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12:01:01","影片長度":"00:10:59","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員賴士葆等21人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅智強等24人分別擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T11:50:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T12:01:01+08:00","duration":659,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":29,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-29"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":522,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時50分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：顧部長好。本次漢光四十號演習有幾個比較重大的變革，包括取消攻擊軍的角色、取消預演以及演習的時間與地點不受限。在取消演習預演及演習時間與地點不受限方面，大概可以預期會有不少的混亂及錯誤百出的狀況，但本席還是在這裡公開肯定部長面對問題及承擔風險的勇氣，因為這樣才是最貼近實際作戰的情況。2020年漢光演習的時候，蔡英文曾經說過，仗要怎麼打、部隊要怎麼練、作戰任務在哪裡，部隊就應該在哪裡訓練。從這次的漢光演習看起來，作戰的任務在哪裡，部隊就會在哪裡訓練，這個部分其實是有努力去實踐的，但是仗在哪裡打、部隊怎麼練，本席有點不同的意見，像這次漢光演習實兵操演的部分取消了攻擊軍的角色，請問部長兩個問題，第一個，實兵對抗演習的目的是分出勝負，或是考核野戰部隊整體的作戰表現，並且驗證計畫在現地實施時有無問題及效果？"],["顧部長立雄：我想漢光實兵驗證的層級就是要驗證實戰訓練的成果，誘導三軍各級部隊執行聯合作戰計畫的演練，所以目的當然就是要檢驗平時訓練的成果能否遂行聯合作戰計畫。"],["林委員憶君：第二個問題，你覺得電腦兵推與實兵對抗演習是否可以互相取代呢？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，各有各的功能，電腦兵棋推演是很重要的，因為它是到戰役層級來做，一般的實兵演練則是旅級以下的戰術層級，應該是這樣講。"],["林委員憶君：過去漢光演習的實兵操演都有紅藍軍對抗，其實最被詬病的是每次都照著藍軍必勝的特定劇本在走，表演的性質比較濃厚。本席認為這次把攻擊軍的角色拿掉恐怕會失去整個演練的意義，因為實兵對抗演習的目的其實不在勝負，而是在於驗證兵推實施的效果，找尋實際實施計畫可能會出現的錯誤，並藉由實兵不實彈的仿真演習達到縮小戰訓差距的目的。目前實兵對抗仍然是世界主要國家重要的練兵模式，而且解放軍在朱日和基地建成後頻繁的進行聯合對抗演習，所以目前實兵抗戰仍是一個無法取代的訓練方式。請教部長，你知不知道目前國軍有哪些稱得上是實兵對抗的年度演習呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有一些實兵對抗的操演大概都還在進行著，詳細的部分是否請……"],["張次長俊志：委員好，我是訓練次長室。我們三軍一直都有實兵對抗的操演，包含剛剛洪委員提到的陸軍長青操演也都有。第二點，漢光的實兵除了包含剛剛部長說明的，驗證我們的實戰化訓練之外，它最重要的是驗證我們的固安作戰計畫。我們這次只採取少部分的海上及空中兵力當成假設敵，傳統以往都是用特戰部隊或陸戰隊擔任假設敵，但是針對它自己在戰時的任務，我們要利用這段時間讓它在它的作戰任務及作戰地境來磨練它的作戰計畫，同時讓官兵熟稔它的作戰場域，我們是基於這個原因，所以它與傳統對抗性的演練不同，在這邊特別向委員做個說明。"],["顧部長立雄：年度的對抗性演練還是會存在的。"],["林委員憶君：還是有的，OK。"],["顧部長立雄：只是這次漢光要讓所有的部隊，特別是地面部隊，讓所有的部隊都能落實，除了有必要的兵力之外，有些兵力要做戰備及紀律的訓練之外，其他都要落實演練自己的防衛作戰任務，讓他們熟悉戰場的環境與戰鬥的程序。"],["林委員憶君：其實講了半天就是證實實兵對抗還是有其重要性，所以像剛才說的……"],["顧部長立雄：實兵對抗還是會有的。"],["林委員憶君：對，除了剛才說的長青操演對抗演習之外，年度漢光演習是國軍很難得的模擬解放軍陸海空三棲聯合進犯的大規模演習，部長可能還是要考慮是否要保留實兵對抗。其實我本身有一個建議，如果考量到我們的航特部及登陸戰車大隊等需要熟悉戰時任務的話，其實也可以縮小紅軍的規模，譬如旅級的規模擔任紅軍是不是可以改由營級或排級每年輪流擔任紅軍，這樣可以從聯兵旅抽調一些單位出來一起扮演紅軍，無論在實兵驗證或熟悉戰時任務上都是可以兼顧的，部長，是否可以回去研議看看？我覺得兵棋推演及軍事上演習的輸贏其實不重要，實際上對手的能力越強越能磨練出我們的戰鬥力，而且越困難的處境想必更能激發指揮官將資源發揮到最大的效果。本席對於部長帶領國軍改革以及將所有訓練推向實戰化其實有很高的期待，希望我們能夠做到備戰而不畏戰、能戰而不求戰。"],["顧部長立雄：是，謝謝委員的指導。"],["林委員憶君：我還有一個問題要請教部長，今年漢光演習的時序是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：你是說時間嗎？"],["林委員憶君：不是，時序是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：從戰力保存、整體防空、海上聯合截擊到國土防衛作戰。"],["林委員憶君：這次漢光演習雖然沒有納入戰備跑道的起降，但本席要特別提醒部長，在戰力保存的階段，我們空軍的戰力保存成效其實是有關作戰的能力，要是喪失了空優，臺海防衛就會陷入非常不利的局面。