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or no，就是這樣。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以我想問審查的過程，今天國防及外交委員會之所以會聯席，可能也是因為這個原因。最後的結果要嘛就是存查，要嘛就是直接退回去，在退回去的狀況下，對外交這件事情會不會有所影響？我一定也會問外交部長，但是我也想問一下勞動部對於這件事情的看法，畢竟你們才是真正跟對方接觸的，那麼在外交上會不會有什麼影響呢？"],["何部長佩珊：我想，這次真的很難得，印度方非常地積極，如果這項MOU不幸沒有通過、被退回，對雙方關係當然會是傷害啊！"],["沈委員伯洋：所以，在這份報告交由立法委員審查的時候，我相信很多人會關心臺灣勞工的權益啦！對社會影響的評估啦！我覺得那都是正當的、那都是應該值得討論的……"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["沈委員伯洋：但是不一定每個人都對外交這件事情熟悉，所以可能也必須請部長多多跟委員溝通。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：畢竟還是會有一些外交的衝擊在，我身為國防及外交委員會委員，當然不樂見嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：要怎麼達到平衡，我覺得是重要的，但可能也必須麻煩勞動部多多跟其他委員做相關說明。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來就是剛剛一直提到的直接聘僱可能性，你剛剛提到這絕對是好事，但是有困難。可不可以再告訴大家困難的點目前是在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：這是個全新的經驗，不是我們臺灣自己內部的那種直聘，如果依照外國的經驗來看，一定是政府跟企業要合作的啦！都是企業在海外，政府跟企業搭配，甚至到那邊駐點、設點、設人，然後有龐大的經費在背後支撐，在那邊直接進行選工。可是目前我們有沒有？我們還沒有在任何國家這樣做，所以是全新的，更何況印度又是新的來源國，所以說真的必須克服很多困難。我們不能在這邊擔保一定百分之百達成等等，可是我們一定盡最大的努力，往這個方向推動。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。剛剛其他委員也提到，畢竟這樣做可以跳過仲介等等，我覺得它絕對是一個好的方向。"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["沈委員伯洋：雖然MOU的審查、也就是我們前面講的是另一件事，但至少這件事情希望勞動部能夠極力促成，因為這樣對勞工的保障一定是比較好的。"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，這就是直接聘僱的部分。我知道今天接下來還要審查，委員也非常多，所以我大概就先發言到這邊就好。謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請黃仁委員、黃仁委員，黃仁委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"154290","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154290","tool":"pyannote","id":"154290-pyannote"},"job_id":"Q5zTz1Tn2AAADyd0","queued_at":"2024-06-26 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\"以\", \"start\": 109.862, \"end\": 109.962, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 109.962, \"end\": 110.262, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 110.262, \"end\": 110.702, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 110.702, \"end\": 111.123, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 111.123, \"end\": 111.263, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 111.263, \"end\": 111.363, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 111.363, \"end\": 