{"id":154282,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154282","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1fc32a6f8fdb38172309e96bb535257173176ac657cb8ac9c93f6943423fdd6745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:24:29 - 11:38:56","影片長度":"00:14:27","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員賴士葆等21人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅智強等24人分別擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T11:24:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T11:38:56+08:00","duration":867,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":29,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-29"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":425,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時24分）上一次總長來立院報告，其實已經是二十多年前，所以今天我想要請顧部長跟梅總長。"],["主席：請顧部長、梅總長。"],["顧部長立雄：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，當然我樂見看到國防部去貫徹部長跟總長的分工，所以我接下來的問題，我請兩位一起上臺，依照你們職權上的分工來進行回答。主要我想要先跟國防部來討論關於漢光演習的部分，我們都知道，這個火力展示的目的其實是為了向民眾來展現我們的國防戰力，我自己認為這也是全民國防教育的一環，這是要展現我們好的一部分，但是其實演習的目的是要來檢驗戰力，希望能夠找到改進的地方，所以其實反而是要來呈現風險比較高甚至是比較不好的一個部分，我們要怎麼來克服、怎麼來改善、怎麼來面對，怎麼讓大家有相關的準備，這兩者一直以來把它合在一起，其實坦白說一直會有一個彼此之間衝突的問題，看一下螢幕上面的圖片是2019年漢光，如果是用演習思維來說的話，照理來說，我們其實應該是要把它做分散的設置，包括偽裝陣地去處理這個問題，可是這個狀況，我們看到比較像是擺拍，如果比較直白地講，這比較像是擺拍。擺拍當然是要把我們相關的設施放到同一個景觀裡面，是用火力展示的思維在思考這張圖片裡面的布置，也因此我們的官兵又少了一次偽裝陣地的操演機會。所以我很樂見看到今年國防部標榜我們的漢光演習希望能夠所謂來真的，來真的這三個字講的簡單，可是做起來並不是一件這麼容易的事情。今天也有一些媒體朋友在現場，當我們要來真的時候，民眾在路上可能就會看到一些服裝儀容不一定那麼整齊，甚至維修拋錨輪車的這些狀況都可能會發生，因為這就是所謂來真的，我自己認為這才是演習的目的，因為真的打仗沒有在怕衣服髒，或者我們只做這些面子工程。可是接下來我想要問國防部，未來有沒有擴大將演習和火力展示澈底分開舉辦的規劃？"],["梅參謀總長家樹：報告委員，有關展示，不管是剛剛您提到的，對於民眾的信心，或是把我們實際的一些武器裝備籌獲之後展現給國人，還是有它的必要性。"],["洪委員申翰：當然。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：因為漢光演習是從去年12月份就開始規劃了，我們所有的也是做一個延續，委員的建議我們會考量如何去做，在符合單位的任務狀況，還有我們時間的配當，展示給國人還是有它的必要性。"],["洪委員申翰：我的意思不是今天我只獨尊演習，火力展示沒有必要，我的意思並不是這樣，而是怎麼讓這兩件事情之間的邏輯不要互相干擾，影響到這兩件事情本身的效益，如果真的要做，乾脆就更擴大，分開去處理，既可以達到我們希望演習的功能，在火力展示要讓大家對國防部有信心的部分，我覺得也可以進行，可是邏輯不要衝突，這是重點。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是的，我們會把它納入做完整的規劃，畢竟我們後面的戰力提升，新獲得的這些裝備如何展示給國人，讓國人有信心，我們一定會把它納入非常重要的考量。"],["洪委員申翰：好，接下來再往下細看，我們都知道目前漢光其實還是所謂計畫統裁的概念，簡單來說，它還是有一定的劇本，比方說前三天是紅軍占優勢，之後藍軍反攻，可是我們看到2023年的長青17號的操演裡面，已經看到在計畫統裁裡面開始實施所謂自由統裁的部分，其實已經在這裡面有看到了，我們未來會擴大自由統裁的部分嗎？"],["梅參謀總長家樹：跟委員報告，自由統裁其實最主要就是考驗這些指揮官，他能夠臨機判斷，然後下達他的指導，再由統裁部看他的作為，這確實是在實兵對抗的時候非常好的一種執行模式。"],["洪委員申翰：是，但是總長，我這邊也有幾個部分，有很多不同的專家學者給我們一些建議，他們也提醒如果要完成自由統裁有幾個重要的前提，第一個是要有完善的指管系統，比方，我們現在看到新加坡星光部隊的指管層級其實是可以到陸軍的單兵，他們把他們的GPS打開以後，指揮官就可以非常清楚地掌握到他們部隊的每一個，甚至到單兵裡面的位置，這個指揮系統可以一清二楚。可是我們陸軍為了要落實指管到連或是排，之前有委託中科院的銳指專案，但這個專案現在卻被審計部認為效能過低，甚至評測有嚴重的延誤，無法掌握部隊位置，無法即時應變，所以變成最後還是只能照劇本演練的狀況，我想請問國防部，這部分我們有沒有改進的計畫？"],["梅參謀總長家樹：跟委員報告，剛才您提到新加坡的例子，其實我們現階段確實在朝這個方向努力中，我等一下請陸軍司令部說明銳指系統，但是這個方向沒有變，而且我們可能會有一些成果。"],["洪委員申翰：但是現在問題是，我們的準備包括我們的作法上面要怎麼真的趨向這個方向？如果從銳指系統這個作法來看的話，現在反而被審計部做出這樣的評價，國防部要怎麼去處理這個部分？或有沒有什麼改善的作法？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這個銳指系統的建案部分應該可以有改善的地方，到達改善程度的時候，我們會把它納入，我們也會有完善的指管系統方案，但是這些部分我認為可能不適宜在公開場合做過多的說明，所以我們會把指管系統構建到一個我們認為完善的程度。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我這邊只是提醒，當然如果有不適合在國會公開講的部分，我們也尊重，只是怎麼建立指管系統是大家提醒的重點。","第二個重點，其實也有很多人建議是不是要把紅、藍軍改成A、B軍，其實在現在的演習劇本裡面，紅軍就是進攻方，藍軍就是防守方，可是紅和藍又有其政治意涵在裡面，所以後面常常就會有些政治因素，比方，從紅、藍軍的角度來說，藍軍如果落敗，大家壓力就會很大，就會有所謂的包袱，所以有人建議是不是直接乾脆把紅、藍改成A、B，讓這背後顏色的政治意涵可以降到最低，反而可以把我們部隊戰力的解放性可以更擴大出來。第三，也有一些人建議模擬的接戰系統可能要做到更好，比方，之前陸軍花了10億建置的模擬接戰系統是在美軍的現役裝備上面，單兵有雷射接收點的部分，如果你擊中的話就會被判定受傷或是死亡。可是問題是像這樣的系統，我們現在只有三套，我們的套數非常非常少，所以變成我們模擬的真實度也會有很大的打折，這部分未來有沒有可能增加構建的套數，甚至把裝備升級到變成我們可以購買服務的合約，不會讓我們的官兵裝備穿在身上都怕壞掉，反而更綁手綁腳，更不敢像真實演練的狀況？"],["陳參謀長建義：跟委員報告，委員剛剛的指導也是我們在努力的方向，我就兩點來說明，第一點，過去的雷射模擬接戰系統的確沒有辦法同步的跟上我們部隊組織編裝的調整，譬如現在已經變成聯兵營，也如委員所說的，相對的，在曲射武器或是在直升機的一些火力部分，我們是不太容易去計算。第二點，我們也在仿效一些其他國家，我們正在研析是否要所謂的買斷，或許我們可以從委商服務，依照我們所提的需求，結合我們的演訓，整個陸軍正在做完整的評估。"],["洪委員申翰：我想跟國防部說，我剛剛提的這幾個都是很多專家學者給我們的建議，建議的目的都是希望未來自由統裁的部分再擴大，讓我們的演練更趨近於真實，讓軍力真的能夠被解放出來，達到潛力真的被解放出來的目的，以上這幾個建議還是希望國防部可以帶回去做參考。","接下來，我還是要討論關於眷改的部分，我要請國安局黃副局長上臺。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：現在投影片上面是國安會和國安局主管的眷舍，我們在討論眷舍議題的時候，首先需要去確認眷舍現任居住者的身分，不能夠說很多軍人的老前輩他可能已經搬走或是由其他人住在裡面，而在這個狀況下，他還能夠領到補助款，這對其他的老前輩來說，就會變成滿不公平的事情。照理來說，國安局應該有兩大資料，第一個是配住的公文書，第二個是居住者的軍階，這些資料在國防部和國安局照理來說應該都有列管才對，是不是？"],["黃副局長明昭：目前我們有做一個清查，有一部分已清查完畢，另外還有部分仍在清查中，比如忠孝新村的部分，因為住戶的配偶問題，所以……"],["洪委員申翰：我現在想要提醒副局長的是，我們接下來要討論眷改的問題，這是一個非常非常重要的議題，可是在討論這個議題之前，有幾個先備的資訊必須先準備好，不管是在國安局或國防部，對於這些相關的重要資訊，照理說國安局都應該要把它準備好，我們必須掌握誰是合格的居住者，並確認他的軍階，才有辦法給予相對應的、正確合適的補助，這是很重要的事情。所以我剛才說的這兩大資料─配住公文書跟居住者的軍階應該都是既有的文件，照理來說都應該妥適的提供給國防部，我們才有辦法進行後續的工作。請問副局長，有關這部分的進度現在進行到哪裡？"],["黃副局長明昭：跟委員報告，我們目前沒有納入的有三個村，這三個村的部分，我剛剛報告了，忠孝新村的部分還在清查中，因為住戶的配合度不是很高，甚至我們沒辦法取得住戶的……"],["洪委員申翰：這不是配合度的問題，照理說這應該是國安局直接掌握的文件。"],["黃副局長明昭：因為當時的配住是在民國58年還有64年，那麼長久的時間，有些住戶的原始資料都已經不見了。"],["洪委員申翰：副局長，我們如果沒有辦法掌握清楚這幾份資料，後續的問題就很難處理，就容易有糾紛……"],["黃副局長明昭：對，沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：大家今天在國會討論的時候，就很容易落入空中樓閣，這也是我為什麼要在這邊很具體的要求國安局，剛剛提到的兩大文件，到底國安局把這個資料具體的轉交給國防部到什麼程度，請於一個月內告訴我們進度；還沒轉交的，接下來打算怎麼辦，你要拿出具體的辦法，不然，我們接下來在處理眷改問題時，會衍生非常非常多的爭議，這不是我們樂見的事情，我們希望相關的裁處、處理都能夠順利……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員申翰：讓這些軍人的老前輩們拿到他應有的權利，這是我們期望的事情，但我不希望行政端變成爭議的來源，可以嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：好，我們來全力配合。"],["洪委員申翰：一個月的時間。"],["黃副局長明昭：我們全力來完成。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["黃副局長明昭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-29","speakers":["馬文君","賴士葆","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","黃國昌","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","林憶君","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢；二、審查\n本院委員馬文君等 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\"防\", \"start\": 53.139, \"end\": 53.579, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 53.579, \"end\": 54.379, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 54.379, \"end\": 54.5, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 54.5, \"end\": 54.62, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 54.62, \"end\": 55.14, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 55.14, \"end\": 55.32, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 55.32, \"end\": 56.08, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 