{"id":154122,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154122","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ceaf6abec8b4a6dbfa0650ceaeebc3c9dd1cafa7fa6f271c3732e15d6f5e978707ab4d4785160245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"11:11:20 - 11:22:23","影片長度":"00:11:03","會議時間":"2024-06-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十一條之一條文等覆議案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-20","start_time":"2024-06-20T11:11:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-20T11:22:23+08:00","duration":663,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議","id":"全院委員會-11-1-1","type":"全院委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":657,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（11時11分）謝謝主席，請我們卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：院長好。上次跟你提到有關於我們行政內閣的一些問題，今天我們就來做一個就法論法的工作，我們整理了一下昨天到今天的發言，你昨天特別提到了幾個疑慮，包括調查權、聽證權你們認為違反權力分立的原則；還有，你認為我們現在修的職權行使法，跟釋字第585號、釋字第729號的意旨不合；還有，無差別的調查民眾，範圍太廣；而且你認為這樣會因而包山包海，這就是院長你昨天認為的，沒錯吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員……"],["柯委員志恩：到目前為止，你的認知還是如此？經過這麼多次的攻防，你還是這麼認為嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，是的。"],["柯委員志恩：你還是這麼認為喔！那我們就一一來看，我還是要提醒，當然你今天早上也提過，釋字第585號是一個比較大的公約數，但是我也要提醒即將上來的法務部部長，我還是要強調，釋字第585號所指的，還是一個必要之輔助性權力，你不要每次都告訴我這叫做補充權力，這是必要性的權力，這是非常重要的，好不好？部長，這點要先澄清，而且我們不斷地告訴大家，對於釋字第325號、第585號、第729號的解釋內容，我們有清楚的規範，立法委員行使調查權，應該尊重其他受憲法保障這樣獨立行使的權責，所以不是包山包海，這是非常清楚的。所以在我們三讀通過的第四十六條之二裡面，就有規範釋字第585號不得行使調查權的狀況，不是嗎？所以已經有規範了，為什麼還要告訴我們這是包山包海呢？沒有啊！第四十六條之二寫得非常的清楚，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，事實上，行使法第四十五條……"],["柯委員志恩：我現在跟你說第四十六條之二，是不是已經做了一些規範？是不是已經規範了，所以並沒有包山包海，我只問你有沒有包山包海？"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是那個規範，事實上第四十七條就是突破到第四十六條之二……"],["柯委員志恩：我們等一下可以討論第四十五條跟第四十七條，但是我只想請問，有沒有包山包海？所有在外面講的謠言都說這叫包山包海，我告訴你，第四十六之二就已經有限制了哪些東西是我們必須要尊重的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，第四十六條之二是有某些事不可以調查，但是第四十七條已經突破到第四十六條之二了。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我們就來看第四十七條涉及的層面，我先詢問一下，昨天還有立法委員在這邊問你說我們都不談釋字第325號，你還附和說：對，然後還講了一句：只有調閱權。我們只有調閱權嗎？我還是要提醒一下，通常來說，釋字第325號是立法權調閱的第一步，釋字第325號是陳水扁跟趙少康那時候一致連署的，但他們認為還是不夠，所以才會有釋字第585號，對於這個部分做了更明確的規範；還有所謂的釋字第729號，說實在的，我們柯總召曾經使用過釋字第729號，但他是為了要調閱偵查中的卷宗，結果被大法官打臉，認為他是毀憲亂政，柯總召就是一個最好的例子，釋字第729號就已經很明確規定。所以我告訴各位，學法律的人都知道，看大法官的解釋要從釋字325、釋字585、釋字633、釋字729一路看過來，可是你們現在只追究過去的釋字325，你們民進黨是從後面看到前面，就這點來說很難讓人接受。即使是民進黨立委站在這邊，學法的人……"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是行使法已經完全擴充、已經超乎釋字585號、325號解釋的解釋意旨了。"],["柯委員志恩：我們就繼續來看有沒有超過這個意旨，我現在只針對一些被扭曲的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：從第四十五條那部分的規定就可以看出超過了。"],["柯委員志恩：部長，我會給你時間解釋。我們先來看被扭曲的層面，我一直不能接受……院長，你真的是一個很溫和的人，可是當你看到這些人在外面講了一些讓人民覺得很恐慌的事情時，我覺得你有必要私下跟他們說一下。舉例來說，你們說人民可以無限制的被罰款罰到破產為止，各位，釋字585就已經特別提到，針對違反協助調查義務者，在科處罰鍰、罰金範圍內，施以合理強制手段，我們不過是把二十年前大法官的解釋法制化。還有，再來看一下大家最關切的……"],["卓院長榮泰：問題是連續處罰……"],["柯委員志恩：沒關係，院長，讓我把這個例子講完好不好？還有，大家會把所謂的社會上有關係人員無限制放大，所以經濟部長上來說科技業怕得要死。