{"id":154319,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154319","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd155598c7d012d0087b086792d041729577ffb1ee7a1289101c59471bd01b9acfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:00:13 - 12:15:24","影片長度":"00:15:11","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T12:00:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T12:15:24+08:00","duration":911,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":963,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時）主席、各位，大家午安，是不是請部長？"],["主席：好，請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，聽了你一個早上的答詢，對於大家關心的直聘問題，你第一個觀點是印度沒有所謂國對國直聘的模式，你是這樣說嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：他們確實是沒有這樣的東西。"],["林委員淑芬：那日本、韓國是什麼模式？你回答我。"],["何部長佩珊：日本跟韓國他們有直聘啦！"],["林委員淑芬：日本、韓國跟印度之間就是直聘模式！你不要再講印度沒有G to G的模式，有！日本跟韓國就是。然後，今天一早委員問的時候，你說直聘要看國家有沒有能力是吧？"],["何部長佩珊：對啊！要看我們自己，因為對於我們是全新的經驗，我們現在開始要投入來做……"],["林委員淑芬：不是看國家有沒有能力，而是看政府有沒有能力！然後，你們所持的理由還有國內仲介能力很強，你回答立委質詢時說我們的直聘要以國內直聘先行續聘，這個大家都知道，我們不再談這一塊。但你說國內的仲介能力很強，這就是我們一直跟你說的，關於仲介這一塊制度，我國過去面對4個國家都是全部放給仲介，而仲介的問題在哪裡大家都知道，就是涉及人口販運裡面的強迫勞動、高額的抵債勞務、訓練不足、國家退位，照護的專業不足。然後是買工費、仲介費，高額的抵債勞務就在這裡，這些都涉及人口販運和強迫勞動，所以在我們國家、社會各個領域，大家都在期待開放印度移工能不能有新的模式。你們一直告訴我們這次要採雙軌制，可能會有仲介加G to G的模式，但我們在這裡發現，如果勞動部都不準備、國家不願意介入，而且政府又不願意─不是不能喔！那麼名義上的雙軌實際上運作下來會只剩下單軌。我要跟你講，人家韓國引進了幾個國家的移工？我們臺灣全部引進幾個國家？臺灣有幾個國家的移工？"],["何部長佩珊：現在是四個國家嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：四加一嘛！還有印度嘛！對不對？那韓國引進幾個國家你知道嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：印度還沒開始，現在才要開始。"],["林委員淑芬：OK，我知道。那你知道韓國引進移工的國家有多少數量嗎？17個！"],["何部長佩珊：17個，是啊！"],["林委員淑芬：而我們現在只談一個印度，並要求你採G to G國對國的模式，只要求一個！但你連一個都不願意好好地做，國家不願意扛起這個責任，這不是涉及國家有沒有能力，而是政府無能啊！所以很多人都在這裡跟你陳情、也反映。","我們直接看韓國模式，它能夠運作得起來，都是國對國引進，而且數量這麼多，關鍵是他們有SPAS系統你知道吧？他們的SPAS系統。現在是不是AI時代、大數據時代、人工智慧管理的時代？部長，是不是？但你連這種系統都做不出來、也不願意做！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我沒有說不願意。"],["林委員淑芬：你又說臺灣是AI大國、資訊系統的政府、整個e化做得多好，別騙人了！你知道他們這個SPAS系統把所有移工相關部門串聯起來？而我們的國家、我們的政府就是從來都不願意串連起整個系統，無論是把引進許可、聘僱許可、還包括入出國業務許可統統整合在一起，而且公開、透明、上網，雇主可以上去看，移工也可以上去看，大家都可以使用這個系統，還包括簽證等等，這樣整合在一起很困難嗎？這個系統會困難嗎？部長，你回答看看。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我跟您報告……"],["林委員淑芬：韓國的SPAS系統對臺灣來講困不困難？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我現在就是在進行一項勞政友善化的計畫，要求勞發署現在開始檢討，把所有系統都整合在一起，然後減少雇主……"],["林委員淑芬：你們現在要做什麼系統？串聯起各部會的系統！"],["何部長佩珊：對，但這還要經過跨部會層級呢！我現在正在努力這一塊。委員，應該是……"],["林委員淑芬：你要努力多久？要多少時間給你們？"],["何部長佩珊：我希望年底前能夠看到這個系統出來。"],["林委員淑芬：跟韓國SPAS一樣的系統，可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我不能保證一定跟韓國一樣啊！"],["林委員淑芬：署長，你有沒有辦法？署長，你來講比較快。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，我們現在其實分兩個方面，第一，關於跟印度之間的直聘系統，我們現在正在參考韓國的SPAS系統。基本上，我們就是會按照委員所提到的，把跨部門資訊串接起來，這個目前……"],["林委員淑芬：韓國是從沒有經驗開始做的欸！從一開始開放移工就做這種系統、做這種制度、做這種管理，而我們已經幾十年了，我們需要什麼、哪裡需要整合，怎麼整合，整個介面要怎麼管理，我們還會不知道嗎？是沒有心，而不是沒有能力。政府退位，不願意管。部長，你剛才講到仲介能力很好。署長，我今天講SPAS系統年底以前做不做得出來？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來努力。"],["林委員淑芬：好。第二個，你說臺灣的仲介服務很好，能力很強，你知道你們的仲介評鑑為合格的優良仲介比例大概有多高嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：百分之三十幾。"],["林委員淑芬：你們去年11月發布的新聞稿，A級的有64.5%，B級的有30%，所以94%的仲介你們都評定是合格的優良仲介。你知道2016年我們修了一個就業服務法，三年免出境一天，仲介沒辦法再跨國收取不當的仲介費，沒辦法再剝削這些移工，他們轉而在臺灣境內直接要付買工費，而且大家都知道買工費是一定要付，大家都要付，除非那10%的直聘、續聘。部長，你知道買工費的行情是多少錢嗎？一個移工要繼續在臺灣續聘，要付多少買工費？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，當然仲介一定有良莠……它一定有不好的部分。"],["林委員淑芬：這是違法的喔！這不是良莠喔！每一家都有去抽喔！買工費每個都有的喔！每個都有，每家仲介都違法在收，買工費在臺灣發生，要付多少錢？"],["何部長佩珊：買工費在我們這邊是非法的。"],["林委員淑芬：本來就違法的啊！"],["何部長佩珊：對呀！"],["林委員淑芬：你們從以前到現在一年取締多少件？我問你非法的，現在七十幾萬，每個人續聘的時候都要付，你才裁罰幾件？八件。我跟你講這代表什麼？你說仲介能力很好，仲介服務很好，他們幹這種違法的勾當，你們的評鑑還是94%，都是合格的、優良的，而幹非法的事都還是A級的、B級的。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我可以跟你報告，有1,775家仲介，連續兩年評鑑A級的只有478家。