請教部長，目前我們的空軍戰力保存有哪些手段呢？"],["顧部長立雄：這個是不是請空軍來說明？"],["曹參謀長進平：委員好，我是空軍參謀長曹進平。有關戰力保存的手段，其實針對不同的載具有不同的方法，包括空中的飛行器以及機場的分散部署，其他還包括地面的防衛部隊、戰術雷達都有不同的方式在執行，按照我們的戰術目的分別規劃。"],["林委員憶君：其實共軍很了解空優的重要性，我們的機場跑道都是共軍第一個打擊的目標，他們可以算出每一個波次要用多少的飛彈去打就會癱瘓我們整個機場，因此，使用公路的戰備跑道是空軍重要的戰力保存手段，部長是否知道這5條公路的戰備跑道過去有幾次的起降演習？"],["曹參謀長進平：報告委員，這個還是由我為您報告，關於這5個戰備跑道，過去在佳冬與民雄曾經做過2次，其他的各段都分別做過1次。"],["林委員憶君：OK，所以空軍的戰力保存是非常重要的，然而每次戰備道的開設其實是很不容易，也不方便，但是戰備道的起降如果沒有納入國軍的演習，而且過去5條戰備道只做過7次的起降演習，每一條戰備道大約就只有1次或2次而已，這樣看來都是停留在驗證的階段，我這樣講應該沒有錯吧？"],["曹參謀長進平：報告委員，我來補充報告一下。一般比較常聽到的就是公路戰備道，其實戰備道有兩個等級，一個叫機場戰備道，一個叫公路戰備道，所以在每個機場裡也有戰備道的設置，我們平常為了要保持熟練，在機場戰備道的部分會儘量多演練，在公路戰備道的部分則是儘量減少擾民的程度，因為它的影響程度比較大，所以配合每年演習的構想，按照需求來規劃。"],["林委員憶君：好。就起降機種與數量來看，我發現每次起降演習基本上都是三種型號的主力戰機各一架，再加上鷹眼的預演機，但是空軍未來可能會有超過200架的F-16、130架的IDF及五十幾架的幻象，這三型的主力戰機總共有380架左右，如果臺海發生衝突的時候，空軍要做戰力保存的話，這5條戰備道會只有15架的戰機起降嗎？這樣空軍的戰力保存實戰化是不是有很大的進步空間呢？是不是需要改善呢？"],["曹參謀長進平：是，委員的計算依據看起來是有道理，但戰力保存的手段不是完全靠公路戰備道來執行，還有其他方式來配套，而公路戰備道是可以提供必要時作為戰機起降及必要的整補以支應後續的作戰，謝謝委員指導。"],["林委員憶君：還是希望能夠做好整個可能性的推演，維持國防戰力，保護我們臺灣人民的安全，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請翁曉玲委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-29","speakers":["馬文君","賴士葆","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","黃國昌","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","林憶君","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢；二、審查\n本院委員馬文君等 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,433 --> 00:00:10,496\n謝謝主席,有請顧部長。請顧部長。是,林委員好。\n\n2\n00:00:19,466 --> 00:00:38,203\n顧部長好本次漢光四十號演習有幾個比較重大的變革包括取消攻擊軍的角色還有取消預演以及演習的時間和地點不受限在取消預演和取消演習時間的地點方面大概可以預期會有不少的混亂和錯誤擺出的\n\n3\n00:00:40,365 --> 00:00:48,630\n人等24人、委員王鴻薇等2人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等\n\n4\n00:00:56,274 --> 00:00:58,437\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24\n\n5\n00:01:13,618 --> 00:01:16,619\n漢光演習時兵操演的部分取消了攻擊軍的角色。那請問部長這有兩個問題。第一個是,時兵對抗演習的目的是分出勝負還是考核野戰部隊整體的作戰表現,並且驗證計畫在限地實施時有無問題和效果。\n\n6\n00:01:35,063 --> 00:02:01,632\n我想應該講漢光這個實兵就實兵驗證的這個層級就是要來驗證實戰訓練的成果然後來誘導這個三軍各級部隊來執行聯合作戰計畫的這個演練那所以目的當然就是要檢驗這個平時訓練的成果然後能不能夠遂行這一個聯合作戰計畫這樣\n\n7\n00:02:03,578 --> 00:02:25,304\n那第二個問題就是你覺得電腦兵推跟實兵對抗演習是否可以互相取代呢?沒有,這個各有各的功能,各有各的功能。這個電腦的兵棋的這個推演是很重要的,因為它是到一個甚至是對象,這到戰役層級我們來做。那一般的實兵演練我們是到了這個\n\n8\n00:02:27,645 --> 00:02:32,588\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n\n9\n00:02:52,717 --> 00:03:06,765\n恐怕會有一點失去演練的這個整個意義因為實兵對抗演習的目的其實不在勝負而是在於驗證兵推實施的效果找尋實際實施計劃可能會出現的錯誤還有藉由實兵不實彈的仿真演習可以達到縮小戰訓差距的目的\n\n10\n00:03:15,149 --> 00:03:38,386\n所以目前我看實兵對抗仍然是世界主要國家重要的練兵的模式然後解放軍在諸日和基地建成後其實頻繁的用來做聯合對抗演習所以實兵抗戰目前還是沒有辦法取代的是一個訓練的方式那請教部長你知不知道國軍目前有哪些是稱得上的實兵對抗的連度演習呢?\n\n11\n00:03:40,908 --> 00:04:04,084\n我們有一些實兵對抗的一個操演大概都還是在進行著,那我想這個詳細的事先做記者。委員好,我是訓練次長施。