{"id":154172,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154172","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb38ec27e9cbd4c2204c867c7a3ae89c54664f2be01c033e41abb4f772ab4ab96a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:28:15 - 11:43:53","影片長度":"00:15:38","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T11:28:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T11:43:53+08:00","duration":938,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時28分）謝謝主席，我想請卓院長，還有內政部劉部長。"],["主席：卓院長，還有劉部長，請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好！"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員好！"],["黃委員珊珊：部長好！院長好！我想今天很重要的是我看到了卓院長昨天針對新青安貸款開了一個內部的會議，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：您上任大概一個月左右的時間，新青安貸款其實從去年8月到現在，在我2月1日上任之後，就一直在問這件事情，但是我很遺憾當時不知道是不是因為看守內閣的關係，所以他們認為新青安貸款沒有任何問題，而且不影響房市，因為占的比例很小。院長，那你昨天為什麼要開會？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個、新青安貸款補貼的原意是非常好的，幫助年輕人、需要房屋的人……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，但是被用壞了，對吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：而且經過這段時間實行下來，房價的高漲絕非是單一的元素，這個我們都知道……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我同意。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們想如果能夠排除一些現在心理的作用，也許從某些角度來看，對政策的調整，可以了解……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我很讚賞你一上任就發現這個問題，這個問題在哪裡？因為我們來自民間，所以我大概簡單講，今年5月交易棟數達到2萬6,000多，而且這是十年來的新高，所以跟我說沒有催房市漲，這是不可能的！第二個，之前財政部說，因為它占的比例少，但是我現在要告訴你說，星星之火已經燎原，這個燎原的狀況其實非常的嚴重，為什麼？對於現在的年輕人，某個媒體下了一個註解，當政府一直打房，一直希望能夠搞居住正義，通過平均地權條例要打房，但是打不過，就加入它，讓年輕人買房子，就成為討好年輕人選票的方法。這不是我講的，是一個媒體給現在的政府下的註解。"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是這樣的立意，原始的立意不是這樣子。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，原來都不是，但是最後變成這樣，現在的狀況就是年輕人變成人頭。我們大概看到幾個問題，第一個，內政部、財政部、公股銀行他們的分工很清楚，內政部給錢，財政部訂辦法，交給公股銀行去貸，但是過程裡面沒有互相監控或者是互相瞭解對方的分工。我這邊要跟院長直接說，現在的問題就是，第一，有非常多的銀行用話術告訴貸新青安的年輕人，不用把租金交給房東，應該拿來買房子，因為五年的寬限期不需要繳本金，你的租金剛好付這個相關的利息，這個利息政府還幫你出了；第二個，政府不會讓房價跌，所以五年後寬限期過了，你要開始繳本金之後，你就可以賣房子，這是一個穩賺不賠的生意。院長，這已經不管是銀行業者、仲介業者，還有所有新的建商都在做一樣的事情。","第二個，最嚴重的問題是，這些年輕人他們知道這種狀況，但是還是繼續投下去，我們擔心，寬限期過了才是臺灣房市泡沫的開始，您覺得呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：部分在市場上的不動產專家也看到了諸如此類的問題，我已請各個部會……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我希望您開的會是真的有用啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請各個部會來提出一些他們現在的作為跟未來的精進，這個正在……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個是財政部跟公股銀行的事，我今天請部長上來就是發現一個很嚴重的問題，其實他們在貸款之前有要求這要自住，要自己住，所以有些銀行早就已經要求寫切結書，寫了切結書之後發現一個很嚴重的問題是，他沒有人力跟物力去稽核，沒有人力、物力去稽核也就算了，搞不好有些年輕人還把這個房子租出去，甚至還拿了租金補貼。我上次問財政部跟內政部的時候，他們說有可能，因為他們沒有勾稽。部長，你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶，有沒有跟新青安貸款做勾稽？開始做了沒？"],["劉部長世芳：我們在還沒有進行檢討機制之前，確實發現這個缺點，未來……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，他拿著租金補貼，還拿著新青安貸款！"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以我們未來要勾稽，勾稽出來的話，可能會把他踢出新青安貸款。"],["黃委員珊珊：這就是我2月份問的……"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：那時候發現這個問題，然後現在你們的方法是這樣，但是我現在看到比較好笑的事又來了，公股銀行說，我要開始讓他們寫切結。院長，你覺得切結有用嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：要看內容是什麼。"],["黃委員珊珊：切結就是說我保證我自住，我不是自住就怎樣怎樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：將來如果真正嚴重到需要訴諸法律的時候，在這個糾紛當中、訴訟當中，也許切結書是一個有效的依據。"],["黃委員珊珊：切結有效，現在就簽了，但是沒有人查，切結就是無效，所以剛剛部長說的勾稽很重要。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶，你還有包租代管戶，這些都是你可以直接勾稽的對象，所以財政部不要再跟我說，公股銀行寫了切結就沒事了，現在要開始做這件事。","第三個，這個問題就回到了我們現在是不是居住正義做一半？因為現在住宅法很清楚、很可愛，因為當時為了要讓大家變成公益出租人，所以跟大家說，我不會把你的租金補貼拿去做所得稅的稽核，但是現在至少可以做新青安的查核吧？可以吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是，可以。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，就是因為如此，所以我們的政府是不是姑息，或者是我們政府姑息大家，希望大家不要來報稅，所以房東現在都不報稅？大家在租房子的時候最痛苦的三件事，第一件，不准設戶口；第二件，不准報稅；第三件，不准去領租金補貼。劉部長，上次在委員會的時候，你也承認目前的困境就是如此，對吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是我們後來有做檢討改進，包括你所說的，不是只有租屋補貼，還有包括租賃業者……"],["黃委員珊珊：包租代管……"],["劉部長世芳：要找他們來商量，就是未來要把所謂的租金對外披露，至少資訊的揭露是個根本之道，需要先處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在要跟院長說的是，臺灣是一個很奇怪的地方，因為大家都希望有自己的房子，有了自己的房子後，就希望租出去當包租公，但不想繳稅，所以租屋黑市存在在臺灣已經幾十年了。目前為止在相關內政部的統計大概有98萬戶的承租人，總人口大概是260萬人，如果再加上26萬個學生在外面租房子上學的，其實全臺灣有將近300萬的租屋族，也就是租房子過日子的人，這300萬人中能夠申請到租金補貼的其實還只是少部分，我們有300萬人，可是只有51萬個租金補貼，顯然它的比例……"],["劉部長世芳：租金補貼還是有它必須要的申請要件。"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，但是我的意思是，很多人還是拿不到租金補貼，尤其是學生。"],["劉部長世芳：但是我們現在已經掌握到的，大概有50萬到60萬筆是屬於租金補貼的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我們有這麼多，51萬筆是租金補貼，有8萬戶是包租代管，這些有沒有做所謂的租屋實價登錄？"],["劉部長世芳：目前為止我們大概要用勾稽的方式來處理，所謂的實價登錄……"],["黃委員珊珊：對，所以還是一樣……"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員，我想你都知道，如果我們要做資訊揭露的話，還是要依照法令，否則會違反政府資訊公開法或是個人隱私法，所以我們在4月19日的時候已經邀集地方政府跟產業工會來召開這個會議，我們所根據的法源就是租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒關係，你要有法源，我們還可以再幫你加一條法源。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們已經有要增訂包租……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，你支不支持全面的租金實價登錄？"],["劉部長世芳：實價登錄當然是資訊透明化之一，但是要看對象，他的對象除了房東之外，還有包租代管業。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在只有仲介業實價登錄、只有包租業實價登錄，代管業目前還沒有，更不要說一般的房東了，對吧？"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是我們的房屋買賣實價登錄已經走了十年，院長，臺灣的租屋黑市還是占一大半的地方，有非常多的年輕人在臺北求學，他可能永遠都無法去申請，而且他可能只租幾年，這幾年就是現在大家看不到的地方，租屋是黑市，所以他就藏在陰影裡面，然後不准他報這個，不准他報那個，他也享受不到他所居住城市的社會福利，因為他永遠沒辦法入戶口。