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦，這478家有沒有收買工費？你敢保證絕對沒有收買工費嗎？我告訴你，我保證絕對有收買工費。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你可以跟我檢舉，好嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：你不要講檢舉這種事情，你不負責任，你們政府不願意管，退位、放任，然後你叫立委跟你檢舉，現在沒有政府了？現在是怎麼樣？政府這麼好做？叫立委來檢舉，我要你政府幹嘛？這樣子當政府，這麼簡單啊？","那我再請教你，現在RBA的移工就業零付費原則，雇主自己去負擔買工費，很多大企業都這樣子了，否則整個RBA，整個國際形象就壞掉了，你這個要先行。你們5月2日開會，也有委員在問，你們要不要做這個RBA的移工零付費原則？要不要從這裡開始試辦起？一千個人……零付費原則有沒有可能試辦？國對國引進也不可能，一個印度試辦一千人的規模，你就沒辦法做出來，SPAS系統要到年底，然後就業零付費都雇主自己去負擔，你也要表示一下，你有沒有辦法啊？我們都一直在講說可能涉及到……"],["何部長佩珊：這只能盡量努力啦！"],["林委員淑芬：高額的抵債勞務、人口販運、強迫勞動，所以過去政府一直都退位，不願意管，然後就全部交給仲介，然後在這裡，今天不會要求你這個試辦計畫國對國，不管你是雙軌還是單軌，到最後如果沒有運轉出一個模式來，就會變成仲介一軌，所以你的國對國模式，你的SPAS很重要，然後你的「G to G」要怎麼運作，也很重要。人家韓國成立了一個韓國產業人力公團，你知道的。"],["何部長佩珊：我知道。"],["林委員淑芬：對不對？公團要做什麼？這個是行政法人吧？"],["何部長佩珊：對，它是行政法人。"],["林委員淑芬：行政法人代表國家公權力。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊，它是國家介入的。"],["林委員淑芬：他們扛起什麼責任？韓國的國家扛起了負責選工，負起技能訓練，負起居留服務等，然後國家還可以受理雇主委託，代向外籍勞工簽訂勞動契約，這就是國家，而我們的國家做什麼？我們的國家做什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我也很期待能這樣……"],["林委員淑芬：對，所以你要這裡開始試驗……"],["何部長佩珊：可是這個真的是一個很大的工程。"],["林委員淑芬：但我要講你從印度……全立法院，包括衛環委員會的委員，到現在都沒有苛責你過去，也沒有要求過去那四個國家的模式。大家對你們的期待，只不過是從現在印度模式試辦計畫，一個國家一千個人開始，我們來run出這一套運作的模式，所以現在只是要求你，這一千個移工的引進，我們來找出一個新的模式，我們把過去強迫勞動的、高額抵債勞務的，統統都改善，國家扛起責任，不是只有仲介有責任。仲介引進來的，很多人沒有專業訓練，沒有技能訓練，沒有服務訓練，很多雇主也不滿意啊，這個服務也不專業啊！可是人家韓國負責選工、技能訓練、居留服務，還可以幫忙簽訂勞動契約，再加上他們的SPAS系統，我們講這才像是一個國家。日本用什麼模式？日本國家做了什麼？部長，日本引進印度勞工，他們跟NSDC引進，執行也是採「G to G」的模式，而且大家都知道，日本也是用一個公法人在處理，日本是國家公法人在處理，他們根本沒有在討論仲介費，因為沒有這一種事情。","而我現在看到你們的開會會議紀錄，包括我們的外交部駐印度代表處說本處尊重國內單位意見，倘若初期採取國家政府直聘方式引進，他們願意協助瞭解主責機構的窗口，願意承擔起來，並依照勞動部的需求，跟印方洽談。唯考量臺、印之間彼此能見度不足，國內對印度的刻板印象嚴重，所以他們提出建議，我講這是官方外交部願意扛起這個責任，它說建議初期可以透過採取直聘方式，引進優質印度移工，讓臺灣社會更加熟悉印度移工，這是外交部說的。外交部下一段說，未來再視市場需求，研議採取多元引進方式，以確保雇主跟勞工權益都受到保障。外交部都直接建議初期國對國引進，外交部還有另外一點建議，我唸給你聽，到印度方面直聘的機制除了NSDC以外，還有一種是由印度政府指定，所以並不是印度沒有國對國的模式，都不是，所以這個問題我們來看只有政府要不要做，有沒有要扛起責任，就只是這種態度而已，而不是不能，也沒有印度方面拒絕，沒有這一種事。","部長，我們MOU簽了，看起來好像是雙軌，但是我自己個人很怕最後會變成單軌，叫做仲介，跟以前一樣，那就落入了一些在野黨的前立委嘴巴講出來的，這個是不是有很大的利益已經在那裡先布局了，有人這樣說，但我覺得不一定是嘛，政府應該要採取魄力和行動，來證明國家願意扛起這個責任。"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢，待會我們可以再討論。","接下來我們請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"154319","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154319","tool":"pyannote","id":"154319-pyannote"},"job_id":"RYZd31bcfA376f5f","queued_at":"2024-06-26 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\"好\", \"start\": 905.724, \"end\": 906.005, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 906.005, \"end\": 906.245, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"淑\", \"start\": 906.245, \"end\": 906.265, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"芬\", \"start\": 906.265, \"end\": 906.465, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 906.465, \"end\": 906.485, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 906.485, \"end\": 906.505, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,047 --> 00:00:33,618\n主席,各位大家午安。是不是要請我們這個部長?好,請何部長。部長,聽了你一個早上的答詢,大概大家在關心的職聘的問題,你第一個觀點,你說印度沒有所謂的國對國的職聘的模式,你是這樣說嗎?他們確實是沒有這樣的東西。那日本、韓國是什麼模式?你回答我。日本跟韓國他們有職聘啊。\n\n2\n00:00:34,813 --> 00:00:50,381\n日本韓國跟印度就是職聘模式你不要不要講說印度沒有G2G的模式有日本跟韓國就是然後你在今天一早委員問的時候你就說職聘要看國家有沒有能力是吧\n\n3\n00:00:51,499 --> 00:01:09,255\n對阿,我們的就是要看我們自己因為我們是全新的經驗所以我們現在開始...不是看國家有沒有能力是看政府有沒有能力然後你們所值的理由要講說國內的仲介能力很強你回答立委的質詢你說我們的執聘要在國內執聘先行續聘這個大家都知道就不談我們不再談這一塊你說國內的仲介能力很強\n\n4\n00:01:17,822 --> 00:01:30,525\n所以這就是我們一直在跟你說的仲介這一塊制度我們過去的四個國家都全部放給仲介然後仲介的這個問題在哪裡大家都知道人口販運裡面的強迫勞動高額的抵債勞務訓練不足國家退位專業不足所以照護的專業不足然後呢買工費、仲介費\n\n5\n00:01:43,949 --> 00:01:47,771\n這就是高額的抵債勞務在這裡都涉及到人口販運和強迫勞動在這裡面而我們國家大家社會各個領域都在期待說開放印度的移工能不能有新的模式你們一直告訴我們說這一次要採雙軌制\n\n6\n00:02:03,618 --> 00:02:22,874\n可能會有G2G的就是仲介加G2G的模式但我們在這裡發現如果勞動部都不準備而且國家不願意介入而且政府不願意而不是不能喔那在民意上的雙軌實際上運作下來會只剩下單軌那我跟你講說啊人家韓國開放了韓國引進了幾個國家的移工\n\n7\n00:02:32,230 --> 00:02:34,611\n我們全部臺灣引進幾個國家?