認為中小微企業能夠從數位轉型幫忙他做產業的升級才是國家經濟跟社會安定之道所以你現在有提一個概念叫轉型對不對還不錯有點方向但是我今天就講話我就比較不客氣了我要講一些一般人比較少接觸但是蠻殘酷的真相我先請問院長我們的晶片驅動台灣創新方案要投入多少資源\n331457\t332577\tAI行動方案2.0我們剛啟動\n359753\t375601\t經費部份確實的數字我現在四年400億馬上的3.0預計每年要投入120億但我要再接著追問你是數字答不出來我很擔心那院長我請教一下中小企業行動智慧應用計畫投入多少資源少的多民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫投入多少資源也很少\n385387\t393487\t福島企業二代接班的這個叫做福島小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫剛剛院長有講的你看一下上面的圖表\n394332\t418750\t民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫4年1億6千萬。中小企業行動智慧應用計畫5年1億4千萬。輔導小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫2024年剛剛上路第一年7千7百萬。我們經濟部有中小企業還跟新創並在一起叫中小企業與創新署。年度預算只有44億4千萬。\n420811\t448428\t跟前面我們剛剛講的晶片驅動台灣計畫十年三千億AI行動2.0四年四百億未來3.0一年一百二十億是不是資源的投入跟政府的政策的重心有一點點落差?報告委員這一部分的話我們所投入的預算是以以後產出的這個效益為主的這個計算所以這個對這個晶創的部分跟這個AI的部分都是以\n448989\t449998\t三年後五年後的產詞\n451437\t480043\t作為推估的一部分。我今天我絕對不反對投資AI投資半導體。他是我們的護國神山我非常支持。但是我擔心的是政府角色的失衡。我為什麼開頭要用特別的名詞叫捐低經濟學。就是因為你永遠都只有看到龍頭的時候。你期待龍頭帶動產業鏈這個概念都沒錯。但是我要請問比如說精創產業整個半導體產業鏈受惠這3000億的資源總共有多少間企業會受惠?大的小的加起來整條半導體產業鏈大概多少家?\n481603\t500638\t報告委員,我們金創台灣計畫,我們現在正在修正,我們會把晶片的應用,AI的應用的產業,那就是包括中小企業,全部會納進來,所以我們在應用的部分...以本席了解的資料,整個半導體產業鏈的上中下游,大的小的都算了,400家左右。\n501198\t524753\t你看我們剛剛討論中小企業總共的家數是160幾萬家。這是我擔心的事情。第二個我也很想問你這個AI的行動計畫它可以造福多少產業?可以造福多少從業人員?對不對?這是我今天想要問的問題嗎?這是我的認同委員就是說我們在晶片產業跟AI它的應用的部分我們會推廣我們現在正在規劃這個所以會增加中小企業\n525673\t540502\t我想不管是院長部長跟主委應該可以聽得出來啦就是說現在看起來資源的投入啊失衡的狀況好像比較明顯一些其實很多中小企業的專案甚至我們去爬資料啊甚至都沒有辦法在新聞媒體上露出啊因為太小了\n540962\t565171\t相比這些大企業這些旗艦這小到沒有被人家關注但不能因為他小就遺忘他這是我給這個新團隊的第一個提醒希望院長可以合理的做調整而不要忽略了大部分從業人員跟基層產業的需求好不好這第一個國科會在討論這個議程的時候他有相當好的一個方向跟分析的結果將來一定從\n566031\t582266\t不僅從高科技裡面還要再分高科技裡面的強弱還要落實到中小微企業主委曾經報告過這樣的計畫畢竟新團隊才剛上任我們會願意給一些時間但我希望接下來我們在追蹤這個題目的時候不要再看到這種大細膜這種狀況再來我要問喔這個股票指數屢創歷史新高國內國發會的景氣燈號攀升藍燈慢慢都變紅燈數據上看起來經濟前景很好院長看好台灣未來的經濟嗎\n593951\t597813\t好,謝謝。但我要講的是人民的落差跟一般的政府也許是國外企業的落差\n612340\t637902\t從覆面的總體經濟數據來看好像狀況不錯但是中央大學的臺灣經濟發展研究中心一直以來他有長時間針對家庭經濟信心、經濟景氣信心、就業信心、物價水準、購買耐久財時機跟投資股票的時機等6項信心指數進行長時間的民意調查那目前我就直接把圖表秀出來了人民的想法跟觀感跟政府的漂亮的數據其實有不小的落差\n638422\t655603\t家庭經濟信心認為不太好的大概有44%左右對於經濟景氣的信心覺得不太好的大概37%到38%就業機會的信心覺得不太好的超過一半56%物價水準信心非常可怕認為物價未來會上漲的9成多\n657110\t670113\t股票雖然上了兩萬多點大家都覺得很厲害但是有超過三分之二的臺灣人民不認為現在是一個投資股票的好時機啊。院長為什麼人民的感受跟政府的數據有一個顯著的落差?\n670916\t691843\t我承認人民的感受我們要讓他更真實更溫暖更直接所以我說過一句話就是任何經濟的發展是繁榮的指標但是公平的分配才是文明國家的象徵公平的分配其實這個非常有切合本席在問的主題為什麼數字很好可是大部分人悲觀其實就是通貨膨脹的問題\n693524\t711521\t有超過9494%的人認為物價會上漲經濟成長的好處顯然被更高的通膨給壓過去了嘛很多科技業的榮景不見得是很多中小企業所能感受的這是另外一個本席剛剛有提到的問題所以分配是非常重要的所以我們接下來談一談薪水的問題喔這個根據喔\n714303\t733908\t數據資料庫的顯示我們的勞工的每月明目薪資從2020年到2024年大概成長了大概3000多塊接近一成提升的幅度不小但是其實更多人關注的是所謂的實質薪資的上漲率實質經常性薪資在同樣的時間內就是連續下降院長這代表什麼意思我們薪資的結構還是要讓他\n737558\t744766\t這增加人民的所得還是要讓它增加人民的所得因為薪資名目的上漲比不上通貨膨脹的速度啊\n745438\t768987\t通膨嚴重基本上全民受苦啊,受苦程度也有大有小,因為各行各業心情不太一樣。行政院主計總署的心情平台,這個用我們政府的資料,2023年統計資料顯示,我們總共有111類的產業,大家講百工百業,其中有73個類別的產業,每個月包含獎金在內,包含加班費在內,薪水其實低於5萬。\n770828\t791437\t這73類的產業占全體產業類別65.7%,其中又以服務業跟中小企業為大宗。這就為什麼我開宗明一定要講分配是很重要的。面對通膨帶動的成本全面上漲,請問院長要怎麼從困境中找出路?打算用什麼樣的方法解決企業薪資停止成長的情況?院長現在有想法嗎?\n792418\t805473\t那政府當然會透過每一年適當的調薪,看能不能帶動企業對整個員工的調薪。那如果說我們的經濟發展是向好的方向發展,更期待企業、僱主能夠將這個利益能夠\n807415\t807996\t我們可以公開的呼籲\n823479\t841878\t我們要討論的是一樣本期在乎的是中小企業的事啊針對中小企業的加薪減稅方案其實都透過修法的方式來處理嘛對不對但是一樣喔這個2016年我們針對這個東西做加薪減稅嘛也就是中小企業給員工加薪我政府給稅率優惠這個東西花了多少錢院長跟部長有掌握嗎\n843487\t865475\t這個有點細節啦。2016年這個計畫第一次推出來的稅市支出1043萬,1000多萬而已。2017年753萬,然後這個計畫就中斷了。馬上要新上路,因為最近就在討論修法的方案。從高估的角度,高估最多最多也就是2.63億。如果低估的話可能只有5000萬。\n867055\t892285\t對照我們剛剛給那些大企業成功的企業的各式各樣的政策優惠同樣在加薪減稅的這一塊的政府投入的資源本期期期以為不夠真的是不夠經濟政策的篇幅跟資源是政府最好的招邀金如果我們的政府一直圍繞強勢產業來訂定政策投入的資源是以百億為千億為單位就期待這些企業成為火車頭要帶動產業的成長要成為原動力這個就是\n895147\t914218\t我開頭講的叫做經濟學上面的捐低效應。這是這樣的政策邏輯。但是不管藍綠過去這一段時間大家都是用這一套的邏輯去想像台灣的經濟政策。但從新制的數字人民的信心指數來看顯然沒有捐低的效果。反而形成了強者很強弱者更弱的分配問題。\n915299\t929655\t我本期認為這叫方向錯誤如果政府沒有辦法及時來做調整我認為這是有負人民的託付所以本期期許在第一段的這個質詢裡面期許新政府能夠察覺問題調整政策對於中小企業服務業的發展\n930456\t931637\t院長講到目前還可以接受嗎?\n954123\t963197\t謝謝委員的觀點總體經濟還是很重要我們這一次很多的閣員都來自產業我們希望帶進來產業的效率最近我們也會對經濟問題在院內成立一個諮詢的委員會當中國發會經濟部財政部就會就\n969306\t994796\t現在所遇到的問題跟長久以來無法解決的問題提出一個新的觀點跟看法我們期待政策在這樣子的平台搭建起來之後針對中小企業針對服務業一定要投入特別的資源沒關係因為我時間有限啦我期待啦樂觀期待你可以有像樣的這個做法但因為我們要進入到第二階段第二階段我們要談的是房價所以經濟部長等各位可以先回座休息我們內政部長有請\n1003370\t1021783\t好接著我們談房價的問題根據內政部這個從全國各縣市的實價登錄交易資料顯示出來的結果可以發現住宅價格這個上升的趨勢比物價還要恐怖105年也就2016年蔡政府上臺第一年當成基準來計算房價指數100\n1022904\t1051041\t到一百一十二年度的第四季也就去年的年底啊這個數字的指數啊直逼一百四啊可以說這八年裡面住宅價格上漲了接近四成啊但今天我要先問的問題是與此同時有一個非常有趣的狀況想要跟政府來做一下探討跟院長做個探討啊內政部統計的房價所得比啊好像沒什麼變也就是說房屋價格大概漲了三成多接近四成可是我看你在房價所得比好像沒有差很多以桃園市為例啊\n1051661\t1052342\t院長或部長可以回答?\n1069678\t1089372\t好,謝謝委員的指教。我想你大概也發現到說其實我們經濟的成長動能非常的高。所以房價在自由市場上面確實會出現這樣的狀況。那政府所推出來包括我們現在的所謂的百萬租屋、家戶的部分的追不上現在房價的速度。所以才會產生像你所說的那樣的現象。這是我們必須要來檢討改進的。\n1091298\t1119151\t這個一樣是百萬,這個待會我們會針對百萬租入這個政策來做探討。我只舉一個例子,我講這個數據的不合理性,我希望政府會去做一下思考,是不是太樂觀了。比如說2020年,這個本期的選區,A級重化區,那時候大概一坪的房屋價格25萬。到2024年、2023年的年底左右,大概是35萬。其實上漲的幅度差不多就是四成。也就是說一個一千萬的兩房一廳一位的這樣一個房型,到了最近差不多都是一千四百多萬,甚至有更高的一個狀況來出現了。\n1120632\t1136900\t那房價所得比的意思7.6表示不吃不喝7.6年可以買齊1000萬的房子我們就以這個為例子年收入的所得大概是131萬那到了2023年如果房價從1000萬變成1400萬的時候那照理來講我這個房價所得比我就用同樣的標準130幾萬的標準來去算的話房價所得比會超過10啊\n1141963\t1142263\t那我要問阿\n1170163\t1193092\t為什麼房價會越打越高呢?我們還是要回到問題的根源啊。請院長評價一下蔡政府過去8年針對這個熱錢湧入房地產市場。我們怎麼樣打擊炒作?你給這樣子的這一連串的政策措施打幾分?我們也在過去就推動了多元的這個社會住宅政策。也從稅制方面推動房地合一稅。