{"id":154281,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154281","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd17c40943eab58b1b5a22d6087941f42bc3176ac657cb8ac9c10f22aa09be5a1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:26:08 - 11:35:53","影片長度":"00:09:45","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(6月26日僅進行詢答)\n【6月24日及26日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T11:26:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T11:35:53+08:00","duration":585,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":458,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時26分）謝謝主席，我們邀請鄭部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好！我想跟部長再強調一件事情，就是青春期是個人從童年過渡到成年的一個關鍵形成時期，所以確保青少年成長時期的心理健康和福祉，可以支持一個小孩好好長大成為一個健康的成人，前面其實有非常多的委員都有提到到底自殺的成因是什麼的問題，我們可以看到自傷跟自殺通報的人數呈上升趨勢，這一點其實我是給予肯定的，這表示我們有更多的管道讓他可以通報，同時也讓大家降低所謂的「自殺好像是我家裡教育不好」等等的因素，讓他願意來通報，所以對這一點我是肯定的。但是到底孩子為什麼會走上這條路？為什麼會造成這樣子的問題？我看到在臺大公衛學院健康行為與社區科學研究所張書森教授發表的「校園學生自我傷害的特徵與防治」文章中提到，自殺跟自傷的原因主要來自於精神跟家庭關係，但是我也想要強調一點，就是這裡面為什麼會造成精神疾病，家庭裡面到底發生了什麼事情，對這些我們還是需要更清楚地去瞭解。在自殺率部分，我們的趨勢大概跟世界差不多，也就是自殺成長率大概跟世界是走在差不多的一個趨勢的狀況之下，對此聯合國也有強調一件事情，亦即我們如果要更瞭解而且防治，就必須瞭解後面這些複雜的原因，所以我希望在修正學輔法的過程之中，我們必須要更清楚地去做一些本土的研究，瞭解一些真正的原因，才能夠採取相對應的一些措施。同時我想要特別提醒部長，就是在世界的研究裡面，其實中低收入家庭的風險是更高的，對這部分的研究，目前我沒有找到相關的資訊，請問你們現在有關於中低收入這些自殺風險的研究嗎？如果沒有也沒關係，之後我們來做這些研究，可以嗎？部長，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["張委員雅琳：再來就是我知道教育部其實已經有對大學的部分投入這些預算，去配比這些人力，但是我們也可以看到大學生自傷自殺死亡人次創歷史新高，節節上升。2023年的報導者其實有針對心輔的議題做了一系列的報導，當中其實有強調說「他們被賦予重任，可是困難重重」，例如不合理的薪資待遇，這點剛剛也都有委員提到，比如身分定位不明、行政業務龐大、學生狀況複雜等等，我們也有收到現場老師的陳情，表示我們雖然補了人力，可是學校會叫他去做其他的事情，例如叫他去辦活動、叫他去做行政工作，所以變成即便我們補了人力，可是他並沒有真正去回應現場的狀況。再來就是薪資不足的問題，這點也造成他們其實不願意來到這邊，可是如果我們的流動率這麼高，就沒有辦法讓個案得以跟輔導人力產生信任關係，所以這件事情是非常重要的，我剛剛也聽到部長承諾會去做一些回應，我想要請教的是針對現場這些大專專輔人力是否可設法去更積極的督導而不是只是勸說？不能只是勸大學說不要讓他做行政工作，我們有沒有更積極的措施呢？可不可以請部長還是司長就這點給我一個回復？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，我們有推動大專的輔導工作評鑑，會把有關專任輔導人員專職投入在學生的輔導以及如何建立合理的待遇跟晉薪制度列入評鑑的指標當中。"],["張委員雅琳：請問這個什麼時候上路？"],["吳司長林輝：其實從112年就已經正式上路了，剛才提到的這些其實已經納入指標當中，如果有發現不合格的狀況，我們後續一定會追蹤輔導。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個報告是不是也可以提供到我們辦公室？謝謝！再來就是我看到我們專輔人力的整體聘任率只有八成，我不曉得除了薪資還有行政工作太多之外還有什麼其他的原因，不知道教育部對此有沒有掌握？為什麼只達到八成？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，實聘這部分當然有些是基於地方在經費上的考量，另外還有一個就是在專業人力上，有時候培育的速度趕不上我們政策上的需求，這是一個可能，還有勞動人力等，這些當然對整體而言都是可能的影響因素。"],["張委員雅琳：好喔！你們有信心可在113年補齊嗎？還是你們的目標是在什麼時候補齊？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，在學生輔導法公布施行後，我們會要求也希望各地方政府能夠體認心理輔導的一個重要性，對城市小孩教育品質上的……"],["張委員雅琳：理解，那你們的目標是在什麼時候會把這些相關人力補齊？有一個具體的時程嗎？還是目前還沒有？