臺灣是幾個國家的移工?我們現在四個國家嘛。四加一嘛。印度嘛,對不對?韓國幾個國家還沒開始呢?OK,我知道。那你知道韓國引進了移工的國家有多少數量嗎?\n\n8\n00:02:50,859 --> 00:03:18,155\n十七個!而我們現在只談一個印度要求你GtoG國對國的模式只要求你一個連一個都不願意好好的做不願意國家不願意扛起這個責任這個不是國家有沒有能力是政府無能啊所以在這裡我們很多的人都跟你陳情說包括都反映說我們只\n\n9\n00:03:19,756 --> 00:03:46,445\n接看韓國模式他能夠運作的起來而且都是國對國的引進而且數量這麼多關鍵是他們有個space的系統你知道吧space的系統他們space的系統現在是不是AI時代大數據時代人工智慧管理的時代保證是不是你們這種可以做的做不出來也不管你做\n\n10\n00:03:48,237 --> 00:03:55,019\n你要說台灣是AI大國整個資訊系統的政府整個醫化做得多好你知道嗎這個space系統把所有移工相關的部門串聯起來我們國家我們政府就是從來都不願意串聯起整個系統然後呢把不論是這個引進的這個許可併顧的許可\n\n11\n00:04:18,207 --> 00:04:33,111\n還有包括入出國業務的這個許可通通整合在一起而且要公開透明上網僱主可以上去看移工也可以上去看大家都可以使用這個系統包括簽證等等這樣整合在一起很困難嗎?這個系統會困難嗎?寶定你回答看看韓國的space系統對台灣來講困不困難?\n\n12\n00:04:43,214 --> 00:04:54,061\n委員我現在就是在請我現在正在進行一個勞政友善化的計劃我就是要求勞防署現在開始檢討把所有的系統都整合在一起然後減少部署你們現在什麼系統對不對串聯起各部會的系統\n\n13\n00:04:58,004 --> 00:04:59,125\n蘇長,你有沒有辦法?蘇長你來講快一點。\n\n14\n00:05:18,558 --> 00:05:19,018\n韓國是從沒有經驗開始做的勒\n\n15\n00:05:35,511 --> 00:06:01,882\n從一開始開放移工就做這種系統做這種制度做這種管理而我們已經幾十年了我們需要什麼哪裡需要整合怎麼整合整個界面要怎麼管理我們還會不知道嗎是沒有能力而不是喔不是是沒有心不是沒有能力啊政府退位不願意管那你們講部長你剛才講說仲介能力很好署長我現在講space系統年底以前做不做得出來\n\n16\n00:06:03,459 --> 00:06:05,941\n我們來努力好第二個你說台灣的仲介服務很好能力很強你知道你們的仲介評鑑啊評鑑為合格的優良的仲介比例大概有多高嗎\n\n17\n00:06:23,191 --> 00:06:28,139\n你們去年11月發布的新聞稿A級的64.5%B級的30%所以94%的仲介你們都評定是合格的優良的仲介\n\n18\n00:06:38,855 --> 00:07:06,370\n你知道2016年我們修了一個就業服務法三年免促進一天仲介沒辦法在跨國收取不當的仲介費沒辦法再剝削這些移工他們轉而在台灣境內台灣境內直接要付買工費而且大家都知道買工費是一定要付大家都要付除非你那10%的職聘續聘\n\n19\n00:07:09,534 --> 00:07:12,575\n不然你知道賣工費的行情是多少錢嗎?一個議員要繼續在台灣續聘,要付多少賣工費?當然仲介一定有良誘,他一定有不好的決定。這不是良誘喔,這每間每個都有起訴的喔,賣工費每個都有的喔。\n\n20\n00:07:32,748 --> 00:07:57,174\n每個都有,每家仲介都違法在說買工費在台灣發生,要付多少錢?買工費在我們這邊是非法的本來就違法的啊,您取締一年,你們從以前到現在取締多少件?我問你非法的,現在七十幾萬每個人都續聘的時候都要付呢?你才裁罰幾件?\n\n21\n00:08:00,046 --> 00:08:02,147\n這代表什麼?你說能力很好、仲介服務很好,他們幹這種違法的勾當,你們評鑑的94%都是合格的、優良的。\n\n22\n00:08:14,226 --> 00:08:40,603\n而幹非法的事都還是A級的B級的委員我可以跟您報告我有1775家仲介連續兩年憑藉A級只有478家好啦這478家有沒有收買工費你敢保證絕對沒有收買工費嗎我告訴你我保證絕對有收買工費委員你可以跟我檢舉好嗎你不要講檢舉這種事情你不負責任你們政府不願意管\n\n23\n00:08:41,303 --> 00:08:46,409\n然後退位、放任、然後你叫立委跟你檢舉,現在沒有政府啊你。現在是什麼?政府這麼好做,叫立委來給你檢舉,我要你政府幹嘛?\n\n24\n00:08:53,084 --> 00:09:16,957\n這樣子當政府這麼簡單啊那我再請教你現在RBA的移工零付費原則雇主自己去負擔買公費很多大企業都這樣子啦否則整個RBA整個國際形象就壞掉了那你這個要先行人家你們開會5月2號開會也有人也有委員在問啊\n\n25\n00:09:18,098 --> 00:09:30,917\n你們要不要做這個RBA的移工零付費原則?要不要從這裡開始示範起?幾千人示範零付費原則?有沒有可能示範?\n\n26\n00:09:33,955 --> 00:09:49,686\n國對國引進也不可能一個國家一個印度事辦一千人的規模你沒有辦法做出來space系統要跟你們對如果這樣也說零付費都顧著自己去負擔你也要標示一個人你有沒有辦法啊我們都一直在講說這時候只能盡量努力啦高額的抵債勞務、人口販運、強迫勞動\n\n27\n00:10:00,307 --> 00:10:20,583\n所以今天在這裡是政府過去一直都退位不願意管然後就全部交給仲介然後在這裡今天不會要求你這個示範計畫國對國不管你是雙軌還是單軌到最後如果沒有運轉出一個模式來就會變成仲介一軌\n\n28\n00:10:21,724 --> 00:10:31,552\n所以你的國對國模式你的space很重要然後你的G2G你要怎麼運作也很重要人家韓國成立了一個韓國產業人力公團你知道的?對不對?公團要做什麼這個是行政法人吧?\n\n29\n00:10:40,920 --> 00:11:01,701\n對,他是行政法人。行政法人代表國家公權力呢?他們扛起什麼責任?韓國的國家扛起了選工、負責選工、負起技能訓練、負起居留服務等。然後國家還幫僱主委託,可以受理僱主委託代向外籍勞工簽訂勞動契約。\n\n30\n00:11:04,023 --> 00:11:13,428\n這就是國家?我們的國家做什麼?我們的國家做什麼?委員我也很期待能這樣對,所以你要從這裡開始試驗但我要講說你從印度全立法院包括衛防委員會的委員到現在都沒有苛責你過去\n\n31\n00:11:20,831 --> 00:11:20,871\n主席\n\n32\n00:11:37,888 --> 00:11:46,061\n所以現在只是要求你這一千個移工的引進我們來找出一個新的模式我們把過去強迫勞動的高額抵債勞務的通通都給他改善掉國家扛起責任\n\n33\n00:11:53,308 --> 00:12:19,376\n不是只有仲介有責任。仲介引進來的很多人沒有專業訓練、沒有技能訓練、沒有服務訓練。很多雇主也不滿意啊。這個服務也不專業啊。可是人要韓國負責選工、技能訓練、居留服務。還可以幫你簽訂勞動契約。所以再加上他們space系統。我們還講說這才像是一個國家。日本。日本的模式他用什麼模式?日本的國家做了什麼?保定。\n\n34\n00:12:23,103 --> 00:12:43,131\n日本引進印度勞工他們跟NSDC引進這個執行也是採G2G的模式而且大家都知道日本也是一個公法人在處理日本是國家公法人在處理啊他們根本沒有在討論仲介費因為沒有這一種事情\n\n35\n00:12:44,056 --> 00:13:02,678\n而我現在看到你們的開會會議記錄包括我們的外交部都說外交部駐印度代表處說本處尊重國內單位意見倘若初期採取國家政府職聘的方式引進他們願意協助瞭解主責機構的窗口願意承擔起來\n\n36\n00:13:03,799 --> 00:13:32,658\n並依照勞動部的需求跟印方洽談為考量台印之間彼此能見度不足國內對印度的刻板印象嚴重所以他建議這是我講的是官方外交部願意扛起這個責任他說建議初期可以透過採取職聘方式引進優質印度移工讓台灣社會更加熟悉印度移工外交部說的\n\n37\n00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:48,951\n外交部下一段說:「未來再試市場需求研議採取多元引進方式以確保雇主跟勞工權益都受到保障。」