{"id":154116,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154116","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ceaf6abec8b4a6d1a2a2a425e5c14d79dd1cafa7fa6f2716d9cf7c665f384391b1c8797d1715c815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"09:55:18 - 10:05:55","影片長度":"00:10:37","會議時間":"2024-06-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十一條之一條文等覆議案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-20","start_time":"2024-06-20T09:55:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-20T10:05:55+08:00","duration":637,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議","id":"全院委員會-11-1-1","type":"全院委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":358,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（9時55分）不好意思！主席，請卓榮泰院長，謝謝。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["葉委員元之：院長好！"],["卓院長榮泰：葉委員好！"],["葉委員元之：你好！剛剛聽到前一位委員又在說國民黨不愛臺灣，我真的覺得很悲哀！有些人總是喜歡在臺灣裡面找敵人，把跟自己意見不同的就扣帽子說不愛臺灣，大家都是在臺灣生臺灣長，都是為臺灣好，即便是意見不同，也不須要給人家扣帽子，院長同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我非常希望臺灣是這樣一個社會，所以每個人對自己的言行都要嚴謹的負責任。"],["葉委員元之：院長，雖然我現在跟你意見一定不一樣，但我不會說你不愛臺灣，只有我才愛臺灣，因為大家都愛臺灣……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為到現在為止我們都一樣啊！"],["葉委員元之：對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！"],["葉委員元之：所以意見不一樣，可以討論，但是不要扣帽子！我覺得大家一直講民主，這才是民主的真諦……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["葉委員元之：我尊重你的意見跟我不一樣，而且我尊重你講話的自由及權利，對吧！院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：很好！謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：不要扣帽子，好嗎？院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。","今天因為是針對覆議案來質詢，我想跟院長先確認一下你的幾個覆議的理由，到底它實際上是什麼意思，因為有一些覆議的理由其他委員已經有跟你深入討論了，我針對一些我看到、比較少討論的部分來跟你就教。第二點你有提到我們現在的版本「混淆雙首長制，質詢總統違憲」，對吧！這個第二點是你們的理由嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["葉委員元之：請問院長，你覺得臺灣現在的制度是雙首長制嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們憲法的設計是這樣子。"],["葉委員元之：是喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葉委員元之：是雙首長制，雙首長制的特色是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是民選的總統任用行政院長，行政院長向國會負責。"],["葉委員元之：好，那你知道我們國家就你定義的雙首長制跟法國的雙首長制有什麼不一樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：不一樣，它的是總理……"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：它是總理制，總統也是民選……"],["葉委員元之：最大的不一樣是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：面對的國會結構不一樣。"],["葉委員元之：不是，有一個最大的不一樣，你知道嗎？因為你講到雙首長制，我想必你對雙首長制很有研究，所以我才會問你這個問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：它是總理制。"],["葉委員元之：你知不知道我們跟法國雙首長制最大的不一樣是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：它是總理制，總理是選……"],["葉委員元之：總理是怎麼選出來的？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說面對的國會結構不一樣。"],["葉委員元之：總理是怎麼產生的，您知道嗎？總理怎麼產生的？"],["卓院長榮泰：總理是選舉出來的。"],["葉委員元之：不是，跟院長報告，法國的雙首長制實際上叫做行政權雙軌制，就是如果總統跟國會多數黨是同一個黨的時候，最高行政首長就是總統，但是只要總統跟國會最大黨不一樣黨的時候，就由國會最大黨來決定總理，行政權這時候又換到總理那邊去了，所以它是換軌的……"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！我說它是國會的結構不一樣……"],["葉委員元之：它是換軌的，就是要嘛就是總統是最高行政首長，要嘛就是總理是最高行政首長，跟臺灣所謂的雙首長制是完全不一樣的結構，所以大家講臺灣的這個制度跟法國的比是弱很多，你知道為什麼嗎？最主要的原因是因為我們現在的雙首長制形成了一種總統有權無責但是行政院長有責無權的狀況，其實這個在民主體制是非常不健康的，因為什麼叫民主？民主就是責任權力相符，就是總統有極大的權力，但是要受到相對應的監督，人民的聲音反映給總統，總統施行任何政策順應民意，這是民主的真諦，可是在我們國家的制度，行政院長已經變成了總統的執行長，當然院長接受國會的監督，可是你不是實際上做決定的人，這個才是我們國家不符合民主的最主要原因，院長，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不知道……"],["葉委員元之：你不知道，好，我跟你說……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為你說的是不對的，所以我不知道。"],["葉委員元之：好，你不知道沒關係！