{"id":154235,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154235","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1934dde6f1ed83ba5b086792d04172957ee23585586e40b3aba0e2b9540d275255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:24:18 - 10:34:31","影片長度":"00:10:13","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:24:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:34:31+08:00","duration":613,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":491,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時24分）請何部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好。我們今天在討論臺灣跟印度簽了關於勞務移工的MOU，當然應該是基於臺灣跟印度兩國這幾年越來越……我想包括互相對待的友善及信任的增加所簽署的，但確實這段時間這個MOU引起了社會很多的討論，我認為其中一個很大的原因是，雖然我們兩國的政府有頻繁的互動，但整體臺灣社會其實對於印度真的不是非常熟悉，所以容易會有很多的投射或者是誤會。這次引進印度，各界的聲音我想確實非常多，但我自己認為，這恐怕已經不只是印度移工的問題，而是我們臺灣社會在引進外籍勞工的這條路上，其實跟過去真的已經不一樣了，我認為已經到另一個階段，也就是社會各界都希望政府能夠在這個引進外籍勞工的過程裡面，恐怕必須要承擔起更多基礎設施的建立，也包括承擔起更多的責任。","這次引發這麼多討論，有一個很根本的原因，我認為就是過去政府對移工引進責任的承擔真的太少了，所以大部分的壓力都落在雇主身上，尤其是弱勢的雇主，如果沒有辦法承擔的話，他就把承擔的責任希望轉移到仲介身上，尤其是管理的責任到仲介身上，那如果仲介沒有處理好，或者是想要壓低成本，各種手段就可能在社會上會造成各種大家不樂見的亂象。這也是為什麼後來社會對於整體移工的觀感，包括出現一些歧視，或者是一些既定觀感，我覺得一個原因在這個地方。所以某部分，在這裡面其實是一個層層轉嫁的結構，但源頭，我不知道部長同不同意，確實我們在聘僱移工過程，尤其引進移工過程裡面，過去政府的把關跟承擔確實是不夠的。"],["何部長佩珊：有檢討的空間啦！"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，我其實知道這一次在我們簽訂的MOU的第八條裡面，是關於直接聘僱的部分。條文的內容，當然包括現有招募制度、雙方同意推動「直接聘僱計畫」等等，這是第一次把直聘的部分寫進條文裡，但就我所知，過去其實臺灣尤其是勞發署，曾經也推動過相關一些直聘計畫。我想問，這次印度移工的直聘，跟過去的直聘，不一樣的地方在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你也知道現在我們的直聘其實效能並不是很好啦！"],["洪委員申翰：不彰。"],["何部長佩珊：國內目前，對。當然也是大院委員一直關切的問題嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["何部長佩珊：在國內直聘的經驗還沒有很精進之前，也就是說這次臺印MOU裡面的這個直聘，它必須是一個全新的嘗試啦！它的直聘不是我們傳統你現在看到國內的這種直聘方式，它要有創新的作法。"],["洪委員申翰：我會覺得國內現在的直聘，真的不太像是一個功能完整的直聘。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["洪委員申翰：對，但是不同在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：那個不同在於我們有沒有能力，未來這個要評估的，比如我們有沒有辦法像韓國這樣，到對方來源國去設點、直接去選工，然後在那裡就直接像韓國那樣跟企業、跟政府，大家密切合作，然後一起來進行這樣子。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我當然認為……"],["何部長佩珊：這是要評估的。"],["洪委員申翰：其實每一個國家可能都有情境上的不同啦！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["洪委員申翰：所以你很難完全把另外一個國家的經驗完全抄襲，可是我覺得參考跟分析是必要的。就像部長剛才講到的韓國，其實我們如果對韓國的直聘進行一些分析，把韓國直聘裡面幾個重要的元素拆解出來的時候，我們大概發現幾件事情，臺灣跟韓國政府目前在規劃上面我們大概少了兩件事情。第一個事情，就是我表格裡面提到的，它有一個所謂的僱用許可制專用資訊系統，一般來說叫做SPAS，下面一個就是透過SPAS去做選工，這反而是現在韓國直聘系統跟過去臺灣規劃差別比較大的地方。","我們現在先做這樣子的分析，我們看到勞發署在這次勞動部報告裡面有提到直接聘僱印度勞工資訊系統，我想問這是不是韓國政府的這個SPAS？我想先問這件事情。"],["何部長佩珊：你說我們現在規劃的……"],["洪委員申翰：對，我看到你們報告裡面有寫「直接聘僱印度勞工資訊系統」，你們有寫你們要規劃做這件事情。"],["何部長佩珊：嘗試啦！嘗試！"],["洪委員申翰：那是不是SPAS？"],["何部長佩珊：類似，對，是類似。"],["洪委員申翰：是參考是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：參考啦！"],["洪委員申翰：我之前也有跟蔡署長討論過這個事情，確實過去在引進泰國移工的時候，我們有嘗試想要用過這個SPAS，但當時其實並沒有成功，原因是因為有很多配套沒有處理好。我們有很多政府基本的服務沒有提供，最後變成雇主又要回去找仲介，或者覺得仲介這軌比較有競爭力。我想要問部長，這一次假設我們設定目標需要做的話，就把這件事情做好、做成功，做成一個有競爭力直聘的這一軌，應該沒有問題吧？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們現在包括臺菲或是跟印尼，也有類似這樣子直聘MOU的要求。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你這樣講我就擔心了，我們這次確實是希望跟過去4國，過去4國當然有一定發展的軌跡，可是這一次印度的MOU，這是一個新的機會，尤其是如果我們一開始要做小規模的試辦……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["洪委員申翰：所以在這小規模的試辦裡面，我們可以比過去更沒有包袱的來去做一些嘗試。"