外交部直接都建議\n\n38\n00:13:50,242 --> 00:14:08,739\n初期國對國引進外交部還有另外一點建議我念給你聽到印度方面執聘的機制除了NSTC以外還有一種是由印度政府指定所以並不是印度沒有國對國的模式都不是\n\n39\n00:14:09,795 --> 00:14:25,905\n所以這個問題我們看是只有政府要不要做有沒有要扛起責任就只是這種態度而已而不是不能也不是不能也沒有印度方面拒絕沒有這一種事所以在這裡我們真的是部長\n\n40\n00:14:30,939 --> 00:14:35,902\n今天在這裡大家對MOU簽了好看起來好像雙軌但是我自己個人很害怕最後變成單軌叫仲介跟以前一樣那就落入了有一些在野黨的前立委講的嘴巴講出來的這個是不是有很大的哪一種利益已經在那裡先布局了有人這樣說嘛但我覺得不一定是嘛\n\n41\n00:14:59,938 --> 00:15:06,505\n政府應該要採取破例案行動來證明國家願意扛起這個責任好謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5047\t33618\t主席,各位大家午安。是不是要請我們這個部長?好,請何部長。部長,聽了你一個早上的答詢,大概大家在關心的職聘的問題,你第一個觀點,你說印度沒有所謂的國對國的職聘的模式,你是這樣說嗎?他們確實是沒有這樣的東西。那日本、韓國是什麼模式?你回答我。日本跟韓國他們有職聘啊。\n34813\t50381\t日本韓國跟印度就是職聘模式你不要不要講說印度沒有G2G的模式有日本跟韓國就是然後你在今天一早委員問的時候你就說職聘要看國家有沒有能力是吧\n51499\t69255\t對阿,我們的就是要看我們自己因為我們是全新的經驗所以我們現在開始...不是看國家有沒有能力是看政府有沒有能力然後你們所值的理由要講說國內的仲介能力很強你回答立委的質詢你說我們的執聘要在國內執聘先行續聘這個大家都知道就不談我們不再談這一塊你說國內的仲介能力很強\n77822\t90525\t所以這就是我們一直在跟你說的仲介這一塊制度我們過去的四個國家都全部放給仲介然後仲介的這個問題在哪裡大家都知道人口販運裡面的強迫勞動高額的抵債勞務訓練不足國家退位專業不足所以照護的專業不足然後呢買工費、仲介費\n103949\t107771\t這就是高額的抵債勞務在這裡都涉及到人口販運和強迫勞動在這裡面而我們國家大家社會各個領域都在期待說開放印度的移工能不能有新的模式你們一直告訴我們說這一次要採雙軌制\n123618\t142874\t可能會有G2G的就是仲介加G2G的模式但我們在這裡發現如果勞動部都不準備而且國家不願意介入而且政府不願意而不是不能喔那在民意上的雙軌實際上運作下來會只剩下單軌那我跟你講說啊人家韓國開放了韓國引進了幾個國家的移工\n152230\t154611\t我們全部臺灣引進幾個國家?臺灣是幾個國家的移工?我們現在四個國家嘛。四加一嘛。印度嘛,對不對?韓國幾個國家還沒開始呢?OK,我知道。那你知道韓國引進了移工的國家有多少數量嗎?\n170859\t198155\t十七個!而我們現在只談一個印度要求你G to G國對國的模式只要求你一個連一個都不願意好好的做不願意國家不願意扛起這個責任這個不是國家有沒有能力是政府無能啊所以在這裡我們很多的人都跟你陳情說包括都反映說我們只\n199756\t226445\t接看韓國模式他能夠運作的起來而且都是國對國的引進而且數量這麼多關鍵是他們有個space的系統你知道吧space的系統他們space的系統現在是不是AI時代大數據時代人工智慧管理的時代保證是不是你們這種可以做的做不出來也不管你做\n228237\t235019\t你要說台灣是AI大國整個資訊系統的政府整個醫化做得多好你知道嗎這個space系統把所有移工相關的部門串聯起來我們國家我們政府就是從來都不願意串聯起整個系統然後呢把不論是這個引進的這個許可併顧的許可\n258207\t273111\t還有包括入出國業務的這個許可通通整合在一起而且要公開透明上網僱主可以上去看移工也可以上去看大家都可以使用這個系統包括簽證等等這樣整合在一起很困難嗎?這個系統會困難嗎?寶定你回答看看韓國的space系統對台灣來講困不困難?\n283214\t294061\t委員我現在就是在請我現在正在進行一個勞政友善化的計劃我就是要求勞防署現在開始檢討把所有的系統都整合在一起然後減少部署你們現在什麼系統對不對串聯起各部會的系統\n298004\t299125\t蘇長,你有沒有辦法?蘇長你來講快一點。\n318558\t319018\t韓國是從沒有經驗開始做的勒\n335511\t361882\t從一開始開放移工就做這種系統做這種制度做這種管理而我們已經幾十年了我們需要什麼哪裡需要整合怎麼整合整個界面要怎麼管理我們還會不知道嗎是沒有能力而不是喔不是是沒有心不是沒有能力啊政府退位不願意管那你們講部長你剛才講說仲介能力很好署長我現在講space系統年底以前做不做得出來\n363459\t365941\t我們來努力好第二個你說台灣的仲介服務很好能力很強你知道你們的仲介評鑑啊評鑑為合格的優良的仲介比例大概有多高嗎\n383191\t388139\t你們去年11月發布的新聞稿A級的64.5% B級的30%所以94%的仲介你們都評定是合格的優良的仲介\n398855\t426370\t你知道2016年我們修了一個就業服務法三年免促進一天仲介沒辦法在跨國收取不當的仲介費沒辦法再剝削這些移工他們轉而在台灣境內台灣境內直接要付買工費而且大家都知道買工費是一定要付大家都要付除非你那10%的職聘續聘\n429534\t432575\t不然你知道賣工費的行情是多少錢嗎?一個議員要繼續在台灣續聘,要付多少賣工費?當然仲介一定有良誘,他一定有不好的決定。這不是良誘喔,這每間每個都有起訴的喔,賣工費每個都有的喔。\n452748\t477174\t每個都有,每家仲介都違法在說買工費在台灣發生,要付多少錢?買工費在我們這邊是非法的本來就違法的啊,您取締一年,你們從以前到現在取締多少件?我問你非法的,現在七十幾萬每個人都續聘的時候都要付呢?你才裁罰幾件?\n480046\t482147\t這代表什麼?你說能力很好、仲介服務很好,他們幹這種違法的勾當,你們評鑑的94%都是合格的、優良的。\n494226\t520603\t而幹非法的事都還是A級的B級的委員我可以跟您報告我有1775家仲介連續兩年憑藉A級只有478家好啦這478家有沒有收買工費你敢保證絕對沒有收買工費嗎我告訴你我保證絕對有收買工費委員你可以跟我檢舉好嗎你不要講檢舉這種事情你不負責任你們政府不願意管\n521303\t526409\t然後退位、放任、然後你叫立委跟你檢舉,現在沒有政府啊你。現在是什麼?政府這麼好做,叫立委來給你檢舉,我要你政府幹嘛?\n533084\t556957\t這樣子當政府這麼簡單啊那我再請教你現在RBA的移工零付費原則雇主自己去負擔買公費很多大企業都這樣子啦否則整個RBA整個國際形象就壞掉了那你這個要先行人家你們開會5月2號開會也有人也有委員在問啊\n558098\t570917\t你們要不要做這個RBA的移工零付費原則?要不要從這裡開始示範起?幾千人示範零付費原則?有沒有可能示範?\n573955\t589686\t國對國引進也不可能一個國家一個印度事辦一千人的規模你沒有辦法做出來space系統要跟你們對如果這樣也說零付費都顧著自己去負擔你也要標示一個人你有沒有辦法啊我們都一直在講說這時候只能盡量努力啦高額的抵債勞務、人口販運、強迫勞動\n600307\t620583\t所以今天在這裡是政府過去一直都退位不願意管然後就全部交給仲介然後在這裡今天不會要求你這個示範計畫國對國不管你是雙軌還是單軌到最後如果沒有運轉出一個模式來就會變成仲介一軌\n621724\t631552\t所以你的國對國模式你的space很重要然後你的G2G你要怎麼運作也很重要人家韓國成立了一個韓國產業人力公團你知道的?對不對?公團要做什麼這個是行政法人吧?\n640920\t661701\t對,他是行政法人。行政法人代表國家公權力呢?