56.08, \"end\": 56.24, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 56.24, \"end\": 56.541, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 56.541, \"end\": 56.781, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 56.781, \"end\": 57.021, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 57.021, \"end\": 57.161, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 57.161, \"end\": 57.261, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 57.261, \"end\": 60.162, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 60.162, \"end\": 60.262, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 60.262, \"end\": 60.383, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 60.383, \"end\": 60.743, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 60.743, \"end\": 61.023, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 61.023, \"end\": 61.263, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 61.263, \"end\": 61.323, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 61.323, \"end\": 61.463, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 61.463, \"end\": 61.703, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 61.703, \"end\": 63.244, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 63.244, \"end\": 63.504, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 63.504, \"end\": 63.904, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 63.904, \"end\": 64.264, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"演\", \"start\": 64.264, \"end\": 64.765, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"習\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 64.765, \"end\": 64.905, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 64.905, \"end\": 65.085, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 65.085, \"end\": 65.265, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 65.265, \"end\": 65.385, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 65.385, \"end\": 65.465, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"驗\"}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 65.465, \"end\": 65.485, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 67.864, \"end\": 68.885, \"text\": \"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 67.864, \"end\": 68.184, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 68.184, \"end\": 68.244, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 68.244, \"end\": 68.344, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 68.344, \"end\": 68.444, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 68.444, \"end\": 68.464, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 68.464, \"end\": 68.484, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 68.484, \"end\": 68.564, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 68.564, \"end\": 68.624, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 68.624, \"end\": 68.664, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 68.664, \"end\": 68.784, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 68.784, \"end\": 68.865, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 68.865, \"end\": 68.885, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"2\"}]}, {\"start\": 89.741, \"end\": 104.538, \"text\": \"可以看一下螢幕上面的當然這是2019的漢光那如果是用演習的思維來說的話照理來說我們其實應該是要把它做分散的設置包括偽裝的陣地來去處理這個問題可是這個狀況其實我們看到這其實比較像是擺拍\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 89.741, \"end\": 89.821, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 89.821, \"end\": 89.901, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 89.901, \"end\": 90.021, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 90.021, \"end\": 90.061, \"score\": 0.501}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 90.061, \"end\": 90.362, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"螢\"}, {\"word\": \"幕\", \"start\": 90.362, \"end\": 90.582, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 90.582, \"end\": 90.802, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 90.802, \"end\": 90.982, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 90.982, \"end\": 91.303, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 91.303, \"end\": 91.423, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 91.423, \"end\": 91.984, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 91.984, \"end\": 92.384, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"漢\"}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 92.384, \"end\": 93.325, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 93.325, \"end\": 93.586, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 93.586, \"end\": 93.726, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 93.726, \"end\": 93.846, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 93.846, \"end\": 93.946, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 93.946, \"end\": 94.146, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"演\", \"start\": 94.146, \"end\": 94.607, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"習\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 94.607, \"end\": 94.807, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 94.807, \"end\": 95.428, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 95.428, \"end\": 95.648, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 95.648, \"end\": 95.808, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 95.808, \"end\": 95.948, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 95.948, \"end\": 96.269, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 96.269, \"end\": 96.389, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 96.389, \"end\": 96.929, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 96.929, \"end\": 97.15, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 97.15, \"end\": 97.27, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 97.27, \"end\": 97.911, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 97.911, \"end\": 98.111, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 98.111, \"end\": 