\n1194431\t1221684\t打擊短期炒作這個手段都有在做政府還是會持續做很多公共建設的開發包括軌道交通的開發這種開發都會助長當地這個房價跟生活圈的改善所以房價的高漲很多社會的因素所以院長覺得很正常而且也覺得不用改善但是政府就從居住正義的角度去做更多的平價的可以讓年輕人可以\n1222344\t1250574\t注的安心的這個角色去做但是我們在公共建設方面還是不能停下來當然當然不應該停下來公共建設是改善所有人民的生活品質嘛這本身非常同意但是高房價是一個很大的社會問題從80年代以來喔台灣的住宅政策基本上就崇尚住宅當商品市場萬能論叫去公共化的思維讓房價回歸市場機制就好啦那政府基本上雖然有少數的打擊措施但大部分都是叫做補貼式的政策啊\n1250934\t1279201\t每期名約降低青年的負擔其實就是變相鼓勵人民買房截至2022年底我國的住宅自有率高達84.6%但同時房屋貸款從20年變成30年30年變成35年甚至出現40年的房貸多少的年輕世代因為這樣子的關係陷入防止孩子二選一的困境養了孩子無力買房背了房貸無力生子\n1279921\t1303090\t面對民怨的主要對應手段我們看到政府過去的時間還是加碼加碼再加碼補貼補貼再補貼至於真正有機會能夠降低房價抑制投機的市場面的改革恐怕是牛步向前政府用社會福利的角度提供補貼租屋補貼是一種新清安的利息補貼是一種但真正的問題從來就是居住世代的不公跟市場的扭曲\n1303530\t1328908\t如果我們還是繼續只是用社會福利的角度提供社宅提供補貼來只有這樣子的角度來看待住宅政策。大家想要討好青年又不敢得罪建商。侃公家之慨卻沒有辦法解決問題。本期主張政府的思維應該轉從社會福利轉向社會投資啊。什麼叫社會投資?大家都講青年世代國家的未來。他們不應該是投資客獲利的工具。不應該也不...\n1329688\t1353984\t也不應該絕望,不應該對未來躺平以對。解決青年的住房問題,就是解決青年少子女化的問題。就是找回國家的未來最直接、最有效、也最務實的方式。我們需要政府將住宅問題再公共化,讓它回歸使用價值,要從整體市場面推動改革方案,在於改善買不起跟租不好的兩大困境,來確保居住權。\n1354924\t1381237\t財政府八年的打房措施本席市政委是不及格的。深水區的改革始終不願意碰觸。但是德賴清德總統曾經提過囤房稅2.0的想法也馬上要上路。請院長或部長簡單說明具體的內容。這樣的政策能不能增加建商的持有成本,避免囤積居奇,大搞限售鎖盤。什麼時候推動上路?預期的成效跟目標又是什麼?囤房稅2.0可能要請財政部來回答。\n1385560\t1408163\t委員一定是關心最近談到所謂新清安的問題那財政部已經就代後管理的加強做了很多這個因應的措施至於說稅制的問題我想再請部長來做說明跟委員報告有關房屋稅條例修正了以後在今年7月1號開始會上路那對於建商我們是按照要他時間內然後\n1409244\t1409484\t這很重要。\n1432867\t1454765\t因為我們前面當然不管是院長或是部長大部分的時間都談建設社宅都談租屋補貼都談包租貸款這些我也都支持可是我剛剛講的政府的邏輯不能只有社會福利要有市場面的改革囤房稅就是一種市場面的改革而且你政府已經推了方案甚至即將上路沒有什麼道理院長部長不曉得的好不好剛剛財政部長講的很清楚\n1455765\t1474794\t這個囤房稅會針對建商只有兩年的寬限期嘛,如果兩年內不把該賣的都賣掉,後面就會增加他的持有成本。請問院長,請問兩位部長,這樣子的一個政策上路之後,你有沒有預設目標?比如說我要把房價指數的往上的趨勢壓平,或者是有沒有具體的一個數字,大概多少時間內還有多少信心可以完成?\n1475575\t1475595\t當然\n1490865\t1496887\t內容部長講得很清楚,但是我的問題是什麼?我的問題是政策目標。也就是說我要把房屋指數往下降,降多少?\n1516670\t1535843\t或者是有什麼樣的一個具體的方向?你們在推動這個的時候總有一個政策成效吧?它預期的成效會是什麼?比如說我因為這樣的兩年寬限期,全國中央歸戶這樣的一個政策設計,多少年內可以釋出多少餘屋,改善市場供需不均衡的狀況?你們有相關的數據跟政策目標的具體想法嗎?\n1537591\t1537911\t好!沒關係!好!\n1552671\t1572800\t我第一次都沒關係,但是我希望後面我們在追蹤題目的時候,各式各樣的數據,院長要把它記在腦子裡面,大的方向至少要有。比如說我就覺得你們可以講25萬戶社會住宅,20幾萬戶的這個包租貸款,租屋補貼,50萬的租屋補貼,你看我都會背了,對不對?這是你也會背,大家都會背,可是不會只有這個嘛,對不對?好,你既然講剛剛大家擅長的我就來講。\n1574040\t1594837\t劉思芳部長在內政委員會答詢的時候也講2032年以前新辦25萬戶社會住宅25萬戶包租代管50萬戶的租金補貼提供100萬戶的這樣子的一個供給量這樣的政策目標八年的大目標大家都可以講但是我很好奇的是萬一如果做不到誰負責怎麼負責\n1596098\t1621853\t但是我們總不能從現在就惡意推定你八年之後一定做不到,這樣子好像也太看衰政府,我們也不會這麼不講道理。但是如果你只用八年的大目標去框這個東西的話,我覺得恐怕對於大家追蹤政策的成效來講是有負面的影響的。請問有沒有更細緻的,比如說逐年或是每兩年他的政策目標是什麼,方便所有的關注住宅議題的所有的立委也好公民團體也好可以有效來追蹤,請問有想法嗎?\n1623154\t1650096\t謝謝委員的關心我想您講的部分我們在8年內達到百萬租屋加戶的這個計畫一定會達得到為什麼到目前為止包括這個包租貸款或是租金補貼其實已經達到原來的目標那比較慢的部分就是所謂的直接興建設宅的部分那直接興建設宅的部分到今年年底的時候已經達到大概89萬戶我不要聽今年的我要聽一年後兩年後四年後八年後我們每一季一半年每一年都會做滾動式請你去整理\n1651397\t1674264\t你每兩年有一個兩年的階段目標嘛。比如說分四個階段來達成。這樣是不是大家追蹤比較具體。中間出了問題我可能會及時來調整。而不是說啊1月8年以後可以達成總量。我不要好不好。我希望有逐年詳細的目標。我也希望院長要力均力壯。萬一沒有達成是要有負起政治責任的。這樣子的一個心理準備。我們才會相信這政府在推動社會住宅政策、推動包租貸款等等的時候是玩真的齁。\n1675004\t1691728\t最後一個題目是有關於租屋的品質因為時間有限我們就不多花時間來做論述了這個地圖是夜間人口跟戶籍人口的差異這個在新北、台北、桃園、新竹、縣市大體上晚上的人都比白天人多意思是什麼\n1692088\t1721263\t除了有少部分是夜班或是移工之外大部分其實就租屋客群居的地方啦因為他不在戶籍人口之內但是在性命調查的時候他是被統計在人在這個位置的這個租屋族到底有多少人啊我們光是討論這件事搞不好可以討論30分鐘因為租屋市場是一個黑市啊我們沒有人能夠很清楚的了解這樣子的一個數字這是一個大的問題所以說除了剛剛講的囤房稅之外啊租屋市場的透明化其實也是非常非常重要的根據朝院的調查租屋的青年的困擾不可以\n1721823\t1722263\t本期的草案\n1743949\t1752701\t本黨的草案基本上都已經送進內政委員會準備來做排審。我想請問中央政府針對朱市長透明化有沒有修法的規劃有沒有具體的時間表?\n1753852\t1774838\t我先跟委員報告一下目前我們在百萬租家戶裡面所謂的包租貸款或是租金補貼的方式其實已經超過有60萬到70萬的這樣的家戶那所以我們會針對說他在租屋的過程當中包括您剛所說的這個租屋市場的津貼也好或是租屋市場的價格是否夠透明化可以提供給更多或是年輕人來做參考\n1776178\t1787602\t那我現在瞭解說像臺北市政府他們願意呢來幫忙就是把這個所有在這個網路上面的這個租屋的這個安全網設定一個讓大家可以公開跟透明化來看一下這個房價是不是合乎的規定。\n1793224\t1814421\t原來在網路上面就有這樣的租屋補貼的方式,但是它是不是夠透明化?那有願意縣市政府要投入來幫忙的話?沒關係,如果看起來沒有這麼快提版本,那我們的版本就先來排審。那排審的時候,我希望行政院用開放的態度,我們充分來做討論,好嗎?針對租屋市場透明這一塊,包租代管跟租屋補貼逐步的來納入,讓租屋市場恢復正常。\n1814921\t1833552\t大家以後才可以比較理性也比較清楚的討論政策,希望內政部是準備好了。好,最後總結一下,我們的政府樂觀但人民保守,其實原因還是分配不均。94%的人擔心物價,80%的中小企業缺乏關愛,65.7%的產業受限低薪問題,我們的房價越打越高,人民越來越苦。\n1834172\t1834352\t謝謝委員的提問\n","txt":"現在跟議長報告,在我們議場來參訪的是美國南達科他州的州議會的訪問團在我們樓上。我們掌聲歡迎。歡迎各位。好,謝謝。我們接下來繼續請牛許庭委員,請。好,謝謝主席。行政院長、經濟部長有請。麻煩請左院長再次備詢,也請經濟部。\n好,院長午安啦。這個一整天的備詢辛苦了。這個本席喔,身為年輕的國會議員喔,這個始終懷抱理想,期待我們的政府有功能,社會有良知,人民能夠獲得公平正義。薪水物價跟房價是當代台灣人民最在乎的民生指標。這個院長應該不會反對吧?\n那我們今天就針對經濟發展分配正義居住正義來做一下綜合討論期待政府能夠提出好的表現跟回答首先我要請問院長跟部長捐低效應是什麼意思捐低效應你有聽過這個名詞嗎英文叫trickle down沒關係部長可以說明編記效應嗎不是編記啦捐低啊下盛經濟學聽過沒有\n好沒關係我解釋給你聽喔捐低效應或稱下正經濟學是講說政策上政府的政策側重大企業透過給大企業不管是減稅也好或者是產業經濟政策的一些優惠期待讓這一群人來帶動其他人的發展透過讓一部分的人先成功然後\n祈待他們可以合理的自己分配這些賺來的財富,從而間接的達成社會貧富差距越來越小的這件事情。這個概念叫做Trickle Down,叫做捐低效應。這個院長您相不相信這樣效果,這樣子說法的效果?\n台灣已經是一個成熟的開發而且高科技產業非常完善的一個地方了。當一部分人先富起來那是古代中國的一個實用化,其實不適合我們現在。我們現在注重的不僅是高科技,我們希望中小微企業都能夠存不起來。\n這就是所謂均衡台灣的理念。希望均衡對不對?很好,這是我本期今天第一個要提的概念。為什麼我會提這個當作開場?因為賴清德政府的經濟政策基本上最常被人家討論的叫五大信賴產業,對不對?半導體、人工智慧、軍工安控、次世代通訊。希望透過價值鏈的整合帶動經濟的成長,這個其實就是標準的。\n下盛經濟學的這樣一個邏輯啊。我們討論台積電,台積電是我們護國神山。我們討論輝達,認為皮衣哥黃仁勳是臺灣之光。當我們討論這些成功的世界級的企業的時候,臺灣人都同感榮耀。這一點本席也非常同意。但本席不禁在想啊,臺灣難道只有台積電嗎?\n我們的經濟難道只能圍繞著揮打嗎?我想請問院長,請問台灣中小企業的數量有多少?當然不是,中小企業才是台灣經濟的骨幹。沒錯,數量有多少?數量有多少?164萬。164萬,好,部長OK喔。大企業大概多少家?\n幾百萬人\n中小企業的數量163.3萬,占全國98.9%。中小企業從業人數913萬,占全部就業人口數79.98%。相對來講大企業大概是10%左右,另外有18.9%左右是在政府來上班。\n我們看到這個比例不管是企業的家數或者是從業人口數就如同院長剛剛講的其實中小企業才是真正的骨幹但是我們大部分在看到整個政府在推動經濟發展跟產業政策的時候大細股、高科技、大計畫其實佔掉了大部分的篇幅本身非常擔心中小企業、服務業是被政府遺忘的一塊我很擔心在未來政府對他們的角色跟照顧恐怕是失衡的院長你對這樣的說法有沒有什麼回應\n我們也很怕會造成這種錯誤的現象跟錯誤的觀點所以我們認為中小微企業能夠從數位轉型幫忙他做產業的升級才是國家經濟跟社會安定之道所以你現在有提一個概念叫轉型對不對還不錯有點方向但是我今天就講話我就比較不客氣了我要講一些一般人比較少接觸但是蠻殘酷的真相我先請問院長我們的晶片驅動台灣創新方案要投入多少資源\nAI行動方案2.0我們剛啟動\n經費部份確實的數字我現在四年400億馬上的3.0預計每年要投入120億但我要再接著追問你是數字答不出來我很擔心那院長我請教一下中小企業行動智慧應用計畫投入多少資源少的多民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫投入多少資源也很少\n福島企業二代接班的這個叫做福島小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫剛剛院長有講的你看一下上面的圖表\n民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫4年1億6千萬。