{"id":154347,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154347","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c5894d97ffce518ab4b539dbd63c1cc91b8981cfbc017771ba3b2363ea2ed9ac65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:03:43 - 10:13:55","影片長度":"00:10:12","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:03:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:13:55+08:00","duration":612,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":239,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時3分）謝謝主席，有請林部長，歐洲司司長如果稍後需要的話，可以協助部長回應。"],["主席：請部長還有司長。"],["林委員楚茵：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：我們今天的題目其實就是如何運用國際友我組織來讓我國加入聯合國，所以我想承接剛剛沈伯洋委員的說法，中國懲治臺獨的規定當中很明確的講，推動臺灣加入僅限主權國家參加的國際組織或進行官方的活動，這都會被列為臺獨啊！所以以我們今天的題目來講，部長，您就是臺獨分子了，你怕嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這是委員會排的，所以委員會應該優先。"],["林委員楚茵：是，所以全中華民國國民都是臺獨分子啊！我必須講中華民國就是一個國家，如果你要去延伸中國的定義的話，當然我們的定義我們自己作主，沒錯，但是他現在就是真的包山包海了。我們要知道，中華民國的國民一出生，接下來就有機會就會拿到身分證，對不對？所以這個部分部長你怎麼來看？我延續的來講，在推動國際組織的這個部分，現在第一線的外館人員強調他是中華民國的外交官的時候會害怕嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：外交官不會害怕，我們就是捍衛國家主權跟人民的權利。"],["林委員楚茵：我覺得這個非常重要，因為對於中國的恫嚇，他其實就是先說先贏，但是在先說先贏之後，我們也瞭解到，在國際現實的狀況底下，除了大概統促黨、新黨這種認為中華民國等於中華人民共和國一部分的政治立場，不然的話，我們身為中華民國的國民，不論是從昨天國防部的國軍弟兄保衛中華民國、保護我們自己的國家，包括第一線的外交人員，但是我們看到現在的國際現實是，我特別列出來現在有53個國家跟中國簽有引渡的條款，包括香港，言下之意就是，現在送到香港也等於送到中國，我特別列出來的53國當中，像韓國、泰國、菲律賓、越南、新加坡、馬來西亞，甚至於法國、英國、德國、義大利、捷克，為什麼我會特別標紅點的原因是，根據我的瞭解，今天大概就是學校、尤其是中小學生最後一天上課，接下來馬上進入7月，就是旅遊的高峰季了，當中國是用這種缺席審判的方式都可以來進行程序時，我們拿著中華民國的護照出國，那麼中國的懲治新規定外館要如何來因應？會不會有剛剛我們所講的，它隨便安你一個罪名，就把你先用所謂缺席審判，然後就把你的人先押走，甚至把你引渡到中國，你們現在有進行這樣的思考，或者是跟國安單位還是相關單位來進行SOP的演練，或者是開會討論嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有，已經有開過國安高層的會議，也責成國安會跟相關部會，包括外交部來做具體的因應，進一步能夠有一個整體的因應作法，特別對外交部來講，我們對外館，因為這涉及到跟當地國家的交涉，怎麼去預防，或萬一發生的時候去妥善的因應，我們也訓令外館，也要注意最近因為中共公布了懲治臺獨的相關意見之後，可能的輿情反映跟我們的溝通，還有後續的因應。"],["林委員楚茵：因為對於很多的國人來講，今天一個最新的民調是有七成以上的民眾認為自己是臺灣人，那麼對於臺灣民眾來講，認為自己是中華民國的國民這個更是畫上等號，是毋庸置疑的。比如說我現在舉一個例子，昨天我們的蕭副總統也出席了在臺灣舉辦的文化奧運的記者會，我們有超過22個文化表演團會前往巴黎，另外我們臺灣代表隊其實現在也已經啟程出發了，也就是說，7月20號開始，我們會有許多包括參加奧運或者是文化表演團，現在人就在歐洲，這些有引渡條款的國家當中就包括了法國、英國、德國、義大利跟捷克，這些歐陸的國家是連在一起的，有些人他是為了看奧運而去歐洲，有些人當然就是我們的國家代表隊，會參加奧運或者是出席表演，現在人就在歐洲，那麼突如其來像這樣一個新規範跟新規定，對於這些代表隊或者是前往歐洲的人民，我想問一下歐洲司做了哪些準備？"],["黃司長鈞耀：報告委員，對於如果萬一有發生什麼緊急應變，我們已經有擬定緊急應變計畫，同時我們也請外館來進行演練，有關於新生出來的這個22條的問題，我想依據國際引渡的基本原則，他也必須要兼顧人權，尤其您剛剛所提到的這些國家，基本上都是民主國家。"],["林委員楚茵：好，但是如果就如同沈伯洋委員剛剛所說的，它第一個罪名絕對不會是安你一個臺獨分裂分子，它可以用其他的詐騙或是其他罪犯的名義，包括過去我曾經在這裡質詢過國安局的局長，它會檢查你的手機，認為你的手機當中有他們認為不符合規定的，像這樣的狀況的時候，當然那是在中國會發生，但是在歐洲他用其他的方式的時候，這個部分你們有沒有提醒國人必須要注意，包括提醒現在要前往歐洲的民眾、國人要瞭解？"],["黃司長鈞耀：我們目前也會加強跟我們理念相近的夥伴國家溝通，尤其是在引渡的事情上面，我想他們也都會依據他們個別的國內法，他們是基於他們的法治跟民主理念，我們會特別提醒，在這方面他們也要特別的謹慎，尤其是涉及中國問題的時候。"],["林委員楚茵：好，最後一個要請教部長的問題就是有關於現在駐美代表俞大㵢所引發的這些爭議，對於部內來講，現在是不是已經調查清楚了？