98.271, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"散\", \"start\": 98.271, \"end\": 98.451, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 98.451, \"end\": 98.852, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"置\", \"start\": 98.852, \"end\": 99.232, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 99.232, \"end\": 99.372, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 99.372, \"end\": 99.933, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"偽\"}, {\"word\": \"裝\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 99.933, \"end\": 100.393, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"陣\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 100.393, \"end\": 100.754, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 100.754, \"end\": 100.894, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 100.894, \"end\": 102.075, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 102.075, \"end\": 102.176, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 102.176, \"end\": 102.876, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 102.876, \"end\": 103.057, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 103.057, \"end\": 103.237, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 103.237, \"end\": 103.417, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 103.417, \"end\": 103.837, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 103.837, \"end\": 104.038, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 104.038, \"end\": 104.218, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 104.218, \"end\": 104.378, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 104.378, \"end\": 104.518, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"擺\"}, {\"word\": \"拍\", \"start\": 104.518, \"end\": 104.538, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 106.067, \"end\": 117.291, \"text\": \"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 106.067, \"end\": 106.207, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 106.207, \"end\": 106.767, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 106.767, \"end\": 106.887, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 106.887, \"end\": 106.967, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 106.967, \"end\": 107.027, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 107.027, \"end\": 107.067, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 107.067, \"end\": 107.147, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 107.147, \"end\": 107.167, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 107.167, \"end\": 107.307, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 107.307, \"end\": 107.467, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 107.467, \"end\": 107.668, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 107.668, \"end\": 107.788, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 107.788, \"end\": 107.868, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 107.868, \"end\": 107.968, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 107.968, \"end\": 108.028, \"score\": 0.362}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 108.028, \"end\": 108.108, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 108.108, \"end\": 108.148, \"score\": 0.493}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 108.148, \"end\": 108.288, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 108.288, \"end\": 108.348, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 108.348, \"end\": 108.368, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 108.368, \"end\": 108.408, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 108.408, \"end\": 108.588, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 108.588, \"end\": 108.988, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 108.988, \"end\": 109.248, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 109.248, \"end\": 109.368, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 109.368, \"end\": 109.508, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 109.508, \"end\": 109.628, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 109.628, \"end\": 109.748, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 109.748, \"end\": 109.768, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 109.768, \"end\": 109.788, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 109.788, \"end\": 109.908, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 109.908, \"end\": 109.928, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 109.928, \"end\": 109.948, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 109.948, \"end\": 110.008, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 110.008, \"end\": 110.108, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 113.77, \"end\": 113.83, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 113.83, \"end\": 113.89, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 113.89, \"end\": 113.99, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 113.99, \"end\": 114.01, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 114.01, \"end\": 114.15, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 114.15, \"end\": 114.17, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 114.17, \"end\": 114.19, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 114.19, \"end\": 114.25, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 114.25, \"end\": 114.29, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 114.29, \"end\": 114.31, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 114.31, \"end\": 114.33, \"score\": 0.0}, 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463.233, \"end\": 463.253, \"score\": 0.19}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 464.774, \"end\": 485.426, \"text\": \"這些部分我認為可能不適宜在公開的場合做過多的一個說明所以現在就這個等於是說我們會把這個執管的這個系統構建到一個我們認為完善的一個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 464.774, \"end\": 464.994, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 464.994, \"end\": 465.114, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 