中小企業行動智慧應用計畫5年1億4千萬。輔導小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫2024年剛剛上路第一年7千7百萬。我們經濟部有中小企業還跟新創並在一起叫中小企業與創新署。年度預算只有44億4千萬。\n跟前面我們剛剛講的晶片驅動台灣計畫十年三千億AI行動2.0四年四百億未來3.0一年一百二十億是不是資源的投入跟政府的政策的重心有一點點落差?報告委員這一部分的話我們所投入的預算是以以後產出的這個效益為主的這個計算所以這個對這個晶創的部分跟這個AI的部分都是以\n三年後五年後的產詞\n作為推估的一部分。我今天我絕對不反對投資AI投資半導體。他是我們的護國神山我非常支持。但是我擔心的是政府角色的失衡。我為什麼開頭要用特別的名詞叫捐低經濟學。就是因為你永遠都只有看到龍頭的時候。你期待龍頭帶動產業鏈這個概念都沒錯。但是我要請問比如說精創產業整個半導體產業鏈受惠這3000億的資源總共有多少間企業會受惠?大的小的加起來整條半導體產業鏈大概多少家?\n報告委員,我們金創台灣計畫,我們現在正在修正,我們會把晶片的應用,AI的應用的產業,那就是包括中小企業,全部會納進來,所以我們在應用的部分...以本席了解的資料,整個半導體產業鏈的上中下游,大的小的都算了,400家左右。\n你看我們剛剛討論中小企業總共的家數是160幾萬家。這是我擔心的事情。第二個我也很想問你這個AI的行動計畫它可以造福多少產業?可以造福多少從業人員?對不對?這是我今天想要問的問題嗎?這是我的認同委員就是說我們在晶片產業跟AI它的應用的部分我們會推廣我們現在正在規劃這個所以會增加中小企業\n我想不管是院長部長跟主委應該可以聽得出來啦就是說現在看起來資源的投入啊失衡的狀況好像比較明顯一些其實很多中小企業的專案甚至我們去爬資料啊甚至都沒有辦法在新聞媒體上露出啊因為太小了\n相比這些大企業這些旗艦這小到沒有被人家關注但不能因為他小就遺忘他這是我給這個新團隊的第一個提醒希望院長可以合理的做調整而不要忽略了大部分從業人員跟基層產業的需求好不好這第一個國科會在討論這個議程的時候他有相當好的一個方向跟分析的結果將來一定從\n不僅從高科技裡面還要再分高科技裡面的強弱還要落實到中小微企業主委曾經報告過這樣的計畫畢竟新團隊才剛上任我們會願意給一些時間但我希望接下來我們在追蹤這個題目的時候不要再看到這種大細膜這種狀況再來我要問喔這個股票指數屢創歷史新高國內國發會的景氣燈號攀升藍燈慢慢都變紅燈數據上看起來經濟前景很好院長看好台灣未來的經濟嗎\n好,謝謝。但我要講的是人民的落差跟一般的政府也許是國外企業的落差\n從覆面的總體經濟數據來看好像狀況不錯但是中央大學的臺灣經濟發展研究中心一直以來他有長時間針對家庭經濟信心、經濟景氣信心、就業信心、物價水準、購買耐久財時機跟投資股票的時機等6項信心指數進行長時間的民意調查那目前我就直接把圖表秀出來了人民的想法跟觀感跟政府的漂亮的數據其實有不小的落差\n家庭經濟信心認為不太好的大概有44%左右對於經濟景氣的信心覺得不太好的大概37%到38%就業機會的信心覺得不太好的超過一半56%物價水準信心非常可怕認為物價未來會上漲的9成多\n股票雖然上了兩萬多點大家都覺得很厲害但是有超過三分之二的臺灣人民不認為現在是一個投資股票的好時機啊。院長為什麼人民的感受跟政府的數據有一個顯著的落差?\n我承認人民的感受我們要讓他更真實更溫暖更直接所以我說過一句話就是任何經濟的發展是繁榮的指標但是公平的分配才是文明國家的象徵公平的分配其實這個非常有切合本席在問的主題為什麼數字很好可是大部分人悲觀其實就是通貨膨脹的問題\n有超過9494%的人認為物價會上漲經濟成長的好處顯然被更高的通膨給壓過去了嘛很多科技業的榮景不見得是很多中小企業所能感受的這是另外一個本席剛剛有提到的問題所以分配是非常重要的所以我們接下來談一談薪水的問題喔這個根據喔\n數據資料庫的顯示我們的勞工的每月明目薪資從2020年到2024年大概成長了大概3000多塊接近一成提升的幅度不小但是其實更多人關注的是所謂的實質薪資的上漲率實質經常性薪資在同樣的時間內就是連續下降院長這代表什麼意思我們薪資的結構還是要讓他\n這增加人民的所得還是要讓它增加人民的所得因為薪資名目的上漲比不上通貨膨脹的速度啊\n通膨嚴重基本上全民受苦啊,受苦程度也有大有小,因為各行各業心情不太一樣。行政院主計總署的心情平台,這個用我們政府的資料,2023年統計資料顯示,我們總共有111類的產業,大家講百工百業,其中有73個類別的產業,每個月包含獎金在內,包含加班費在內,薪水其實低於5萬。\n這73類的產業占全體產業類別65.7%,其中又以服務業跟中小企業為大宗。這就為什麼我開宗明一定要講分配是很重要的。面對通膨帶動的成本全面上漲,請問院長要怎麼從困境中找出路?打算用什麼樣的方法解決企業薪資停止成長的情況?院長現在有想法嗎?\n那政府當然會透過每一年適當的調薪,看能不能帶動企業對整個員工的調薪。那如果說我們的經濟發展是向好的方向發展,更期待企業、僱主能夠將這個利益能夠\n我們可以公開的呼籲\n我們要討論的是一樣本期在乎的是中小企業的事啊針對中小企業的加薪減稅方案其實都透過修法的方式來處理嘛對不對但是一樣喔這個2016年我們針對這個東西做加薪減稅嘛也就是中小企業給員工加薪我政府給稅率優惠這個東西花了多少錢院長跟部長有掌握嗎\n這個有點細節啦。2016年這個計畫第一次推出來的稅市支出1043萬,1000多萬而已。2017年753萬,然後這個計畫就中斷了。馬上要新上路,因為最近就在討論修法的方案。從高估的角度,高估最多最多也就是2.63億。如果低估的話可能只有5000萬。\n對照我們剛剛給那些大企業成功的企業的各式各樣的政策優惠同樣在加薪減稅的這一塊的政府投入的資源本期期期以為不夠真的是不夠經濟政策的篇幅跟資源是政府最好的招邀金如果我們的政府一直圍繞強勢產業來訂定政策投入的資源是以百億為千億為單位就期待這些企業成為火車頭要帶動產業的成長要成為原動力這個就是\n我開頭講的叫做經濟學上面的捐低效應。這是這樣的政策邏輯。但是不管藍綠過去這一段時間大家都是用這一套的邏輯去想像台灣的經濟政策。但從新制的數字人民的信心指數來看顯然沒有捐低的效果。反而形成了強者很強弱者更弱的分配問題。\n我本期認為這叫方向錯誤如果政府沒有辦法及時來做調整我認為這是有負人民的託付所以本期期許在第一段的這個質詢裡面期許新政府能夠察覺問題調整政策對於中小企業服務業的發展\n院長講到目前還可以接受嗎?\n謝謝委員的觀點總體經濟還是很重要我們這一次很多的閣員都來自產業我們希望帶進來產業的效率最近我們也會對經濟問題在院內成立一個諮詢的委員會當中國發會經濟部財政部就會就\n現在所遇到的問題跟長久以來無法解決的問題提出一個新的觀點跟看法我們期待政策在這樣子的平台搭建起來之後針對中小企業針對服務業一定要投入特別的資源沒關係因為我時間有限啦我期待啦樂觀期待你可以有像樣的這個做法但因為我們要進入到第二階段第二階段我們要談的是房價所以經濟部長等各位可以先回座休息我們內政部長有請\n好接著我們談房價的問題根據內政部這個從全國各縣市的實價登錄交易資料顯示出來的結果可以發現住宅價格這個上升的趨勢比物價還要恐怖105年也就2016年蔡政府上臺第一年當成基準來計算房價指數100\n到一百一十二年度的第四季也就去年的年底啊這個數字的指數啊直逼一百四啊可以說這八年裡面住宅價格上漲了接近四成啊但今天我要先問的問題是與此同時有一個非常有趣的狀況想要跟政府來做一下探討跟院長做個探討啊內政部統計的房價所得比啊好像沒什麼變也就是說房屋價格大概漲了三成多接近四成可是我看你在房價所得比好像沒有差很多以桃園市為例啊\n院長或部長可以回答?\n好,謝謝委員的指教。我想你大概也發現到說其實我們經濟的成長動能非常的高。所以房價在自由市場上面確實會出現這樣的狀況。那政府所推出來包括我們現在的所謂的百萬租屋、家戶的部分的追不上現在房價的速度。所以才會產生像你所說的那樣的現象。這是我們必須要來檢討改進的。\n這個一樣是百萬,這個待會我們會針對百萬租入這個政策來做探討。我只舉一個例子,我講這個數據的不合理性,我希望政府會去做一下思考,是不是太樂觀了。比如說2020年,這個本期的選區,A級重化區,那時候大概一坪的房屋價格25萬。到2024年、2023年的年底左右,大概是35萬。其實上漲的幅度差不多就是四成。也就是說一個一千萬的兩房一廳一位的這樣一個房型,到了最近差不多都是一千四百多萬,甚至有更高的一個狀況來出現了。\n那房價所得比的意思7.6表示不吃不喝7.6年可以買齊1000萬的房子我們就以這個為例子年收入的所得大概是131萬那到了2023年如果房價從1000萬變成1400萬的時候那照理來講我這個房價所得比我就用同樣的標準130幾萬的標準來去算的話房價所得比會超過10啊\n那我要問阿\n為什麼房價會越打越高呢?我們還是要回到問題的根源啊。請院長評價一下蔡政府過去8年針對這個熱錢湧入房地產市場。我們怎麼樣打擊炒作?你給這樣子的這一連串的政策措施打幾分?我們也在過去就推動了多元的這個社會住宅政策。也從稅制方面推動房地合一稅。\n打擊短期炒作這個手段都有在做政府還是會持續做很多公共建設的開發包括軌道交通的開發這種開發都會助長當地這個房價跟生活圈的改善所以房價的高漲很多社會的因素所以院長覺得很正常而且也覺得不用改善但是政府就從居住正義的角度去做更多的平價的可以讓年輕人可以\n注的安心的這個角色去做但是我們在公共建設方面還是不能停下來當然當然不應該停下來公共建設是改善所有人民的生活品質嘛這本身非常同意但是高房價是一個很大的社會問題從80年代以來喔台灣的住宅政策基本上就崇尚住宅當商品市場萬能論叫去公共化的思維讓房價回歸市場機制就好啦那政府基本上雖然有少數的打擊措施但大部分都是叫做補貼式的政策啊\n每期名約降低青年的負擔其實就是變相鼓勵人民買房截至2022年底我國的住宅自有率高達84.6%但同時房屋貸款從20年變成30年30年變成35年甚至出現40年的房貸多少的年輕世代因為這樣子的關係陷入防止孩子二選一的困境養了孩子無力買房背了房貸無力生子\n面對民怨的主要對應手段我們看到政府過去的時間還是加碼加碼再加碼補貼補貼再補貼至於真正有機會能夠降低房價抑制投機的市場面的改革恐怕是牛步向前政府用社會福利的角度提供補貼租屋補貼是一種新清安的利息補貼是一種但真正的問題從來就是居住世代的不公跟市場的扭曲\n如果我們還是繼續只是用社會福利的角度提供社宅提供補貼來只有這樣子的角度來看待住宅政策。大家想要討好青年又不敢得罪建商。侃公家之慨卻沒有辦法解決問題。本期主張政府的思維應該轉從社會福利轉向社會投資啊。什麼叫社會投資?大家都講青年世代國家的未來。他們不應該是投資客獲利的工具。不應該也不...\n也不應該絕望,不應該對未來躺平以對。解決青年的住房問題,就是解決青年少子女化的問題。就是找回國家的未來最直接、最有效、也最務實的方式。我們需要政府將住宅問題再公共化,讓它回歸使用價值,要從整體市場面推動改革方案,在於改善買不起跟租不好的兩大困境,來確保居住權。\n財政府八年的打房措施本席市政委是不及格的。深水區的改革始終不願意碰觸。但是德賴清德總統曾經提過囤房稅2.0的想法也馬上要上路。請院長或部長簡單說明具體的內容。這樣的政策能不能增加建商的持有成本,避免囤積居奇,大搞限售鎖盤。什麼時候推動上路?預期的成效跟目標又是什麼?囤房稅2.0可能要請財政部來回答。