我想應該是分成兩個部分，第一個當然就是有關於公款的使用，針對公款的使用，我認為外交人員在國外代表的就是我們的國家，就是中華民國，不到奢華，但是我認為也不需要裝窮，尤其是臺灣can help，臺灣是可以協助各個國家的，所以在公款的使用上面我們明明白白會有規矩、會有規定，有必要的該花則花，這個部分我想外交部應該可以給一個比較明確的答案。至於還有其他，包括館長，尤其是俞大㵢，他在管理上面有沒有出問題，這個部分現在外交部有查清楚了嗎？有答案了嗎？因為現在國民黨要求他兩個禮拜之內回來，但是我們要知道，外交工作，尤其是剛剛我們提到的中國設定的了22條新的規定，這是會影響到現在我們對於全球、尤其不論是國人又或者是對外說明的一個非常重要的時間點，華府是一個非常重要的地方，所以部長，這兩個問題外交部查清楚了嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：採購的部分都是依法、依程序的相關規範辦理，至於說個別的項目，外界有一些不同的意見，包括幾個項目，像床墊、沙發等等，我覺得是要把它說清楚，為什麼是這個採購，但總的價格並不是像外面講的這麼大──八百萬，我們經過釐清之後，大概是兩百多萬，就是整個上半年我們美處採購的財產。"],["林委員楚茵：這有超出預算嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：他都是經過我們秘書處還有會計單位同意核可，所以程序上是沒有問題，至於說認定上，當然就是把它解釋清楚，立法委員也有要這個資料，我們也有給，當然有些說為什麼用密？因為涉及到外館判斷這些項目可能會涉及到一些機敏性，但是內容的部分都可以讓委員知道。至於說管理上，確實在第一線打仗壓力很大，同仁特別辛苦，我們一定要能夠相互的扶持，因為我們要一致對外，至於內部的管理該檢討、改革，都應該不斷地來精進。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席想要講的是，不要讓第一線──不論是基層或者是代表國家的外交官，感覺他們的努力好像沒有受到重視，不論是基層或者是代表駐館的外交官，其實都是同樣為外交來做努力，這個部分還是請部長要注意。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"154347","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154347","tool":"pyannote","id":"154347-pyannote"},"job_id":"DP3HBM4BHJ70rV0z","queued_at":"2024-06-27 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{\"word\": \"德\", \"start\": 289.441, \"end\": 290.161, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 290.161, \"end\": 290.341, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 290.341, \"end\": 290.601, \"score\": 0.556}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 290.601, \"end\": 290.881, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"捷\", \"start\": 290.881, \"end\": 291.141, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"克\", \"start\": 291.141, \"end\": 291.822, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 291.822, \"end\": 291.962, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"歐\", \"start\": 291.962, \"end\": 292.182, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 292.182, \"end\": 292.302, \"score\": 0.516}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 292.302, \"end\": 292.562, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 292.562, \"end\": 292.742, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 292.742, \"end\": 293.062, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:07,632\n主席有請林部長那麼歐中司的司長如果等一下稍後需要的話可以協助部長回應請部長還有司長部長早委員早我們今天的題目其實就是如何運用國際友我組織來讓我國加入聯合國所以說我想承接剛剛這個沈伯陽委員的說法就是中國\n\n2\n00:00:27,419 --> 00:00:27,479\n委員會應該優先\n\n3\n00:00:49,083 --> 