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們目前國中的部分是……"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告一下，委員可以看到應聘數是我們已經編列經費，等著可以用的，實聘數是實際上縣市用到的，目前經過努力，本來是79%，經過委員提醒還有一些方法的改變，譬如說薪點調高、加補交通費等等，比率已經到達84%，經過這樣的努力還有透過一些考核跟每個月逐月跟個別縣市檢討，但這可能要給地方一點時間，其中有221個是偏遠地區用的，偏遠的充實率也大概只有到百分之七十幾，所以不管是偏遠或一般地區，各有各的不同努力方式，縣市間也有一點不同，我們會跟每個縣市做盤點，對每個縣市個別給予協助。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解，這部分我們就積極保持聯絡。","其次是臺灣憂鬱症防治協會理事長吳佳儀之前有提到說七成的精神疾病其實可以回溯到12歲至18歲，因此高中以下的疾病辨識與早期就醫更為重要，否則累積到後面到一個比較嚴重的程度，屆時自殺風險就會提高。我知道目前衛福部針對15歲到30歲有心理諮商需求的朋友提供3次免費心理諮商，但是我上次就此質詢部長的時候，部長也有承諾會針對12歲到15歲的部分儘快來做，看看是不是能夠給這段已經在提高自殺風險的族群也提供這些心理諮商的機會，我知道上禮拜衛福部跟教育部有開會，所以我想要知道現在相關的進度是什麼，可不可以說明一下？"],["彭署長富源：上禮拜已經有跟衛福部會商過，衛福部會按照他們原來已經規劃的經驗繼續來跟我們、相關的學者專家還有公協會一起做比較詳細的規劃，而且要向下延伸。"],["張委員雅琳：大概什麼時候會做這些詳細的規劃？有時程嗎？"],["彭署長富源：三個月內。"],["張委員雅琳：三個月內？好，那我們三個月之後再來做這件事情，我覺得這件事非常重要。","再下一個我要講的是，其實有八成的小孩不願意去輔導室求助，其中的原因很多，比如他可能不想跟老師談話，或是他覺得老師根本幫不上他的忙，或是他去就會被貼標籤，這些都是導致學生不願意去的原因，我們現在其實已經要大規模的去提升這部分的人力，可是如果學生不願意去，問題還是沒辦法解決。所以為提升學生去的意願，我建議可以在學生輔導諮詢會議裡面納入兒少代表，更清楚的掌握現場的狀況，如此方能使我們推出的這些服務、輔導設備或設施讓小孩真正的使用，請問這件事情可不可以做到？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們現在本來就在規劃增加學生的代表。"],["張委員雅琳：現在已經有規劃了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：對。"],["張委員雅琳：好。抱歉！我再花30秒的時間。現在高中已經有試辦心理假了，可是你們說118學年度就要全面上路，那你們有沒有掌握現在試辦的狀況？什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討？這樣才能確保我們在113學年上路的時候真正是可以為小孩所用的。你們有沒有做這些檢討？有嗎？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，我們會在6月28號就現行試辦學校的經驗、困難在哪裡、應該要怎麼解決等召開會議，來訂定113學年的注意事項。"],["張委員雅琳：這部分詳細的辦法再提供給我。謝謝主席！"],["主席：接下來請吳春城委員、吳春城委員、吳春城委員不在。","本席剛剛已經說了，在吳春城委員發言之後就處理臨時提案，現在進行處理。今天有委員提出2案臨時提案，請宣讀。","一、","國立台灣體育運動大學於中華民國足球協會之企業甲級聯賽、乙級聯賽參賽具悠久歷史，然近日卻驚傳其參賽權利遭轉讓至民間公司，查該賽事參賽現仍需資格賽等競爭機制，如可不經資格賽即可取得參賽資格，除可免除相關參賽成本外，亦可排除於資格賽中遭淘汰之風險，故可見該參賽權利本身即具有一定商業價值，故本次轉讓應視為國立大學無形資產遭轉移至民間單位樣態。","然詳閱台體大函復教育部高等教育司就本案之說明，無論是「故學校對於最後轉讓申請知悉」、或「本案經教練團評估……，於球隊內部……釐清相關權利問題後（無會議紀錄）」、或「倘後續學生與公司間有任何權利義務爭議，本校將由男子足球教練團偕同學生與公司做進一步溝通與協調」，均可見相關流程除未經校方參與，亦不符合任何正式會議程序，甚至在後續如出現權益問題，竟係以教練團人員作為代表人。此種恣意處份國立大學無形資產、將學生參賽權益置於不受監督之私人單位作法，無異是將國立大學資產視為禁臠。更遑論於相關函復中，更是以「此作法係經參酌台北展翼、陽信女子足球、AC TAIPAI台北競技隊名變更參賽辦理。」明顯將「更名」與「權利轉讓」兩種完全不同層次之作法混為一談，粉飾台體大自此永久喪失相關參賽權利事實，其欺騙高教司、立法院之意圖昭然可見。","鑒於任何國立大學之有形或無形資產，均不應為一人、一隊或少數教練所有，甚至是以先斬後奏形式逼迫校方承認，造成既成事實後再宣稱「未來將更精進相關內部行政作業規範」，為避免此例一開，成為各國立大學有心人士侵吞學校權利濫觴，爰請教育部高等教育司針對本案相關權利轉讓之合理性與必要性以及有無損害國立大學權益等面向啟動專案行政調查，並邀請專家學者提供客觀意見後於1個月內做出報告，如確實有違反國立大學相關法規則應移送監察院，並要求國立台灣體育運動大學應向廠商索回相關參賽權利，以維高教尊嚴與學校資產並確實保障學生參賽權益。","提案人：陳培瑜　　范　雲　　郭昱晴","二、","有鑑於「學生輔導法」修法程序恐超過113學年度各級學校聘用專任輔導教師期間，為避免各級學校因少子化衝擊減班，造成學生輔導中斷影響學生發展，請教育部針對113學年度因減班導致專任輔導教師可能異動部分允以於「學生輔導法」修正施行前依112學年度核定之員額辦理，以維護學生輔導權益，相關補助經費由教育部依據「教育部國民及學前教育署補助公立國民中學及國民小學置輔導教師實施要點」辦理，其他增加專任輔導教師仍依照地方政府實際需求辦理聘用。","提案人：郭昱晴　　陳培瑜　　張雅琳"],["主席：有關第一案，各位委員有沒有問題？提案委員寫得非常清楚了。