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們要來創新跟處理。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我剛剛說，其實過去也有嘗試過直聘，可是它的功能不彰，我們也有嘗試過SPAS的系統，可是因為配套不足，我認為如果這次……包括勞動部的報告裡面，MOU第八條裡面就寫我們要把直聘給做好，我覺得我們就應該下定決心，把它做成一個有競爭力的直聘，而不是又再像過去一樣變成有點雞肋的狀況。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，當然。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我自己是希望可不可以在兩個月內，把你們接下來如何能夠汲取過去直聘不太成功的經驗下改變的作法……"],["何部長佩珊：我們來做一個檢討好嗎？"],["洪委員申翰：把最重要改變的原則跟架構能夠提供給我們，我覺得這件事情不應該閉門造車，這事情是可以跟社會各界，包括移工團體，包括雇主團體，或者是怎麼樣設計出一個好用而有競爭力的直聘，來增加政府在聘僱移工過程能夠承擔的責任，或者一般人家講「G to G」，我覺得參考其他國家經驗，這是一定必要的，重點是我們要把這個經驗給磨出來，而不要再重蹈過去的覆轍，部長，這沒有問題吧？"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["洪委員申翰：兩個月內可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：可以，可以。"],["洪委員申翰：好。部長，最後我想要提一個事情，我之前在對許部長的質詢裡面有提到，我們其實遇到一個陳情，有一個家庭的雇主，他家庭的看護工中風了，所以雇主一面要照顧爸爸，又要照顧這個中風的看護工，所以他就尋求仲介協助，結果仲介就跟他說你就趕快把這個中風移工送回國，就沒你的事了。但是這個雇主不願意昧著良心這樣做，所以他打1995找勞發署或地方的勞工局，但都沒有人能夠協助他，最後他跑來，這是他的陳情信，跑來找我們，才在各種的媒介之下去處理這些事情。","這個案例我當時就跟許部長說了，這凸顯一件事情是我們在臺灣的移工，並沒有一個清楚的支援中心或一個支援網絡，可以去協助他們得到各種他必要的後勤支援。所以這件事情就變成又要落入到雇主身上，當雇主沒能力承擔的時候，就會發生種種大家不樂見的狀況。我們在3月的時候提，當時許部長有跟我說兩個月的時間，會把移工的支援中心跟支援網絡做相關的規劃，可是兩個月到了，我目前沒有看到這些相關的規劃。部長，當時蔡署長也在場，這部分部長覺得要多久的時間？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我正在要求勞發署進行一個勞政友善計畫，全面檢討所有相關的服務。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["何部長佩珊：這個建置移工就醫指南系統，是我們現在正在檢討要進行的。"],["洪委員申翰：就一個綜合性的支援計畫，設置支援網絡的中心，大概多久時間可以給我們相關的規劃？"],["何部長佩珊：三個月可以嗎？"],["洪委員申翰：上次你跟我說兩個月，兩個月已經到了呢？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，給我一點時間啦！"],["洪委員申翰：部長，再兩個月好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，開議前一定給您。"],["洪委員申翰：開議前，開議前我接受，開議前一定給，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，接下來我們請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"154235","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154235","tool":"pyannote","id":"154235-pyannote"},"job_id":"wSoR3xIIIiAvpZ9X","queued_at":"2024-06-26 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\"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 187.42, \"end\": 187.5, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 187.5, \"end\": 187.721, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 187.721, \"end\": 188.861, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 188.861, \"end\": 188.982, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"印\", \"start\": 188.982, \"end\": 189.062, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 189.062, \"end\": 189.202, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"移\", \"start\": 189.202, \"end\": 189.322, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 189.322, \"end\": 189.542, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 189.542, \"end\": 189.882, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"聘\", \"start\": 189.882, \"end\": 190.022, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 190.022, \"end\": 190.323, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 190.323, \"end\": 190.443, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": 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\"到\", \"start\": 219.689, \"end\": 