你好。我們實兵對抗的操演我們一直都有,三軍都有。包含剛剛洪委員所提到的陸軍這個長青操演,他都有。\n\n12\n00:04:04,784 --> 00:04:23,265\n那第二點跟您報告漢光的實兵他主要包含部長剛剛所說明的來驗證我們的那個實戰化訓練他最重要是驗證我的孤彎作戰計畫那我們這次只有採取少部分海上跟空中兵力當成假設的那傳統以往\n\n13\n00:04:24,386 --> 00:04:48,974\n他都用特戰部隊或者像總長所講陸戰隊來擔任一個假設敵但是他自己在戰時任務我們要利用這段時間讓他在他的作戰任務、他的作戰地境來磨練他的作戰計畫同時讓官兵守忍他的作戰場域所以我們基於這個原因他是跟沒有是我們傳統這種對抗性的演練在這邊特別跟委員做個說明\n\n14\n00:04:50,875 --> 00:05:06,162\n年度的對抗性演練還是會存在的只是我們這一次漢光要讓所有的部隊特別是地面部隊讓他所有的部隊都落實就是說除了有必要的那個兵力之外呢有一些兵力要做那個戰備\n\n15\n00:05:08,904 --> 00:05:15,152\n及警力訓練以外,其他都要落實演練自己的防衛作戰任務,讓他熟悉戰場環境及戰鬥程序。\n\n16\n00:05:24,344 --> 00:05:40,626\n對,像剛才說的長青操演這個對抗演習之外其實年度漢光其實它是非常是國軍很難得的模擬解放軍陸海空三七聯合進犯的一個大規模的演習所以其實部長可能是還是要考慮一下是不是要\n\n17\n00:05:41,107 --> 00:05:42,108\n委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2\n\n18\n00:05:57,290 --> 00:05:59,731\n規模擔任紅軍的時候是不是可以改成營級還是排級每年輪流這樣擔任紅軍其實這樣從聯兵裡可以抽掉一些單位出來一起扮演紅軍其實這樣在實兵驗證還有熟悉戰時任務上其實都是可以兼顧到的所以部長的話看要不要回去研議看看因為我覺得兵棋推演\n\n19\n00:06:19,378 --> 00:06:25,841\n還有軍事上面的演習的輸贏其實不重要實際上對手能力越強其實越能磨練出我們的戰鬥力而且越困難的處境想定更能激發指揮官將資源發揮到最大的效果所以北溪這邊其實對部長領帶領國軍改革還有把所有的訓練推向實戰化其實有很高的期待希望我們能夠做到備戰而不畏戰能戰而不求戰\n\n20\n00:06:50,858 --> 00:06:56,102\n謝謝委員的指導現在我還有一個問題想要請教部長今年漢光演習的時序是什麼?你說時間嗎?不是的,時序是什麼?從戰力保存、整體防空、海上聯合階級到這個國土防衛作戰\n\n21\n00:07:10,330 --> 00:07:34,169\n這次漢光演習雖然沒有納入戰備跑道的起降但本席特別提醒一下部長就是戰力保存的階段我們空軍的戰力保存成效其實是有關作戰的人力要是喪失了空優其實台海防衛會陷入非常不利的局面所以請教部長說目前我們空軍戰力保存有哪些手段呢這個是不是請空軍\n\n22\n00:07:38,106 --> 00:07:58,491\n委員好我是空軍參謀長曹敬平有關戰力保存的手段其實分成不同的針對不同的載具有不同的方法包括空中的飛行器還有機場的分散部署我們其他還有包括地面的防衛部隊戰術雷達它都有不同的方式在執行按照我們戰術目的來分別規劃\n\n23\n00:08:00,391 --> 00:08:26,681\n其實共軍很了解空優的重要性所以我們機場跑道都是共軍第一打擊的目標所以我們現在算出他們可以算出每一個波次要用多少的飛彈去打所以才就會癱瘓我們的整個機場所以現在使用公路的戰備跑道是空軍重要的戰力保存的手段那部長知道我們這五條公路的戰備跑道過去有幾次的起降演習嗎?\n\n24\n00:08:31,644 --> 00:08:38,709\n五個戰備道過去在加東跟民雄曾經做過兩次,其他的各段分別做過一次。\n\n25\n00:08:42,538 --> 00:09:07,103\n所以其實空軍的戰力保存是非常重要的所以每次戰備道的開設其實很不容易也不方便但戰備道的起降其實如果沒有納入國軍的演習那這樣的話五條戰備道過去如果做只做過七次的起降的演習在每一個戰備道大約就是只有一次還是兩次而已這樣看來都是停留在驗證的階段這樣我講應該沒有錯吧\n\n26\n00:09:09,824 --> 00:09:36,486\n報告我來補充報告一下其實戰備道我們一般大家一般比較常接觸的就聽到公路戰備道其實戰備道有兩個等級一個叫做機場戰備道一個叫公路戰備道所以在每個機場裡面也有戰備道的設置那我們平常為了要保持熟練在機場戰備道的部分盡量多演練但是在公路戰備道部分盡量減少擾民的程度因為他影響程度比較大\n\n27\n00:09:36,866 --> 00:09:40,467\n所謂配合每年的這演習的構想按照需求來規劃。其實我這樣看起降機種跟數量其實有發現到每次的起降演習基本上都是三種型號還有主力戰機各一架還有再加上鷹眼的預演機但是我們空軍未來可能會有超過200架的F16還有130架的IDF跟50幾架的幻象\n\n28\n00:10:00,313 --> 00:10:20,693\n那三型的主力戰機總共有380架左右。如果台海發生衝突的時候,空軍要做戰力保存的話,這五條戰備道會只有15架的戰機起降嗎?這樣空軍的戰力保存實戰化是不是有很大的進步呢?有很大進步空間需要改善呢?\n\n29\n00:10:21,394 --> 00:10:48,425\n是的委員您說的這個計算的依據看起來是有道理但是呢其實戰力保存的手段不是都是完全靠公路戰備道來執行有其他方式來配套那公路戰備道是可以提供他在必要時候做戰機起降跟必要的整補來支應後續的作戰謝謝委員指導好謝謝還是希望能夠做好整個可能性的整個推演然後維持國防戰力保護我們台灣人民的安全好謝謝\n\n30\n00:10:55,629 --> 00:10:57,857\n接下來請翁小林委員上台質詢。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7433\t10496\t謝謝主席,有請顧部長。請顧部長。是,林委員好。