如果國防部長也來說部隊也怕得要死，就因為所謂的社會上有關係人員可以是任何人，搞不好連農業部長也上來說老農也很恐懼，百工百業都在恐懼，是這樣子嗎？所謂的「社會上有關係人員」是規定在憲法第六十七條，憲法第六十七條提到各委員會可以邀請政府人員，還有社會上有關係的人員到會備詢。難道憲法講到「社會上有關係人員」是違憲嗎？為什麼要把社會有關係人員無限擴充到大媽也可以、早餐店老闆娘也可以、誰都可以？請問憲法第六十七條要怎麼解釋呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實最可怕的就是對這些有協助調查義務的部隊、團體或法人或社會上有關係人員強制他配合，否則罰款罰到他改正為止……"],["柯委員志恩：有嗎？會這樣子發生嗎？我現在……"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且這個救濟的機會……"],["柯委員志恩：我只請問你「社會上有關係人員」違憲嗎？憲法第六十七條就有社會上有關係人員擺在這個地方，你們卻把社會上有關係人員無限擴充到百工百業都會如此，我只問你這個法律解釋而已！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是不是合乎大法官釋字585號、釋字325號跟釋字633號的解釋意旨？"],["柯委員志恩：那就來看一下！你不斷強調職權行使法第四十七條，我只請問，原本第四十七條……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對第四十七條違背的話，還有第四十八條的……"],["柯委員志恩：你剛剛講第四十六條之二，然後又告訴我第四十七條；我講第四十七條，你又講第四十八條？我們可不可以好好focus在同一個條文上？你只告訴我目前的第四十七條跟原本職權行使法第四十七條差別在哪裡？差別在哪裡？原本的法條跟新修的法條差別在哪裡？只有增訂對象，只有增訂對象，其他有關提供什麼複本等等之類的，就在原本的法條當中……"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有……"],["柯委員志恩：就在原本的法條當中，要不要比對一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有，本來法條只有相關文件，現在已經擴及到什麼資料、檔案等等！"],["柯委員志恩：對，還有對象，我幫你補充！但是你剛剛所提到的複本，還有其他等等之類的，原本的法條就有了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：最可怕的是為什麼要把民眾給納進來？"],["柯委員志恩：所謂民眾也不是隨便民眾都可以，這是我剛剛不斷提醒你的！你把民眾無限上綱，但其實所謂民眾還是有限制存在，而且在憲法層面當中，就有社會關係人的字眼出現，你對憲法解釋是一種，但對於職權行使法中的社會關係人又是另外一種解釋而且你對憲法第六十七條的解釋……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為社會關係人是一種不確定的觀念，如何去界定什麼叫有關係？"],["柯委員志恩：欸！部長，我現在在問你，為何社會關係人會被你無限、擴大成這樣的解釋？我們再來看看，對於憲法第六十七條，我個人覺得包括鄭部長……我不用再敘述他所講的任何一句話，但他其實做了很清楚的說明，憲法第六十七條的保障規定中，有不符合立法院各委員會的組織法都應該修掉，更不要說很多人也特別提到，像李俊俋，目前為止我覺得他講的也有道理，他認為體制混亂無法釐清，我們應該透過修憲改變，至少要把國會的調查權還有實施調查權會用到的聽證制度建立起來，他現在已經是監察院的秘書長，他已絕口不談廢監察院這件事，但我贊成他認為如果把調查權拿掉，就會讓立法院變成沒有牙的老鼠，這都是過去斑斑可考。所以院長，我真的要強調，民進黨過去提出非常多，當然現在你們為了要維護你們現在的說法，就不斷說因為過去講的不是非常完備，所以沒有出委員會，但是還是一句話，這些人對你來說，你都認識，他們即使沒有功勞也有苦勞吧？院長，也有吧？而且包括陳前總統，陳前總統的腦袋瓜也算清楚，他在1993年的時候一起爭取，即使到今年，他也會告訴我們說「再爭取」，對不對？這也是前總統所提到的。","最後，我還是可以跟院長說一句話，就誠如我上次在質詢你的時候，我對於你的部分，是希望你能夠扮演一個調和鼎鼐的角色，但是我有時候也為你抱屈，我也認為立委沒那麼大，我們都一樣，跟人民一樣大，但是院長，我今天非常的火大，你知道為什麼嗎？請問你的行政院推的法案到底是誰決定？上次我們特別提到的學生輔導法，明明所有的家長、輔導人員都希望能夠趕快通過，行政院也非常感謝，我非常感謝鄭麗君副院長、史哲政委，還有包括你，可能的話就應該讓它通過，可是卻被卡在我們立法院的柯總召身上，他認為這個時候不應該把它提出來，我覺得你在討論誰比較擴權的時候，你是不是應該針對這一點，好好跟柯總召說，沒有藍綠關係，跟教育有關係的，是不是可以早一點把它送過來給我？我覺得這才是你應該做的，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你剛才說的那些同仁，我都很認識，我都很熟，但是你說的條文，我們也要往下看，釋字585號不能都看上半段，不看下半段……"],["柯委員志恩：我也有看啊，我也有看啊，我也有看啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：立法院調查權所得調查之對象或事項，並非毫無限制！必須往下看，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：我就說有限制，在第四十六條之二有限制，好不好！"],["卓院長榮泰：條文也不能前看、後看，中間那一條不看，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：我也是全部都看了啊，連第四十七條也幫你看到了啊！都有看到，好不好，院長！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯委員。