{"id":154349,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154349","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c997b8841e8c9330fda706b406df85b80b8981cfbc017771be027a2bf8945983e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:07:29 - 10:19:34","影片長度":"00:12:05","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra 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\"第一個大家想到的就是政治上層面的一個衝擊就是整個選舉制度那以現在來看的話我們憲法裡面所明定的就是只有三元跟平元的一個席次那你如果讓整個平埔族我們就變成說我們在多出一個平埔族的一個原住民出來以後按照憲法的一個指示那未來產生的衝擊你們籌備的部分你們現在方向是怎麼樣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 399.008, \"end\": 399.128, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 399.128, \"end\": 399.308, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 399.308, \"end\": 399.588, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 399.588, \"end\": 400.769, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 400.769, \"end\": 400.949, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 400.949, \"end\": 401.069, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 401.069, \"end\": 401.21, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 401.21, \"end\": 401.31, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 401.31, \"end\": 401.41, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 401.41, \"end\": 401.55, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 401.55, \"end\": 401.67, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"上\", 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0.989}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 702.234, \"end\": 702.434, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 702.434, \"end\": 702.654, \"score\": 0.673}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 702.654, \"end\": 702.675, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"韓\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"瑜\", \"start\": 704.162, \"end\": 704.182, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,865 --> 00:00:06,105\n莊瑞雄\n\n2\n00:00:26,844 --> 00:00:39,492\n謝謝我想副主委今天其實這兩個法案裡面也不是原民會的層級可以單獨來做決定我本來以為今天人事長會來\n\n3\n00:00:41,033 --> 00:01:07,098\n那可是我就跟我們原住民族有關係的我來就教了我們看到的是我們原住民族的一個委員會組織法裡面的一個規範原民會所制的這些委員跟整個國發會主委跟委員之間都是部長層級的這又不太一樣又不太一樣那你們對這個今天兩個版本\n\n4\n00:01:08,123 --> 00:01:19,442\n你的看法是怎麼樣?