\n19466\t38203\t顧部長好本次漢光四十號演習有幾個比較重大的變革包括取消攻擊軍的角色還有取消預演以及演習的時間和地點不受限在取消預演和取消演習時間的地點方面大概可以預期會有不少的混亂和錯誤擺出的\n40365\t48630\t人等24人、委員王鴻薇等2人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等\n56274\t58437\t三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24\n73618\t76619\t漢光演習時兵操演的部分取消了攻擊軍的角色。那請問部長這有兩個問題。第一個是,時兵對抗演習的目的是分出勝負還是考核野戰部隊整體的作戰表現,並且驗證計畫在限地實施時有無問題和效果。\n95063\t121632\t我想應該講漢光這個實兵就實兵驗證的這個層級就是要來驗證實戰訓練的成果然後來誘導這個三軍各級部隊來執行聯合作戰計畫的這個演練那所以目的當然就是要檢驗這個平時訓練的成果然後能不能夠遂行這一個聯合作戰計畫這樣\n123578\t145304\t那第二個問題就是你覺得電腦兵推跟實兵對抗演習是否可以互相取代呢?沒有,這個各有各的功能,各有各的功能。這個電腦的兵棋的這個推演是很重要的,因為它是到一個甚至是對象,這到戰役層級我們來做。那一般的實兵演練我們是到了這個\n147645\t152588\t三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n172717\t186765\t恐怕會有一點失去演練的這個整個意義因為實兵對抗演習的目的其實不在勝負而是在於驗證兵推實施的效果找尋實際實施計劃可能會出現的錯誤還有藉由實兵不實彈的仿真演習可以達到縮小戰訓差距的目的\n195149\t218386\t所以目前我看實兵對抗仍然是世界主要國家重要的練兵的模式然後解放軍在諸日和基地建成後其實頻繁的用來做聯合對抗演習所以實兵抗戰目前還是沒有辦法取代的是一個訓練的方式那請教部長你知不知道國軍目前有哪些是稱得上的實兵對抗的連度演習呢?\n220908\t244084\t我們有一些實兵對抗的一個操演大概都還是在進行著,那我想這個詳細的事先做記者。委員好,我是訓練次長施。你好。我們實兵對抗的操演我們一直都有,三軍都有。包含剛剛洪委員所提到的陸軍這個長青操演,他都有。\n244784\t263265\t那第二點跟您報告漢光的實兵他主要包含部長剛剛所說明的來驗證我們的那個實戰化訓練他最重要是驗證我的孤彎作戰計畫那我們這次只有採取少部分海上跟空中兵力當成假設的那傳統以往\n264386\t288974\t他都用特戰部隊或者像總長所講陸戰隊來擔任一個假設敵但是他自己在戰時任務我們要利用這段時間讓他在他的作戰任務、他的作戰地境來磨練他的作戰計畫同時讓官兵守忍他的作戰場域所以我們基於這個原因他是跟沒有是我們傳統這種對抗性的演練在這邊特別跟委員做個說明\n290875\t306162\t年度的對抗性演練還是會存在的只是我們這一次漢光要讓所有的部隊特別是地面部隊讓他所有的部隊都落實就是說除了有必要的那個兵力之外呢有一些兵力要做那個戰備\n308904\t315152\t及警力訓練以外,其他都要落實演練自己的防衛作戰任務,讓他熟悉戰場環境及戰鬥程序。\n324344\t340626\t對,像剛才說的長青操演這個對抗演習之外其實年度漢光其實它是非常是國軍很難得的模擬解放軍陸海空三七聯合進犯的一個大規模的演習所以其實部長可能是還是要考慮一下是不是要\n341107\t342108\t委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2\n357290\t359731\t規模擔任紅軍的時候是不是可以改成營級還是排級每年輪流這樣擔任紅軍其實這樣從聯兵裡可以抽掉一些單位出來一起扮演紅軍其實這樣在實兵驗證還有熟悉戰時任務上其實都是可以兼顧到的所以部長的話看要不要回去研議看看因為我覺得兵棋推演\n379378\t385841\t還有軍事上面的演習的輸贏其實不重要實際上對手能力越強其實越能磨練出我們的戰鬥力而且越困難的處境想定更能激發指揮官將資源發揮到最大的效果所以北溪這邊其實對部長領帶領國軍改革還有把所有的訓練推向實戰化其實有很高的期待希望我們能夠做到備戰而不畏戰能戰而不求戰\n410858\t416102\t謝謝委員的指導現在我還有一個問題想要請教部長今年漢光演習的時序是什麼?你說時間嗎?不是的,時序是什麼?從戰力保存、整體防空、海上聯合階級到這個國土防衛作戰\n430330\t454169\t這次漢光演習雖然沒有納入戰備跑道的起降但本席特別提醒一下部長就是戰力保存的階段我們空軍的戰力保存成效其實是有關作戰的人力要是喪失了空優其實台海防衛會陷入非常不利的局面所以請教部長說目前我們空軍戰力保存有哪些手段呢這個是不是請空軍\n458106\t478491\t委員好 我是空軍參謀長曹敬平有關戰力保存的手段其實分成不同的針對不同的載具有不同的方法包括空中的飛行器還有機場的分散部署我們其他還有包括地面的防衛部隊戰術雷達它都有不同的方式在執行按照我們戰術目的來分別規劃\n480391\t506681\t其實共軍很了解空優的重要性所以我們機場跑道都是共軍第一打擊的目標所以我們現在算出他們可以算出每一個波次要用多少的飛彈去打所以才就會癱瘓我們的整個機場所以現在使用公路的戰備跑道是空軍重要的戰力保存的手段那部長知道我們這五條公路的戰備跑道過去有幾次的起降演習嗎?\n511644\t518709\t五個戰備道過去在加東跟民雄曾經做過兩次,其他的各段分別做過一次。\n522538\t547103\t所以其實空軍的戰力保存是非常重要的所以每次戰備道的開設其實很不容易也不方便但戰備道的起降其實如果沒有納入國軍的演習那這樣的話五條戰備道過去如果做只做過七次的起降的演習在每一個戰備道大約就是只有一次還是兩次而已這樣看來都是停留在驗證的階段這樣我講應該沒有錯吧\n549824\t576486\t報告我來補充報告一下其實戰備道我們一般大家一般比較常接觸的就聽到公路戰備道其實戰備道有兩個等級一個叫做機場戰備道一個叫公路戰備道所以在每個機場裡面也有戰備道的設置那我們平常為了要保持熟練在機場戰備道的部分盡量多演練但是在公路戰備道部分盡量減少擾民的程度因為他影響程度比較大\n576866\t580467\t所謂配合每年的這演習的構想按照需求來規劃。