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-1-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳昭姿","王定宇","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","賴惠員","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林德福","黃捷","王育敏","郭國文","柯志恩","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","黃健豪","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","王世堅","吳宗憲","陳俊宇","謝衣鳯","沈伯洋","翁曉玲"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-06-20"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00007","1136001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十\n一條之一條文等覆議案","agenda_id":"1136001_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"154122","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","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{\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 354.278, \"end\": 354.458, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 354.458, \"end\": 354.959, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 354.959, \"end\": 355.099, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 355.099, \"end\": 355.279, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 355.279, \"end\": 355.399, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 355.399, \"end\": 355.419, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 366.425, \"end\": 368.586, \"text\": \"這部分跟那個5號5號解釋跟325號解釋以及63號解釋是不是有合乎到那個大法官解釋的意旨?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 366.425, \"end\": 366.545, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 366.545, \"end\": 366.725, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 366.725, \"end\": 366.745, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 366.745, \"end\": 366.905, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 366.905, \"end\": 366.925, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 366.925, \"end\": 366.945, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 366.945, \"end\": 367.085, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 367.085, \"end\": 367.205, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 367.205, \"end\": 367.325, \"score\": 0.604}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 367.325, \"end\": 367.406, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 367.406, \"end\": 367.446, \"score\": 0.087}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 367.446, \"end\": 367.466, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 367.466, \"end\": 367.486, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 367.486, 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0.999}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 660.533, \"end\": 660.774, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 660.774, \"end\": 660.794, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,428 --> 00:00:06,331\n好,謝謝主席,我們下次請我們卓院長卓院長請備詢柯委員好院長好,上次才跟你提到有關於我們一些行政內閣的一些的問題今天我們就針對舊法來做一個論法的一個工作我們整理一下,我們從昨天到今天你昨天所特別提到的幾個疑慮\n\n2\n00:00:28,502 --> 00:00:52,905\n當然是調查權聽證權你們認為是違反權利分立的原則還有你認為我們現在修的職權行使法跟這個誓字585誓字729的意旨不合還有沒有無差別的調查民眾範圍太廣而且你認為這樣會讓我們有包山包海這都是院長你昨天認為的嗎沒錯吧到目前為止你的認知還是如此經過這麼多次的一個攻防你還是這麼認為嗎\n\n3\n00:00:55,647 --> 00:01:05,230\n你還是這麼認為,那我們就一一來去看,我還是要提醒,當然你今天早上也提過的這個585號解釋是一個比較大的公約數,但是我這邊也要提醒即將要上來的我們法務部的部長,我還是要強調585所指的還是一個必要的\n\n4\n00:01:16,755 --> 00:01:19,176\n立法委員（行使調查權應該尊重其他受憲法保障的這樣子的獨立行使的權責所以\n\n5\n00:01:42,585 --> 00:01:48,891\n所以已經有規範的為什麼告訴我們這叫包山包海呢?