賴清德……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為你說的是不對的。"],["葉委員元之：賴清德總統知道啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：你說的是不對的，所以我不知道。"],["葉委員元之：因為賴清德總統在2016年跟他之前在當臺南市長的時候，多次強調臺灣要朝向內閣制的雙首長制比較健康。他自己提出來，他說我們的閣揆行政院長應該要經過國會同意，這個是賴清德總統講的，你可以看一下，為什麼要經過立院同意？因為賴清德總統發現我們的制度不對，才真正造成民主危機。"],["卓院長榮泰：這要透過憲法的過程去努力。"],["葉委員元之：所以我要告訴院長的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：修法、修憲是立法院的職權。"],["葉委員元之：第一，你的覆議理由第二點混淆雙首長制，你並沒有很瞭解我們國家到底是什麼制度，我們國家實際上是總統制，總統才是最高行政首長，如果按照您提到的我們國家是雙首長制的話，您才是最高行政首長，所以你的權力是大於總統的囉？"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉！抱歉！委員，在憲法規定上，行政院長就是最高的行政首長。"],["葉委員元之：但是實際上決策的人不是你，你的決策可以超過總統嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：除了國防、外交、兩岸之外，做最終決策的當然是行政院。"],["葉委員元之：你的決策可不可以超過總統？總統如果叫你做A，你可以說不要、我要做B嗎？你的權力有沒有大過總統？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以跟總統很深入地去討論和決定。"],["葉委員元之：但是決定還是總統。"],["卓院長榮泰：決定在行政院。"],["葉委員元之：所以你比總統大？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統是民選……"],["葉委員元之：在政策上面，如果總統叫你往A，你說不對，總統應該往B，要聽我的，我才是最高行政首長，你敢跟總統講這樣的話嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會說明理由據理爭取。"],["葉委員元之：據理力爭，但是最後決定權還是在總統，所以今天……"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院該決定的事項就在行政院決定。"],["葉委員元之：我不針對你個人，可是過去憲政……"],["卓院長榮泰：就像我們很多政策也要跟立法院討論是一樣的。"],["葉委員元之：但是過去憲政的運作，很多都是總統決定，像開放美豬或是高端，這些都是總統決定的，行政院院長就是來備詢……"],["卓院長榮泰：基本上，國防、外交、兩岸當然總統會做最終的決定，其他之外，行政院是最高行政機關。"],["葉委員元之：但是很多內政最後還是總統決定，就像總統昨天成立了三個委員會，其中一個委員會跟國防有關，另外兩個委員會，一個是跟環境有關，另外一個是跟衛生有關，理論上來講，這兩個是屬於行政院的權責，可是我們並沒有在行政院下面另外設委員會，而是在總統府下設委員會，就變成一個太上皇機關。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，健康臺灣是總統選舉時很重要的一個政見，所以從這個角度來看，成立一個健康臺灣委員會是應該，而且是被社會接受的。"],["葉委員元之：沒有錯，所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：環境問題未來牽扯到的是整個國際戰略的問題。"],["葉委員元之：我同意、我同意，所以現在我們國家最高行政首長就是總統。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是！"],["葉委員元之：因為他在選舉的時候會提一些政見，而這些政見必須要落實。"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院也會成立經濟發展諮詢委員會。"],["葉委員元之：他必須落實，所以諮詢委員會做出來的結論會影響行政院，但是做出這個決策者不需要到立法院來備詢，導致於有權無責的狀況。"],["卓院長榮泰：這些都是跨黨派的社會人士，他不一定會到立法院來備詢。"],["葉委員元之：對，沒錯，所以有權無責嘛！其實我們兩人的討論並沒有什麼太大的歧見，我只是要告訴院長，對，沒錯，總統有政見要落實、要跨黨派，總統做出最後決策以後要求行政院執行，所以行政院就是總統的CEO，但是總統不需要到國會接受監督。"],["卓院長榮泰：在總統府的三個委員會當中，副召集人多數也都是行政院的代表。"],["葉委員元之：那為什麼要在總統府下設委員會，直接在行政院下面設就好了？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院有行政院成立的經濟委員會。"],["葉委員元之：那就疊床架屋啦！到時候要聽誰的，要聽總統的，還是聽行政院長的？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是行政分工。"],["葉委員元之：你講一句話會產生三個問題，這就是制度問題，所以我們國家不是雙首長制，我們國家就是總統制。"],["卓院長榮泰：嚴格講是偏向總統制的雙首長制。"],["葉委員元之：雙首長制的意思是行政權要換到您的手上，所有事情就由你來決定。"],["卓院長榮泰：事實上是如此。"],["葉委員元之：沒有啊！如果有的話，為什麼要設三個委員會？再來，在第二點後面那一項是質詢總統違憲，我們並沒有質詢總統，那是邀請總統來報告。"],["卓院長榮泰：依序即時回答。"],["葉委員元之：其實那個是問答，而且是依序。"],["卓院長榮泰：有問有答就是有質詢。"],["葉委員元之：但是到底要怎麼問答，其實是要保留給朝野協商。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這是法律的不明確性。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，大家朝野協商。"],["卓院長榮泰：怎麼可以對總統被邀請來會經過什麼樣的質詢，是他來了之前才決定該用什麼方式呢？"],["葉委員元之：那不是質詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個就是法律的不明確性。"],["葉委員元之：但那不是質詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：那是什麼？"],["葉委員元之：院長，你知不知道什麼是質詢？