他們扛起什麼責任?韓國的國家扛起了選工、負責選工、負起技能訓練、負起居留服務等。然後國家還幫僱主委託,可以受理僱主委託代向外籍勞工簽訂勞動契約。\n664023\t673428\t這就是國家?我們的國家做什麼?我們的國家做什麼?委員我也很期待能這樣對,所以你要從這裡開始試驗但我要講說你從印度全立法院包括衛防委員會的委員到現在都沒有苛責你過去\n680831\t680871\t主席\n697888\t706061\t所以現在只是要求你這一千個移工的引進我們來找出一個新的模式我們把過去強迫勞動的高額抵債勞務的通通都給他改善掉國家扛起責任\n713308\t739376\t不是只有仲介有責任。仲介引進來的很多人沒有專業訓練、沒有技能訓練、沒有服務訓練。很多雇主也不滿意啊。這個服務也不專業啊。可是人要韓國負責選工、技能訓練、居留服務。還可以幫你簽訂勞動契約。所以再加上他們space系統。我們還講說這才像是一個國家。日本。日本的模式他用什麼模式?日本的國家做了什麼?保定。\n743103\t763131\t日本引進印度勞工他們跟NSDC引進這個執行也是採G2G的模式而且大家都知道日本也是一個公法人在處理日本是國家公法人在處理啊他們根本沒有在討論仲介費因為沒有這一種事情\n764056\t782678\t而我現在看到你們的開會會議記錄包括我們的外交部都說外交部駐印度代表處說本處尊重國內單位意見倘若初期採取國家政府職聘的方式引進他們願意協助瞭解主責機構的窗口願意承擔起來\n783799\t812658\t並依照勞動部的需求跟印方洽談為考量台印之間彼此能見度不足國內對印度的刻板印象嚴重所以他建議這是我講的是官方外交部願意扛起這個責任他說建議初期可以透過採取職聘方式引進優質印度移工讓台灣社會更加熟悉印度移工外交部說的\n813679\t828951\t外交部下一段說:「未來再試市場需求研議採取多元引進方式以確保雇主跟勞工權益都受到保障。」外交部直接都建議\n830242\t848739\t初期國對國引進外交部還有另外一點建議我念給你聽到印度方面執聘的機制除了NSTC以外還有一種是由印度政府指定所以並不是印度沒有國對國的模式都不是\n849795\t865905\t所以這個問題我們看是只有政府要不要做有沒有要扛起責任就只是這種態度而已而不是不能也不是不能也沒有印度方面拒絕沒有這一種事所以在這裡我們真的是部長\n870939\t875902\t今天在這裡大家對MOU簽了好看起來好像雙軌但是我自己個人很害怕最後變成單軌叫仲介跟以前一樣那就落入了有一些在野黨的前立委講的嘴巴講出來的這個是不是有很大的哪一種利益已經在那裡先布局了有人這樣說嘛但我覺得不一定是嘛\n899938\t906505\t政府應該要採取破例案行動來證明國家願意扛起這個責任好 謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢\n","txt":"主席,各位大家午安。是不是要請我們這個部長?好,請何部長。部長,聽了你一個早上的答詢,大概大家在關心的職聘的問題,你第一個觀點,你說印度沒有所謂的國對國的職聘的模式,你是這樣說嗎?他們確實是沒有這樣的東西。那日本、韓國是什麼模式?你回答我。日本跟韓國他們有職聘啊。\n日本韓國跟印度就是職聘模式你不要不要講說印度沒有G2G的模式有日本跟韓國就是然後你在今天一早委員問的時候你就說職聘要看國家有沒有能力是吧\n對阿,我們的就是要看我們自己因為我們是全新的經驗所以我們現在開始...不是看國家有沒有能力是看政府有沒有能力然後你們所值的理由要講說國內的仲介能力很強你回答立委的質詢你說我們的執聘要在國內執聘先行續聘這個大家都知道就不談我們不再談這一塊你說國內的仲介能力很強\n所以這就是我們一直在跟你說的仲介這一塊制度我們過去的四個國家都全部放給仲介然後仲介的這個問題在哪裡大家都知道人口販運裡面的強迫勞動高額的抵債勞務訓練不足國家退位專業不足所以照護的專業不足然後呢買工費、仲介費\n這就是高額的抵債勞務在這裡都涉及到人口販運和強迫勞動在這裡面而我們國家大家社會各個領域都在期待說開放印度的移工能不能有新的模式你們一直告訴我們說這一次要採雙軌制\n可能會有G2G的就是仲介加G2G的模式但我們在這裡發現如果勞動部都不準備而且國家不願意介入而且政府不願意而不是不能喔那在民意上的雙軌實際上運作下來會只剩下單軌那我跟你講說啊人家韓國開放了韓國引進了幾個國家的移工\n我們全部臺灣引進幾個國家?臺灣是幾個國家的移工?我們現在四個國家嘛。四加一嘛。印度嘛,對不對?韓國幾個國家還沒開始呢?OK,我知道。那你知道韓國引進了移工的國家有多少數量嗎?\n十七個!而我們現在只談一個印度要求你G to G國對國的模式只要求你一個連一個都不願意好好的做不願意國家不願意扛起這個責任這個不是國家有沒有能力是政府無能啊所以在這裡我們很多的人都跟你陳情說包括都反映說我們只\n接看韓國模式他能夠運作的起來而且都是國對國的引進而且數量這麼多關鍵是他們有個space的系統你知道吧space的系統他們space的系統現在是不是AI時代大數據時代人工智慧管理的時代保證是不是你們這種可以做的做不出來也不管你做\n你要說台灣是AI大國整個資訊系統的政府整個醫化做得多好你知道嗎這個space系統把所有移工相關的部門串聯起來我們國家我們政府就是從來都不願意串聯起整個系統然後呢把不論是這個引進的這個許可併顧的許可\n還有包括入出國業務的這個許可通通整合在一起而且要公開透明上網僱主可以上去看移工也可以上去看大家都可以使用這個系統包括簽證等等這樣整合在一起很困難嗎?這個系統會困難嗎?寶定你回答看看韓國的space系統對台灣來講困不困難?\n委員我現在就是在請我現在正在進行一個勞政友善化的計劃我就是要求勞防署現在開始檢討把所有的系統都整合在一起然後減少部署你們現在什麼系統對不對串聯起各部會的系統\n蘇長,你有沒有辦法?蘇長你來講快一點。\n韓國是從沒有經驗開始做的勒\n從一開始開放移工就做這種系統做這種制度做這種管理而我們已經幾十年了我們需要什麼哪裡需要整合怎麼整合整個界面要怎麼管理我們還會不知道嗎是沒有能力而不是喔不是是沒有心不是沒有能力啊政府退位不願意管那你們講部長你剛才講說仲介能力很好署長我現在講space系統年底以前做不做得出來\n我們來努力好第二個你說台灣的仲介服務很好能力很強你知道你們的仲介評鑑啊評鑑為合格的優良的仲介比例大概有多高嗎\n你們去年11月發布的新聞稿A級的64.5% B級的30%所以94%的仲介你們都評定是合格的優良的仲介\n你知道2016年我們修了一個就業服務法三年免促進一天仲介沒辦法在跨國收取不當的仲介費沒辦法再剝削這些移工他們轉而在台灣境內台灣境內直接要付買工費而且大家都知道買工費是一定要付大家都要付除非你那10%的職聘續聘\n不然你知道賣工費的行情是多少錢嗎?一個議員要繼續在台灣續聘,要付多少賣工費?當然仲介一定有良誘,他一定有不好的決定。這不是良誘喔,這每間每個都有起訴的喔,賣工費每個都有的喔。\n每個都有,每家仲介都違法在說買工費在台灣發生,要付多少錢?買工費在我們這邊是非法的本來就違法的啊,您取締一年,你們從以前到現在取締多少件?我問你非法的,現在七十幾萬每個人都續聘的時候都要付呢?你才裁罰幾件?\n這代表什麼?你說能力很好、仲介服務很好,他們幹這種違法的勾當,你們評鑑的94%都是合格的、優良的。\n而幹非法的事都還是A級的B級的委員我可以跟您報告我有1775家仲介連續兩年憑藉A級只有478家好啦這478家有沒有收買工費你敢保證絕對沒有收買工費嗎我告訴你我保證絕對有收買工費委員你可以跟我檢舉好嗎你不要講檢舉這種事情你不負責任你們政府不願意管\n然後退位、放任、然後你叫立委跟你檢舉,現在沒有政府啊你。現在是什麼?政府這麼好做,叫立委來給你檢舉,我要你政府幹嘛?\n這樣子當政府這麼簡單啊那我再請教你現在RBA的移工零付費原則雇主自己去負擔買公費很多大企業都這樣子啦否則整個RBA整個國際形象就壞掉了那你這個要先行人家你們開會5月2號開會也有人也有委員在問啊\n你們要不要做這個RBA的移工零付費原則?要不要從這裡開始示範起?幾千人示範零付費原則?有沒有可能示範?\n國對國引進也不可能一個國家一個印度事辦一千人的規模你沒有辦法做出來space系統要跟你們對如果這樣也說零付費都顧著自己去負擔你也要標示一個人你有沒有辦法啊我們都一直在講說這時候只能盡量努力啦高額的抵債勞務、人口販運、強迫勞動\n所以今天在這裡是政府過去一直都退位不願意管然後就全部交給仲介然後在這裡今天不會要求你這個示範計畫國對國不管你是雙軌還是單軌到最後如果沒有運轉出一個模式來就會變成仲介一軌\n所以你的國對國模式你的space很重要然後你的G2G你要怎麼運作也很重要人家韓國成立了一個韓國產業人力公團你知道的?