\n委員一定是關心最近談到所謂新清安的問題那財政部已經就代後管理的加強做了很多這個因應的措施至於說稅制的問題我想再請部長來做說明跟委員報告有關房屋稅條例修正了以後在今年7月1號開始會上路那對於建商我們是按照要他時間內然後\n這很重要。\n因為我們前面當然不管是院長或是部長大部分的時間都談建設社宅都談租屋補貼都談包租貸款這些我也都支持可是我剛剛講的政府的邏輯不能只有社會福利要有市場面的改革囤房稅就是一種市場面的改革而且你政府已經推了方案甚至即將上路沒有什麼道理院長部長不曉得的好不好剛剛財政部長講的很清楚\n這個囤房稅會針對建商只有兩年的寬限期嘛,如果兩年內不把該賣的都賣掉,後面就會增加他的持有成本。請問院長,請問兩位部長,這樣子的一個政策上路之後,你有沒有預設目標?比如說我要把房價指數的往上的趨勢壓平,或者是有沒有具體的一個數字,大概多少時間內還有多少信心可以完成?\n當然\n內容部長講得很清楚,但是我的問題是什麼?我的問題是政策目標。也就是說我要把房屋指數往下降,降多少?\n或者是有什麼樣的一個具體的方向?你們在推動這個的時候總有一個政策成效吧?它預期的成效會是什麼?比如說我因為這樣的兩年寬限期,全國中央歸戶這樣的一個政策設計,多少年內可以釋出多少餘屋,改善市場供需不均衡的狀況?你們有相關的數據跟政策目標的具體想法嗎?\n好!沒關係!好!\n我第一次都沒關係,但是我希望後面我們在追蹤題目的時候,各式各樣的數據,院長要把它記在腦子裡面,大的方向至少要有。比如說我就覺得你們可以講25萬戶社會住宅,20幾萬戶的這個包租貸款,租屋補貼,50萬的租屋補貼,你看我都會背了,對不對?這是你也會背,大家都會背,可是不會只有這個嘛,對不對?好,你既然講剛剛大家擅長的我就來講。\n劉思芳部長在內政委員會答詢的時候也講2032年以前新辦25萬戶社會住宅25萬戶包租代管50萬戶的租金補貼提供100萬戶的這樣子的一個供給量這樣的政策目標八年的大目標大家都可以講但是我很好奇的是萬一如果做不到誰負責怎麼負責\n但是我們總不能從現在就惡意推定你八年之後一定做不到,這樣子好像也太看衰政府,我們也不會這麼不講道理。但是如果你只用八年的大目標去框這個東西的話,我覺得恐怕對於大家追蹤政策的成效來講是有負面的影響的。請問有沒有更細緻的,比如說逐年或是每兩年他的政策目標是什麼,方便所有的關注住宅議題的所有的立委也好公民團體也好可以有效來追蹤,請問有想法嗎?\n謝謝委員的關心我想您講的部分我們在8年內達到百萬租屋加戶的這個計畫一定會達得到為什麼到目前為止包括這個包租貸款或是租金補貼其實已經達到原來的目標那比較慢的部分就是所謂的直接興建設宅的部分那直接興建設宅的部分到今年年底的時候已經達到大概89萬戶我不要聽今年的我要聽一年後兩年後四年後八年後我們每一季一半年每一年都會做滾動式請你去整理\n你每兩年有一個兩年的階段目標嘛。比如說分四個階段來達成。這樣是不是大家追蹤比較具體。中間出了問題我可能會及時來調整。而不是說啊1月8年以後可以達成總量。我不要好不好。我希望有逐年詳細的目標。我也希望院長要力均力壯。萬一沒有達成是要有負起政治責任的。這樣子的一個心理準備。我們才會相信這政府在推動社會住宅政策、推動包租貸款等等的時候是玩真的齁。\n最後一個題目是有關於租屋的品質因為時間有限我們就不多花時間來做論述了這個地圖是夜間人口跟戶籍人口的差異這個在新北、台北、桃園、新竹、縣市大體上晚上的人都比白天人多意思是什麼\n除了有少部分是夜班或是移工之外大部分其實就租屋客群居的地方啦因為他不在戶籍人口之內但是在性命調查的時候他是被統計在人在這個位置的這個租屋族到底有多少人啊我們光是討論這件事搞不好可以討論30分鐘因為租屋市場是一個黑市啊我們沒有人能夠很清楚的了解這樣子的一個數字這是一個大的問題所以說除了剛剛講的囤房稅之外啊租屋市場的透明化其實也是非常非常重要的根據朝院的調查租屋的青年的困擾不可以\n本期的草案\n本黨的草案基本上都已經送進內政委員會準備來做排審。我想請問中央政府針對朱市長透明化有沒有修法的規劃有沒有具體的時間表?\n我先跟委員報告一下目前我們在百萬租家戶裡面所謂的包租貸款或是租金補貼的方式其實已經超過有60萬到70萬的這樣的家戶那所以我們會針對說他在租屋的過程當中包括您剛所說的這個租屋市場的津貼也好或是租屋市場的價格是否夠透明化可以提供給更多或是年輕人來做參考\n那我現在瞭解說像臺北市政府他們願意呢來幫忙就是把這個所有在這個網路上面的這個租屋的這個安全網設定一個讓大家可以公開跟透明化來看一下這個房價是不是合乎的規定。\n原來在網路上面就有這樣的租屋補貼的方式,但是它是不是夠透明化?那有願意縣市政府要投入來幫忙的話?沒關係,如果看起來沒有這麼快提版本,那我們的版本就先來排審。那排審的時候,我希望行政院用開放的態度,我們充分來做討論,好嗎?針對租屋市場透明這一塊,包租代管跟租屋補貼逐步的來納入,讓租屋市場恢復正常。\n大家以後才可以比較理性也比較清楚的討論政策,希望內政部是準備好了。好,最後總結一下,我們的政府樂觀但人民保守,其實原因還是分配不均。94%的人擔心物價,80%的中小企業缺乏關愛,65.7%的產業受限低薪問題,我們的房價越打越高,人民越來越苦。\n謝謝委員的提問\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:15.146 --> 00:40.005\n現在跟議長報告,在我們議場來參訪的是美國南達科他州的州議會的訪問團在我們樓上。我們掌聲歡迎。歡迎各位。好,謝謝。我們接下來繼續請牛許庭委員,請。好,謝謝主席。行政院長、經濟部長有請。麻煩請左院長再次備詢,也請經濟部。\n\n00:50.331 --> 01:11.297\n好,院長午安啦。這個一整天的備詢辛苦了。這個本席喔,身為年輕的國會議員喔,這個始終懷抱理想,期待我們的政府有功能,社會有良知,人民能夠獲得公平正義。薪水物價跟房價是當代台灣人民最在乎的民生指標。這個院長應該不會反對吧?\n\n01:13.766 --> 01:36.707\n那我們今天就針對經濟發展分配正義居住正義來做一下綜合討論期待政府能夠提出好的表現跟回答首先我要請問院長跟部長捐低效應是什麼意思捐低效應你有聽過這個名詞嗎英文叫trickledown沒關係部長可以說明編記效應嗎不是編記啦捐低啊下盛經濟學聽過沒有\n\n01:38.151 --> 01:59.424\n好沒關係我解釋給你聽喔捐低效應或稱下正經濟學是講說政策上政府的政策側重大企業透過給大企業不管是減稅也好或者是產業經濟政策的一些優惠期待讓這一群人來帶動其他人的發展透過讓一部分的人先成功然後\n\n02:00.505 --> 02:16.921\n祈待他們可以合理的自己分配這些賺來的財富,從而間接的達成社會貧富差距越來越小的這件事情。這個概念叫做TrickleDown,叫做捐低效應。這個院長您相不相信這樣效果,這樣子說法的效果?\n\n02:17.321 --> 02:34.290\n台灣已經是一個成熟的開發而且高科技產業非常完善的一個地方了。當一部分人先富起來那是古代中國的一個實用化,其實不適合我們現在。我們現在注重的不僅是高科技,我們希望中小微企業都能夠存不起來。\n\n02:34.850 --> 02:53.540\n這就是所謂均衡台灣的理念。希望均衡對不對?很好,這是我本期今天第一個要提的概念。為什麼我會提這個當作開場?因為賴清德政府的經濟政策基本上最常被人家討論的叫五大信賴產業,對不對?半導體、人工智慧、軍工安控、次世代通訊。希望透過價值鏈的整合帶動經濟的成長,這個其實就是標準的。\n\n02:57.862 --> 03:15.062\n下盛經濟學的這樣一個邏輯啊。我們討論台積電,台積電是我們護國神山。我們討論輝達,認為皮衣哥黃仁勳是臺灣之光。當我們討論這些成功的世界級的企業的時候,臺灣人都同感榮耀。這一點本席也非常同意。但本席不禁在想啊,臺灣難道只有台積電嗎?\n\n03:16.684 --> 03:30.532\n我們的經濟難道只能圍繞著揮打嗎?我想請問院長,請問台灣中小企業的數量有多少?當然不是,中小企業才是台灣經濟的骨幹。沒錯,數量有多少?數量有多少?164萬。164萬,好,部長OK喔。大企業大概多少家?\n\n03:36.428 --> 03:36.608\n幾百萬人\n\n04:06.314 --> 04:09.777\n中小企業的數量163.3萬,占全國98.9%。中小企業從業人數913萬,占全部就業人口數79.98%。相對來講大企業大概是10%左右,另外有18.9%左右是在政府來上班。\n\n04:31.636 --> 04:59.813\n我們看到這個比例不管是企業的家數或者是從業人口數就如同院長剛剛講的其實中小企業才是真正的骨幹但是我們大部分在看到整個政府在推動經濟發展跟產業政策的時候大細股、高科技、大計畫其實佔掉了大部分的篇幅本身非常擔心中小企業、服務業是被政府遺忘的一塊我很擔心在未來政府對他們的角色跟照顧恐怕是失衡的院長你對這樣的說法有沒有什麼回應\n\n05:00.473 --> 05:27.868\n我們也很怕會造成這種錯誤的現象跟錯誤的觀點所以我們認為中小微企業能夠從數位轉型幫忙他做產業的升級才是國家經濟跟社會安定之道所以你現在有提一個概念叫轉型對不對還不錯有點方向但是我今天就講話我就比較不客氣了我要講一些一般人比較少接觸但是蠻殘酷的真相我先請問院長我們的晶片驅動台灣創新方案要投入多少資源\n\n05:31.457 --> 05:32.577\nAI行動方案2.0我們剛啟動\n\n05:59.753 --> 06:15.601\n經費部份確實的數字我現在四年400億馬上的3.0預計每年要投入120億但我要再接著追問你是數字答不出來我很擔心那院長我請教一下中小企業行動智慧應用計畫投入多少資源少的多民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫投入多少資源也很少\n\n06:25.387 --> 06:33.487\n福島企業二代接班的這個叫做福島小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫剛剛院長有講的你看一下上面的圖表\n\n06:34.332 --> 06:58.750\n民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫4年1億6千萬。中小企業行動智慧應用計畫5年1億4千萬。輔導小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫2024年剛剛上路第一年7千7百萬。我們經濟部有中小企業還跟新創並在一起叫中小企業與創新署。年度預算只有44億4千萬。\n\n07:00.811 --> 07:28.428\n跟前面我們剛剛講的晶片驅動台灣計畫十年三千億AI行動2.0四年四百億未來3.0一年一百二十億是不是資源的投入跟政府的政策的重心有一點點落差?報告委員這一部分的話我們所投入的預算是以以後產出的這個效益為主的這個計算所以這個對這個晶創的部分跟這個AI的部分都是以\n\n07:28.989 --> 07:29.998\n三年後五年後的產詞\n\n07:31.437 --> 08:00.043\n作為推估的一部分。我今天我絕對不反對投資AI投資半導體。他是我們的護國神山我非常支持。但是我擔心的是政府角色的失衡。我為什麼開頭要用特別的名詞叫捐低經濟學。就是因為你永遠都只有看到龍頭的時候。你期待龍頭帶動產業鏈這個概念都沒錯。但是我要請問比如說精創產業整個半導體產業鏈受惠這3000億的資源總共有多少間企業會受惠?大的小的加起來整條半導體產業鏈大概多少家?\n\n08:01.603 --> 08:20.638\n報告委員,我們金創台灣計畫,我們現在正在修正,我們會把晶片的應用,AI的應用的產業,那就是包括中小企業,全部會納進來,所以我們在應用的部分...