{"id":154257,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154257","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd122f13400f81ee6cb68d28c953871b3693176ac657cb8ac9c69a9bda2e6f581175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:34:11 - 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00:00:08,344\n今天在處理關於消防法的修正草案,重中之重,大概是非常多消防弟兄他們期待的,也就是職業安全、衛生、保護的問題。現在在法規上面,消防弟兄把他放在的是跟公務員一樣,二辦法。\n\n2\n00:00:33,098 --> 00:00:44,006\n五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。\n\n3\n00:00:50,131 --> 00:01:02,750\n當然,安慰辦法的修正、強化這個是保訓會跟人事總署必須要面對的問題,但我們先處理消防弟兄關心的事情。\n\n4\n00:01:03,730 --> 00:01:21,713\n過去這個安慰辦法該修沒有修該推動沒有推動大家全部都在踢皮球現在搞到要到消防法裡面去設專章不過目前基層消防員的訴求是全部納入《治安法》當中今天早上\n\n5\n00:01:22,728 --> 00:01:44,383\n今天早上,消防員權益促進會發了一個聲明,他們再次的呼籲,他們不希望用消防法裡面的專章,他們希望全面納入《治安法》。對於我們基層消防弟兄這樣的訴求,部長有什麼回應?因為《治安法》的主管機關並不是內政部,我是不是可以請相關部位來回應一下好嗎?可以。\n\n6\n00:01:51,115 --> 00:02:15,629\n好署長委員好我是勞動部職安署有關職安法的部分確實在102年的時候修法的過程當中我們試著要討論要把公務員納入我們職安法可是在102年的時候已經定調就是我們公務員辦法的安全部分你說102年定調嗎是我們那個職安法修法的時候那時候我們是希望102年定調是2013年嗎是是那個時候還是馬政府時期嗎現在新的政府沒有新的思維嗎出了這麼多事情\n\n7\n00:02:21,108 --> 00:02:48,570\n這麼多寶貴的生命寶貴的家庭都破碎了所以我們現在是民進黨政府消歸潮水嗎?2013年的政策到2024年沒有重新檢討的必要嗎?對於消防弟兄希望全面納入治安法來請教署長消防署的署長您是所有消防弟兄的大家長啊所以該幫他們講話的就是你啊贊不贊成?\n\n8\n00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:50,987\n好,各位委員報告,是不是給我一點時間說明?\n\n9\n00:02:54,804 --> 00:03:21,322\n消防的職業安全絕對比勞工的職業安全還高。這我也應該可以來支持這個論點。那消防的職業安全也比一般公務員還高。所以整個盤點以後事實上我們兩個研究案在做處理。一個就是針對於消防到底用什麼法律案來確保我們的安全。所以在去年過去三年已經把美國的消防人員職業安全、日本東京的消防人員職業安全引進到台灣。\n\n10\n00:03:22,703 --> 00:03:32,226\n五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。\n\n11\n00:03:52,073 --> 00:04:07,762\n我先跟署長確認一件事你要說明我也給你時間說明了剛你說我們消防弟兄的職業安全他的標準應該高於一般的職業安全嘛問題是你們目前消防法專章規範的密度有比治安法規範的密度高嗎這是我的問題\n\n12\n00:04:08,692 --> 00:04:37,181\n各位委員報告,治安法裡面所列的這些項目,相對應我們都列上去。有嗎?是在現在的草案上嗎?還是你未來要規定的質疑?相對應的方向,大章節我們都列進去。是在法案上嗎?還是未來你要去另外定質疑?是現在在草案上還是未來要定質疑?當然,法案絕對不可能全部涵括進去。