111.383, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 111.383, \"end\": 111.403, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 113.404, \"end\": 126.007, \"text\": \"因為我在看2024年2月22勞動部有一個澄清稿的時候這邊有提到說就是我紅色的部分說簽了以後依這個條約締結法的規定受立法院的監督那我們就來看一下這個條約締結法因為條約締結法前面的這個第三條第一項這個是條約那第二個就是這個所謂的協定是指條約以外內容對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 113.404, \"end\": 113.804, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 113.804, \"end\": 113.944, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 113.944, \"end\": 114.104, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 114.104, \"end\": 114.965, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 114.965, \"end\": 115.905, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 115.905, \"end\": 116.345, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 116.345, \"end\": 116.465, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 116.465, \"end\": 116.585, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 116.585, \"end\": 116.745, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"澄\", \"start\": 116.745, \"end\": 116.925, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 116.925, \"end\": 117.105, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"稿\", \"start\": 117.105, 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{\"start\": 137.09, \"end\": 161.77, \"text\": \"約國各方具有拘束力的國際書面的協定所以協定基本上要被查這個是沒有什麼問題但MOU的這一個拘束力到底有多大呢就是說我們剛剛可以看到就是說MOU其實也有簽了但是到最後也沒有辦法進行下去所以這一件事情要把它納進來我還是覺得說勞動部這邊可能也要一個立場因為如果今天我們確定MOU就是要拿來做審查那可能以後MOU都要審查了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 137.09, \"end\": 137.291, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 137.291, \"end\": 137.511, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 137.511, \"end\": 137.651, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 137.651, \"end\": 137.831, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"拘\", \"start\": 137.831, \"end\": 138.071, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"束\", \"start\": 138.071, \"end\": 138.351, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 138.351, \"end\": 138.612, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 138.612, \"end\": 139.432, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 139.432, \"end\": 