這個問題，我認為只要先把租屋實價登錄的制度慢慢的建立，我沒有要求你一下子建立，你租金補貼的對象可以拿來做實價登錄……"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們先把資訊透明化當成第一階段……"],["黃委員珊珊：代管業者也可以做實價登錄，接下來才是要求一般房東，將來如果實價登錄，我們給他什麼樣子的租稅赦免，也許是一個方式，我沒有定見，只是希望開始朝租屋實價登錄的方向邁進，部長可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：至少你上任之後，我相信你一定有這個野心。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝黃委員的關心，我剛剛有提到，先把資訊透明化做到，要有一定的法源基礎，我們會來努力……"],["黃委員珊珊：資料都在你手上，什麼法源至少能夠讓它攤開來……"],["劉部長世芳：雖然資料在我手上，但也不能隨便就把它披露出來。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以要立法。"],["劉部長世芳：一定要有法律。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要訂出相關的規範，我沒有意見，我的意思是，我希望一個月之內，針對您剛剛所說的方案，給我一個書面的回應好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：可不可以多給我們一點時間，因為一個月之內的話，院會還在開。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，兩個月，至少下個會期前我會再問你同樣的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：下個會期之前。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來，今天大家都很關心警消，我今天要問的是人力的問題。院長，我們都從地方來，大概都知道警消的業務很重，至今半年以來已經有8個警消殉職了，每一次發生事情，我們就開始檢討，但是我們檢討完畢之後，發現其實有很多、很多的問題，裝備也好，訓練也好，其實還有很大的問題是人力不足。這個人力不足，之前也做過非常多的檢討，然後地方政府每一次都說我人不夠、我人不夠，人為什麼不夠？各位可以看到，我們在107年就做了檢討，預計在112年服務人口數比要達到1比1,300，現在是113年了，請問部長，你達到了沒？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有達到。"],["黃委員珊珊：原因是什麼？我們在補足消防人力，尤其是專業人力上面速度比較慢。"],["劉部長世芳：速度太慢，不是比較慢，是很慢！因為1,300是一個基本標準，117年要到1,100，但是院長我現在要跟你直接說，從國際標準來看，這個還是差的、不行的，日本是1比760，韓國1比774，新加坡多一點、1比925，只有我們現在還在1,300！這個比例不要說其他城市，跟旁邊鄰近的先進國家相較，我們不應該輸給他們，加上現在少子化、高齡化，將來的消防更是重要、重中之重。從這個比例你也可以看出來，很特別，六都也很懸殊，不知道為什麼？大概只有臺北跟桃園是1,300多，其他縣市都是1,500以上，部長，什麼時候做得到？113年沒做到，你什麼時候要做到？"],["劉部長世芳：我覺得我沒有辦法馬上回應黃委員所說的部分，因為要補足專業的消防人力……"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道，所以你也希望至少一年之內1,300先到吧？"],["劉部長世芳：我們儘量朝這個方向來努力，因為必須經過考試資格才能成為真正的專業消防人力……"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道，這就是問題，我們是不是要在人力進用的過程中，再增加一些彈性，或者是再增加一些訓練的方式，讓他有人力補足的機會？"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員講得非常正確，我們已經跟考試院做過這方面的協商，未來在進用考試的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道這個考試蠻難考的，所以……"],["劉部長世芳：我們會加強這方面的訓練。"],["黃委員珊珊：其實很多人想考但考不上，可能要在進用人力的部分有更多方法。"],["劉部長世芳：對，對，他的到考率跟合格率不高。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我只要求你一年之內完成原來應該完成的1,300，但是現在看起來還是很困難。"],["劉部長世芳：我們儘量朝這個方向努力，我不想太誇大，但我們朝這個方向努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，這是你的任務啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，也感謝委員的提醒，我始終認為這是一個文明的指標，我會請內政部全力去做……"],["黃委員珊珊：我沒有要求你跟日本一樣700啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：全力去做，我們那天到新竹看罹難的警消，我們就提到考用制度必須要嚴格再做檢討，讓更多的人能夠投入。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！好，最後我要問一個問題，這大概也是我最重要的一個問題。院長你當過臺北市立委，對社子島應該比我還熟悉，最重要的是，我們已經在四年內完成非常多的程序，在短短四年，107年完成細部計畫、都市計畫跟相關的報部，甚至是二階段環評，但所謂的開發範圍跟抵價地比例，從109年6月送到中央內政部，到今天為止四年了，還沒有審。上個禮拜開過一次說明會，然後也有很多人來抗議，我都理解……"],["劉部長世芳：土徵小組的會議。"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是，部長，四年了，不能再拖了！其他的程序沒有人跑超過四年的，民國59年到現在限制開發，我58年次的，所以它已經54年了，多久？還要審多久？還要等多久？我只想問部長這個問題。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員的關心，我們上個禮拜開會的時候，有確實要求臺北市政府……"],["黃委員珊珊：臺北市政府已經溝通、溝通、再溝通，現在98%的民眾同意，剩下2%可能有意見，在你怎麼跟他溝通都沒有用的情況下，現在剔除的範圍都已經報部，也都說明了，部長，要溝通可以，但多少時間可以出來？"],["劉部長世芳：再給我們一點時間，譬如我也要拜訪臺北市長……"],["黃委員珊珊：我再問你一個問題，你會不會像林右昌一樣，又開始說我要弄輕軌、弄這個、弄那個，然後又耽誤了這個案子？"],["劉部長世芳：我瞭解都市計畫的審議程序，所以我要跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：你不會再像林右昌一樣，跑去跟人家講東講西，然後又不知道這個案子會不會繼續過？"],["劉部長世芳：到目前為止，我沒有講東講西啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：好，很好，我也希望你不要再講東講西。"],["劉部長世芳：我們再做一些好的溝通，再告訴你最後……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，那就跟我們再做一個回報，好嗎？謝謝！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓的貴賓是澳洲新南威爾斯州議會的代表團，我們在此掌聲歡迎。So we welcome our friends and guests, delegation from New South Wales Legislative Assembly . Welcome.","接下來，我們請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136301_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"154172","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154172","tool":"pyannote","id":"154172-pyannote"},"job_id":"t51PJWiusiM4PPjB","queued_at":"2024-06-25 12:29:45","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-25 12:29:45","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154172","target":null},{"time":"2024-06-25 12:29:46","msg":"downloading 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{\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 673.443, \"end\": 673.583, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 673.583, \"end\": 674.543, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 674.543, \"end\": 674.743, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 674.743, \"end\": 674.824, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 674.824, \"end\": 674.904, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 674.904, \"end\": 675.124, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 675.124, \"end\": 676.104, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 676.104, \"end\": 676.324, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 676.324, \"end\": 677.305, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 677.305, \"end\": 677.445, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 677.445, \"end\": 677.605, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 677.605, \"end\": 677.745, \"score\": 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\"end\": 690.304, \"text\": \"沒有達到。 