所以你要另外定質疑是嗎?後面很多措施。來啊,我就直接給你看。\n\n13\n00:04:38,376 --> 00:05:02,827\n你說消防安全應該要比一般的勞工標準更高然後你們要把相關的規定放在草案裡面人家在職安法為什麼要用職安法因為職安法裡面針對僱主應該遵循的指引是鉅細靡遺的寫但你們現在所推出來的草案來我先問署長一件事有吹哨子的保護機制嗎已經列進去了第幾條\n\n14\n00:05:08,604 --> 00:05:14,545\n十五條裡面已經有針對吹哨者的機制來做處理。來來來,你把院版十五條唸給大家聽。好,感謝委員。公共危險物品這些大管這兩時,應該製造的場所進行處理。那所以呢?還沒結束。後面應該是在後面的條裡面,這些場所,\n\n15\n00:05:41,945 --> 00:06:08,002\n我現在是說基層申訴違反職啊你說有吹哨的保護機制在第幾條15條講的是什麼15條講的是有關於15條公共危險這個是場所的問題耶跟委員報告公務員保障法這邊這個公務人員的吹哨應該是回到公務人員的安慰辦法27條28條所以嘛是我剛說月版的消防法沒有嘛是\n\n16\n00:06:08,642 --> 00:06:17,385\n三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。\n\n17\n00:06:34,632 --> 00:07:00,743\n公務人員安全衛生辦法30條我不是寫在上面給你看嗎?違反對於吹哨者的保護去追殺他接下來的罰則是什麼?有嗎?你說在院版的消防法有,我就跟你講沒有嘛!還在這邊公開胡扯!所以我問你消防法第幾條你講不出來嘛!你胡亂引15條!你以為大家不會看法條喔?\n\n18\n00:07:02,202 --> 00:07:27,613\n十五條是你講的嗎那你說要回到安慰辦法就現在規範保障不足嘛所以我請教你嘛違反崔少澤保障他的法則在哪裡有寫嗎你看一下職業安全衛生法有沒有崔少澤保護的條款有耶法律要件法律效果都有耶你們的消防法根本沒有啊\n\n19\n00:07:28,615 --> 00:07:54,395\n公務人員安全衛生辦法也沒有罰則你剛剛好意思在這邊講你們現在提供的保障比安慰辦法還要高來再往下沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網要對誰究責依照你們的版本這個是職業安全衛生法有的嘛沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網對誰究責\n\n20\n00:08:00,547 --> 00:08:04,092\n欸署長你怎麼對你們自己研擬這麼久的法案這麼不熟啊?\n\n21\n00:08:05,161 --> 00:08:27,647\n兩部分公務人員對於他的員工出問題涉及到堵職這方面這個是有回歸到公務人員服務法這方面的處理我現在問你的是院版的消防法規範在哪裡我條文都幫你整理出來了委員關心的消防人員出問題的一個保障就回過到這個機制好針對委員所提出的署長感謝社會公務員報告室報告室報告感謝\n\n22\n00:08:33,388 --> 00:08:55,202\n我這樣說好了啦你上面寫的要對誰究責非常的荒謬啊你要處罰誰中央主管機關上級機關通知限期改善沒有改善要處3萬元以上30萬元以下罰款你要罰的是誰各級消防機關喔中央地方去罰消防局喔阿這樣是有什麼嚇阻的效果\n\n23\n00:08:56,462 --> 00:09:24,218\n你作為消防署的署長我等你的法案等這麼久你可以不守到這種程度還在上面胡扯讓人嘆為觀止跟委員報告是不是給我一點時間我們會後再跟委員詳細報告目前是直接用法律面的執行怎麼用輔導的方式來執行讓消防能夠走得更穩更健全如果不需要法律只要輔導現在消防弟兄就不會發出怒吼了啦\n\n24\n00:09:25,512 --> 00:09:26,154\n兩者相互搭配\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5623\t8344\t今天在處理關於消防法的修正草案,重中之重,大概是非常多消防弟兄他們期待的,也就是職業安全、衛生、保護的問題。現在在法規上面,消防弟兄把他放在的是跟公務員一樣,二辦法。\n33098\t44006\t五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。