139.572, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": 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\"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 304.941, \"end\": 305.141, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 305.141, \"end\": 305.621, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 305.621, \"end\": 305.741, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 305.741, \"end\": 305.761, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 305.761, \"end\": 305.781, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"駐\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 307.302, \"end\": 307.322, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 335.49, \"end\": 335.51, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,622 --> 00:00:24,457\n謝謝主席。有請部長,謝謝。好,請部長。委員好。好,部長好。那這個我等一下這個PowerPoint打開。不過因為畢竟這個我並不是勞工的專長,所以我大概會有幾個事情還是從外交的角度。但第一件事情想先請問,就是說,這可以按。\n\n2\n00:00:27,131 --> 00:00:52,426\n因為我們是從2月16日開始發生這件事情那4月2日的時候是送這個行政院說要備查那4月19日的時候呢說要改成做審查這大概這個時程那中間這個轉換呢看起來應該是因為有這個移工聯盟的這個記者會啦說這一個說說是不是這個為什麼要先簽MOU啊是不是要實質的審查啦那但是我這集沒有幾個比較小的問題第一個就是\n\n3\n00:00:53,806 --> 00:01:09,736\n之前我們在簽MOU的時候,因為這四個是我們台灣目前移工最多的國家,那我們是都有先簽MOU嗎?還是說有些都直接簽協定?都是MOU。都有先MOU是不是?對,是。可是都沒有經過審查。\n\n4\n00:01:13,638 --> 00:01:32,087\n所以我知道菲律賓跟印尼應該是都有先簽MOU是不是然後再進入協定越南跟泰國不確定但總之MOU本身並沒有經過審查應該是這樣子再來就是有沒有有一些狀況就是說我們是有簽了但是後來並沒有引入勞工的有這樣的狀況嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:34,228 --> 00:01:51,403\n蒙古就是,孟加拉也是,緬甸可能也是,所以就是說因為MOU的性質就是類似像意象書,所以在這個狀況到底要怎麼去做審查,我覺得這是一件蠻有疑問的事情,但它竟然已經,我覺得立法院已經做成這個決定了,所以我們還是要去討論它的實質內容。\n\n6\n00:01:53,404 --> 00:02:06,007\n因為我在看2024年2月22勞動部有一個澄清稿的時候這邊有提到說就是我紅色的部分說簽了以後依這個條約締結法的規定受立法院的監督那我們就來看一下這個條約締結法因為條約締結法前面的這個第三條第一項這個是條約那第二個就是這個所謂的協定是指條約以外內容對\n\n7\n00:02:17,090 --> 00:02:41,770\n約國各方具有拘束力的國際書面的協定所以協定基本上要被查這個是沒有什麼問題但MOU的這一個拘束力到底有多大呢就是說我們剛剛可以看到就是說MOU其實也有簽了但是到最後也沒有辦法進行下去所以這一件事情要把它納進來我還是覺得說勞動部這邊可能也要一個立場因為如果今天我們確定MOU就是要拿來做審查那可能以後MOU都要審查了\n\n8\n00:02:42,991 --> 00:03:04,685\n這個可能也會造成我覺得對委員來講也是蠻大的一個負荷我覺得這一點我覺得可能還是要先釐清一下那再來就是這個我就先跳過再來就是我們在立法院這一邊我們能夠做的事情因為MOU到底能不能放在法律裡面放在我們的這個職權裡面做審查這個當然是先打一個問號但即使我們今天能夠審查\n\n9\n00:03:05,586 --> 00:03:30,698\n按照條文的規定看起來我們要嘛就是全部都退回去嘛我們沒辦法再做細部的一個變更不然因為它只是一個意向書而已所以要嘛就是全部退回去要嘛就是全部都OK是不是部長是不是這樣的一個狀況是是yesorno就是這樣所以在這個審查的過程當中我想要因為我們今天國防外交之所以會聯席可能也是因為這個原因因為如果我們最後的結果就是要嘛就存查要嘛就直接退回去\n\n10\n00:03:31,198 --> 00:03:56,650\n那今天退回去的狀況之下在外交這件事情會不會有所影響我明天也會問外交部長但是我想問一下勞動部對於這件事情的看法因為畢竟你們才是真正去跟對方接觸的那在外交上面會不會有什麼影響呢我想這一次真的很難得就是印度方非常的積極我現在如果說這個MOU不幸沒有通過而被退回這當然對雙方關係會是個傷害啊\n\n11\n00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:20,354\n所以這就是變成說我們在這一份報告裡面讓其他立法委員在審查的時候因為我相信很多人會關心台灣勞工的權益啦然後呢以及我們對於社會的評估啦我覺得那都是正當的那都是應該值得討論的但是因為不一定每個人都對外交這件事情熟悉所以呢可能也必須也要請部長多多也是跟委員們溝通\n\n12\n00:04:21,615 --> 00:04:47,609\n他畢竟還是會有一些外交的衝擊在我們身為國防外交的委員我們當然不樂見嘛對不對所以要怎麼打到一個平衡我覺得是重要的但是也是可能必須麻煩這個勞動部要多多跟其他委員來做相關的說明好那再來就是剛剛一直提到的這個直接聘僱的可能性因為剛剛有提到說這絕對是好事啦那但是說有困難可不可以再告訴大家一下那個困難的點目前是在哪裡\n\n13\n00:04:49,172 --> 00:05:05,781\n這是一個全新的經驗這不是我們現在台灣自己內部的那種職聘而是如果我們依照外國的經驗來看它一定是政府跟企業要合作的啦這都是企業在海外然後我們政府跟企業搭配然後這個大家去那邊甚至駐點\n\n14\n00:05:07,302 --> 00:05:07,322\n謝謝委員\n\n15\n00:05:35,490 --> 00:05:35,510\n好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5622\t24457\t謝謝主席。有請部長,謝謝。好,請部長。委員好。好,部長好。那這個我等一下這個PowerPoint打開。不過因為畢竟這個我並不是勞工的專長,所以我大概會有幾個事情還是從外交的角度。但第一件事情想先請問,就是說,這可以按。\n27131\t52426\t因為我們是從2月16日開始發生這件事情那4月2日的時候是送這個行政院說要備查那4月19日的時候呢說要改成做審查這大概這個時程那中間這個轉換呢看起來應該是因為有這個移工聯盟的這個記者會啦說這一個說說是不是這個為什麼要先簽MOU啊是不是要實質的審查啦那但是我這集沒有幾個比較小的問題第一個就是\n53806\t69736\t之前我們在簽MOU的時候,因為這四個是我們台灣目前移工最多的國家,那我們是都有先簽MOU嗎?還是說有些都直接簽協定?都是MOU。都有先MOU是不是?對,是。可是都沒有經過審查。\n73638\t92087\t所以我知道菲律賓跟印尼應該是都有先簽MOU是不是然後再進入協定越南跟泰國不確定但總之MOU本身並沒有經過審查應該是這樣子再來就是有沒有有一些狀況就是說我們是有簽了但是後來並沒有引入勞工的有這樣的狀況嗎?\n94228\t111403\t蒙古就是,孟加拉也是,緬甸可能也是,所以就是說因為MOU的性質就是類似像意象書,所以在這個狀況到底要怎麼去做審查,我覺得這是一件蠻有疑問的事情,但它竟然已經,我覺得立法院已經做成這個決定了,所以我們還是要去討論它的實質內容。\n113404\t126007\t因為我在看2024年2月22勞動部有一個澄清稿的時候這邊有提到說就是我紅色的部分說簽了以後依這個條約締結法的規定受立法院的監督那我們就來看一下這個條約締結法因為條約締結法前面的這個第三條第一項這個是條約那第二個就是這個所謂的協定是指條約以外內容對\n137090\t161770\t約國各方具有拘束力的國際書面的協定所以協定基本上要被查這個是沒有什麼問題但MOU的這一個拘束力到底有多大呢就是說我們剛剛可以看到就是說MOU其實也有簽了但是到最後也沒有辦法進行下去所以這一件事情要把它納進來我還是覺得說勞動部這邊可能也要一個立場因為如果今天我們確定MOU就是要拿來做審查那可能以後MOU都要審查了\n162991\t184685\t這個可能也會造成我覺得對委員來講也是蠻大的一個負荷我覺得這一點我覺得可能還是要先釐清一下那再來就是這個我就先跳過再來就是我們在立法院這一邊我們能夠做的事情因為MOU到底能不能放在法律裡面放在我們的這個職權裡面做審查這個當然是先打一個問號但即使我們今天能夠審查\n185586\t210698\t按照條文的規定看起來我們要嘛就是全部都退回去嘛我們沒辦法再做細部的一個變更不然因為它只是一個意向書而已所以要嘛就是全部退回去要嘛就是全部都OK 是不是部長是不是這樣的一個狀況是是yes or