沒有啊!46支人橋鈴的非常的清楚啊!寫的非常的清楚不是嗎?\n\n6\n00:02:12,679 --> 00:02:19,785\n我先跟你說46之二是不是已經有做了一些的規範?是不是已經規範了?所以並沒有,我只是問你有沒有包山包海?\n\n7\n00:02:24,208 --> 00:02:26,949\n對,但是對四條之二他是有某些事不可以調查但是47條已經突破到46條之二了\n\n8\n00:02:45,071 --> 00:02:58,263\n有關於那個層面我們可以來看我先請問一下昨天還有立法委員在這邊問你的時候說我們都不談325你還附若說對325然後呢還講了一句只有調閱權\n\n9\n00:03:00,305 --> 00:03:00,545\n李慧琼議員\n\n10\n00:03:30,305 --> 00:03:30,325\n毀憲亂政\n\n11\n00:03:46,488 --> 00:03:48,470\n他已經完全已經擴充了已經超乎585號解釋35號解釋的一些的解釋的意識了\n\n12\n00:04:05,697 --> 00:04:33,620\n然後我們就繼續來看嘛有沒有超過這個意旨嘛我現在只針對一些被扭曲的部長我們給你時間解釋我們先來看看被扭曲的層面我一直不能夠接受院長你真的是一個很溫和的人可是你看到你們這些的人在外面講了一些讓人民覺得很恐慌的事情我覺得你有必要的時候應該私下跟他們說一下舉例來說你說我們可以人民可以無限制的被罰款罰到他破產為止\n\n13\n00:04:34,821 --> 00:04:54,875\n各位這個在我們585裡面就已經有特別提到了你是有辦法來對人民做一些對於一些違反協助調查義務者在科罰傳範的範圍之內你可以給予科罰的這個罰金的部分我們不會把20年前大法官所解釋的把它法治化\n\n14\n00:04:55,715 --> 00:05:20,199\n還有呢你再來看一下大家最關切的沒關係院長讓我再把這個例子講完好不好還有一個我們就特別提到大家就會把這個所謂的人民的這個社會上的關心人員無限制的放大經濟部長上來講說科技業趕快死耶如果說國防部長你跟我說部隊長趕快死耶因為這個所謂的社會關心人員可以是任何的人搞不好一個農業部長上來聽說我們老農業也很恐懼\n\n15\n00:05:23,180 --> 00:05:40,490\n百公百業都在恐懼是這樣子嗎社會關係人員就已經出現在我們目前的憲法現在我們目前的憲法67條裡面也就有提到了各種委員會可以邀請政府人員還有社會上有關係的人員到會來被選難道憲法講到社會有關係的人是違憲嗎為什麼要把這樣的社會關係人員無限擴充到\n\n16\n00:05:50,336 --> 00:05:55,419\n大媽也可以早餐廳的老闆娘娘可以誰都可以那67條怎麼來解釋呢?\n\n17\n00:06:06,425 --> 00:06:08,586\n這部分跟那個5號5號解釋跟325號解釋以及63號解釋是不是有合乎到那個大法官解釋的意旨?\n\n18\n00:06:33,059 --> 00:06:54,322\n那就來看一下嘛,你特別不斷的強調什麼四十七條,我只請問,原本的四十七條對四十七條為配的話有四十八條的大寫文。來啦,不要講,你剛剛從四十六二然後告訴我四十七條,我講四十七條你就講到四十八條,我們可不可以好好focus在同一個條文上面,你只告訴我,目前的四十七條跟我們職權行使法四十七條差別在哪裡?\n\n19\n00:06:55,824 --> 00:07:15,900\n原本的法條跟新修的法條差別在哪裡?只有增訂對象,其他有關於提供了什麼副本等等之類,就在原本的法條當中,原本的法條當中,你要不要把它比對一下?有,這個本來是法條是只有相關文件,現在已經擴及到什麼資料檔案等等。\n\n20\n00:07:16,861 --> 00:07:44,088\n還有我對一下我幫你多補充但是你剛所提到的副本還有等等之類的原本的法條就有了那最可怕的為什麼要把民眾給這個民眾裡面這個民眾也不是隨便的民眾都有這是我剛鋪單指稱你的你是要把所謂的民就是無限上綱這些民眾還是有他的限制存在而且在憲法的這個層面當中就有社會關係人的這樣的字眼出現所以不要憲法解釋的一部分\n\n21\n00:07:44,668 --> 00:07:48,471\n部長,我現在在問你這些話裡面,社會關係人你被你無限這樣的酷刑到這樣的一個解釋,然後我們再來看,\n\n22\n00:08:00,999 --> 00:08:20,542\n所以我們對於這個憲法67條我個人覺得包括我們的政院長我不用再敘述他所講的任何一句話他其實就有做的很清楚的一個說明67條保障的規定當中有不符合立法院各委員員的組織法都應該修掉那更不要說很多人也特別提到了像是李俊逸\n\n23\n00:08:21,482 --> 00:08:44,994\n這是目前為止。我覺得他講的也有道理啊。你看,體制荒謬道理,我們應該把透過休閒改變的時候,我們至少要把國會的調查權,還有實施調查權會用到的聽證制度,把它建立起來。他現在已經是監察院的秘書長,他已經在絕口不談廢監察院這件事情。但是我贊成他認為,如果你把調查權拿掉的話,就會讓立法院變成沒有牙的老鼠。\n\n24\n00:08:49,416 --> 00:09:07,947\n這都是過去斑斑可考所以院長我真的是要強調啊真的民進黨過去提出非常多現在你們當然為了要維護你們現在的說法就不但告訴他因為他們過去講的不是非常的完備然後呢所以說呢沒有初委員會但是呢還是一句話這些人\n\n25\n00:09:28,479 --> 00:09:28,579\n主席\n\n26\n00:09:45,285 --> 00:10:04,175\n立委沒那麼大,我們都一樣跟人民一樣大,但是院長我今天非常的火大,你知道為什麼嗎?請問你的行政院要推的法案到底是誰決定?