465.114, \"end\": 465.314, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 465.314, \"end\": 467.716, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 467.716, \"end\": 467.836, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 467.836, \"end\": 468.016, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 468.016, \"end\": 468.316, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"適\"}, {\"word\": \"宜\", \"start\": 468.316, \"end\": 468.436, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 468.436, \"end\": 468.636, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 468.636, \"end\": 469.137, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 469.137, \"end\": 469.577, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 469.577, \"end\": 470.978, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 470.978, \"end\": 471.538, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 471.538, \"end\": 471.698, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 471.698, \"end\": 471.838, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 471.838, \"end\": 472.378, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 472.378, \"end\": 473.719, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 473.719, \"end\": 473.959, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 473.959, \"end\": 474.82, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 474.82, \"end\": 475.54, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 475.54, \"end\": 477.361, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, 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\"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 484.305, \"end\": 484.886, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 484.886, \"end\": 485.106, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 485.106, \"end\": 485.306, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 485.306, \"end\": 485.406, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 485.406, \"end\": 485.426, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 485.486, \"end\": 486.266, \"text\": \"二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等2\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 485.486, \"end\": 485.506, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 485.506, \"end\": 485.546, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 485.546, \"end\": 485.646, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 485.646, \"end\": 485.686, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 485.686, \"end\": 485.806, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 485.806, \"end\": 485.906, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"君\", \"start\": 485.906, \"end\": 485.986, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 485.986, \"end\": 486.126, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 486.126, \"end\": 486.146, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 486.146, \"end\": 486.166, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 486.166, \"end\": 486.186, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 486.186, \"end\": 486.246, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 486.246, \"end\": 486.266, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"2\"}]}, {\"start\": 501.713, \"end\": 506.795, \"text\": \"二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 501.713, \"end\": 501.853, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 501.853, \"end\": 502.013, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 502.013, \"end\": 502.153, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 502.153, \"end\": 502.173, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 502.173, \"end\": 502.193, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 502.193, \"end\": 502.313, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"君\", \"start\": 502.313, \"end\": 502.533, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 502.533, \"end\": 502.573, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 502.573, \"end\": 502.693, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 502.693, \"end\": 502.753, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 502.753, \"end\": 502.913, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 502.913, \"end\": 503.033, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 504.434, \"end\": 504.474, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 504.474, \"end\": 504.574, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 504.574, \"end\": 504.694, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 504.694, \"end\": 504.754, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 504.754, \"end\": 504.854, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 504.854, \"end\": 504.994, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 504.994, \"end\": 505.094, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 505.094, \"end\": 505.114, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 505.114, \"end\": 505.134, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 505.134, \"end\": 505.194, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 505.194, \"end\": 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\"start\": 506.154, \"end\": 506.274, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 506.274, \"end\": 506.495, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 506.495, \"end\": 506.655, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 506.655, \"end\": 506.755, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 506.755, \"end\": 506.775, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 506.775, \"end\": 506.795, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}]}, {\"start\": 520.879, \"end\": 523.38, \"text\": \"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 520.879, \"end\": 521.079, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 521.079, \"end\": 521.219, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 521.219, \"end\": 