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{\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 181.744, \"end\": 182.204, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 182.204, \"end\": 182.324, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 182.324, \"end\": 182.484, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"秀\", \"start\": 182.484, \"end\": 182.704, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 182.704, \"end\": 182.965, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 182.965, \"end\": 183.825, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 183.825, \"end\": 183.965, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 183.965, \"end\": 184.205, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 184.205, \"end\": 184.325, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 184.325, \"end\": 184.465, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 184.465, \"end\": 185.045, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"復\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, 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\"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"羅\"}, {\"word\": \"志\", \"start\": 614.402, \"end\": 614.783, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 614.783, \"end\": 615.003, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"散\", \"start\": 615.003, \"end\": 615.423, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"散\", \"start\": 615.423, \"end\": 615.603, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 615.603, \"end\": 615.963, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 615.963, \"end\": 615.983, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 616.752, \"end\": 616.772, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:18,784 --> 00:00:18,965\n主席\n\n2\n00:00:33,795 --> 00:00:52,468\n那這個前面已經經歷過非常多委員的質詢那我還是想要回歸因為我們今天最重要的就是覆議案就是說到底覆議案值不值得提出有沒有道理我們從這個方向來說但在這個之前這個院長之前也做過立委應該都知道我們這整個的流程\n\n3\n00:00:52,888 --> 00:00:53,068\n沈伯洋\n\n4\n00:01:14,341 --> 00:01:27,052\n國會改革的版本,國人很難去知道確切的內容,因為它是5月17日晚上7點才擺在我們每個人的桌子上。但我在這邊有先秀出來就是,在最早的時候,富坤崎那邊有29條,民眾黨總共有26條。\n\n5\n00:01:31,215 --> 00:01:57,843\n所以總共但是5月17號真正他們拿出來的是35條所以簡單來講有一些條文其實就算在之前討論過也不是我們在二讀看的那些條文那更不要講說他們在逐條討論的時候幾乎是不讓我們發言剛剛吳宗憲也在這邊他就是一個非常有名的不讓我發言的其中一位趙薇那這邊我也稍微整理了一下就是這個如果大家都說真的有討論的話\n\n6\n00:01:58,903 --> 00:02:19,646\n我這邊有整理副婚期在整個45個條文裏面副婚期總共只有發言177個字這個字有點小啦我唸幾句給這個院長聽你們都是柯建民的小弟啦總統嘉賓叫細寒的來簽名就好了啦這個細寒讓他來做就好了我給院長猜猜看那個細寒是誰\n\n7\n00:02:22,110 --> 00:02:37,651\n沈伯洋就是在嚇我啦我就坐在那邊,你看他一直叫我沈伯洋所以他就只發言了這177個字跟條文一點關係都沒有黃國昌講了106個字基本上就是我都講得很清楚了我沒有要補充的所以這就是當時逐條討論的現狀\n\n8\n00:02:40,234 --> 00:03:05,466\n今天他們把所有的字數加起來,包含院會的發言,包含程序的發言,包含質詢的文字,那些都不是真正在討論條文的時候。