以本席了解的資料,整個半導體產業鏈的上中下游,大的小的都算了,400家左右。\n\n08:21.198 --> 08:44.753\n你看我們剛剛討論中小企業總共的家數是160幾萬家。這是我擔心的事情。第二個我也很想問你這個AI的行動計畫它可以造福多少產業?可以造福多少從業人員?對不對?這是我今天想要問的問題嗎?這是我的認同委員就是說我們在晶片產業跟AI它的應用的部分我們會推廣我們現在正在規劃這個所以會增加中小企業\n\n08:45.673 --> 09:00.502\n我想不管是院長部長跟主委應該可以聽得出來啦就是說現在看起來資源的投入啊失衡的狀況好像比較明顯一些其實很多中小企業的專案甚至我們去爬資料啊甚至都沒有辦法在新聞媒體上露出啊因為太小了\n\n09:00.962 --> 09:25.171\n相比這些大企業這些旗艦這小到沒有被人家關注但不能因為他小就遺忘他這是我給這個新團隊的第一個提醒希望院長可以合理的做調整而不要忽略了大部分從業人員跟基層產業的需求好不好這第一個國科會在討論這個議程的時候他有相當好的一個方向跟分析的結果將來一定從\n\n09:26.031 --> 09:42.266\n不僅從高科技裡面還要再分高科技裡面的強弱還要落實到中小微企業主委曾經報告過這樣的計畫畢竟新團隊才剛上任我們會願意給一些時間但我希望接下來我們在追蹤這個題目的時候不要再看到這種大細膜這種狀況再來我要問喔這個股票指數屢創歷史新高國內國發會的景氣燈號攀升藍燈慢慢都變紅燈數據上看起來經濟前景很好院長看好台灣未來的經濟嗎\n\n09:53.951 --> 09:57.813\n好,謝謝。但我要講的是人民的落差跟一般的政府也許是國外企業的落差\n\n10:12.340 --> 10:37.902\n從覆面的總體經濟數據來看好像狀況不錯但是中央大學的臺灣經濟發展研究中心一直以來他有長時間針對家庭經濟信心、經濟景氣信心、就業信心、物價水準、購買耐久財時機跟投資股票的時機等6項信心指數進行長時間的民意調查那目前我就直接把圖表秀出來了人民的想法跟觀感跟政府的漂亮的數據其實有不小的落差\n\n10:38.422 --> 10:55.603\n家庭經濟信心認為不太好的大概有44%左右對於經濟景氣的信心覺得不太好的大概37%到38%就業機會的信心覺得不太好的超過一半56%物價水準信心非常可怕認為物價未來會上漲的9成多\n\n10:57.110 --> 11:10.113\n股票雖然上了兩萬多點大家都覺得很厲害但是有超過三分之二的臺灣人民不認為現在是一個投資股票的好時機啊。院長為什麼人民的感受跟政府的數據有一個顯著的落差?\n\n11:10.916 --> 11:31.843\n我承認人民的感受我們要讓他更真實更溫暖更直接所以我說過一句話就是任何經濟的發展是繁榮的指標但是公平的分配才是文明國家的象徵公平的分配其實這個非常有切合本席在問的主題為什麼數字很好可是大部分人悲觀其實就是通貨膨脹的問題\n\n11:33.524 --> 11:51.521\n有超過9494%的人認為物價會上漲經濟成長的好處顯然被更高的通膨給壓過去了嘛很多科技業的榮景不見得是很多中小企業所能感受的這是另外一個本席剛剛有提到的問題所以分配是非常重要的所以我們接下來談一談薪水的問題喔這個根據喔\n\n11:54.303 --> 12:13.908\n數據資料庫的顯示我們的勞工的每月明目薪資從2020年到2024年大概成長了大概3000多塊接近一成提升的幅度不小但是其實更多人關注的是所謂的實質薪資的上漲率實質經常性薪資在同樣的時間內就是連續下降院長這代表什麼意思我們薪資的結構還是要讓他\n\n12:17.558 --> 12:24.766\n這增加人民的所得還是要讓它增加人民的所得因為薪資名目的上漲比不上通貨膨脹的速度啊\n\n12:25.438 --> 12:48.987\n通膨嚴重基本上全民受苦啊,受苦程度也有大有小,因為各行各業心情不太一樣。行政院主計總署的心情平台,這個用我們政府的資料,2023年統計資料顯示,我們總共有111類的產業,大家講百工百業,其中有73個類別的產業,每個月包含獎金在內,包含加班費在內,薪水其實低於5萬。\n\n12:50.828 --> 13:11.437\n這73類的產業占全體產業類別65.7%,其中又以服務業跟中小企業為大宗。這就為什麼我開宗明一定要講分配是很重要的。面對通膨帶動的成本全面上漲,請問院長要怎麼從困境中找出路?打算用什麼樣的方法解決企業薪資停止成長的情況?院長現在有想法嗎?\n\n13:12.418 --> 13:25.473\n那政府當然會透過每一年適當的調薪,看能不能帶動企業對整個員工的調薪。那如果說我們的經濟發展是向好的方向發展,更期待企業、僱主能夠將這個利益能夠\n\n13:27.415 --> 13:27.996\n我們可以公開的呼籲\n\n13:43.479 --> 14:01.878\n我們要討論的是一樣本期在乎的是中小企業的事啊針對中小企業的加薪減稅方案其實都透過修法的方式來處理嘛對不對但是一樣喔這個2016年我們針對這個東西做加薪減稅嘛也就是中小企業給員工加薪我政府給稅率優惠這個東西花了多少錢院長跟部長有掌握嗎\n\n14:03.487 --> 14:25.475\n這個有點細節啦。2016年這個計畫第一次推出來的稅市支出1043萬,1000多萬而已。2017年753萬,然後這個計畫就中斷了。馬上要新上路,因為最近就在討論修法的方案。從高估的角度,高估最多最多也就是2.63億。如果低估的話可能只有5000萬。\n\n14:27.055 --> 14:52.285\n對照我們剛剛給那些大企業成功的企業的各式各樣的政策優惠同樣在加薪減稅的這一塊的政府投入的資源本期期期以為不夠真的是不夠經濟政策的篇幅跟資源是政府最好的招邀金如果我們的政府一直圍繞強勢產業來訂定政策投入的資源是以百億為千億為單位就期待這些企業成為火車頭要帶動產業的成長要成為原動力這個就是\n\n14:55.147 --> 15:14.218\n我開頭講的叫做經濟學上面的捐低效應。這是這樣的政策邏輯。但是不管藍綠過去這一段時間大家都是用這一套的邏輯去想像台灣的經濟政策。但從新制的數字人民的信心指數來看顯然沒有捐低的效果。反而形成了強者很強弱者更弱的分配問題。\n\n15:15.299 --> 15:29.655\n我本期認為這叫方向錯誤如果政府沒有辦法及時來做調整我認為這是有負人民的託付所以本期期許在第一段的這個質詢裡面期許新政府能夠察覺問題調整政策對於中小企業服務業的發展\n\n15:30.456 --> 15:31.637\n院長講到目前還可以接受嗎?\n\n15:54.123 --> 16:03.197\n謝謝委員的觀點總體經濟還是很重要我們這一次很多的閣員都來自產業我們希望帶進來產業的效率最近我們也會對經濟問題在院內成立一個諮詢的委員會當中國發會經濟部財政部就會就\n\n16:09.306 --> 16:34.796\n現在所遇到的問題跟長久以來無法解決的問題提出一個新的觀點跟看法我們期待政策在這樣子的平台搭建起來之後針對中小企業針對服務業一定要投入特別的資源沒關係因為我時間有限啦我期待啦樂觀期待你可以有像樣的這個做法但因為我們要進入到第二階段第二階段我們要談的是房價所以經濟部長等各位可以先回座休息我們內政部長有請\n\n16:43.370 --> 17:01.783\n好接著我們談房價的問題根據內政部這個從全國各縣市的實價登錄交易資料顯示出來的結果可以發現住宅價格這個上升的趨勢比物價還要恐怖105年也就2016年蔡政府上臺第一年當成基準來計算房價指數100\n\n17:02.904 --> 17:31.041\n到一百一十二年度的第四季也就去年的年底啊這個數字的指數啊直逼一百四啊可以說這八年裡面住宅價格上漲了接近四成啊但今天我要先問的問題是與此同時有一個非常有趣的狀況想要跟政府來做一下探討跟院長做個探討啊內政部統計的房價所得比啊好像沒什麼變也就是說房屋價格大概漲了三成多接近四成可是我看你在房價所得比好像沒有差很多以桃園市為例啊\n\n17:31.661 --> 17:32.342\n院長或部長可以回答?\n\n17:49.678 --> 18:09.372\n好,謝謝委員的指教。我想你大概也發現到說其實我們經濟的成長動能非常的高。所以房價在自由市場上面確實會出現這樣的狀況。那政府所推出來包括我們現在的所謂的百萬租屋、家戶的部分的追不上現在房價的速度。所以才會產生像你所說的那樣的現象。這是我們必須要來檢討改進的。\n\n18:11.298 --> 18:39.151\n這個一樣是百萬,這個待會我們會針對百萬租入這個政策來做探討。我只舉一個例子,我講這個數據的不合理性,我希望政府會去做一下思考,是不是太樂觀了。比如說2020年,這個本期的選區,A級重化區,那時候大概一坪的房屋價格25萬。到2024年、2023年的年底左右,大概是35萬。其實上漲的幅度差不多就是四成。也就是說一個一千萬的兩房一廳一位的這樣一個房型,到了最近差不多都是一千四百多萬,甚至有更高的一個狀況來出現了。\n\n18:40.632 --> 18:56.900\n那房價所得比的意思7.6表示不吃不喝7.6年可以買齊1000萬的房子我們就以這個為例子年收入的所得大概是131萬那到了2023年如果房價從1000萬變成1400萬的時候那照理來講我這個房價所得比我就用同樣的標準130幾萬的標準來去算的話房價所得比會超過10啊\n\n19:01.963 --> 19:02.263\n那我要問阿\n\n19:30.163 --> 19:53.092\n為什麼房價會越打越高呢?我們還是要回到問題的根源啊。請院長評價一下蔡政府過去8年針對這個熱錢湧入房地產市場。我們怎麼樣打擊炒作?你給這樣子的這一連串的政策措施打幾分?我們也在過去就推動了多元的這個社會住宅政策。也從稅制方面推動房地合一稅。\n\n19:54.431 --> 20:21.684\n打擊短期炒作這個手段都有在做政府還是會持續做很多公共建設的開發包括軌道交通的開發這種開發都會助長當地這個房價跟生活圈的改善所以房價的高漲很多社會的因素所以院長覺得很正常而且也覺得不用改善但是政府就從居住正義的角度去做更多的平價的可以讓年輕人可以\n\n20:22.344 --> 20:50.574\n注的安心的這個角色去做但是我們在公共建設方面還是不能停下來當然當然不應該停下來公共建設是改善所有人民的生活品質嘛這本身非常同意但是高房價是一個很大的社會問題從80年代以來喔台灣的住宅政策基本上就崇尚住宅當商品市場萬能論叫去公共化的思維讓房價回歸市場機制就好啦那政府基本上雖然有少數的打擊措施但大部分都是叫做補貼式的政策啊\n\n20:50.934 --> 21:19.201\n每期名約降低青年的負擔其實就是變相鼓勵人民買房截至2022年底我國的住宅自有率高達84.6%但同時房屋貸款從20年變成30年30年變成35年甚至出現40年的房貸多少的年輕世代因為這樣子的關係陷入防止孩子二選一的困境養了孩子無力買房背了房貸無力生子\n\n21:19.921 --> 21:43.090\n面對民怨的主要對應手段我們看到政府過去的時間還是加碼加碼再加碼補貼補貼再補貼至於真正有機會能夠降低房價抑制投機的市場面的改革恐怕是牛步向前政府用社會福利的角度提供補貼租屋補貼是一種新清安的利息補貼是一種但真正的問題從來就是居住世代的不公跟市場的扭曲\n\n21:43.530 --> 22:08.908\n如果我們還是繼續只是用社會福利的角度提供社宅提供補貼來只有這樣子的角度來看待住宅政策。大家想要討好青年又不敢得罪建商。侃公家之慨卻沒有辦法解決問題。本期主張政府的思維應該轉從社會福利轉向社會投資啊。什麼叫社會投資?大家都講青年世代國家的未來。他們不應該是投資客獲利的工具。不應該也不...\n\n22:09.688 --> 22:33.984\n也不應該絕望,不應該對未來躺平以對。解決青年的住房問題,就是解決青年少子女化的問題。