沒有,原因是什麼?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 687.381, \"end\": 687.561, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 687.561, \"end\": 687.922, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 687.922, \"end\": 688.042, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 688.042, \"end\": 688.182, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 688.182, \"end\": 688.742, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 688.742, \"end\": 688.882, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 688.882, \"end\": 689.043, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 689.043, \"end\": 689.183, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 689.183, \"end\": 690.304, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 690.304, \"end\": 694.467, \"text\": \"我們在補足這個消防人力尤其是專業人力上面速度比較慢。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 690.304, \"end\": 690.564, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 690.564, \"end\": 691.404, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"足\", \"start\": 691.404, \"end\": 691.785, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"消\", \"start\": 691.785, \"end\": 692.005, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 692.005, \"end\": 692.205, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 692.205, \"end\": 692.365, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 692.365, \"end\": 692.525, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 692.525, \"end\": 692.645, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 692.645, \"end\": 692.745, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 692.745, \"end\": 693.206, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 693.206, \"end\": 693.366, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 693.366, \"end\": 693.506, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 693.506, \"end\": 693.706, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 693.706, \"end\": 693.906, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"速\", \"start\": 693.906, \"end\": 694.066, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 694.066, \"end\": 694.207, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 694.207, \"end\": 694.447, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"慢\", \"start\": 694.447, \"end\": 694.467, \"score\": 0.563}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 694.921, \"end\": 714.268, \"text\": \"速度太慢不是比較慢是很慢因為1300是一個基本的標準117年要到1100但是院長我現在要跟您直接說從國際的標準這個還是差的不行日本1比760韓國1比774新加坡多一點1比925只有我們現在還在1300\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"速\", \"start\": 694.921, \"end\": 695.121, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 695.121, \"end\": 695.321, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 695.321, \"end\": 695.561, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"慢\", \"start\": 695.561, \"end\": 695.961, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 695.961, \"end\": 696.061, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 696.061, 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{\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 700.643, \"end\": 701.903, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 701.903, \"end\": 702.063, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 702.063, \"end\": 702.244, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 702.244, \"end\": 703.164, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 703.164, \"end\": 703.324, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 703.324, \"end\": 703.464, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 703.464, \"end\": 703.764, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 703.764, \"end\": 704.024, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 704.024, \"end\": 704.124, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 704.124, \"end\": 704.244, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 704.244, \"end\": 704.364, 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{\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 710.486, \"end\": 711.066, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 711.066, \"end\": 711.267, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"韓\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 711.267, \"end\": 711.527, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 711.527, \"end\": 711.747, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 711.747, \"end\": 712.847, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"坡\", \"start\": 712.847, \"end\": 713.107, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 713.107, \"end\": 713.547, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 713.547, \"end\": 713.707, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 713.707, \"end\": 713.907, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 713.907, 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00:01:35,405\n但是我們想說如果能夠排除一些現在心理的作用那也許從某些角度來看對政治的調整可以了解。