真正討論的條文是4月15號當天。所以我覺得作為立法委員,我們很可恥的地方是,作為這些條文的討論,我們幾乎是沒有發言的。然後發言的內容就像剛剛上面秀出來的狀況。但我覺得今天復議有點不一樣。\n\n9\n00:03:06,286 --> 00:03:35,444\n因為今天一個法案要不要覆議是重點在於說行政院可能覺得它至愛難行但是在整個過程當中行政院其實一定有機會說我認為這個法條有問題我認為這個法條至愛難行在平常的狀況法案可能都會有院版然後我們有我們的版本可能也有民間的版本大家一起來討論今天這個比較特別立法院的改革不可能會有院版所以行政院能夠做的就是在委員會在協商的時候來發表意見\n\n10\n00:03:36,084 --> 00:04:04,361\n所以我覺得這個條文有問題所以如果在這個過程新政院有發表意見的話今天來講這個覆議案可能這個legalground可能就會有點問題但是呢我這邊就整理了齁在4月15號討論竹條當天鍾嘉斌委員就想說希望司法院副廳長法務部次長來說明主席說我覺得已經沒有這個必要了接下來吳思耀委員也希望列席的官員法務部等等的監察院都能夠來說明\n\n11\n00:04:05,983 --> 00:04:17,492\n中央嘉賓委員都逐字稿說希望法務部能夠表示意見,都被拒絕了。也就是行政院所有的人坐在那一邊,當天他們說我覺得這個條文有問題等等之類,院長知道他們講了幾次嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:23,066 --> 00:04:50,566\n答案是一次都沒有一次都沒有所以從頭到尾發言次數是零次因此行政院在這一個法案完全沒有辦法表達它的空間這一次花東三法的時候至少在協商的時候我還記得我們的韓院長至少也有請交通部長來表達意見甚至有說520之後新的交通部長再來表達意見這就是一個比較正常的程序但是我們在逐條的時候行政官員連表達意見的機會都沒有\n\n13\n00:04:52,988 --> 00:05:20,612\n講得比剛剛109次跟177次都還要來得更少更不要講說後來有進入到黨團朝野的協商當時的朝野協商本來已經開始討論條文了第15條15條之一一直開始往下討論結果呢正要讓說在座的行政官員是不是又能夠表達意見的時候呢到最後又沒了理由是因為黃國昌站起來離席了他一離席了黨團協商就沒有辦法繼續下去\n\n14\n00:05:21,660 --> 00:05:36,810\n所以從頭到尾我覺得覆議這件事情為什麼那麼的重要就是因為整個的程序裡面我們的行政官員沒有寡達意見的空間啊明明法務部可能認為這個法案有問題司法院可能認為這個法案有問題甚至程序都有問題都沒有發表的機會\n\n15\n00:05:39,071 --> 00:06:01,873\n所以我必須在這邊嚴正的聲明,就是前面雖然他們討論了很多復議、民意基礎等等之類的,單純就法論法來講,這個復議的提出是非常有正當理由的。不知道院長同不同意嗎?謝謝委員的說明,聽委員這樣子詳細的說明,我覺得更加的遺憾。在這麼重要的、事關到每一個國人都有可能面臨的案子的時候,\n\n16\n00:06:02,273 --> 00:06:31,194\n行政院竟然連一次發言的聲音機會都沒有所以我們一定要把握現在這個覆議案提出的機會好好的跟大院來討論我們也希望藉由這樣的一個溝通也讓國人知道讓其他的立法委員知道在明天投票的時候應該怎麼去投下他們的票那接下來我就要講到這因為今天除了我之外大概前面已經有四十幾位立法委員都發過言那他們的質詢內容讓我覺得非常的奇怪就是他們很習慣不知道跟誰學的都話講一半\n\n17\n00:06:31,954 --> 00:06:50,153\n那話都講一半的質詢其實是很難被回答的也就是說他永遠都只把其中條文的一部分拿出來講但整體到底是怎麼樣都不說所以我在這邊把話講一半的情形全部都列在我的簡報上面譬如說一直提藐視國會罪的刑罰但完全不提藐視國會罪對人民罰錢這一塊\n\n18\n00:06:52,557 --> 00:07:17,079\n一直說有通過民進黨的版本結果卻不說條文本身有互相的矛盾因為他們硬通過民進黨的版本一直提三場公聽會我相信院長一直聽到三場公聽會其實只有一場跟他們的法案有關係另外兩場完全無關那是民進黨版本的公聽會一直提發言紀錄卻不提質詢跟公聽會根本就不算是逐條的討論然後一直喜歡提民進黨散會\n\n19\n00:07:18,259 --> 00:07:42,172\n當問題出在民進黨提散會是為了要擋住4月15號不讓委員不讓官員發言的那一個過程然後一直提國會改革無法這可能是最搞笑的地方因為他們一直提無法但明明只有兩部法律那他們提的國會改革無法是民進黨版本提的國會改革的無法所以到現在我也不知道他們在講什麼一直在提這個國外有舉手表決卻不提人家是坐在位子上表決\n\n20\n00:07:43,092 --> 00:08:04,008\n一直說要查弊案結果卻沒有講說條文連弊案兩個字都找不到更不要講說立法院的職責不包含查弊案一直在提國會要調查卻沒有提到這是一個沒有邊界的調查一直在提說他的發動非常的嚴格卻沒有提他們留了一個後門委員會發動的條件非常的寬鬆\n\n21\n00:08:05,109 --> 00:08:30,579\n一直提說虛偽陳述很明確卻沒有講說虛偽陳述的範圍他們沒有界定一直說有律師的保障卻又不提這一個主席才可以決定能不能夠有律師一直在提證人可以拒絕回答卻沒有提他們法條忘記設計了告知義務今天早上又再提了47條卻不敢告訴國人本來的47條正當理由可以拒絕結果他們現在把這個刪掉了\n\n22\n00:08:32,099 --> 00:08:59,449\n所以太多了還一直提說我們過去提的國會改革卻不提我們通過了20項以上的國會改革最可怕的是一直拿美國法結果美國法的藐視國會第一個不包含資訊那天法務部長又回答道更不要講說美國的範圍非常的嚴格最重要的是我是在美國做過聽證的人在座的立法委員可能也只有我去美國做過聽證美國做聽證有分成邀請的跟強制的他也不告訴大家\n\n23\n00:09:00,009 --> 00:09:17,009\n所以有各式各樣的資訊不斷的隱瞞因此到最後連一直提到說行政院很多的單位也可以做調查卻沒有提到這些調查的單位他可能有一些考積﹑有陣風我們今天給立法委員那麼大的權力\n\n24\n00:09:18,083 --> 00:09:47,002\n但是立法委員卻沒有人去監督他如果立法委員沒有自律如果立法委員自己沒有節制的措施給他那麼大的權力會變得非常的可怕所以其實我們一直以來國會改革無法真正的無法是我們簡報上的這一些這一些國會改革無法確實有人提出就是民進黨自己我們目前無法已經提了四法的修正那個不知道院長知不知道這四法的修正現在躺在哪裡\n\n25\n00:09:48,494 --> 00:10:15,983\n請委員指教還躺在委員會為什麼會躺在委員會呢我們提到了一些機密就是你今天機密會議你要怎麼做你的洩密的時候該怎麼辦你今天自律的規範有哪些我們提了一堆這些法案目前呢在程序委員會總共被擋了16次然後呢在委員會被排出來5次都被傅坤祺還有羅志強提散會散了5次\n\n26\n00:10:16,752 --> 00:10:16,772\n好,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n18784\t18965\t主席\n33795\t52468\t那這個前面已經經歷過非常多委員的質詢那我還是想要回歸因為我們今天最重要的就是覆議案就是說到底覆議案值不值得提出有沒有道理我們從這個方向來說但在這個之前這個院長之前也做過立委應該都知道我們這整個的流程\n52888\t53068\t沈伯洋\n74341\t87052\t國會改革的版本,國人很難去知道確切的內容,因為它是5月17日晚上7點才擺在我們每個人的桌子上。但我在這邊有先秀出來就是,在最早的時候,富坤崎那邊有29條,民眾黨總共有26條。\n91215\t117843\t所以總共但是5月17號真正他們拿出來的是35條所以簡單來講有一些條文其實就算在之前討論過也不是我們在二讀看的那些條文那更不要講說他們在逐條討論的時候幾乎是不讓我們發言剛剛吳宗憲也在這邊他就是一個非常有名的不讓我發言的其中一位趙薇那這邊我也稍微整理了一下就是這個如果大家都說真的有討論的話\n118903\t139646\t我這邊有整理副婚期在整個45個條文裏面副婚期總共只有發言177個字這個字有點小啦我唸幾句給這個院長聽你們都是柯建民的小弟啦總統嘉賓叫細寒的來簽名就好了啦這個細寒讓他來做就好了我給院長猜猜看那個細寒是誰\n142110\t157651\t沈伯洋就是在嚇我啦我就坐在那邊,你看他一直叫我沈伯洋所以他就只發言了這177個字跟條文一點關係都沒有黃國昌講了106個字基本上就是我都講得很清楚了我沒有要補充的所以這就是當時逐條討論的現狀\n160234\t185466\t今天他們把所有的字數加起來,包含院會的發言,包含程序的發言,包含質詢的文字,那些都不是真正在討論條文的時候。真正討論的條文是4月15號當天。所以我覺得作為立法委員,我們很可恥的地方是,作為這些條文的討論,我們幾乎是沒有發言的。然後發言的內容就像剛剛上面秀出來的狀況。但我覺得今天復議有點不一樣。\n186286\t215444\t因為今天一個法案要不要覆議是重點在於說行政院可能覺得它至愛難行但是在整個過程當中行政院其實一定有機會說我認為這個法條有問題我認為這個法條至愛難行在平常的狀況法案可能都會有院版然後我們有我們的版本可能也有民間的版本大家一起來討論今天這個比較特別立法院的改革不可能會有院版所以行政院能夠做的就是在委員會在協商的時候來發表意見\n216084\t244361\t所以我覺得這個條文有問題所以如果在這個過程新政院有發表意見的話今天來講這個覆議案可能這個legal ground可能就會有點問題但是呢我這邊就整理了齁在4月15號討論竹條當天鍾嘉斌委員就想說希望司法院副廳長法務部次長來說明主席說我覺得已經沒有這個必要了接下來吳思耀委員也希望列席的官員法務部等等的監察院都能夠來說明\n245983\t257492\t中央嘉賓委員都逐字稿說希望法務部能夠表示意見,都被拒絕了。也就是行政院所有的人坐在那一邊,當天他們說我覺得這個條文有問題等等之類,院長知道他們講了幾次嗎?\n263066\t290566\t答案是一次都沒有一次都沒有所以從頭到尾發言次數是零次因此行政院在這一個法案完全沒有辦法表達它的空間這一次花東三法的時候至少在協商的時候我還記得我們的韓院長至少也有請交通部長來表達意見甚至有說520之後新的交通部長再來表達意見這就是一個比較正常的程序但是我們在逐條的時候行政官員連表達意見的機會都沒有\n292988\t320612\t講得比剛剛109次跟177次都還要來得更少更不要講說後來有進入到黨團朝野的協商當時的朝野協商本來已經開始討論條文了第15條15條之一一直開始往下討論結果呢正要讓說在座的行政官員是不是又能夠表達意見的時候呢到最後又沒了理由是因為黃國昌站起來離席了他一離席了黨團協商就沒有辦法繼續下去\n321660\t336810\t所以從頭到尾我覺得覆議這件事情為什麼那麼的重要就是因為整個的程序裡面我們的行政官員沒有寡達意見的空間啊明明法務部可能認為這個法案有問題司法院可能認為這個法案有問題甚至程序都有問題都沒有發表的機會\n339071\t361873\t所以我必須在這邊嚴正的聲明,就是前面雖然他們討論了很多復議、民意基礎等等之類的,單純就法論法來講,這個復議的提出是非常有正當理由的。