\n50131\t62750\t當然,安慰辦法的修正、強化這個是保訓會跟人事總署必須要面對的問題,但我們先處理消防弟兄關心的事情。\n63730\t81713\t過去這個安慰辦法該修沒有修該推動沒有推動大家全部都在踢皮球現在搞到要到消防法裡面去設專章不過目前基層消防員的訴求是全部納入《治安法》當中今天早上\n82728\t104383\t今天早上,消防員權益促進會發了一個聲明,他們再次的呼籲,他們不希望用消防法裡面的專章,他們希望全面納入《治安法》。對於我們基層消防弟兄這樣的訴求,部長有什麼回應?因為《治安法》的主管機關並不是內政部,我是不是可以請相關部位來回應一下好嗎?可以。\n111115\t135629\t好 署長委員好 我是勞動部職安署有關職安法的部分確實在102年的時候修法的過程當中我們試著要討論要把公務員納入我們職安法可是在102年的時候已經定調就是我們公務員辦法的安全部分你說102年定調嗎是我們那個職安法修法的時候那時候我們是希望102年定調是2013年嗎是是那個時候還是馬政府時期嗎現在新的政府沒有新的思維嗎出了這麼多事情\n141108\t168570\t這麼多寶貴的生命寶貴的家庭都破碎了所以我們現在是民進黨政府消歸潮水嗎?2013年的政策到2024年沒有重新檢討的必要嗎?對於消防弟兄希望全面納入治安法來請教署長消防署的署長您是所有消防弟兄的大家長啊所以該幫他們講話的就是你啊贊不贊成?\n169400\t170987\t好,各位委員報告,是不是給我一點時間說明?\n174804\t201322\t消防的職業安全絕對比勞工的職業安全還高。這我也應該可以來支持這個論點。那消防的職業安全也比一般公務員還高。所以整個盤點以後事實上我們兩個研究案在做處理。一個就是針對於消防到底用什麼法律案來確保我們的安全。所以在去年過去三年已經把美國的消防人員職業安全、日本東京的消防人員職業安全引進到台灣。\n202703\t212226\t五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。\n232073\t247762\t我先跟署長確認一件事你要說明我也給你時間說明了剛你說我們消防弟兄的職業安全他的標準應該高於一般的職業安全嘛問題是你們目前消防法專章規範的密度有比治安法規範的密度高嗎這是我的問題\n248692\t277181\t各位委員報告,治安法裡面所列的這些項目,相對應我們都列上去。有嗎?是在現在的草案上嗎?還是你未來要規定的質疑?相對應的方向,大章節我們都列進去。是在法案上嗎?還是未來你要去另外定質疑?是現在在草案上還是未來要定質疑?當然,法案絕對不可能全部涵括進去。所以你要另外定質疑是嗎?後面很多措施。來啊,我就直接給你看。\n278376\t302827\t你說消防安全應該要比一般的勞工標準更高然後你們要把相關的規定放在草案裡面人家在職安法為什麼要用職安法因為職安法裡面針對僱主應該遵循的指引是鉅細靡遺的寫但你們現在所推出來的草案來我先問署長一件事有吹哨子的保護機制嗎已經列進去了第幾條\n308604\t314545\t十五條裡面已經有針對吹哨者的機制來做處理。來來來,你把院版十五條唸給大家聽。好,感謝委員。公共危險物品這些大管這兩時,應該製造的場所進行處理。那所以呢?還沒結束。後面應該是在後面的條裡面,這些場所,\n341945\t368002\t我現在是說基層申訴違反職啊你說有吹哨的保護機制在第幾條15條講的是什麼15條講的是有關於15條公共危險這個是場所的問題耶跟委員報告公務員保障法這邊這個公務人員的吹哨應該是回到公務人員的安慰辦法27條28條所以嘛是我剛說月版的消防法沒有嘛是\n368642\t377385\t三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。\n394632\t420743\t公務人員安全衛生辦法30條我不是寫在上面給你看嗎?違反對於吹哨者的保護去追殺他接下來的罰則是什麼?有嗎?你說在院版的消防法有,我就跟你講沒有嘛!還在這邊公開胡扯!所以我問你消防法第幾條你講不出來嘛!你胡亂引15條!你以為大家不會看法條喔?