我等一下再跟你討論。我們接下來看，因為你是大師兄，我也是很尊敬你，但是有些黨友的言論我實在聽不懂，這位是前內政部長林右昌，他說國民黨和民眾黨立委聯合修法，把自己變成法官，叫你到立法院問話，你藐視國會，國民黨、民眾黨多數舉手判你有罪。請問在我們通過的法條哪一條是這樣規定？"],["卓院長榮泰：經過一人的提案、五位委員的連署，就可以把他移送，針對的是政府人員……"],["葉委員元之：他說對一般民眾，請問一下，對一般民眾，國民黨、民眾黨舉手就可以把你判罪嗎？有這一條嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是政府人員。"],["葉委員元之：那你要不要跟林右昌講一下，叫他不要造謠？有認識嗎？我不知道他是中文不好，還是刻意要混淆啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我要跟他講，雖然政府人員也是人民，但是這個用詞應該稍微精確一點。"],["葉委員元之：對，但他現在是煽動，下面都是群眾啊！就跟民眾說好可怕啦！國會這個法案通過，你們都要被抓去關。院長，可以這樣嗎？而且一個做過內政部長的人，內政部長要不要依法行政，要吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：只要是政府官員都必須依法行政。"],["葉委員元之：如果官員看不懂法條，是不是很恐怖的一件事？而且那個法條應該小學程度的人都看得懂啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：官員要熟讀法條。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以怎麼會看不懂？是中文不好，還是心腸不好？院長，以大師兄的名義跟他勸誡一下，可以嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員。","下一位請莊瑞雄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-1-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳昭姿","王定宇","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","賴惠員","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林德福","黃捷","王育敏","郭國文","柯志恩","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","黃健豪","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","王世堅","吳宗憲","陳俊宇","謝衣鳯","沈伯洋","翁曉玲"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-06-20"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00007","1136001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十\n一條之一條文等覆議案","agenda_id":"1136001_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"154116","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154116","tool":"pyannote","id":"154116-pyannote"},"job_id":"d9oScwcy0wyLaeaT","queued_at":"2024-06-20 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\"end\": 614.849, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 614.849, \"end\": 614.869, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"莊\"}, {\"word\": \"瑞\", \"start\": 614.869, \"end\": 615.129, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"雄\", \"start\": 615.129, \"end\": 615.329, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 615.329, \"end\": 615.349, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,347 --> 00:00:12,811\n主席請找卓榮泰院長,謝謝來請卓院長備詢好,院長好院委員好你好,剛剛聽到前一位委員又在說國民黨不愛台灣\n\n2\n00:00:27,679 --> 00:00:44,362\n我真的覺得很悲哀啦就是說有些人總是喜歡在台灣裡面找敵人把意見不同跟自己意見不同就扣帽子說不愛台灣大家都是在台灣生台灣長都是為台灣好即便是意見不同啦也不需要給人家扣帽子啦院長你同意嗎\n\n3\n00:00:45,302 --> 00:01:13,216\n我非常希望台灣是這樣一個社會所以每個人對自己的言行都要負責任院長我現在跟你意見一定不一樣嘛但我不會說你不愛台灣只有我才愛台灣因為現在為止我們都一樣啊對不對所以意見可以不一樣可以討論嘛但是不要扣帽子啦我覺得這個大家一直講民主啦這才是民主的真諦我尊重你的意見跟我不一樣但是我尊重你講話的自由跟權利對吧院長不要扣帽子好嗎好院長謝謝\n\n4\n00:01:14,477 --> 00:01:32,627\n那今天因為是針對覆議案來質詢我想跟院長先確認一下你的幾個覆議的理由那到底他實際上是什麼意思那因為有一些不理由其他委員已經有跟你深入討論了我針對有一些我看到比較少討論的部分來跟你就教第二點你有提到說\n\n5\n00:01:33,968 --> 00:01:51,523\n有一個理由是我們現在的版本混淆雙手掌制然後質詢總統違憲對吧這第二點是你們的理由吧請問院長你覺得台灣現在的制度是雙手掌制嗎我們憲法的設計是這樣子是齁是雙手掌制那雙手掌制的特色是什麼就是民選的總統第一\n\n6\n00:01:54,699 --> 00:01:56,461\n任用行政院長向國會負責。\n\n7\n00:02:10,836 --> 00:02:27,805\n最大不一樣面對的國會的結構不一樣不是有一個最大不一樣你知道嗎因為你講到雙首長制我想必你對雙首長制很有研究所以我才問你這個問題你知不知道我們跟法國雙首長制最大的不一樣是什麼總理是怎麼樣怎麼選出來的總理是怎麼產生的總理選舉出來的\n\n8\n00:02:39,035 --> 00:02:53,450\n法國的雙首長制實際上叫做行政權雙軌制,就是如果總統跟國會多數黨是同一個黨的時候,最高行政首長就是總統。