219.829, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 219.829, \"end\": 220.25, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 220.25, \"end\": 220.69, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"聘\", \"start\": 220.69, \"end\": 220.85, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 220.85, \"end\": 221.01, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 221.01, \"end\": 221.13, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 221.13, \"end\": 221.27, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 221.27, \"end\": 221.43, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 221.43, \"end\": 221.811, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"創\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 221.811, \"end\": 221.991, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 221.991, \"end\": 222.111, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 222.111, \"end\": 222.371, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": 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\"這個也有類似這樣子執聘的MOU的那個要求這樣子部長你這樣講我就擔心了我們這一次確實是希望跟過去四國這過去四國當然有一定的這個發展的軌跡可是這一次的印度的MOU這是一個新的機會尤其是我們一開始要做小規模的示範\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 385.803, \"end\": 385.943, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 385.943, \"end\": 386.403, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"似\", \"start\": 386.403, \"end\": 387.083, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 387.083, \"end\": 387.324, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"聘\", \"start\": 387.324, \"end\": 387.564, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 387.564, \"end\": 387.844, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"M\", \"start\": 387.844, \"end\": 387.964, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 387.964, \"end\": 388.204, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"U\", \"start\": 388.204, \"end\": 388.424, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 388.424, \"end\": 388.584, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 567.054, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 567.054, \"end\": 567.074, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"﹗\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 594.099, \"end\": 594.219, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 594.219, \"end\": 594.319, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 594.319, \"end\": 594.339, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,033 --> 00:00:37,178\n請何部長請部長我們今天在討論台灣跟印度簽的這個關於勞務移工的MOU那當然應該是基於其實台灣跟印度這兩國我們兩國其實這幾年越來越我想包括互相對待的友善跟信任的增加所簽署的\n\n2\n00:00:38,414 --> 00:00:57,565\n但確實這段時間關於這個MOU引起的社會很多的討論我認為其中一個很大的原因是因為雖然我們兩國的政府有平凡的互動但台灣社會整體來說其實對於印度真的不是非常熟悉所以容易會有很多的投射或者是誤會\n\n3\n00:00:59,366 --> 00:01:17,684\n但這次引進印度各界的聲音其實我想確實非常多那但我自己認為這其實恐怕這確實已經不是只是印度移工的問題而是我們其實臺灣社會在引進外籍勞工的這條路上其實跟過去真的已經不一樣了我認為已經到\n\n4\n00:01:19,125 --> 00:01:32,097\n另一個階段也就是說社會各界其實都希望政府能夠在這個引進外籍勞工的過程裡面恐怕必須要承擔起更多基礎設施的建立也包括承擔起更多的責任\n\n5\n00:01:33,530 --> 00:01:58,112\n那這次引發這麼多討論有一個很根本的原因我認為其實就是過去的政府對於移工引進的這個責任的承擔真的太少了所以大部分的壓力都落在僱主身上那僱主尤其是弱勢的僱主如果沒有辦法承擔的話那他就把這個承擔的責任就希望轉移到仲介身上尤其是管理的人到仲介身上\n\n6\n00:01:59,073 --> 00:02:06,959\n那如果仲介沒有處理好或者是想要壓低成本各種手段就可能在社會上會造成各種大家不樂見的亂象\n\n7\n00:02:09,335 --> 00:02:33,937\n那這也是為什麼後來社會對於整體移工的觀感會有一些包括出現的一些歧視或者是一些這樣既定觀感的我覺得一個原因在這個地方所以它某個部分它在這裡面其實是一個層層轉嫁的結構但源頭我不知道部長同不同意確實是我們在拼顧移工過程尤其引進移工過程裡面政府的把關跟承擔確實是不夠的過去\n\n8\n00:02:36,306 --> 00:02:58,954\n有檢討的空間啦好,不然我其實知道這一次在我們簽訂的MOU的第8條裡面是直接關於這個直接聘僱的部分那條文的內容當然包括說現有招募制度雙方同意推動直接聘僱計畫等等等這是當然第一次把這個職聘的部分寫進這個條文裡\n\n9\n00:03:00,535 --> 00:03:11,764\n但就我所知過去其實臺灣的尤其是老發署曾經也推動過相關的一些職聘的計劃那我想問這一次印度移工的職聘跟過去的職聘不一樣的地方在哪裡?\n\n10\n00:03:13,655 --> 00:03:42,391\n委員您也知道現在我們的職聘其實效能並不是很好啦國內目前對但也是大院委員一直關切的問題嘛那麼在國內的職聘的經驗還沒有很精進之前就是說這次台印的MOU裡面這個職聘它是一個必須是一個全新的嘗試啦它的職聘不是我們現在傳統我們看到的國內的這種職聘方式它要有創新的做法\n\n11\n00:03:42,711 --> 00:03:48,441\n我會覺得國內現在的職聘不太像真的是一個功能完整的職聘那我說不同在哪裡?\n\n12\n00:03:49,707 --> 00:04:17,114\n那個不同在於說我們有沒有能力未來這個要評估的就是比如我們有沒有辦法像韓國這樣到對方來源國去設點直接去選工然後在那裡就直接像韓國那樣跟企業跟政府大家密切合作然後也一起來進行這樣子這是要評估的其實每一個國家之間可能都有情境上的不同\n\n13\n00:04:18,274 --> 00:04:38,368\n所以你很難完全把另外一個國家經營完全抄襲可是我覺得參考跟分析是必要的比方說如果就像部長剛才講到的韓國其實我們大概如果對韓國的職聘進入一些分析把他在這個他韓國職聘裡面幾個重要的元素拆解出來的時候我們大概發現幾件事情\n\n14\n00:04:39,088 --> 00:05:03,323\n其實台灣跟目前韓國政府目前在規劃上面的我們大概少了兩件事情第一個事情就是我這個表格裡面提到的他有一個所謂的僱用許可之專用資訊系統一般來說叫做SPAS那下面一個就是透過SPAS去做選工這其實反而是現代韓國的執聘系統跟台灣過去的規劃裡面比較大差別的地方\n\n15\n00:05:04,264 --> 00:05:23,420\n那這當然我們現在先做這樣子的分析可是我們現在看到我們看到勞發署有提到在這次勞動部報告裡面有提到這個直接聘僱印度勞工資訊系統我想先請問這是不是就是韓國他們韓國政府他的這個SPS我想先問這件事情\n\n16\n00:05:24,022 --> 00:05:24,442\n我之前也有跟蔡組長討論過這個事情\n\n17\n00:05:44,457 --> 00:06:06,283\n在引進泰國移工的時候,我們有嘗試想要用過這個SPAS,但當時其實並沒有成功。當時沒有成功當然原因是因為有很多配套沒有處理好,所以我們有很多政府的基本的服務沒有提供。所以最後變得這樣不足就再回去找仲介,或者覺得仲介這個比較競爭力。所以我想要問,\n\n18\n00:06:07,659 --> 00:06:09,681\n市委員,我們現在包括台非或是印尼\n\n19\n00:06:25,803 --> 00:06:45,989\n這個也有類似這樣子執聘的MOU的那個要求這樣子部長你這樣講我就擔心了我們這一次確實是希望跟過去四國這過去四國當然有一定的這個發展的軌跡可是這一次的印度的MOU這是一個新的機會尤其是我們一開始要做小規模的示範\n\n20\n00:06:46,929 --> 00:07:07,794\n所以在這個小規模示範裡面我們可以比過去更沒有包袱的來去做一些嘗試所以我剛剛說我們其實過去也有嘗試過執聘可是就像它的功能不彰我們也有嘗試過這個SPS的系統可是因為配套不足我認為如果這一次我們包括勞動部的報告裡面MOU第8條裡面就寫說我們要把執聘給做好\n\n21\n00:07:08,354 --> 00:07:08,794\n我自己是希望可不可以在\n\n22\n00:07:21,611 --> 00:07:41,110\n兩月內可以把你們接下來如何能夠再汲取過去執聘不太成功的經驗下的改變的做法哪些最重要的改變的原則跟架構能夠提供給我們我覺得這件事情是這個我覺得不應該閉門造局我覺得這件事情是可以來跟社會各界\n\n23\n00:07:41,650 --> 00:07:59,808\n包括移工團體包括雇主團體或者是怎樣怎麼樣設計出一個好用而有競爭力的職聘來增加政府在聘雇移工過程裡面能夠承擔的責任或者一般人家講居土居我覺得參考其他國家經驗這是一定必要的但重點是我們要把這個經驗給磨出來\n\n24\n00:08:01,369 --> 00:08:11,616\n而不要再重蹈過去的腹瀉,部長這沒有問題吧?當然那兩個月內可以嗎?可以可以可以好,部長最後我想要提一個事情喔我其實之前在對許部長的質詢裡面我有提到\n\n25\n00:08:13,391 --> 00:08:30,643\n我們其實遇到一個陳情有一個家庭的僱主他說他家庭的看護工中風了所以這個僱主他一面要照顧他的爸爸又要照顧這位中國的看護工所以他就尋求仲介結果那個仲介呢就跟他說那你就趕快把這仲介移工送回國就沒你的事了\n\n26\n00:08:31,784 --> 00:08:46,902\n但這個僱主他不願意昧著良心這樣做所以他打1995去找勞發署或地方的勞動局但都沒有人能夠協助他最後他跑來這是他的陳情信跑來找我們才在各種的媒介之下來去處理這些事情那這個案例我當時就跟許部長\n\n27\n00:08:47,743 --> 00:09:10,605\n說了這凸顯一件事情是其實我們在臺灣的移工並沒有一個清楚的支援中心或一個支援的網絡可以去協助他們做出各種其實他可能必要的後勤的資源所以這些事情就變成又要落入到僱主的身上當僱主沒能力承擔的時候就會遇到種種大家不樂見的狀況會發生當時許部長有跟我說那時候我們在3月的時候提\n\n28\n00:09:11,926 --> 00:09:25,813\n說兩個月的時間會把這個資源移工的資源中心跟資源的網絡做相關的規劃可是兩個月到了我目前沒有看到這些相關的規劃部長這個當時蔡署長也是\n\n29\n00:09:26,954 --> 00:09:27,074\n主席﹗\n\n30\n00:09:54,099 --> 