上次我們特別提到的學生輔導法,明明就是讓所有的家長、讓所有的輔導人員都希望你都趕快通過,\n\n27\n00:10:04,875 --> 00:10:05,636\n主席主席主席\n\n28\n00:10:33,973 --> 00:10:41,499\n好,謝謝柯委員\n\n29\n00:10:57,605 --> 00:11:00,794\n好,下一位我們請李昆成委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1428\t6331\t好,謝謝主席,我們下次請我們卓院長卓院長請備詢柯委員好院長好,上次才跟你提到有關於我們一些行政內閣的一些的問題今天我們就針對舊法來做一個論法的一個工作我們整理一下,我們從昨天到今天你昨天所特別提到的幾個疑慮\n28502\t52905\t當然是調查權聽證權你們認為是違反權利分立的原則還有你認為我們現在修的職權行使法跟這個誓字585誓字729的意旨不合還有沒有無差別的調查民眾範圍太廣而且你認為這樣會讓我們有包山包海這都是院長你昨天認為的嗎沒錯吧到目前為止你的認知還是如此經過這麼多次的一個攻防你還是這麼認為嗎\n55647\t65230\t你還是這麼認為,那我們就一一來去看,我還是要提醒,當然你今天早上也提過的這個585號解釋是一個比較大的公約數,但是我這邊也要提醒即將要上來的我們法務部的部長,我還是要強調585所指的還是一個必要的\n76755\t79176\t立法委員（行使調查權應該尊重其他受憲法保障的這樣子的獨立行使的權責所以\n102585\t108891\t所以已經有規範的為什麼告訴我們這叫包山包海呢?沒有啊!46支人橋鈴的非常的清楚啊!寫的非常的清楚不是嗎?\n132679\t139785\t我先跟你說46之二是不是已經有做了一些的規範?是不是已經規範了?所以並沒有,我只是問你有沒有包山包海?\n144208\t146949\t對,但是對四條之二他是有某些事不可以調查但是47條已經突破到46條之二了\n165071\t178263\t有關於那個層面我們可以來看我先請問一下昨天還有立法委員在這邊問你的時候說我們都不談325你還附若說對325然後呢還講了一句只有調閱權\n180305\t180545\t李慧琼議員\n210305\t210325\t毀憲亂政\n226488\t228470\t他已經完全已經擴充了已經超乎585號解釋35號解釋的一些的解釋的意識了\n245697\t273620\t然後我們就繼續來看嘛有沒有超過這個意旨嘛我現在只針對一些被扭曲的部長我們給你時間解釋我們先來看看被扭曲的層面我一直不能夠接受院長你真的是一個很溫和的人可是你看到你們這些的人在外面講了一些讓人民覺得很恐慌的事情我覺得你有必要的時候應該私下跟他們說一下舉例來說你說我們可以人民可以無限制的被罰款罰到他破產為止\n274821\t294875\t各位這個在我們585裡面就已經有特別提到了你是有辦法來對人民做一些對於一些違反協助調查義務者在科罰傳範的範圍之內你可以給予科罰的這個罰金的部分我們不會把20年前大法官所解釋的把它法治化\n295715\t320199\t還有呢你再來看一下大家最關切的沒關係院長讓我再把這個例子講完好不好還有一個我們就特別提到大家就會把這個所謂的人民的這個社會上的關心人員無限制的放大經濟部長上來講說科技業趕快死耶如果說國防部長你跟我說部隊長趕快死耶因為這個所謂的社會關心人員可以是任何的人搞不好一個農業部長上來聽說我們老農業也很恐懼\n323180\t340490\t百公百業都在恐懼是這樣子嗎社會關係人員就已經出現在我們目前的憲法現在我們目前的憲法67條裡面也就有提到了各種委員會可以邀請政府人員還有社會上有關係的人員到會來被選難道憲法講到社會有關係的人是違憲嗎為什麼要把這樣的社會關係人員無限擴充到\n350336\t355419\t大媽也可以早餐廳的老闆娘娘可以誰都可以那67條怎麼來解釋呢?\n366425\t368586\t這部分跟那個5號5號解釋跟325號解釋以及63號解釋是不是有合乎到那個大法官解釋的意旨?\n393059\t414322\t那就來看一下嘛,你特別不斷的強調什麼四十七條,我只請問,原本的四十七條對四十七條為配的話有四十八條的大寫文。來啦,不要講,你剛剛從四十六二然後告訴我四十七條,我講四十七條你就講到四十八條,我們可不可以好好focus在同一個條文上面,你只告訴我,目前的四十七條跟我們職權行使法四十七條差別在哪裡?\n415824\t435900\t原本的法條跟新修的法條差別在哪裡?只有增訂對象,其他有關於提供了什麼副本等等之類,就在原本的法條當中,原本的法條當中,你要不要把它比對一下?有,這個本來是法條是只有相關文件,現在已經擴及到什麼資料檔案等等。\n436861\t464088\t還有我對一下我幫你多補充但是你剛所提到的副本還有等等之類的原本的法條就有了那最可怕的為什麼要把民眾給這個民眾裡面這個民眾也不是隨便的民眾都有這是我剛鋪單指稱你的你是要把所謂的民就是無限上綱這些民眾還是有他的限制存在而且在憲法的這個層面當中就有社會關係人的這樣的字眼出現所以不要憲法解釋的一部分\n464668\t468471\t部長,我現在在問你這些話裡面,社會關係人你被你無限這樣的酷刑到這樣的一個解釋,然後我們再來看,\n480999\t500542\t所以我們對於這個憲法67條我個人覺得包括我們的政院長我不用再敘述他所講的任何一句話他其實就有做的很清楚的一個說明67條保障的規定當中有不符合立法院各委員員的組織法都應該修掉那更不要說很多人也特別提到了像是李俊逸\n501482\t524994\t這是目前為止。我覺得他講的也有道理啊。你看,體制荒謬道理,我們應該把透過休閒改變的時候,我們至少要把國會的調查權,還有實施調查權會用到的聽證制度,把它建立起來。他現在已經是監察院的秘書長,他已經在絕口不談廢監察院這件事情。但是我贊成他認為,如果你把調查權拿掉的話,就會讓立法院變成沒有牙的老鼠。\n529416\t547947\t這都是過去斑斑可考所以院長我真的是要強調啊真的民進黨過去提出非常多現在你們當然為了要維護你們現在的說法就不但告訴他因為他們過去講的不是非常的完備然後呢所以說呢沒有初委員會但是呢還是一句話這些人\n548387\t568439\t。﹗\n568479\t568579\t主席\n585285\t604175\t立委沒那麼大,我們都一樣跟人民一樣大,但是院長我今天非常的火大,你知道為什麼嗎?請問你的行政院要推的法案到底是誰決定?