但是只要總統跟國會最大黨不一樣的時候,就由國會最大黨來決定總理。\n\n9\n00:02:58,815 --> 00:03:21,594\n所以行政權這時候又換到總理那邊去了所以他是換鬼的就是說要嘛就是總統是最高行政首長要嘛就是總理是最高行政首長跟台灣所謂的雙首長制是完全不一樣的結構那所以你知道為什麼大家講說台灣的這個制度跟法國的比啊是弱很多你知道為什麼嗎\n\n10\n00:03:22,881 --> 00:03:41,297\n最主要原因是因為我們現在的雙手掌制啊形成了一種總統有權無責但是行政院長有責無權的狀況其實這個在民主體制是非常不健康的因為所謂的民主什麼叫民主民主就是責任權力相輔嘛\n\n11\n00:03:41,917 --> 00:04:10,857\n就是說你這個總統有極大的權力但是你要受到相對應的監督然後人民的聲音反映給總統總統施行任何政策順應民意這個是民主的真諦可是在我們國家的制度啊行政院長已經變成了總統的執行長所以當然院長每次來接受國會的監督可是你不是實際上做決定的人這個才是我們國家不符合民主的最主要原因院長你知道嗎\n\n12\n00:04:11,698 --> 00:04:14,901\n因為賴清德總統在2016年跟二林跟他之前在當台南市長的時候多次強調台灣要朝向內閣制的雙手黨制比較健康\n\n13\n00:04:32,742 --> 00:04:51,421\n他自己提出來他說我們的葛奎行政院長應該要經過國會的同意這個是賴清德總統講的你可以看一下要經過立院同意為什麼因為賴清德總統他自己發現說我們的制度不對啦我們的制度不對才真正造成民主危機\n\n14\n00:04:52,162 --> 00:04:56,564\n所以第一齁你的復議的理由第二點混淆雙首長制實際上你並沒有很了解我們國家到底什麼制度我們國家實際上是總統制就是總統才是最高行政首長\n\n15\n00:05:11,852 --> 00:05:27,525\n如果按照您提到的我們國家是雙首長制的話那您才是最高行政首長可是你可以所以你的權利是大於總統的喔抱歉委員在憲法規定上行政院、全政院長就是最高的行政首長但是實際上決策的人不是你嘛\n\n16\n00:05:28,166 --> 00:05:28,406\n所以你比總統大\n\n17\n00:05:47,139 --> 00:06:15,550\n所以你在政策上面,如果總統叫你往A,你說不對,總統應該B,要聽我的,我才是最高行政首長,你敢跟總統講這樣的話嗎?我們會說明理由,據理的這個律政,但是最後決定權還在總統。所以今天,行政院該決定的事項就在行政院決定。對啦,可是過去,憲政,我不針對你個人。就像我們很多的政策也要跟立法院討論是一樣的啊。但是過去憲政的運作,很多都是總統決定嘛,像要開放美豬啊,\n\n18\n00:06:16,290 --> 00:06:18,132\n其中當然有一個委員會是跟國防有關但另外兩個委員會一個是跟環境有關另外一個是跟\n\n19\n00:06:39,092 --> 00:06:58,102\n衛生有關這兩個理論上來講是屬於行政院的權責可是我們並沒有在行政院下面在另外社委員會我們是在總統府下社委員會就變成一個太上皇機關因此各位報告健康台灣是總統選舉時候很重要的一個政見所以從這裡角度來看成立一個健康台灣的委員會\n\n20\n00:06:59,022 --> 00:07:12,392\n是應該．而且是該市委接受．沒錯．所以．環境的問題未來牽扯到是整個國際戰略的問題．我同意．我同意．所以現在我們國家最高行政總黨就是總統．不是．因為他在選舉的時候會提一些政見．行政院．而這些政見必須要落實．而這些政見必須要落實．\n\n21\n00:07:15,954 --> 00:07:33,002\n他必須落實所以諮詢委員會做出來結論會去影響行政院但是做出這個決策者他不需要到立法院來備詢導致於有權無責的狀況但這些都是跨黨派的社會人士他不一定會到立法院來對沒錯所以有權無責\n\n22\n00:07:34,122 --> 00:08:01,280\n其實我們要討論的,我們兩個討論並沒有什麼太大的旗艦我只要告訴院長說,對沒錯,總統有政見,他要落實,要放黨派但是最後總統決策以後,要求行政院來執行所以行政院就是總統的CEO但是總統不需要到國會來接受監督副召集人在總統府的三個委員會當中副召集人多數也都是行政院的代表那為什麼要在總統委員會,那就直接行政院下面設就好了行政院有行政院成立經濟委員會\n\n23\n00:08:02,361 --> 00:08:26,818\n那就跌床駕屋啦,到時候要聽誰的,要聽誰的,要聽總統的還聽行政院長的。所以你看,你講一句話就會產生三個問題,這就是制度問題嘛。所以我們國家不是雙手掌制,我們國家就是總統制。嚴格講也是偏向總統制的雙手掌制。雙手掌制的意思是說行政權要換到您的手上啦,所有事情就你來決定了。事實上是如此啊?沒有啊,我們如果有的話為什麼要三個委員會?\n\n24\n00:08:30,119 --> 00:08:55,724\n在第二點後面那一項質詢總統違憲我們並沒有質詢總統那個是邀請總統來報告依序及時問答其實那個是問答問答而且是依序有問有答有問有答是依序問答但是到底要怎麼問答其實是要保留給朝野協商所以這是法律的不免協定沒有那大家朝野協商呢\n\n25\n00:08:56,724 --> 00:09:18,192\n對總統邀請來會經過什麼樣的質詢是他來了之前才決定他該用什麼的方式呢?不是質詢嘛等一下什麼是質詢我等一下但那不是質詢那個院長我不知道說你知不知道什麼是質詢我等一下跟你討論好我們接下來看齁這個有一些那個有一些你們黨友啦因為你是大師兄我也是很尊敬你有一些黨友的言論我才聽不懂齁\n\n26\n00:09:18,992 --> 00:09:32,706\n這位是前內政部黨林佑昌他說國民黨跟民眾黨立委聯合修法把自己變成法官叫你到立法院問話然後你藐視國會國民黨民眾黨多數舉手判以有罪請問一下在我們通過的法條哪一條是這樣規定\n\n27\n00:09:34,582 --> 00:09:37,604\n那你要不要跟林佑昌講一下叫他不要造謠有認識嗎?\n\n28\n00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,181\n我要跟他講,雖然政府人員也是人民,但是這個用詞稍微應該精準一點。\n\n29\n00:10:14,149 --> 00:10:15,349\n好,謝謝葉委員下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9347\t12811\t主席請找卓榮泰院長,謝謝來請卓院長備詢好,院長好院委員好你好,剛剛聽到前一位委員又在說國民黨不愛台灣\n27679\t44362\t我真的覺得很悲哀啦就是說有些人總是喜歡在台灣裡面找敵人把意見不同跟自己意見不同就扣帽子說不愛台灣大家都是在台灣生台灣長都是為台灣好即便是意見不同啦也不需要給人家扣帽子啦院長你同意嗎\n45302\t73216\t我非常希望台灣是這樣一個社會所以每個人對自己的言行都要負責任院長我現在跟你意見一定不一樣嘛但我不會說你不愛台灣只有我才愛台灣因為現在為止我們都一樣啊對不對所以意見可以不一樣可以討論嘛但是不要扣帽子啦我覺得這個大家一直講民主啦這才是民主的真諦我尊重你的意見跟我不一樣但是我尊重你講話的自由跟權利對吧院長不要扣帽子好嗎好院長謝謝\n74477\t92627\t那今天因為是針對覆議案來質詢我想跟院長先確認一下你的幾個覆議的理由那到底他實際上是什麼意思那因為有一些不理由其他委員已經有跟你深入討論了我針對有一些我看到比較少討論的部分來跟你就教第二點你有提到說\n93968\t111523\t有一個理由是我們現在的版本混淆雙手掌制然後質詢總統違憲對吧這第二點是你們的理由吧請問院長你覺得台灣現在的制度是雙手掌制嗎我們憲法的設計是這樣子是齁是雙手掌制那雙手掌制的特色是什麼就是民選的總統第一\n114699\t116461\t任用行政院長向國會負責。