\n422202\t447613\t十五條是你講的嗎那你說要回到安慰辦法就現在規範保障不足嘛所以我請教你嘛違反崔少澤保障他的法則在哪裡有寫嗎你看一下職業安全衛生法有沒有崔少澤保護的條款有耶法律要件法律效果都有耶你們的消防法根本沒有啊\n448615\t474395\t公務人員安全衛生辦法也沒有罰則你剛剛好意思在這邊講你們現在提供的保障比安慰辦法還要高來再往下沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網要對誰究責依照你們的版本這個是職業安全衛生法有的嘛沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網對誰究責\n480547\t484092\t欸署長你怎麼對你們自己研擬這麼久的法案這麼不熟啊?\n485161\t507647\t兩部分公務人員對於他的員工出問題涉及到堵職這方面這個是有回歸到公務人員服務法這方面的處理我現在問你的是院版的消防法規範在哪裡我條文都幫你整理出來了委員關心的消防人員出問題的一個保障就回過到這個機制好 針對委員所提出的 署長感謝 社會公務員報告室報告室報告感謝\n513388\t535202\t我這樣說好了啦你上面寫的要對誰究責非常的荒謬啊你要處罰誰中央主管機關上級機關通知限期改善沒有改善要處3萬元以上30萬元以下罰款你要罰的是誰各級消防機關喔中央地方去罰消防局喔阿這樣是有什麼嚇阻的效果\n536462\t564218\t你作為消防署的署長我等你的法案等這麼久你可以不守到這種程度還在上面胡扯讓人嘆為觀止跟委員報告是不是給我一點時間我們會後再跟委員詳細報告目前是直接用法律面的執行怎麼用輔導的方式來執行讓消防能夠走得更穩更健全如果不需要法律只要輔導現在消防弟兄就不會發出怒吼了啦\n565512\t566154\t兩者相互搭配\n","txt":"今天在處理關於消防法的修正草案,重中之重,大概是非常多消防弟兄他們期待的,也就是職業安全、衛生、保護的問題。現在在法規上面,消防弟兄把他放在的是跟公務員一樣,二辦法。\n五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。\n當然,安慰辦法的修正、強化這個是保訓會跟人事總署必須要面對的問題,但我們先處理消防弟兄關心的事情。\n過去這個安慰辦法該修沒有修該推動沒有推動大家全部都在踢皮球現在搞到要到消防法裡面去設專章不過目前基層消防員的訴求是全部納入《治安法》當中今天早上\n今天早上,消防員權益促進會發了一個聲明,他們再次的呼籲,他們不希望用消防法裡面的專章,他們希望全面納入《治安法》。對於我們基層消防弟兄這樣的訴求,部長有什麼回應?因為《治安法》的主管機關並不是內政部,我是不是可以請相關部位來回應一下好嗎?可以。\n好 署長委員好 我是勞動部職安署有關職安法的部分確實在102年的時候修法的過程當中我們試著要討論要把公務員納入我們職安法可是在102年的時候已經定調就是我們公務員辦法的安全部分你說102年定調嗎是我們那個職安法修法的時候那時候我們是希望102年定調是2013年嗎是是那個時候還是馬政府時期嗎現在新的政府沒有新的思維嗎出了這麼多事情\n這麼多寶貴的生命寶貴的家庭都破碎了所以我們現在是民進黨政府消歸潮水嗎?2013年的政策到2024年沒有重新檢討的必要嗎?對於消防弟兄希望全面納入治安法來請教署長消防署的署長您是所有消防弟兄的大家長啊所以該幫他們講話的就是你啊贊不贊成?\n好,各位委員報告,是不是給我一點時間說明?\n消防的職業安全絕對比勞工的職業安全還高。這我也應該可以來支持這個論點。那消防的職業安全也比一般公務員還高。所以整個盤點以後事實上我們兩個研究案在做處理。一個就是針對於消防到底用什麼法律案來確保我們的安全。所以在去年過去三年已經把美國的消防人員職業安全、日本東京的消防人員職業安全引進到台灣。\n五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。\n我先跟署長確認一件事你要說明我也給你時間說明了剛你說我們消防弟兄的職業安全他的標準應該高於一般的職業安全嘛問題是你們目前消防法專章規範的密度有比治安法規範的密度高嗎這是我的問題\n各位委員報告,治安法裡面所列的這些項目,相對應我們都列上去。有嗎?是在現在的草案上嗎?還是你未來要規定的質疑?相對應的方向,大章節我們都列進去。是在法案上嗎?還是未來你要去另外定質疑?是現在在草案上還是未來要定質疑?當然,法案絕對不可能全部涵括進去。所以你要另外定質疑是嗎?後面很多措施。來啊,我就直接給你看。