上次我們特別提到的學生輔導法,明明就是讓所有的家長、讓所有的輔導人員都希望你都趕快通過,\n604875\t605636\t主席主席主席\n633973\t641499\t好,謝謝柯委員\n657605\t660794\t好,下一位我們請李昆成委員質詢\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席,我們下次請我們卓院長卓院長請備詢柯委員好院長好,上次才跟你提到有關於我們一些行政內閣的一些的問題今天我們就針對舊法來做一個論法的一個工作我們整理一下,我們從昨天到今天你昨天所特別提到的幾個疑慮\n當然是調查權聽證權你們認為是違反權利分立的原則還有你認為我們現在修的職權行使法跟這個誓字585誓字729的意旨不合還有沒有無差別的調查民眾範圍太廣而且你認為這樣會讓我們有包山包海這都是院長你昨天認為的嗎沒錯吧到目前為止你的認知還是如此經過這麼多次的一個攻防你還是這麼認為嗎\n你還是這麼認為,那我們就一一來去看,我還是要提醒,當然你今天早上也提過的這個585號解釋是一個比較大的公約數,但是我這邊也要提醒即將要上來的我們法務部的部長,我還是要強調585所指的還是一個必要的\n立法委員（行使調查權應該尊重其他受憲法保障的這樣子的獨立行使的權責所以\n所以已經有規範的為什麼告訴我們這叫包山包海呢?沒有啊!46支人橋鈴的非常的清楚啊!寫的非常的清楚不是嗎?\n我先跟你說46之二是不是已經有做了一些的規範?是不是已經規範了?所以並沒有,我只是問你有沒有包山包海?\n對,但是對四條之二他是有某些事不可以調查但是47條已經突破到46條之二了\n有關於那個層面我們可以來看我先請問一下昨天還有立法委員在這邊問你的時候說我們都不談325你還附若說對325然後呢還講了一句只有調閱權\n李慧琼議員\n毀憲亂政\n他已經完全已經擴充了已經超乎585號解釋35號解釋的一些的解釋的意識了\n然後我們就繼續來看嘛有沒有超過這個意旨嘛我現在只針對一些被扭曲的部長我們給你時間解釋我們先來看看被扭曲的層面我一直不能夠接受院長你真的是一個很溫和的人可是你看到你們這些的人在外面講了一些讓人民覺得很恐慌的事情我覺得你有必要的時候應該私下跟他們說一下舉例來說你說我們可以人民可以無限制的被罰款罰到他破產為止\n各位這個在我們585裡面就已經有特別提到了你是有辦法來對人民做一些對於一些違反協助調查義務者在科罰傳範的範圍之內你可以給予科罰的這個罰金的部分我們不會把20年前大法官所解釋的把它法治化\n還有呢你再來看一下大家最關切的沒關係院長讓我再把這個例子講完好不好還有一個我們就特別提到大家就會把這個所謂的人民的這個社會上的關心人員無限制的放大經濟部長上來講說科技業趕快死耶如果說國防部長你跟我說部隊長趕快死耶因為這個所謂的社會關心人員可以是任何的人搞不好一個農業部長上來聽說我們老農業也很恐懼\n百公百業都在恐懼是這樣子嗎社會關係人員就已經出現在我們目前的憲法現在我們目前的憲法67條裡面也就有提到了各種委員會可以邀請政府人員還有社會上有關係的人員到會來被選難道憲法講到社會有關係的人是違憲嗎為什麼要把這樣的社會關係人員無限擴充到\n大媽也可以早餐廳的老闆娘娘可以誰都可以那67條怎麼來解釋呢?\n這部分跟那個5號5號解釋跟325號解釋以及63號解釋是不是有合乎到那個大法官解釋的意旨?\n那就來看一下嘛,你特別不斷的強調什麼四十七條,我只請問,原本的四十七條對四十七條為配的話有四十八條的大寫文。來啦,不要講,你剛剛從四十六二然後告訴我四十七條,我講四十七條你就講到四十八條,我們可不可以好好focus在同一個條文上面,你只告訴我,目前的四十七條跟我們職權行使法四十七條差別在哪裡?\n原本的法條跟新修的法條差別在哪裡?只有增訂對象,其他有關於提供了什麼副本等等之類,就在原本的法條當中,原本的法條當中,你要不要把它比對一下?有,這個本來是法條是只有相關文件,現在已經擴及到什麼資料檔案等等。\n還有我對一下我幫你多補充但是你剛所提到的副本還有等等之類的原本的法條就有了那最可怕的為什麼要把民眾給這個民眾裡面這個民眾也不是隨便的民眾都有這是我剛鋪單指稱你的你是要把所謂的民就是無限上綱這些民眾還是有他的限制存在而且在憲法的這個層面當中就有社會關係人的這樣的字眼出現所以不要憲法解釋的一部分\n部長,我現在在問你這些話裡面,社會關係人你被你無限這樣的酷刑到這樣的一個解釋,然後我們再來看,\n所以我們對於這個憲法67條我個人覺得包括我們的政院長我不用再敘述他所講的任何一句話他其實就有做的很清楚的一個說明67條保障的規定當中有不符合立法院各委員員的組織法都應該修掉那更不要說很多人也特別提到了像是李俊逸\n這是目前為止。我覺得他講的也有道理啊。你看,體制荒謬道理,我們應該把透過休閒改變的時候,我們至少要把國會的調查權,還有實施調查權會用到的聽證制度,把它建立起來。他現在已經是監察院的秘書長,他已經在絕口不談廢監察院這件事情。但是我贊成他認為,如果你把調查權拿掉的話,就會讓立法院變成沒有牙的老鼠。\n這都是過去斑斑可考所以院長我真的是要強調啊真的民進黨過去提出非常多現在你們當然為了要維護你們現在的說法就不但告訴他因為他們過去講的不是非常的完備然後呢所以說呢沒有初委員會但是呢還是一句話這些人\n。﹗\n主席\n立委沒那麼大,我們都一樣跟人民一樣大,但是院長我今天非常的火大,你知道為什麼嗎?請問你的行政院要推的法案到底是誰決定?上次我們特別提到的學生輔導法,明明就是讓所有的家長、讓所有的輔導人員都希望你都趕快通過,\n主席主席主席\n好,謝謝柯委員\n好,下一位我們請李昆成委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.428 --> 00:06.331\n好,謝謝主席,我們下次請我們卓院長卓院長請備詢柯委員好院長好,上次才跟你提到有關於我們一些行政內閣的一些的問題今天我們就針對舊法來做一個論法的一個工作我們整理一下,我們從昨天到今天你昨天所特別提到的幾個疑慮\n\n00:28.502 --> 00:52.905\n當然是調查權聽證權你們認為是違反權利分立的原則還有你認為我們現在修的職權行使法跟這個誓字585誓字729的意旨不合還有沒有無差別的調查民眾範圍太廣而且你認為這樣會讓我們有包山包海這都是院長你昨天認為的嗎沒錯吧到目前為止你的認知還是如此經過這麼多次的一個攻防你還是這麼認為嗎\n\n00:55.647 --> 01:05.230\n你還是這麼認為,那我們就一一來去看,我還是要提醒,當然你今天早上也提過的這個585號解釋是一個比較大的公約數,但是我這邊也要提醒即將要上來的我們法務部的部長,我還是要強調585所指的還是一個必要的\n\n01:16.755 --> 01:19.176\n立法委員（行使調查權應該尊重其他受憲法保障的這樣子的獨立行使的權責所以\n\n01:42.585 --> 01:48.891\n所以已經有規範的為什麼告訴我們這叫包山包海呢?沒有啊!46支人橋鈴的非常的清楚啊!寫的非常的清楚不是嗎?\n\n02:12.679 --> 02:19.785\n我先跟你說46之二是不是已經有做了一些的規範?是不是已經規範了?所以並沒有,我只是問你有沒有包山包海?