\n130836\t147805\t最大不一樣面對的國會的結構不一樣不是有一個最大不一樣你知道嗎因為你講到雙首長制我想必你對雙首長制很有研究所以我才問你這個問題你知不知道我們跟法國雙首長制最大的不一樣是什麼總理是怎麼樣怎麼選出來的總理是怎麼產生的總理選舉出來的\n159035\t173450\t法國的雙首長制實際上叫做行政權雙軌制,就是如果總統跟國會多數黨是同一個黨的時候,最高行政首長就是總統。但是只要總統跟國會最大黨不一樣的時候,就由國會最大黨來決定總理。\n178815\t201594\t所以行政權這時候又換到總理那邊去了所以他是換鬼的就是說要嘛就是總統是最高行政首長要嘛就是總理是最高行政首長跟台灣所謂的雙首長制是完全不一樣的結構那所以你知道為什麼大家講說台灣的這個制度跟法國的比啊是弱很多你知道為什麼嗎\n202881\t221297\t最主要原因是因為我們現在的雙手掌制啊形成了一種總統有權無責但是行政院長有責無權的狀況其實這個在民主體制是非常不健康的因為所謂的民主什麼叫民主民主就是責任權力相輔嘛\n221917\t250857\t就是說你這個總統有極大的權力但是你要受到相對應的監督然後人民的聲音反映給總統總統施行任何政策順應民意這個是民主的真諦可是在我們國家的制度啊行政院長已經變成了總統的執行長所以當然院長每次來接受國會的監督可是你不是實際上做決定的人這個才是我們國家不符合民主的最主要原因院長你知道嗎\n251698\t254901\t因為賴清德總統在2016年跟二林跟他之前在當台南市長的時候多次強調台灣要朝向內閣制的雙手黨制比較健康\n272742\t291421\t他自己提出來他說我們的葛奎行政院長應該要經過國會的同意這個是賴清德總統講的你可以看一下要經過立院同意為什麼因為賴清德總統他自己發現說我們的制度不對啦我們的制度不對才真正造成民主危機\n292162\t296564\t所以第一齁你的復議的理由第二點混淆雙首長制實際上你並沒有很了解我們國家到底什麼制度我們國家實際上是總統制就是總統才是最高行政首長\n311852\t327525\t如果按照您提到的我們國家是雙首長制的話那您才是最高行政首長可是你可以所以你的權利是大於總統的喔抱歉委員在憲法規定上行政院、全政院長就是最高的行政首長但是實際上決策的人不是你嘛\n328166\t328406\t所以你比總統大\n347139\t375550\t所以你在政策上面,如果總統叫你往A,你說不對,總統應該B,要聽我的,我才是最高行政首長,你敢跟總統講這樣的話嗎?我們會說明理由,據理的這個律政,但是最後決定權還在總統。所以今天,行政院該決定的事項就在行政院決定。對啦,可是過去,憲政,我不針對你個人。就像我們很多的政策也要跟立法院討論是一樣的啊。但是過去憲政的運作,很多都是總統決定嘛,像要開放美豬啊,\n376290\t378132\t其中當然有一個委員會是跟國防有關但另外兩個委員會一個是跟環境有關另外一個是跟\n399092\t418102\t衛生有關這兩個理論上來講是屬於行政院的權責可是我們並沒有在行政院下面在另外社委員會我們是在總統府下社委員會就變成一個太上皇機關 因此 各位報告健康台灣是總統選舉時候很重要的一個政見所以從這裡角度來看成立一個健康台灣的委員會\n419022\t432392\t是應該．而且是該市委接受．沒錯．所以．環境的問題未來牽扯到是整個國際戰略的問題．我同意．我同意．所以現在我們國家最高行政總黨就是總統．不是．因為他在選舉的時候會提一些政見．行政院．而這些政見必須要落實．而這些政見必須要落實．\n435954\t453002\t他必須落實所以諮詢委員會做出來結論會去影響行政院但是做出這個決策者他不需要到立法院來備詢導致於有權無責的狀況但這些都是跨黨派的社會人士他不一定會到立法院來對沒錯所以有權無責\n454122\t481280\t其實我們要討論的,我們兩個討論並沒有什麼太大的旗艦我只要告訴院長說,對沒錯,總統有政見,他要落實,要放黨派但是最後總統決策以後,要求行政院來執行所以行政院就是總統的CEO但是總統不需要到國會來接受監督副召集人在總統府的三個委員會當中副召集人多數也都是行政院的代表那為什麼要在總統委員會,那就直接行政院下面設就好了行政院有行政院成立經濟委員會\n482361\t506818\t那就跌床駕屋啦,到時候要聽誰的,要聽誰的,要聽總統的還聽行政院長的。所以你看,你講一句話就會產生三個問題,這就是制度問題嘛。所以我們國家不是雙手掌制,我們國家就是總統制。嚴格講也是偏向總統制的雙手掌制。雙手掌制的意思是說行政權要換到您的手上啦,所有事情就你來決定了。事實上是如此啊?沒有啊,我們如果有的話為什麼要三個委員會?\n510119\t535724\t在第二點後面那一項質詢總統違憲我們並沒有質詢總統那個是邀請總統來報告依序及時問答其實那個是問答問答而且是依序有問有答有問有答是依序問答但是到底要怎麼問答其實是要保留給朝野協商所以這是法律的不免協定沒有那大家朝野協商呢\n536724\t558192\t對總統邀請來會經過什麼樣的質詢是他來了之前才決定他該用什麼的方式呢?不是質詢嘛等一下什麼是質詢我等一下但那不是質詢那個院長我不知道說你知不知道什麼是質詢我等一下跟你討論好我們接下來看齁這個有一些那個有一些你們黨友啦因為你是大師兄我也是很尊敬你有一些黨友的言論我才聽不懂齁\n558992\t572706\t這位是前內政部黨林佑昌他說國民黨跟民眾黨立委聯合修法把自己變成法官叫你到立法院問話然後你藐視國會國民黨民眾黨多數舉手判以有罪請問一下在我們通過的法條哪一條是這樣規定\n574582\t577604\t那你要不要跟林佑昌講一下叫他不要造謠有認識嗎?\n592520\t595181\t我要跟他講,雖然政府人員也是人民,但是這個用詞稍微應該精準一點。\n614149\t615349\t好,謝謝葉委員下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員質詢\n","txt":"主席請找卓榮泰院長,謝謝來請卓院長備詢好,院長好院委員好你好,剛剛聽到前一位委員又在說國民黨不愛台灣\n我真的覺得很悲哀啦就是說有些人總是喜歡在台灣裡面找敵人把意見不同跟自己意見不同就扣帽子說不愛台灣大家都是在台灣生台灣長都是為台灣好即便是意見不同啦也不需要給人家扣帽子啦院長你同意嗎\n我非常希望台灣是這樣一個社會所以每個人對自己的言行都要負責任院長我現在跟你意見一定不一樣嘛但我不會說你不愛台灣只有我才愛台灣因為現在為止我們都一樣啊對不對所以意見可以不一樣可以討論嘛但是不要扣帽子啦我覺得這個大家一直講民主啦這才是民主的真諦我尊重你的意見跟我不一樣但是我尊重你講話的自由跟權利對吧院長不要扣帽子好嗎好院長謝謝\n那今天因為是針對覆議案來質詢我想跟院長先確認一下你的幾個覆議的理由那到底他實際上是什麼意思那因為有一些不理由其他委員已經有跟你深入討論了我針對有一些我看到比較少討論的部分來跟你就教第二點你有提到說\n有一個理由是我們現在的版本混淆雙手掌制然後質詢總統違憲對吧這第二點是你們的理由吧請問院長你覺得台灣現在的制度是雙手掌制嗎我們憲法的設計是這樣子是齁是雙手掌制那雙手掌制的特色是什麼就是民選的總統第一\n任用行政院長向國會負責。