教育部？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟主席報告，我們會配合辦理。"],["主席：第一案照案通過。","第二案的提案委員也講得非常的清楚，教育部？"],["鄭部長英耀：配合辦理。"],["主席：謝謝部長，兩案都照案通過。","接下來請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-17","speakers":["柯志恩","陳秀寳","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","羅智強","陳菁徽","葛如鈞","范雲","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳亭妃","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","林憶君","王育敏","吳春城","林月琴"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人\n擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員李柏毅等 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0.896}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 562.241, \"end\": 562.361, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 562.361, \"end\": 562.381, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"擬\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,371 --> 00:00:05,314\n謝謝主席,我們邀請鄭部長。好,部長。謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:14,266 --> 00:00:39,319\n委員好部長好我想跟部長再強調一件事情就是青春期是個人從童年過渡到成年的一個關鍵形成時期所以確保青少年成長時期的心理健康和福祉是可以支持一個小孩好好的長大成為一個健康的成人那前面其實有非常多的委員都有提到有關於\n\n3\n00:00:42,041 --> 00:01:03,309\n到底自殺的成因是什麼就是我們可以看到自殺跟自殺通報的人數呈上升的趨勢這一點其實我是給予肯定的表示我們有更多的管道讓他可以通報也同時我們讓大家去降低所謂的我自殺好像是我家裡教育不好等等的因素讓他願意來通報所以這一點我是肯定的但是呢\n\n4\n00:01:04,309 --> 00:01:30,681\n到底孩子為什麼會走上這條路為什麼會造成這樣子的問題我是有看到這個臺大的公衛學院健康行為與社區科學研究所張書生教授發表的校園學生自我傷害的特徵與防治的文章是有提到說自殺跟智商的原因主要來自於精神跟家庭關係但是我也想要強調就是說這裡面為什麼會造成精神疾病\n\n5\n00:01:53,587 --> 00:02:15,836\n所以我也希望在我們學輔導法修正的這個過程之中我們也必須要更清楚地去做一些本土的研究了解我們一些真正的原因才能夠採取相對應的一些措施同時我想要特別提醒部長就是關於中低收入的家庭其實在世界研究上面風險是更高的\n\n6\n00:02:16,216 --> 00:02:32,228\n此部分的研究我目前是沒有找到相關的資訊,如果有,現在是有嗎?有相關對於中低收入的這些自殺風險的研究嗎?我們學生有這些研究嗎?如果沒有的話沒關係,之後我們做這些研究好不好?可以嗎?可以嗎?部長好不好?\n\n7\n00:02:33,510 --> 00:02:47,989\n接下來就是說,我們現在雖然已經要投入了,我們現在已經有投入了,我知道教育部其實已經有對大學的部分去投入預算去配比這些人力,但是我們也可以看到就是歷史新高,節節上升。\n\n8\n00:02:50,925 --> 00:03:16,713\n那2023年報導者其實有針對於新府的議題做了一系列的報導其中其實有強調說他們被賦予重任可是困難重重例如就是說可能是不合理的薪資待遇這剛剛其實也都有委員都有提到身份定位不明行政業務龐大學生狀況複雜而我們也有收到現場的老師來澄清說我們雖然補了人力可是學校會叫他去做其他的事情\n\n9\n00:03:17,513 --> 00:03:41,930\n例如叫他去辦活動例如叫他做行政工作所以這個變成說我們補了人力可是他並沒有真正去回應現場的狀況再來就是說這個薪資的一個不足啦薪資的不足也造成他們其實不願意來到這邊可是如果我們今天流動率這麼高我們就沒有辦法讓個案可以跟輔導人力\n\n10\n00:03:43,351 --> 00:03:45,813\n審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬\n\n11\n00:04:10,899 --> 00:04:25,847\n我們有推動這個大專的輔導工作評鑑我們會把有關於專任輔導人員專職投入在學生的輔導以及如何建立合理的待遇跟進行制度會列入評鑑的指標當中\n\n12\n00:04:27,468 --> 00:04:55,098\n此時何時上路呢?其實已經從1、2開始已經正式上路了我們剛才這樣的一個指標其實已經納入指標當中如果有發現不合格的狀況我們後續一定會追蹤輔導好謝謝那這個報告是不是也可以提供到我們辦公室好不好謝謝那再來就是說因為我也看到我們專輔人力整體聘任只有八成那我不曉得原因是除了薪資還有行政工作太多還是還有什麼其他的原因這不知道教育部有沒有掌握呢為什麼只有到八成\n\n13\n00:04:58,888 --> 00:05:22,910\n我想跟委員報告,當然這裡邊這個實聘當然有一些是地方這個經會的考量嘛。