\n你說消防安全應該要比一般的勞工標準更高然後你們要把相關的規定放在草案裡面人家在職安法為什麼要用職安法因為職安法裡面針對僱主應該遵循的指引是鉅細靡遺的寫但你們現在所推出來的草案來我先問署長一件事有吹哨子的保護機制嗎已經列進去了第幾條\n十五條裡面已經有針對吹哨者的機制來做處理。來來來,你把院版十五條唸給大家聽。好,感謝委員。公共危險物品這些大管這兩時,應該製造的場所進行處理。那所以呢?還沒結束。後面應該是在後面的條裡面,這些場所,\n我現在是說基層申訴違反職啊你說有吹哨的保護機制在第幾條15條講的是什麼15條講的是有關於15條公共危險這個是場所的問題耶跟委員報告公務員保障法這邊這個公務人員的吹哨應該是回到公務人員的安慰辦法27條28條所以嘛是我剛說月版的消防法沒有嘛是\n三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。\n公務人員安全衛生辦法30條我不是寫在上面給你看嗎?違反對於吹哨者的保護去追殺他接下來的罰則是什麼?有嗎?你說在院版的消防法有,我就跟你講沒有嘛!還在這邊公開胡扯!所以我問你消防法第幾條你講不出來嘛!你胡亂引15條!你以為大家不會看法條喔?\n十五條是你講的嗎那你說要回到安慰辦法就現在規範保障不足嘛所以我請教你嘛違反崔少澤保障他的法則在哪裡有寫嗎你看一下職業安全衛生法有沒有崔少澤保護的條款有耶法律要件法律效果都有耶你們的消防法根本沒有啊\n公務人員安全衛生辦法也沒有罰則你剛剛好意思在這邊講你們現在提供的保障比安慰辦法還要高來再往下沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網要對誰究責依照你們的版本這個是職業安全衛生法有的嘛沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網對誰究責\n欸署長你怎麼對你們自己研擬這麼久的法案這麼不熟啊?\n兩部分公務人員對於他的員工出問題涉及到堵職這方面這個是有回歸到公務人員服務法這方面的處理我現在問你的是院版的消防法規範在哪裡我條文都幫你整理出來了委員關心的消防人員出問題的一個保障就回過到這個機制好 針對委員所提出的 署長感謝 社會公務員報告室報告室報告感謝\n我這樣說好了啦你上面寫的要對誰究責非常的荒謬啊你要處罰誰中央主管機關上級機關通知限期改善沒有改善要處3萬元以上30萬元以下罰款你要罰的是誰各級消防機關喔中央地方去罰消防局喔阿這樣是有什麼嚇阻的效果\n你作為消防署的署長我等你的法案等這麼久你可以不守到這種程度還在上面胡扯讓人嘆為觀止跟委員報告是不是給我一點時間我們會後再跟委員詳細報告目前是直接用法律面的執行怎麼用輔導的方式來執行讓消防能夠走得更穩更健全如果不需要法律只要輔導現在消防弟兄就不會發出怒吼了啦\n兩者相互搭配\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.623 --> 00:08.344\n今天在處理關於消防法的修正草案,重中之重,大概是非常多消防弟兄他們期待的,也就是職業安全、衛生、保護的問題。現在在法規上面,消防弟兄把他放在的是跟公務員一樣,二辦法。\n\n00:33.098 --> 00:44.006\n五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。\n\n00:50.131 --> 01:02.750\n當然,安慰辦法的修正、強化這個是保訓會跟人事總署必須要面對的問題,但我們先處理消防弟兄關心的事情。\n\n01:03.730 --> 01:21.713\n過去這個安慰辦法該修沒有修該推動沒有推動大家全部都在踢皮球現在搞到要到消防法裡面去設專章不過目前基層消防員的訴求是全部納入《治安法》當中今天早上\n\n01:22.728 --> 01:44.383\n今天早上,消防員權益促進會發了一個聲明,他們再次的呼籲,他們不希望用消防法裡面的專章,他們希望全面納入《治安法》。對於我們基層消防弟兄這樣的訴求,部長有什麼回應?因為《治安法》的主管機關並不是內政部,我是不是可以請相關部位來回應一下好嗎?可以。