所以院長我很讚賞你一上任就發現這個問題那這個問題在哪裡因為我們來自民間所以我大概簡單講今年5月交易動數達到2萬6千多而且這是10年來的新高所以跟我說沒有跟房市\n\n5\n00:01:37,901 --> 00:02:04,082\n吹房市長這是不可能的。．第二個之前財政部說因為他佔的比例少但是我現在要告訴你說星星之火已經燎原這個燎原的狀況其實非常的嚴重為什麼現在的年輕人天下應該是某個媒體下了一個註解當政府一直打房一直希望能夠搞居住正義通過平均地點條例要打房但是打不過就加入他\n\n6\n00:02:05,246 --> 00:02:28,549\n讓年輕人買房子就成為討好年輕人的選票的方法。這不是我講的是一個媒體給現在的政府下的主張。是,原來都不是,但是最後變成這樣。現在的狀況就是,年輕人變成人頭。我們大概看到的幾個問題,第一個,內政部,財政部,公益股銀行,他們的分工很清楚。內政部\n\n7\n00:02:29,417 --> 00:02:33,621\n我這邊要跟院長直接說現在的問題就是新青安的年輕人第一他有非常多的銀行的話術告訴他不用把租金交給\n\n8\n00:02:53,277 --> 00:02:53,517\n黃珊珊．\n\n9\n00:03:13,806 --> 00:03:39,844\n院長這已經是不管是銀行業者重建業者還有所有的新的建商都在做一樣的事情第二個最嚴重的問題是這些年輕人他們知道這種狀況但是還是繼續投下去我們擔心寬卸期過了才是臺灣房市泡沫的開始您覺得呢部分在市場上的一些\n\n10\n00:03:41,102 --> 00:04:00,497\n不動產的專家也看到了諸如此類的問題,讓我們一起各個部會來提出一些他們現在的作為跟未來的經濟,那這個是財政部跟公股銀行的事,我今天請部長上來,就是發現一個很嚴重的問題,其實他們貸款之前要求這個要自主,\n\n11\n00:04:01,055 --> 00:04:04,398\n我上次問財政部跟內政部的時候﹖他們說有可能因為他們沒有勾結\n\n12\n00:04:28,479 --> 00:04:55,269\n部長你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶有沒有跟新清安貸款做勾結開始做了沒?我們在還沒有進行檢討機制之前確實發現這個缺點是!他拿著租金補貼還拿著新清安貸款是!所以我們為了要勾結勾結出來的話可能會把他踢出新清安貸款這就是我二月份問的事情謝謝委員那時候發現這個問題然後現在你們的方法是這樣但是我現在看到比較好笑的是又來了\n\n13\n00:04:56,449 --> 00:05:01,210\n宮古宇航說我要開始讓他們寫切結。院長你覺得切結有用嗎?\n\n14\n00:05:01,210 --> 00:05:02,290\n內容是什麼?\n\n15\n00:05:02,290 --> 00:05:17,394\n切結就是說我保證我自助。我不是自助我就怎樣怎樣。將來可以避免在如果真正嚴重到需要進行法律的時候在這個糾紛當中訴訟當中也許切結出是一個有效的依據。切結有效現在就簽了但是沒有人查。切結就是無效。\n\n16\n00:05:18,234 --> 00:05:41,001\n所以剛剛部長說的,勾結很重要。第二個,你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶,你還有包租代管戶,這些都是你可以直接勾結的對象。所以財政部不要再跟我說,工股銀行寫的切結就沒事了。現在要開始做這件事。第三個,這個問題就在於我們回到了我們現在是不是居住正義做一半。\n\n17\n00:05:42,165 --> 00:06:09,101\n因為我們現在住宅法很清楚很可愛說因為當時為了要讓大家變成公益出租人所以讓大家你的齁租金補貼我不會把你拿去做所得稅的集合但是現在至少可以做新清安的查核吧﹖是﹖可以吧﹖可以第二個就是因為如此所以我們的政府是不是姑息或者是我們政府姑息大家希望大家不要來報稅所以房東現在都不報稅\n\n18\n00:06:11,263 --> 00:06:21,464\n大家在租房子的時候最痛苦的三件事第一件,不准設戶口第二件,不准報稅第三件,不准去領租金補貼\n\n19\n00:06:22,895 --> 00:06:44,523\n劉副部長我上次在委員會的時候你也承認目前的困境就是如此對吧是但是我們後來有做一下檢討改進包括你所說的不是只有租屋補貼還有包括包租包租代管的業者他們我要找他來商量是就是說未來要把他所謂的租金對外披露至少資訊的揭露的話是可以根本知道需要先處理\n\n20\n00:06:45,123 --> 00:06:58,279\n我現在要跟院長說的就是臺灣是一個很奇怪的地方因為我們大家都希望有自己的房子有了自己的房子租出去就希望當包租公但不想繳稅所以房租黑市存在在臺灣已經幾十年\n\n21\n00:07:00,969 --> 00:07:22,144\n這個狀況我們目前為止在相關內政部的統計我們大概是有98萬戶的成租人大概總人口大概是260萬人如果再加上26萬個學生在外面租房子上學的其實我們全臺灣有將近300萬的租屋族也就是租房子過日子的人這300萬人他們能夠\n\n22\n00:07:26,391 --> 00:07:42,430\n所謂申請到租金補貼的其實還是只是少部分如果沒有300萬人可是我們只有51萬個租金補貼現在它的比例條件我同意但是我的意思是說很多人還是拿不到租金補貼尤其是學生\n\n23\n00:07:43,168 --> 00:07:49,694\n但是我們現在已經掌握到了大概有50萬到60萬筆是屬於租金補貼的部分。是,我們有這麼多,51萬筆是租金補貼,有8萬戶是包租代管,這些有沒有做所謂的租屋實價登錄?\n\n24\n00:07:59,229 --> 00:08:25,791\n目前為主我們大概會要用勾結的方式來處理。（對所以還是一樣（黃委員我想你都知道如果我們要做資訊揭露的話我們還是要依照法令上否則會違反政府資訊公開法或是個人隱私法所以我們現在在4月19號的時候已經邀集地方政府跟產業工會來召開這個會議那我們所根據的法源就是所謂的租賃市場市場租賃住宅市場發展（沒關係你要有法源還可以再幫你加一條法源\n\n25\n00:08:26,411 --> 00:08:55,409\n是,我們已經有這個,要增訂包租﹖部長我的意思是,你不支持全面的租金實價登錄﹖實價登錄它當然是一個資訊透明化之一﹖但是要看對象﹖它的對象除了我們所有的房東之外﹖現在只有仲介業實價登錄﹖現在只有包租業實價登錄﹖代管業目前還沒有﹖更不要說一般的房東了,對吧﹖對﹖但是我們的房屋買賣實價登錄已經走了10年了,院長﹖\n\n26\n00:08:57,513 --> 00:09:14,873\n臺灣是租屋黑市還是佔一大半的地方有非常多的年輕人在臺北求學他可能永遠不可能去申請而且他可能只租了幾年這幾年就是我們現在大家看不到的地方租屋是黑市所以他就藏在陰影裡面\n\n27\n00:09:15,819 --> 00:09:15,959\n：黃珊珊\n\n28\n00:09:43,103 --> 00:10:05,658\n防東將來如果實價登錄我們給他什麼樣子的租稅的赦免也許是一個方式我沒有定見我希望開始朝租屋實價登錄的方向邁進部長可以吧至少你上任之後我相信你一定有這個野心是謝謝黃委員的關心我剛有提到先把資訊透明化是把它做到那一定要有一定的法源資料都在你手上\n\n29\n00:10:06,378 --> 00:10:29,998\n怎麼法院讓他能夠至少看一看（資料在我手上不能隨便就把它披露出來（是,所以要立法（一定要有法律（所以要訂出相關的規範（我沒有意見（我的意思是說我希望一個月之內（針對這些您剛剛所說的方案（也可以給我一個書面的回應好不好（可不可以多給我們一點時間（因為一個月之內的話我們院會還不開（好,兩個月至少下個會期前我會再問同樣的問題（下個會期之前（好不好\n\n30\n00:10:30,638 --> 00:10:37,625\n（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n31\n00:10:50,168 --> 00:11:17,805\n每一次發生事情我們就開始檢討。但是我們檢討完畢之後發現其實有很多很多的問題裝備也好訓練也好那其實還有很大的問題是人力不足這個人力不足目前為止之前也做過非常多的檢討然後地方政府每一次都說我人不夠我人不夠人為什麼不夠各位可以看到我們在107年就做了一個檢討\n\n32\n00:11:19,315 --> 00:11:27,381\n我們在112年要達到一比一千三,現在是113年,請問部長你達到了沒?\n\n33\n00:11:27,381 --> 00:11:30,304\n沒有達到。沒有,原因是什麼?\n\n34\n00:11:30,304 --> 00:11:34,467\n我們在補足這個消防人力尤其是專業人力上面速度比較慢。\n\n35\n00:11:34,921 --> 00:11:54,268\n速度太慢不是比較慢是很慢因為1300是一個基本的標準117年要到1100但是院長我現在要跟您直接說從國際的標準這個還是差的不行日本1比760韓國1比774新加坡多一點1比925只有我們現在還在1300\n\n36\n00:12:02,274 --> 00:12:29,745\n這個比例不要說我們跟其他的城市﹐旁邊鄰近的先進國家﹐我們不應該輸給他﹐加上我們少子化﹐高齡化﹐將來的消防更是重要﹐重中之重﹐所以這個比例你可以看得出來﹐很特別﹐這個六都也很懸殊﹐不知道為什麼﹐大概只有臺北跟桃園還在1300多﹐其他都是1500以上﹐部長﹐什麼時候做得到﹐\n\n37\n00:12:31,646 --> 00:12:34,068\n113年沒做到,你什麼時候要做到?\n\n38\n00:12:34,068 --> 00:12:43,778\n我覺得我沒有辦法馬上回應黃委員所說的部分,因為我們要補足這個專業的消防人力。我知道,所以我們希望能夠盡量在至少一年之內,一千三先到吧。\n\n39\n00:12:45,370 --> 00:13:06,861\n我們盡量朝這個方向來努力,因為他必須要經過考試資格才能成為真正的專業消防人力。我知道,這就是問題是,我們是不是要在人力禁用的過程中再增加一些彈性,或者是再增加一些訓練的方式,讓他有人力補足的機會。黃委員講得非常正確,我們已經跟考試院做過這方面的協商,未來再進行考試的時候,我們會加強,會加強這方面的訓練。\n\n40\n00:13:11,323 --> 00:13:11,343\n謝謝委員\n\n41\n00:13:28,335 --> 00:13:49,322\n感謝我的提醒,我始終認為這是一個文明的指標,我會請內政部全力去做,全力去做,我們那天到新竹看罹難的這個警消,我們就跟他講說考用制度必須要嚴格的再做一個檢討,讓更多的人能夠投入。最後我要問這個問題,這個大概也是我最重要的一個問題。\n\n42\n00:13:50,779 --> 00:14:19,198\n院長你當過臺北市的立委﹖你對社子島應該還比我還熟悉那最重要的是我們已經在4年內完成了非常多的程序短短4年107年我們完成了西部計畫、都市計畫跟相關的報部甚至二階段環評但是所謂的開發範圍跟底價地的比例從109年6月送到中央內政部到今天為止4年了還沒審上個禮拜開過一次\n\n43\n00:14:20,487 --> 00:14:42,857\n說明會,然後也有很多人來抗議,我都領寫,我的意思是說部長,四年了不能再拖了,其他的程序沒有人超過跑四年,民國59年到現在限制開發,我58年次,所以它已經54年了,多久?還要等多久?還要等多久?我只想問部長這個問題。\n\n44\n00:14:43,800 --> 00:15:02,297\n好,謝謝委員的關心,我們上個禮拜開會的時候確實的要求臺北市政府啊,臺北市政府已經溝通溝通再溝通,現在98%的民眾同意,剩下2%可能有意見,你怎麼跟他溝通都沒有用的情況下,但是剔除的範圍也都已經跟報部也都說明了。\n\n45\n00:15:03,188 --> 00:15:25,323\n部長我希望要溝通可以多少時間,再給我們一點時間,像譬如說我也要拜訪臺北市長,我再問你一個,你會不會像林佑昌一樣,又開始說我要弄輕軌弄這個弄那個,然後把這個案子耽誤?