00:01:10,572\n所以中華民國國民就是台獨份子啊因為我必須講中華民國就是一個國家如果你要去延伸中國的定義的話那當然我們的定義我們自己做主沒錯但是他現在就是真的包山包海了我們要知道中華民國的國民你一出生接下來你有機會就會拿到身份證嘛對不對\n\n4\n00:01:11,212 --> 00:01:16,277\n所以這個部分部長你怎麼來看我延續的事來講是我們在這個推動國際組織的這個部分現在第一線的外管人員去強調我是中華民國的外交官的時候害怕嗎\n\n5\n00:01:28,035 --> 00:01:46,499\n外交官我們不會害怕我們就是說捍衛國家主權跟人民我覺得這個非常重要因為對於中國的恫嚇他其實就是先說先贏但是在先說先贏之後我們也了解到的是國際現實的狀況底下那麼除了大概統促黨新黨這種就是認為中華民國\n\n6\n00:01:50,714 --> 00:02:14,615\n等於中華人民共和國的一部分這種政治立場不然的話我們身為中華民國的國民那麼不論是從昨天的國防部的國軍弟兄保衛中華民國保衛我們自己的國家到第一線的外交人員但是我們看到的現在的國際現實是我特別列出來現在有53個國家跟中國是遷由引渡的條款包括香港\n\n7\n00:02:15,316 --> 00:02:44,395\n那麼言下之意就是現在說實話如果香港送到香港也等於送到中國我特別列出的53國當中像韓國、泰國、菲律賓、越南、新加坡、馬來西亞甚至於法國、英國、德國、義大利、捷克為什麼我會特別標紅點的原因是根據我的了解這些都是現在接下來今天大概就是學校尤其中小學生最後一天上課馬上進入7月就是旅遊的高峰季了\n\n8\n00:02:44,835 --> 00:03:04,706\n那麼當中國是用這種缺席審判的方式都可以來進行程序的時候我們拿著中華民國的護照出國那麼中國的懲治新規定外管要怎麼樣如何來因應會不會有剛剛我們所講的他隨便安你一個罪名就把你先用\n\n9\n00:03:05,626 --> 00:03:31,825\n所謂缺席審判然後就把你的人先押走甚至於把他引渡到中國你們現在有進行這樣的思考或者是跟國安單位或是相關的單位來進行SOP的演練或者是開會討論嗎有已經有開過國安高層的會議也責成國安會跟相關部會包括外交部就具體的因應再進一步來這個就是來讓\n\n10\n00:03:34,967 --> 00:04:03,943\n能夠有一個整體的因應的做法特別對外交部來講我們對外管因為這個涉及到跟當地國家的交涉怎麼去預防或萬一有發生的時候去妥善的因應那我們也訓練外管要注意這個最近這個因為中共公布了這個所謂陳志台獨的這些相關的意見之後可能的輿情的反應跟我們的溝通還有後續的因應\n\n11\n00:04:04,423 --> 00:04:12,927\n因為對於很多的國人來講今天一個最新的民調是有七成以上的民眾認為自己是台灣人那麼對於台灣民眾來講認為自己是中華民國的國民這個更是畫上等號無庸置疑的比如說我現在要舉一個例子就是昨天我們的校副總統也出席了這個在台灣舉辦的文化奧運的記者會我們有超過22個文化的表團會前往巴黎另外我們台灣代表隊其實現在也已經啟程出發了\n\n12\n00:04:33,297 --> 00:04:53,562\n也就是說7月20號開始之後我們看到的是會有許多包括參加奧運或者是表演文化表團現在人就在歐洲那麼這些由引渡條款的國家當中就包括了法國英國德國義大利跟捷克這些歐五的國家是連在一起的\n\n13\n00:04:53,942 --> 00:05:14,190\n有些人他是為了看奧運而去歐洲有些人當然是我們的代表國家代表隊會參加奧運或者是出席表演現在人就在歐洲那麼零突如其來的像這樣的一個新規範跟新規定對於這些代表隊或者是前往歐洲的人民的部分我想問一下歐洲司做了哪些準備\n\n14\n00:05:17,371 --> 00:05:35,517\n報告委員我們對於這個如果有萬一有發生什麼緊急應變我們已經有擬定緊急應變計畫那同時我們也請外管來進行演練那有關於這個新生出來的這個22條的問題\n\n15\n00:05:38,078 --> 00:05:47,830\n那我想依據國際的引渡的基本的原則他也必須要兼顧人權尤其您剛剛所提到這些國家基本上都是民主國家\n\n16\n00:05:48,609 --> 00:06:05,683\n好,但是如果就如同沈梁委員剛剛所說的他絕對第一個罪名不會認為說是安寧一個臺獨分裂分子他可以是用其他的詐騙或是其他的罪犯的名義包括過去我曾經在這裡質詢過國安局的局長他會檢查你的手機認為你的手機當中有認為他們不符合規定的\n\n17\n00:06:11,187 --> 00:06:25,447\n那麼像這樣的狀況的時候當然那是在中國會發生但是在歐洲的時候他用其他的方式的時候這個部分你們有沒有提醒國人必須要注意包括現在提醒要前往歐洲的民眾國人要了解\n\n18\n00:06:29,290 --> 00:06:52,087\n我想我們目前也會加強跟我們營業相近的夥伴的國家的溝通那尤其是在引渡的事情上面我想他們也會都應據他們個別的國內法他們是基於他們的法治跟民主理念我們會特別提醒說這方面他們也要特別的謹慎尤其是當涉及到中國的問題的時候\n\n19\n00:06:53,370 --> 00:07:14,642\n好那最後一個問題要請教部長的就是有關於現在中美代表俞大雷所引發的這些爭議對於部內來講現在是不是已經調查清楚了我想應該是分成兩個部分第一個當然就是有關於公款的這個使用那麼公款的使用我認為外交人員在國外代表的就是我們的國家就是中華民國\n\n20\n00:07:16,764 --> 00:07:29,179\n不到奢華但是我認為也不需要裝窮尤其是台灣canhelp台灣是一個可以協助各個國家的所以在公款的使用上面我們明明白白會有規矩會有規定那麼有它必要該花我們則花\n\n21\n00:07:33,003 --> 00:07:54,212\n那這個部分我想外交部應該可以給一個比較明確的答案那麼至於還有其他包括館長尤其是余大雷他在管理上面有沒有出問題這個部分現在外交部有查清楚了嗎有答案了嗎因為包括現在國民黨要求他兩個禮拜之內回來但是我們要知道外交工作尤其是剛剛我們提到的\n\n22\n00:07:55,973 --> 00:07:56,674\n所以部長這兩個問題外交部查清楚了嗎?