對不對?公團要做什麼這個是行政法人吧?\n對,他是行政法人。行政法人代表國家公權力呢?他們扛起什麼責任?韓國的國家扛起了選工、負責選工、負起技能訓練、負起居留服務等。然後國家還幫僱主委託,可以受理僱主委託代向外籍勞工簽訂勞動契約。\n這就是國家?我們的國家做什麼?我們的國家做什麼?委員我也很期待能這樣對,所以你要從這裡開始試驗但我要講說你從印度全立法院包括衛防委員會的委員到現在都沒有苛責你過去\n主席\n所以現在只是要求你這一千個移工的引進我們來找出一個新的模式我們把過去強迫勞動的高額抵債勞務的通通都給他改善掉國家扛起責任\n不是只有仲介有責任。仲介引進來的很多人沒有專業訓練、沒有技能訓練、沒有服務訓練。很多雇主也不滿意啊。這個服務也不專業啊。可是人要韓國負責選工、技能訓練、居留服務。還可以幫你簽訂勞動契約。所以再加上他們space系統。我們還講說這才像是一個國家。日本。日本的模式他用什麼模式?日本的國家做了什麼?保定。\n日本引進印度勞工他們跟NSDC引進這個執行也是採G2G的模式而且大家都知道日本也是一個公法人在處理日本是國家公法人在處理啊他們根本沒有在討論仲介費因為沒有這一種事情\n而我現在看到你們的開會會議記錄包括我們的外交部都說外交部駐印度代表處說本處尊重國內單位意見倘若初期採取國家政府職聘的方式引進他們願意協助瞭解主責機構的窗口願意承擔起來\n並依照勞動部的需求跟印方洽談為考量台印之間彼此能見度不足國內對印度的刻板印象嚴重所以他建議這是我講的是官方外交部願意扛起這個責任他說建議初期可以透過採取職聘方式引進優質印度移工讓台灣社會更加熟悉印度移工外交部說的\n外交部下一段說:「未來再試市場需求研議採取多元引進方式以確保雇主跟勞工權益都受到保障。」外交部直接都建議\n初期國對國引進外交部還有另外一點建議我念給你聽到印度方面執聘的機制除了NSTC以外還有一種是由印度政府指定所以並不是印度沒有國對國的模式都不是\n所以這個問題我們看是只有政府要不要做有沒有要扛起責任就只是這種態度而已而不是不能也不是不能也沒有印度方面拒絕沒有這一種事所以在這裡我們真的是部長\n今天在這裡大家對MOU簽了好看起來好像雙軌但是我自己個人很害怕最後變成單軌叫仲介跟以前一樣那就落入了有一些在野黨的前立委講的嘴巴講出來的這個是不是有很大的哪一種利益已經在那裡先布局了有人這樣說嘛但我覺得不一定是嘛\n政府應該要採取破例案行動來證明國家願意扛起這個責任好 謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.047 --> 00:33.618\n主席,各位大家午安。是不是要請我們這個部長?好,請何部長。部長,聽了你一個早上的答詢,大概大家在關心的職聘的問題,你第一個觀點,你說印度沒有所謂的國對國的職聘的模式,你是這樣說嗎?他們確實是沒有這樣的東西。那日本、韓國是什麼模式?你回答我。日本跟韓國他們有職聘啊。\n\n00:34.813 --> 00:50.381\n日本韓國跟印度就是職聘模式你不要不要講說印度沒有G2G的模式有日本跟韓國就是然後你在今天一早委員問的時候你就說職聘要看國家有沒有能力是吧\n\n00:51.499 --> 01:09.255\n對阿,我們的就是要看我們自己因為我們是全新的經驗所以我們現在開始...不是看國家有沒有能力是看政府有沒有能力然後你們所值的理由要講說國內的仲介能力很強你回答立委的質詢你說我們的執聘要在國內執聘先行續聘這個大家都知道就不談我們不再談這一塊你說國內的仲介能力很強\n\n01:17.822 --> 01:30.525\n所以這就是我們一直在跟你說的仲介這一塊制度我們過去的四個國家都全部放給仲介然後仲介的這個問題在哪裡大家都知道人口販運裡面的強迫勞動高額的抵債勞務訓練不足國家退位專業不足所以照護的專業不足然後呢買工費、仲介費\n\n01:43.949 --> 01:47.771\n這就是高額的抵債勞務在這裡都涉及到人口販運和強迫勞動在這裡面而我們國家大家社會各個領域都在期待說開放印度的移工能不能有新的模式你們一直告訴我們說這一次要採雙軌制\n\n02:03.618 --> 02:22.874\n可能會有G2G的就是仲介加G2G的模式但我們在這裡發現如果勞動部都不準備而且國家不願意介入而且政府不願意而不是不能喔那在民意上的雙軌實際上運作下來會只剩下單軌那我跟你講說啊人家韓國開放了韓國引進了幾個國家的移工\n\n02:32.230 --> 02:34.611\n我們全部臺灣引進幾個國家?臺灣是幾個國家的移工?我們現在四個國家嘛。四加一嘛。印度嘛,對不對?韓國幾個國家還沒開始呢?OK,我知道。那你知道韓國引進了移工的國家有多少數量嗎?\n\n02:50.859 --> 03:18.155\n十七個!而我們現在只談一個印度要求你GtoG國對國的模式只要求你一個連一個都不願意好好的做不願意國家不願意扛起這個責任這個不是國家有沒有能力是政府無能啊所以在這裡我們很多的人都跟你陳情說包括都反映說我們只\n\n03:19.756 --> 03:46.445\n接看韓國模式他能夠運作的起來而且都是國對國的引進而且數量這麼多關鍵是他們有個space的系統你知道吧space的系統他們space的系統現在是不是AI時代大數據時代人工智慧管理的時代保證是不是你們這種可以做的做不出來也不管你做\n\n03:48.237 --> 03:55.019\n你要說台灣是AI大國整個資訊系統的政府整個醫化做得多好你知道嗎這個space系統把所有移工相關的部門串聯起來我們國家我們政府就是從來都不願意串聯起整個系統然後呢把不論是這個引進的這個許可併顧的許可\n\n04:18.207 --> 04:33.111\n還有包括入出國業務的這個許可通通整合在一起而且要公開透明上網僱主可以上去看移工也可以上去看大家都可以使用這個系統包括簽證等等這樣整合在一起很困難嗎?這個系統會困難嗎?寶定你回答看看韓國的space系統對台灣來講困不困難?\n\n04:43.214 --> 04:54.061\n委員我現在就是在請我現在正在進行一個勞政友善化的計劃我就是要求勞防署現在開始檢討把所有的系統都整合在一起然後減少部署你們現在什麼系統對不對串聯起各部會的系統\n\n04:58.004 --> 04:59.125\n蘇長,你有沒有辦法?蘇長你來講快一點。\n\n05:18.558 --> 05:19.018\n韓國是從沒有經驗開始做的勒\n\n05:35.511 --> 06:01.882\n從一開始開放移工就做這種系統做這種制度做這種管理而我們已經幾十年了我們需要什麼哪裡需要整合怎麼整合整個界面要怎麼管理我們還會不知道嗎是沒有能力而不是喔不是是沒有心不是沒有能力啊政府退位不願意管那你們講部長你剛才講說仲介能力很好署長我現在講space系統年底以前做不做得出來\n\n06:03.459 --> 06:05.941\n我們來努力好第二個你說台灣的仲介服務很好能力很強你知道你們的仲介評鑑啊評鑑為合格的優良的仲介比例大概有多高嗎\n\n06:23.191 --> 06:28.139\n你們去年11月發布的新聞稿A級的64.5%B級的30%所以94%的仲介你們都評定是合格的優良的仲介\n\n06:38.855 --> 07:06.370\n你知道2016年我們修了一個就業服務法三年免促進一天仲介沒辦法在跨國收取不當的仲介費沒辦法再剝削這些移工他們轉而在台灣境內台灣境內直接要付買工費而且大家都知道買工費是一定要付大家都要付除非你那10%的職聘續聘\n\n07:09.534 --> 07:12.575\n不然你知道賣工費的行情是多少錢嗎?一個議員要繼續在台灣續聘,要付多少賣工費?當然仲介一定有良誘,他一定有不好的決定。這不是良誘喔,這每間每個都有起訴的喔,賣工費每個都有的喔。\n\n07:32.748 --> 07:57.174\n每個都有,每家仲介都違法在說買工費在台灣發生,要付多少錢?買工費在我們這邊是非法的本來就違法的啊,您取締一年,你們從以前到現在取締多少件?我問你非法的,現在七十幾萬每個人都續聘的時候都要付呢?你才裁罰幾件?\n\n08:00.046 --> 08:02.147\n這代表什麼?你說能力很好、仲介服務很好,他們幹這種違法的勾當,你們評鑑的94%都是合格的、優良的。