我了解都市計畫的審議程序,所以我要跟國會報告。所以你不會再像林佑昌說又跑去跟人家講東講西,然後又不知道這個案子會不會繼續過嗎?到目前為止我沒有講東講西啊。\n\n46\n00:15:35,674 --> 00:15:35,694\n謝謝黃委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5615\t31878\t現在主席我想請卓院長還有內政部劉部長卓院長還有劉部長請備詢黃委員好部長好跟院長好我想今天很重要的是我想我看到了卓院長昨天針對新清安貸款開了一個內部的會議是嗎是的\n33206\t54534\t您上任大概一個月左右的時間,親親安貸款其實從去年8月到現在,他在我2月1號上任之後就一直在問這件事情。但是我很遺憾,當時不知道是不是因為看守內閣的關係,所以他們認為說親親安貸款沒有任何問題,而且不影響房市,因為佔的比例很小。院長,那你昨天為什麼要開會?\n55759\t55839\t是,我同意。\n73390\t95405\t但是我們想說如果能夠排除一些現在心理的作用那也許從某些角度來看對政治的調整可以了解。 所以院長我很讚賞你一上任就發現這個問題那這個問題在哪裡因為我們來自民間所以我大概簡單講今年5月交易動數達到2萬6千多而且這是10年來的新高所以跟我說沒有跟房市\n97901\t124082\t吹房市長這是不可能的。．第二個之前財政部說因為他佔的比例少但是我現在要告訴你說星星之火已經燎原這個燎原的狀況其實非常的嚴重為什麼現在的年輕人天下應該是某個媒體下了一個註解當政府一直打房一直希望能夠搞居住正義通過平均地點條例要打房但是打不過就加入他\n125246\t148549\t讓年輕人買房子就成為討好年輕人的選票的方法。 這不是我講的是一個媒體給現在的政府下的主張。 是,原來都不是,但是最後變成這樣。 現在的狀況就是,年輕人變成人頭。 我們大概看到的幾個問題,第一個,內政部,財政部,公益股銀行,他們的分工很清楚。 內政部\n149417\t153621\t我這邊要跟院長直接說現在的問題就是新青安的年輕人第一他有非常多的銀行的話術告訴他不用把租金交給\n173277\t173517\t黃珊珊．\n193806\t219844\t院長這已經是不管是銀行業者重建業者還有所有的新的建商都在做一樣的事情第二個最嚴重的問題是這些年輕人他們知道這種狀況但是還是繼續投下去我們擔心寬卸期過了才是臺灣房市泡沫的開始您覺得呢部分在市場上的一些\n221102\t240497\t不動產的專家也看到了諸如此類的問題,讓我們一起各個部會來提出一些他們現在的作為跟未來的經濟,那這個是財政部跟公股銀行的事,我今天請部長上來,就是發現一個很嚴重的問題,其實他們貸款之前要求這個要自主,\n241055\t244398\t我上次問財政部跟內政部的時候﹖他們說有可能因為他們沒有勾結\n268479\t295269\t部長你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶有沒有跟新清安貸款做勾結開始做了沒?我們在還沒有進行檢討機制之前確實發現這個缺點是!他拿著租金補貼還拿著新清安貸款是!所以我們為了要勾結勾結出來的話可能會把他踢出新清安貸款這就是我二月份問的事情謝謝委員那時候發現這個問題然後現在你們的方法是這樣但是我現在看到比較好笑的是又來了\n296449\t301210\t宮古宇航說我要開始讓他們寫切結。 院長你覺得切結有用嗎?\n301210\t302290\t內容是什麼?\n302290\t317394\t切結就是說我保證我自助。 我不是自助我就怎樣怎樣。 將來可以避免在如果真正嚴重到需要進行法律的時候在這個糾紛當中訴訟當中也許切結出是一個有效的依據。 切結有效現在就簽了但是沒有人查。 切結就是無效。\n318234\t341001\t所以剛剛部長說的,勾結很重要。第二個,你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶,你還有包租代管戶,這些都是你可以直接勾結的對象。所以財政部不要再跟我說,工股銀行寫的切結就沒事了。現在要開始做這件事。第三個,這個問題就在於我們回到了我們現在是不是居住正義做一半。\n342165\t369101\t因為我們現在住宅法很清楚很可愛說因為當時為了要讓大家變成公益出租人所以讓大家你的齁租金補貼我不會把你拿去做所得稅的集合但是現在至少可以做新清安的查核吧﹖是﹖可以吧﹖可以第二個就是因為如此所以我們的政府是不是姑息或者是我們政府姑息大家希望大家不要來報稅所以房東現在都不報稅\n371263\t381464\t大家在租房子的時候最痛苦的三件事第一件,不准設戶口第二件,不准報稅第三件,不准去領租金補貼\n382895\t404523\t劉副部長我上次在委員會的時候你也承認目前的困境就是如此對吧是但是我們後來有做一下檢討改進包括你所說的不是只有租屋補貼還有包括包租包租代管的業者他們我要找他來商量是就是說未來要把他所謂的租金對外披露至少資訊的揭露的話是可以根本知道需要先處理\n405123\t418279\t我現在要跟院長說的就是臺灣是一個很奇怪的地方因為我們大家都希望有自己的房子有了自己的房子租出去就希望當包租公但不想繳稅所以房租黑市存在在臺灣已經幾十年\n420969\t442144\t這個狀況我們目前為止在相關內政部的統計我們大概是有98萬戶的成租人大概總人口大概是260萬人如果再加上26萬個學生在外面租房子上學的其實我們全臺灣有將近300萬的租屋族也就是租房子過日子的人這300萬人他們能夠\n446391\t462430\t所謂申請到租金補貼的其實還是只是少部分如果沒有300萬人可是我們只有51萬個租金補貼現在它的比例條件我同意但是我的意思是說很多人還是拿不到租金補貼尤其是學生\n463168\t469694\t但是我們現在已經掌握到了大概有50萬到60萬筆是屬於租金補貼的部分。 是,我們有這麼多,51萬筆是租金補貼,有8萬戶是包租代管,這些有沒有做所謂的租屋實價登錄?\n479229\t505791\t目前為主我們大概會要用勾結的方式來處理。（對所以還是一樣（黃委員我想你都知道如果我們要做資訊揭露的話我們還是要依照法令上否則會違反政府資訊公開法或是個人隱私法所以我們現在在4月19號的時候已經邀集地方政府跟產業工會來召開這個會議那我們所根據的法源就是所謂的租賃市場市場租賃住宅市場發展（沒關係你要有法源還可以再幫你加一條法源\n506411\t535409\t是,我們已經有這個,要增訂包租﹖部長我的意思是,你不支持全面的租金實價登錄﹖實價登錄它當然是一個資訊透明化之一﹖但是要看對象﹖它的對象除了我們所有的房東之外﹖現在只有仲介業實價登錄﹖現在只有包租業實價登錄﹖代管業目前還沒有﹖更不要說一般的房東了,對吧﹖對﹖但是我們的房屋買賣實價登錄已經走了10年了,院長﹖\n537513\t554873\t臺灣是租屋黑市還是佔一大半的地方有非常多的年輕人在臺北求學他可能永遠不可能去申請而且他可能只租了幾年這幾年就是我們現在大家看不到的地方租屋是黑市所以他就藏在陰影裡面\n555819\t555959\t：黃珊珊\n583103\t605658\t防東將來如果實價登錄我們給他什麼樣子的租稅的赦免也許是一個方式我沒有定見我希望開始朝租屋實價登錄的方向邁進部長可以吧至少你上任之後我相信你一定有這個野心是謝謝黃委員的關心我剛有提到先把資訊透明化是把它做到那一定要有一定的法源資料都在你手上\n606378\t629998\t怎麼法院讓他能夠至少看一看（資料在我手上不能隨便就把它披露出來（是,所以要立法（一定要有法律（所以要訂出相關的規範（我沒有意見（我的意思是說我希望一個月之內（針對這些您剛剛所說的方案（也可以給我一個書面的回應好不好（可不可以多給我們一點時間（因為一個月之內的話我們院會還不開（好,兩個月至少下個會期前我會再問同樣的問題（下個會期之前（好不好\n630638\t637625\t（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n650168\t677805\t每一次發生事情我們就開始檢討。但是我們檢討完畢之後發現其實有很多很多的問題裝備也好訓練也好那其實還有很大的問題是人力不足這個人力不足目前為止之前也做過非常多的檢討然後地方政府每一次都說我人不夠我人不夠人為什麼不夠各位可以看到我們在107年就做了一個檢討\n679315\t687381\t我們在112年要達到一比一千三,現在是113年,請問部長你達到了沒?\n687381\t690304\t沒有達到。 沒有,原因是什麼?\n690304\t694467\t我們在補足這個消防人力尤其是專業人力上面速度比較慢。\n694921\t714268\t速度太慢不是比較慢是很慢因為1300是一個基本的標準117年要到1100但是院長我現在要跟您直接說從國際的標準這個還是差的不行日本1比760韓國1比774新加坡多一點1比925只有我們現在還在1300\n722274\t749745\t這個比例不要說我們跟其他的城市﹐旁邊鄰近的先進國家﹐我們不應該輸給他﹐加上我們少子化﹐高齡化﹐將來的消防更是重要﹐重中之重﹐所以這個比例你可以看得出來﹐很特別﹐這個六都也很懸殊﹐不知道為什麼﹐大概只有臺北跟桃園還在1300多﹐其他都是1500以上﹐部長﹐什麼時候做得到﹐\n751646\t754068\t113年沒做到,你什麼時候要做到?\n754068\t763778\t我覺得我沒有辦法馬上回應黃委員所說的部分,因為我們要補足這個專業的消防人力。 我知道,所以我們希望能夠盡量在至少一年之內,一千三先到吧。\n765370\t786861\t我們盡量朝這個方向來努力,因為他必須要經過考試資格才能成為真正的專業消防人力。 我知道,這就是問題是,我們是不是要在人力禁用的過程中再增加一些彈性,或者是再增加一些訓練的方式,讓他有人力補足的機會。黃委員講得非常正確,我們已經跟考試院做過這方面的協商,未來再進行考試的時候,我們會加強,會加強這方面的訓練。\n791323\t791343\t謝謝委員\n808335\t829322\t感謝我的提醒,我始終認為這是一個文明的指標,我會請內政部全力去做,全力去做,我們那天到新竹看罹難的這個警消,我們就跟他講說考用制度必須要嚴格的再做一個檢討,讓更多的人能夠投入。最後我要問這個問題,這個大概也是我最重要的一個問題。\n830779\t859198\t院長你當過臺北市的立委﹖你對社子島應該還比我還熟悉那最重要的是我們已經在4年內完成了非常多的程序短短4年107年我們完成了西部計畫、都市計畫跟相關的報部甚至二階段環評但是所謂的開發範圍跟底價地的比例從109年6月送到中央內政部到今天為止4年了還沒審上個禮拜開過一次\n860487\t882857\t說明會,然後也有很多人來抗議,我都領寫,我的意思是說部長,四年了不能再拖了,其他的程序沒有人超過跑四年,民國59年到現在限制開發,我58年次,所以它已經54年了,多久?還要等多久?還要等多久?我只想問部長這個問題。\n883800\t902297\t好,謝謝委員的關心,我們上個禮拜開會的時候確實的要求臺北市政府啊,臺北市政府已經溝通溝通再溝通,現在98%的民眾同意,剩下2%可能有意見,你怎麼跟他溝通都沒有用的情況下,但是剔除的範圍也都已經跟報部也都說明了。\n903188\t925323\t部長我希望要溝通可以多少時間,再給我們一點時間,像譬如說我也要拜訪臺北市長,我再問你一個,你會不會像林佑昌一樣,又開始說我要弄輕軌弄這個弄那個,然後把這個案子耽誤?我了解都市計畫的審議程序,所以我要跟國會報告。所以你不會再像林佑昌說又跑去跟人家講東講西,然後又不知道這個案子會不會繼續過嗎?到目前為止我沒有講東講西啊。\n935674\t935694\t謝謝黃委員\n","txt":"現在主席我想請卓院長還有內政部劉部長卓院長還有劉部長請備詢黃委員好部長好跟院長好我想今天很重要的是我想我看到了卓院長昨天針對新清安貸款開了一個內部的會議是嗎是的\n您上任大概一個月左右的時間,親親安貸款其實從去年8月到現在,他在我2月1號上任之後就一直在問這件事情。