\n\n02:24.208 --> 02:26.949\n對,但是對四條之二他是有某些事不可以調查但是47條已經突破到46條之二了\n\n02:45.071 --> 02:58.263\n有關於那個層面我們可以來看我先請問一下昨天還有立法委員在這邊問你的時候說我們都不談325你還附若說對325然後呢還講了一句只有調閱權\n\n03:00.305 --> 03:00.545\n李慧琼議員\n\n03:30.305 --> 03:30.325\n毀憲亂政\n\n03:46.488 --> 03:48.470\n他已經完全已經擴充了已經超乎585號解釋35號解釋的一些的解釋的意識了\n\n04:05.697 --> 04:33.620\n然後我們就繼續來看嘛有沒有超過這個意旨嘛我現在只針對一些被扭曲的部長我們給你時間解釋我們先來看看被扭曲的層面我一直不能夠接受院長你真的是一個很溫和的人可是你看到你們這些的人在外面講了一些讓人民覺得很恐慌的事情我覺得你有必要的時候應該私下跟他們說一下舉例來說你說我們可以人民可以無限制的被罰款罰到他破產為止\n\n04:34.821 --> 04:54.875\n各位這個在我們585裡面就已經有特別提到了你是有辦法來對人民做一些對於一些違反協助調查義務者在科罰傳範的範圍之內你可以給予科罰的這個罰金的部分我們不會把20年前大法官所解釋的把它法治化\n\n04:55.715 --> 05:20.199\n還有呢你再來看一下大家最關切的沒關係院長讓我再把這個例子講完好不好還有一個我們就特別提到大家就會把這個所謂的人民的這個社會上的關心人員無限制的放大經濟部長上來講說科技業趕快死耶如果說國防部長你跟我說部隊長趕快死耶因為這個所謂的社會關心人員可以是任何的人搞不好一個農業部長上來聽說我們老農業也很恐懼\n\n05:23.180 --> 05:40.490\n百公百業都在恐懼是這樣子嗎社會關係人員就已經出現在我們目前的憲法現在我們目前的憲法67條裡面也就有提到了各種委員會可以邀請政府人員還有社會上有關係的人員到會來被選難道憲法講到社會有關係的人是違憲嗎為什麼要把這樣的社會關係人員無限擴充到\n\n05:50.336 --> 05:55.419\n大媽也可以早餐廳的老闆娘娘可以誰都可以那67條怎麼來解釋呢?\n\n06:06.425 --> 06:08.586\n這部分跟那個5號5號解釋跟325號解釋以及63號解釋是不是有合乎到那個大法官解釋的意旨?\n\n06:33.059 --> 06:54.322\n那就來看一下嘛,你特別不斷的強調什麼四十七條,我只請問,原本的四十七條對四十七條為配的話有四十八條的大寫文。來啦,不要講,你剛剛從四十六二然後告訴我四十七條,我講四十七條你就講到四十八條,我們可不可以好好focus在同一個條文上面,你只告訴我,目前的四十七條跟我們職權行使法四十七條差別在哪裡?\n\n06:55.824 --> 07:15.900\n原本的法條跟新修的法條差別在哪裡?只有增訂對象,其他有關於提供了什麼副本等等之類,就在原本的法條當中,原本的法條當中,你要不要把它比對一下?有,這個本來是法條是只有相關文件,現在已經擴及到什麼資料檔案等等。\n\n07:16.861 --> 07:44.088\n還有我對一下我幫你多補充但是你剛所提到的副本還有等等之類的原本的法條就有了那最可怕的為什麼要把民眾給這個民眾裡面這個民眾也不是隨便的民眾都有這是我剛鋪單指稱你的你是要把所謂的民就是無限上綱這些民眾還是有他的限制存在而且在憲法的這個層面當中就有社會關係人的這樣的字眼出現所以不要憲法解釋的一部分\n\n07:44.668 --> 07:48.471\n部長,我現在在問你這些話裡面,社會關係人你被你無限這樣的酷刑到這樣的一個解釋,然後我們再來看,\n\n08:00.999 --> 08:20.542\n所以我們對於這個憲法67條我個人覺得包括我們的政院長我不用再敘述他所講的任何一句話他其實就有做的很清楚的一個說明67條保障的規定當中有不符合立法院各委員員的組織法都應該修掉那更不要說很多人也特別提到了像是李俊逸\n\n08:21.482 --> 08:44.994\n這是目前為止。我覺得他講的也有道理啊。你看,體制荒謬道理,我們應該把透過休閒改變的時候,我們至少要把國會的調查權,還有實施調查權會用到的聽證制度,把它建立起來。他現在已經是監察院的秘書長,他已經在絕口不談廢監察院這件事情。但是我贊成他認為,如果你把調查權拿掉的話,就會讓立法院變成沒有牙的老鼠。\n\n08:49.416 --> 09:07.947\n這都是過去斑斑可考所以院長我真的是要強調啊真的民進黨過去提出非常多現在你們當然為了要維護你們現在的說法就不但告訴他因為他們過去講的不是非常的完備然後呢所以說呢沒有初委員會但是呢還是一句話這些人\n\n09:28.479 --> 09:28.579\n主席\n\n09:45.285 --> 10:04.175\n立委沒那麼大,我們都一樣跟人民一樣大,但是院長我今天非常的火大,你知道為什麼嗎?請問你的行政院要推的法案到底是誰決定?上次我們特別提到的學生輔導法,明明就是讓所有的家長、讓所有的輔導人員都希望你都趕快通過,\n\n10:04.875 --> 10:05.636\n主席主席主席\n\n10:33.973 --> 10:41.499\n好,謝謝柯委員\n\n10:57.605 --> 11:00.794\n好,下一位我們請李昆成委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.428,"end":6.331,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我們下次請我們卓院長卓院長請備詢柯委員好院長好,上次才跟你提到有關於我們一些行政內閣的一些的問題今天我們就針對舊法來做一個論法的一個工作我們整理一下,我們從昨天到今天你昨天所特別提到的幾個疑慮"},{"start":28.502,"end":52.905,"text":"當然是調查權聽證權你們認為是違反權利分立的原則還有你認為我們現在修的職權行使法跟這個誓字585誓字729的意旨不合還有沒有無差別的調查民眾範圍太廣而且你認為這樣會讓我們有包山包海這都是院長你昨天認為的嗎沒錯吧到目前為止你的認知還是如此經過這麼多次的一個攻防你還是這麼認為嗎"},{"start":55.647,"end":65.23,"text":"你還是這麼認為,那我們就一一來去看,我還是要提醒,當然你今天早上也提過的這個585號解釋是一個比較大的公約數,但是我這邊也要提醒即將要上來的我們法務部的部長,我還是要強調585所指的還是一個必要的"},{"start":76.755,"end":79.176,"text":"立法委員（行使調查權應該尊重其他受憲法保障的這樣子的獨立行使的權責所以"},{"start":102.585,"end":108.891,"text":"所以已經有規範的為什麼告訴我們這叫包山包海呢?