不知道院長同不同意嗎?謝謝委員的說明,聽委員這樣子詳細的說明,我覺得更加的遺憾。在這麼重要的、事關到每一個國人都有可能面臨的案子的時候,\n362273\t391194\t行政院竟然連一次發言的聲音機會都沒有所以我們一定要把握現在這個覆議案提出的機會好好的跟大院來討論我們也希望藉由這樣的一個溝通也讓國人知道讓其他的立法委員知道在明天投票的時候應該怎麼去投下他們的票那接下來我就要講到這因為今天除了我之外大概前面已經有四十幾位立法委員都發過言那他們的質詢內容讓我覺得非常的奇怪就是他們很習慣不知道跟誰學的都話講一半\n391954\t410153\t那話都講一半的質詢其實是很難被回答的也就是說他永遠都只把其中條文的一部分拿出來講但整體到底是怎麼樣都不說所以我在這邊把話講一半的情形全部都列在我的簡報上面譬如說一直提藐視國會罪的刑罰但完全不提藐視國會罪對人民罰錢這一塊\n412557\t437079\t一直說有通過民進黨的版本結果卻不說條文本身有互相的矛盾因為他們硬通過民進黨的版本一直提三場公聽會我相信院長一直聽到三場公聽會其實只有一場跟他們的法案有關係另外兩場完全無關那是民進黨版本的公聽會一直提發言紀錄卻不提質詢跟公聽會根本就不算是逐條的討論然後一直喜歡提民進黨散會\n438259\t462172\t當問題出在民進黨提散會是為了要擋住4月15號不讓委員不讓官員發言的那一個過程然後一直提國會改革無法這可能是最搞笑的地方因為他們一直提無法但明明只有兩部法律那他們提的國會改革無法是民進黨版本提的國會改革的無法所以到現在我也不知道他們在講什麼一直在提這個國外有舉手表決卻不提人家是坐在位子上表決\n463092\t484008\t一直說要查弊案結果卻沒有講說條文連弊案兩個字都找不到更不要講說立法院的職責不包含查弊案一直在提國會要調查卻沒有提到這是一個沒有邊界的調查一直在提說他的發動非常的嚴格卻沒有提他們留了一個後門委員會發動的條件非常的寬鬆\n485109\t510579\t一直提說虛偽陳述很明確卻沒有講說虛偽陳述的範圍他們沒有界定一直說有律師的保障卻又不提這一個主席才可以決定能不能夠有律師一直在提證人可以拒絕回答卻沒有提他們法條忘記設計了告知義務今天早上又再提了47條卻不敢告訴國人本來的47條正當理由可以拒絕結果他們現在把這個刪掉了\n512099\t539449\t所以太多了還一直提說我們過去提的國會改革卻不提我們通過了20項以上的國會改革最可怕的是一直拿美國法結果美國法的藐視國會第一個不包含資訊那天法務部長又回答道更不要講說美國的範圍非常的嚴格最重要的是我是在美國做過聽證的人在座的立法委員可能也只有我去美國做過聽證美國做聽證有分成邀請的跟強制的他也不告訴大家\n540009\t557009\t所以有各式各樣的資訊不斷的隱瞞因此到最後連一直提到說行政院很多的單位也可以做調查卻沒有提到這些調查的單位他可能有一些考積﹑有陣風我們今天給立法委員那麼大的權力\n558083\t587002\t但是立法委員卻沒有人去監督他如果立法委員沒有自律如果立法委員自己沒有節制的措施給他那麼大的權力會變得非常的可怕所以其實我們一直以來國會改革無法真正的無法是我們簡報上的這一些這一些國會改革無法確實有人提出就是民進黨自己我們目前無法已經提了四法的修正那個不知道院長知不知道這四法的修正現在躺在哪裡\n588494\t615983\t請委員指教還躺在委員會為什麼會躺在委員會呢我們提到了一些機密就是你今天機密會議你要怎麼做你的洩密的時候該怎麼辦你今天自律的規範有哪些我們提了一堆這些法案目前呢在程序委員會總共被擋了16次然後呢在委員會被排出來5次都被傅坤祺還有羅志強提散會散了5次\n616752\t616772\t好,謝謝\n","txt":"主席\n那這個前面已經經歷過非常多委員的質詢那我還是想要回歸因為我們今天最重要的就是覆議案就是說到底覆議案值不值得提出有沒有道理我們從這個方向來說但在這個之前這個院長之前也做過立委應該都知道我們這整個的流程\n沈伯洋\n國會改革的版本,國人很難去知道確切的內容,因為它是5月17日晚上7點才擺在我們每個人的桌子上。但我在這邊有先秀出來就是,在最早的時候,富坤崎那邊有29條,民眾黨總共有26條。\n所以總共但是5月17號真正他們拿出來的是35條所以簡單來講有一些條文其實就算在之前討論過也不是我們在二讀看的那些條文那更不要講說他們在逐條討論的時候幾乎是不讓我們發言剛剛吳宗憲也在這邊他就是一個非常有名的不讓我發言的其中一位趙薇那這邊我也稍微整理了一下就是這個如果大家都說真的有討論的話\n我這邊有整理副婚期在整個45個條文裏面副婚期總共只有發言177個字這個字有點小啦我唸幾句給這個院長聽你們都是柯建民的小弟啦總統嘉賓叫細寒的來簽名就好了啦這個細寒讓他來做就好了我給院長猜猜看那個細寒是誰\n沈伯洋就是在嚇我啦我就坐在那邊,你看他一直叫我沈伯洋所以他就只發言了這177個字跟條文一點關係都沒有黃國昌講了106個字基本上就是我都講得很清楚了我沒有要補充的所以這就是當時逐條討論的現狀\n今天他們把所有的字數加起來,包含院會的發言,包含程序的發言,包含質詢的文字,那些都不是真正在討論條文的時候。真正討論的條文是4月15號當天。所以我覺得作為立法委員,我們很可恥的地方是,作為這些條文的討論,我們幾乎是沒有發言的。然後發言的內容就像剛剛上面秀出來的狀況。但我覺得今天復議有點不一樣。