\n最大不一樣面對的國會的結構不一樣不是有一個最大不一樣你知道嗎因為你講到雙首長制我想必你對雙首長制很有研究所以我才問你這個問題你知不知道我們跟法國雙首長制最大的不一樣是什麼總理是怎麼樣怎麼選出來的總理是怎麼產生的總理選舉出來的\n法國的雙首長制實際上叫做行政權雙軌制,就是如果總統跟國會多數黨是同一個黨的時候,最高行政首長就是總統。但是只要總統跟國會最大黨不一樣的時候,就由國會最大黨來決定總理。\n所以行政權這時候又換到總理那邊去了所以他是換鬼的就是說要嘛就是總統是最高行政首長要嘛就是總理是最高行政首長跟台灣所謂的雙首長制是完全不一樣的結構那所以你知道為什麼大家講說台灣的這個制度跟法國的比啊是弱很多你知道為什麼嗎\n最主要原因是因為我們現在的雙手掌制啊形成了一種總統有權無責但是行政院長有責無權的狀況其實這個在民主體制是非常不健康的因為所謂的民主什麼叫民主民主就是責任權力相輔嘛\n就是說你這個總統有極大的權力但是你要受到相對應的監督然後人民的聲音反映給總統總統施行任何政策順應民意這個是民主的真諦可是在我們國家的制度啊行政院長已經變成了總統的執行長所以當然院長每次來接受國會的監督可是你不是實際上做決定的人這個才是我們國家不符合民主的最主要原因院長你知道嗎\n因為賴清德總統在2016年跟二林跟他之前在當台南市長的時候多次強調台灣要朝向內閣制的雙手黨制比較健康\n他自己提出來他說我們的葛奎行政院長應該要經過國會的同意這個是賴清德總統講的你可以看一下要經過立院同意為什麼因為賴清德總統他自己發現說我們的制度不對啦我們的制度不對才真正造成民主危機\n所以第一齁你的復議的理由第二點混淆雙首長制實際上你並沒有很了解我們國家到底什麼制度我們國家實際上是總統制就是總統才是最高行政首長\n如果按照您提到的我們國家是雙首長制的話那您才是最高行政首長可是你可以所以你的權利是大於總統的喔抱歉委員在憲法規定上行政院、全政院長就是最高的行政首長但是實際上決策的人不是你嘛\n所以你比總統大\n所以你在政策上面,如果總統叫你往A,你說不對,總統應該B,要聽我的,我才是最高行政首長,你敢跟總統講這樣的話嗎?我們會說明理由,據理的這個律政,但是最後決定權還在總統。所以今天,行政院該決定的事項就在行政院決定。對啦,可是過去,憲政,我不針對你個人。就像我們很多的政策也要跟立法院討論是一樣的啊。但是過去憲政的運作,很多都是總統決定嘛,像要開放美豬啊,\n其中當然有一個委員會是跟國防有關但另外兩個委員會一個是跟環境有關另外一個是跟\n衛生有關這兩個理論上來講是屬於行政院的權責可是我們並沒有在行政院下面在另外社委員會我們是在總統府下社委員會就變成一個太上皇機關 因此 各位報告健康台灣是總統選舉時候很重要的一個政見所以從這裡角度來看成立一個健康台灣的委員會\n是應該．而且是該市委接受．沒錯．所以．環境的問題未來牽扯到是整個國際戰略的問題．我同意．我同意．所以現在我們國家最高行政總黨就是總統．不是．因為他在選舉的時候會提一些政見．行政院．而這些政見必須要落實．而這些政見必須要落實．\n他必須落實所以諮詢委員會做出來結論會去影響行政院但是做出這個決策者他不需要到立法院來備詢導致於有權無責的狀況但這些都是跨黨派的社會人士他不一定會到立法院來對沒錯所以有權無責\n其實我們要討論的,我們兩個討論並沒有什麼太大的旗艦我只要告訴院長說,對沒錯,總統有政見,他要落實,要放黨派但是最後總統決策以後,要求行政院來執行所以行政院就是總統的CEO但是總統不需要到國會來接受監督副召集人在總統府的三個委員會當中副召集人多數也都是行政院的代表那為什麼要在總統委員會,那就直接行政院下面設就好了行政院有行政院成立經濟委員會\n那就跌床駕屋啦,到時候要聽誰的,要聽誰的,要聽總統的還聽行政院長的。所以你看,你講一句話就會產生三個問題,這就是制度問題嘛。所以我們國家不是雙手掌制,我們國家就是總統制。嚴格講也是偏向總統制的雙手掌制。雙手掌制的意思是說行政權要換到您的手上啦,所有事情就你來決定了。事實上是如此啊?沒有啊,我們如果有的話為什麼要三個委員會?\n在第二點後面那一項質詢總統違憲我們並沒有質詢總統那個是邀請總統來報告依序及時問答其實那個是問答問答而且是依序有問有答有問有答是依序問答但是到底要怎麼問答其實是要保留給朝野協商所以這是法律的不免協定沒有那大家朝野協商呢\n對總統邀請來會經過什麼樣的質詢是他來了之前才決定他該用什麼的方式呢?不是質詢嘛等一下什麼是質詢我等一下但那不是質詢那個院長我不知道說你知不知道什麼是質詢我等一下跟你討論好我們接下來看齁這個有一些那個有一些你們黨友啦因為你是大師兄我也是很尊敬你有一些黨友的言論我才聽不懂齁\n這位是前內政部黨林佑昌他說國民黨跟民眾黨立委聯合修法把自己變成法官叫你到立法院問話然後你藐視國會國民黨民眾黨多數舉手判以有罪請問一下在我們通過的法條哪一條是這樣規定\n那你要不要跟林佑昌講一下叫他不要造謠有認識嗎?\n我要跟他講,雖然政府人員也是人民,但是這個用詞稍微應該精準一點。\n好,謝謝葉委員下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.347 --> 00:12.811\n主席請找卓榮泰院長,謝謝來請卓院長備詢好,院長好院委員好你好,剛剛聽到前一位委員又在說國民黨不愛台灣\n\n00:27.679 --> 00:44.362\n我真的覺得很悲哀啦就是說有些人總是喜歡在台灣裡面找敵人把意見不同跟自己意見不同就扣帽子說不愛台灣大家都是在台灣生台灣長都是為台灣好即便是意見不同啦也不需要給人家扣帽子啦院長你同意嗎\n\n00:45.302 --> 01:13.216\n我非常希望台灣是這樣一個社會所以每個人對自己的言行都要負責任院長我現在跟你意見一定不一樣嘛但我不會說你不愛台灣只有我才愛台灣因為現在為止我們都一樣啊對不對所以意見可以不一樣可以討論嘛但是不要扣帽子啦我覺得這個大家一直講民主啦這才是民主的真諦我尊重你的意見跟我不一樣但是我尊重你講話的自由跟權利對吧院長不要扣帽子好嗎好院長謝謝\n\n01:14.477 --> 01:32.627\n那今天因為是針對覆議案來質詢我想跟院長先確認一下你的幾個覆議的理由那到底他實際上是什麼意思那因為有一些不理由其他委員已經有跟你深入討論了我針對有一些我看到比較少討論的部分來跟你就教第二點你有提到說\n\n01:33.968 --> 01:51.523\n有一個理由是我們現在的版本混淆雙手掌制然後質詢總統違憲對吧這第二點是你們的理由吧請問院長你覺得台灣現在的制度是雙手掌制嗎我們憲法的設計是這樣子是齁是雙手掌制那雙手掌制的特色是什麼就是民選的總統第一\n\n01:54.699 --> 01:56.461\n任用行政院長向國會負責。\n\n02:10.836 --> 02:27.805\n最大不一樣面對的國會的結構不一樣不是有一個最大不一樣你知道嗎因為你講到雙首長制我想必你對雙首長制很有研究所以我才問你這個問題你知不知道我們跟法國雙首長制最大的不一樣是什麼總理是怎麼樣怎麼選出來的總理是怎麼產生的總理選舉出來的\n\n02:39.035 --> 02:53.450\n法國的雙首長制實際上叫做行政權雙軌制,就是如果總統跟國會多數黨是同一個黨的時候,最高行政首長就是總統。但是只要總統跟國會最大黨不一樣的時候,就由國會最大黨來決定總理。