\n\n23\n00:08:14,068 --> 00:08:27,023\n採購的部分我想都是依法依程序相關的規範辦理至於說個別的項目外界有一些不同的這個意見涉及到\n\n24\n00:08:28,462 --> 00:08:28,722\n那這有超出預算嗎?\n\n25\n00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:20,870\n他都是需要經過我們秘書處還有我們的會計單位同意還有核可所以這個程序上是沒有問題所以說認定上那當然就是把它解釋清楚那立法委員也有要這個資料我們也有給那當然有些說因為什麼用秘因為涉及到外管他判斷這些項目可能會涉及到一些機敏性但是內容的部分都有讓委員可以知道\n\n26\n00:09:21,690 --> 00:09:34,761\n那至於說管理上確實在第一線打仗壓力很大那同仁特別辛苦我們一定要能夠相互的扶持因為我們是一致要對外那內部的管理要該檢討改革都應該不斷的來精進\n\n27\n00:09:39,244 --> 00:10:01,773\n好本席就要講的是不要讓第一線不論是基層或者是代表國家的外交官能夠感覺上好像他們的努力沒有受到重視那不論是基層或者是代表的助管的這個外交官代表其實都是同樣的對為外交來做努力那麼這個部分還是請部長要注意好謝謝\n\n28\n00:10:06,974 --> 00:10:09,384\n接下來,許巧欣委員上台質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t7632\t主席有請林部長那麼歐中司的司長如果等一下稍後需要的話可以協助部長回應請部長還有司長部長早委員早我們今天的題目其實就是如何運用國際友我組織來讓我國加入聯合國所以說我想承接剛剛這個沈伯陽委員的說法就是中國\n27419\t27479\t委員會應該優先\n49083\t70572\t所以中華民國國民就是台獨份子啊因為我必須講中華民國就是一個國家如果你要去延伸中國的定義的話那當然我們的定義我們自己做主沒錯但是他現在就是真的包山包海了我們要知道中華民國的國民你一出生接下來你有機會就會拿到身份證嘛對不對\n71212\t76277\t所以這個部分部長你怎麼來看我延續的事來講是我們在這個推動國際組織的這個部分現在第一線的外管人員去強調我是中華民國的外交官的時候害怕嗎\n88035\t106499\t外交官我們不會害怕我們就是說捍衛國家主權跟人民我覺得這個非常重要因為對於中國的恫嚇他其實就是先說先贏但是在先說先贏之後我們也了解到的是國際現實的狀況底下那麼除了大概統促黨新黨這種就是認為中華民國\n110714\t134615\t等於中華人民共和國的一部分這種政治立場不然的話我們身為中華民國的國民那麼不論是從昨天的國防部的國軍弟兄保衛中華民國保衛我們自己的國家到第一線的外交人員但是我們看到的現在的國際現實是我特別列出來現在有53個國家跟中國是遷由引渡的條款包括香港\n135316\t164395\t那麼言下之意就是現在說實話如果香港送到香港也等於送到中國我特別列出的53國當中像韓國、泰國、菲律賓、越南、新加坡、馬來西亞甚至於法國、英國、德國、義大利、捷克為什麼我會特別標紅點的原因是根據我的了解這些都是現在接下來今天大概就是學校尤其中小學生最後一天上課馬上進入7月就是旅遊的高峰季了\n164835\t184706\t那麼當中國是用這種缺席審判的方式都可以來進行程序的時候我們拿著中華民國的護照出國那麼中國的懲治新規定外管要怎麼樣如何來因應會不會有剛剛我們所講的他隨便安你一個罪名就把你先用\n185626\t211825\t所謂缺席審判然後就把你的人先押走甚至於把他引渡到中國你們現在有進行這樣的思考或者是跟國安單位或是相關的單位來進行SOP的演練或者是開會討論嗎有已經有開過國安高層的會議也責成國安會跟相關部會包括外交部就具體的因應再進一步來這個就是來讓\n214967\t243943\t能夠有一個整體的因應的做法特別對外交部來講我們對外管因為這個涉及到跟當地國家的交涉怎麼去預防或萬一有發生的時候去妥善的因應那我們也訓練外管要注意這個最近這個因為中共公布了這個所謂陳志台獨的這些相關的意見之後可能的輿情的反應跟我們的溝通還有後續的因應\n244423\t252927\t因為對於很多的國人來講今天一個最新的民調是有七成以上的民眾認為自己是台灣人那麼對於台灣民眾來講認為自己是中華民國的國民這個更是畫上等號無庸置疑的比如說我現在要舉一個例子就是昨天我們的校副總統也出席了這個在台灣舉辦的文化奧運的記者會我們有超過22個文化的表團會前往巴黎另外我們台灣代表隊其實現在也已經啟程出發了\n273297\t293562\t也就是說7月20號開始之後我們看到的是會有許多包括參加奧運或者是表演文化表團現在人就在歐洲那麼這些由引渡條款的國家當中就包括了法國英國德國義大利跟捷克這些歐五的國家是連在一起的\n293942\t314190\t有些人他是為了看奧運而去歐洲有些人當然是我們的代表國家代表隊會參加奧運或者是出席表演現在人就在歐洲那麼零突如其來的像這樣的一個新規範跟新規定對於這些代表隊或者是前往歐洲的人民的部分我想問一下歐洲司做了哪些準備\n317371\t335517\t報告委員我們對於這個如果有萬一有發生什麼緊急應變我們已經有擬定緊急應變計畫那同時我們也請外管來進行演練那有關於這個新生出來的這個22條的問題\n338078\t347830\t那我想依據國際的引渡的基本的原則他也必須要兼顧人權尤其您剛剛所提到這些國家基本上都是民主國家\n348609\t365683\t好,但是如果就如同沈梁委員剛剛所說的他絕對第一個罪名不會認為說是安寧一個臺獨分裂分子他可以是用其他的詐騙或是其他的罪犯的名義包括過去我曾經在這裡質詢過國安局的局長他會檢查你的手機認為你的手機當中有認為他們不符合規定的\n371187\t385447\t那麼像這樣的狀況的時候當然那是在中國會發生但是在歐洲的時候他用其他的方式的時候這個部分你們有沒有提醒國人必須要注意包括現在提醒要前往歐洲的民眾國人要了解\n389290\t412087\t我想我們目前也會加強跟我們營業相近的夥伴的國家的溝通那尤其是在引渡的事情上面我想他們也會都應據他們個別的國內法他們是基於他們的法治跟民主理念我們會特別提醒說這方面他們也要特別的謹慎尤其是當涉及到中國的問題的時候\n413370\t434642\t好那最後一個問題要請教部長的就是有關於現在中美代表俞大雷所引發的這些爭議對於部內來講現在是不是已經調查清楚了我想應該是分成兩個部分第一個當然就是有關於公款的這個使用那麼公款的使用我認為外交人員在國外代表的就是我們的國家就是中華民國\n436764\t449179\t不到奢華但是我認為也不需要裝窮尤其是台灣can