那另外還有一個就是專業人力上,事實上他有時候他培養的速度趕不上我們政策上的這個需求,這當然也都是一個可能。那勞動人力當然這整體都是可能的一個影響因素。\n\n14\n00:05:24,229 --> 00:05:53,292\n好喔,那我們是有信心在11、3年補期嗎?還是我們目標在什麼時候要補期呢?跟委員報告,確實我們現在這個學生輔導法以後我們是會要求也希望跟地方政府能夠體認這一個心理輔導的一個重要性對這個城市小孩的一個教育品質上的理解理解,那我們的目標是在什麼時候會把這些相關人力補期,我們有一個具體的時程嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:55,524 --> 00:06:21,775\n還是目前還沒有?跟委員報告我們目前國中的部分是...跟委員報告一下,委員可以看到應聘數是那個是我們已經編列經費等著可以用,實聘數是實際上現在是用到目前經過努力本來是79,經過委員提醒還有一些方法的改變,比如說新點調高加補交通費等等,已經到達84%,經過這樣的努力還有\n\n16\n00:06:25,196 --> 00:06:25,736\n一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬\n\n17\n00:06:48,166 --> 00:07:10,413\n好,了解。好,那這部分我們就積極來保持聯絡啦。好,那再下一個就是說,因為其實臺灣自殺憂鬱症防治協會理事長吳嘉義,他之前有提到說7成的精神疾病其實可以回溯到12到18歲。因此高中以下的疾病辨識與早期就醫是更為的重要。但你累積到後面其實是一個比較嚴重的程度,我們的自殺風險就會提高。\n\n18\n00:07:11,713 --> 00:07:40,630\n所以我們我知道目前我們衛福部是有針對15到30歲有這個心理諮商需求的朋友提供三次的免費心理諮商但是我上次也有就是質詢部長的時候部長也有承諾就是說針對12歲到15歲的部分我們會盡快來做看是不是能夠提供給這一段已經在提高這個自殺風險的族群呢也有這些心理諮商的機會我知道上禮拜衛福部跟教育部其實是有開會所以我想要知道現在相關的進度是什麼可不可以說明一下\n\n19\n00:07:44,561 --> 00:07:52,351\n上禮拜已經有跟衛福部會商過接著衛福部會繼續按照他們原來已經規劃的經驗繼續來跟我們在相關的學者專家還有工協會一起做比較詳細的規劃而且要向下延伸\n\n20\n00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:00,381\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬\n\n21\n00:08:29,820 --> 00:08:33,762\n一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n22\n00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:20,119\n我們現在本來就在規劃就增加這個學生的代表現在已經有規劃了是嗎對對對對好那抱歉我可以再花30秒30秒就好就是說就是因為我們現在高中已經有生理假了吼已經有試辦了可是我們說11、80年度就要全面上路了我們真的有沒有去掌握現在試辦的一個狀況我們什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討\n\n23\n00:09:21,420 --> 00:09:22,381\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4371\t5314\t謝謝主席,我們邀請鄭部長。好,部長。謝謝\n14266\t39319\t委員好部長好我想跟部長再強調一件事情就是青春期是個人從童年過渡到成年的一個關鍵形成時期所以確保青少年成長時期的心理健康和福祉是可以支持一個小孩好好的長大成為一個健康的成人那前面其實有非常多的委員都有提到有關於\n42041\t63309\t到底自殺的成因是什麼就是我們可以看到自殺跟自殺通報的人數呈上升的趨勢這一點其實我是給予肯定的表示我們有更多的管道讓他可以通報也同時我們讓大家去降低所謂的我自殺好像是我家裡教育不好等等的因素讓他願意來通報所以這一點我是肯定的但是呢\n64309\t90681\t到底孩子為什麼會走上這條路為什麼會造成這樣子的問題我是有看到這個臺大的公衛學院健康行為與社區科學研究所張書生教授發表的校園學生自我傷害的特徵與防治的文章是有提到說自殺跟智商的原因主要來自於精神跟家庭關係但是我也想要強調就是說這裡面為什麼會造成精神疾病\n90981\t113387\t﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏\n113587\t135836\t所以我也希望在我們學輔導法修正的這個過程之中我們也必須要更清楚地去做一些本土的研究了解我們一些真正的原因才能夠採取相對應的一些措施同時我想要特別提醒部長就是關於中低收入的家庭其實在世界研究上面風險是更高的\n136216\t152228\t此部分的研究我目前是沒有找到相關的資訊,如果有,現在是有嗎?有相關對於中低收入的這些自殺風險的研究嗎?我們學生有這些研究嗎?如果沒有的話沒關係,之後我們做這些研究好不好?可以嗎?可以嗎?部長好不好?\n153510\t167989\t接下來就是說,我們現在雖然已經要投入了,我們現在已經有投入了,我知道教育部其實已經有對大學的部分去投入預算去配比這些人力,但是我們也可以看到就是歷史新高,節節上升。