00:09:54,339\n接下來我們請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10033\t37178\t請何部長請部長我們今天在討論台灣跟印度簽的這個關於勞務移工的MOU那當然應該是基於其實台灣跟印度這兩國我們兩國其實這幾年越來越我想包括互相對待的友善跟信任的增加所簽署的\n38414\t57565\t但確實這段時間關於這個MOU引起的社會很多的討論我認為其中一個很大的原因是因為雖然我們兩國的政府有平凡的互動但台灣社會整體來說其實對於印度真的不是非常熟悉所以容易會有很多的投射或者是誤會\n59366\t77684\t但這次引進印度各界的聲音其實我想確實非常多那但我自己認為這其實恐怕這確實已經不是只是印度移工的問題而是我們其實臺灣社會在引進外籍勞工的這條路上其實跟過去真的已經不一樣了我認為已經到\n79125\t92097\t另一個階段也就是說社會各界其實都希望政府能夠在這個引進外籍勞工的過程裡面恐怕必須要承擔起更多基礎設施的建立也包括承擔起更多的責任\n93530\t118112\t那這次引發這麼多討論有一個很根本的原因我認為其實就是過去的政府對於移工引進的這個責任的承擔真的太少了所以大部分的壓力都落在僱主身上那僱主尤其是弱勢的僱主如果沒有辦法承擔的話那他就把這個承擔的責任就希望轉移到仲介身上尤其是管理的人到仲介身上\n119073\t126959\t那如果仲介沒有處理好或者是想要壓低成本各種手段就可能在社會上會造成各種大家不樂見的亂象\n129335\t153937\t那這也是為什麼後來社會對於整體移工的觀感會有一些包括出現的一些歧視或者是一些這樣既定觀感的我覺得一個原因在這個地方所以它某個部分它在這裡面其實是一個層層轉嫁的結構但源頭我不知道部長同不同意確實是我們在拼顧移工過程尤其引進移工過程裡面政府的把關跟承擔確實是不夠的過去\n156306\t178954\t有檢討的空間啦好,不然我其實知道這一次在我們簽訂的MOU的第8條裡面是直接關於這個直接聘僱的部分那條文的內容當然包括說現有招募制度雙方同意推動直接聘僱計畫等等等這是當然第一次把這個職聘的部分寫進這個條文裡\n180535\t191764\t但就我所知過去其實臺灣的尤其是老發署曾經也推動過相關的一些職聘的計劃那我想問這一次印度移工的職聘跟過去的職聘不一樣的地方在哪裡?\n193655\t222391\t委員您也知道現在我們的職聘其實效能並不是很好啦國內目前對但也是大院委員一直關切的問題嘛那麼在國內的職聘的經驗還沒有很精進之前就是說這次台印的MOU裡面這個職聘它是一個必須是一個全新的嘗試啦它的職聘不是我們現在傳統我們看到的國內的這種職聘方式它要有創新的做法\n222711\t228441\t我會覺得國內現在的職聘不太像真的是一個功能完整的職聘那我說不同在哪裡?\n229707\t257114\t那個不同在於說我們有沒有能力未來這個要評估的就是比如我們有沒有辦法像韓國這樣到對方來源國去設點直接去選工然後在那裡就直接像韓國那樣跟企業跟政府大家密切合作然後也一起來進行這樣子這是要評估的其實每一個國家之間可能都有情境上的不同\n258274\t278368\t所以你很難完全把另外一個國家經營完全抄襲可是我覺得參考跟分析是必要的比方說如果就像部長剛才講到的韓國其實我們大概如果對韓國的職聘進入一些分析把他在這個他韓國職聘裡面幾個重要的元素拆解出來的時候我們大概發現幾件事情\n279088\t303323\t其實台灣跟目前韓國政府目前在規劃上面的我們大概少了兩件事情第一個事情就是我這個表格裡面提到的他有一個所謂的僱用許可之專用資訊系統一般來說叫做SPAS那下面一個就是透過SPAS去做選工這其實反而是現代韓國的執聘系統跟台灣過去的規劃裡面比較大差別的地方\n304264\t323420\t那這當然我們現在先做這樣子的分析可是我們現在看到我們看到勞發署有提到在這次勞動部報告裡面有提到這個直接聘僱印度勞工資訊系統我想先請問這是不是就是韓國他們韓國政府他的這個SPS我想先問這件事情\n324022\t324442\t我之前也有跟蔡組長討論過這個事情\n344457\t366283\t在引進泰國移工的時候,我們有嘗試想要用過這個SPAS,但當時其實並沒有成功。當時沒有成功當然原因是因為有很多配套沒有處理好,所以我們有很多政府的基本的服務沒有提供。所以最後變得這樣不足就再回去找仲介,或者覺得仲介這個比較競爭力。所以我想要問,\n367659\t369681\t市委員,我們現在包括台非或是印尼\n385803\t405989\t這個也有類似這樣子執聘的MOU的那個要求這樣子部長你這樣講我就擔心了我們這一次確實是希望跟過去四國這過去四國當然有一定的這個發展的軌跡可是這一次的印度的MOU這是一個新的機會尤其是我們一開始要做小規模的示範\n406929\t427794\t所以在這個小規模示範裡面我們可以比過去更沒有包袱的來去做一些嘗試所以我剛剛說我們其實過去也有嘗試過執聘可是就像它的功能不彰我們也有嘗試過這個SPS的系統可是因為配套不足我認為如果這一次我們包括勞動部的報告裡面MOU第8條裡面就寫說我們要把執聘給做好\n428354\t428794\t我自己是希望可不可以在\n441611\t461110\t兩月內可以把你們接下來如何能夠再汲取過去執聘不太成功的經驗下的改變的做法哪些最重要的改變的原則跟架構能夠提供給我們我覺得這件事情是這個我覺得不應該閉門造局我覺得這件事情是可以來跟社會各界\n461650\t479808\t包括移工團體包括雇主團體或者是怎樣怎麼樣設計出一個好用而有競爭力的職聘來增加政府在聘雇移工過程裡面能夠承擔的責任或者一般人家講居土居我覺得參考其他國家經驗這是一定必要的但重點是我們要把這個經驗給磨出來\n481369\t491616\t而不要再重蹈過去的腹瀉,部長這沒有問題吧?當然那兩個月內可以嗎?可以可以可以好,部長最後我想要提一個事情喔我其實之前在對許部長的質詢裡面我有提到\n493391\t510643\t我們其實遇到一個陳情有一個家庭的僱主他說他家庭的看護工中風了所以這個僱主他一面要照顧他的爸爸又要照顧這位中國的看護工所以他就尋求仲介結果那個仲介呢就跟他說那你就趕快把這仲介移工送回國就沒你的事了\n511784\t526902\t但這個僱主他不願意昧著良心這樣做所以他打1995去找勞發署或地方的勞動局但都沒有人能夠協助他最後他跑來這是他的陳情信跑來找我們才在各種的媒介之下來去處理這些事情那這個案例我當時就跟許部長\n527743\t550605\t說了這凸顯一件事情是其實我們在臺灣的移工並沒有一個清楚的支援中心或一個支援的網絡可以去協助他們做出各種其實他可能必要的後勤的資源所以這些事情就變成又要落入到僱主的身上當僱主沒能力承擔的時候就會遇到種種大家不樂見的狀況會發生當時許部長有跟我說那時候我們在3月的時候提\n551926\t565813\t說兩個月的時間會把這個資源移工的資源中心跟資源的網絡做相關的規劃可是兩個月到了我目前沒有看到這些相關的規劃部長這個當時蔡署長也是\n566954\t567074\t主席﹗\n594099\t594339\t接下來我們請\n","txt":"請何部長請部長我們今天在討論台灣跟印度簽的這個關於勞務移工的MOU那當然應該是基於其實台灣跟印度這兩國我們兩國其實這幾年越來越我想包括互相對待的友善跟信任的增加所簽署的\n但確實這段時間關於這個MOU引起的社會很多的討論我認為其中一個很大的原因是因為雖然我們兩國的政府有平凡的互動但台灣社會整體來說其實對於印度真的不是非常熟悉所以容易會有很多的投射或者是誤會\n但這次引進印度各界的聲音其實我想確實非常多那但我自己認為這其實恐怕這確實已經不是只是印度移工的問題而是我們其實臺灣社會在引進外籍勞工的這條路上