521.419, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 521.419, \"end\": 521.719, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 521.719, \"end\": 521.98, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 521.98, \"end\": 522.42, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 522.42, \"end\": 522.72, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 522.72, \"end\": 522.88, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 522.88, \"end\": 523.1, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 523.1, \"end\": 523.26, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"鴻\"}, {\"word\": \"薇\", \"start\": 523.26, \"end\": 523.36, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 523.36, \"end\": 523.38, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"2\"}]}, {\"start\": 545.049, \"end\": 570.795, \"text\": \"之前陸軍花了10億建制的模擬階段系統這是在美軍的現役裝備上面單兵其實他有他的雷射雷射的接收點的部分那如果你擊中的話就會被判定受傷或者是死亡那可是問題是像這樣的系統我們現在只有三套我們的套數非常非常少啊那所以變成我們模擬的真實度也會有很大的打折這部分有沒有可能未來要增加\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 545.049, \"end\": 545.249, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"前\", 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00:00:13,980\n上一次總長來立院報告其實已經20多年前所以今天我想要請顧部長跟梅總長請顧部長、梅總長是,宏偉好\n\n2\n00:00:24,557 --> 00:00:42,132\n部長當然我是樂見這個看到國防部裡面去貫徹部長跟總長的分工所以我接下來的問題當然我請兩位一起上台但也可以依照你們職權上的分工來進行回答那我主要我想要先跟這個國防部來討論關於漢光演習的部分\n\n3\n00:00:45,975 --> 00:01:05,485\n其實我們都知道其實這個火力展示的目的其實是為了向民眾來展現我們的國防戰力我自己認為這也是全民國防教育的一環這個是要展現我們好的一部分但是其實演習的目的是要來檢驗戰力\n\n4\n00:01:07,864 --> 00:01:08,885\n二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n\n5\n00:01:29,741 --> 00:01:44,538\n可以看一下螢幕上面的當然這是2019的漢光那如果是用演習的思維來說的話照理來說我們其實應該是要把它做分散的設置包括偽裝的陣地來去處理這個問題可是這個狀況其實我們看到這其實比較像是擺拍\n\n6\n00:01:46,067 --> 00:01:57,291\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等\n\n7\n00:02:08,735 --> 00:02:29,217\n所以我自己很樂見看到今年國防部標榜我們的漢光演習希望能夠所謂來真的那來真的這三個字講得簡單可是要做起來並不是一件這麼容易的事情所以我也今天也有一些媒體朋友在現場其實如果當我們要來真的時候可能就會有看到\n\n8\n00:02:29,978 --> 00:02:56,626\n我們在民眾在路上會看到可能一些服裝儀容不一定這麼整齊啊甚至會維修拋錨輪車的這些狀況都可能會發生因為這就是所謂來真的那我自己認為這也才是演習的目的因為真的打仗沒有在怕衣服髒或者我們只做這些面子工程那可是接下來我想要問也問國防部我們未來有沒有擴大能夠將演習跟活力展示徹底分開辦的這樣的規劃\n\n9\n00:03:02,648 --> 00:03:19,096\n拜訪委員您的意見有關展示對於不管是剛您提到的對於這個民眾的信心然後對我們的把我們實際的一些的武器裝備籌貨之後展現給國人這個還是有它的必要性但是當然\n\n10\n00:03:20,277 --> 00:03:37,439\n對這個部分我們會有這個今年我們可能這個部分目前因為漢光演習是從去年12月份就開始規劃了然後我們所有的也是做一個延續那您有建議我們會會把考量如何去做在\n\n11\n00:03:38,300 --> 00:04:04,819\n在符合在單位的一個任務的狀況還有一個我們時間的配當展示給國人還是有它的必要性。總長我的意思不是說今天我只獨尊演習然後我的活力展示沒有必要我的意思並不是這樣而是怎麼讓這兩件事情之間邏輯不要互相的干擾影響到這兩件事情本身的效益是的那所以我覺得如果真的要做那乾脆就更擴大的分開去處理\n\n12\n00:04:06,055 --> 00:04:29,766\n那既可以達到我們希望演習的功能在火力展示要讓大家對於國防部有信心的部分我覺得也可以進行可是他邏輯不要衝突這是重點是的這個我們會把它納入的這個做完整的規劃畢竟我們後面的一個戰力的提升新獲得的這些的裝備如何展示給國人讓國人有信心這個我們一定會把它納入我們的非常重要的考量\n\n13\n00:04:30,046 --> 00:04:58,942\n好接下來我還要繼續我想要往下細看其實我們都知道目前漢光其實還是一個所謂計劃統裁的概念簡單來說他還是有一定的劇本啦那比方說可能前三天是紅軍佔優勢之後藍軍反攻可是我們看到其實2023年的長青十三號的操演裡面其實已經看到在這個計劃統裁裡面已經開始有實施所謂一般的這個我們一般叫做可能叫自由統裁的部分已經在這裡面其實有看到了\n\n14\n00:04:59,562 --> 00:05:27,994\n那,我們未來會擴大自由統裁的部分嗎?跟委員報告,自由統裁其實最主要就是考驗我們這些的指揮官,他能夠去臨機的判斷,然後下達他的一個指導,然後再由統裁部看他的這個作為。這個確實是一個在實兵對抗的時候,非常好的一種執行的模式。但是總長,我這邊當然也有幾個部分,因為其實有很多不同的專業者來給我們一些建議。\n\n15\n00:05:29,275 --> 00:05:51,913\n他們也提醒如果要完成自由統裁其實有幾個重要的前提第一個是要有完善的指管系統是的那比方說我們現在看到新加坡的星光部隊他們的指管層級其實是可以到陸軍的單兵他們其實把他們GPS打開以後他們指揮官就可以非常非常清楚地掌握到他們部隊每一個甚至到單兵裡面的位置那這個指揮系統其實可以一清二楚\n\n16\n00:05:52,634 --> 00:06:19,086\n可是我們其實陸軍的為了要落實我們的指管到連或者是排其實我們之前委託了中科院的睿智專案但這個專案現在卻被審計部認為效能過低甚至評測有嚴重的延誤無法掌握部隊位置無法及時應變所以變成最後還是只能照劇本演練的這個狀況所以我想請問國防部這部分我們有沒有改進的計劃\n\n17\n00:06:24,030 --> 00:06:25,951\n委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等25\n\n18\n00:06:41,916 --> 00:07:06,717\n這個方向我們沒有變而且我們可能會有一些的成果但是我們現在問題是我們的準備包括我們的做法上面要怎麼真的趨向這個地方所以我現在看到的反而是如果從睿智系統這個做法來看的話現在反而被審計部做這樣子的評價那國防部怎麼樣去處理這個部分會有沒有什麼改善的做法\n\n19\n00:07:08,011 --> 00:07:24,907\n跟委員報告我想我們這個睿智系統的這個建案的這個部分我們應該是說他還他可以有改善的一個地方\n\n20\n00:07:25,626 --> 00:07:43,253\n那到達改善的一個程度的時候呢,我們會把它納入。但是我想我們也會有這個完善的一個指管系統的一個方案。\n\n21\n00:07:44,774 --> 00:08:05,426\n這些部分我認為可能不適宜在公開的場合做過多的一個說明所以現在就這個等於是說我們會把這個執管的這個系統構建到一個我們認為完善的一個\n\n22\n00:08:05,486 --> 00:08:06,266\n二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等2\n\n23\n00:08:21,713 --> 00:08:26,795\n二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員\n\n24\n00:08:40,879 --> 00:08:43,380\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n\n25\n00:09:05,049 --> 00:09:30,795\n之前陸軍花了10億建制的模擬階段系統這是在美軍的現役裝備上面單兵其實他有他的雷射雷射的接收點的部分那如果你擊中的話就會被判定受傷或者是死亡那可是問題是像這樣的系統我們現在只有三套我們的套數非常非常少啊那所以變成我們模擬的真實度也會有很大的打折這部分有沒有可能未來要增加\n\n26\n00:09:31,530 --> 00:09:42,316\n委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇\n\n27\n00:09:45,439 --> 00:09:53,821\n黨首、黨角更不敢像是真實的演練的狀況。黃委員,我這邊向委員報告。委員剛剛的指導也是我們在努力的一個方向。我就兩點來說明。第一點,我們過去的這個雷射模擬接戰系統,它的確沒有辦法同步地跟上我們部隊組織變裝的調整。比如現在已經變成聯兵營。\n\n28\n00:10:06,545 --> 00:10:07,626\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n\n29\n00:10:32,025 --> 00:11:01,110\n我想跟國防部說我剛才這幾個當然都是很多專業者給我們的建議這建議的目的是都未來都希望能夠我們讓自由統裁的部分能夠再擴大讓我們的演練更趨近於真實讓大家的這個軍力真的能夠被解放出來潛力真的被解放出來的目的所以以上我想這幾個建議還是希望國防部可以帶回去來去做參考那接下來我還是要討論到關於卷改的部分我要請國安局的副局長上台黃副局長吧\n\n30\n00:11:08,686 --> 00:11:33,638\n副委員我現在投影片上面是國安會跟國安局主管的眷舍那當然我們在討論眷舍議題的時候我們首先需要去確認眷舍現任居住者的身份那不能夠說很多眷舍的老前輩他可能已經搬走或其他人住在裡面可是他在這個狀況下還能夠領到補助款這當然就會對於其他的老前輩來說變成是一個蠻不公平的事情\n\n31\n00:11:34,478 --> 00:11:59,932\n所以我們這邊其實照理來說其實國安局應該有兩大資料第一個是配住的公文書第二個是居住者的軍階這些資料照理來說應該國安局都有列管才對是不是目前我們有做一個清查那部分也就清查完了那另外還有部分還在做一個清查比方說中校新村的部分這個因為住戶的一個配額問題所以\n\n32\n00:12:01,013 --> 00:12:16,593\n部長我現在想要提醒的事情是我們接下來要討論卷改的問題這當然是一個非常非常重要的議題可是在討論這個議題之前有幾個先備的資訊我們必須先準備好不管是在國安局或國防部之間這些相關的重要的資訊\n\n33\n00:12:17,734 --> 00:12:45,075\n我想照理來說都應該是國安局把它準備好的我們必須掌握誰是合格的居住者並確認他的軍階我們才有辦法給予相對應正確的合適的補助這是重要的事情所以我剛才說這兩大資料一個是配注公文書跟居住者的軍階這應該都是既有的文件啊照理來說都應該妥適的提供給國防部啊我們才有辦法進行後續的工作啊這部分的進度\n\n34\n00:12:46,016 --> 00:13:12,673\n副局長,現在我們進行到哪裡?我要跟委員報告,我們目前沒有納入的有三個村。那這三個村的部分,我剛剛報告了,中下新村部分還在清查中,因為住戶的一個配合度不是很高,甚至我們沒辦法取得那個…這不是配合度的問題,這你要住在裡面。對。你就應該相對應,包括這也是照理說國安局應該直接掌握的文件啊。