\n\n02:58.815 --> 03:21.594\n所以行政權這時候又換到總理那邊去了所以他是換鬼的就是說要嘛就是總統是最高行政首長要嘛就是總理是最高行政首長跟台灣所謂的雙首長制是完全不一樣的結構那所以你知道為什麼大家講說台灣的這個制度跟法國的比啊是弱很多你知道為什麼嗎\n\n03:22.881 --> 03:41.297\n最主要原因是因為我們現在的雙手掌制啊形成了一種總統有權無責但是行政院長有責無權的狀況其實這個在民主體制是非常不健康的因為所謂的民主什麼叫民主民主就是責任權力相輔嘛\n\n03:41.917 --> 04:10.857\n就是說你這個總統有極大的權力但是你要受到相對應的監督然後人民的聲音反映給總統總統施行任何政策順應民意這個是民主的真諦可是在我們國家的制度啊行政院長已經變成了總統的執行長所以當然院長每次來接受國會的監督可是你不是實際上做決定的人這個才是我們國家不符合民主的最主要原因院長你知道嗎\n\n04:11.698 --> 04:14.901\n因為賴清德總統在2016年跟二林跟他之前在當台南市長的時候多次強調台灣要朝向內閣制的雙手黨制比較健康\n\n04:32.742 --> 04:51.421\n他自己提出來他說我們的葛奎行政院長應該要經過國會的同意這個是賴清德總統講的你可以看一下要經過立院同意為什麼因為賴清德總統他自己發現說我們的制度不對啦我們的制度不對才真正造成民主危機\n\n04:52.162 --> 04:56.564\n所以第一齁你的復議的理由第二點混淆雙首長制實際上你並沒有很了解我們國家到底什麼制度我們國家實際上是總統制就是總統才是最高行政首長\n\n05:11.852 --> 05:27.525\n如果按照您提到的我們國家是雙首長制的話那您才是最高行政首長可是你可以所以你的權利是大於總統的喔抱歉委員在憲法規定上行政院、全政院長就是最高的行政首長但是實際上決策的人不是你嘛\n\n05:28.166 --> 05:28.406\n所以你比總統大\n\n05:47.139 --> 06:15.550\n所以你在政策上面,如果總統叫你往A,你說不對,總統應該B,要聽我的,我才是最高行政首長,你敢跟總統講這樣的話嗎?我們會說明理由,據理的這個律政,但是最後決定權還在總統。所以今天,行政院該決定的事項就在行政院決定。對啦,可是過去,憲政,我不針對你個人。就像我們很多的政策也要跟立法院討論是一樣的啊。但是過去憲政的運作,很多都是總統決定嘛,像要開放美豬啊,\n\n06:16.290 --> 06:18.132\n其中當然有一個委員會是跟國防有關但另外兩個委員會一個是跟環境有關另外一個是跟\n\n06:39.092 --> 06:58.102\n衛生有關這兩個理論上來講是屬於行政院的權責可是我們並沒有在行政院下面在另外社委員會我們是在總統府下社委員會就變成一個太上皇機關因此各位報告健康台灣是總統選舉時候很重要的一個政見所以從這裡角度來看成立一個健康台灣的委員會\n\n06:59.022 --> 07:12.392\n是應該．而且是該市委接受．沒錯．所以．環境的問題未來牽扯到是整個國際戰略的問題．我同意．我同意．所以現在我們國家最高行政總黨就是總統．不是．因為他在選舉的時候會提一些政見．行政院．而這些政見必須要落實．而這些政見必須要落實．\n\n07:15.954 --> 07:33.002\n他必須落實所以諮詢委員會做出來結論會去影響行政院但是做出這個決策者他不需要到立法院來備詢導致於有權無責的狀況但這些都是跨黨派的社會人士他不一定會到立法院來對沒錯所以有權無責\n\n07:34.122 --> 08:01.280\n其實我們要討論的,我們兩個討論並沒有什麼太大的旗艦我只要告訴院長說,對沒錯,總統有政見,他要落實,要放黨派但是最後總統決策以後,要求行政院來執行所以行政院就是總統的CEO但是總統不需要到國會來接受監督副召集人在總統府的三個委員會當中副召集人多數也都是行政院的代表那為什麼要在總統委員會,那就直接行政院下面設就好了行政院有行政院成立經濟委員會\n\n08:02.361 --> 08:26.818\n那就跌床駕屋啦,到時候要聽誰的,要聽誰的,要聽總統的還聽行政院長的。所以你看,你講一句話就會產生三個問題,這就是制度問題嘛。所以我們國家不是雙手掌制,我們國家就是總統制。嚴格講也是偏向總統制的雙手掌制。雙手掌制的意思是說行政權要換到您的手上啦,所有事情就你來決定了。事實上是如此啊?沒有啊,我們如果有的話為什麼要三個委員會?\n\n08:30.119 --> 08:55.724\n在第二點後面那一項質詢總統違憲我們並沒有質詢總統那個是邀請總統來報告依序及時問答其實那個是問答問答而且是依序有問有答有問有答是依序問答但是到底要怎麼問答其實是要保留給朝野協商所以這是法律的不免協定沒有那大家朝野協商呢\n\n08:56.724 --> 09:18.192\n對總統邀請來會經過什麼樣的質詢是他來了之前才決定他該用什麼的方式呢?不是質詢嘛等一下什麼是質詢我等一下但那不是質詢那個院長我不知道說你知不知道什麼是質詢我等一下跟你討論好我們接下來看齁這個有一些那個有一些你們黨友啦因為你是大師兄我也是很尊敬你有一些黨友的言論我才聽不懂齁\n\n09:18.992 --> 09:32.706\n這位是前內政部黨林佑昌他說國民黨跟民眾黨立委聯合修法把自己變成法官叫你到立法院問話然後你藐視國會國民黨民眾黨多數舉手判以有罪請問一下在我們通過的法條哪一條是這樣規定\n\n09:34.582 --> 09:37.604\n那你要不要跟林佑昌講一下叫他不要造謠有認識嗎?\n\n09:52.520 --> 09:55.181\n我要跟他講,雖然政府人員也是人民,但是這個用詞稍微應該精準一點。\n\n10:14.149 --> 10:15.349\n好,謝謝葉委員下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.347,"end":12.811,"text":"主席請找卓榮泰院長,謝謝來請卓院長備詢好,院長好院委員好你好,剛剛聽到前一位委員又在說國民黨不愛台灣"},{"start":27.679,"end":44.362,"text":"我真的覺得很悲哀啦就是說有些人總是喜歡在台灣裡面找敵人把意見不同跟自己意見不同就扣帽子說不愛台灣大家都是在台灣生台灣長都是為台灣好即便是意見不同啦也不需要給人家扣帽子啦院長你同意嗎"},{"start":45.302,"end":73.216,"text":"我非常希望台灣是這樣一個社會所以每個人對自己的言行都要負責任院長我現在跟你意見一定不一樣嘛但我不會說你不愛台灣只有我才愛台灣因為現在為止我們都一樣啊對不對所以意見可以不一樣可以討論嘛但是不要扣帽子啦我覺得這個大家一直講民主啦這才是民主的真諦我尊重你的意見跟我不一樣但是我尊重你講話的自由跟權利對吧院長不要扣帽子好嗎好院長謝謝"},{"start":74.477,"end":92.627,"text":"那今天因為是針對覆議案來質詢我想跟院長先確認一下你的幾個覆議的理由那到底他實際上是什麼意思那因為有一些不理由其他委員已經有跟你深入討論了我針對有一些我看到比較少討論的部分來跟你就教第二點你有提到說"},{"start":93.968,"end":111.523,"text":"有一個理由是我們現在的版本混淆雙手掌制然後質詢總統違憲對吧這第二點是你們的理由吧請問院長你覺得台灣現在的制度是雙手掌制嗎我們憲法的設計是這樣子是齁是雙手掌制那雙手掌制的特色是什麼就是民選的總統第一"},{"start":114.699,"end":116.461,"text":"任用行政院長向國會負責。"