其實跟過去真的已經不一樣了我認為已經到\n另一個階段也就是說社會各界其實都希望政府能夠在這個引進外籍勞工的過程裡面恐怕必須要承擔起更多基礎設施的建立也包括承擔起更多的責任\n那這次引發這麼多討論有一個很根本的原因我認為其實就是過去的政府對於移工引進的這個責任的承擔真的太少了所以大部分的壓力都落在僱主身上那僱主尤其是弱勢的僱主如果沒有辦法承擔的話那他就把這個承擔的責任就希望轉移到仲介身上尤其是管理的人到仲介身上\n那如果仲介沒有處理好或者是想要壓低成本各種手段就可能在社會上會造成各種大家不樂見的亂象\n那這也是為什麼後來社會對於整體移工的觀感會有一些包括出現的一些歧視或者是一些這樣既定觀感的我覺得一個原因在這個地方所以它某個部分它在這裡面其實是一個層層轉嫁的結構但源頭我不知道部長同不同意確實是我們在拼顧移工過程尤其引進移工過程裡面政府的把關跟承擔確實是不夠的過去\n有檢討的空間啦好,不然我其實知道這一次在我們簽訂的MOU的第8條裡面是直接關於這個直接聘僱的部分那條文的內容當然包括說現有招募制度雙方同意推動直接聘僱計畫等等等這是當然第一次把這個職聘的部分寫進這個條文裡\n但就我所知過去其實臺灣的尤其是老發署曾經也推動過相關的一些職聘的計劃那我想問這一次印度移工的職聘跟過去的職聘不一樣的地方在哪裡?\n委員您也知道現在我們的職聘其實效能並不是很好啦國內目前對但也是大院委員一直關切的問題嘛那麼在國內的職聘的經驗還沒有很精進之前就是說這次台印的MOU裡面這個職聘它是一個必須是一個全新的嘗試啦它的職聘不是我們現在傳統我們看到的國內的這種職聘方式它要有創新的做法\n我會覺得國內現在的職聘不太像真的是一個功能完整的職聘那我說不同在哪裡?\n那個不同在於說我們有沒有能力未來這個要評估的就是比如我們有沒有辦法像韓國這樣到對方來源國去設點直接去選工然後在那裡就直接像韓國那樣跟企業跟政府大家密切合作然後也一起來進行這樣子這是要評估的其實每一個國家之間可能都有情境上的不同\n所以你很難完全把另外一個國家經營完全抄襲可是我覺得參考跟分析是必要的比方說如果就像部長剛才講到的韓國其實我們大概如果對韓國的職聘進入一些分析把他在這個他韓國職聘裡面幾個重要的元素拆解出來的時候我們大概發現幾件事情\n其實台灣跟目前韓國政府目前在規劃上面的我們大概少了兩件事情第一個事情就是我這個表格裡面提到的他有一個所謂的僱用許可之專用資訊系統一般來說叫做SPAS那下面一個就是透過SPAS去做選工這其實反而是現代韓國的執聘系統跟台灣過去的規劃裡面比較大差別的地方\n那這當然我們現在先做這樣子的分析可是我們現在看到我們看到勞發署有提到在這次勞動部報告裡面有提到這個直接聘僱印度勞工資訊系統我想先請問這是不是就是韓國他們韓國政府他的這個SPS我想先問這件事情\n我之前也有跟蔡組長討論過這個事情\n在引進泰國移工的時候,我們有嘗試想要用過這個SPAS,但當時其實並沒有成功。當時沒有成功當然原因是因為有很多配套沒有處理好,所以我們有很多政府的基本的服務沒有提供。所以最後變得這樣不足就再回去找仲介,或者覺得仲介這個比較競爭力。所以我想要問,\n市委員,我們現在包括台非或是印尼\n這個也有類似這樣子執聘的MOU的那個要求這樣子部長你這樣講我就擔心了我們這一次確實是希望跟過去四國這過去四國當然有一定的這個發展的軌跡可是這一次的印度的MOU這是一個新的機會尤其是我們一開始要做小規模的示範\n所以在這個小規模示範裡面我們可以比過去更沒有包袱的來去做一些嘗試所以我剛剛說我們其實過去也有嘗試過執聘可是就像它的功能不彰我們也有嘗試過這個SPS的系統可是因為配套不足我認為如果這一次我們包括勞動部的報告裡面MOU第8條裡面就寫說我們要把執聘給做好\n我自己是希望可不可以在\n兩月內可以把你們接下來如何能夠再汲取過去執聘不太成功的經驗下的改變的做法哪些最重要的改變的原則跟架構能夠提供給我們我覺得這件事情是這個我覺得不應該閉門造局我覺得這件事情是可以來跟社會各界\n包括移工團體包括雇主團體或者是怎樣怎麼樣設計出一個好用而有競爭力的職聘來增加政府在聘雇移工過程裡面能夠承擔的責任或者一般人家講居土居我覺得參考其他國家經驗這是一定必要的但重點是我們要把這個經驗給磨出來\n而不要再重蹈過去的腹瀉,部長這沒有問題吧?當然那兩個月內可以嗎?可以可以可以好,部長最後我想要提一個事情喔我其實之前在對許部長的質詢裡面我有提到\n我們其實遇到一個陳情有一個家庭的僱主他說他家庭的看護工中風了所以這個僱主他一面要照顧他的爸爸又要照顧這位中國的看護工所以他就尋求仲介結果那個仲介呢就跟他說那你就趕快把這仲介移工送回國就沒你的事了\n但這個僱主他不願意昧著良心這樣做所以他打1995去找勞發署或地方的勞動局但都沒有人能夠協助他最後他跑來這是他的陳情信跑來找我們才在各種的媒介之下來去處理這些事情那這個案例我當時就跟許部長\n說了這凸顯一件事情是其實我們在臺灣的移工並沒有一個清楚的支援中心或一個支援的網絡可以去協助他們做出各種其實他可能必要的後勤的資源所以這些事情就變成又要落入到僱主的身上當僱主沒能力承擔的時候就會遇到種種大家不樂見的狀況會發生當時許部長有跟我說那時候我們在3月的時候提\n說兩個月的時間會把這個資源移工的資源中心跟資源的網絡做相關的規劃可是兩個月到了我目前沒有看到這些相關的規劃部長這個當時蔡署長也是\n主席﹗\n接下來我們請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.033 --> 00:37.178\n請何部長請部長我們今天在討論台灣跟印度簽的這個關於勞務移工的MOU那當然應該是基於其實台灣跟印度這兩國我們兩國其實這幾年越來越我想包括互相對待的友善跟信任的增加所簽署的\n\n00:38.414 --> 00:57.565\n但確實這段時間關於這個MOU引起的社會很多的討論我認為其中一個很大的原因是因為雖然我們兩國的政府有平凡的互動但台灣社會整體來說其實對於印度真的不是非常熟悉所以容易會有很多的投射或者是誤會\n\n00:59.366 --> 01:17.684\n但這次引進印度各界的聲音其實我想確實非常多那但我自己認為這其實恐怕這確實已經不是只是印度移工的問題而是我們其實臺灣社會在引進外籍勞工的這條路上其實跟過去真的已經不一樣了我認為已經到\n\n01:19.125 --> 01:32.097\n另一個階段也就是說社會各界其實都希望政府能夠在這個引進外籍勞工的過程裡面恐怕必須要承擔起更多基礎設施的建立也包括承擔起更多的責任\n\n01:33.530 --> 01:58.112\n那這次引發這麼多討論有一個很根本的原因我認為其實就是過去的政府對於移工引進的這個責任的承擔真的太少了所以大部分的壓力都落在僱主身上那僱主尤其是弱勢的僱主如果沒有辦法承擔的話那他就把這個承擔的責任就希望轉移到仲介身上尤其是管理的人到仲介身上\n\n01:59.073 --> 02:06.959\n那如果仲介沒有處理好或者是想要壓低成本各種手段就可能在社會上會造成各種大家不樂見的亂象\n\n02:09.335 --> 02:33.937\n那這也是為什麼後來社會對於整體移工的觀感會有一些包括出現的一些歧視或者是一些這樣既定觀感的我覺得一個原因在這個地方所以它某個部分它在這裡面其實是一個層層轉嫁的結構但源頭我不知道部長同不同意確實是我們在拼顧移工過程尤其引進移工過程裡面政府的把關跟承擔確實是不夠的過去\n\n02:36.306 --> 02:58.954\n有檢討的空間啦好,不然我其實知道這一次在我們簽訂的MOU的第8條裡面是直接關於這個直接聘僱的部分那條文的內容當然包括說現有招募制度雙方同意推動直接聘僱計畫等等等這是當然第一次把這個職聘的部分寫進這個條文裡\n\n03:00.535 --> 03:11.764\n但就我所知過去其實臺灣的尤其是老發署曾經也推動過相關的一些職聘的計劃那我想問這一次印度移工的職聘跟過去的職聘不一樣的地方在哪裡?