\n\n35\n00:13:14,314 --> 00:13:41,316\n因為當時的配住是民國58年還有64年那麼長久的時間原始的資料有些住戶都已經不見了我們這幾份資料如果沒有辦法掌握清楚的時候我們後續的問題就很難處理就容易有糾紛大家今天在國會討論就很容易落入空中樓閣這是我們現在今天為什麼要在這邊很具體的要求這些相關剛剛兩大資料的文件\n\n36\n00:13:42,284 --> 00:13:43,849\n我認為國安局請一個月內\n\n37\n00:13:45,165 --> 00:14:14,091\n告訴我們進度到底你把這個資料具體的轉交給國防部到什麼程度那假設還沒轉交的你接下來打算該怎麼辦你要拿出具體的辦法不然我們接下來處理卷改的問題只會衍生非常非常多的爭議這不是我們樂見的事情我們希望這個相關的採取處理都能夠順利把握這些讓這些軍人的老前輩們拿他應有的權利這是我們期望的事情但我不希望變成行政端變成是爭議的來源啊可以嗎\n\n38\n00:14:14,932 --> 00:14:15,733\n接下來請徐巧欣委員上台諮詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6315\t13980\t上一次總長來立院報告其實已經20多年前所以今天我想要請顧部長跟梅總長請顧部長、梅總長是,宏偉好\n24557\t42132\t部長當然我是樂見這個看到國防部裡面去貫徹部長跟總長的分工所以我接下來的問題當然我請兩位一起上台但也可以依照你們職權上的分工來進行回答那我主要我想要先跟這個國防部來討論關於漢光演習的部分\n45975\t65485\t其實我們都知道其實這個火力展示的目的其實是為了向民眾來展現我們的國防戰力我自己認為這也是全民國防教育的一環這個是要展現我們好的一部分但是其實演習的目的是要來檢驗戰力\n67864\t68885\t二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n89741\t104538\t可以看一下螢幕上面的當然這是2019的漢光那如果是用演習的思維來說的話照理來說我們其實應該是要把它做分散的設置包括偽裝的陣地來去處理這個問題可是這個狀況其實我們看到這其實比較像是擺拍\n106067\t117291\t三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等\n128735\t149217\t所以我自己很樂見看到今年國防部標榜我們的漢光演習希望能夠所謂來真的那來真的這三個字講得簡單可是要做起來並不是一件這麼容易的事情所以我也今天也有一些媒體朋友在現場其實如果當我們要來真的時候可能就會有看到\n149978\t176626\t我們在民眾在路上會看到可能一些服裝儀容不一定這麼整齊啊甚至會維修拋錨輪車的這些狀況都可能會發生因為這就是所謂來真的那我自己認為這也才是演習的目的因為真的打仗沒有在怕衣服髒或者我們只做這些面子工程那可是接下來我想要問也問國防部我們未來有沒有擴大能夠將演習跟活力展示徹底分開辦的這樣的規劃\n182648\t199096\t拜訪委員您的意見有關展示對於不管是剛您提到的對於這個民眾的信心然後對我們的把我們實際的一些的武器裝備籌貨之後展現給國人這個還是有它的必要性但是當然\n200277\t217439\t對這個部分我們會有這個今年我們可能這個部分目前因為漢光演習是從去年12月份就開始規劃了然後我們所有的也是做一個延續那您有建議我們會會把考量如何去做在\n218300\t244819\t在符合在單位的一個任務的狀況還有一個我們時間的配當展示給國人還是有它的必要性。總長我的意思不是說今天我只獨尊演習然後我的活力展示沒有必要我的意思並不是這樣而是怎麼讓這兩件事情之間邏輯不要互相的干擾影響到這兩件事情本身的效益是的那所以我覺得如果真的要做那乾脆就更擴大的分開去處理\n246055\t269766\t那既可以達到我們希望演習的功能在火力展示要讓大家對於國防部有信心的部分我覺得也可以進行可是他邏輯不要衝突這是重點是的 這個我們會把它納入的這個做完整的規劃畢竟我們後面的一個戰力的提升新獲得的這些的裝備如何展示給國人讓國人有信心這個我們一定會把它納入我們的非常重要的考量\n270046\t298942\t好接下來我還要繼續我想要往下細看其實我們都知道目前漢光其實還是一個所謂計劃統裁的概念簡單來說他還是有一定的劇本啦那比方說可能前三天是紅軍佔優勢之後藍軍反攻可是我們看到其實2023年的長青十三號的操演裡面其實已經看到在這個計劃統裁裡面已經開始有實施所謂一般的這個我們一般叫做可能叫自由統裁的部分已經在這裡面其實有看到了\n299562\t327994\t那,我們未來會擴大自由統裁的部分嗎?跟委員報告,自由統裁其實最主要就是考驗我們這些的指揮官,他能夠去臨機的判斷,然後下達他的一個指導,然後再由統裁部看他的這個作為。這個確實是一個在實兵對抗的時候,非常好的一種執行的模式。但是總長,我這邊當然也有幾個部分,因為其實有很多不同的專業者來給我們一些建議。\n329275\t351913\t他們也提醒如果要完成自由統裁其實有幾個重要的前提第一個是要有完善的指管系統是的那比方說我們現在看到新加坡的星光部隊他們的指管層級其實是可以到陸軍的單兵他們其實把他們GPS打開以後他們指揮官就可以非常非常清楚地掌握到他們部隊每一個甚至到單兵裡面的位置那這個指揮系統其實可以一清二楚\n352634\t379086\t可是我們其實陸軍的為了要落實我們的指管到連或者是排其實我們之前委託了中科院的睿智專案但這個專案現在卻被審計部認為效能過低甚至評測有嚴重的延誤無法掌握部隊位置無法及時應變所以變成最後還是只能照劇本演練的這個狀況所以我想請問國防部這部分我們有沒有改進的計劃\n384030\t385951\t委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等25\n401916\t426717\t這個方向我們沒有變而且我們可能會有一些的成果但是我們現在問題是我們的準備包括我們的做法上面要怎麼真的趨向這個地方所以我現在看到的反而是如果從睿智系統這個做法來看的話現在反而被審計部做這樣子的評價那國防部怎麼樣去處理這個部分會有沒有什麼改善的做法\n428011\t444907\t跟委員報告我想我們這個睿智系統的這個建案的這個部分我們應該是說他還他可以有改善的一個地方\n445626\t463253\t那到達改善的一個程度的時候呢,我們會把它納入。但是我想我們也會有這個完善的一個指管系統的一個方案。\n464774\t485426\t這些部分我認為可能不適宜在公開的場合做過多的一個說明所以現在就這個等於是說我們會把這個執管的這個系統構建到一個我們認為完善的一個\n485486\t486266\t二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等2\n501713\t506795\t二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員\n520879\t523380\t三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n545049\t570795\t之前陸軍花了10億建制的模擬階段系統這是在美軍的現役裝備上面單兵其實他有他的雷射雷射的接收點的部分那如果你擊中的話就會被判定受傷或者是死亡那可是問題是像這樣的系統我們現在只有三套我們的套數非常非常少啊那所以變成我們模擬的真實度也會有很大的打折這部分有沒有可能未來要增加\n571530\t582316\t委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇\n585439\t593821\t黨首、黨角更不敢像是真實的演練的狀況。黃委員,我這邊向委員報告。委員剛剛的指導也是我們在努力的一個方向。我就兩點來說明。第一點,我們過去的這個雷射模擬接戰系統,它的確沒有辦法同步地跟上我們部隊組織變裝的調整。比如現在已經變成聯兵營。\n606545\t607626\t三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n632025\t661110\t我想跟國防部說我剛才這幾個當然都是很多專業者給我們的建議這建議的目的是都未來都希望能夠我們讓自由統裁的部分能夠再擴大讓我們的演練更趨近於真實讓大家的這個軍力真的能夠被解放出來潛力真的被解放出來的目的所以以上我想這幾個建議還是希望國防部可以帶回去來去做參考那接下來我還是要討論到關於卷改的部分我要請國安局的副局長上台黃副局長吧\n668686\t693638\t副委員我現在投影片上面是國安會跟國安局主管的眷舍那當然我們在討論眷舍議題的時候我們首先需要去確認眷舍現任居住者的身份那不能夠說很多眷舍的老前輩他可能已經搬走或其他人住在裡面可是他在這個狀況下還能夠領到補助款這當然就會對於其他的老前輩來說變成是一個蠻不公平的事情\n694478\t719932\t所以我們這邊其實照理來說其實國安局應該有兩大資料第一個是配住的公文書第二個是居住者的軍階這些資料照理來說應該國安局都有列管才對是不是目前我們有做一個清查那部分也就清查完了那另外還有部分還在做一個清查比方說中校新村的部分這個因為住戶的一個配額問題所以\n721013\t736593\t部長我現在想要提醒的事情是我們接下來要討論卷改的問題這當然是一個非常非常重要的議題可是在討論這個議題之前有幾個先備的資訊我們必須先準備好不管是在國安局或國防部之間這些相關的重要的資訊\n737734\t765075\t我想照理來說都應該是國安局把它準備好的我們必須掌握誰是合格的居住者並確認他的軍階我們才有辦法給予相對應正確的合適的補助這是重要的事情所以我剛才說這兩大資料一個是配注公文書跟居住者的軍階這應該都是既有的文件啊照理來說都應該妥適的提供給國防部啊我們才有辦法進行後續的工作啊這部分的進度\n766016\t792673\t副局長,現在我們進行到哪裡?我要跟委員報告,我們目前沒有納入的有三個村。那這三個村的部分,我剛剛報告了,中下新村部分還在清查中,因為住戶的一個配合度不是很高,甚至我們沒辦法取得那個…這不是配合度的問題,這你要住在裡面。對。你就應該相對應,包括這也是照理說國安局應該直接掌握的文件啊。\n794314\t821316\t因為當時的配住是民國58年還有64年那麼長久的時間原始的資料有些住戶都已經不見了我們這幾份資料如果沒有辦法掌握清楚的時候我們後續的問題就很難處理就容易有糾紛大家今天在國會討論就很容易落入空中樓閣這是我們現在今天為什麼要在這邊很具體的要求這些相關剛剛兩大資料的文件\n822284\t823849\t我認為國安局請一個月內\n825165\t854091\t告訴我們進度到底你把這個資料具體的轉交給國防部到什麼程度那假設還沒轉交的你接下來打算該怎麼辦你要拿出具體的辦法不然我們接下來處理卷改的問題只會衍生非常非常多的爭議這不是我們樂見的事情我們希望這個相關的採取處理都能夠順利把握這些讓這些軍人的老前輩們拿他應有的權利這是我們期望的事情但我不希望變成行政端變成是爭議的來源啊可以嗎\n854932\t855733\t接下來請徐巧欣委員上台諮詢\n","txt":"上一次總長來立院報告其實已經20多年前所以今天我想要請顧部長跟梅總長請顧部長、梅總長是,宏偉好\n部長當然我是樂見這個看到國防部裡面去貫徹部長跟總長的分工所以我接下來的問題當然我請兩位一起上台但也可以依照你們職權上的分工來進行回答那我主要我想要先跟這個國防部來討論關於漢光演習的部分\n其實我們都知道其實這個火力展示的目的其實是為了向民眾來展現我們的國防戰力我自己認為這也是全民國防教育的一環這個是要展現我們好的一部分但是其實演習的目的是要來檢驗戰力\n二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n可以看一下螢幕上面的當然這是2019的漢光那如果是用演習的思維來說的話照理來說我們其實應該是要把它做分散的設置包括偽裝的陣地來去處理這個問題可是這個狀況其實我們看到這其實比較像是擺拍\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等\n所以我自己很樂見看到今年國防部標榜我們的漢光演習希望能夠所謂來真的那來真的這三個字講得簡單可是要做起來並不是一件這麼容易的事情所以我也今天也有一些媒體朋友在現場其實如果當我們要來真的時候可能就會有看到\n我們在民眾在路上會看到可能一些服裝儀容不一定這麼整齊啊甚至會維修拋錨輪車的這些狀況都可能會發生因為這就是所謂來真的那我自己認為這也才是演習的目的因為真的打仗沒有在怕衣服髒或者我們只做這些面子工程那可是接下來我想要問也問國防部我們未來有沒有擴大能夠將演習跟活力展示徹底分開辦的這樣的規劃\n拜訪委員您的意見有關展示對於不管是剛您提到的對於這個民眾的信心然後對我們的把我們實際的一些的武器裝備籌貨之後展現給國人這個還是有它的必要性但是當然\n對這個部分我們會有這個今年我們可能這個部分目前因為漢光演習是從去年12月份就開始規劃了然後我們所有的也是做一個延續那您有建議我們會會把考量如何去做在\n在符合在單位的一個任務的狀況還有一個我們時間的配當展示給國人還是有它的必要性。總長我的意思不是說今天我只獨尊演習然後我的活力展示沒有必要我的意思並不是這樣而是怎麼讓這兩件事情之間邏輯不要互相的干擾影響到這兩件事情本身的效益是的那所以我覺得如果真的要做那乾脆就更擴大的分開去處理\n那既可以達到我們希望演習的功能在火力展示要讓大家對於國防部有信心的部分我覺得也可以進行可是他邏輯不要衝突這是重點是的 這個我們會把它納入的這個做完整的規劃畢竟我們後面的一個戰力的提升新獲得的這些的裝備如何展示給國人讓國人有信心這個我們一定會把它納入我們的非常重要的考量\n好接下來我還要繼續我想要往下細看其實我們都知道目前漢光其實還是一個所謂計劃統裁的概念簡單來說他還是有一定的劇本啦那比方說可能前三天是紅軍佔優勢之後藍軍反攻可是我們看到其實2023年的長青十三號的操演裡面其實已經看到在這個計劃統裁裡面已經開始有實施所謂一般的這個我們一般叫做可能叫自由統裁的部分已經在這裡面其實有看到了\n那,我們未來會擴大自由統裁的部分嗎?跟委員報告,自由統裁其實最主要就是考驗我們這些的指揮官,他能夠去臨機的判斷,然後下達他的一個指導,然後再由統裁部看他的這個作為。這個確實是一個在實兵對抗的時候,非常好的一種執行的模式。但是總長,我這邊當然也有幾個部分,因為其實有很多不同的專業者來給我們一些建議。