但是我很遺憾,當時不知道是不是因為看守內閣的關係,所以他們認為說親親安貸款沒有任何問題,而且不影響房市,因為佔的比例很小。院長,那你昨天為什麼要開會?\n是,我同意。\n但是我們想說如果能夠排除一些現在心理的作用那也許從某些角度來看對政治的調整可以了解。 所以院長我很讚賞你一上任就發現這個問題那這個問題在哪裡因為我們來自民間所以我大概簡單講今年5月交易動數達到2萬6千多而且這是10年來的新高所以跟我說沒有跟房市\n吹房市長這是不可能的。．第二個之前財政部說因為他佔的比例少但是我現在要告訴你說星星之火已經燎原這個燎原的狀況其實非常的嚴重為什麼現在的年輕人天下應該是某個媒體下了一個註解當政府一直打房一直希望能夠搞居住正義通過平均地點條例要打房但是打不過就加入他\n讓年輕人買房子就成為討好年輕人的選票的方法。 這不是我講的是一個媒體給現在的政府下的主張。 是,原來都不是,但是最後變成這樣。 現在的狀況就是,年輕人變成人頭。 我們大概看到的幾個問題,第一個,內政部,財政部,公益股銀行,他們的分工很清楚。 內政部\n我這邊要跟院長直接說現在的問題就是新青安的年輕人第一他有非常多的銀行的話術告訴他不用把租金交給\n黃珊珊．\n院長這已經是不管是銀行業者重建業者還有所有的新的建商都在做一樣的事情第二個最嚴重的問題是這些年輕人他們知道這種狀況但是還是繼續投下去我們擔心寬卸期過了才是臺灣房市泡沫的開始您覺得呢部分在市場上的一些\n不動產的專家也看到了諸如此類的問題,讓我們一起各個部會來提出一些他們現在的作為跟未來的經濟,那這個是財政部跟公股銀行的事,我今天請部長上來,就是發現一個很嚴重的問題,其實他們貸款之前要求這個要自主,\n我上次問財政部跟內政部的時候﹖他們說有可能因為他們沒有勾結\n部長你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶有沒有跟新清安貸款做勾結開始做了沒?我們在還沒有進行檢討機制之前確實發現這個缺點是!他拿著租金補貼還拿著新清安貸款是!所以我們為了要勾結勾結出來的話可能會把他踢出新清安貸款這就是我二月份問的事情謝謝委員那時候發現這個問題然後現在你們的方法是這樣但是我現在看到比較好笑的是又來了\n宮古宇航說我要開始讓他們寫切結。 院長你覺得切結有用嗎?\n內容是什麼?\n切結就是說我保證我自助。 我不是自助我就怎樣怎樣。 將來可以避免在如果真正嚴重到需要進行法律的時候在這個糾紛當中訴訟當中也許切結出是一個有效的依據。 切結有效現在就簽了但是沒有人查。 切結就是無效。\n所以剛剛部長說的,勾結很重要。第二個,你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶,你還有包租代管戶,這些都是你可以直接勾結的對象。所以財政部不要再跟我說,工股銀行寫的切結就沒事了。現在要開始做這件事。第三個,這個問題就在於我們回到了我們現在是不是居住正義做一半。\n因為我們現在住宅法很清楚很可愛說因為當時為了要讓大家變成公益出租人所以讓大家你的齁租金補貼我不會把你拿去做所得稅的集合但是現在至少可以做新清安的查核吧﹖是﹖可以吧﹖可以第二個就是因為如此所以我們的政府是不是姑息或者是我們政府姑息大家希望大家不要來報稅所以房東現在都不報稅\n大家在租房子的時候最痛苦的三件事第一件,不准設戶口第二件,不准報稅第三件,不准去領租金補貼\n劉副部長我上次在委員會的時候你也承認目前的困境就是如此對吧是但是我們後來有做一下檢討改進包括你所說的不是只有租屋補貼還有包括包租包租代管的業者他們我要找他來商量是就是說未來要把他所謂的租金對外披露至少資訊的揭露的話是可以根本知道需要先處理\n我現在要跟院長說的就是臺灣是一個很奇怪的地方因為我們大家都希望有自己的房子有了自己的房子租出去就希望當包租公但不想繳稅所以房租黑市存在在臺灣已經幾十年\n這個狀況我們目前為止在相關內政部的統計我們大概是有98萬戶的成租人大概總人口大概是260萬人如果再加上26萬個學生在外面租房子上學的其實我們全臺灣有將近300萬的租屋族也就是租房子過日子的人這300萬人他們能夠\n所謂申請到租金補貼的其實還是只是少部分如果沒有300萬人可是我們只有51萬個租金補貼現在它的比例條件我同意但是我的意思是說很多人還是拿不到租金補貼尤其是學生\n但是我們現在已經掌握到了大概有50萬到60萬筆是屬於租金補貼的部分。 是,我們有這麼多,51萬筆是租金補貼,有8萬戶是包租代管,這些有沒有做所謂的租屋實價登錄?\n目前為主我們大概會要用勾結的方式來處理。（對所以還是一樣（黃委員我想你都知道如果我們要做資訊揭露的話我們還是要依照法令上否則會違反政府資訊公開法或是個人隱私法所以我們現在在4月19號的時候已經邀集地方政府跟產業工會來召開這個會議那我們所根據的法源就是所謂的租賃市場市場租賃住宅市場發展（沒關係你要有法源還可以再幫你加一條法源\n是,我們已經有這個,要增訂包租﹖部長我的意思是,你不支持全面的租金實價登錄﹖實價登錄它當然是一個資訊透明化之一﹖但是要看對象﹖它的對象除了我們所有的房東之外﹖現在只有仲介業實價登錄﹖現在只有包租業實價登錄﹖代管業目前還沒有﹖更不要說一般的房東了,對吧﹖對﹖但是我們的房屋買賣實價登錄已經走了10年了,院長﹖\n臺灣是租屋黑市還是佔一大半的地方有非常多的年輕人在臺北求學他可能永遠不可能去申請而且他可能只租了幾年這幾年就是我們現在大家看不到的地方租屋是黑市所以他就藏在陰影裡面\n：黃珊珊\n防東將來如果實價登錄我們給他什麼樣子的租稅的赦免也許是一個方式我沒有定見我希望開始朝租屋實價登錄的方向邁進部長可以吧至少你上任之後我相信你一定有這個野心是謝謝黃委員的關心我剛有提到先把資訊透明化是把它做到那一定要有一定的法源資料都在你手上\n怎麼法院讓他能夠至少看一看（資料在我手上不能隨便就把它披露出來（是,所以要立法（一定要有法律（所以要訂出相關的規範（我沒有意見（我的意思是說我希望一個月之內（針對這些您剛剛所說的方案（也可以給我一個書面的回應好不好（可不可以多給我們一點時間（因為一個月之內的話我們院會還不開（好,兩個月至少下個會期前我會再問同樣的問題（下個會期之前（好不好\n（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n每一次發生事情我們就開始檢討。但是我們檢討完畢之後發現其實有很多很多的問題裝備也好訓練也好那其實還有很大的問題是人力不足這個人力不足目前為止之前也做過非常多的檢討然後地方政府每一次都說我人不夠我人不夠人為什麼不夠各位可以看到我們在107年就做了一個檢討\n我們在112年要達到一比一千三,現在是113年,請問部長你達到了沒?\n沒有達到。 沒有,原因是什麼?\n我們在補足這個消防人力尤其是專業人力上面速度比較慢。\n速度太慢不是比較慢是很慢因為1300是一個基本的標準117年要到1100但是院長我現在要跟您直接說從國際的標準這個還是差的不行日本1比760韓國1比774新加坡多一點1比925只有我們現在還在1300\n這個比例不要說我們跟其他的城市﹐旁邊鄰近的先進國家﹐我們不應該輸給他﹐加上我們少子化﹐高齡化﹐將來的消防更是重要﹐重中之重﹐所以這個比例你可以看得出來﹐很特別﹐這個六都也很懸殊﹐不知道為什麼﹐大概只有臺北跟桃園還在1300多﹐其他都是1500以上﹐部長﹐什麼時候做得到﹐\n113年沒做到,你什麼時候要做到?\n我覺得我沒有辦法馬上回應黃委員所說的部分,因為我們要補足這個專業的消防人力。 我知道,所以我們希望能夠盡量在至少一年之內,一千三先到吧。\n我們盡量朝這個方向來努力,因為他必須要經過考試資格才能成為真正的專業消防人力。 我知道,這就是問題是,我們是不是要在人力禁用的過程中再增加一些彈性,或者是再增加一些訓練的方式,讓他有人力補足的機會。黃委員講得非常正確,我們已經跟考試院做過這方面的協商,未來再進行考試的時候,我們會加強,會加強這方面的訓練。\n謝謝委員\n感謝我的提醒,我始終認為這是一個文明的指標,我會請內政部全力去做,全力去做,我們那天到新竹看罹難的這個警消,我們就跟他講說考用制度必須要嚴格的再做一個檢討,讓更多的人能夠投入。最後我要問這個問題,這個大概也是我最重要的一個問題。\n院長你當過臺北市的立委﹖你對社子島應該還比我還熟悉那最重要的是我們已經在4年內完成了非常多的程序短短4年107年我們完成了西部計畫、都市計畫跟相關的報部甚至二階段環評但是所謂的開發範圍跟底價地的比例從109年6月送到中央內政部到今天為止4年了還沒審上個禮拜開過一次\n說明會,然後也有很多人來抗議,我都領寫,我的意思是說部長,四年了不能再拖了,其他的程序沒有人超過跑四年,民國59年到現在限制開發,我58年次,所以它已經54年了,多久?還要等多久?還要等多久?我只想問部長這個問題。\n好,謝謝委員的關心,我們上個禮拜開會的時候確實的要求臺北市政府啊,臺北市政府已經溝通溝通再溝通,現在98%的民眾同意,剩下2%可能有意見,你怎麼跟他溝通都沒有用的情況下,但是剔除的範圍也都已經跟報部也都說明了。\n部長我希望要溝通可以多少時間,再給我們一點時間,像譬如說我也要拜訪臺北市長,我再問你一個,你會不會像林佑昌一樣,又開始說我要弄輕軌弄這個弄那個,然後把這個案子耽誤?我了解都市計畫的審議程序,所以我要跟國會報告。所以你不會再像林佑昌說又跑去跟人家講東講西,然後又不知道這個案子會不會繼續過嗎?到目前為止我沒有講東講西啊。\n謝謝黃委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.615 --> 00:31.878\n現在主席我想請卓院長還有內政部劉部長卓院長還有劉部長請備詢黃委員好部長好跟院長好我想今天很重要的是我想我看到了卓院長昨天針對新清安貸款開了一個內部的會議是嗎是的\n\n00:33.206 --> 00:54.534\n您上任大概一個月左右的時間,親親安貸款其實從去年8月到現在,他在我2月1號上任之後就一直在問這件事情。但是我很遺憾,當時不知道是不是因為看守內閣的關係,所以他們認為說親親安貸款沒有任何問題,而且不影響房市,因為佔的比例很小。院長,那你昨天為什麼要開會?\n\n00:55.759 --> 00:55.839\n是,我同意。\n\n01:13.390 --> 01:35.405\n但是我們想說如果能夠排除一些現在心理的作用那也許從某些角度來看對政治的調整可以了解。所以院長我很讚賞你一上任就發現這個問題那這個問題在哪裡因為我們來自民間所以我大概簡單講今年5月交易動數達到2萬6千多而且這是10年來的新高所以跟我說沒有跟房市\n\n01:37.901 --> 02:04.082\n吹房市長這是不可能的。．第二個之前財政部說因為他佔的比例少但是我現在要告訴你說星星之火已經燎原這個燎原的狀況其實非常的嚴重為什麼現在的年輕人天下應該是某個媒體下了一個註解當政府一直打房一直希望能夠搞居住正義通過平均地點條例要打房但是打不過就加入他\n\n02:05.246 --> 02:28.549\n讓年輕人買房子就成為討好年輕人的選票的方法。這不是我講的是一個媒體給現在的政府下的主張。是,原來都不是,但是最後變成這樣。現在的狀況就是,年輕人變成人頭。我們大概看到的幾個問題,第一個,內政部,財政部,公益股銀行,他們的分工很清楚。內政部\n\n02:29.417 --> 02:33.621\n我這邊要跟院長直接說現在的問題就是新青安的年輕人第一他有非常多的銀行的話術告訴他不用把租金交給\n\n02:53.277 --> 02:53.517\n黃珊珊．