no就是這樣所以在這個審查的過程當中我想要因為我們今天國防外交之所以會聯席可能也是因為這個原因因為如果我們最後的結果就是要嘛就存查要嘛就直接退回去\n211198\t236650\t那今天退回去的狀況之下在外交這件事情會不會有所影響我明天也會問外交部長但是我想問一下勞動部對於這件事情的看法因為畢竟你們才是真正去跟對方接觸的那在外交上面會不會有什麼影響呢我想這一次真的很難得就是印度方非常的積極我現在如果說這個MOU不幸沒有通過而被退回這當然對雙方關係會是個傷害啊\n239920\t260354\t所以這就是變成說我們在這一份報告裡面讓其他立法委員在審查的時候因為我相信很多人會關心台灣勞工的權益啦然後呢以及我們對於社會的評估啦我覺得那都是正當的那都是應該值得討論的但是因為不一定每個人都對外交這件事情熟悉所以呢可能也必須也要請部長多多也是跟委員們溝通\n261615\t287609\t他畢竟還是會有一些外交的衝擊在我們身為國防外交的委員我們當然不樂見嘛 對不對所以要怎麼打到一個平衡我覺得是重要的但是也是可能必須麻煩這個勞動部要多多跟其他委員來做相關的說明好那再來就是剛剛一直提到的這個直接聘僱的可能性因為剛剛有提到說這絕對是好事啦那但是說有困難可不可以再告訴大家一下那個困難的點目前是在哪裡\n289172\t305781\t這是一個全新的經驗這不是我們現在台灣自己內部的那種職聘而是如果我們依照外國的經驗來看它一定是政府跟企業要合作的啦這都是企業在海外然後我們政府跟企業搭配然後這個大家去那邊甚至駐點\n307302\t307322\t謝謝委員\n335490\t335510\t好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席。有請部長,謝謝。好,請部長。委員好。好,部長好。那這個我等一下這個PowerPoint打開。不過因為畢竟這個我並不是勞工的專長,所以我大概會有幾個事情還是從外交的角度。但第一件事情想先請問,就是說,這可以按。\n因為我們是從2月16日開始發生這件事情那4月2日的時候是送這個行政院說要備查那4月19日的時候呢說要改成做審查這大概這個時程那中間這個轉換呢看起來應該是因為有這個移工聯盟的這個記者會啦說這一個說說是不是這個為什麼要先簽MOU啊是不是要實質的審查啦那但是我這集沒有幾個比較小的問題第一個就是\n之前我們在簽MOU的時候,因為這四個是我們台灣目前移工最多的國家,那我們是都有先簽MOU嗎?還是說有些都直接簽協定?都是MOU。都有先MOU是不是?對,是。可是都沒有經過審查。\n所以我知道菲律賓跟印尼應該是都有先簽MOU是不是然後再進入協定越南跟泰國不確定但總之MOU本身並沒有經過審查應該是這樣子再來就是有沒有有一些狀況就是說我們是有簽了但是後來並沒有引入勞工的有這樣的狀況嗎?\n蒙古就是,孟加拉也是,緬甸可能也是,所以就是說因為MOU的性質就是類似像意象書,所以在這個狀況到底要怎麼去做審查,我覺得這是一件蠻有疑問的事情,但它竟然已經,我覺得立法院已經做成這個決定了,所以我們還是要去討論它的實質內容。\n因為我在看2024年2月22勞動部有一個澄清稿的時候這邊有提到說就是我紅色的部分說簽了以後依這個條約締結法的規定受立法院的監督那我們就來看一下這個條約締結法因為條約締結法前面的這個第三條第一項這個是條約那第二個就是這個所謂的協定是指條約以外內容對\n約國各方具有拘束力的國際書面的協定所以協定基本上要被查這個是沒有什麼問題但MOU的這一個拘束力到底有多大呢就是說我們剛剛可以看到就是說MOU其實也有簽了但是到最後也沒有辦法進行下去所以這一件事情要把它納進來我還是覺得說勞動部這邊可能也要一個立場因為如果今天我們確定MOU就是要拿來做審查那可能以後MOU都要審查了\n這個可能也會造成我覺得對委員來講也是蠻大的一個負荷我覺得這一點我覺得可能還是要先釐清一下那再來就是這個我就先跳過再來就是我們在立法院這一邊我們能夠做的事情因為MOU到底能不能放在法律裡面放在我們的這個職權裡面做審查這個當然是先打一個問號但即使我們今天能夠審查\n按照條文的規定看起來我們要嘛就是全部都退回去嘛我們沒辦法再做細部的一個變更不然因為它只是一個意向書而已所以要嘛就是全部退回去要嘛就是全部都OK 是不是部長是不是這樣的一個狀況是是yes or no就是這樣所以在這個審查的過程當中我想要因為我們今天國防外交之所以會聯席可能也是因為這個原因因為如果我們最後的結果就是要嘛就存查要嘛就直接退回去\n那今天退回去的狀況之下在外交這件事情會不會有所影響我明天也會問外交部長但是我想問一下勞動部對於這件事情的看法因為畢竟你們才是真正去跟對方接觸的那在外交上面會不會有什麼影響呢我想這一次真的很難得就是印度方非常的積極我現在如果說這個MOU不幸沒有通過而被退回這當然對雙方關係會是個傷害啊\n所以這就是變成說我們在這一份報告裡面讓其他立法委員在審查的時候因為我相信很多人會關心台灣勞工的權益啦然後呢以及我們對於社會的評估啦我覺得那都是正當的那都是應該值得討論的但是因為不一定每個人都對外交這件事情熟悉所以呢可能也必須也要請部長多多也是跟委員們溝通\n他畢竟還是會有一些外交的衝擊在我們身為國防外交的委員我們當然不樂見嘛 對不對所以要怎麼打到一個平衡我覺得是重要的但是也是可能必須麻煩這個勞動部要多多跟其他委員來做相關的說明好那再來就是剛剛一直提到的這個直接聘僱的可能性因為剛剛有提到說這絕對是好事啦那但是說有困難可不可以再告訴大家一下那個困難的點目前是在哪裡\n這是一個全新的經驗這不是我們現在台灣自己內部的那種職聘而是如果我們依照外國的經驗來看它一定是政府跟企業要合作的啦這都是企業在海外然後我們政府跟企業搭配然後這個大家去那邊甚至駐點\n謝謝委員\n好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.622 --> 00:24.457\n謝謝主席。