我對這個議題其實我比這個還更開放本席一直都主張原住民族其實他是可以自治的\n\n5\n00:01:20,609 --> 00:01:42,460\n我都這樣認為啊我都這樣認為啊那為什麼說我比較開放的一個理由就是說比較開放的理由就是說這兩個條文裡面啊我也不認為說把它比如說又去兼任政委以後啊就可以來做解決了那你們現在原民會你們現在對這一個態度是如何我現在要聽聽我們\n\n6\n00:01:43,522 --> 00:01:43,962\n委員高金素梅\n\n7\n00:02:02,874 --> 00:02:16,478\n現在目前我們的族群委員,現在16位裡面有分兩梯,一個禮拜一半的人在會裡面,一半人在各區,就是做這樣的一個交流的工作推動。我在問董事長,你為什麼把他說得浪費了?\n\n8\n00:02:23,903 --> 00:02:24,003\n主席\n\n9\n00:02:36,946 --> 00:02:58,311\n因為這次提案是希望無幾指但是我們認為還是希望能夠聘用的方式來禁用繼續負責他們來的工作這樣子好啦那我就提問一些你比較熟的啦我問的比較熟的啦你像比如說我們原民會的主委你認為說全國的議員原住民的一個議員或鄉鎮長來這樣做一個審查來行使這樣的一個同意權你的看法是如何\n\n10\n00:03:06,593 --> 00:03:29,464\n比如說你也可以認為從責任政治來看或者說整個人事同意人事權的一個行使方面到底對你們會有沒有什麼複雜或什麼自然難省的一個地方或者你們甚至於跟現狀來做一個改變的話有什麼自然難省就是談到那個風險我想真正問你的看法\n\n11\n00:03:31,136 --> 00:03:56,343\n以目前這樣在28年來原民會這樣的運作還算順暢那如果現在按照這樣的提案希望由地方的縣市、直轄市跟鄉鎮市區長的審查同意我覺得當然這個部分我們也不曉得要怎麼去調整而且這是在憲法裡面明定院長提名總統任命的一個權利而且他又是政務官\n\n12\n00:03:57,976 --> 00:04:22,856\n這個同樣的問題我是不是就教一下我們人事總署副處長這邊是委員好因為基於憲法第56條已經規定就是各部會的首長是由行政院院長提請總統任命那在目前為止是沒有這個由地方的議員再來同意這樣子的一個情況是沒有這樣的規定那你不覺得他們這樣的一個提案也很有創意嗎但限制上是很難行\n\n13\n00:04:27,998 --> 00:04:36,771\n這就是你的看法?應該說我們不太確定他細節上面要如何操作。好,那個副組長你請回啊。\n\n14\n00:04:38,294 --> 00:05:06,652\n副主委我這樣倒是這樣子認為啦原住民族我們原民會甚至我們很多原民的一個委員他希望整個原民裡面自己有更大的一個自主的一個空間這個我們可以理解啦但是我的意思就是說你以現在的這樣的一個方式對於整個原住民族的一個自治來講的話是一個突破或者說是有一個是一個有一個有注意的\n\n15\n00:05:07,568 --> 00:05:07,628\n主席\n\n16\n00:05:32,318 --> 00:05:32,418\n拜訪委員\n\n17\n00:05:48,436 --> 00:05:52,938\n我記得你們主委上任受訪的時候也講說時間上的一個緊迫他所要的一個任務是要去回應憲法第111年憲判制第17號相關的一個工作推動平補足的一個證明那以現在來看的話\n\n18\n00:06:11,345 --> 00:06:11,945\n委員高金素梅等24人擬具\n\n19\n00:06:39,008 --> 00:07:06,608\n第一個大家想到的就是政治上層面的一個衝擊就是整個選舉制度那以現在來看的話我們憲法裡面所明定的就是只有三元跟平元的一個席次那你如果讓整個平埔族我們就變成說我們在多出一個平埔族的一個原住民出來以後按照憲法的一個指示那未來產生的衝擊你們籌備的部分你們現在方向是怎麼樣\n\n20\n00:07:07,458 --> 00:07:34,924\n我們現在也成立了一個工作小組那針對社裝法的部分我們也在諮詢討論那我們7月8月大概會有17場的一個徵詢會議然後他的權益呢那權益當然是會另一法律訂正那大概在諮詢會議的時候我們的草案有分甲板乙板不是我懂你的意思我的意思是從政治層面從選舉制度來看那你怎麼辦\n\n21\n00:07:37,978 --> 00:07:38,639\n議員高金素梅等24人擬具\n\n22\n00:07:55,054 --> 