},{"start":130.836,"end":147.805,"text":"最大不一樣面對的國會的結構不一樣不是有一個最大不一樣你知道嗎因為你講到雙首長制我想必你對雙首長制很有研究所以我才問你這個問題你知不知道我們跟法國雙首長制最大的不一樣是什麼總理是怎麼樣怎麼選出來的總理是怎麼產生的總理選舉出來的"},{"start":159.035,"end":173.45,"text":"法國的雙首長制實際上叫做行政權雙軌制,就是如果總統跟國會多數黨是同一個黨的時候,最高行政首長就是總統。但是只要總統跟國會最大黨不一樣的時候,就由國會最大黨來決定總理。"},{"start":178.815,"end":201.594,"text":"所以行政權這時候又換到總理那邊去了所以他是換鬼的就是說要嘛就是總統是最高行政首長要嘛就是總理是最高行政首長跟台灣所謂的雙首長制是完全不一樣的結構那所以你知道為什麼大家講說台灣的這個制度跟法國的比啊是弱很多你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":202.881,"end":221.297,"text":"最主要原因是因為我們現在的雙手掌制啊形成了一種總統有權無責但是行政院長有責無權的狀況其實這個在民主體制是非常不健康的因為所謂的民主什麼叫民主民主就是責任權力相輔嘛"},{"start":221.917,"end":250.857,"text":"就是說你這個總統有極大的權力但是你要受到相對應的監督然後人民的聲音反映給總統總統施行任何政策順應民意這個是民主的真諦可是在我們國家的制度啊行政院長已經變成了總統的執行長所以當然院長每次來接受國會的監督可是你不是實際上做決定的人這個才是我們國家不符合民主的最主要原因院長你知道嗎"},{"start":251.698,"end":254.901,"text":"因為賴清德總統在2016年跟二林跟他之前在當台南市長的時候多次強調台灣要朝向內閣制的雙手黨制比較健康"},{"start":272.742,"end":291.421,"text":"他自己提出來他說我們的葛奎行政院長應該要經過國會的同意這個是賴清德總統講的你可以看一下要經過立院同意為什麼因為賴清德總統他自己發現說我們的制度不對啦我們的制度不對才真正造成民主危機"},{"start":292.162,"end":296.564,"text":"所以第一齁你的復議的理由第二點混淆雙首長制實際上你並沒有很了解我們國家到底什麼制度我們國家實際上是總統制就是總統才是最高行政首長"},{"start":311.852,"end":327.525,"text":"如果按照您提到的我們國家是雙首長制的話那您才是最高行政首長可是你可以所以你的權利是大於總統的喔抱歉委員在憲法規定上行政院、全政院長就是最高的行政首長但是實際上決策的人不是你嘛"},{"start":328.166,"end":328.406,"text":"所以你比總統大"},{"start":347.139,"end":375.55,"text":"所以你在政策上面,如果總統叫你往A,你說不對,總統應該B,要聽我的,我才是最高行政首長,你敢跟總統講這樣的話嗎?我們會說明理由,據理的這個律政,但是最後決定權還在總統。所以今天,行政院該決定的事項就在行政院決定。對啦,可是過去,憲政,我不針對你個人。就像我們很多的政策也要跟立法院討論是一樣的啊。但是過去憲政的運作,很多都是總統決定嘛,像要開放美豬啊,"},{"start":376.29,"end":378.132,"text":"其中當然有一個委員會是跟國防有關但另外兩個委員會一個是跟環境有關另外一個是跟"},{"start":399.092,"end":418.102,"text":"衛生有關這兩個理論上來講是屬於行政院的權責可是我們並沒有在行政院下面在另外社委員會我們是在總統府下社委員會就變成一個太上皇機關 因此 各位報告健康台灣是總統選舉時候很重要的一個政見所以從這裡角度來看成立一個健康台灣的委員會"},{"start":419.022,"end":432.392,"text":"是應該．而且是該市委接受．沒錯．所以．環境的問題未來牽扯到是整個國際戰略的問題．我同意．我同意．所以現在我們國家最高行政總黨就是總統．不是．因為他在選舉的時候會提一些政見．行政院．而這些政見必須要落實．而這些政見必須要落實．"},{"start":435.954,"end":453.002,"text":"他必須落實所以諮詢委員會做出來結論會去影響行政院但是做出這個決策者他不需要到立法院來備詢導致於有權無責的狀況但這些都是跨黨派的社會人士他不一定會到立法院來對沒錯所以有權無責"},{"start":454.122,"end":481.28,"text":"其實我們要討論的,我們兩個討論並沒有什麼太大的旗艦我只要告訴院長說,對沒錯,總統有政見,他要落實,要放黨派但是最後總統決策以後,要求行政院來執行所以行政院就是總統的CEO但是總統不需要到國會來接受監督副召集人在總統府的三個委員會當中副召集人多數也都是行政院的代表那為什麼要在總統委員會,那就直接行政院下面設就好了行政院有行政院成立經濟委員會"},{"start":482.361,"end":506.818,"text":"那就跌床駕屋啦,到時候要聽誰的,要聽誰的,要聽總統的還聽行政院長的。所以你看,你講一句話就會產生三個問題,這就是制度問題嘛。所以我們國家不是雙手掌制,我們國家就是總統制。嚴格講也是偏向總統制的雙手掌制。雙手掌制的意思是說行政權要換到您的手上啦,所有事情就你來決定了。事實上是如此啊?沒有啊,我們如果有的話為什麼要三個委員會?"},{"start":510.119,"end":535.724,"text":"在第二點後面那一項質詢總統違憲我們並沒有質詢總統那個是邀請總統來報告依序及時問答其實那個是問答問答而且是依序有問有答有問有答是依序問答但是到底要怎麼問答其實是要保留給朝野協商所以這是法律的不免協定沒有那大家朝野協商呢"},{"start":536.724,"end":558.192,"text":"對總統邀請來會經過什麼樣的質詢是他來了之前才決定他該用什麼的方式呢?不是質詢嘛等一下什麼是質詢我等一下但那不是質詢那個院長我不知道說你知不知道什麼是質詢我等一下跟你討論好我們接下來看齁這個有一些那個有一些你們黨友啦因為你是大師兄我也是很尊敬你有一些黨友的言論我才聽不懂齁"},{"start":558.992,"end":572.706,"text":"這位是前內政部黨林佑昌他說國民黨跟民眾黨立委聯合修法把自己變成法官叫你到立法院問話然後你藐視國會國民黨民眾黨多數舉手判以有罪請問一下在我們通過的法條哪一條是這樣規定"},{"start":574.582,"end":577.604,"text":"那你要不要跟林佑昌講一下叫他不要造謠有認識嗎?"},{"start":592.52,"end":595.181,"text":"我要跟他講,雖然政府人員也是人民,但是這個用詞稍微應該精準一點。"},{"start":614.149,"end":615.349,"text":"好,謝謝葉委員下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員質詢"}]}}}}