\n\n03:13.806 --> 03:39.844\n院長這已經是不管是銀行業者重建業者還有所有的新的建商都在做一樣的事情第二個最嚴重的問題是這些年輕人他們知道這種狀況但是還是繼續投下去我們擔心寬卸期過了才是臺灣房市泡沫的開始您覺得呢部分在市場上的一些\n\n03:41.102 --> 04:00.497\n不動產的專家也看到了諸如此類的問題,讓我們一起各個部會來提出一些他們現在的作為跟未來的經濟,那這個是財政部跟公股銀行的事,我今天請部長上來,就是發現一個很嚴重的問題,其實他們貸款之前要求這個要自主,\n\n04:01.055 --> 04:04.398\n我上次問財政部跟內政部的時候﹖他們說有可能因為他們沒有勾結\n\n04:28.479 --> 04:55.269\n部長你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶有沒有跟新清安貸款做勾結開始做了沒?我們在還沒有進行檢討機制之前確實發現這個缺點是!他拿著租金補貼還拿著新清安貸款是!所以我們為了要勾結勾結出來的話可能會把他踢出新清安貸款這就是我二月份問的事情謝謝委員那時候發現這個問題然後現在你們的方法是這樣但是我現在看到比較好笑的是又來了\n\n04:56.449 --> 05:01.210\n宮古宇航說我要開始讓他們寫切結。院長你覺得切結有用嗎?\n\n05:01.210 --> 05:02.290\n內容是什麼?\n\n05:02.290 --> 05:17.394\n切結就是說我保證我自助。我不是自助我就怎樣怎樣。將來可以避免在如果真正嚴重到需要進行法律的時候在這個糾紛當中訴訟當中也許切結出是一個有效的依據。切結有效現在就簽了但是沒有人查。切結就是無效。\n\n05:18.234 --> 05:41.001\n所以剛剛部長說的,勾結很重要。第二個,你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶,你還有包租代管戶,這些都是你可以直接勾結的對象。所以財政部不要再跟我說,工股銀行寫的切結就沒事了。現在要開始做這件事。第三個,這個問題就在於我們回到了我們現在是不是居住正義做一半。\n\n05:42.165 --> 06:09.101\n因為我們現在住宅法很清楚很可愛說因為當時為了要讓大家變成公益出租人所以讓大家你的齁租金補貼我不會把你拿去做所得稅的集合但是現在至少可以做新清安的查核吧﹖是﹖可以吧﹖可以第二個就是因為如此所以我們的政府是不是姑息或者是我們政府姑息大家希望大家不要來報稅所以房東現在都不報稅\n\n06:11.263 --> 06:21.464\n大家在租房子的時候最痛苦的三件事第一件,不准設戶口第二件,不准報稅第三件,不准去領租金補貼\n\n06:22.895 --> 06:44.523\n劉副部長我上次在委員會的時候你也承認目前的困境就是如此對吧是但是我們後來有做一下檢討改進包括你所說的不是只有租屋補貼還有包括包租包租代管的業者他們我要找他來商量是就是說未來要把他所謂的租金對外披露至少資訊的揭露的話是可以根本知道需要先處理\n\n06:45.123 --> 06:58.279\n我現在要跟院長說的就是臺灣是一個很奇怪的地方因為我們大家都希望有自己的房子有了自己的房子租出去就希望當包租公但不想繳稅所以房租黑市存在在臺灣已經幾十年\n\n07:00.969 --> 07:22.144\n這個狀況我們目前為止在相關內政部的統計我們大概是有98萬戶的成租人大概總人口大概是260萬人如果再加上26萬個學生在外面租房子上學的其實我們全臺灣有將近300萬的租屋族也就是租房子過日子的人這300萬人他們能夠\n\n07:26.391 --> 07:42.430\n所謂申請到租金補貼的其實還是只是少部分如果沒有300萬人可是我們只有51萬個租金補貼現在它的比例條件我同意但是我的意思是說很多人還是拿不到租金補貼尤其是學生\n\n07:43.168 --> 07:49.694\n但是我們現在已經掌握到了大概有50萬到60萬筆是屬於租金補貼的部分。是,我們有這麼多,51萬筆是租金補貼,有8萬戶是包租代管,這些有沒有做所謂的租屋實價登錄?\n\n07:59.229 --> 08:25.791\n目前為主我們大概會要用勾結的方式來處理。（對所以還是一樣（黃委員我想你都知道如果我們要做資訊揭露的話我們還是要依照法令上否則會違反政府資訊公開法或是個人隱私法所以我們現在在4月19號的時候已經邀集地方政府跟產業工會來召開這個會議那我們所根據的法源就是所謂的租賃市場市場租賃住宅市場發展（沒關係你要有法源還可以再幫你加一條法源\n\n08:26.411 --> 08:55.409\n是,我們已經有這個,要增訂包租﹖部長我的意思是,你不支持全面的租金實價登錄﹖實價登錄它當然是一個資訊透明化之一﹖但是要看對象﹖它的對象除了我們所有的房東之外﹖現在只有仲介業實價登錄﹖現在只有包租業實價登錄﹖代管業目前還沒有﹖更不要說一般的房東了,對吧﹖對﹖但是我們的房屋買賣實價登錄已經走了10年了,院長﹖\n\n08:57.513 --> 09:14.873\n臺灣是租屋黑市還是佔一大半的地方有非常多的年輕人在臺北求學他可能永遠不可能去申請而且他可能只租了幾年這幾年就是我們現在大家看不到的地方租屋是黑市所以他就藏在陰影裡面\n\n09:15.819 --> 09:15.959\n：黃珊珊\n\n09:43.103 --> 10:05.658\n防東將來如果實價登錄我們給他什麼樣子的租稅的赦免也許是一個方式我沒有定見我希望開始朝租屋實價登錄的方向邁進部長可以吧至少你上任之後我相信你一定有這個野心是謝謝黃委員的關心我剛有提到先把資訊透明化是把它做到那一定要有一定的法源資料都在你手上\n\n10:06.378 --> 10:29.998\n怎麼法院讓他能夠至少看一看（資料在我手上不能隨便就把它披露出來（是,所以要立法（一定要有法律（所以要訂出相關的規範（我沒有意見（我的意思是說我希望一個月之內（針對這些您剛剛所說的方案（也可以給我一個書面的回應好不好（可不可以多給我們一點時間（因為一個月之內的話我們院會還不開（好,兩個月至少下個會期前我會再問同樣的問題（下個會期之前（好不好\n\n10:30.638 --> 10:37.625\n（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。\n\n10:50.168 --> 11:17.805\n每一次發生事情我們就開始檢討。但是我們檢討完畢之後發現其實有很多很多的問題裝備也好訓練也好那其實還有很大的問題是人力不足這個人力不足目前為止之前也做過非常多的檢討然後地方政府每一次都說我人不夠我人不夠人為什麼不夠各位可以看到我們在107年就做了一個檢討\n\n11:19.315 --> 11:27.381\n我們在112年要達到一比一千三,現在是113年,請問部長你達到了沒?\n\n11:27.381 --> 11:30.304\n沒有達到。沒有,原因是什麼?\n\n11:30.304 --> 11:34.467\n我們在補足這個消防人力尤其是專業人力上面速度比較慢。\n\n11:34.921 --> 11:54.268\n速度太慢不是比較慢是很慢因為1300是一個基本的標準117年要到1100但是院長我現在要跟您直接說從國際的標準這個還是差的不行日本1比760韓國1比774新加坡多一點1比925只有我們現在還在1300\n\n12:02.274 --> 12:29.745\n這個比例不要說我們跟其他的城市﹐旁邊鄰近的先進國家﹐我們不應該輸給他﹐加上我們少子化﹐高齡化﹐將來的消防更是重要﹐重中之重﹐所以這個比例你可以看得出來﹐很特別﹐這個六都也很懸殊﹐不知道為什麼﹐大概只有臺北跟桃園還在1300多﹐其他都是1500以上﹐部長﹐什麼時候做得到﹐\n\n12:31.646 --> 12:34.068\n113年沒做到,你什麼時候要做到?\n\n12:34.068 --> 12:43.778\n我覺得我沒有辦法馬上回應黃委員所說的部分,因為我們要補足這個專業的消防人力。我知道,所以我們希望能夠盡量在至少一年之內,一千三先到吧。\n\n12:45.370 --> 13:06.861\n我們盡量朝這個方向來努力,因為他必須要經過考試資格才能成為真正的專業消防人力。我知道,這就是問題是,我們是不是要在人力禁用的過程中再增加一些彈性,或者是再增加一些訓練的方式,讓他有人力補足的機會。黃委員講得非常正確,我們已經跟考試院做過這方面的協商,未來再進行考試的時候,我們會加強,會加強這方面的訓練。\n\n13:11.323 --> 13:11.343\n謝謝委員\n\n13:28.335 --> 13:49.322\n感謝我的提醒,我始終認為這是一個文明的指標,我會請內政部全力去做,全力去做,我們那天到新竹看罹難的這個警消,我們就跟他講說考用制度必須要嚴格的再做一個檢討,讓更多的人能夠投入。最後我要問這個問題,這個大概也是我最重要的一個問題。\n\n13:50.779 --> 14:19.198\n院長你當過臺北市的立委﹖你對社子島應該還比我還熟悉那最重要的是我們已經在4年內完成了非常多的程序短短4年107年我們完成了西部計畫、都市計畫跟相關的報部甚至二階段環評但是所謂的開發範圍跟底價地的比例從109年6月送到中央內政部到今天為止4年了還沒審上個禮拜開過一次\n\n14:20.487 --> 14:42.857\n說明會,然後也有很多人來抗議,我都領寫,我的意思是說部長,四年了不能再拖了,其他的程序沒有人超過跑四年,民國59年到現在限制開發,我58年次,所以它已經54年了,多久?還要等多久?還要等多久?我只想問部長這個問題。\n\n14:43.800 --> 15:02.297\n好,謝謝委員的關心,我們上個禮拜開會的時候確實的要求臺北市政府啊,臺北市政府已經溝通溝通再溝通,現在98%的民眾同意,剩下2%可能有意見,你怎麼跟他溝通都沒有用的情況下,但是剔除的範圍也都已經跟報部也都說明了。\n\n15:03.188 --> 15:25.323\n部長我希望要溝通可以多少時間,再給我們一點時間,像譬如說我也要拜訪臺北市長,我再問你一個,你會不會像林佑昌一樣,又開始說我要弄輕軌弄這個弄那個,然後把這個案子耽誤?我了解都市計畫的審議程序,所以我要跟國會報告。所以你不會再像林佑昌說又跑去跟人家講東講西,然後又不知道這個案子會不會繼續過嗎?到目前為止我沒有講東講西啊。\n\n15:35.674 --> 15:35.694\n謝謝黃委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.615,"end":31.878,"text":"現在主席我想請卓院長還有內政部劉部長卓院長還有劉部長請備詢黃委員好部長好跟院長好我想今天很重要的是我想我看到了卓院長昨天針對新清安貸款開了一個內部的會議是嗎是的"},{"start":33.206,"end":54.534,"text":"您上任大概一個月左右的時間,親親安貸款其實從去年8月到現在,他在我2月1號上任之後就一直在問這件事情。但是我很遺憾,當時不知道是不是因為看守內閣的關係,所以他們認為說親親安貸款沒有任何問題,而且不影響房市,因為佔的比例很小。院長,那你昨天為什麼要開會?"},{"start":55.759,"end":55.839,"text":"是,我同意。"},{"start":73.39,"end":95.405,"text":"但是我們想說如果能夠排除一些現在心理的作用那也許從某些角度來看對政治的調整可以了解。 所以院長我很讚賞你一上任就發現這個問題那這個問題在哪裡因為我們來自民間所以我大概簡單講今年5月交易動數達到2萬6千多而且這是10年來的新高所以跟我說沒有跟房市"},{"start":97.901,"end":124.082,"text":"吹房市長這是不可能的。．第二個之前財政部說因為他佔的比例少但是我現在要告訴你說星星之火已經燎原這個燎原的狀況其實非常的嚴重為什麼現在的年輕人天下應該是某個媒體下了一個註解當政府一直打房一直希望能夠搞居住正義通過平均地點條例要打房但是打不過就加入他"},{"start":125.246,"end":148.549,"text":"讓年輕人買房子就成為討好年輕人的選票的方法。 這不是我講的是一個媒體給現在的政府下的主張。 是,原來都不是,但是最後變成這樣。 現在的狀況就是,年輕人變成人頭。 我們大概看到的幾個問題,第一個,內政部,財政部,公益股銀行,他們的分工很清楚。 