\n\n01:51.115 --> 02:15.629\n好署長委員好我是勞動部職安署有關職安法的部分確實在102年的時候修法的過程當中我們試著要討論要把公務員納入我們職安法可是在102年的時候已經定調就是我們公務員辦法的安全部分你說102年定調嗎是我們那個職安法修法的時候那時候我們是希望102年定調是2013年嗎是是那個時候還是馬政府時期嗎現在新的政府沒有新的思維嗎出了這麼多事情\n\n02:21.108 --> 02:48.570\n這麼多寶貴的生命寶貴的家庭都破碎了所以我們現在是民進黨政府消歸潮水嗎?2013年的政策到2024年沒有重新檢討的必要嗎?對於消防弟兄希望全面納入治安法來請教署長消防署的署長您是所有消防弟兄的大家長啊所以該幫他們講話的就是你啊贊不贊成?\n\n02:49.400 --> 02:50.987\n好,各位委員報告,是不是給我一點時間說明?\n\n02:54.804 --> 03:21.322\n消防的職業安全絕對比勞工的職業安全還高。這我也應該可以來支持這個論點。那消防的職業安全也比一般公務員還高。所以整個盤點以後事實上我們兩個研究案在做處理。一個就是針對於消防到底用什麼法律案來確保我們的安全。所以在去年過去三年已經把美國的消防人員職業安全、日本東京的消防人員職業安全引進到台灣。\n\n03:22.703 --> 03:32.226\n五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。\n\n03:52.073 --> 04:07.762\n我先跟署長確認一件事你要說明我也給你時間說明了剛你說我們消防弟兄的職業安全他的標準應該高於一般的職業安全嘛問題是你們目前消防法專章規範的密度有比治安法規範的密度高嗎這是我的問題\n\n04:08.692 --> 04:37.181\n各位委員報告,治安法裡面所列的這些項目,相對應我們都列上去。有嗎?是在現在的草案上嗎?還是你未來要規定的質疑?相對應的方向,大章節我們都列進去。是在法案上嗎?還是未來你要去另外定質疑?是現在在草案上還是未來要定質疑?當然,法案絕對不可能全部涵括進去。所以你要另外定質疑是嗎?後面很多措施。來啊,我就直接給你看。\n\n04:38.376 --> 05:02.827\n你說消防安全應該要比一般的勞工標準更高然後你們要把相關的規定放在草案裡面人家在職安法為什麼要用職安法因為職安法裡面針對僱主應該遵循的指引是鉅細靡遺的寫但你們現在所推出來的草案來我先問署長一件事有吹哨子的保護機制嗎已經列進去了第幾條\n\n05:08.604 --> 05:14.545\n十五條裡面已經有針對吹哨者的機制來做處理。來來來,你把院版十五條唸給大家聽。好,感謝委員。公共危險物品這些大管這兩時,應該製造的場所進行處理。那所以呢?還沒結束。後面應該是在後面的條裡面,這些場所,\n\n05:41.945 --> 06:08.002\n我現在是說基層申訴違反職啊你說有吹哨的保護機制在第幾條15條講的是什麼15條講的是有關於15條公共危險這個是場所的問題耶跟委員報告公務員保障法這邊這個公務人員的吹哨應該是回到公務人員的安慰辦法27條28條所以嘛是我剛說月版的消防法沒有嘛是\n\n06:08.642 --> 06:17.385\n三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。\n\n06:34.632 --> 07:00.743\n公務人員安全衛生辦法30條我不是寫在上面給你看嗎?違反對於吹哨者的保護去追殺他接下來的罰則是什麼?有嗎?你說在院版的消防法有,我就跟你講沒有嘛!還在這邊公開胡扯!所以我問你消防法第幾條你講不出來嘛!你胡亂引15條!你以為大家不會看法條喔?\n\n07:02.202 --> 07:27.613\n十五條是你講的嗎那你說要回到安慰辦法就現在規範保障不足嘛所以我請教你嘛違反崔少澤保障他的法則在哪裡有寫嗎你看一下職業安全衛生法有沒有崔少澤保護的條款有耶法律要件法律效果都有耶你們的消防法根本沒有啊\n\n07:28.615 --> 07:54.395\n公務人員安全衛生辦法也沒有罰則你剛剛好意思在這邊講你們現在提供的保障比安慰辦法還要高來再往下沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網要對誰究責依照你們的版本這個是職業安全衛生法有的嘛沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網對誰究責\n\n08:00.547 --> 08:04.092\n欸署長你怎麼對你們自己研擬這麼久的法案這麼不熟啊?