其實我這樣看起降機種跟數量其實有發現到每次的起降演習基本上都是三種型號還有主力戰機各一架還有再加上鷹眼的預演機但是我們空軍未來可能會有超過200架的F16還有130架的IDF跟50幾架的幻象\n600313\t620693\t那三型的主力戰機總共有380架左右。如果台海發生衝突的時候,空軍要做戰力保存的話,這五條戰備道會只有15架的戰機起降嗎?這樣空軍的戰力保存實戰化是不是有很大的進步呢?有很大進步空間需要改善呢?\n621394\t648425\t是的委員您說的這個計算的依據看起來是有道理但是呢其實戰力保存的手段不是都是完全靠公路戰備道來執行有其他方式來配套那公路戰備道是可以提供他在必要時候做戰機起降跟必要的整補來支應後續的作戰謝謝委員指導好謝謝還是希望能夠做好整個可能性的整個推演然後維持國防戰力保護我們台灣人民的安全好謝謝\n655629\t657857\t接下來請翁小林委員上台質詢。\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請顧部長。請顧部長。是,林委員好。\n顧部長好本次漢光四十號演習有幾個比較重大的變革包括取消攻擊軍的角色還有取消預演以及演習的時間和地點不受限在取消預演和取消演習時間的地點方面大概可以預期會有不少的混亂和錯誤擺出的\n人等24人、委員王鴻薇等2人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24\n漢光演習時兵操演的部分取消了攻擊軍的角色。那請問部長這有兩個問題。第一個是,時兵對抗演習的目的是分出勝負還是考核野戰部隊整體的作戰表現,並且驗證計畫在限地實施時有無問題和效果。\n我想應該講漢光這個實兵就實兵驗證的這個層級就是要來驗證實戰訓練的成果然後來誘導這個三軍各級部隊來執行聯合作戰計畫的這個演練那所以目的當然就是要檢驗這個平時訓練的成果然後能不能夠遂行這一個聯合作戰計畫這樣\n那第二個問題就是你覺得電腦兵推跟實兵對抗演習是否可以互相取代呢?沒有,這個各有各的功能,各有各的功能。這個電腦的兵棋的這個推演是很重要的,因為它是到一個甚至是對象,這到戰役層級我們來做。那一般的實兵演練我們是到了這個\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n恐怕會有一點失去演練的這個整個意義因為實兵對抗演習的目的其實不在勝負而是在於驗證兵推實施的效果找尋實際實施計劃可能會出現的錯誤還有藉由實兵不實彈的仿真演習可以達到縮小戰訓差距的目的\n所以目前我看實兵對抗仍然是世界主要國家重要的練兵的模式然後解放軍在諸日和基地建成後其實頻繁的用來做聯合對抗演習所以實兵抗戰目前還是沒有辦法取代的是一個訓練的方式那請教部長你知不知道國軍目前有哪些是稱得上的實兵對抗的連度演習呢?\n我們有一些實兵對抗的一個操演大概都還是在進行著,那我想這個詳細的事先做記者。委員好,我是訓練次長施。你好。我們實兵對抗的操演我們一直都有,三軍都有。包含剛剛洪委員所提到的陸軍這個長青操演,他都有。\n那第二點跟您報告漢光的實兵他主要包含部長剛剛所說明的來驗證我們的那個實戰化訓練他最重要是驗證我的孤彎作戰計畫那我們這次只有採取少部分海上跟空中兵力當成假設的那傳統以往\n他都用特戰部隊或者像總長所講陸戰隊來擔任一個假設敵但是他自己在戰時任務我們要利用這段時間讓他在他的作戰任務、他的作戰地境來磨練他的作戰計畫同時讓官兵守忍他的作戰場域所以我們基於這個原因他是跟沒有是我們傳統這種對抗性的演練在這邊特別跟委員做個說明\n年度的對抗性演練還是會存在的只是我們這一次漢光要讓所有的部隊特別是地面部隊讓他所有的部隊都落實就是說除了有必要的那個兵力之外呢有一些兵力要做那個戰備\n及警力訓練以外,其他都要落實演練自己的防衛作戰任務,讓他熟悉戰場環境及戰鬥程序。\n對,像剛才說的長青操演這個對抗演習之外其實年度漢光其實它是非常是國軍很難得的模擬解放軍陸海空三七聯合進犯的一個大規模的演習所以其實部長可能是還是要考慮一下是不是要\n委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2\n規模擔任紅軍的時候是不是可以改成營級還是排級每年輪流這樣擔任紅軍其實這樣從聯兵裡可以抽掉一些單位出來一起扮演紅軍其實這樣在實兵驗證還有熟悉戰時任務上其實都是可以兼顧到的所以部長的話看要不要回去研議看看因為我覺得兵棋推演\n還有軍事上面的演習的輸贏其實不重要實際上對手能力越強其實越能磨練出我們的戰鬥力而且越困難的處境想定更能激發指揮官將資源發揮到最大的效果所以北溪這邊其實對部長領帶領國軍改革還有把所有的訓練推向實戰化其實有很高的期待希望我們能夠做到備戰而不畏戰能戰而不求戰\n謝謝委員的指導現在我還有一個問題想要請教部長今年漢光演習的時序是什麼?你說時間嗎?不是的,時序是什麼?從戰力保存、整體防空、海上聯合階級到這個國土防衛作戰\n這次漢光演習雖然沒有納入戰備跑道的起降但本席特別提醒一下部長就是戰力保存的階段我們空軍的戰力保存成效其實是有關作戰的人力要是喪失了空優其實台海防衛會陷入非常不利的局面所以請教部長說目前我們空軍戰力保存有哪些手段呢這個是不是請空軍\n委員好 我是空軍參謀長曹敬平有關戰力保存的手段其實分成不同的針對不同的載具有不同的方法包括空中的飛行器還有機場的分散部署我們其他還有包括地面的防衛部隊戰術雷達它都有不同的方式在執行按照我們戰術目的來分別規劃\n其實共軍很了解空優的重要性所以我們機場跑道都是共軍第一打擊的目標所以我們現在算出他們可以算出每一個波次要用多少的飛彈去打所以才就會癱瘓我們的整個機場所以現在使用公路的戰備跑道是空軍重要的戰力保存的手段那部長知道我們這五條公路的戰備跑道過去有幾次的起降演習嗎?\n五個戰備道過去在加東跟民雄曾經做過兩次,其他的各段分別做過一次。