\n因為今天一個法案要不要覆議是重點在於說行政院可能覺得它至愛難行但是在整個過程當中行政院其實一定有機會說我認為這個法條有問題我認為這個法條至愛難行在平常的狀況法案可能都會有院版然後我們有我們的版本可能也有民間的版本大家一起來討論今天這個比較特別立法院的改革不可能會有院版所以行政院能夠做的就是在委員會在協商的時候來發表意見\n所以我覺得這個條文有問題所以如果在這個過程新政院有發表意見的話今天來講這個覆議案可能這個legal ground可能就會有點問題但是呢我這邊就整理了齁在4月15號討論竹條當天鍾嘉斌委員就想說希望司法院副廳長法務部次長來說明主席說我覺得已經沒有這個必要了接下來吳思耀委員也希望列席的官員法務部等等的監察院都能夠來說明\n中央嘉賓委員都逐字稿說希望法務部能夠表示意見,都被拒絕了。也就是行政院所有的人坐在那一邊,當天他們說我覺得這個條文有問題等等之類,院長知道他們講了幾次嗎?\n答案是一次都沒有一次都沒有所以從頭到尾發言次數是零次因此行政院在這一個法案完全沒有辦法表達它的空間這一次花東三法的時候至少在協商的時候我還記得我們的韓院長至少也有請交通部長來表達意見甚至有說520之後新的交通部長再來表達意見這就是一個比較正常的程序但是我們在逐條的時候行政官員連表達意見的機會都沒有\n講得比剛剛109次跟177次都還要來得更少更不要講說後來有進入到黨團朝野的協商當時的朝野協商本來已經開始討論條文了第15條15條之一一直開始往下討論結果呢正要讓說在座的行政官員是不是又能夠表達意見的時候呢到最後又沒了理由是因為黃國昌站起來離席了他一離席了黨團協商就沒有辦法繼續下去\n所以從頭到尾我覺得覆議這件事情為什麼那麼的重要就是因為整個的程序裡面我們的行政官員沒有寡達意見的空間啊明明法務部可能認為這個法案有問題司法院可能認為這個法案有問題甚至程序都有問題都沒有發表的機會\n所以我必須在這邊嚴正的聲明,就是前面雖然他們討論了很多復議、民意基礎等等之類的,單純就法論法來講,這個復議的提出是非常有正當理由的。不知道院長同不同意嗎?謝謝委員的說明,聽委員這樣子詳細的說明,我覺得更加的遺憾。在這麼重要的、事關到每一個國人都有可能面臨的案子的時候,\n行政院竟然連一次發言的聲音機會都沒有所以我們一定要把握現在這個覆議案提出的機會好好的跟大院來討論我們也希望藉由這樣的一個溝通也讓國人知道讓其他的立法委員知道在明天投票的時候應該怎麼去投下他們的票那接下來我就要講到這因為今天除了我之外大概前面已經有四十幾位立法委員都發過言那他們的質詢內容讓我覺得非常的奇怪就是他們很習慣不知道跟誰學的都話講一半\n那話都講一半的質詢其實是很難被回答的也就是說他永遠都只把其中條文的一部分拿出來講但整體到底是怎麼樣都不說所以我在這邊把話講一半的情形全部都列在我的簡報上面譬如說一直提藐視國會罪的刑罰但完全不提藐視國會罪對人民罰錢這一塊\n一直說有通過民進黨的版本結果卻不說條文本身有互相的矛盾因為他們硬通過民進黨的版本一直提三場公聽會我相信院長一直聽到三場公聽會其實只有一場跟他們的法案有關係另外兩場完全無關那是民進黨版本的公聽會一直提發言紀錄卻不提質詢跟公聽會根本就不算是逐條的討論然後一直喜歡提民進黨散會\n當問題出在民進黨提散會是為了要擋住4月15號不讓委員不讓官員發言的那一個過程然後一直提國會改革無法這可能是最搞笑的地方因為他們一直提無法但明明只有兩部法律那他們提的國會改革無法是民進黨版本提的國會改革的無法所以到現在我也不知道他們在講什麼一直在提這個國外有舉手表決卻不提人家是坐在位子上表決\n一直說要查弊案結果卻沒有講說條文連弊案兩個字都找不到更不要講說立法院的職責不包含查弊案一直在提國會要調查卻沒有提到這是一個沒有邊界的調查一直在提說他的發動非常的嚴格卻沒有提他們留了一個後門委員會發動的條件非常的寬鬆\n一直提說虛偽陳述很明確卻沒有講說虛偽陳述的範圍他們沒有界定一直說有律師的保障卻又不提這一個主席才可以決定能不能夠有律師一直在提證人可以拒絕回答卻沒有提他們法條忘記設計了告知義務今天早上又再提了47條卻不敢告訴國人本來的47條正當理由可以拒絕結果他們現在把這個刪掉了\n所以太多了還一直提說我們過去提的國會改革卻不提我們通過了20項以上的國會改革最可怕的是一直拿美國法結果美國法的藐視國會第一個不包含資訊那天法務部長又回答道更不要講說美國的範圍非常的嚴格最重要的是我是在美國做過聽證的人在座的立法委員可能也只有我去美國做過聽證美國做聽證有分成邀請的跟強制的他也不告訴大家\n所以有各式各樣的資訊不斷的隱瞞因此到最後連一直提到說行政院很多的單位也可以做調查卻沒有提到這些調查的單位他可能有一些考積﹑有陣風我們今天給立法委員那麼大的權力\n但是立法委員卻沒有人去監督他如果立法委員沒有自律如果立法委員自己沒有節制的措施給他那麼大的權力會變得非常的可怕所以其實我們一直以來國會改革無法真正的無法是我們簡報上的這一些這一些國會改革無法確實有人提出就是民進黨自己我們目前無法已經提了四法的修正那個不知道院長知不知道這四法的修正現在躺在哪裡\n請委員指教還躺在委員會為什麼會躺在委員會呢我們提到了一些機密就是你今天機密會議你要怎麼做你的洩密的時候該怎麼辦你今天自律的規範有哪些我們提了一堆這些法案目前呢在程序委員會總共被擋了16次然後呢在委員會被排出來5次都被傅坤祺還有羅志強提散會散了5次\n好,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:18.784 --> 00:18.965\n主席\n\n00:33.795 --> 00:52.468\n那這個前面已經經歷過非常多委員的質詢那我還是想要回歸因為我們今天最重要的就是覆議案就是說到底覆議案值不值得提出有沒有道理我們從這個方向來說但在這個之前這個院長之前也做過立委應該都知道我們這整個的流程\n\n00:52.888 --> 00:53.068\n沈伯洋\n\n01:14.341 --> 01:27.052\n國會改革的版本,國人很難去知道確切的內容,因為它是5月17日晚上7點才擺在我們每個人的桌子上。但我在這邊有先秀出來就是,在最早的時候,富坤崎那邊有29條,民眾黨總共有26條。