help台灣是一個可以協助各個國家的所以在公款的使用上面我們明明白白會有規矩會有規定那麼有它必要該花我們則花\n453003\t474212\t那這個部分我想外交部應該可以給一個比較明確的答案那麼至於還有其他包括館長尤其是余大雷他在管理上面有沒有出問題這個部分現在外交部有查清楚了嗎有答案了嗎因為包括現在國民黨要求他兩個禮拜之內回來但是我們要知道外交工作尤其是剛剛我們提到的\n475973\t476674\t所以部長這兩個問題外交部查清楚了嗎?\n494068\t507023\t採購的部分我想都是依法依程序相關的規範辦理至於說個別的項目外界有一些不同的這個意見涉及到\n508462\t508722\t那這有超出預算嗎?\n535240\t560870\t他都是需要經過我們秘書處還有我們的會計單位同意還有核可所以這個程序上是沒有問題所以說認定上那當然就是把它解釋清楚那立法委員也有要這個資料我們也有給那當然有些說因為什麼用秘因為涉及到外管他判斷這些項目可能會涉及到一些機敏性但是內容的部分都有讓委員可以知道\n561690\t574761\t那至於說管理上確實在第一線打仗壓力很大那同仁特別辛苦我們一定要能夠相互的扶持因為我們是一致要對外那內部的管理要該檢討改革都應該不斷的來精進\n579244\t601773\t好 本席就要講的是不要讓第一線不論是基層或者是代表國家的外交官能夠感覺上好像他們的努力沒有受到重視那不論是基層或者是代表的助管的這個外交官代表其實都是同樣的對為外交來做努力那麼這個部分還是請部長要注意好謝謝\n606974\t609384\t接下來,許巧欣委員上台質詢\n","txt":"主席有請林部長那麼歐中司的司長如果等一下稍後需要的話可以協助部長回應請部長還有司長部長早委員早我們今天的題目其實就是如何運用國際友我組織來讓我國加入聯合國所以說我想承接剛剛這個沈伯陽委員的說法就是中國\n委員會應該優先\n所以中華民國國民就是台獨份子啊因為我必須講中華民國就是一個國家如果你要去延伸中國的定義的話那當然我們的定義我們自己做主沒錯但是他現在就是真的包山包海了我們要知道中華民國的國民你一出生接下來你有機會就會拿到身份證嘛對不對\n所以這個部分部長你怎麼來看我延續的事來講是我們在這個推動國際組織的這個部分現在第一線的外管人員去強調我是中華民國的外交官的時候害怕嗎\n外交官我們不會害怕我們就是說捍衛國家主權跟人民我覺得這個非常重要因為對於中國的恫嚇他其實就是先說先贏但是在先說先贏之後我們也了解到的是國際現實的狀況底下那麼除了大概統促黨新黨這種就是認為中華民國\n等於中華人民共和國的一部分這種政治立場不然的話我們身為中華民國的國民那麼不論是從昨天的國防部的國軍弟兄保衛中華民國保衛我們自己的國家到第一線的外交人員但是我們看到的現在的國際現實是我特別列出來現在有53個國家跟中國是遷由引渡的條款包括香港\n那麼言下之意就是現在說實話如果香港送到香港也等於送到中國我特別列出的53國當中像韓國、泰國、菲律賓、越南、新加坡、馬來西亞甚至於法國、英國、德國、義大利、捷克為什麼我會特別標紅點的原因是根據我的了解這些都是現在接下來今天大概就是學校尤其中小學生最後一天上課馬上進入7月就是旅遊的高峰季了\n那麼當中國是用這種缺席審判的方式都可以來進行程序的時候我們拿著中華民國的護照出國那麼中國的懲治新規定外管要怎麼樣如何來因應會不會有剛剛我們所講的他隨便安你一個罪名就把你先用\n所謂缺席審判然後就把你的人先押走甚至於把他引渡到中國你們現在有進行這樣的思考或者是跟國安單位或是相關的單位來進行SOP的演練或者是開會討論嗎有已經有開過國安高層的會議也責成國安會跟相關部會包括外交部就具體的因應再進一步來這個就是來讓\n能夠有一個整體的因應的做法特別對外交部來講我們對外管因為這個涉及到跟當地國家的交涉怎麼去預防或萬一有發生的時候去妥善的因應那我們也訓練外管要注意這個最近這個因為中共公布了這個所謂陳志台獨的這些相關的意見之後可能的輿情的反應跟我們的溝通還有後續的因應\n因為對於很多的國人來講今天一個最新的民調是有七成以上的民眾認為自己是台灣人那麼對於台灣民眾來講認為自己是中華民國的國民這個更是畫上等號無庸置疑的比如說我現在要舉一個例子就是昨天我們的校副總統也出席了這個在台灣舉辦的文化奧運的記者會我們有超過22個文化的表團會前往巴黎另外我們台灣代表隊其實現在也已經啟程出發了\n也就是說7月20號開始之後我們看到的是會有許多包括參加奧運或者是表演文化表團現在人就在歐洲那麼這些由引渡條款的國家當中就包括了法國英國德國義大利跟捷克這些歐五的國家是連在一起的\n有些人他是為了看奧運而去歐洲有些人當然是我們的代表國家代表隊會參加奧運或者是出席表演現在人就在歐洲那麼零突如其來的像這樣的一個新規範跟新規定對於這些代表隊或者是前往歐洲的人民的部分我想問一下歐洲司做了哪些準備\n報告委員我們對於這個如果有萬一有發生什麼緊急應變我們已經有擬定緊急應變計畫那同時我們也請外管來進行演練那有關於這個新生出來的這個22條的問題\n那我想依據國際的引渡的基本的原則他也必須要兼顧人權尤其您剛剛所提到這些國家基本上都是民主國家\n好,但是如果就如同沈梁委員剛剛所說的他絕對第一個罪名不會認為說是安寧一個臺獨分裂分子他可以是用其他的詐騙或是其他的罪犯的名義包括過去我曾經在這裡質詢過國安局的局長他會檢查你的手機認為你的手機當中有認為他們不符合規定的\n那麼像這樣的狀況的時候當然那是在中國會發生但是在歐洲的時候他用其他的方式的時候這個部分你們有沒有提醒國人必須要注意包括現在提醒要前往歐洲的民眾國人要了解\n我想我們目前也會加強跟我們營業相近的夥伴的國家的溝通那尤其是在引渡的事情上面我想他們也會都應據他們個別的國內法他們是基於他們的法治跟民主理念我們會特別提醒說這方面他們也要特別的謹慎尤其是當涉及到中國的問題的時候\n好那最後一個問題要請教部長的就是有關於現在中美代表俞大雷所引發的這些爭議對於部內來講現在是不是已經調查清楚了我想應該是分成兩個部分第一個當然就是有關於公款的這個使用那麼公款的使用我認為外交人員在國外代表的就是我們的國家就是中華民國\n不到奢華但是我認為也不需要裝窮尤其是台灣can