00:07:55,074\n拜訪議員\n\n23\n00:08:23,237 --> 00:08:23,257\n國民黨\n\n24\n00:08:42,563 --> 00:08:55,300\n他本身對修憲是沒有興趣的啦那我的意思是你從那個副主委你從原民的一個考量的觀點來做一個出發的話你該怎麼樣去保障這些即將恢復原住民族身份的評普組的權益我談的是這個我談的是這個\n\n25\n00:09:01,536 --> 00:09:29,644\n因為當時在市縣裡面就提到就平埔族的相關權利的保障是要考量各民族發展的歷史脈絡跟現況來斟酌國家的資源分配我們會用另外一個法律來訂定另外一個法律來訂定所以你們都已經規劃好了所以目前我們的草案裡面有分假案、疑案來做一個討論來對我們現有的原住民跟平埔族群來做一個討論\n\n26\n00:09:30,638 --> 00:09:57,097\n我去回到我們鄭天財政委員的提案他這個提案又有創意了他說未來行政院長提名原民會主委以後還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長來召開審查會才能夠同意第一個當然我們像我們所擔心的很怕會造成責任政治的一個混亂原民會是行政院轄下的一個部會跟行政院一同對立法院負責如果說\n\n27\n00:09:58,058 --> 00:10:01,839\n原民會的首長還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長同意以後才能夠認命那你認為這個到底是誰對誰負責的問題當然今天有人會舉例那是不是警政署長要全國警察認命同意才能夠認命那體育署長要全國運動員同意才能認命不同的命題但對於原住民族自治這個部分我倒認為這樣的一個提案\n\n28\n00:10:24,424 --> 00:10:31,209\n我們提到因為這個部分可能會對整個原住民族政策未來在執行上因為主委是總統院長提名總統任命他有一定的任期跟政務官的身份但是又要經過\n\n29\n00:10:52,205 --> 00:10:52,806\n當然會有衝突啦一定會有衝突啦\n\n30\n00:11:04,691 --> 00:11:30,417\n責任政治來講的話誰任命誰要負最終極的一個責任但是如果你是地方的民代或者不管是議員或者是鄉鎮長他所低於他去認可他也許是自己的一個政治利益或者說地方上的一個利益跟整個市政也許會有衝突的地方跟原民會的職責也會有衝突的地方甚至到最後你都人選都不一定可以做一個產生\n\n31\n00:11:31,337 --> 00:11:42,675\n那到處要受害的還是回到整個我們整個原住民的一個質詢這個就不公平了這個就不公平了所以我看你們對於今天這樣的一個案子\n\n32\n00:11:44,162 --> 00:11:44,182\n韓國瑜\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5865\t6105\t莊瑞雄\n26844\t39492\t謝謝我想副主委今天其實這兩個法案裡面也不是原民會的層級可以單獨來做決定我本來以為今天人事長會來\n41033\t67098\t那可是我就跟我們原住民族有關係的我來就教了我們看到的是我們原住民族的一個委員會組織法裡面的一個規範原民會所制的這些委員跟整個國發會主委跟委員之間都是部長層級的這又不太一樣又不太一樣那你們對這個今天兩個版本\n68123\t79442\t你的看法是怎麼樣?我對這個議題其實我比這個還更開放本席一直都主張原住民族其實他是可以自治的\n80609\t102460\t我都這樣認為啊我都這樣認為啊那為什麼說我比較開放的一個理由就是說比較開放的理由就是說這兩個條文裡面啊我也不認為說把它比如說又去兼任政委以後啊就可以來做解決了那你們現在原民會你們現在對這一個態度是如何我現在要聽聽我們\n103522\t103962\t委員高金素梅\n122874\t136478\t現在目前我們的族群委員,現在16位裡面有分兩梯,一個禮拜一半的人在會裡面,一半人在各區,就是做這樣的一個交流的工作推動。我在問董事長,你為什麼把他說得浪費了?\n143903\t144003\t主席\n156946\t178311\t因為這次提案是希望無幾指但是我們認為還是希望能夠聘用的方式來禁用繼續負責他們來的工作這樣子好啦那我就提問一些你比較熟的啦我問的比較熟的啦你像比如說我們原民會的主委你認為說全國的議員原住民的一個議員或鄉鎮長來這樣做一個審查來行使這樣的一個同意權你的看法是如何\n186593\t209464\t比如說你也可以認為從責任政治來看或者說整個人事同意人事權的一個行使方面到底對你們會有沒有什麼複雜或什麼自然難省的一個地方或者你們甚至於跟現狀來做一個改變的話有什麼自然難省就是談到那個風險我想真正問你的看法\n211136\t236343\t以目前這樣在28年來原民會這樣的運作還算順暢那如果現在按照這樣的提案希望由地方的縣市、直轄市跟鄉鎮市區長的審查同意我覺得當然這個部分我們也不曉得要怎麼去調整而且這是在憲法裡面明定院長提名總統任命的一個權利而且他又是政務官\n237976\t262856\t這個同樣的問題我是不是就教一下我們人事總署副處長這邊是委員好因為基於憲法第56條已經規定就是各部會的首長是由行政院院長提請總統任命那在目前為止是沒有這個由地方的議員再來同意這樣子的一個情況是沒有這樣的規定那你不覺得他們這樣的一個提案也很有創意嗎但限制上是很難行\n267998\t276771\t這就是你的看法?