\n170925\t196713\t那2023年報導者其實有針對於新府的議題做了一系列的報導其中其實有強調說他們被賦予重任可是困難重重例如就是說可能是不合理的薪資待遇這剛剛其實也都有委員都有提到身份定位不明行政業務龐大學生狀況複雜而我們也有收到現場的老師來澄清說我們雖然補了人力可是學校會叫他去做其他的事情\n197513\t221930\t例如叫他去辦活動例如叫他做行政工作所以這個變成說我們補了人力可是他並沒有真正去回應現場的狀況再來就是說這個薪資的一個不足啦薪資的不足也造成他們其實不願意來到這邊可是如果我們今天流動率這麼高我們就沒有辦法讓個案可以跟輔導人力\n223351\t225813\t審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬\n250899\t265847\t我們有推動這個大專的輔導工作評鑑我們會把有關於專任輔導人員專職投入在學生的輔導以及如何建立合理的待遇跟進行制度會列入評鑑的指標當中\n267468\t295098\t此時何時上路呢?其實已經從1、2開始已經正式上路了我們剛才這樣的一個指標其實已經納入指標當中如果有發現不合格的狀況我們後續一定會追蹤輔導好 謝謝那這個報告是不是也可以提供到我們辦公室好不好 謝謝那再來就是說因為我也看到我們專輔人力整體聘任只有八成那我不曉得原因是除了薪資還有行政工作太多還是還有什麼其他的原因這不知道教育部有沒有掌握呢為什麼只有到八成\n298888\t322910\t我想跟委員報告,當然這裡邊這個實聘當然有一些是地方這個經會的考量嘛。那另外還有一個就是專業人力上,事實上他有時候他培養的速度趕不上我們政策上的這個需求,這當然也都是一個可能。那勞動人力當然這整體都是可能的一個影響因素。\n324229\t353292\t好喔,那我們是有信心在11、3年補期嗎?還是我們目標在什麼時候要補期呢?跟委員報告,確實我們現在這個學生輔導法以後我們是會要求也希望跟地方政府能夠體認這一個心理輔導的一個重要性對這個城市小孩的一個教育品質上的理解理解,那我們的目標是在什麼時候會把這些相關人力補期,我們有一個具體的時程嗎?\n355524\t381775\t還是目前還沒有?跟委員報告我們目前國中的部分是...跟委員報告一下,委員可以看到應聘數是那個是我們已經編列經費等著可以用,實聘數是實際上現在是用到目前經過努力本來是79,經過委員提醒還有一些方法的改變,比如說新點調高加補交通費等等,已經到達84%,經過這樣的努力還有\n385196\t385736\t一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬\n408166\t430413\t好,了解。好,那這部分我們就積極來保持聯絡啦。好,那再下一個就是說,因為其實臺灣自殺憂鬱症防治協會理事長吳嘉義,他之前有提到說7成的精神疾病其實可以回溯到12到18歲。因此高中以下的疾病辨識與早期就醫是更為的重要。但你累積到後面其實是一個比較嚴重的程度,我們的自殺風險就會提高。\n431713\t460630\t所以我們我知道目前我們衛福部是有針對15到30歲有這個心理諮商需求的朋友提供三次的免費心理諮商但是我上次也有就是質詢部長的時候部長也有承諾就是說針對12歲到15歲的部分我們會盡快來做看是不是能夠提供給這一段已經在提高這個自殺風險的族群呢也有這些心理諮商的機會我知道上禮拜衛福部跟教育部其實是有開會所以我想要知道現在相關的進度是什麼可不可以說明一下\n464561\t472351\t上禮拜已經有跟衛福部會商過接著衛福部會繼續按照他們原來已經規劃的經驗繼續來跟我們在相關的學者專家還有工協會一起做比較詳細的規劃而且要向下延伸\n479480\t480381\t三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬\n509820\t513762\t一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案。\n539960\t560119\t我們現在本來就在規劃就增加這個學生的代表現在已經有規劃了是嗎 對對對對好那抱歉我可以再花30秒30秒就好就是說就是因為我們現在高中已經有生理假了吼已經有試辦了可是我們說11、80年度就要全面上路了我們真的有沒有去掌握現在試辦的一個狀況我們什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討\n561420\t562381\t三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們邀請鄭部長。好,部長。謝謝\n委員好部長好我想跟部長再強調一件事情就是青春期是個人從童年過渡到成年的一個關鍵形成時期所以確保青少年成長時期的心理健康和福祉是可以支持一個小孩好好的長大成為一個健康的成人那前面其實有非常多的委員都有提到有關於\n到底自殺的成因是什麼就是我們可以看到自殺跟自殺通報的人數呈上升的趨勢這一點其實我是給予肯定的表示我們有更多的管道讓他可以通報也同時我們讓大家去降低所謂的我自殺好像是我家裡教育不好等等的因素讓他願意來通報所以這一點我是肯定的但是呢\n到底孩子為什麼會走上這條路為什麼會造成這樣子的問題我是有看到這個臺大的公衛學院健康行為與社區科學研究所張書生教授發表的校園學生自我傷害的特徵與防治的文章是有提到說自殺跟智商的原因主要來自於精神跟家庭關係但是我也想要強調就是說這裡面為什麼會造成精神疾病\n﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏\n所以我也希望在我們學輔導法修正的這個過程之中我們也必須要更清楚地去做一些本土的研究了解我們一些真正的原因才能夠採取相對應的一些措施同時我想要特別提醒部長就是關於中低收入的家庭其實在世界研究上面風險是更高的\n此部分的研究我目前是沒有找到相關的資訊,如果有,現在是有嗎?有相關對於中低收入的這些自殺風險的研究嗎?我們學生有這些研究嗎?如果沒有的話沒關係,之後我們做這些研究好不好?可以嗎?可以嗎?部長好不好?\n接下來就是說,我們現在雖然已經要投入了,我們現在已經有投入了,我知道教育部其實已經有對大學的部分去投入預算去配比這些人力,但是我們也可以看到就是歷史新高,節節上升。