help台灣是一個可以協助各個國家的所以在公款的使用上面我們明明白白會有規矩會有規定那麼有它必要該花我們則花\n那這個部分我想外交部應該可以給一個比較明確的答案那麼至於還有其他包括館長尤其是余大雷他在管理上面有沒有出問題這個部分現在外交部有查清楚了嗎有答案了嗎因為包括現在國民黨要求他兩個禮拜之內回來但是我們要知道外交工作尤其是剛剛我們提到的\n所以部長這兩個問題外交部查清楚了嗎?\n採購的部分我想都是依法依程序相關的規範辦理至於說個別的項目外界有一些不同的這個意見涉及到\n那這有超出預算嗎?\n他都是需要經過我們秘書處還有我們的會計單位同意還有核可所以這個程序上是沒有問題所以說認定上那當然就是把它解釋清楚那立法委員也有要這個資料我們也有給那當然有些說因為什麼用秘因為涉及到外管他判斷這些項目可能會涉及到一些機敏性但是內容的部分都有讓委員可以知道\n那至於說管理上確實在第一線打仗壓力很大那同仁特別辛苦我們一定要能夠相互的扶持因為我們是一致要對外那內部的管理要該檢討改革都應該不斷的來精進\n好 本席就要講的是不要讓第一線不論是基層或者是代表國家的外交官能夠感覺上好像他們的努力沒有受到重視那不論是基層或者是代表的助管的這個外交官代表其實都是同樣的對為外交來做努力那麼這個部分還是請部長要注意好謝謝\n接下來,許巧欣委員上台質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:07.632\n主席有請林部長那麼歐中司的司長如果等一下稍後需要的話可以協助部長回應請部長還有司長部長早委員早我們今天的題目其實就是如何運用國際友我組織來讓我國加入聯合國所以說我想承接剛剛這個沈伯陽委員的說法就是中國\n\n00:27.419 --> 00:27.479\n委員會應該優先\n\n00:49.083 --> 01:10.572\n所以中華民國國民就是台獨份子啊因為我必須講中華民國就是一個國家如果你要去延伸中國的定義的話那當然我們的定義我們自己做主沒錯但是他現在就是真的包山包海了我們要知道中華民國的國民你一出生接下來你有機會就會拿到身份證嘛對不對\n\n01:11.212 --> 01:16.277\n所以這個部分部長你怎麼來看我延續的事來講是我們在這個推動國際組織的這個部分現在第一線的外管人員去強調我是中華民國的外交官的時候害怕嗎\n\n01:28.035 --> 01:46.499\n外交官我們不會害怕我們就是說捍衛國家主權跟人民我覺得這個非常重要因為對於中國的恫嚇他其實就是先說先贏但是在先說先贏之後我們也了解到的是國際現實的狀況底下那麼除了大概統促黨新黨這種就是認為中華民國\n\n01:50.714 --> 02:14.615\n等於中華人民共和國的一部分這種政治立場不然的話我們身為中華民國的國民那麼不論是從昨天的國防部的國軍弟兄保衛中華民國保衛我們自己的國家到第一線的外交人員但是我們看到的現在的國際現實是我特別列出來現在有53個國家跟中國是遷由引渡的條款包括香港\n\n02:15.316 --> 02:44.395\n那麼言下之意就是現在說實話如果香港送到香港也等於送到中國我特別列出的53國當中像韓國、泰國、菲律賓、越南、新加坡、馬來西亞甚至於法國、英國、德國、義大利、捷克為什麼我會特別標紅點的原因是根據我的了解這些都是現在接下來今天大概就是學校尤其中小學生最後一天上課馬上進入7月就是旅遊的高峰季了\n\n02:44.835 --> 03:04.706\n那麼當中國是用這種缺席審判的方式都可以來進行程序的時候我們拿著中華民國的護照出國那麼中國的懲治新規定外管要怎麼樣如何來因應會不會有剛剛我們所講的他隨便安你一個罪名就把你先用\n\n03:05.626 --> 03:31.825\n所謂缺席審判然後就把你的人先押走甚至於把他引渡到中國你們現在有進行這樣的思考或者是跟國安單位或是相關的單位來進行SOP的演練或者是開會討論嗎有已經有開過國安高層的會議也責成國安會跟相關部會包括外交部就具體的因應再進一步來這個就是來讓\n\n03:34.967 --> 04:03.943\n能夠有一個整體的因應的做法特別對外交部來講我們對外管因為這個涉及到跟當地國家的交涉怎麼去預防或萬一有發生的時候去妥善的因應那我們也訓練外管要注意這個最近這個因為中共公布了這個所謂陳志台獨的這些相關的意見之後可能的輿情的反應跟我們的溝通還有後續的因應\n\n04:04.423 --> 04:12.927\n因為對於很多的國人來講今天一個最新的民調是有七成以上的民眾認為自己是台灣人那麼對於台灣民眾來講認為自己是中華民國的國民這個更是畫上等號無庸置疑的比如說我現在要舉一個例子就是昨天我們的校副總統也出席了這個在台灣舉辦的文化奧運的記者會我們有超過22個文化的表團會前往巴黎另外我們台灣代表隊其實現在也已經啟程出發了\n\n04:33.297 --> 04:53.562\n也就是說7月20號開始之後我們看到的是會有許多包括參加奧運或者是表演文化表團現在人就在歐洲那麼這些由引渡條款的國家當中就包括了法國英國德國義大利跟捷克這些歐五的國家是連在一起的\n\n04:53.942 --> 