\n\n08:14.226 --> 08:40.603\n而幹非法的事都還是A級的B級的委員我可以跟您報告我有1775家仲介連續兩年憑藉A級只有478家好啦這478家有沒有收買工費你敢保證絕對沒有收買工費嗎我告訴你我保證絕對有收買工費委員你可以跟我檢舉好嗎你不要講檢舉這種事情你不負責任你們政府不願意管\n\n08:41.303 --> 08:46.409\n然後退位、放任、然後你叫立委跟你檢舉,現在沒有政府啊你。現在是什麼?政府這麼好做,叫立委來給你檢舉,我要你政府幹嘛?\n\n08:53.084 --> 09:16.957\n這樣子當政府這麼簡單啊那我再請教你現在RBA的移工零付費原則雇主自己去負擔買公費很多大企業都這樣子啦否則整個RBA整個國際形象就壞掉了那你這個要先行人家你們開會5月2號開會也有人也有委員在問啊\n\n09:18.098 --> 09:30.917\n你們要不要做這個RBA的移工零付費原則?要不要從這裡開始示範起?幾千人示範零付費原則?有沒有可能示範?\n\n09:33.955 --> 09:49.686\n國對國引進也不可能一個國家一個印度事辦一千人的規模你沒有辦法做出來space系統要跟你們對如果這樣也說零付費都顧著自己去負擔你也要標示一個人你有沒有辦法啊我們都一直在講說這時候只能盡量努力啦高額的抵債勞務、人口販運、強迫勞動\n\n10:00.307 --> 10:20.583\n所以今天在這裡是政府過去一直都退位不願意管然後就全部交給仲介然後在這裡今天不會要求你這個示範計畫國對國不管你是雙軌還是單軌到最後如果沒有運轉出一個模式來就會變成仲介一軌\n\n10:21.724 --> 10:31.552\n所以你的國對國模式你的space很重要然後你的G2G你要怎麼運作也很重要人家韓國成立了一個韓國產業人力公團你知道的?對不對?公團要做什麼這個是行政法人吧?\n\n10:40.920 --> 11:01.701\n對,他是行政法人。行政法人代表國家公權力呢?他們扛起什麼責任?韓國的國家扛起了選工、負責選工、負起技能訓練、負起居留服務等。然後國家還幫僱主委託,可以受理僱主委託代向外籍勞工簽訂勞動契約。\n\n11:04.023 --> 11:13.428\n這就是國家?我們的國家做什麼?我們的國家做什麼?委員我也很期待能這樣對,所以你要從這裡開始試驗但我要講說你從印度全立法院包括衛防委員會的委員到現在都沒有苛責你過去\n\n11:20.831 --> 11:20.871\n主席\n\n11:37.888 --> 11:46.061\n所以現在只是要求你這一千個移工的引進我們來找出一個新的模式我們把過去強迫勞動的高額抵債勞務的通通都給他改善掉國家扛起責任\n\n11:53.308 --> 12:19.376\n不是只有仲介有責任。仲介引進來的很多人沒有專業訓練、沒有技能訓練、沒有服務訓練。很多雇主也不滿意啊。這個服務也不專業啊。可是人要韓國負責選工、技能訓練、居留服務。還可以幫你簽訂勞動契約。所以再加上他們space系統。我們還講說這才像是一個國家。日本。日本的模式他用什麼模式?日本的國家做了什麼?保定。\n\n12:23.103 --> 12:43.131\n日本引進印度勞工他們跟NSDC引進這個執行也是採G2G的模式而且大家都知道日本也是一個公法人在處理日本是國家公法人在處理啊他們根本沒有在討論仲介費因為沒有這一種事情\n\n12:44.056 --> 13:02.678\n而我現在看到你們的開會會議記錄包括我們的外交部都說外交部駐印度代表處說本處尊重國內單位意見倘若初期採取國家政府職聘的方式引進他們願意協助瞭解主責機構的窗口願意承擔起來\n\n13:03.799 --> 13:32.658\n並依照勞動部的需求跟印方洽談為考量台印之間彼此能見度不足國內對印度的刻板印象嚴重所以他建議這是我講的是官方外交部願意扛起這個責任他說建議初期可以透過採取職聘方式引進優質印度移工讓台灣社會更加熟悉印度移工外交部說的\n\n13:33.679 --> 13:48.951\n外交部下一段說:「未來再試市場需求研議採取多元引進方式以確保雇主跟勞工權益都受到保障。」外交部直接都建議\n\n13:50.242 --> 14:08.739\n初期國對國引進外交部還有另外一點建議我念給你聽到印度方面執聘的機制除了NSTC以外還有一種是由印度政府指定所以並不是印度沒有國對國的模式都不是\n\n14:09.795 --> 14:25.905\n所以這個問題我們看是只有政府要不要做有沒有要扛起責任就只是這種態度而已而不是不能也不是不能也沒有印度方面拒絕沒有這一種事所以在這裡我們真的是部長\n\n14:30.939 --> 14:35.902\n今天在這裡大家對MOU簽了好看起來好像雙軌但是我自己個人很害怕最後變成單軌叫仲介跟以前一樣那就落入了有一些在野黨的前立委講的嘴巴講出來的這個是不是有很大的哪一種利益已經在那裡先布局了有人這樣說嘛但我覺得不一定是嘛\n\n14:59.938 --> 15:06.505\n政府應該要採取破例案行動來證明國家願意扛起這個責任好謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.047,"end":33.618,"text":"主席,各位大家午安。是不是要請我們這個部長?好,請何部長。部長,聽了你一個早上的答詢,大概大家在關心的職聘的問題,你第一個觀點,你說印度沒有所謂的國對國的職聘的模式,你是這樣說嗎?他們確實是沒有這樣的東西。那日本、韓國是什麼模式?你回答我。日本跟韓國他們有職聘啊。"},{"start":34.813,"end":50.381,"text":"日本韓國跟印度就是職聘模式你不要不要講說印度沒有G2G的模式有日本跟韓國就是然後你在今天一早委員問的時候你就說職聘要看國家有沒有能力是吧"},{"start":51.499,"end":69.255,"text":"對阿,我們的就是要看我們自己因為我們是全新的經驗所以我們現在開始...不是看國家有沒有能力是看政府有沒有能力然後你們所值的理由要講說國內的仲介能力很強你回答立委的質詢你說我們的執聘要在國內執聘先行續聘這個大家都知道就不談我們不再談這一塊你說國內的仲介能力很強"},{"start":77.822,"end":90.525,"text":"所以這就是我們一直在跟你說的仲介這一塊制度我們過去的四個國家都全部放給仲介然後仲介的這個問題在哪裡大家都知道人口販運裡面的強迫勞動高額的抵債勞務訓練不足國家退位專業不足所以照護的專業不足然後呢買工費、仲介費"},{"start":103.949,"end":107.771,"text":"這就是高額的抵債勞務在這裡都涉及到人口販運和強迫勞動在這裡面而我們國家大家社會各個領域都在期待說開放印度的移工能不能有新的模式你們一直告訴我們說這一次要採雙軌制"},{"start":123.618,"end":142.874,"text":"可能會有G2G的就是仲介加G2G的模式但我們在這裡發現如果勞動部都不準備而且國家不願意介入而且政府不願意而不是不能喔那在民意上的雙軌實際上運作下來會只剩下單軌那我跟你講說啊人家韓國開放了韓國引進了幾個國家的移工"},{"start":152.23,"end":154.611,"text":"我們全部臺灣引進幾個國家?臺灣是幾個國家的移工?我們現在四個國家嘛。四加一嘛。印度嘛,對不對?韓國幾個國家還沒開始呢?OK,我知道。那你知道韓國引進了移工的國家有多少數量嗎?"},{"start":170.859,"end":198.155,"text":"十七個!而我們現在只談一個印度要求你G to G國對國的模式只要求你一個連一個都不願意好好的做不願意國家不願意扛起這個責任這個不是國家有沒有能力是政府無能啊所以在這裡我們很多的人都跟你陳情說包括都反映說我們只"},{"start":199.756,"end":226.445,"text":"接看韓國模式他能夠運作的起來而且都是國對國的引進而且數量這麼多關鍵是他們有個space的系統你知道吧space的系統他們space的系統現在是不是AI時代大數據時代人工智慧管理的時代保證是不是你們這種可以做的做不出來也不管你做"},{"start":228.237,"end":235.019,"text":"你要說台灣是AI大國整個資訊系統的政府整個醫化做得多好你知道嗎這個space系統把所有移工相關的部門串聯起來我們國家我們政府就是從來都不願意串聯起整個系統然後呢把不論是這個引進的這個許可併顧的許可"},{"start":258.207,"end":273.111,"text":"還有包括入出國業務的這個許可通通整合在一起而且要公開透明上網僱主可以上去看移工也可以上去看大家都可以使用這個系統包括簽證等等這樣整合在一起很困難嗎?