\n所以其實空軍的戰力保存是非常重要的所以每次戰備道的開設其實很不容易也不方便但戰備道的起降其實如果沒有納入國軍的演習那這樣的話五條戰備道過去如果做只做過七次的起降的演習在每一個戰備道大約就是只有一次還是兩次而已這樣看來都是停留在驗證的階段這樣我講應該沒有錯吧\n報告我來補充報告一下其實戰備道我們一般大家一般比較常接觸的就聽到公路戰備道其實戰備道有兩個等級一個叫做機場戰備道一個叫公路戰備道所以在每個機場裡面也有戰備道的設置那我們平常為了要保持熟練在機場戰備道的部分盡量多演練但是在公路戰備道部分盡量減少擾民的程度因為他影響程度比較大\n所謂配合每年的這演習的構想按照需求來規劃。其實我這樣看起降機種跟數量其實有發現到每次的起降演習基本上都是三種型號還有主力戰機各一架還有再加上鷹眼的預演機但是我們空軍未來可能會有超過200架的F16還有130架的IDF跟50幾架的幻象\n那三型的主力戰機總共有380架左右。如果台海發生衝突的時候,空軍要做戰力保存的話,這五條戰備道會只有15架的戰機起降嗎?這樣空軍的戰力保存實戰化是不是有很大的進步呢?有很大進步空間需要改善呢?\n是的委員您說的這個計算的依據看起來是有道理但是呢其實戰力保存的手段不是都是完全靠公路戰備道來執行有其他方式來配套那公路戰備道是可以提供他在必要時候做戰機起降跟必要的整補來支應後續的作戰謝謝委員指導好謝謝還是希望能夠做好整個可能性的整個推演然後維持國防戰力保護我們台灣人民的安全好謝謝\n接下來請翁小林委員上台質詢。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.433 --> 00:10.496\n謝謝主席,有請顧部長。請顧部長。是,林委員好。\n\n00:19.466 --> 00:38.203\n顧部長好本次漢光四十號演習有幾個比較重大的變革包括取消攻擊軍的角色還有取消預演以及演習的時間和地點不受限在取消預演和取消演習時間的地點方面大概可以預期會有不少的混亂和錯誤擺出的\n\n00:40.365 --> 00:48.630\n人等24人、委員王鴻薇等2人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等\n\n00:56.274 --> 00:58.437\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24\n\n01:13.618 --> 01:16.619\n漢光演習時兵操演的部分取消了攻擊軍的角色。那請問部長這有兩個問題。第一個是,時兵對抗演習的目的是分出勝負還是考核野戰部隊整體的作戰表現,並且驗證計畫在限地實施時有無問題和效果。\n\n01:35.063 --> 02:01.632\n我想應該講漢光這個實兵就實兵驗證的這個層級就是要來驗證實戰訓練的成果然後來誘導這個三軍各級部隊來執行聯合作戰計畫的這個演練那所以目的當然就是要檢驗這個平時訓練的成果然後能不能夠遂行這一個聯合作戰計畫這樣\n\n02:03.578 --> 02:25.304\n那第二個問題就是你覺得電腦兵推跟實兵對抗演習是否可以互相取代呢?沒有,這個各有各的功能,各有各的功能。這個電腦的兵棋的這個推演是很重要的,因為它是到一個甚至是對象,這到戰役層級我們來做。那一般的實兵演練我們是到了這個\n\n02:27.645 --> 02:32.588\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2\n\n02:52.717 --> 03:06.765\n恐怕會有一點失去演練的這個整個意義因為實兵對抗演習的目的其實不在勝負而是在於驗證兵推實施的效果找尋實際實施計劃可能會出現的錯誤還有藉由實兵不實彈的仿真演習可以達到縮小戰訓差距的目的\n\n03:15.149 --> 03:38.386\n所以目前我看實兵對抗仍然是世界主要國家重要的練兵的模式然後解放軍在諸日和基地建成後其實頻繁的用來做聯合對抗演習所以實兵抗戰目前還是沒有辦法取代的是一個訓練的方式那請教部長你知不知道國軍目前有哪些是稱得上的實兵對抗的連度演習呢?\n\n03:40.908 --> 04:04.084\n我們有一些實兵對抗的一個操演大概都還是在進行著,那我想這個詳細的事先做記者。委員好,我是訓練次長施。你好。我們實兵對抗的操演我們一直都有,三軍都有。包含剛剛洪委員所提到的陸軍這個長青操演,他都有。\n\n04:04.784 --> 04:23.265\n那第二點跟您報告漢光的實兵他主要包含部長剛剛所說明的來驗證我們的那個實戰化訓練他最重要是驗證我的孤彎作戰計畫那我們這次只有採取少部分海上跟空中兵力當成假設的那傳統以往\n\n04:24.386 --> 04:48.974\n他都用特戰部隊或者像總長所講陸戰隊來擔任一個假設敵但是他自己在戰時任務我們要利用這段時間讓他在他的作戰任務、他的作戰地境來磨練他的作戰計畫同時讓官兵守忍他的作戰場域所以我們基於這個原因他是跟沒有是我們傳統這種對抗性的演練在這邊特別跟委員做個說明\n\n04:50.875 --> 05:06.162\n年度的對抗性演練還是會存在的只是我們這一次漢光要讓所有的部隊特別是地面部隊讓他所有的部隊都落實就是說除了有必要的那個兵力之外呢有一些兵力要做那個戰備\n\n05:08.904 --> 05:15.152\n及警力訓練以外,其他都要落實演練自己的防衛作戰任務,讓他熟悉戰場環境及戰鬥程序。\n\n05:24.344 --> 05:40.626\n對,像剛才說的長青操演這個對抗演習之外其實年度漢光其實它是非常是國軍很難得的模擬解放軍陸海空三七聯合進犯的一個大規模的演習所以其實部長可能是還是要考慮一下是不是要\n\n05:41.107 --> 05:42.108\n委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2\n\n05:57.290 --> 05:59.731\n規模擔任紅軍的時候是不是可以改成營級還是排級每年輪流這樣擔任紅軍其實這樣從聯兵裡可以抽掉一些單位出來一起扮演紅軍其實這樣在實兵驗證還有熟悉戰時任務上其實都是可以兼顧到的所以部長的話看要不要回去研議看看因為我覺得兵棋推演\n\n06:19.378 --> 06:25.841\n還有軍事上面的演習的輸贏其實不重要實際上對手能力越強其實越能磨練出我們的戰鬥力而且越困難的處境想定更能激發指揮官將資源發揮到最大的效果所以北溪這邊其實對部長領帶領國軍改革還有把所有的訓練推向實戰化其實有很高的期待希望我們能夠做到備戰而不畏戰能戰而不求戰\n\n06:50.858 --> 06:56.102\n謝謝委員的指導現在我還有一個問題想要請教部長今年漢光演習的時序是什麼?