\n那2023年報導者其實有針對於新府的議題做了一系列的報導其中其實有強調說他們被賦予重任可是困難重重例如就是說可能是不合理的薪資待遇這剛剛其實也都有委員都有提到身份定位不明行政業務龐大學生狀況複雜而我們也有收到現場的老師來澄清說我們雖然補了人力可是學校會叫他去做其他的事情\n例如叫他去辦活動例如叫他做行政工作所以這個變成說我們補了人力可是他並沒有真正去回應現場的狀況再來就是說這個薪資的一個不足啦薪資的不足也造成他們其實不願意來到這邊可是如果我們今天流動率這麼高我們就沒有辦法讓個案可以跟輔導人力\n審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬\n我們有推動這個大專的輔導工作評鑑我們會把有關於專任輔導人員專職投入在學生的輔導以及如何建立合理的待遇跟進行制度會列入評鑑的指標當中\n此時何時上路呢?其實已經從1、2開始已經正式上路了我們剛才這樣的一個指標其實已經納入指標當中如果有發現不合格的狀況我們後續一定會追蹤輔導好 謝謝那這個報告是不是也可以提供到我們辦公室好不好 謝謝那再來就是說因為我也看到我們專輔人力整體聘任只有八成那我不曉得原因是除了薪資還有行政工作太多還是還有什麼其他的原因這不知道教育部有沒有掌握呢為什麼只有到八成\n我想跟委員報告,當然這裡邊這個實聘當然有一些是地方這個經會的考量嘛。那另外還有一個就是專業人力上,事實上他有時候他培養的速度趕不上我們政策上的這個需求,這當然也都是一個可能。那勞動人力當然這整體都是可能的一個影響因素。\n好喔,那我們是有信心在11、3年補期嗎?還是我們目標在什麼時候要補期呢?跟委員報告,確實我們現在這個學生輔導法以後我們是會要求也希望跟地方政府能夠體認這一個心理輔導的一個重要性對這個城市小孩的一個教育品質上的理解理解,那我們的目標是在什麼時候會把這些相關人力補期,我們有一個具體的時程嗎?\n還是目前還沒有?跟委員報告我們目前國中的部分是...跟委員報告一下,委員可以看到應聘數是那個是我們已經編列經費等著可以用,實聘數是實際上現在是用到目前經過努力本來是79,經過委員提醒還有一些方法的改變,比如說新點調高加補交通費等等,已經到達84%,經過這樣的努力還有\n一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬\n好,了解。好,那這部分我們就積極來保持聯絡啦。好,那再下一個就是說,因為其實臺灣自殺憂鬱症防治協會理事長吳嘉義,他之前有提到說7成的精神疾病其實可以回溯到12到18歲。因此高中以下的疾病辨識與早期就醫是更為的重要。但你累積到後面其實是一個比較嚴重的程度,我們的自殺風險就會提高。\n所以我們我知道目前我們衛福部是有針對15到30歲有這個心理諮商需求的朋友提供三次的免費心理諮商但是我上次也有就是質詢部長的時候部長也有承諾就是說針對12歲到15歲的部分我們會盡快來做看是不是能夠提供給這一段已經在提高這個自殺風險的族群呢也有這些心理諮商的機會我知道上禮拜衛福部跟教育部其實是有開會所以我想要知道現在相關的進度是什麼可不可以說明一下\n上禮拜已經有跟衛福部會商過接著衛福部會繼續按照他們原來已經規劃的經驗繼續來跟我們在相關的學者專家還有工協會一起做比較詳細的規劃而且要向下延伸\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬\n一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案。\n我們現在本來就在規劃就增加這個學生的代表現在已經有規劃了是嗎 對對對對好那抱歉我可以再花30秒30秒就好就是說就是因為我們現在高中已經有生理假了吼已經有試辦了可是我們說11、80年度就要全面上路了我們真的有沒有去掌握現在試辦的一個狀況我們什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.371 --> 00:05.314\n謝謝主席,我們邀請鄭部長。好,部長。謝謝\n\n00:14.266 --> 00:39.319\n委員好部長好我想跟部長再強調一件事情就是青春期是個人從童年過渡到成年的一個關鍵形成時期所以確保青少年成長時期的心理健康和福祉是可以支持一個小孩好好的長大成為一個健康的成人那前面其實有非常多的委員都有提到有關於\n\n00:42.041 --> 01:03.309\n到底自殺的成因是什麼就是我們可以看到自殺跟自殺通報的人數呈上升的趨勢這一點其實我是給予肯定的表示我們有更多的管道讓他可以通報也同時我們讓大家去降低所謂的我自殺好像是我家裡教育不好等等的因素讓他願意來通報所以這一點我是肯定的但是呢\n\n01:04.309 --> 01:30.681\n到底孩子為什麼會走上這條路為什麼會造成這樣子的問題我是有看到這個臺大的公衛學院健康行為與社區科學研究所張書生教授發表的校園學生自我傷害的特徵與防治的文章是有提到說自殺跟智商的原因主要來自於精神跟家庭關係但是我也想要強調就是說這裡面為什麼會造成精神疾病\n\n01:53.587 --> 02:15.836\n所以我也希望在我們學輔導法修正的這個過程之中我們也必須要更清楚地去做一些本土的研究了解我們一些真正的原因才能夠採取相對應的一些措施同時我想要特別提醒部長就是關於中低收入的家庭其實在世界研究上面風險是更高的\n\n02:16.216 --> 02:32.228\n此部分的研究我目前是沒有找到相關的資訊,如果有,現在是有嗎?有相關對於中低收入的這些自殺風險的研究嗎?我們學生有這些研究嗎?如果沒有的話沒關係,之後我們做這些研究好不好?可以嗎?可以嗎?部長好不好?\n\n02:33.510 --> 02:47.989\n接下來就是說,我們現在雖然已經要投入了,我們現在已經有投入了,我知道教育部其實已經有對大學的部分去投入預算去配比這些人力,但是我們也可以看到就是歷史新高,節節上升。