就是找回國家的未來最直接、最有效、也最務實的方式。我們需要政府將住宅問題再公共化,讓它回歸使用價值,要從整體市場面推動改革方案,在於改善買不起跟租不好的兩大困境,來確保居住權。\n\n22:34.924 --> 23:01.237\n財政府八年的打房措施本席市政委是不及格的。深水區的改革始終不願意碰觸。但是德賴清德總統曾經提過囤房稅2.0的想法也馬上要上路。請院長或部長簡單說明具體的內容。這樣的政策能不能增加建商的持有成本,避免囤積居奇,大搞限售鎖盤。什麼時候推動上路?預期的成效跟目標又是什麼?囤房稅2.0可能要請財政部來回答。\n\n23:05.560 --> 23:28.163\n委員一定是關心最近談到所謂新清安的問題那財政部已經就代後管理的加強做了很多這個因應的措施至於說稅制的問題我想再請部長來做說明跟委員報告有關房屋稅條例修正了以後在今年7月1號開始會上路那對於建商我們是按照要他時間內然後\n\n23:29.244 --> 23:29.484\n這很重要。\n\n23:52.867 --> 24:14.765\n因為我們前面當然不管是院長或是部長大部分的時間都談建設社宅都談租屋補貼都談包租貸款這些我也都支持可是我剛剛講的政府的邏輯不能只有社會福利要有市場面的改革囤房稅就是一種市場面的改革而且你政府已經推了方案甚至即將上路沒有什麼道理院長部長不曉得的好不好剛剛財政部長講的很清楚\n\n24:15.765 --> 24:34.794\n這個囤房稅會針對建商只有兩年的寬限期嘛,如果兩年內不把該賣的都賣掉,後面就會增加他的持有成本。請問院長,請問兩位部長,這樣子的一個政策上路之後,你有沒有預設目標?比如說我要把房價指數的往上的趨勢壓平,或者是有沒有具體的一個數字,大概多少時間內還有多少信心可以完成?\n\n24:35.575 --> 24:35.595\n當然\n\n24:50.865 --> 24:56.887\n內容部長講得很清楚,但是我的問題是什麼?我的問題是政策目標。也就是說我要把房屋指數往下降,降多少?\n\n25:16.670 --> 25:35.843\n或者是有什麼樣的一個具體的方向?你們在推動這個的時候總有一個政策成效吧?它預期的成效會是什麼?比如說我因為這樣的兩年寬限期,全國中央歸戶這樣的一個政策設計,多少年內可以釋出多少餘屋,改善市場供需不均衡的狀況?你們有相關的數據跟政策目標的具體想法嗎?\n\n25:37.591 --> 25:37.911\n好!沒關係!好!\n\n25:52.671 --> 26:12.800\n我第一次都沒關係,但是我希望後面我們在追蹤題目的時候,各式各樣的數據,院長要把它記在腦子裡面,大的方向至少要有。比如說我就覺得你們可以講25萬戶社會住宅,20幾萬戶的這個包租貸款,租屋補貼,50萬的租屋補貼,你看我都會背了,對不對?這是你也會背,大家都會背,可是不會只有這個嘛,對不對?好,你既然講剛剛大家擅長的我就來講。\n\n26:14.040 --> 26:34.837\n劉思芳部長在內政委員會答詢的時候也講2032年以前新辦25萬戶社會住宅25萬戶包租代管50萬戶的租金補貼提供100萬戶的這樣子的一個供給量這樣的政策目標八年的大目標大家都可以講但是我很好奇的是萬一如果做不到誰負責怎麼負責\n\n26:36.098 --> 27:01.853\n但是我們總不能從現在就惡意推定你八年之後一定做不到,這樣子好像也太看衰政府,我們也不會這麼不講道理。但是如果你只用八年的大目標去框這個東西的話,我覺得恐怕對於大家追蹤政策的成效來講是有負面的影響的。請問有沒有更細緻的,比如說逐年或是每兩年他的政策目標是什麼,方便所有的關注住宅議題的所有的立委也好公民團體也好可以有效來追蹤,請問有想法嗎?\n\n27:03.154 --> 27:30.096\n謝謝委員的關心我想您講的部分我們在8年內達到百萬租屋加戶的這個計畫一定會達得到為什麼到目前為止包括這個包租貸款或是租金補貼其實已經達到原來的目標那比較慢的部分就是所謂的直接興建設宅的部分那直接興建設宅的部分到今年年底的時候已經達到大概89萬戶我不要聽今年的我要聽一年後兩年後四年後八年後我們每一季一半年每一年都會做滾動式請你去整理\n\n27:31.397 --> 27:54.264\n你每兩年有一個兩年的階段目標嘛。比如說分四個階段來達成。這樣是不是大家追蹤比較具體。中間出了問題我可能會及時來調整。而不是說啊1月8年以後可以達成總量。我不要好不好。我希望有逐年詳細的目標。我也希望院長要力均力壯。萬一沒有達成是要有負起政治責任的。這樣子的一個心理準備。我們才會相信這政府在推動社會住宅政策、推動包租貸款等等的時候是玩真的齁。\n\n27:55.004 --> 28:11.728\n最後一個題目是有關於租屋的品質因為時間有限我們就不多花時間來做論述了這個地圖是夜間人口跟戶籍人口的差異這個在新北、台北、桃園、新竹、縣市大體上晚上的人都比白天人多意思是什麼\n\n28:12.088 --> 28:41.263\n除了有少部分是夜班或是移工之外大部分其實就租屋客群居的地方啦因為他不在戶籍人口之內但是在性命調查的時候他是被統計在人在這個位置的這個租屋族到底有多少人啊我們光是討論這件事搞不好可以討論30分鐘因為租屋市場是一個黑市啊我們沒有人能夠很清楚的了解這樣子的一個數字這是一個大的問題所以說除了剛剛講的囤房稅之外啊租屋市場的透明化其實也是非常非常重要的根據朝院的調查租屋的青年的困擾不可以\n\n28:41.823 --> 28:42.263\n本期的草案\n\n29:03.949 --> 29:12.701\n本黨的草案基本上都已經送進內政委員會準備來做排審。我想請問中央政府針對朱市長透明化有沒有修法的規劃有沒有具體的時間表?\n\n29:13.852 --> 29:34.838\n我先跟委員報告一下目前我們在百萬租家戶裡面所謂的包租貸款或是租金補貼的方式其實已經超過有60萬到70萬的這樣的家戶那所以我們會針對說他在租屋的過程當中包括您剛所說的這個租屋市場的津貼也好或是租屋市場的價格是否夠透明化可以提供給更多或是年輕人來做參考\n\n29:36.178 --> 29:47.602\n那我現在瞭解說像臺北市政府他們願意呢來幫忙就是把這個所有在這個網路上面的這個租屋的這個安全網設定一個讓大家可以公開跟透明化來看一下這個房價是不是合乎的規定。\n\n29:53.224 --> 30:14.421\n原來在網路上面就有這樣的租屋補貼的方式,但是它是不是夠透明化?那有願意縣市政府要投入來幫忙的話?沒關係,如果看起來沒有這麼快提版本,那我們的版本就先來排審。那排審的時候,我希望行政院用開放的態度,我們充分來做討論,好嗎?針對租屋市場透明這一塊,包租代管跟租屋補貼逐步的來納入,讓租屋市場恢復正常。\n\n30:14.921 --> 30:33.552\n大家以後才可以比較理性也比較清楚的討論政策,希望內政部是準備好了。好,最後總結一下,我們的政府樂觀但人民保守,其實原因還是分配不均。94%的人擔心物價,80%的中小企業缺乏關愛,65.7%的產業受限低薪問題,我們的房價越打越高,人民越來越苦。\n\n30:34.172 --> 30:34.352\n謝謝委員的提問\n\n","segments":[{"start":15.146,"end":40.005,"text":"現在跟議長報告,在我們議場來參訪的是美國南達科他州的州議會的訪問團在我們樓上。我們掌聲歡迎。歡迎各位。好,謝謝。我們接下來繼續請牛許庭委員,請。好,謝謝主席。行政院長、經濟部長有請。麻煩請左院長再次備詢,也請經濟部。"},{"start":50.331,"end":71.297,"text":"好,院長午安啦。這個一整天的備詢辛苦了。這個本席喔,身為年輕的國會議員喔,這個始終懷抱理想,期待我們的政府有功能,社會有良知,人民能夠獲得公平正義。薪水物價跟房價是當代台灣人民最在乎的民生指標。這個院長應該不會反對吧?"},{"start":73.766,"end":96.707,"text":"那我們今天就針對經濟發展分配正義居住正義來做一下綜合討論期待政府能夠提出好的表現跟回答首先我要請問院長跟部長捐低效應是什麼意思捐低效應你有聽過這個名詞嗎英文叫trickle down沒關係部長可以說明編記效應嗎不是編記啦捐低啊下盛經濟學聽過沒有"},{"start":98.151,"end":119.424,"text":"好沒關係我解釋給你聽喔捐低效應或稱下正經濟學是講說政策上政府的政策側重大企業透過給大企業不管是減稅也好或者是產業經濟政策的一些優惠期待讓這一群人來帶動其他人的發展透過讓一部分的人先成功然後"},{"start":120.505,"end":136.921,"text":"祈待他們可以合理的自己分配這些賺來的財富,從而間接的達成社會貧富差距越來越小的這件事情。這個概念叫做Trickle Down,叫做捐低效應。這個院長您相不相信這樣效果,這樣子說法的效果?"},{"start":137.321,"end":154.29,"text":"台灣已經是一個成熟的開發而且高科技產業非常完善的一個地方了。當一部分人先富起來那是古代中國的一個實用化,其實不適合我們現在。我們現在注重的不僅是高科技,我們希望中小微企業都能夠存不起來。"},{"start":154.85,"end":173.54,"text":"這就是所謂均衡台灣的理念。希望均衡對不對?很好,這是我本期今天第一個要提的概念。為什麼我會提這個當作開場?因為賴清德政府的經濟政策基本上最常被人家討論的叫五大信賴產業,對不對?半導體、人工智慧、軍工安控、次世代通訊。希望透過價值鏈的整合帶動經濟的成長,這個其實就是標準的。"},{"start":177.862,"end":195.062,"text":"下盛經濟學的這樣一個邏輯啊。我們討論台積電,台積電是我們護國神山。我們討論輝達,認為皮衣哥黃仁勳是臺灣之光。當我們討論這些成功的世界級的企業的時候,臺灣人都同感榮耀。這一點本席也非常同意。但本席不禁在想啊,臺灣難道只有台積電嗎?"},{"start":196.684,"end":210.532,"text":"我們的經濟難道只能圍繞著揮打嗎?我想請問院長,請問台灣中小企業的數量有多少?當然不是,中小企業才是台灣經濟的骨幹。沒錯,數量有多少?數量有多少?164萬。164萬,好,部長OK喔。大企業大概多少家?"},{"start":216.428,"end":216.608,"text":"幾百萬人"},{"start":246.314,"end":249.777,"text":"中小企業的數量163.3萬,占全國98.9%。中小企業從業人數913萬,占全部就業人口數79.98%。相對來講大企業大概是10%左右,另外有18.9%左右是在政府來上班。"},{"start":271.636,"end":299.813,"text":"我們看到這個比例不管是企業的家數或者是從業人口數就如同院長剛剛講的其實中小企業才是真正的骨幹但是我們大部分在看到整個政府在推動經濟發展跟產業政策的時候大細股、高科技、大計畫其實佔掉了大部分的篇幅本身非常擔心中小企業、服務業是被政府遺忘的一塊我很擔心在未來政府對他們的角色跟照顧恐怕是失衡的院長你對這樣的說法有沒有什麼回應"},{"start":300.473,"end":327.868,"text":"我們也很怕會造成這種錯誤的現象跟錯誤的觀點所以我們認為中小微企業能夠從數位轉型幫忙他做產業的升級才是國家經濟跟社會安定之道所以你現在有提一個概念叫轉型對不對還不錯有點方向但是我今天就講話我就比較不客氣了我要講一些一般人比較少接觸但是蠻殘酷的真相我先請問院長我們的晶片驅動台灣創新方案要投入多少資源"},{"start":331.457,"end":332.577,"text":"AI行動方案2.0我們剛啟動"},{"start":359.753,"end":375.601,"text":"經費部份確實的數字我現在四年400億馬上的3.0預計每年要投入120億但我要再接著追問你是數字答不出來我很擔心那院長我請教一下中小企業行動智慧應用計畫投入多少資源少的多民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫投入多少資源也很少"},{"start":385.387,"end":393.487,"text":"福島企業二代接班的這個叫做福島小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫剛剛院長有講的你看一下上面的圖表"},{"start":394.332,"end":418.75,"text":"民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫4年1億6千萬。