05:14.190\n有些人他是為了看奧運而去歐洲有些人當然是我們的代表國家代表隊會參加奧運或者是出席表演現在人就在歐洲那麼零突如其來的像這樣的一個新規範跟新規定對於這些代表隊或者是前往歐洲的人民的部分我想問一下歐洲司做了哪些準備\n\n05:17.371 --> 05:35.517\n報告委員我們對於這個如果有萬一有發生什麼緊急應變我們已經有擬定緊急應變計畫那同時我們也請外管來進行演練那有關於這個新生出來的這個22條的問題\n\n05:38.078 --> 05:47.830\n那我想依據國際的引渡的基本的原則他也必須要兼顧人權尤其您剛剛所提到這些國家基本上都是民主國家\n\n05:48.609 --> 06:05.683\n好,但是如果就如同沈梁委員剛剛所說的他絕對第一個罪名不會認為說是安寧一個臺獨分裂分子他可以是用其他的詐騙或是其他的罪犯的名義包括過去我曾經在這裡質詢過國安局的局長他會檢查你的手機認為你的手機當中有認為他們不符合規定的\n\n06:11.187 --> 06:25.447\n那麼像這樣的狀況的時候當然那是在中國會發生但是在歐洲的時候他用其他的方式的時候這個部分你們有沒有提醒國人必須要注意包括現在提醒要前往歐洲的民眾國人要了解\n\n06:29.290 --> 06:52.087\n我想我們目前也會加強跟我們營業相近的夥伴的國家的溝通那尤其是在引渡的事情上面我想他們也會都應據他們個別的國內法他們是基於他們的法治跟民主理念我們會特別提醒說這方面他們也要特別的謹慎尤其是當涉及到中國的問題的時候\n\n06:53.370 --> 07:14.642\n好那最後一個問題要請教部長的就是有關於現在中美代表俞大雷所引發的這些爭議對於部內來講現在是不是已經調查清楚了我想應該是分成兩個部分第一個當然就是有關於公款的這個使用那麼公款的使用我認為外交人員在國外代表的就是我們的國家就是中華民國\n\n07:16.764 --> 07:29.179\n不到奢華但是我認為也不需要裝窮尤其是台灣canhelp台灣是一個可以協助各個國家的所以在公款的使用上面我們明明白白會有規矩會有規定那麼有它必要該花我們則花\n\n07:33.003 --> 07:54.212\n那這個部分我想外交部應該可以給一個比較明確的答案那麼至於還有其他包括館長尤其是余大雷他在管理上面有沒有出問題這個部分現在外交部有查清楚了嗎有答案了嗎因為包括現在國民黨要求他兩個禮拜之內回來但是我們要知道外交工作尤其是剛剛我們提到的\n\n07:55.973 --> 07:56.674\n所以部長這兩個問題外交部查清楚了嗎?\n\n08:14.068 --> 08:27.023\n採購的部分我想都是依法依程序相關的規範辦理至於說個別的項目外界有一些不同的這個意見涉及到\n\n08:28.462 --> 08:28.722\n那這有超出預算嗎?\n\n08:55.240 --> 09:20.870\n他都是需要經過我們秘書處還有我們的會計單位同意還有核可所以這個程序上是沒有問題所以說認定上那當然就是把它解釋清楚那立法委員也有要這個資料我們也有給那當然有些說因為什麼用秘因為涉及到外管他判斷這些項目可能會涉及到一些機敏性但是內容的部分都有讓委員可以知道\n\n09:21.690 --> 09:34.761\n那至於說管理上確實在第一線打仗壓力很大那同仁特別辛苦我們一定要能夠相互的扶持因為我們是一致要對外那內部的管理要該檢討改革都應該不斷的來精進\n\n09:39.244 --> 10:01.773\n好本席就要講的是不要讓第一線不論是基層或者是代表國家的外交官能夠感覺上好像他們的努力沒有受到重視那不論是基層或者是代表的助管的這個外交官代表其實都是同樣的對為外交來做努力那麼這個部分還是請部長要注意好謝謝\n\n10:06.974 --> 10:09.384\n接下來,許巧欣委員上台質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":7.632,"text":"主席有請林部長那麼歐中司的司長如果等一下稍後需要的話可以協助部長回應請部長還有司長部長早委員早我們今天的題目其實就是如何運用國際友我組織來讓我國加入聯合國所以說我想承接剛剛這個沈伯陽委員的說法就是中國"},{"start":27.419,"end":27.479,"text":"委員會應該優先"},{"start":49.083,"end":70.572,"text":"所以中華民國國民就是台獨份子啊因為我必須講中華民國就是一個國家如果你要去延伸中國的定義的話那當然我們的定義我們自己做主沒錯但是他現在就是真的包山包海了我們要知道中華民國的國民你一出生接下來你有機會就會拿到身份證嘛對不對"},{"start":71.212,"end":76.277,"text":"所以這個部分部長你怎麼來看我延續的事來講是我們在這個推動國際組織的這個部分現在第一線的外管人員去強調我是中華民國的外交官的時候害怕嗎"},{"start":88.035,"end":106.499,"text":"外交官我們不會害怕我們就是說捍衛國家主權跟人民我覺得這個非常重要因為對於中國的恫嚇他其實就是先說先贏但是在先說先贏之後我們也了解到的是國際現實的狀況底下那麼除了大概統促黨新黨這種就是認為中華民國"},{"start":110.714,"end":134.615,"text":"等於中華人民共和國的一部分這種政治立場不然的話我們身為中華民國的國民那麼不論是從昨天的國防部的國軍弟兄保衛中華民國保衛我們自己的國家到第一線的外交人員但是我們看到的現在的國際現實是我特別列出來現在有53個國家跟中國是遷由引渡的條款包括香港"},{"start":135.316,"end":164.395,"text":"那麼言下之意就是現在說實話如果香港送到香港也等於送到中國我特別列出的53國當中像韓國、泰國、菲律賓、越南、新加坡、馬來西亞甚至於法國、英國、德國、義大利、捷克為什麼我會特別標紅點的原因是根據我的了解這些都是現在接下來今天大概就是學校尤其中小學生最後一天上課馬上進入7月就是旅遊的高峰季了"},{"start":164.835,"end":184.706,"text":"那麼當中國是用這種缺