\n他們也提醒如果要完成自由統裁其實有幾個重要的前提第一個是要有完善的指管系統是的那比方說我們現在看到新加坡的星光部隊他們的指管層級其實是可以到陸軍的單兵他們其實把他們GPS打開以後他們指揮官就可以非常非常清楚地掌握到他們部隊每一個甚至到單兵裡面的位置那這個指揮系統其實可以一清二楚\n可是我們其實陸軍的為了要落實我們的指管到連或者是排其實我們之前委託了中科院的睿智專案但這個專案現在卻被審計部認為效能過低甚至評測有嚴重的延誤無法掌握部隊位置無法及時應變所以變成最後還是只能照劇本演練的這個狀況所以我想請問國防部這部分我們有沒有改進的計劃\n委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等25\n這個方向我們沒有變而且我們可能會有一些的成果但是我們現在問題是我們的準備包括我們的做法上面要怎麼真的趨向這個地方所以我現在看到的反而是如果從睿智系統這個做法來看的話現在反而被審計部做這樣子的評價那國防部怎麼樣去處理這個部分會有沒有什麼改善的做法\n跟委員報告我想我們這個睿智系統的這個建案的這個部分我們應該是說他還他可以有改善的一個地方\n那到達改善的一個程度的時候呢,我們會把它納入。但是我想我們也會有這個完善的一個指管系統的一個方案。\n這些部分我認為可能不適宜在公開的場合做過多的一個說明所以現在就這個等於是說我們會把這個執管的這個系統構建到一個我們認為完善的一個\n二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等2\n二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n之前陸軍花了10億建制的模擬階段系統這是在美軍的現役裝備上面單兵其實他有他的雷射雷射的接收點的部分那如果你擊中的話就會被判定受傷或者是死亡那可是問題是像這樣的系統我們現在只有三套我們的套數非常非常少啊那所以變成我們模擬的真實度也會有很大的打折這部分有沒有可能未來要增加\n委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇\n黨首、黨角更不敢像是真實的演練的狀況。黃委員,我這邊向委員報告。委員剛剛的指導也是我們在努力的一個方向。我就兩點來說明。第一點,我們過去的這個雷射模擬接戰系統,它的確沒有辦法同步地跟上我們部隊組織變裝的調整。比如現在已經變成聯兵營。\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n我想跟國防部說我剛才這幾個當然都是很多專業者給我們的建議這建議的目的是都未來都希望能夠我們讓自由統裁的部分能夠再擴大讓我們的演練更趨近於真實讓大家的這個軍力真的能夠被解放出來潛力真的被解放出來的目的所以以上我想這幾個建議還是希望國防部可以帶回去來去做參考那接下來我還是要討論到關於卷改的部分我要請國安局的副局長上台黃副局長吧\n副委員我現在投影片上面是國安會跟國安局主管的眷舍那當然我們在討論眷舍議題的時候我們首先需要去確認眷舍現任居住者的身份那不能夠說很多眷舍的老前輩他可能已經搬走或其他人住在裡面可是他在這個狀況下還能夠領到補助款這當然就會對於其他的老前輩來說變成是一個蠻不公平的事情\n所以我們這邊其實照理來說其實國安局應該有兩大資料第一個是配住的公文書第二個是居住者的軍階這些資料照理來說應該國安局都有列管才對是不是目前我們有做一個清查那部分也就清查完了那另外還有部分還在做一個清查比方說中校新村的部分這個因為住戶的一個配額問題所以\n部長我現在想要提醒的事情是我們接下來要討論卷改的問題這當然是一個非常非常重要的議題可是在討論這個議題之前有幾個先備的資訊我們必須先準備好不管是在國安局或國防部之間這些相關的重要的資訊\n我想照理來說都應該是國安局把它準備好的我們必須掌握誰是合格的居住者並確認他的軍階我們才有辦法給予相對應正確的合適的補助這是重要的事情所以我剛才說這兩大資料一個是配注公文書跟居住者的軍階這應該都是既有的文件啊照理來說都應該妥適的提供給國防部啊我們才有辦法進行後續的工作啊這部分的進度\n副局長,現在我們進行到哪裡?我要跟委員報告,我們目前沒有納入的有三個村。那這三個村的部分,我剛剛報告了,中下新村部分還在清查中,因為住戶的一個配合度不是很高,甚至我們沒辦法取得那個…這不是配合度的問題,這你要住在裡面。對。你就應該相對應,包括這也是照理說國安局應該直接掌握的文件啊。\n因為當時的配住是民國58年還有64年那麼長久的時間原始的資料有些住戶都已經不見了我們這幾份資料如果沒有辦法掌握清楚的時候我們後續的問題就很難處理就容易有糾紛大家今天在國會討論就很容易落入空中樓閣這是我們現在今天為什麼要在這邊很具體的要求這些相關剛剛兩大資料的文件\n我認為國安局請一個月內\n告訴我們進度到底你把這個資料具體的轉交給國防部到什麼程度那假設還沒轉交的你接下來打算該怎麼辦你要拿出具體的辦法不然我們接下來處理卷改的問題只會衍生非常非常多的爭議這不是我們樂見的事情我們希望這個相關的採取處理都能夠順利把握這些讓這些軍人的老前輩們拿他應有的權利這是我們期望的事情但我不希望變成行政端變成是爭議的來源啊可以嗎\n接下來請徐巧欣委員上台諮詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.315 --> 00:13.980\n上一次總長來立院報告其實已經20多年前所以今天我想要請顧部長跟梅總長請顧部長、梅總長是,宏偉好\n\n00:24.557 --> 00:42.132\n部長當然我是樂見這個看到國防部裡面去貫徹部長跟總長的分工所以我接下來的問題當然我請兩位一起上台但也可以依照你們職權上的分工來進行回答那我主要我想要先跟這個國防部來討論關於漢光演習的部分\n\n00:45.975 --> 01:05.485\n其實我們都知道其實這個火力展示的目的其實是為了向民眾來展現我們的國防戰力我自己認為這也是全民國防教育的一環這個是要展現我們好的一部分但是其實演習的目的是要來檢驗戰力\n\n01:07.864 --> 01:08.885\n二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n\n01:29.741 --> 01:44.538\n可以看一下螢幕上面的當然這是2019的漢光那如果是用演習的思維來說的話照理來說我們其實應該是要把它做分散的設置包括偽裝的陣地來去處理這個問題可是這個狀況其實我們看到這其實比較像是擺拍\n\n01:46.067 --> 01:57.291\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等\n\n02:08.735 --> 02:29.217\n所以我自己很樂見看到今年國防部標榜我們的漢光演習希望能夠所謂來真的那來真的這三個字講得簡單可是要做起來並不是一件這麼容易的事情所以我也今天也有一些媒體朋友在現場其實如果當我們要來真的時候可能就會有看到\n\n02:29.978 --> 02:56.626\n我們在民眾在路上會看到可能一些服裝儀容不一定這麼整齊啊甚至會維修拋錨輪車的這些狀況都可能會發生因為這就是所謂來真的那我自己認為這也才是演習的目的因為真的打仗沒有在怕衣服髒或者我們只做這些面子工程那可是接下來我想要問也問國防部我們未來有沒有擴大能夠將演習跟活力展示徹底分開辦的這樣的規劃\n\n03:02.648 --> 03:19.096\n拜訪委員您的意見有關展示對於不管是剛您提到的對於這個民眾的信心然後對我們的把我們實際的一些的武器裝備籌貨之後展現給國人這個還是有它的必要性但是當然\n\n03:20.277 --> 03:37.439\n對這個部分我們會有這個今年我們可能這個部分目前因為漢光演習是從去年12月份就開始規劃了然後我們所有的也是做一個延續那您有建議我們會會把考量如何去做在\n\n03:38.300 --> 04:04.819\n在符合在單位的一個任務的狀況還有一個我們時間的配當展示給國人還是有它的必要性。總長我的意思不是說今天我只獨尊演習然後我的活力展示沒有必要我的意思並不是這樣而是怎麼讓這兩件事情之間邏輯不要互相的干擾影響到這兩件事情本身的效益是的那所以我覺得如果真的要做那乾脆就更擴大的分開去處理\n\n04:06.055 --> 04:29.766\n那既可以達到我們希望演習的功能在火力展示要讓大家對於國防部有信心的部分我覺得也可以進行可是他邏輯不要衝突這是重點是的這個我們會把它納入的這個做完整的規劃畢竟我們後面的一個戰力的提升新獲得的這些的裝備如何展示給國人讓國人有信心這個我們一定會把它納入我們的非常重要的考量\n\n04:30.046 --> 04:58.942\n好接下來我還要繼續我想要往下細看其實我們都知道目前漢光其實還是一個所謂計劃統裁的概念簡單來說他還是有一定的劇本啦那比方說可能前三天是紅軍佔優勢之後藍軍反攻可是我們看到其實2023年的長青十三號的操演裡面其實已經看到在這個計劃統裁裡面已經開始有實施所謂一般的這個我們一般叫做可能叫自由統裁的部分已經在這裡面其實有看到了\n\n04:59.562 --> 05:27.994\n那,我們未來會擴大自由統裁的部分嗎?跟委員報告,自由統裁其實最主要就是考驗我們這些的指揮官,他能夠去臨機的判斷,然後下達他的一個指導,然後再由統裁部看他的這個作為。這個確實是一個在實兵對抗的時候,非常好的一種執行的模式。但是總長,我這邊當然也有幾個部分,因為其實有很多不同的專業者來給我們一些建議。\n\n05:29.275 --> 05:51.913\n他們也提醒如果要完成自由統裁其實有幾個重要的前提第一個是要有完善的指管系統是的那比方說我們現在看到新加坡的星光部隊他們的指管層級其實是可以到陸軍的單兵他們其實把他們GPS打開以後他們指揮官就可以非常非常清楚地掌握到他們部隊每一個甚至到單兵裡面的位置那這個指揮系統其實可以一清二楚\n\n05:52.634 --> 06:19.086\n可是我們其實陸軍的為了要落實我們的指管到連或者是排其實我們之前委託了中科院的睿智專案但這個專案現在卻被審計部認為效能過低甚至評測有嚴重的延誤無法掌握部隊位置無法及時應變所以變成最後還是只能照劇本演練的這個狀況所以我想請問國防部這部分我們有沒有改進的計劃\n\n06:24.030 --> 06:25.951\n委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等25\n\n06:41.916 --> 07:06.717\n這個方向我們沒有變而且我們可能會有一些的成果但是我們現在問題是我們的準備包括我們的做法上面要怎麼真的趨向這個地方所以我現在看到的反而是如果從睿智系統這個做法來看的話現在反而被審計部做這樣子的評價那國防部怎麼樣去處理這個部分會有沒有什麼改善的做法\n\n07:08.011 --> 07:24.907\n跟委員報告我想我們這個睿智系統的這個建案的這個部分我們應該是說他還他可以有改善的一個地方\n\n07:25.626 --> 07:43.253\n那到達改善的一個程度的時候呢,我們會把它納入。但是我想我們也會有這個完善的一個指管系統的一個方案。\n\n07:44.774 --> 08:05.426\n這些部分我認為可能不適宜在公開的場合做過多的一個說明所以現在就這個等於是說我們會把這個執管的這個系統構建到一個我們認為完善的一個\n\n08:05.486 --> 08:06.266\n二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等2\n\n08:21.713 --> 08:26.795\n二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員\n\n08:40.879 --> 08:43.380\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n\n09:05.049 --> 09:30.795\n之前陸軍花了10億建制的模擬階段系統這是在美軍的現役裝備上面單兵其實他有他的雷射雷射的接收點的部分那如果你擊中的話就會被判定受傷或者是死亡那可是問題是像這樣的系統我們現在只有三套我們的套數非常非常少啊那所以變成我們模擬的真實度也會有很大的打折這部分有沒有可能未來要增加\n\n09:31.530 --> 09:42.316\n委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇\n\n09:45.439 --> 09:53.821\n黨首、黨角更不敢像是真實的演練的狀況。黃委員,我這邊向委員報告。委員剛剛的指導也是我們在努力的一個方向。我就兩點來說明。第一點,我們過去的這個雷射模擬接戰系統,它的確沒有辦法同步地跟上我們部隊組織變裝的調整。比如現在已經變成聯兵營。\n\n10:06.545 --> 10:07.626\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n\n10:32.025 --> 11:01.110\n我想跟國防部說我剛才這幾個當然都是很多專業者給我們的建議這建議的目的是都未來都希望能夠我們讓自由統裁的部分能夠再擴大讓我們的演練更趨近於真實讓大家的這個軍力真的能夠被解放出來潛力真的被解放出來的目的所以以上我想這幾個建議還是希望國防部可以帶回去來去做參考那接下來我還是要討論到關於卷改的部分我要請國安局的副局長上台黃副局長吧\n\n11:08.686 --> 11:33.638\n副委員我現在投影片上面是國安會跟國安局主管的眷舍那當然我們在討論眷舍議題的時候我們首先需要去確認眷舍現任居住者的身份那不能夠說很多眷舍的老前輩他可能已經搬走或其他人住在裡面可是他在這個狀況下還能夠領到補助款這當然就會對於其他的老前輩來說變成是一個蠻不公平的事情\n\n11:34.478 --> 11:59.932\n所以我們這邊其實照理來說其實國安局應該有兩大資料第一個是配住的公文書第二個是居住者的軍階這些資料照理來說應該國安局都有列管才對是不是目前我們有做一個清查那部分也就清查完了那另外還有部分還在做一個清查比方說中校新村的部分這個因為住戶的一個配額問題所以\n\n12:01.013 --> 12:16.593\n部長我現在想要提醒的事情是我們接下來要討論卷改的問題這當然是一個非常非常重要的議題可是在討論這個議題之前有幾個先備的資訊我們必須先準備好不管是在國安局或國防部之間這些相關的重要的資訊\n\n12:17.734 --> 12:45.075\n我想照理來說都應該是國安局把它準備好的我們必須掌握誰是合格的居住者並確認他的軍階我們才有辦法給予相對應正確的合適的補助這是重要的事情所以我剛才說這兩大資料一個是配注公文書跟居住者的軍階這應該都是既有的文件啊照理來說都應該妥適的提供給國防部啊我們才有辦法進行後續的工作啊這部分的進度\n\n12:46.016 --> 13:12.673\n副局長,現在我們進行到哪裡?