這個系統會困難嗎?寶定你回答看看韓國的space系統對台灣來講困不困難?"},{"start":283.214,"end":294.061,"text":"委員我現在就是在請我現在正在進行一個勞政友善化的計劃我就是要求勞防署現在開始檢討把所有的系統都整合在一起然後減少部署你們現在什麼系統對不對串聯起各部會的系統"},{"start":298.004,"end":299.125,"text":"蘇長,你有沒有辦法?蘇長你來講快一點。"},{"start":318.558,"end":319.018,"text":"韓國是從沒有經驗開始做的勒"},{"start":335.511,"end":361.882,"text":"從一開始開放移工就做這種系統做這種制度做這種管理而我們已經幾十年了我們需要什麼哪裡需要整合怎麼整合整個界面要怎麼管理我們還會不知道嗎是沒有能力而不是喔不是是沒有心不是沒有能力啊政府退位不願意管那你們講部長你剛才講說仲介能力很好署長我現在講space系統年底以前做不做得出來"},{"start":363.459,"end":365.941,"text":"我們來努力好第二個你說台灣的仲介服務很好能力很強你知道你們的仲介評鑑啊評鑑為合格的優良的仲介比例大概有多高嗎"},{"start":383.191,"end":388.139,"text":"你們去年11月發布的新聞稿A級的64.5% B級的30%所以94%的仲介你們都評定是合格的優良的仲介"},{"start":398.855,"end":426.37,"text":"你知道2016年我們修了一個就業服務法三年免促進一天仲介沒辦法在跨國收取不當的仲介費沒辦法再剝削這些移工他們轉而在台灣境內台灣境內直接要付買工費而且大家都知道買工費是一定要付大家都要付除非你那10%的職聘續聘"},{"start":429.534,"end":432.575,"text":"不然你知道賣工費的行情是多少錢嗎?一個議員要繼續在台灣續聘,要付多少賣工費?當然仲介一定有良誘,他一定有不好的決定。這不是良誘喔,這每間每個都有起訴的喔,賣工費每個都有的喔。"},{"start":452.748,"end":477.174,"text":"每個都有,每家仲介都違法在說買工費在台灣發生,要付多少錢?買工費在我們這邊是非法的本來就違法的啊,您取締一年,你們從以前到現在取締多少件?我問你非法的,現在七十幾萬每個人都續聘的時候都要付呢?你才裁罰幾件?"},{"start":480.046,"end":482.147,"text":"這代表什麼?你說能力很好、仲介服務很好,他們幹這種違法的勾當,你們評鑑的94%都是合格的、優良的。"},{"start":494.226,"end":520.603,"text":"而幹非法的事都還是A級的B級的委員我可以跟您報告我有1775家仲介連續兩年憑藉A級只有478家好啦這478家有沒有收買工費你敢保證絕對沒有收買工費嗎我告訴你我保證絕對有收買工費委員你可以跟我檢舉好嗎你不要講檢舉這種事情你不負責任你們政府不願意管"},{"start":521.303,"end":526.409,"text":"然後退位、放任、然後你叫立委跟你檢舉,現在沒有政府啊你。現在是什麼?政府這麼好做,叫立委來給你檢舉,我要你政府幹嘛?"},{"start":533.084,"end":556.957,"text":"這樣子當政府這麼簡單啊那我再請教你現在RBA的移工零付費原則雇主自己去負擔買公費很多大企業都這樣子啦否則整個RBA整個國際形象就壞掉了那你這個要先行人家你們開會5月2號開會也有人也有委員在問啊"},{"start":558.098,"end":570.917,"text":"你們要不要做這個RBA的移工零付費原則?要不要從這裡開始示範起?幾千人示範零付費原則?有沒有可能示範?"},{"start":573.955,"end":589.686,"text":"國對國引進也不可能一個國家一個印度事辦一千人的規模你沒有辦法做出來space系統要跟你們對如果這樣也說零付費都顧著自己去負擔你也要標示一個人你有沒有辦法啊我們都一直在講說這時候只能盡量努力啦高額的抵債勞務、人口販運、強迫勞動"},{"start":600.307,"end":620.583,"text":"所以今天在這裡是政府過去一直都退位不願意管然後就全部交給仲介然後在這裡今天不會要求你這個示範計畫國對國不管你是雙軌還是單軌到最後如果沒有運轉出一個模式來就會變成仲介一軌"},{"start":621.724,"end":631.552,"text":"所以你的國對國模式你的space很重要然後你的G2G你要怎麼運作也很重要人家韓國成立了一個韓國產業人力公團你知道的?對不對?公團要做什麼這個是行政法人吧?"},{"start":640.92,"end":661.701,"text":"對,他是行政法人。行政法人代表國家公權力呢?他們扛起什麼責任?韓國的國家扛起了選工、負責選工、負起技能訓練、負起居留服務等。然後國家還幫僱主委託,可以受理僱主委託代向外籍勞工簽訂勞動契約。"},{"start":664.023,"end":673.428,"text":"這就是國家?我們的國家做什麼?我們的國家做什麼?委員我也很期待能這樣對,所以你要從這裡開始試驗但我要講說你從印度全立法院包括衛防委員會的委員到現在都沒有苛責你過去"},{"start":680.831,"end":680.871,"text":"主席"},{"start":697.888,"end":706.061,"text":"所以現在只是要求你這一千個移工的引進我們來找出一個新的模式我們把過去強迫勞動的高額抵債勞務的通通都給他改善掉國家扛起責任"},{"start":713.308,"end":739.376,"text":"不是只有仲介有責任。仲介引進來的很多人沒有專業訓練、沒有技能訓練、沒有服務訓練。很多雇主也不滿意啊。這個服務也不專業啊。可是人要韓國負責選工、技能訓練、居留服務。還可以幫你簽訂勞動契約。所以再加上他們space系統。我們還講說這才像是一個國家。日本。日本的模式他用什麼模式?日本的國家做了什麼?保定。"},{"start":743.103,"end":763.131,"text":"日本引進印度勞工他們跟NSDC引進這個執行也是採G2G的模式而且大家都知道日本也是一個公法人在處理日本是國家公法人在處理啊他們根本沒有在討論仲介費因為沒有這一種事情"},{"start":764.056,"end":782.678,"text":"而我現在看到你們的開會會議記錄包括我們的外交部都說外交部駐印度代表處說本處尊重國內單位意見倘若初期採取國家政府職聘的方式引進他們願意協助瞭解主責機構的窗口願意承擔起來"},{"start":783.799,"end":812.658,"text":"並依照勞動部的需求跟印方洽談為考量台印之間彼此能見度不足國內對印度的刻板印象嚴重所以他建議這是我講的是官方外交部願意扛起這個責任他說建議初期可以透過採取職聘方式引進優質印度移工讓台灣社會更加熟悉印度移工外交部說的"},{"start":813.679,"end":828.951,"text":"外交部下一段說:「未來再試市場需求研議採取多元引進方式以確保雇主跟勞工權益都受到保障。」外交部直接都建議"},{"start":830.242,"end":848.739,"text":"初期國對國引進外交部還有另外一點建議我念給你聽到印度方面執聘的機制除了NSTC以外還有一種是由印度政府指定所以並不是印度沒有國對國的模式都不是"},{"start":849.795,"end":865.905,"text":"所以這個問題我們看是只有政府要不要做有沒有要扛起責任就只是這種態度而已而不是不能也不是不能也沒有印度方面拒絕沒有這一種事所以在這裡我們真的是部長"},{"start":870.939,"end":875.902,"text":"今天在這裡大家對MOU簽了好看起來好像雙軌但是我自己個人很害怕最後變成單軌叫仲介跟以前一樣那就落入了有一些在野黨的前立委講的嘴巴講出來的這個是不是有很大的哪一種利益已經在那裡先布局了有人這樣說嘛但我覺得不一定是嘛"},{"start":899.938,"end":906.505,"text":"政府應該要採取破例案行動來證明國家願意扛起這個責任好 謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢"}]}}}}