你說時間嗎?不是的,時序是什麼?從戰力保存、整體防空、海上聯合階級到這個國土防衛作戰\n\n07:10.330 --> 07:34.169\n這次漢光演習雖然沒有納入戰備跑道的起降但本席特別提醒一下部長就是戰力保存的階段我們空軍的戰力保存成效其實是有關作戰的人力要是喪失了空優其實台海防衛會陷入非常不利的局面所以請教部長說目前我們空軍戰力保存有哪些手段呢這個是不是請空軍\n\n07:38.106 --> 07:58.491\n委員好我是空軍參謀長曹敬平有關戰力保存的手段其實分成不同的針對不同的載具有不同的方法包括空中的飛行器還有機場的分散部署我們其他還有包括地面的防衛部隊戰術雷達它都有不同的方式在執行按照我們戰術目的來分別規劃\n\n08:00.391 --> 08:26.681\n其實共軍很了解空優的重要性所以我們機場跑道都是共軍第一打擊的目標所以我們現在算出他們可以算出每一個波次要用多少的飛彈去打所以才就會癱瘓我們的整個機場所以現在使用公路的戰備跑道是空軍重要的戰力保存的手段那部長知道我們這五條公路的戰備跑道過去有幾次的起降演習嗎?\n\n08:31.644 --> 08:38.709\n五個戰備道過去在加東跟民雄曾經做過兩次,其他的各段分別做過一次。\n\n08:42.538 --> 09:07.103\n所以其實空軍的戰力保存是非常重要的所以每次戰備道的開設其實很不容易也不方便但戰備道的起降其實如果沒有納入國軍的演習那這樣的話五條戰備道過去如果做只做過七次的起降的演習在每一個戰備道大約就是只有一次還是兩次而已這樣看來都是停留在驗證的階段這樣我講應該沒有錯吧\n\n09:09.824 --> 09:36.486\n報告我來補充報告一下其實戰備道我們一般大家一般比較常接觸的就聽到公路戰備道其實戰備道有兩個等級一個叫做機場戰備道一個叫公路戰備道所以在每個機場裡面也有戰備道的設置那我們平常為了要保持熟練在機場戰備道的部分盡量多演練但是在公路戰備道部分盡量減少擾民的程度因為他影響程度比較大\n\n09:36.866 --> 09:40.467\n所謂配合每年的這演習的構想按照需求來規劃。其實我這樣看起降機種跟數量其實有發現到每次的起降演習基本上都是三種型號還有主力戰機各一架還有再加上鷹眼的預演機但是我們空軍未來可能會有超過200架的F16還有130架的IDF跟50幾架的幻象\n\n10:00.313 --> 10:20.693\n那三型的主力戰機總共有380架左右。如果台海發生衝突的時候,空軍要做戰力保存的話,這五條戰備道會只有15架的戰機起降嗎?這樣空軍的戰力保存實戰化是不是有很大的進步呢?有很大進步空間需要改善呢?\n\n10:21.394 --> 10:48.425\n是的委員您說的這個計算的依據看起來是有道理但是呢其實戰力保存的手段不是都是完全靠公路戰備道來執行有其他方式來配套那公路戰備道是可以提供他在必要時候做戰機起降跟必要的整補來支應後續的作戰謝謝委員指導好謝謝還是希望能夠做好整個可能性的整個推演然後維持國防戰力保護我們台灣人民的安全好謝謝\n\n10:55.629 --> 10:57.857\n接下來請翁小林委員上台質詢。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.433,"end":10.496,"text":"謝謝主席,有請顧部長。請顧部長。是,林委員好。"},{"start":19.466,"end":38.203,"text":"顧部長好本次漢光四十號演習有幾個比較重大的變革包括取消攻擊軍的角色還有取消預演以及演習的時間和地點不受限在取消預演和取消演習時間的地點方面大概可以預期會有不少的混亂和錯誤擺出的"},{"start":40.365,"end":48.63,"text":"人等24人、委員王鴻薇等2人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等"},{"start":56.274,"end":58.437,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24"},{"start":73.618,"end":76.619,"text":"漢光演習時兵操演的部分取消了攻擊軍的角色。那請問部長這有兩個問題。第一個是,時兵對抗演習的目的是分出勝負還是考核野戰部隊整體的作戰表現,並且驗證計畫在限地實施時有無問題和效果。"},{"start":95.063,"end":121.632,"text":"我想應該講漢光這個實兵就實兵驗證的這個層級就是要來驗證實戰訓練的成果然後來誘導這個三軍各級部隊來執行聯合作戰計畫的這個演練那所以目的當然就是要檢驗這個平時訓練的成果然後能不能夠遂行這一個聯合作戰計畫這樣"},{"start":123.578,"end":145.304,"text":"那第二個問題就是你覺得電腦兵推跟實兵對抗演習是否可以互相取代呢?沒有,這個各有各的功能,各有各的功能。這個電腦的兵棋的這個推演是很重要的,因為它是到一個甚至是對象,這到戰役層級我們來做。那一般的實兵演練我們是到了這個"},{"start":147.645,"end":152.588,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":172.717,"end":186.765,"text":"恐怕會有一點失去演練的這個整個意義因為實兵對抗演習的目的其實不在勝負而是在於驗證兵推實施的效果找尋實際實施計劃可能會出現的錯誤還有藉由實兵不實彈的仿真演習可以達到縮小戰訓差距的目的"},{"start":195.149,"end":218.386,"text":"所以目前我看實兵對抗仍然是世界主要國家重要的練兵的模式然後解放軍在諸日和基地建成後其實頻繁的用來做聯合對抗演習所以實兵抗戰目前還是沒有辦法取代的是一個訓練的方式那請教部長你知不知道國軍目前有哪些是稱得上的實兵對抗的連度演習呢?"