\n\n01:31.215 --> 01:57.843\n所以總共但是5月17號真正他們拿出來的是35條所以簡單來講有一些條文其實就算在之前討論過也不是我們在二讀看的那些條文那更不要講說他們在逐條討論的時候幾乎是不讓我們發言剛剛吳宗憲也在這邊他就是一個非常有名的不讓我發言的其中一位趙薇那這邊我也稍微整理了一下就是這個如果大家都說真的有討論的話\n\n01:58.903 --> 02:19.646\n我這邊有整理副婚期在整個45個條文裏面副婚期總共只有發言177個字這個字有點小啦我唸幾句給這個院長聽你們都是柯建民的小弟啦總統嘉賓叫細寒的來簽名就好了啦這個細寒讓他來做就好了我給院長猜猜看那個細寒是誰\n\n02:22.110 --> 02:37.651\n沈伯洋就是在嚇我啦我就坐在那邊,你看他一直叫我沈伯洋所以他就只發言了這177個字跟條文一點關係都沒有黃國昌講了106個字基本上就是我都講得很清楚了我沒有要補充的所以這就是當時逐條討論的現狀\n\n02:40.234 --> 03:05.466\n今天他們把所有的字數加起來,包含院會的發言,包含程序的發言,包含質詢的文字,那些都不是真正在討論條文的時候。真正討論的條文是4月15號當天。所以我覺得作為立法委員,我們很可恥的地方是,作為這些條文的討論,我們幾乎是沒有發言的。然後發言的內容就像剛剛上面秀出來的狀況。但我覺得今天復議有點不一樣。\n\n03:06.286 --> 03:35.444\n因為今天一個法案要不要覆議是重點在於說行政院可能覺得它至愛難行但是在整個過程當中行政院其實一定有機會說我認為這個法條有問題我認為這個法條至愛難行在平常的狀況法案可能都會有院版然後我們有我們的版本可能也有民間的版本大家一起來討論今天這個比較特別立法院的改革不可能會有院版所以行政院能夠做的就是在委員會在協商的時候來發表意見\n\n03:36.084 --> 04:04.361\n所以我覺得這個條文有問題所以如果在這個過程新政院有發表意見的話今天來講這個覆議案可能這個legalground可能就會有點問題但是呢我這邊就整理了齁在4月15號討論竹條當天鍾嘉斌委員就想說希望司法院副廳長法務部次長來說明主席說我覺得已經沒有這個必要了接下來吳思耀委員也希望列席的官員法務部等等的監察院都能夠來說明\n\n04:05.983 --> 04:17.492\n中央嘉賓委員都逐字稿說希望法務部能夠表示意見,都被拒絕了。也就是行政院所有的人坐在那一邊,當天他們說我覺得這個條文有問題等等之類,院長知道他們講了幾次嗎?\n\n04:23.066 --> 04:50.566\n答案是一次都沒有一次都沒有所以從頭到尾發言次數是零次因此行政院在這一個法案完全沒有辦法表達它的空間這一次花東三法的時候至少在協商的時候我還記得我們的韓院長至少也有請交通部長來表達意見甚至有說520之後新的交通部長再來表達意見這就是一個比較正常的程序但是我們在逐條的時候行政官員連表達意見的機會都沒有\n\n04:52.988 --> 05:20.612\n講得比剛剛109次跟177次都還要來得更少更不要講說後來有進入到黨團朝野的協商當時的朝野協商本來已經開始討論條文了第15條15條之一一直開始往下討論結果呢正要讓說在座的行政官員是不是又能夠表達意見的時候呢到最後又沒了理由是因為黃國昌站起來離席了他一離席了黨團協商就沒有辦法繼續下去\n\n05:21.660 --> 05:36.810\n所以從頭到尾我覺得覆議這件事情為什麼那麼的重要就是因為整個的程序裡面我們的行政官員沒有寡達意見的空間啊明明法務部可能認為這個法案有問題司法院可能認為這個法案有問題甚至程序都有問題都沒有發表的機會\n\n05:39.071 --> 06:01.873\n所以我必須在這邊嚴正的聲明,就是前面雖然他們討論了很多復議、民意基礎等等之類的,單純就法論法來講,這個復議的提出是非常有正當理由的。不知道院長同不同意嗎?謝謝委員的說明,聽委員這樣子詳細的說明,我覺得更加的遺憾。在這麼重要的、事關到每一個國人都有可能面臨的案子的時候,\n\n06:02.273 --> 06:31.194\n行政院竟然連一次發言的聲音機會都沒有所以我們一定要把握現在這個覆議案提出的機會好好的跟大院來討論我們也希望藉由這樣的一個溝通也讓國人知道讓其他的立法委員知道在明天投票的時候應該怎麼去投下他們的票那接下來我就要講到這因為今天除了我之外大概前面已經有四十幾位立法委員都發過言那他們的質詢內容讓我覺得非常的奇怪就是他們很習慣不知道跟誰學的都話講一半\n\n06:31.954 --> 06:50.153\n那話都講一半的質詢其實是很難被回答的也就是說他永遠都只把其中條文的一部分拿出來講但整體到底是怎麼樣都不說所以我在這邊把話講一半的情形全部都列在我的簡報上面譬如說一直提藐視國會罪的刑罰但完全不提藐視國會罪對人民罰錢這一塊\n\n06:52.557 --> 07:17.079\n一直說有通過民進黨的版本結果卻不說條文本身有互相的矛盾因為他們硬通過民進黨的版本一直提三場公聽會我相信院長一直聽到三場公聽會其實只有一場跟他們的法案有關係另外兩場完全無關那是民進黨版本的公聽會一直提發言紀錄卻不提質詢跟公聽會根本就不算是逐條的討論然後一直喜歡提民進黨散會\n\n07:18.259 --> 07:42.172\n當問題出在民進黨提散會是為了要擋住4月15號不讓委員不讓官員發言的那一個過程然後一直提國會改革無法這可能是最搞笑的地方因為他們一直提無法但明明只有兩部法律那他們提的國會改革無法是民進黨版本提的國會改革的無法所以到現在我也不知道他們在講什麼一直在提這個國外有舉手表決卻不提人家是坐在位子上表決\n\n07:43.092 --> 