\n\n08:05.161 --> 08:27.647\n兩部分公務人員對於他的員工出問題涉及到堵職這方面這個是有回歸到公務人員服務法這方面的處理我現在問你的是院版的消防法規範在哪裡我條文都幫你整理出來了委員關心的消防人員出問題的一個保障就回過到這個機制好針對委員所提出的署長感謝社會公務員報告室報告室報告感謝\n\n08:33.388 --> 08:55.202\n我這樣說好了啦你上面寫的要對誰究責非常的荒謬啊你要處罰誰中央主管機關上級機關通知限期改善沒有改善要處3萬元以上30萬元以下罰款你要罰的是誰各級消防機關喔中央地方去罰消防局喔阿這樣是有什麼嚇阻的效果\n\n08:56.462 --> 09:24.218\n你作為消防署的署長我等你的法案等這麼久你可以不守到這種程度還在上面胡扯讓人嘆為觀止跟委員報告是不是給我一點時間我們會後再跟委員詳細報告目前是直接用法律面的執行怎麼用輔導的方式來執行讓消防能夠走得更穩更健全如果不需要法律只要輔導現在消防弟兄就不會發出怒吼了啦\n\n09:25.512 --> 09:26.154\n兩者相互搭配\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.623,"end":8.344,"text":"今天在處理關於消防法的修正草案,重中之重,大概是非常多消防弟兄他們期待的,也就是職業安全、衛生、保護的問題。現在在法規上面,消防弟兄把他放在的是跟公務員一樣,二辦法。"},{"start":33.098,"end":44.006,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":50.131,"end":62.75,"text":"當然,安慰辦法的修正、強化這個是保訓會跟人事總署必須要面對的問題,但我們先處理消防弟兄關心的事情。"},{"start":63.73,"end":81.713,"text":"過去這個安慰辦法該修沒有修該推動沒有推動大家全部都在踢皮球現在搞到要到消防法裡面去設專章不過目前基層消防員的訴求是全部納入《治安法》當中今天早上"},{"start":82.728,"end":104.383,"text":"今天早上,消防員權益促進會發了一個聲明,他們再次的呼籲,他們不希望用消防法裡面的專章,他們希望全面納入《治安法》。對於我們基層消防弟兄這樣的訴求,部長有什麼回應?因為《治安法》的主管機關並不是內政部,我是不是可以請相關部位來回應一下好嗎?可以。"},{"start":111.115,"end":135.629,"text":"好 署長委員好 我是勞動部職安署有關職安法的部分確實在102年的時候修法的過程當中我們試著要討論要把公務員納入我們職安法可是在102年的時候已經定調就是我們公務員辦法的安全部分你說102年定調嗎是我們那個職安法修法的時候那時候我們是希望102年定調是2013年嗎是是那個時候還是馬政府時期嗎現在新的政府沒有新的思維嗎出了這麼多事情"},{"start":141.108,"end":168.57,"text":"這麼多寶貴的生命寶貴的家庭都破碎了所以我們現在是民進黨政府消歸潮水嗎?2013年的政策到2024年沒有重新檢討的必要嗎?對於消防弟兄希望全面納入治安法來請教署長消防署的署長您是所有消防弟兄的大家長啊所以該幫他們講話的就是你啊贊不贊成?"},{"start":169.4,"end":170.987,"text":"好,各位委員報告,是不是給我一點時間說明?"},{"start":174.804,"end":201.322,"text":"消防的職業安全絕對比勞工的職業安全還高。這我也應該可以來支持這個論點。那消防的職業安全也比一般公務員還高。所以整個盤點以後事實上我們兩個研究案在做處理。一個就是針對於消防到底用什麼法律案來確保我們的安全。所以在去年過去三年已經把美國的消防人員職業安全、日本東京的消防人員職業安全引進到台灣。"},{"start":202.703,"end":212.226,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":232.073,"end":247.762,"text":"我先跟署長確認一件事你要說明我也給你時間說明了剛你說我們消防弟兄的職業安全他的標準應該高於一般的職業安全嘛問題是你們目前消防法專章規範的密度有比治安法規範的密度高嗎這是我的問題"},{"start":248.692,"end":277.181,"text":"各位委員報告,治安法裡面所列的這些項目,相對應我們都列上去。