沒有啊!46支人橋鈴的非常的清楚啊!寫的非常的清楚不是嗎?"},{"start":132.679,"end":139.785,"text":"我先跟你說46之二是不是已經有做了一些的規範?是不是已經規範了?所以並沒有,我只是問你有沒有包山包海?"},{"start":144.208,"end":146.949,"text":"對,但是對四條之二他是有某些事不可以調查但是47條已經突破到46條之二了"},{"start":165.071,"end":178.263,"text":"有關於那個層面我們可以來看我先請問一下昨天還有立法委員在這邊問你的時候說我們都不談325你還附若說對325然後呢還講了一句只有調閱權"},{"start":180.305,"end":180.545,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":210.305,"end":210.325,"text":"毀憲亂政"},{"start":226.488,"end":228.47,"text":"他已經完全已經擴充了已經超乎585號解釋35號解釋的一些的解釋的意識了"},{"start":245.697,"end":273.62,"text":"然後我們就繼續來看嘛有沒有超過這個意旨嘛我現在只針對一些被扭曲的部長我們給你時間解釋我們先來看看被扭曲的層面我一直不能夠接受院長你真的是一個很溫和的人可是你看到你們這些的人在外面講了一些讓人民覺得很恐慌的事情我覺得你有必要的時候應該私下跟他們說一下舉例來說你說我們可以人民可以無限制的被罰款罰到他破產為止"},{"start":274.821,"end":294.875,"text":"各位這個在我們585裡面就已經有特別提到了你是有辦法來對人民做一些對於一些違反協助調查義務者在科罰傳範的範圍之內你可以給予科罰的這個罰金的部分我們不會把20年前大法官所解釋的把它法治化"},{"start":295.715,"end":320.199,"text":"還有呢你再來看一下大家最關切的沒關係院長讓我再把這個例子講完好不好還有一個我們就特別提到大家就會把這個所謂的人民的這個社會上的關心人員無限制的放大經濟部長上來講說科技業趕快死耶如果說國防部長你跟我說部隊長趕快死耶因為這個所謂的社會關心人員可以是任何的人搞不好一個農業部長上來聽說我們老農業也很恐懼"},{"start":323.18,"end":340.49,"text":"百公百業都在恐懼是這樣子嗎社會關係人員就已經出現在我們目前的憲法現在我們目前的憲法67條裡面也就有提到了各種委員會可以邀請政府人員還有社會上有關係的人員到會來被選難道憲法講到社會有關係的人是違憲嗎為什麼要把這樣的社會關係人員無限擴充到"},{"start":350.336,"end":355.419,"text":"大媽也可以早餐廳的老闆娘娘可以誰都可以那67條怎麼來解釋呢?"},{"start":366.425,"end":368.586,"text":"這部分跟那個5號5號解釋跟325號解釋以及63號解釋是不是有合乎到那個大法官解釋的意旨?"},{"start":393.059,"end":414.322,"text":"那就來看一下嘛,你特別不斷的強調什麼四十七條,我只請問,原本的四十七條對四十七條為配的話有四十八條的大寫文。來啦,不要講,你剛剛從四十六二然後告訴我四十七條,我講四十七條你就講到四十八條,我們可不可以好好focus在同一個條文上面,你只告訴我,目前的四十七條跟我們職權行使法四十七條差別在哪裡?"},{"start":415.824,"end":435.9,"text":"原本的法條跟新修的法條差別在哪裡?只有增訂對象,其他有關於提供了什麼副本等等之類,就在原本的法條當中,原本的法條當中,你要不要把它比對一下?有,這個本來是法條是只有相關文件,現在已經擴及到什麼資料檔案等等。"},{"start":436.861,"end":464.088,"text":"還有我對一下我幫你多補充但是你剛所提到的副本還有等等之類的原本的法條就有了那最可怕的為什麼要把民眾給這個民眾裡面這個民眾也不是隨便的民眾都有這是我剛鋪單指稱你的你是要把所謂的民就是無限上綱這些民眾還是有他的限制存在而且在憲法的這個層面當中就有社會關係人的這樣的字眼出現所以不要憲法解釋的一部分"},{"start":464.668,"end":468.471,"text":"部長,我現在在問你這些話裡面,社會關係人你被你無限這樣的酷刑到這樣的一個解釋,然後我們再來看,"},{"start":480.999,"end":500.542,"text":"所以我們對於這個憲法67條我個人覺得包括我們的政院長我不用再敘述他所講的任何一句話他其實就有做的很清楚的一個說明67條保障的規定當中有不符合立法院各委員員的組織法都應該修掉那更不要說很多人也特別提到了像是李俊逸"},{"start":501.482,"end":524.994,"text":"這是目前為止。我覺得他講的也有道理啊。你看,體制荒謬道理,我們應該把透過休閒改變的時候,我們至少要把國會的調查權,還有實施調查權會用到的聽證制度,把它建立起來。他現在已經是監察院的秘書長,他已經在絕口不談廢監察院這件事情。但是我贊成他認為,如果你把調查權拿掉的話,就會讓立法院變成沒有牙的老鼠。"},{"start":529.416,"end":547.947,"text":"這都是過去斑斑可考所以院長我真的是要強調啊真的民進黨過去提出非常多現在你們當然為了要維護你們現在的說法就不但告訴他因為他們過去講的不是非常的完備然後呢所以說呢沒有初委員會但是呢還是一句話這些人"},{"start":548.387,"end":568.439,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":568.479,"end":568.579,"text":"主席"},{"start":585.285,"end":604.175,"text":"立委沒那麼大,我們都一樣跟人民一樣大,但是院長我今天非常的火大,你知道為什麼嗎?請問你的行政院要推的法案到底是誰決定?上次我們特別提到的學生輔導法,明明就是讓所有的家長、讓所有的輔導人員都希望你都趕快通過,"},{"start":604.875,"end":605.636,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":633.973,"end":641.499,"text":"好,謝謝柯委員"},{"start":657.605,"end":660.794,"text":"好,下一位我們請李昆成委員質詢"}]}}}}