\n\n02:50.925 --> 03:16.713\n那2023年報導者其實有針對於新府的議題做了一系列的報導其中其實有強調說他們被賦予重任可是困難重重例如就是說可能是不合理的薪資待遇這剛剛其實也都有委員都有提到身份定位不明行政業務龐大學生狀況複雜而我們也有收到現場的老師來澄清說我們雖然補了人力可是學校會叫他去做其他的事情\n\n03:17.513 --> 03:41.930\n例如叫他去辦活動例如叫他做行政工作所以這個變成說我們補了人力可是他並沒有真正去回應現場的狀況再來就是說這個薪資的一個不足啦薪資的不足也造成他們其實不願意來到這邊可是如果我們今天流動率這麼高我們就沒有辦法讓個案可以跟輔導人力\n\n03:43.351 --> 03:45.813\n審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬\n\n04:10.899 --> 04:25.847\n我們有推動這個大專的輔導工作評鑑我們會把有關於專任輔導人員專職投入在學生的輔導以及如何建立合理的待遇跟進行制度會列入評鑑的指標當中\n\n04:27.468 --> 04:55.098\n此時何時上路呢?其實已經從1、2開始已經正式上路了我們剛才這樣的一個指標其實已經納入指標當中如果有發現不合格的狀況我們後續一定會追蹤輔導好謝謝那這個報告是不是也可以提供到我們辦公室好不好謝謝那再來就是說因為我也看到我們專輔人力整體聘任只有八成那我不曉得原因是除了薪資還有行政工作太多還是還有什麼其他的原因這不知道教育部有沒有掌握呢為什麼只有到八成\n\n04:58.888 --> 05:22.910\n我想跟委員報告,當然這裡邊這個實聘當然有一些是地方這個經會的考量嘛。那另外還有一個就是專業人力上,事實上他有時候他培養的速度趕不上我們政策上的這個需求,這當然也都是一個可能。那勞動人力當然這整體都是可能的一個影響因素。\n\n05:24.229 --> 05:53.292\n好喔,那我們是有信心在11、3年補期嗎?還是我們目標在什麼時候要補期呢?跟委員報告,確實我們現在這個學生輔導法以後我們是會要求也希望跟地方政府能夠體認這一個心理輔導的一個重要性對這個城市小孩的一個教育品質上的理解理解,那我們的目標是在什麼時候會把這些相關人力補期,我們有一個具體的時程嗎?\n\n05:55.524 --> 06:21.775\n還是目前還沒有?跟委員報告我們目前國中的部分是...跟委員報告一下,委員可以看到應聘數是那個是我們已經編列經費等著可以用,實聘數是實際上現在是用到目前經過努力本來是79,經過委員提醒還有一些方法的改變,比如說新點調高加補交通費等等,已經到達84%,經過這樣的努力還有\n\n06:25.196 --> 06:25.736\n一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬\n\n06:48.166 --> 07:10.413\n好,了解。好,那這部分我們就積極來保持聯絡啦。好,那再下一個就是說,因為其實臺灣自殺憂鬱症防治協會理事長吳嘉義,他之前有提到說7成的精神疾病其實可以回溯到12到18歲。因此高中以下的疾病辨識與早期就醫是更為的重要。但你累積到後面其實是一個比較嚴重的程度,我們的自殺風險就會提高。\n\n07:11.713 --> 07:40.630\n所以我們我知道目前我們衛福部是有針對15到30歲有這個心理諮商需求的朋友提供三次的免費心理諮商但是我上次也有就是質詢部長的時候部長也有承諾就是說針對12歲到15歲的部分我們會盡快來做看是不是能夠提供給這一段已經在提高這個自殺風險的族群呢也有這些心理諮商的機會我知道上禮拜衛福部跟教育部其實是有開會所以我想要知道現在相關的進度是什麼可不可以說明一下\n\n07:44.561 --> 07:52.351\n上禮拜已經有跟衛福部會商過接著衛福部會繼續按照他們原來已經規劃的經驗繼續來跟我們在相關的學者專家還有工協會一起做比較詳細的規劃而且要向下延伸\n\n07:59.480 --> 08:00.381\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬\n\n08:29.820 --> 08:33.762\n一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n08:59.960 --> 09:20.119\n我們現在本來就在規劃就增加這個學生的代表現在已經有規劃了是嗎對對對對好那抱歉我可以再花30秒30秒就好就是說就是因為我們現在高中已經有生理假了吼已經有試辦了可是我們說11、80年度就要全面上路了我們真的有沒有去掌握現在試辦的一個狀況我們什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討\n\n09:21.420 --> 09:22.381\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.371,"end":5.314,"text":"謝謝主席,我們邀請鄭部長。好,部長。謝謝"},{"start":14.266,"end":39.319,"text":"委員好部長好我想跟部長再強調一件事情就是青春期是個人從童年過渡到成年的一個關鍵形成時期所以確保青少年成長時期的心理健康和福祉是可以支持一個小孩好好的長大成為一個健康的成人那前面其實有非常多的委員都有提到有關於"},{"start":42.041,"end":63.309,"text":"到底自殺的成因是什麼就是我們可以看到自殺跟自殺通報的人數呈上升的趨勢這一點其實我是給予肯定的表示我們有更多的管道讓他可以通報也同時我們讓大家去降低所謂的我自殺好像是我家裡教育不好等等的因素讓他願意來通報所以這一點我是肯定的但是呢"},{"start":64.309,"end":90.681,"text":"到底孩子為什麼會走上這條路為什麼會造成這樣子的問題我是有看到這個臺大的公衛學院健康行為與社區科學研究所張書生教授發表的校園學生自我傷害的特徵與防治的文章是有提到說自殺跟智商的原因主要來自於精神跟家庭關係但是我也想要強調就是說這裡面為什麼會造成精神疾病"},{"start":90.981,"end":113.387,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":113.587,"end":135.836,"text":"所以我也希望在我們學輔導法修正的這個過程之中我們也必須要更清楚地去做一些本土的研究了解我們一些真正的原因才能夠採取相對應的一些措施同時我想要特別提醒部長就是關於中低收入的家庭其實在世界研究上面風險是更高的"},{"start":136.216,"end":152.228,"text":"此部分的研究我目前是沒有找到相關的資訊,如果有,現在是有嗎?