有嗎?是在現在的草案上嗎?還是你未來要規定的質疑?相對應的方向,大章節我們都列進去。是在法案上嗎?還是未來你要去另外定質疑?是現在在草案上還是未來要定質疑?當然,法案絕對不可能全部涵括進去。所以你要另外定質疑是嗎?後面很多措施。來啊,我就直接給你看。"},{"start":278.376,"end":302.827,"text":"你說消防安全應該要比一般的勞工標準更高然後你們要把相關的規定放在草案裡面人家在職安法為什麼要用職安法因為職安法裡面針對僱主應該遵循的指引是鉅細靡遺的寫但你們現在所推出來的草案來我先問署長一件事有吹哨子的保護機制嗎已經列進去了第幾條"},{"start":308.604,"end":314.545,"text":"十五條裡面已經有針對吹哨者的機制來做處理。來來來,你把院版十五條唸給大家聽。好,感謝委員。公共危險物品這些大管這兩時,應該製造的場所進行處理。那所以呢?還沒結束。後面應該是在後面的條裡面,這些場所,"},{"start":341.945,"end":368.002,"text":"我現在是說基層申訴違反職啊你說有吹哨的保護機制在第幾條15條講的是什麼15條講的是有關於15條公共危險這個是場所的問題耶跟委員報告公務員保障法這邊這個公務人員的吹哨應該是回到公務人員的安慰辦法27條28條所以嘛是我剛說月版的消防法沒有嘛是"},{"start":368.642,"end":377.385,"text":"三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":394.632,"end":420.743,"text":"公務人員安全衛生辦法30條我不是寫在上面給你看嗎?違反對於吹哨者的保護去追殺他接下來的罰則是什麼?有嗎?你說在院版的消防法有,我就跟你講沒有嘛!還在這邊公開胡扯!所以我問你消防法第幾條你講不出來嘛!你胡亂引15條!你以為大家不會看法條喔?"},{"start":422.202,"end":447.613,"text":"十五條是你講的嗎那你說要回到安慰辦法就現在規範保障不足嘛所以我請教你嘛違反崔少澤保障他的法則在哪裡有寫嗎你看一下職業安全衛生法有沒有崔少澤保護的條款有耶法律要件法律效果都有耶你們的消防法根本沒有啊"},{"start":448.615,"end":474.395,"text":"公務人員安全衛生辦法也沒有罰則你剛剛好意思在這邊講你們現在提供的保障比安慰辦法還要高來再往下沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網要對誰究責依照你們的版本這個是職業安全衛生法有的嘛沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網對誰究責"},{"start":480.547,"end":484.092,"text":"欸署長你怎麼對你們自己研擬這麼久的法案這麼不熟啊?"},{"start":485.161,"end":507.647,"text":"兩部分公務人員對於他的員工出問題涉及到堵職這方面這個是有回歸到公務人員服務法這方面的處理我現在問你的是院版的消防法規範在哪裡我條文都幫你整理出來了委員關心的消防人員出問題的一個保障就回過到這個機制好 針對委員所提出的 署長感謝 社會公務員報告室報告室報告感謝"},{"start":513.388,"end":535.202,"text":"我這樣說好了啦你上面寫的要對誰究責非常的荒謬啊你要處罰誰中央主管機關上級機關通知限期改善沒有改善要處3萬元以上30萬元以下罰款你要罰的是誰各級消防機關喔中央地方去罰消防局喔阿這樣是有什麼嚇阻的效果"},{"start":536.462,"end":564.218,"text":"你作為消防署的署長我等你的法案等這麼久你可以不守到這種程度還在上面胡扯讓人嘆為觀止跟委員報告是不是給我一點時間我們會後再跟委員詳細報告目前是直接用法律面的執行怎麼用輔導的方式來執行讓消防能夠走得更穩更健全如果不需要法律只要輔導現在消防弟兄就不會發出怒吼了啦"},{"start":565.512,"end":566.154,"text":"兩者相互搭配"}]}}}}