我要跟委員報告,我們目前沒有納入的有三個村。那這三個村的部分,我剛剛報告了,中下新村部分還在清查中,因為住戶的一個配合度不是很高,甚至我們沒辦法取得那個…這不是配合度的問題,這你要住在裡面。對。你就應該相對應,包括這也是照理說國安局應該直接掌握的文件啊。\n\n13:14.314 --> 13:41.316\n因為當時的配住是民國58年還有64年那麼長久的時間原始的資料有些住戶都已經不見了我們這幾份資料如果沒有辦法掌握清楚的時候我們後續的問題就很難處理就容易有糾紛大家今天在國會討論就很容易落入空中樓閣這是我們現在今天為什麼要在這邊很具體的要求這些相關剛剛兩大資料的文件\n\n13:42.284 --> 13:43.849\n我認為國安局請一個月內\n\n13:45.165 --> 14:14.091\n告訴我們進度到底你把這個資料具體的轉交給國防部到什麼程度那假設還沒轉交的你接下來打算該怎麼辦你要拿出具體的辦法不然我們接下來處理卷改的問題只會衍生非常非常多的爭議這不是我們樂見的事情我們希望這個相關的採取處理都能夠順利把握這些讓這些軍人的老前輩們拿他應有的權利這是我們期望的事情但我不希望變成行政端變成是爭議的來源啊可以嗎\n\n14:14.932 --> 14:15.733\n接下來請徐巧欣委員上台諮詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.315,"end":13.98,"text":"上一次總長來立院報告其實已經20多年前所以今天我想要請顧部長跟梅總長請顧部長、梅總長是,宏偉好"},{"start":24.557,"end":42.132,"text":"部長當然我是樂見這個看到國防部裡面去貫徹部長跟總長的分工所以我接下來的問題當然我請兩位一起上台但也可以依照你們職權上的分工來進行回答那我主要我想要先跟這個國防部來討論關於漢光演習的部分"},{"start":45.975,"end":65.485,"text":"其實我們都知道其實這個火力展示的目的其實是為了向民眾來展現我們的國防戰力我自己認為這也是全民國防教育的一環這個是要展現我們好的一部分但是其實演習的目的是要來檢驗戰力"},{"start":67.864,"end":68.885,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":89.741,"end":104.538,"text":"可以看一下螢幕上面的當然這是2019的漢光那如果是用演習的思維來說的話照理來說我們其實應該是要把它做分散的設置包括偽裝的陣地來去處理這個問題可是這個狀況其實我們看到這其實比較像是擺拍"},{"start":106.067,"end":117.291,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等"},{"start":128.735,"end":149.217,"text":"所以我自己很樂見看到今年國防部標榜我們的漢光演習希望能夠所謂來真的那來真的這三個字講得簡單可是要做起來並不是一件這麼容易的事情所以我也今天也有一些媒體朋友在現場其實如果當我們要來真的時候可能就會有看到"},{"start":149.978,"end":176.626,"text":"我們在民眾在路上會看到可能一些服裝儀容不一定這麼整齊啊甚至會維修拋錨輪車的這些狀況都可能會發生因為這就是所謂來真的那我自己認為這也才是演習的目的因為真的打仗沒有在怕衣服髒或者我們只做這些面子工程那可是接下來我想要問也問國防部我們未來有沒有擴大能夠將演習跟活力展示徹底分開辦的這樣的規劃"},{"start":182.648,"end":199.096,"text":"拜訪委員您的意見有關展示對於不管是剛您提到的對於這個民眾的信心然後對我們的把我們實際的一些的武器裝備籌貨之後展現給國人這個還是有它的必要性但是當然"},{"start":200.277,"end":217.439,"text":"對這個部分我們會有這個今年我們可能這個部分目前因為漢光演習是從去年12月份就開始規劃了然後我們所有的也是做一個延續那您有建議我們會會把考量如何去做在"},{"start":218.3,"end":244.819,"text":"在符合在單位的一個任務的狀況還有一個我們時間的配當展示給國人還是有它的必要性。總長我的意思不是說今天我只獨尊演習然後我的活力展示沒有必要我的意思並不是這樣而是怎麼讓這兩件事情之間邏輯不要互相的干擾影響到這兩件事情本身的效益是的那所以我覺得如果真的要做那乾脆就更擴大的分開去處理"},{"start":246.055,"end":269.766,"text":"那既可以達到我們希望演習的功能在火力展示要讓大家對於國防部有信心的部分我覺得也可以進行可是他邏輯不要衝突這是重點是的 這個我們會把它納入的這個做完整的規劃畢竟我們後面的一個戰力的提升新獲得的這些的裝備如何展示給國人讓國人有信心這個我們一定會把它納入我們的非常重要的考量"},{"start":270.046,"end":298.942,"text":"好接下來我還要繼續我想要往下細看其實我們都知道目前漢光其實還是一個所謂計劃統裁的概念簡單來說他還是有一定的劇本啦那比方說可能前三天是紅軍佔優勢之後藍軍反攻可是我們看到其實2023年的長青十三號的操演裡面其實已經看到在這個計劃統裁裡面已經開始有實施所謂一般的這個我們一般叫做可能叫自由統裁的部分已經在這裡面其實有看到了"},{"start":299.562,"end":327.994,"text":"那,我們未來會擴大自由統裁的部分嗎?跟委員報告,自由統裁其實最主要就是考驗我們這些的指揮官,他能夠去臨機的判斷,然後下達他的一個指導,然後再由統裁部看他的這個作為。這個確實是一個在實兵對抗的時候,非常好的一種執行的模式。但是總長,我這邊當然也有幾個部分,因為其實有很多不同的專業者來給我們一些建議。"},{"start":329.275,"end":351.913,"text":"他們也提醒如果要完成自由統裁其實有幾個重要的前提第一個是要有完善的指管系統是的那比方說我們現在看到新加坡的星光部隊他們的指管層級其實是可以到陸軍的單兵他們其實把他們GPS打開以後他們指揮官就可以非常非常清楚地掌握到他們部隊每一個甚至到單兵裡面的位置那這個指揮系統其實可以一清二楚"},{"start":352.634,"end":379.086,"text":"可是我們其實陸軍的為了要落實我們的指管到連或者是排其實我們之前委託了中科院的睿智專案但這個專案現在卻被審計部認為效能過低甚至評測有嚴重的延誤無法掌握部隊位置無法及時應變所以變成最後還是只能照劇本演練的這個狀況所以我想請問國防部這部分我們有沒有改進的計劃"},{"start":384.03,"end":385.951,"text":"委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等25"},{"start":401.916,"end":426.717,"text":"這個方向我們沒有變而且我們可能會有一些的成果但是我們現在問題是我們的準備包括我們的做法上面要怎麼真的趨向這個地方所以我現在看到的反而是如果從睿智系統這個做法來看的話現在反而被審計部做這樣子的評價那國防部怎麼樣去處理這個部分會有沒有什麼改善的做法"},{"start":428.011,"end":444.907,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們這個睿智系統的這個建案的這個部分我們應該是說他還他可以有改善的一個地方"},{"start":445.626,"end":463.253,"text":"那到達改善的一個程度的時候呢,我們會把它納入。但是我想我們也會有這個完善的一個指管系統的一個方案。"},{"start":464.774,"end":485.426,"text":"這些部分我認為可能不適宜在公開的場合做過多的一個說明所以現在就這個等於是說我們會把這個執管的這個系統構建到一個我們認為完善的一個"},{"start":485.486,"end":486.266,"text":"二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":501.713,"end":506.795,"text":"二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員"},{"start":520.879,"end":523.38,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":545.049,"end":570.795,"text":"之前陸軍花了10億建制的模擬階段系統這是在美軍的現役裝備上面單兵其實他有他的雷射雷射的接收點的部分那如果你擊中的話就會被判定受傷或者是死亡那可是問題是像這樣的系統我們現在只有三套我們的套數非常非常少啊那所以變成我們模擬的真實度也會有很大的打折這部分有沒有可能未來要增加"},{"start":571.53,"end":582.316,"text":"委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇"},{"start":585.439,"end":593.821,"text":"黨首、黨角更不敢像是真實的演練的狀況。黃委員,我這邊向委員報告。委員剛剛的指導也是我們在努力的一個方向。我就兩點來說明。第一點,我們過去的這個雷射模擬接戰系統,它的確沒有辦法同步地跟上我們部隊組織變裝的調整。比如現在已經變成聯兵營。"},{"start":606.545,"end":607.626,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":632.025,"end":661.11,"text":"我想跟國防部說我剛才這幾個當然都是很多專業者給我們的建議這建議的目的是都未來都希望能夠我們讓自由統裁的部分能夠再擴大讓我們的演練更趨近於真實讓大家的這個軍力真的能夠被解放出來潛力真的被解放出來的目的所以以上我想這幾個建議還是希望國防部可以帶回去來去做參考那接下來我還是要討論到關於卷改的部分我要請國安局的副局長上台黃副局長吧"},{"start":668.686,"end":693.638,"text":"副委員我現在投影片上面是國安會跟國安局主管的眷舍那當然我們在討論眷舍議題的時候我們首先需要去確認眷舍現任居住者的身份那不能夠說很多眷舍的老前輩他可能已經搬走或其他人住在裡面可是他在這個狀況下還能夠領到補助款這當然就會對於其他的老前輩來說變成是一個蠻不公平的事情"},{"start":694.478,"end":719.932,"text":"所以我們這邊其實照理來說其實國安局應該有兩大資料第一個是配住的公文書第二個是居住者的軍階這些資料照理來說應該國安局都有列管才對是不是目前我們有做一個清查那部分也就清查完了那另外還有部分還在做一個清查比方說中校新村的部分這個因為住戶的一個配額問題所以"},{"start":721.013,"end":736.593,"text":"部長我現在想要提醒的事情是我們接下來要討論卷改的問題這當然是一個非常非常重要的議題可是在討論這個議題之前有幾個先備的資訊我們必須先準備好不管是在國安局或國防部之間這些相關的重要的資訊"},{"start":737.734,"end":765.075,"text":"我想照理來說都應該是國安局把它準備好的我們必須掌握誰是合格的居住者並確認他的軍階我們才有辦法給予相對應正確的合適的補助這是重要的事情所以我剛才說這兩大資料一個是配注公文書跟居住者的軍階這應該都是既有的文件啊照理來說都應該妥適的提供給國防部啊我們才有辦法進行後續的工作啊這部分的進度"},{"start":766.016,"end":792.673,"text":"副局長,現在我們進行到哪裡?我要跟委員報告,我們目前沒有納入的有三個村。那這三個村的部分,我剛剛報告了,中下新村部分還在清查中,因為住戶的一個配合度不是很高,甚至我們沒辦法取得那個…這不是配合度的問題,這你要住在裡面。對。你就應該相對應,包括這也是照理說國安局應該直接掌握的文件啊。"},{"start":794.314,"end":821.316,"text":"因為當時的配住是民國58年還有64年那麼長久的時間原始的資料有些住戶都已經不見了我們這幾份資料如果沒有辦法掌握清楚的時候我們後續的問題就很難處理就容易有糾紛大家今天在國會討論就很容易落入空中樓閣這是我們現在今天為什麼要在這邊很具體的要求這些相關剛剛兩大資料的文件"},{"start":822.284,"end":823.849,"text":"我認為國安局請一個月內"},{"start":825.165,"end":854.091,"text":"告訴我們進度到底你把這個資料具體的轉交給國防部到什麼程度那假設還沒轉交的你接下來打算該怎麼辦你要拿出具體的辦法不然我們接下來處理卷改的問題只會衍生非常非常多的爭議這不是我們樂見的事情我們希望這個相關的採取處理都能夠順利把握這些讓這些軍人的老前輩們拿他應有的權利這是我們期望的事情但我不希望變成行政端變成是爭議的來源啊可以嗎"},{"start":854.932,"end":855.733,"text":"接下來請徐巧欣委員上台諮詢"}]}}}}