內政部"},{"start":149.417,"end":153.621,"text":"我這邊要跟院長直接說現在的問題就是新青安的年輕人第一他有非常多的銀行的話術告訴他不用把租金交給"},{"start":173.277,"end":173.517,"text":"黃珊珊．"},{"start":193.806,"end":219.844,"text":"院長這已經是不管是銀行業者重建業者還有所有的新的建商都在做一樣的事情第二個最嚴重的問題是這些年輕人他們知道這種狀況但是還是繼續投下去我們擔心寬卸期過了才是臺灣房市泡沫的開始您覺得呢部分在市場上的一些"},{"start":221.102,"end":240.497,"text":"不動產的專家也看到了諸如此類的問題,讓我們一起各個部會來提出一些他們現在的作為跟未來的經濟,那這個是財政部跟公股銀行的事,我今天請部長上來,就是發現一個很嚴重的問題,其實他們貸款之前要求這個要自主,"},{"start":241.055,"end":244.398,"text":"我上次問財政部跟內政部的時候﹖他們說有可能因為他們沒有勾結"},{"start":268.479,"end":295.269,"text":"部長你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶有沒有跟新清安貸款做勾結開始做了沒?我們在還沒有進行檢討機制之前確實發現這個缺點是!他拿著租金補貼還拿著新清安貸款是!所以我們為了要勾結勾結出來的話可能會把他踢出新清安貸款這就是我二月份問的事情謝謝委員那時候發現這個問題然後現在你們的方法是這樣但是我現在看到比較好笑的是又來了"},{"start":296.449,"end":301.21,"text":"宮古宇航說我要開始讓他們寫切結。 院長你覺得切結有用嗎?"},{"start":301.21,"end":302.29,"text":"內容是什麼?"},{"start":302.29,"end":317.394,"text":"切結就是說我保證我自助。 我不是自助我就怎樣怎樣。 將來可以避免在如果真正嚴重到需要進行法律的時候在這個糾紛當中訴訟當中也許切結出是一個有效的依據。 切結有效現在就簽了但是沒有人查。 切結就是無效。"},{"start":318.234,"end":341.001,"text":"所以剛剛部長說的,勾結很重要。第二個,你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶,你還有包租代管戶,這些都是你可以直接勾結的對象。所以財政部不要再跟我說,工股銀行寫的切結就沒事了。現在要開始做這件事。第三個,這個問題就在於我們回到了我們現在是不是居住正義做一半。"},{"start":342.165,"end":369.101,"text":"因為我們現在住宅法很清楚很可愛說因為當時為了要讓大家變成公益出租人所以讓大家你的齁租金補貼我不會把你拿去做所得稅的集合但是現在至少可以做新清安的查核吧﹖是﹖可以吧﹖可以第二個就是因為如此所以我們的政府是不是姑息或者是我們政府姑息大家希望大家不要來報稅所以房東現在都不報稅"},{"start":371.263,"end":381.464,"text":"大家在租房子的時候最痛苦的三件事第一件,不准設戶口第二件,不准報稅第三件,不准去領租金補貼"},{"start":382.895,"end":404.523,"text":"劉副部長我上次在委員會的時候你也承認目前的困境就是如此對吧是但是我們後來有做一下檢討改進包括你所說的不是只有租屋補貼還有包括包租包租代管的業者他們我要找他來商量是就是說未來要把他所謂的租金對外披露至少資訊的揭露的話是可以根本知道需要先處理"},{"start":405.123,"end":418.279,"text":"我現在要跟院長說的就是臺灣是一個很奇怪的地方因為我們大家都希望有自己的房子有了自己的房子租出去就希望當包租公但不想繳稅所以房租黑市存在在臺灣已經幾十年"},{"start":420.969,"end":442.144,"text":"這個狀況我們目前為止在相關內政部的統計我們大概是有98萬戶的成租人大概總人口大概是260萬人如果再加上26萬個學生在外面租房子上學的其實我們全臺灣有將近300萬的租屋族也就是租房子過日子的人這300萬人他們能夠"},{"start":446.391,"end":462.43,"text":"所謂申請到租金補貼的其實還是只是少部分如果沒有300萬人可是我們只有51萬個租金補貼現在它的比例條件我同意但是我的意思是說很多人還是拿不到租金補貼尤其是學生"},{"start":463.168,"end":469.694,"text":"但是我們現在已經掌握到了大概有50萬到60萬筆是屬於租金補貼的部分。 是,我們有這麼多,51萬筆是租金補貼,有8萬戶是包租代管,這些有沒有做所謂的租屋實價登錄?"},{"start":479.229,"end":505.791,"text":"目前為主我們大概會要用勾結的方式來處理。（對所以還是一樣（黃委員我想你都知道如果我們要做資訊揭露的話我們還是要依照法令上否則會違反政府資訊公開法或是個人隱私法所以我們現在在4月19號的時候已經邀集地方政府跟產業工會來召開這個會議那我們所根據的法源就是所謂的租賃市場市場租賃住宅市場發展（沒關係你要有法源還可以再幫你加一條法源"},{"start":506.411,"end":535.409,"text":"是,我們已經有這個,要增訂包租﹖部長我的意思是,你不支持全面的租金實價登錄﹖實價登錄它當然是一個資訊透明化之一﹖但是要看對象﹖它的對象除了我們所有的房東之外﹖現在只有仲介業實價登錄﹖現在只有包租業實價登錄﹖代管業目前還沒有﹖更不要說一般的房東了,對吧﹖對﹖但是我們的房屋買賣實價登錄已經走了10年了,院長﹖"},{"start":537.513,"end":554.873,"text":"臺灣是租屋黑市還是佔一大半的地方有非常多的年輕人在臺北求學他可能永遠不可能去申請而且他可能只租了幾年這幾年就是我們現在大家看不到的地方租屋是黑市所以他就藏在陰影裡面"},{"start":555.819,"end":555.959,"text":"：黃珊珊"},{"start":583.103,"end":605.658,"text":"防東將來如果實價登錄我們給他什麼樣子的租稅的赦免也許是一個方式我沒有定見我希望開始朝租屋實價登錄的方向邁進部長可以吧至少你上任之後我相信你一定有這個野心是謝謝黃委員的關心我剛有提到先把資訊透明化是把它做到那一定要有一定的法源資料都在你手上"},{"start":606.378,"end":629.998,"text":"怎麼法院讓他能夠至少看一看（資料在我手上不能隨便就把它披露出來（是,所以要立法（一定要有法律（所以要訂出相關的規範（我沒有意見（我的意思是說我希望一個月之內（針對這些您剛剛所說的方案（也可以給我一個書面的回應好不好（可不可以多給我們一點時間（因為一個月之內的話我們院會還不開（好,兩個月至少下個會期前我會再問同樣的問題（下個會期之前（好不好"},{"start":630.638,"end":637.625,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":650.168,"end":677.805,"text":"每一次發生事情我們就開始檢討。但是我們檢討完畢之後發現其實有很多很多的問題裝備也好訓練也好那其實還有很大的問題是人力不足這個人力不足目前為止之前也做過非常多的檢討然後地方政府每一次都說我人不夠我人不夠人為什麼不夠各位可以看到我們在107年就做了一個檢討"},{"start":679.315,"end":687.381,"text":"我們在112年要達到一比一千三,現在是113年,請問部長你達到了沒?"},{"start":687.381,"end":690.304,"text":"沒有達到。 沒有,原因是什麼?"},{"start":690.304,"end":694.467,"text":"我們在補足這個消防人力尤其是專業人力上面速度比較慢。"},{"start":694.921,"end":714.268,"text":"速度太慢不是比較慢是很慢因為1300是一個基本的標準117年要到1100但是院長我現在要跟您直接說從國際的標準這個還是差的不行日本1比760韓國1比774新加坡多一點1比925只有我們現在還在1300"},{"start":722.274,"end":749.745,"text":"這個比例不要說我們跟其他的城市﹐旁邊鄰近的先進國家﹐我們不應該輸給他﹐加上我們少子化﹐高齡化﹐將來的消防更是重要﹐重中之重﹐所以這個比例你可以看得出來﹐很特別﹐這個六都也很懸殊﹐不知道為什麼﹐大概只有臺北跟桃園還在1300多﹐其他都是1500以上﹐部長﹐什麼時候做得到﹐"},{"start":751.646,"end":754.068,"text":"113年沒做到,你什麼時候要做到?"},{"start":754.068,"end":763.778,"text":"我覺得我沒有辦法馬上回應黃委員所說的部分,因為我們要補足這個專業的消防人力。 我知道,所以我們希望能夠盡量在至少一年之內,一千三先到吧。"},{"start":765.37,"end":786.861,"text":"我們盡量朝這個方向來努力,因為他必須要經過考試資格才能成為真正的專業消防人力。 我知道,這就是問題是,我們是不是要在人力禁用的過程中再增加一些彈性,或者是再增加一些訓練的方式,讓他有人力補足的機會。黃委員講得非常正確,我們已經跟考試院做過這方面的協商,未來再進行考試的時候,我們會加強,會加強這方面的訓練。"},{"start":791.323,"end":791.343,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":808.335,"end":829.322,"text":"感謝我的提醒,我始終認為這是一個文明的指標,我會請內政部全力去做,全力去做,我們那天到新竹看罹難的這個警消,我們就跟他講說考用制度必須要嚴格的再做一個檢討,讓更多的人能夠投入。最後我要問這個問題,這個大概也是我最重要的一個問題。"},{"start":830.779,"end":859.198,"text":"院長你當過臺北市的立委﹖你對社子島應該還比我還熟悉那最重要的是我們已經在4年內完成了非常多的程序短短4年107年我們完成了西部計畫、都市計畫跟相關的報部甚至二階段環評但是所謂的開發範圍跟底價地的比例從109年6月送到中央內政部到今天為止4年了還沒審上個禮拜開過一次"},{"start":860.487,"end":882.857,"text":"說明會,然後也有很多人來抗議,我都領寫,我的意思是說部長,四年了不能再拖了,其他的程序沒有人超過跑四年,民國59年到現在限制開發,我58年次,所以它已經54年了,多久?還要等多久?還要等多久?我只想問部長這個問題。"},{"start":883.8,"end":902.297,"text":"好,謝謝委員的關心,我們上個禮拜開會的時候確實的要求臺北市政府啊,臺北市政府已經溝通溝通再溝通,現在98%的民眾同意,剩下2%可能有意見,你怎麼跟他溝通都沒有用的情況下,但是剔除的範圍也都已經跟報部也都說明了。"},{"start":903.188,"end":925.323,"text":"部長我希望要溝通可以多少時間,再給我們一點時間,像譬如說我也要拜訪臺北市長,我再問你一個,你會不會像林佑昌一樣,又開始說我要弄輕軌弄這個弄那個,然後把這個案子耽誤?我了解都市計畫的審議程序,所以我要跟國會報告。所以你不會再像林佑昌說又跑去跟人家講東講西,然後又不知道這個案子會不會繼續過嗎?到目前為止我沒有講東講西啊。"},{"start":935.674,"end":935.694,"text":"謝謝黃委員"}]}}}}