中小企業行動智慧應用計畫5年1億4千萬。輔導小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫2024年剛剛上路第一年7千7百萬。我們經濟部有中小企業還跟新創並在一起叫中小企業與創新署。年度預算只有44億4千萬。"},{"start":420.811,"end":448.428,"text":"跟前面我們剛剛講的晶片驅動台灣計畫十年三千億AI行動2.0四年四百億未來3.0一年一百二十億是不是資源的投入跟政府的政策的重心有一點點落差?報告委員這一部分的話我們所投入的預算是以以後產出的這個效益為主的這個計算所以這個對這個晶創的部分跟這個AI的部分都是以"},{"start":448.989,"end":449.998,"text":"三年後五年後的產詞"},{"start":451.437,"end":480.043,"text":"作為推估的一部分。我今天我絕對不反對投資AI投資半導體。他是我們的護國神山我非常支持。但是我擔心的是政府角色的失衡。我為什麼開頭要用特別的名詞叫捐低經濟學。就是因為你永遠都只有看到龍頭的時候。你期待龍頭帶動產業鏈這個概念都沒錯。但是我要請問比如說精創產業整個半導體產業鏈受惠這3000億的資源總共有多少間企業會受惠?大的小的加起來整條半導體產業鏈大概多少家?"},{"start":481.603,"end":500.638,"text":"報告委員,我們金創台灣計畫,我們現在正在修正,我們會把晶片的應用,AI的應用的產業,那就是包括中小企業,全部會納進來,所以我們在應用的部分...以本席了解的資料,整個半導體產業鏈的上中下游,大的小的都算了,400家左右。"},{"start":501.198,"end":524.753,"text":"你看我們剛剛討論中小企業總共的家數是160幾萬家。這是我擔心的事情。第二個我也很想問你這個AI的行動計畫它可以造福多少產業?可以造福多少從業人員?對不對?這是我今天想要問的問題嗎?這是我的認同委員就是說我們在晶片產業跟AI它的應用的部分我們會推廣我們現在正在規劃這個所以會增加中小企業"},{"start":525.673,"end":540.502,"text":"我想不管是院長部長跟主委應該可以聽得出來啦就是說現在看起來資源的投入啊失衡的狀況好像比較明顯一些其實很多中小企業的專案甚至我們去爬資料啊甚至都沒有辦法在新聞媒體上露出啊因為太小了"},{"start":540.962,"end":565.171,"text":"相比這些大企業這些旗艦這小到沒有被人家關注但不能因為他小就遺忘他這是我給這個新團隊的第一個提醒希望院長可以合理的做調整而不要忽略了大部分從業人員跟基層產業的需求好不好這第一個國科會在討論這個議程的時候他有相當好的一個方向跟分析的結果將來一定從"},{"start":566.031,"end":582.266,"text":"不僅從高科技裡面還要再分高科技裡面的強弱還要落實到中小微企業主委曾經報告過這樣的計畫畢竟新團隊才剛上任我們會願意給一些時間但我希望接下來我們在追蹤這個題目的時候不要再看到這種大細膜這種狀況再來我要問喔這個股票指數屢創歷史新高國內國發會的景氣燈號攀升藍燈慢慢都變紅燈數據上看起來經濟前景很好院長看好台灣未來的經濟嗎"},{"start":593.951,"end":597.813,"text":"好,謝謝。但我要講的是人民的落差跟一般的政府也許是國外企業的落差"},{"start":612.34,"end":637.902,"text":"從覆面的總體經濟數據來看好像狀況不錯但是中央大學的臺灣經濟發展研究中心一直以來他有長時間針對家庭經濟信心、經濟景氣信心、就業信心、物價水準、購買耐久財時機跟投資股票的時機等6項信心指數進行長時間的民意調查那目前我就直接把圖表秀出來了人民的想法跟觀感跟政府的漂亮的數據其實有不小的落差"},{"start":638.422,"end":655.603,"text":"家庭經濟信心認為不太好的大概有44%左右對於經濟景氣的信心覺得不太好的大概37%到38%就業機會的信心覺得不太好的超過一半56%物價水準信心非常可怕認為物價未來會上漲的9成多"},{"start":657.11,"end":670.113,"text":"股票雖然上了兩萬多點大家都覺得很厲害但是有超過三分之二的臺灣人民不認為現在是一個投資股票的好時機啊。院長為什麼人民的感受跟政府的數據有一個顯著的落差?"},{"start":670.916,"end":691.843,"text":"我承認人民的感受我們要讓他更真實更溫暖更直接所以我說過一句話就是任何經濟的發展是繁榮的指標但是公平的分配才是文明國家的象徵公平的分配其實這個非常有切合本席在問的主題為什麼數字很好可是大部分人悲觀其實就是通貨膨脹的問題"},{"start":693.524,"end":711.521,"text":"有超過9494%的人認為物價會上漲經濟成長的好處顯然被更高的通膨給壓過去了嘛很多科技業的榮景不見得是很多中小企業所能感受的這是另外一個本席剛剛有提到的問題所以分配是非常重要的所以我們接下來談一談薪水的問題喔這個根據喔"},{"start":714.303,"end":733.908,"text":"數據資料庫的顯示我們的勞工的每月明目薪資從2020年到2024年大概成長了大概3000多塊接近一成提升的幅度不小但是其實更多人關注的是所謂的實質薪資的上漲率實質經常性薪資在同樣的時間內就是連續下降院長這代表什麼意思我們薪資的結構還是要讓他"},{"start":737.558,"end":744.766,"text":"這增加人民的所得還是要讓它增加人民的所得因為薪資名目的上漲比不上通貨膨脹的速度啊"},{"start":745.438,"end":768.987,"text":"通膨嚴重基本上全民受苦啊,受苦程度也有大有小,因為各行各業心情不太一樣。行政院主計總署的心情平台,這個用我們政府的資料,2023年統計資料顯示,我們總共有111類的產業,大家講百工百業,其中有73個類別的產業,每個月包含獎金在內,包含加班費在內,薪水其實低於5萬。"},{"start":770.828,"end":791.437,"text":"這73類的產業占全體產業類別65.7%,其中又以服務業跟中小企業為大宗。這就為什麼我開宗明一定要講分配是很重要的。面對通膨帶動的成本全面上漲,請問院長要怎麼從困境中找出路?打算用什麼樣的方法解決企業薪資停止成長的情況?院長現在有想法嗎?"},{"start":792.418,"end":805.473,"text":"那政府當然會透過每一年適當的調薪,看能不能帶動企業對整個員工的調薪。那如果說我們的經濟發展是向好的方向發展,更期待企業、僱主能夠將這個利益能夠"},{"start":807.415,"end":807.996,"text":"我們可以公開的呼籲"},{"start":823.479,"end":841.878,"text":"我們要討論的是一樣本期在乎的是中小企業的事啊針對中小企業的加薪減稅方案其實都透過修法的方式來處理嘛對不對但是一樣喔這個2016年我們針對這個東西做加薪減稅嘛也就是中小企業給員工加薪我政府給稅率優惠這個東西花了多少錢院長跟部長有掌握嗎"},{"start":843.487,"end":865.475,"text":"這個有點細節啦。2016年這個計畫第一次推出來的稅市支出1043萬,1000多萬而已。2017年753萬,然後這個計畫就中斷了。馬上要新上路,因為最近就在討論修法的方案。從高估的角度,高估最多最多也就是2.63億。如果低估的話可能只有5000萬。"},{"start":867.055,"end":892.285,"text":"對照我們剛剛給那些大企業成功的企業的各式各樣的政策優惠同樣在加薪減稅的這一塊的政府投入的資源本期期期以為不夠真的是不夠經濟政策的篇幅跟資源是政府最好的招邀金如果我們的政府一直圍繞強勢產業來訂定政策投入的資源是以百億為千億為單位就期待這些企業成為火車頭要帶動產業的成長要成為原動力這個就是"},{"start":895.147,"end":914.218,"text":"我開頭講的叫做經濟學上面的捐低效應。這是這樣的政策邏輯。但是不管藍綠過去這一段時間大家都是用這一套的邏輯去想像台灣的經濟政策。但從新制的數字人民的信心指數來看顯然沒有捐低的效果。反而形成了強者很強弱者更弱的分配問題。"},{"start":915.299,"end":929.655,"text":"我本期認為這叫方向錯誤如果政府沒有辦法及時來做調整我認為這是有負人民的託付所以本期期許在第一段的這個質詢裡面期許新政府能夠察覺問題調整政策對於中小企業服務業的發展"},{"start":930.456,"end":931.637,"text":"院長講到目前還可以接受嗎?"},{"start":954.123,"end":963.197,"text":"謝謝委員的觀點總體經濟還是很重要我們這一次很多的閣員都來自產業我們希望帶進來產業的效率最近我們也會對經濟問題在院內成立一個諮詢的委員會當中國發會經濟部財政部就會就"},{"start":969.306,"end":994.796,"text":"現在所遇到的問題跟長久以來無法解決的問題提出一個新的觀點跟看法我們期待政策在這樣子的平台搭建起來之後針對中小企業針對服務業一定要投入特別的資源沒關係因為我時間有限啦我期待啦樂觀期待你可以有像樣的這個做法但因為我們要進入到第二階段第二階段我們要談的是房價所以經濟部長等各位可以先回座休息我們內政部長有請"},{"start":1003.37,"end":1021.783,"text":"好接著我們談房價的問題根據內政部這個從全國各縣市的實價登錄交易資料顯示出來的結果可以發現住宅價格這個上升的趨勢比物價還要恐怖105年也就2016年蔡政府上臺第一年當成基準來計算房價指數100"},{"start":1022.904,"end":1051.041,"text":"到一百一十二年度的第四季也就去年的年底啊這個數字的指數啊直逼一百四啊可以說這八年裡面住宅價格上漲了接近四成啊但今天我要先問的問題是與此同時有一個非常有趣的狀況想要跟政府來做一下探討跟院長做個探討啊內政部統計的房價所得比啊好像沒什麼變也就是說房屋價格大概漲了三成多接近四成可是我看你在房價所得比好像沒有差很多以桃園市為例啊"},{"start":1051.661,"end":1052.342,"text":"院長或部長可以回答?"},{"start":1069.678,"end":1089.372,"text":"好,謝謝委員的指教。我想你大概也發現到說其實我們經濟的成長動能非常的高。所以房價在自由市場上面確實會出現這樣的狀況。那政府所推出來包括我們現在的所謂的百萬租屋、家戶的部分的追不上現在房價的速度。所以才會產生像你所說的那樣的現象。這是我們必須要來檢討改進的。"