有相關對於中低收入的這些自殺風險的研究嗎?我們學生有這些研究嗎?如果沒有的話沒關係,之後我們做這些研究好不好?可以嗎?可以嗎?部長好不好?"},{"start":153.51,"end":167.989,"text":"接下來就是說,我們現在雖然已經要投入了,我們現在已經有投入了,我知道教育部其實已經有對大學的部分去投入預算去配比這些人力,但是我們也可以看到就是歷史新高,節節上升。"},{"start":170.925,"end":196.713,"text":"那2023年報導者其實有針對於新府的議題做了一系列的報導其中其實有強調說他們被賦予重任可是困難重重例如就是說可能是不合理的薪資待遇這剛剛其實也都有委員都有提到身份定位不明行政業務龐大學生狀況複雜而我們也有收到現場的老師來澄清說我們雖然補了人力可是學校會叫他去做其他的事情"},{"start":197.513,"end":221.93,"text":"例如叫他去辦活動例如叫他做行政工作所以這個變成說我們補了人力可是他並沒有真正去回應現場的狀況再來就是說這個薪資的一個不足啦薪資的不足也造成他們其實不願意來到這邊可是如果我們今天流動率這麼高我們就沒有辦法讓個案可以跟輔導人力"},{"start":223.351,"end":225.813,"text":"審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":250.899,"end":265.847,"text":"我們有推動這個大專的輔導工作評鑑我們會把有關於專任輔導人員專職投入在學生的輔導以及如何建立合理的待遇跟進行制度會列入評鑑的指標當中"},{"start":267.468,"end":295.098,"text":"此時何時上路呢?其實已經從1、2開始已經正式上路了我們剛才這樣的一個指標其實已經納入指標當中如果有發現不合格的狀況我們後續一定會追蹤輔導好 謝謝那這個報告是不是也可以提供到我們辦公室好不好 謝謝那再來就是說因為我也看到我們專輔人力整體聘任只有八成那我不曉得原因是除了薪資還有行政工作太多還是還有什麼其他的原因這不知道教育部有沒有掌握呢為什麼只有到八成"},{"start":298.888,"end":322.91,"text":"我想跟委員報告,當然這裡邊這個實聘當然有一些是地方這個經會的考量嘛。那另外還有一個就是專業人力上,事實上他有時候他培養的速度趕不上我們政策上的這個需求,這當然也都是一個可能。那勞動人力當然這整體都是可能的一個影響因素。"},{"start":324.229,"end":353.292,"text":"好喔,那我們是有信心在11、3年補期嗎?還是我們目標在什麼時候要補期呢?跟委員報告,確實我們現在這個學生輔導法以後我們是會要求也希望跟地方政府能夠體認這一個心理輔導的一個重要性對這個城市小孩的一個教育品質上的理解理解,那我們的目標是在什麼時候會把這些相關人力補期,我們有一個具體的時程嗎?"},{"start":355.524,"end":381.775,"text":"還是目前還沒有?跟委員報告我們目前國中的部分是...跟委員報告一下,委員可以看到應聘數是那個是我們已經編列經費等著可以用,實聘數是實際上現在是用到目前經過努力本來是79,經過委員提醒還有一些方法的改變,比如說新點調高加補交通費等等,已經到達84%,經過這樣的努力還有"},{"start":385.196,"end":385.736,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":408.166,"end":430.413,"text":"好,了解。好,那這部分我們就積極來保持聯絡啦。好,那再下一個就是說,因為其實臺灣自殺憂鬱症防治協會理事長吳嘉義,他之前有提到說7成的精神疾病其實可以回溯到12到18歲。因此高中以下的疾病辨識與早期就醫是更為的重要。但你累積到後面其實是一個比較嚴重的程度,我們的自殺風險就會提高。"},{"start":431.713,"end":460.63,"text":"所以我們我知道目前我們衛福部是有針對15到30歲有這個心理諮商需求的朋友提供三次的免費心理諮商但是我上次也有就是質詢部長的時候部長也有承諾就是說針對12歲到15歲的部分我們會盡快來做看是不是能夠提供給這一段已經在提高這個自殺風險的族群呢也有這些心理諮商的機會我知道上禮拜衛福部跟教育部其實是有開會所以我想要知道現在相關的進度是什麼可不可以說明一下"},{"start":464.561,"end":472.351,"text":"上禮拜已經有跟衛福部會商過接著衛福部會繼續按照他們原來已經規劃的經驗繼續來跟我們在相關的學者專家還有工協會一起做比較詳細的規劃而且要向下延伸"},{"start":479.48,"end":480.381,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":509.82,"end":513.762,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":539.96,"end":560.119,"text":"我們現在本來就在規劃就增加這個學生的代表現在已經有規劃了是嗎 對對對對好那抱歉我可以再花30秒30秒就好就是說就是因為我們現在高中已經有生理假了吼已經有試辦了可是我們說11、80年度就要全面上路了我們真的有沒有去掌握現在試辦的一個狀況我們什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討"},{"start":561.42,"end":562.381,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"}]}}}}