有請部長,謝謝。好,請部長。委員好。好,部長好。那這個我等一下這個PowerPoint打開。不過因為畢竟這個我並不是勞工的專長,所以我大概會有幾個事情還是從外交的角度。但第一件事情想先請問,就是說,這可以按。\n\n00:27.131 --> 00:52.426\n因為我們是從2月16日開始發生這件事情那4月2日的時候是送這個行政院說要備查那4月19日的時候呢說要改成做審查這大概這個時程那中間這個轉換呢看起來應該是因為有這個移工聯盟的這個記者會啦說這一個說說是不是這個為什麼要先簽MOU啊是不是要實質的審查啦那但是我這集沒有幾個比較小的問題第一個就是\n\n00:53.806 --> 01:09.736\n之前我們在簽MOU的時候,因為這四個是我們台灣目前移工最多的國家,那我們是都有先簽MOU嗎?還是說有些都直接簽協定?都是MOU。都有先MOU是不是?對,是。可是都沒有經過審查。\n\n01:13.638 --> 01:32.087\n所以我知道菲律賓跟印尼應該是都有先簽MOU是不是然後再進入協定越南跟泰國不確定但總之MOU本身並沒有經過審查應該是這樣子再來就是有沒有有一些狀況就是說我們是有簽了但是後來並沒有引入勞工的有這樣的狀況嗎?\n\n01:34.228 --> 01:51.403\n蒙古就是,孟加拉也是,緬甸可能也是,所以就是說因為MOU的性質就是類似像意象書,所以在這個狀況到底要怎麼去做審查,我覺得這是一件蠻有疑問的事情,但它竟然已經,我覺得立法院已經做成這個決定了,所以我們還是要去討論它的實質內容。\n\n01:53.404 --> 02:06.007\n因為我在看2024年2月22勞動部有一個澄清稿的時候這邊有提到說就是我紅色的部分說簽了以後依這個條約締結法的規定受立法院的監督那我們就來看一下這個條約締結法因為條約締結法前面的這個第三條第一項這個是條約那第二個就是這個所謂的協定是指條約以外內容對\n\n02:17.090 --> 02:41.770\n約國各方具有拘束力的國際書面的協定所以協定基本上要被查這個是沒有什麼問題但MOU的這一個拘束力到底有多大呢就是說我們剛剛可以看到就是說MOU其實也有簽了但是到最後也沒有辦法進行下去所以這一件事情要把它納進來我還是覺得說勞動部這邊可能也要一個立場因為如果今天我們確定MOU就是要拿來做審查那可能以後MOU都要審查了\n\n02:42.991 --> 03:04.685\n這個可能也會造成我覺得對委員來講也是蠻大的一個負荷我覺得這一點我覺得可能還是要先釐清一下那再來就是這個我就先跳過再來就是我們在立法院這一邊我們能夠做的事情因為MOU到底能不能放在法律裡面放在我們的這個職權裡面做審查這個當然是先打一個問號但即使我們今天能夠審查\n\n03:05.586 --> 03:30.698\n按照條文的規定看起來我們要嘛就是全部都退回去嘛我們沒辦法再做細部的一個變更不然因為它只是一個意向書而已所以要嘛就是全部退回去要嘛就是全部都OK是不是部長是不是這樣的一個狀況是是yesorno就是這樣所以在這個審查的過程當中我想要因為我們今天國防外交之所以會聯席可能也是因為這個原因因為如果我們最後的結果就是要嘛就存查要嘛就直接退回去\n\n03:31.198 --> 03:56.650\n那今天退回去的狀況之下在外交這件事情會不會有所影響我明天也會問外交部長但是我想問一下勞動部對於這件事情的看法因為畢竟你們才是真正去跟對方接觸的那在外交上面會不會有什麼影響呢我想這一次真的很難得就是印度方非常的積極我現在如果說這個MOU不幸沒有通過而被退回這當然對雙方關係會是個傷害啊\n\n03:59.920 --> 04:20.354\n所以這就是變成說我們在這一份報告裡面讓其他立法委員在審查的時候因為我相信很多人會關心台灣勞工的權益啦然後呢以及我們對於社會的評估啦我覺得那都是正當的那都是應該值得討論的但是因為不一定每個人都對外交這件事情熟悉所以呢可能也必須也要請部長多多也是跟委員們溝通\n\n04:21.615 --> 04:47.609\n他畢竟還是會有一些外交的衝擊在我們身為國防外交的委員我們當然不樂見嘛對不對所以要怎麼打到一個平衡我覺得是重要的但是也是可能必須麻煩這個勞動部要多多跟其他委員來做相關的說明好那再來就是剛剛一直提到的這個直接聘僱的可能性因為剛剛有提到說這絕對是好事啦那但是說有困難可不可以再告訴大家一下那個困難的點目前是在哪裡\n\n04:49.172 --> 05:05.781\n這是一個全新的經驗這不是我們現在台灣自己內部的那種職聘而是如果我們依照外國的經驗來看它一定是政府跟企業要合作的啦這都是企業在海外然後我們政府跟企業搭配然後這個大家去那邊甚至駐點\n\n05:07.302 --> 05:07.322\n謝謝委員\n\n05:35.490 --> 05:35.510\n好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.622,"end":24.457,"text":"謝謝主席。有請部長,謝謝。好,請部長。委員好。好,部長好。那這個我等一下這個PowerPoint打開。