08:04.008\n一直說要查弊案結果卻沒有講說條文連弊案兩個字都找不到更不要講說立法院的職責不包含查弊案一直在提國會要調查卻沒有提到這是一個沒有邊界的調查一直在提說他的發動非常的嚴格卻沒有提他們留了一個後門委員會發動的條件非常的寬鬆\n\n08:05.109 --> 08:30.579\n一直提說虛偽陳述很明確卻沒有講說虛偽陳述的範圍他們沒有界定一直說有律師的保障卻又不提這一個主席才可以決定能不能夠有律師一直在提證人可以拒絕回答卻沒有提他們法條忘記設計了告知義務今天早上又再提了47條卻不敢告訴國人本來的47條正當理由可以拒絕結果他們現在把這個刪掉了\n\n08:32.099 --> 08:59.449\n所以太多了還一直提說我們過去提的國會改革卻不提我們通過了20項以上的國會改革最可怕的是一直拿美國法結果美國法的藐視國會第一個不包含資訊那天法務部長又回答道更不要講說美國的範圍非常的嚴格最重要的是我是在美國做過聽證的人在座的立法委員可能也只有我去美國做過聽證美國做聽證有分成邀請的跟強制的他也不告訴大家\n\n09:00.009 --> 09:17.009\n所以有各式各樣的資訊不斷的隱瞞因此到最後連一直提到說行政院很多的單位也可以做調查卻沒有提到這些調查的單位他可能有一些考積﹑有陣風我們今天給立法委員那麼大的權力\n\n09:18.083 --> 09:47.002\n但是立法委員卻沒有人去監督他如果立法委員沒有自律如果立法委員自己沒有節制的措施給他那麼大的權力會變得非常的可怕所以其實我們一直以來國會改革無法真正的無法是我們簡報上的這一些這一些國會改革無法確實有人提出就是民進黨自己我們目前無法已經提了四法的修正那個不知道院長知不知道這四法的修正現在躺在哪裡\n\n09:48.494 --> 10:15.983\n請委員指教還躺在委員會為什麼會躺在委員會呢我們提到了一些機密就是你今天機密會議你要怎麼做你的洩密的時候該怎麼辦你今天自律的規範有哪些我們提了一堆這些法案目前呢在程序委員會總共被擋了16次然後呢在委員會被排出來5次都被傅坤祺還有羅志強提散會散了5次\n\n10:16.752 --> 10:16.772\n好,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":18.784,"end":18.965,"text":"主席"},{"start":33.795,"end":52.468,"text":"那這個前面已經經歷過非常多委員的質詢那我還是想要回歸因為我們今天最重要的就是覆議案就是說到底覆議案值不值得提出有沒有道理我們從這個方向來說但在這個之前這個院長之前也做過立委應該都知道我們這整個的流程"},{"start":52.888,"end":53.068,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":74.341,"end":87.052,"text":"國會改革的版本,國人很難去知道確切的內容,因為它是5月17日晚上7點才擺在我們每個人的桌子上。但我在這邊有先秀出來就是,在最早的時候,富坤崎那邊有29條,民眾黨總共有26條。"},{"start":91.215,"end":117.843,"text":"所以總共但是5月17號真正他們拿出來的是35條所以簡單來講有一些條文其實就算在之前討論過也不是我們在二讀看的那些條文那更不要講說他們在逐條討論的時候幾乎是不讓我們發言剛剛吳宗憲也在這邊他就是一個非常有名的不讓我發言的其中一位趙薇那這邊我也稍微整理了一下就是這個如果大家都說真的有討論的話"},{"start":118.903,"end":139.646,"text":"我這邊有整理副婚期在整個45個條文裏面副婚期總共只有發言177個字這個字有點小啦我唸幾句給這個院長聽你們都是柯建民的小弟啦總統嘉賓叫細寒的來簽名就好了啦這個細寒讓他來做就好了我給院長猜猜看那個細寒是誰"},{"start":142.11,"end":157.651,"text":"沈伯洋就是在嚇我啦我就坐在那邊,你看他一直叫我沈伯洋所以他就只發言了這177個字跟條文一點關係都沒有黃國昌講了106個字基本上就是我都講得很清楚了我沒有要補充的所以這就是當時逐條討論的現狀"},{"start":160.234,"end":185.466,"text":"今天他們把所有的字數加起來,包含院會的發言,包含程序的發言,包含質詢的文字,那些都不是真正在討論條文的時候。真正討論的條文是4月15號當天。所以我覺得作為立法委員,我們很可恥的地方是,作為這些條文的討論,我們幾乎是沒有發言的。然後發言的內容就像剛剛上面秀出來的狀況。但我覺得今天復議有點不一樣。"},{"start":186.286,"end":215.444,"text":"因為今天一個法案要不要覆議是重點在於說行政院可能覺得它至愛難行但是在整個過程當中行政院其實一定有機會說我認為這個法條有問題我認為這個法條至愛難行在平常的狀況法案可能都會有院版然後我們有我們的版本可能也有民間的版本大家一起來討論今天這個比較特別立法院的改革不可能會有院版所以行政院能夠做的就是在委員會在協商的時候來發表意見"},{"start":216.084,"end":244.361,"text":"所以我覺得這個條文有問題所以如果在這個過程新政院有發表意見的話今天來講這個覆議案可能這個legal ground可能就會有點問題但是呢我這邊就整理了齁在4月15號討論竹條當天鍾嘉斌委員就想說希望司法院副廳長法務部次長來說明主席說我覺得已經沒有這個必要了接下來吳思耀委員也希望列席的官員法務部等等的監察院都能夠來說明"},{"start":245.983,"end":257.492,"text":"中央嘉賓委員都逐字稿說希望法務部能夠表示意見,都被拒絕了。也就是行政院所有的人坐在那一邊,當天他們說我覺得這個條文有問題等等之類,院長知道他們講了幾次嗎?"