\n\n03:13.655 --> 03:42.391\n委員您也知道現在我們的職聘其實效能並不是很好啦國內目前對但也是大院委員一直關切的問題嘛那麼在國內的職聘的經驗還沒有很精進之前就是說這次台印的MOU裡面這個職聘它是一個必須是一個全新的嘗試啦它的職聘不是我們現在傳統我們看到的國內的這種職聘方式它要有創新的做法\n\n03:42.711 --> 03:48.441\n我會覺得國內現在的職聘不太像真的是一個功能完整的職聘那我說不同在哪裡?\n\n03:49.707 --> 04:17.114\n那個不同在於說我們有沒有能力未來這個要評估的就是比如我們有沒有辦法像韓國這樣到對方來源國去設點直接去選工然後在那裡就直接像韓國那樣跟企業跟政府大家密切合作然後也一起來進行這樣子這是要評估的其實每一個國家之間可能都有情境上的不同\n\n04:18.274 --> 04:38.368\n所以你很難完全把另外一個國家經營完全抄襲可是我覺得參考跟分析是必要的比方說如果就像部長剛才講到的韓國其實我們大概如果對韓國的職聘進入一些分析把他在這個他韓國職聘裡面幾個重要的元素拆解出來的時候我們大概發現幾件事情\n\n04:39.088 --> 05:03.323\n其實台灣跟目前韓國政府目前在規劃上面的我們大概少了兩件事情第一個事情就是我這個表格裡面提到的他有一個所謂的僱用許可之專用資訊系統一般來說叫做SPAS那下面一個就是透過SPAS去做選工這其實反而是現代韓國的執聘系統跟台灣過去的規劃裡面比較大差別的地方\n\n05:04.264 --> 05:23.420\n那這當然我們現在先做這樣子的分析可是我們現在看到我們看到勞發署有提到在這次勞動部報告裡面有提到這個直接聘僱印度勞工資訊系統我想先請問這是不是就是韓國他們韓國政府他的這個SPS我想先問這件事情\n\n05:24.022 --> 05:24.442\n我之前也有跟蔡組長討論過這個事情\n\n05:44.457 --> 06:06.283\n在引進泰國移工的時候,我們有嘗試想要用過這個SPAS,但當時其實並沒有成功。當時沒有成功當然原因是因為有很多配套沒有處理好,所以我們有很多政府的基本的服務沒有提供。所以最後變得這樣不足就再回去找仲介,或者覺得仲介這個比較競爭力。所以我想要問,\n\n06:07.659 --> 06:09.681\n市委員,我們現在包括台非或是印尼\n\n06:25.803 --> 06:45.989\n這個也有類似這樣子執聘的MOU的那個要求這樣子部長你這樣講我就擔心了我們這一次確實是希望跟過去四國這過去四國當然有一定的這個發展的軌跡可是這一次的印度的MOU這是一個新的機會尤其是我們一開始要做小規模的示範\n\n06:46.929 --> 07:07.794\n所以在這個小規模示範裡面我們可以比過去更沒有包袱的來去做一些嘗試所以我剛剛說我們其實過去也有嘗試過執聘可是就像它的功能不彰我們也有嘗試過這個SPS的系統可是因為配套不足我認為如果這一次我們包括勞動部的報告裡面MOU第8條裡面就寫說我們要把執聘給做好\n\n07:08.354 --> 07:08.794\n我自己是希望可不可以在\n\n07:21.611 --> 07:41.110\n兩月內可以把你們接下來如何能夠再汲取過去執聘不太成功的經驗下的改變的做法哪些最重要的改變的原則跟架構能夠提供給我們我覺得這件事情是這個我覺得不應該閉門造局我覺得這件事情是可以來跟社會各界\n\n07:41.650 --> 07:59.808\n包括移工團體包括雇主團體或者是怎樣怎麼樣設計出一個好用而有競爭力的職聘來增加政府在聘雇移工過程裡面能夠承擔的責任或者一般人家講居土居我覺得參考其他國家經驗這是一定必要的但重點是我們要把這個經驗給磨出來\n\n08:01.369 --> 08:11.616\n而不要再重蹈過去的腹瀉,部長這沒有問題吧?當然那兩個月內可以嗎?可以可以可以好,部長最後我想要提一個事情喔我其實之前在對許部長的質詢裡面我有提到\n\n08:13.391 --> 08:30.643\n我們其實遇到一個陳情有一個家庭的僱主他說他家庭的看護工中風了所以這個僱主他一面要照顧他的爸爸又要照顧這位中國的看護工所以他就尋求仲介結果那個仲介呢就跟他說那你就趕快把這仲介移工送回國就沒你的事了\n\n08:31.784 --> 08:46.902\n但這個僱主他不願意昧著良心這樣做所以他打1995去找勞發署或地方的勞動局但都沒有人能夠協助他最後他跑來這是他的陳情信跑來找我們才在各種的媒介之下來去處理這些事情那這個案例我當時就跟許部長\n\n08:47.743 --> 09:10.605\n說了這凸顯一件事情是其實我們在臺灣的移工並沒有一個清楚的支援中心或一個支援的網絡可以去協助他們做出各種其實他可能必要的後勤的資源所以這些事情就變成又要落入到僱主的身上當僱主沒能力承擔的時候就會遇到種種大家不樂見的狀況會發生當時許部長有跟我說那時候我們在3月的時候提\n\n09:11.926 --> 09:25.813\n說兩個月的時間會把這個資源移工的資源中心跟資源的網絡做相關的規劃可是兩個月到了我目前沒有看到這些相關的規劃部長這個當時蔡署長也是\n\n09:26.954 --> 09:27.074\n主席﹗\n\n09:54.099 --> 09:54.339\n接下來我們請\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.033,"end":37.178,"text":"請何部長請部長我們今天在討論台灣跟印度簽的這個關於勞務移工的MOU那當然應該是基於其實台灣跟印度這兩國我們兩國其實這幾年越來越我想包括互相對待的友善跟信任的增加所簽署的"},{"start":38.414,"end":57.565,"text":"但確實這段時間關於這個MOU引起的社會很多的討論我認為其中一個很大的原因是因為雖然我們兩國的政府有平凡的互動但台灣社會整體來說其實對於印度真的不是非常熟悉所以容易會有很多的投射或者是誤會"},{"start":59.366,"end":77.684,"text":"但這次引進印度各界的聲音其實我想確實非常多那但我自己認為這其實恐怕這確實已經不是只是印度移工的問題而是我們其實臺灣社會在引進外籍勞工的這條路上其實跟過去真的已經不一樣了我認為已經到"},{"start":79.125,"end":92.097,"text":"另一個階段也就是說社會各界其實都希望政府能夠在這個引進外籍勞工的過程裡面恐怕必須要承擔起更多基礎設施的建立也包括承擔起更多的責任"},{"start":93.53,"end":118.112,"text":"那這次引發這麼多討論有一個很根本的原因我認為其實就是過去的政府對於移工引進的這個責任的承擔真的太少了所以大部分的壓力都落在僱主身上那僱主尤其是弱勢