不過因為畢竟這個我並不是勞工的專長,所以我大概會有幾個事情還是從外交的角度。但第一件事情想先請問,就是說,這可以按。"},{"start":27.131,"end":52.426,"text":"因為我們是從2月16日開始發生這件事情那4月2日的時候是送這個行政院說要備查那4月19日的時候呢說要改成做審查這大概這個時程那中間這個轉換呢看起來應該是因為有這個移工聯盟的這個記者會啦說這一個說說是不是這個為什麼要先簽MOU啊是不是要實質的審查啦那但是我這集沒有幾個比較小的問題第一個就是"},{"start":53.806,"end":69.736,"text":"之前我們在簽MOU的時候,因為這四個是我們台灣目前移工最多的國家,那我們是都有先簽MOU嗎?還是說有些都直接簽協定?都是MOU。都有先MOU是不是?對,是。可是都沒有經過審查。"},{"start":73.638,"end":92.087,"text":"所以我知道菲律賓跟印尼應該是都有先簽MOU是不是然後再進入協定越南跟泰國不確定但總之MOU本身並沒有經過審查應該是這樣子再來就是有沒有有一些狀況就是說我們是有簽了但是後來並沒有引入勞工的有這樣的狀況嗎?"},{"start":94.228,"end":111.403,"text":"蒙古就是,孟加拉也是,緬甸可能也是,所以就是說因為MOU的性質就是類似像意象書,所以在這個狀況到底要怎麼去做審查,我覺得這是一件蠻有疑問的事情,但它竟然已經,我覺得立法院已經做成這個決定了,所以我們還是要去討論它的實質內容。"},{"start":113.404,"end":126.007,"text":"因為我在看2024年2月22勞動部有一個澄清稿的時候這邊有提到說就是我紅色的部分說簽了以後依這個條約締結法的規定受立法院的監督那我們就來看一下這個條約締結法因為條約締結法前面的這個第三條第一項這個是條約那第二個就是這個所謂的協定是指條約以外內容對"},{"start":137.09,"end":161.77,"text":"約國各方具有拘束力的國際書面的協定所以協定基本上要被查這個是沒有什麼問題但MOU的這一個拘束力到底有多大呢就是說我們剛剛可以看到就是說MOU其實也有簽了但是到最後也沒有辦法進行下去所以這一件事情要把它納進來我還是覺得說勞動部這邊可能也要一個立場因為如果今天我們確定MOU就是要拿來做審查那可能以後MOU都要審查了"},{"start":162.991,"end":184.685,"text":"這個可能也會造成我覺得對委員來講也是蠻大的一個負荷我覺得這一點我覺得可能還是要先釐清一下那再來就是這個我就先跳過再來就是我們在立法院這一邊我們能夠做的事情因為MOU到底能不能放在法律裡面放在我們的這個職權裡面做審查這個當然是先打一個問號但即使我們今天能夠審查"},{"start":185.586,"end":210.698,"text":"按照條文的規定看起來我們要嘛就是全部都退回去嘛我們沒辦法再做細部的一個變更不然因為它只是一個意向書而已所以要嘛就是全部退回去要嘛就是全部都OK 是不是部長是不是這樣的一個狀況是是yes or no就是這樣所以在這個審查的過程當中我想要因為我們今天國防外交之所以會聯席可能也是因為這個原因因為如果我們最後的結果就是要嘛就存查要嘛就直接退回去"},{"start":211.198,"end":236.65,"text":"那今天退回去的狀況之下在外交這件事情會不會有所影響我明天也會問外交部長但是我想問一下勞動部對於這件事情的看法因為畢竟你們才是真正去跟對方接觸的那在外交上面會不會有什麼影響呢我想這一次真的很難得就是印度方非常的積極我現在如果說這個MOU不幸沒有通過而被退回這當然對雙方關係會是個傷害啊"},{"start":239.92,"end":260.354,"text":"所以這就是變成說我們在這一份報告裡面讓其他立法委員在審查的時候因為我相信很多人會關心台灣勞工的權益啦然後呢以及我們對於社會的評估啦我覺得那都是正當的那都是應該值得討論的但是因為不一定每個人都對外交這件事情熟悉所以呢可能也必須也要請部長多多也是跟委員們溝通"},{"start":261.615,"end":287.609,"text":"他畢竟還是會有一些外交的衝擊在我們身為國防外交的委員我們當然不樂見嘛 對不對所以要怎麼打到一個平衡我覺得是重要的但是也是可能必須麻煩這個勞動部要多多跟其他委員來做相關的說明好那再來就是剛剛一直提到的這個直接聘僱的可能性因為剛剛有提到說這絕對是好事啦那但是說有困難可不可以再告訴大家一下那個困難的點目前是在哪裡"},{"start":289.172,"end":305.781,"text":"這是一個全新的經驗這不是我們現在台灣自己內部的那種職聘而是如果我們依照外國的經驗來看它一定是政府跟企業要合作的啦這都是企業在海外然後我們政府跟企業搭配然後這個大家去那邊甚至駐點"},{"start":307.302,"end":307.322,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":335.49,"end":335.51,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}}}}