},{"start":263.066,"end":290.566,"text":"答案是一次都沒有一次都沒有所以從頭到尾發言次數是零次因此行政院在這一個法案完全沒有辦法表達它的空間這一次花東三法的時候至少在協商的時候我還記得我們的韓院長至少也有請交通部長來表達意見甚至有說520之後新的交通部長再來表達意見這就是一個比較正常的程序但是我們在逐條的時候行政官員連表達意見的機會都沒有"},{"start":292.988,"end":320.612,"text":"講得比剛剛109次跟177次都還要來得更少更不要講說後來有進入到黨團朝野的協商當時的朝野協商本來已經開始討論條文了第15條15條之一一直開始往下討論結果呢正要讓說在座的行政官員是不是又能夠表達意見的時候呢到最後又沒了理由是因為黃國昌站起來離席了他一離席了黨團協商就沒有辦法繼續下去"},{"start":321.66,"end":336.81,"text":"所以從頭到尾我覺得覆議這件事情為什麼那麼的重要就是因為整個的程序裡面我們的行政官員沒有寡達意見的空間啊明明法務部可能認為這個法案有問題司法院可能認為這個法案有問題甚至程序都有問題都沒有發表的機會"},{"start":339.071,"end":361.873,"text":"所以我必須在這邊嚴正的聲明,就是前面雖然他們討論了很多復議、民意基礎等等之類的,單純就法論法來講,這個復議的提出是非常有正當理由的。不知道院長同不同意嗎?謝謝委員的說明,聽委員這樣子詳細的說明,我覺得更加的遺憾。在這麼重要的、事關到每一個國人都有可能面臨的案子的時候,"},{"start":362.273,"end":391.194,"text":"行政院竟然連一次發言的聲音機會都沒有所以我們一定要把握現在這個覆議案提出的機會好好的跟大院來討論我們也希望藉由這樣的一個溝通也讓國人知道讓其他的立法委員知道在明天投票的時候應該怎麼去投下他們的票那接下來我就要講到這因為今天除了我之外大概前面已經有四十幾位立法委員都發過言那他們的質詢內容讓我覺得非常的奇怪就是他們很習慣不知道跟誰學的都話講一半"},{"start":391.954,"end":410.153,"text":"那話都講一半的質詢其實是很難被回答的也就是說他永遠都只把其中條文的一部分拿出來講但整體到底是怎麼樣都不說所以我在這邊把話講一半的情形全部都列在我的簡報上面譬如說一直提藐視國會罪的刑罰但完全不提藐視國會罪對人民罰錢這一塊"},{"start":412.557,"end":437.079,"text":"一直說有通過民進黨的版本結果卻不說條文本身有互相的矛盾因為他們硬通過民進黨的版本一直提三場公聽會我相信院長一直聽到三場公聽會其實只有一場跟他們的法案有關係另外兩場完全無關那是民進黨版本的公聽會一直提發言紀錄卻不提質詢跟公聽會根本就不算是逐條的討論然後一直喜歡提民進黨散會"},{"start":438.259,"end":462.172,"text":"當問題出在民進黨提散會是為了要擋住4月15號不讓委員不讓官員發言的那一個過程然後一直提國會改革無法這可能是最搞笑的地方因為他們一直提無法但明明只有兩部法律那他們提的國會改革無法是民進黨版本提的國會改革的無法所以到現在我也不知道他們在講什麼一直在提這個國外有舉手表決卻不提人家是坐在位子上表決"},{"start":463.092,"end":484.008,"text":"一直說要查弊案結果卻沒有講說條文連弊案兩個字都找不到更不要講說立法院的職責不包含查弊案一直在提國會要調查卻沒有提到這是一個沒有邊界的調查一直在提說他的發動非常的嚴格卻沒有提他們留了一個後門委員會發動的條件非常的寬鬆"},{"start":485.109,"end":510.579,"text":"一直提說虛偽陳述很明確卻沒有講說虛偽陳述的範圍他們沒有界定一直說有律師的保障卻又不提這一個主席才可以決定能不能夠有律師一直在提證人可以拒絕回答卻沒有提他們法條忘記設計了告知義務今天早上又再提了47條卻不敢告訴國人本來的47條正當理由可以拒絕結果他們現在把這個刪掉了"},{"start":512.099,"end":539.449,"text":"所以太多了還一直提說我們過去提的國會改革卻不提我們通過了20項以上的國會改革最可怕的是一直拿美國法結果美國法的藐視國會第一個不包含資訊那天法務部長又回答道更不要講說美國的範圍非常的嚴格最重要的是我是在美國做過聽證的人在座的立法委員可能也只有我去美國做過聽證美國做聽證有分成邀請的跟強制的他也不告訴大家"},{"start":540.009,"end":557.009,"text":"所以有各式各樣的資訊不斷的隱瞞因此到最後連一直提到說行政院很多的單位也可以做調查卻沒有提到這些調查的單位他可能有一些考積﹑有陣風我們今天給立法委員那麼大的權力"},{"start":558.083,"end":587.002,"text":"但是立法委員卻沒有人去監督他如果立法委員沒有自律如果立法委員自己沒有節制的措施給他那麼大的權力會變得非常的可怕所以其實我們一直以來國會改革無法真正的無法是我們簡報上的這一些這一些國會改革無法確實有人提出就是民進黨自己我們目前無法已經提了四法的修正那個不知道院長知不知道這四法的修正現在躺在哪裡"},{"start":588.494,"end":615.983,"text":"請委員指教還躺在委員會為什麼會躺在委員會呢我們提到了一些機密就是你今天機密會議你要怎麼做你的洩密的時候該怎麼辦你今天自律的規範有哪些我們提了一堆這些法案目前呢在程序委員會總共被擋了16次然後呢在委員會被排出來5次都被傅坤祺還有羅志強提散會散了5次"},{"start":616.752,"end":616.772,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}}}}