的僱主如果沒有辦法承擔的話那他就把這個承擔的責任就希望轉移到仲介身上尤其是管理的人到仲介身上"},{"start":119.073,"end":126.959,"text":"那如果仲介沒有處理好或者是想要壓低成本各種手段就可能在社會上會造成各種大家不樂見的亂象"},{"start":129.335,"end":153.937,"text":"那這也是為什麼後來社會對於整體移工的觀感會有一些包括出現的一些歧視或者是一些這樣既定觀感的我覺得一個原因在這個地方所以它某個部分它在這裡面其實是一個層層轉嫁的結構但源頭我不知道部長同不同意確實是我們在拼顧移工過程尤其引進移工過程裡面政府的把關跟承擔確實是不夠的過去"},{"start":156.306,"end":178.954,"text":"有檢討的空間啦好,不然我其實知道這一次在我們簽訂的MOU的第8條裡面是直接關於這個直接聘僱的部分那條文的內容當然包括說現有招募制度雙方同意推動直接聘僱計畫等等等這是當然第一次把這個職聘的部分寫進這個條文裡"},{"start":180.535,"end":191.764,"text":"但就我所知過去其實臺灣的尤其是老發署曾經也推動過相關的一些職聘的計劃那我想問這一次印度移工的職聘跟過去的職聘不一樣的地方在哪裡?"},{"start":193.655,"end":222.391,"text":"委員您也知道現在我們的職聘其實效能並不是很好啦國內目前對但也是大院委員一直關切的問題嘛那麼在國內的職聘的經驗還沒有很精進之前就是說這次台印的MOU裡面這個職聘它是一個必須是一個全新的嘗試啦它的職聘不是我們現在傳統我們看到的國內的這種職聘方式它要有創新的做法"},{"start":222.711,"end":228.441,"text":"我會覺得國內現在的職聘不太像真的是一個功能完整的職聘那我說不同在哪裡?"},{"start":229.707,"end":257.114,"text":"那個不同在於說我們有沒有能力未來這個要評估的就是比如我們有沒有辦法像韓國這樣到對方來源國去設點直接去選工然後在那裡就直接像韓國那樣跟企業跟政府大家密切合作然後也一起來進行這樣子這是要評估的其實每一個國家之間可能都有情境上的不同"},{"start":258.274,"end":278.368,"text":"所以你很難完全把另外一個國家經營完全抄襲可是我覺得參考跟分析是必要的比方說如果就像部長剛才講到的韓國其實我們大概如果對韓國的職聘進入一些分析把他在這個他韓國職聘裡面幾個重要的元素拆解出來的時候我們大概發現幾件事情"},{"start":279.088,"end":303.323,"text":"其實台灣跟目前韓國政府目前在規劃上面的我們大概少了兩件事情第一個事情就是我這個表格裡面提到的他有一個所謂的僱用許可之專用資訊系統一般來說叫做SPAS那下面一個就是透過SPAS去做選工這其實反而是現代韓國的執聘系統跟台灣過去的規劃裡面比較大差別的地方"},{"start":304.264,"end":323.42,"text":"那這當然我們現在先做這樣子的分析可是我們現在看到我們看到勞發署有提到在這次勞動部報告裡面有提到這個直接聘僱印度勞工資訊系統我想先請問這是不是就是韓國他們韓國政府他的這個SPS我想先問這件事情"},{"start":324.022,"end":324.442,"text":"我之前也有跟蔡組長討論過這個事情"},{"start":344.457,"end":366.283,"text":"在引進泰國移工的時候,我們有嘗試想要用過這個SPAS,但當時其實並沒有成功。當時沒有成功當然原因是因為有很多配套沒有處理好,所以我們有很多政府的基本的服務沒有提供。所以最後變得這樣不足就再回去找仲介,或者覺得仲介這個比較競爭力。所以我想要問,"},{"start":367.659,"end":369.681,"text":"市委員,我們現在包括台非或是印尼"},{"start":385.803,"end":405.989,"text":"這個也有類似這樣子執聘的MOU的那個要求這樣子部長你這樣講我就擔心了我們這一次確實是希望跟過去四國這過去四國當然有一定的這個發展的軌跡可是這一次的印度的MOU這是一個新的機會尤其是我們一開始要做小規模的示範"},{"start":406.929,"end":427.794,"text":"所以在這個小規模示範裡面我們可以比過去更沒有包袱的來去做一些嘗試所以我剛剛說我們其實過去也有嘗試過執聘可是就像它的功能不彰我們也有嘗試過這個SPS的系統可是因為配套不足我認為如果這一次我們包括勞動部的報告裡面MOU第8條裡面就寫說我們要把執聘給做好"},{"start":428.354,"end":428.794,"text":"我自己是希望可不可以在"},{"start":441.611,"end":461.11,"text":"兩月內可以把你們接下來如何能夠再汲取過去執聘不太成功的經驗下的改變的做法哪些最重要的改變的原則跟架構能夠提供給我們我覺得這件事情是這個我覺得不應該閉門造局我覺得這件事情是可以來跟社會各界"},{"start":461.65,"end":479.808,"text":"包括移工團體包括雇主團體或者是怎樣怎麼樣設計出一個好用而有競爭力的職聘來增加政府在聘雇移工過程裡面能夠承擔的責任或者一般人家講居土居我覺得參考其他國家經驗這是一定必要的但重點是我們要把這個經驗給磨出來"},{"start":481.369,"end":491.616,"text":"而不要再重蹈過去的腹瀉,部長這沒有問題吧?當然那兩個月內可以嗎?可以可以可以好,部長最後我想要提一個事情喔我其實之前在對許部長的質詢裡面我有提到"},{"start":493.391,"end":510.643,"text":"我們其實遇到一個陳情有一個家庭的僱主他說他家庭的看護工中風了所以這個僱主他一面要照顧他的爸爸又要照顧這位中國的看護工所以他就尋求仲介結果那個仲介呢就跟他說那你就趕快把這仲介移工送回國就沒你的事了"},{"start":511.784,"end":526.902,"text":"但這個僱主他不願意昧著良心這樣做所以他打1995去找勞發署或地方的勞動局但都沒有人能夠協助他最後他跑來這是他的陳情信跑來找我們才在各種的媒介之下來去處理這些事情那這個案例我當時就跟許部長"},{"start":527.743,"end":550.605,"text":"說了這凸顯一件事情是其實我們在臺灣的移工並沒有一個清楚的支援中心或一個支援的網絡可以去協助他們做出各種其實他可能必要的後勤的資源所以這些事情就變成又要落入到僱主的身上當僱主沒能力承擔的時候就會遇到種種大家不樂見的狀況會發生當時許部長有跟我說那時候我們在3月的時候提"},{"start":551.926,"end":565.813,"text":"說兩個月的時間會把這個資源移工的資源中心跟資源的網絡做相關的規劃可是兩個月到了我目前沒有看到這些相關的規劃部長這個當時蔡署長也是"},{"start":566.954,"end":567.074,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":594.099,"end":594.339,"text":"接下來我們請"}]}}}}