},{"start":1091.298,"end":1119.151,"text":"這個一樣是百萬,這個待會我們會針對百萬租入這個政策來做探討。我只舉一個例子,我講這個數據的不合理性,我希望政府會去做一下思考,是不是太樂觀了。比如說2020年,這個本期的選區,A級重化區,那時候大概一坪的房屋價格25萬。到2024年、2023年的年底左右,大概是35萬。其實上漲的幅度差不多就是四成。也就是說一個一千萬的兩房一廳一位的這樣一個房型,到了最近差不多都是一千四百多萬,甚至有更高的一個狀況來出現了。"},{"start":1120.632,"end":1136.9,"text":"那房價所得比的意思7.6表示不吃不喝7.6年可以買齊1000萬的房子我們就以這個為例子年收入的所得大概是131萬那到了2023年如果房價從1000萬變成1400萬的時候那照理來講我這個房價所得比我就用同樣的標準130幾萬的標準來去算的話房價所得比會超過10啊"},{"start":1141.963,"end":1142.263,"text":"那我要問阿"},{"start":1170.163,"end":1193.092,"text":"為什麼房價會越打越高呢?我們還是要回到問題的根源啊。請院長評價一下蔡政府過去8年針對這個熱錢湧入房地產市場。我們怎麼樣打擊炒作?你給這樣子的這一連串的政策措施打幾分?我們也在過去就推動了多元的這個社會住宅政策。也從稅制方面推動房地合一稅。"},{"start":1194.431,"end":1221.684,"text":"打擊短期炒作這個手段都有在做政府還是會持續做很多公共建設的開發包括軌道交通的開發這種開發都會助長當地這個房價跟生活圈的改善所以房價的高漲很多社會的因素所以院長覺得很正常而且也覺得不用改善但是政府就從居住正義的角度去做更多的平價的可以讓年輕人可以"},{"start":1222.344,"end":1250.574,"text":"注的安心的這個角色去做但是我們在公共建設方面還是不能停下來當然當然不應該停下來公共建設是改善所有人民的生活品質嘛這本身非常同意但是高房價是一個很大的社會問題從80年代以來喔台灣的住宅政策基本上就崇尚住宅當商品市場萬能論叫去公共化的思維讓房價回歸市場機制就好啦那政府基本上雖然有少數的打擊措施但大部分都是叫做補貼式的政策啊"},{"start":1250.934,"end":1279.201,"text":"每期名約降低青年的負擔其實就是變相鼓勵人民買房截至2022年底我國的住宅自有率高達84.6%但同時房屋貸款從20年變成30年30年變成35年甚至出現40年的房貸多少的年輕世代因為這樣子的關係陷入防止孩子二選一的困境養了孩子無力買房背了房貸無力生子"},{"start":1279.921,"end":1303.09,"text":"面對民怨的主要對應手段我們看到政府過去的時間還是加碼加碼再加碼補貼補貼再補貼至於真正有機會能夠降低房價抑制投機的市場面的改革恐怕是牛步向前政府用社會福利的角度提供補貼租屋補貼是一種新清安的利息補貼是一種但真正的問題從來就是居住世代的不公跟市場的扭曲"},{"start":1303.53,"end":1328.908,"text":"如果我們還是繼續只是用社會福利的角度提供社宅提供補貼來只有這樣子的角度來看待住宅政策。大家想要討好青年又不敢得罪建商。侃公家之慨卻沒有辦法解決問題。本期主張政府的思維應該轉從社會福利轉向社會投資啊。什麼叫社會投資?大家都講青年世代國家的未來。他們不應該是投資客獲利的工具。不應該也不..."},{"start":1329.688,"end":1353.984,"text":"也不應該絕望,不應該對未來躺平以對。解決青年的住房問題,就是解決青年少子女化的問題。就是找回國家的未來最直接、最有效、也最務實的方式。我們需要政府將住宅問題再公共化,讓它回歸使用價值,要從整體市場面推動改革方案,在於改善買不起跟租不好的兩大困境,來確保居住權。"},{"start":1354.924,"end":1381.237,"text":"財政府八年的打房措施本席市政委是不及格的。深水區的改革始終不願意碰觸。但是德賴清德總統曾經提過囤房稅2.0的想法也馬上要上路。請院長或部長簡單說明具體的內容。這樣的政策能不能增加建商的持有成本,避免囤積居奇,大搞限售鎖盤。什麼時候推動上路?預期的成效跟目標又是什麼?囤房稅2.0可能要請財政部來回答。"},{"start":1385.56,"end":1408.163,"text":"委員一定是關心最近談到所謂新清安的問題那財政部已經就代後管理的加強做了很多這個因應的措施至於說稅制的問題我想再請部長來做說明跟委員報告有關房屋稅條例修正了以後在今年7月1號開始會上路那對於建商我們是按照要他時間內然後"},{"start":1409.244,"end":1409.484,"text":"這很重要。"},{"start":1432.867,"end":1454.765,"text":"因為我們前面當然不管是院長或是部長大部分的時間都談建設社宅都談租屋補貼都談包租貸款這些我也都支持可是我剛剛講的政府的邏輯不能只有社會福利要有市場面的改革囤房稅就是一種市場面的改革而且你政府已經推了方案甚至即將上路沒有什麼道理院長部長不曉得的好不好剛剛財政部長講的很清楚"},{"start":1455.765,"end":1474.794,"text":"這個囤房稅會針對建商只有兩年的寬限期嘛,如果兩年內不把該賣的都賣掉,後面就會增加他的持有成本。請問院長,請問兩位部長,這樣子的一個政策上路之後,你有沒有預設目標?比如說我要把房價指數的往上的趨勢壓平,或者是有沒有具體的一個數字,大概多少時間內還有多少信心可以完成?"},{"start":1475.575,"end":1475.595,"text":"當然"},{"start":1490.865,"end":1496.887,"text":"內容部長講得很清楚,但是我的問題是什麼?我的問題是政策目標。也就是說我要把房屋指數往下降,降多少?"},{"start":1516.67,"end":1535.843,"text":"或者是有什麼樣的一個具體的方向?你們在推動這個的時候總有一個政策成效吧?它預期的成效會是什麼?比如說我因為這樣的兩年寬限期,全國中央歸戶這樣的一個政策設計,多少年內可以釋出多少餘屋,改善市場供需不均衡的狀況?你們有相關的數據跟政策目標的具體想法嗎?"},{"start":1537.591,"end":1537.911,"text":"好!沒關係!好!"},{"start":1552.671,"end":1572.8,"text":"我第一次都沒關係,但是我希望後面我們在追蹤題目的時候,各式各樣的數據,院長要把它記在腦子裡面,大的方向至少要有。比如說我就覺得你們可以講25萬戶社會住宅,20幾萬戶的這個包租貸款,租屋補貼,50萬的租屋補貼,你看我都會背了,對不對?這是你也會背,大家都會背,可是不會只有這個嘛,對不對?好,你既然講剛剛大家擅長的我就來講。"},{"start":1574.04,"end":1594.837,"text":"劉思芳部長在內政委員會答詢的時候也講2032年以前新辦25萬戶社會住宅25萬戶包租代管50萬戶的租金補貼提供100萬戶的這樣子的一個供給量這樣的政策目標八年的大目標大家都可以講但是我很好奇的是萬一如果做不到誰負責怎麼負責"},{"start":1596.098,"end":1621.853,"text":"但是我們總不能從現在就惡意推定你八年之後一定做不到,這樣子好像也太看衰政府,我們也不會這麼不講道理。但是如果你只用八年的大目標去框這個東西的話,我覺得恐怕對於大家追蹤政策的成效來講是有負面的影響的。請問有沒有更細緻的,比如說逐年或是每兩年他的政策目標是什麼,方便所有的關注住宅議題的所有的立委也好公民團體也好可以有效來追蹤,請問有想法嗎?"},{"start":1623.154,"end":1650.096,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想您講的部分我們在8年內達到百萬租屋加戶的這個計畫一定會達得到為什麼到目前為止包括這個包租貸款或是租金補貼其實已經達到原來的目標那比較慢的部分就是所謂的直接興建設宅的部分那直接興建設宅的部分到今年年底的時候已經達到大概89萬戶我不要聽今年的我要聽一年後兩年後四年後八年後我們每一季一半年每一年都會做滾動式請你去整理"},{"start":1651.397,"end":1674.264,"text":"你每兩年有一個兩年的階段目標嘛。比如說分四個階段來達成。這樣是不是大家追蹤比較具體。中間出了問題我可能會及時來調整。而不是說啊1月8年以後可以達成總量。我不要好不好。我希望有逐年詳細的目標。我也希望院長要力均力壯。萬一沒有達成是要有負起政治責任的。這樣子的一個心理準備。我們才會相信這政府在推動社會住宅政策、推動包租貸款等等的時候是玩真的齁。"},{"start":1675.004,"end":1691.728,"text":"最後一個題目是有關於租屋的品質因為時間有限我們就不多花時間來做論述了這個地圖是夜間人口跟戶籍人口的差異這個在新北、台北、桃園、新竹、縣市大體上晚上的人都比白天人多意思是什麼"},{"start":1692.088,"end":1721.263,"text":"除了有少部分是夜班或是移工之外大部分其實就租屋客群居的地方啦因為他不在戶籍人口之內但是在性命調查的時候他是被統計在人在這個位置的這個租屋族到底有多少人啊我們光是討論這件事搞不好可以討論30分鐘因為租屋市場是一個黑市啊我們沒有人能夠很清楚的了解這樣子的一個數字這是一個大的問題所以說除了剛剛講的囤房稅之外啊租屋市場的透明化其實也是非常非常重要的根據朝院的調查租屋的青年的困擾不可以"},{"start":1721.823,"end":1722.263,"text":"本期的草案"},{"start":1743.949,"end":1752.701,"text":"本黨的草案基本上都已經送進內政委員會準備來做排審。我想請問中央政府針對朱市長透明化有沒有修法的規劃有沒有具體的時間表?"},{"start":1753.852,"end":1774.838,"text":"我先跟委員報告一下目前我們在百萬租家戶裡面所謂的包租貸款或是租金補貼的方式其實已經超過有60萬到70萬的這樣的家戶那所以我們會針對說他在租屋的過程當中包括您剛所說的這個租屋市場的津貼也好或是租屋市場的價格是否夠透明化可以提供給更多或是年輕人來做參考"},{"start":1776.178,"end":1787.602,"text":"那我現在瞭解說像臺北市政府他們願意呢來幫忙就是把這個所有在這個網路上面的這個租屋的這個安全網設定一個讓大家可以公開跟透明化來看一下這個房價是不是合乎的規定。"},{"start":1793.224,"end":1814.421,"text":"原來在網路上面就有這樣的租屋補貼的方式,但是它是不是夠透明化?那有願意縣市政府要投入來幫忙的話?沒關係,如果看起來沒有這麼快提版本,那我們的版本就先來排審。那排審的時候,我希望行政院用開放的態度,我們充分來做討論,好嗎?針對租屋市場透明這一塊,包租代管跟租屋補貼逐步的來納入,讓租屋市場恢復正常。"},{"start":1814.921,"end":1833.552,"text":"大家以後才可以比較理性也比較清楚的討論政策,希望內政部是準備好了。好,最後總結一下,我們的政府樂觀但人民保守,其實原因還是分配不均。94%的人擔心物價,80%的中小企業缺乏關愛,65.7%的產業受限低薪問題,我們的房價越打越高,人民越來越苦。"},{"start":1834.172,"end":1834.352,"text":"謝謝委員的提問"}]}}}}