},{"start":220.908,"end":244.084,"text":"我們有一些實兵對抗的一個操演大概都還是在進行著,那我想這個詳細的事先做記者。委員好,我是訓練次長施。你好。我們實兵對抗的操演我們一直都有,三軍都有。包含剛剛洪委員所提到的陸軍這個長青操演,他都有。"},{"start":244.784,"end":263.265,"text":"那第二點跟您報告漢光的實兵他主要包含部長剛剛所說明的來驗證我們的那個實戰化訓練他最重要是驗證我的孤彎作戰計畫那我們這次只有採取少部分海上跟空中兵力當成假設的那傳統以往"},{"start":264.386,"end":288.974,"text":"他都用特戰部隊或者像總長所講陸戰隊來擔任一個假設敵但是他自己在戰時任務我們要利用這段時間讓他在他的作戰任務、他的作戰地境來磨練他的作戰計畫同時讓官兵守忍他的作戰場域所以我們基於這個原因他是跟沒有是我們傳統這種對抗性的演練在這邊特別跟委員做個說明"},{"start":290.875,"end":306.162,"text":"年度的對抗性演練還是會存在的只是我們這一次漢光要讓所有的部隊特別是地面部隊讓他所有的部隊都落實就是說除了有必要的那個兵力之外呢有一些兵力要做那個戰備"},{"start":308.904,"end":315.152,"text":"及警力訓練以外,其他都要落實演練自己的防衛作戰任務,讓他熟悉戰場環境及戰鬥程序。"},{"start":324.344,"end":340.626,"text":"對,像剛才說的長青操演這個對抗演習之外其實年度漢光其實它是非常是國軍很難得的模擬解放軍陸海空三七聯合進犯的一個大規模的演習所以其實部長可能是還是要考慮一下是不是要"},{"start":341.107,"end":342.108,"text":"委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":357.29,"end":359.731,"text":"規模擔任紅軍的時候是不是可以改成營級還是排級每年輪流這樣擔任紅軍其實這樣從聯兵裡可以抽掉一些單位出來一起扮演紅軍其實這樣在實兵驗證還有熟悉戰時任務上其實都是可以兼顧到的所以部長的話看要不要回去研議看看因為我覺得兵棋推演"},{"start":379.378,"end":385.841,"text":"還有軍事上面的演習的輸贏其實不重要實際上對手能力越強其實越能磨練出我們的戰鬥力而且越困難的處境想定更能激發指揮官將資源發揮到最大的效果所以北溪這邊其實對部長領帶領國軍改革還有把所有的訓練推向實戰化其實有很高的期待希望我們能夠做到備戰而不畏戰能戰而不求戰"},{"start":410.858,"end":416.102,"text":"謝謝委員的指導現在我還有一個問題想要請教部長今年漢光演習的時序是什麼?你說時間嗎?不是的,時序是什麼?從戰力保存、整體防空、海上聯合階級到這個國土防衛作戰"},{"start":430.33,"end":454.169,"text":"這次漢光演習雖然沒有納入戰備跑道的起降但本席特別提醒一下部長就是戰力保存的階段我們空軍的戰力保存成效其實是有關作戰的人力要是喪失了空優其實台海防衛會陷入非常不利的局面所以請教部長說目前我們空軍戰力保存有哪些手段呢這個是不是請空軍"},{"start":458.106,"end":478.491,"text":"委員好 我是空軍參謀長曹敬平有關戰力保存的手段其實分成不同的針對不同的載具有不同的方法包括空中的飛行器還有機場的分散部署我們其他還有包括地面的防衛部隊戰術雷達它都有不同的方式在執行按照我們戰術目的來分別規劃"},{"start":480.391,"end":506.681,"text":"其實共軍很了解空優的重要性所以我們機場跑道都是共軍第一打擊的目標所以我們現在算出他們可以算出每一個波次要用多少的飛彈去打所以才就會癱瘓我們的整個機場所以現在使用公路的戰備跑道是空軍重要的戰力保存的手段那部長知道我們這五條公路的戰備跑道過去有幾次的起降演習嗎?"},{"start":511.644,"end":518.709,"text":"五個戰備道過去在加東跟民雄曾經做過兩次,其他的各段分別做過一次。"},{"start":522.538,"end":547.103,"text":"所以其實空軍的戰力保存是非常重要的所以每次戰備道的開設其實很不容易也不方便但戰備道的起降其實如果沒有納入國軍的演習那這樣的話五條戰備道過去如果做只做過七次的起降的演習在每一個戰備道大約就是只有一次還是兩次而已這樣看來都是停留在驗證的階段這樣我講應該沒有錯吧"},{"start":549.824,"end":576.486,"text":"報告我來補充報告一下其實戰備道我們一般大家一般比較常接觸的就聽到公路戰備道其實戰備道有兩個等級一個叫做機場戰備道一個叫公路戰備道所以在每個機場裡面也有戰備道的設置那我們平常為了要保持熟練在機場戰備道的部分盡量多演練但是在公路戰備道部分盡量減少擾民的程度因為他影響程度比較大"},{"start":576.866,"end":580.467,"text":"所謂配合每年的這演習的構想按照需求來規劃。其實我這樣看起降機種跟數量其實有發現到每次的起降演習基本上都是三種型號還有主力戰機各一架還有再加上鷹眼的預演機但是我們空軍未來可能會有超過200架的F16還有130架的IDF跟50幾架的幻象"},{"start":600.313,"end":620.693,"text":"那三型的主力戰機總共有380架左右。如果台海發生衝突的時候,空軍要做戰力保存的話,這五條戰備道會只有15架的戰機起降嗎?這樣空軍的戰力保存實戰化是不是有很大的進步呢?有很大進步空間需要改善呢?"},{"start":621.394,"end":648.425,"text":"是的委員您說的這個計算的依據看起來是有道理但是呢其實戰力保存的手段不是都是完全靠公路戰備道來執行有其他方式來配套那公路戰備道是可以提供他在必要時候做戰機起降跟必要的整補來支應後續的作戰謝謝委員指導好謝謝還是希望能夠做好整個可能性的整個推演然後維持國防戰力保護我們台灣人民的安全好謝謝"},{"start":655.629,"end":657.857,"text":"接下來請翁小林委員上台質詢。"}]}}}}