席審判的方式都可以來進行程序的時候我們拿著中華民國的護照出國那麼中國的懲治新規定外管要怎麼樣如何來因應會不會有剛剛我們所講的他隨便安你一個罪名就把你先用"},{"start":185.626,"end":211.825,"text":"所謂缺席審判然後就把你的人先押走甚至於把他引渡到中國你們現在有進行這樣的思考或者是跟國安單位或是相關的單位來進行SOP的演練或者是開會討論嗎有已經有開過國安高層的會議也責成國安會跟相關部會包括外交部就具體的因應再進一步來這個就是來讓"},{"start":214.967,"end":243.943,"text":"能夠有一個整體的因應的做法特別對外交部來講我們對外管因為這個涉及到跟當地國家的交涉怎麼去預防或萬一有發生的時候去妥善的因應那我們也訓練外管要注意這個最近這個因為中共公布了這個所謂陳志台獨的這些相關的意見之後可能的輿情的反應跟我們的溝通還有後續的因應"},{"start":244.423,"end":252.927,"text":"因為對於很多的國人來講今天一個最新的民調是有七成以上的民眾認為自己是台灣人那麼對於台灣民眾來講認為自己是中華民國的國民這個更是畫上等號無庸置疑的比如說我現在要舉一個例子就是昨天我們的校副總統也出席了這個在台灣舉辦的文化奧運的記者會我們有超過22個文化的表團會前往巴黎另外我們台灣代表隊其實現在也已經啟程出發了"},{"start":273.297,"end":293.562,"text":"也就是說7月20號開始之後我們看到的是會有許多包括參加奧運或者是表演文化表團現在人就在歐洲那麼這些由引渡條款的國家當中就包括了法國英國德國義大利跟捷克這些歐五的國家是連在一起的"},{"start":293.942,"end":314.19,"text":"有些人他是為了看奧運而去歐洲有些人當然是我們的代表國家代表隊會參加奧運或者是出席表演現在人就在歐洲那麼零突如其來的像這樣的一個新規範跟新規定對於這些代表隊或者是前往歐洲的人民的部分我想問一下歐洲司做了哪些準備"},{"start":317.371,"end":335.517,"text":"報告委員我們對於這個如果有萬一有發生什麼緊急應變我們已經有擬定緊急應變計畫那同時我們也請外管來進行演練那有關於這個新生出來的這個22條的問題"},{"start":338.078,"end":347.83,"text":"那我想依據國際的引渡的基本的原則他也必須要兼顧人權尤其您剛剛所提到這些國家基本上都是民主國家"},{"start":348.609,"end":365.683,"text":"好,但是如果就如同沈梁委員剛剛所說的他絕對第一個罪名不會認為說是安寧一個臺獨分裂分子他可以是用其他的詐騙或是其他的罪犯的名義包括過去我曾經在這裡質詢過國安局的局長他會檢查你的手機認為你的手機當中有認為他們不符合規定的"},{"start":371.187,"end":385.447,"text":"那麼像這樣的狀況的時候當然那是在中國會發生但是在歐洲的時候他用其他的方式的時候這個部分你們有沒有提醒國人必須要注意包括現在提醒要前往歐洲的民眾國人要了解"},{"start":389.29,"end":412.087,"text":"我想我們目前也會加強跟我們營業相近的夥伴的國家的溝通那尤其是在引渡的事情上面我想他們也會都應據他們個別的國內法他們是基於他們的法治跟民主理念我們會特別提醒說這方面他們也要特別的謹慎尤其是當涉及到中國的問題的時候"},{"start":413.37,"end":434.642,"text":"好那最後一個問題要請教部長的就是有關於現在中美代表俞大雷所引發的這些爭議對於部內來講現在是不是已經調查清楚了我想應該是分成兩個部分第一個當然就是有關於公款的這個使用那麼公款的使用我認為外交人員在國外代表的就是我們的國家就是中華民國"},{"start":436.764,"end":449.179,"text":"不到奢華但是我認為也不需要裝窮尤其是台灣can help台灣是一個可以協助各個國家的所以在公款的使用上面我們明明白白會有規矩會有規定那麼有它必要該花我們則花"},{"start":453.003,"end":474.212,"text":"那這個部分我想外交部應該可以給一個比較明確的答案那麼至於還有其他包括館長尤其是余大雷他在管理上面有沒有出問題這個部分現在外交部有查清楚了嗎有答案了嗎因為包括現在國民黨要求他兩個禮拜之內回來但是我們要知道外交工作尤其是剛剛我們提到的"},{"start":475.973,"end":476.674,"text":"所以部長這兩個問題外交部查清楚了嗎?"},{"start":494.068,"end":507.023,"text":"採購的部分我想都是依法依程序相關的規範辦理至於說個別的項目外界有一些不同的這個意見涉及到"},{"start":508.462,"end":508.722,"text":"那這有超出預算嗎?"},{"start":535.24,"end":560.87,"text":"他都是需要經過我們秘書處還有我們的會計單位同意還有核可所以這個程序上是沒有問題所以說認定上那當然就是把它解釋清楚那立法委員也有要這個資料我們也有給那當然有些說因為什麼用秘因為涉及到外管他判斷這些項目可能會涉及到一些機敏性但是內容的部分都有讓委員可以知道"},{"start":561.69,"end":574.761,"text":"那至於說管理上確實在第一線打仗壓力很大那同仁特別辛苦我們一定要能夠相互的扶持因為我們是一致要對外那內部的管理要該檢討改革都應該不斷的來精進"},{"start":579.244,"end":601.773,"text":"好 本席就要講的是不要讓第一線不論是基層或者是代表國家的外交官能夠感覺上好像他們的努力沒有受到重視那不論是基層或者是代表的助管的這個外交官代表其實都是同樣的對為外交來做努力那麼這個部分還是請部長要注意好謝謝"},{"start":606.974,"end":609.384,"text":"接下來,許巧欣委員上台質詢"}]}}}}