應該說我們不太確定他細節上面要如何操作。好,那個副組長你請回啊。\n278294\t306652\t副主委我這樣倒是這樣子認為啦原住民族我們原民會甚至我們很多原民的一個委員他希望整個原民裡面自己有更大的一個自主的一個空間這個我們可以理解啦但是我的意思就是說你以現在的這樣的一個方式對於整個原住民族的一個自治來講的話是一個突破或者說是有一個是一個有一個有注意的\n307568\t307628\t主席\n332318\t332418\t拜訪委員\n348436\t352938\t我記得你們主委上任受訪的時候也講說時間上的一個緊迫他所要的一個任務是要去回應憲法第111年憲判制第17號相關的一個工作推動平補足的一個證明那以現在來看的話\n371345\t371945\t委員高金素梅等24人擬具\n399008\t426608\t第一個大家想到的就是政治上層面的一個衝擊就是整個選舉制度那以現在來看的話我們憲法裡面所明定的就是只有三元跟平元的一個席次那你如果讓整個平埔族我們就變成說我們在多出一個平埔族的一個原住民出來以後按照憲法的一個指示那未來產生的衝擊你們籌備的部分你們現在方向是怎麼樣\n427458\t454924\t我們現在也成立了一個工作小組那針對社裝法的部分我們也在諮詢討論那我們7月8月大概會有17場的一個徵詢會議然後他的權益呢那權益當然是會另一法律訂正那大概在諮詢會議的時候我們的草案有分甲板乙板不是我懂你的意思我的意思是從政治層面從選舉制度來看那你怎麼辦\n457978\t458639\t議員高金素梅等24人擬具\n475054\t475074\t拜訪議員\n503237\t503257\t國民黨\n522563\t535300\t他本身對修憲是沒有興趣的啦那我的意思是你從那個副主委你從原民的一個考量的觀點來做一個出發的話你該怎麼樣去保障這些即將恢復原住民族身份的評普組的權益我談的是這個我談的是這個\n541536\t569644\t因為當時在市縣裡面就提到就平埔族的相關權利的保障是要考量各民族發展的歷史脈絡跟現況來斟酌國家的資源分配我們會用另外一個法律來訂定另外一個法律來訂定所以你們都已經規劃好了所以目前我們的草案裡面有分假案、疑案來做一個討論來對我們現有的原住民跟平埔族群來做一個討論\n570638\t597097\t我去回到我們鄭天財政委員的提案他這個提案又有創意了他說未來行政院長提名原民會主委以後還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長來召開審查會才能夠同意第一個當然我們像我們所擔心的很怕會造成責任政治的一個混亂原民會是行政院轄下的一個部會跟行政院一同對立法院負責如果說\n598058\t601839\t原民會的首長還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長同意以後才能夠認命那你認為這個到底是誰對誰負責的問題當然今天有人會舉例那是不是警政署長要全國警察認命同意才能夠認命那體育署長要全國運動員同意才能認命不同的命題但對於原住民族自治這個部分我倒認為這樣的一個提案\n624424\t631209\t我們提到因為這個部分可能會對整個原住民族政策未來在執行上因為主委是總統院長提名總統任命他有一定的任期跟政務官的身份但是又要經過\n652205\t652806\t當然會有衝突啦 一定會有衝突啦\n664691\t690417\t責任政治來講的話誰任命誰要負最終極的一個責任但是如果你是地方的民代或者不管是議員或者是鄉鎮長他所低於他去認可他也許是自己的一個政治利益或者說地方上的一個利益跟整個市政也許會有衝突的地方跟原民會的職責也會有衝突的地方甚至到最後你都人選都不一定可以做一個產生\n691337\t702675\t那到處要受害的還是回到整個我們整個原住民的一個質詢這個就不公平了 這個就不公平了所以我看你們對於今天這樣的一個案子\n704162\t704182\t韓國瑜\n","txt":"莊瑞雄\n謝謝我想副主委今天其實這兩個法案裡面也不是原民會的層級可以單獨來做決定我本來以為今天人事長會來\n那可是我就跟我們原住民族有關係的我來就教了我們看到的是我們原住民族的一個委員會組織法裡面的一個規範原民會所制的這些委員跟整個國發會主委跟委員之間都是部長層級的這又不太一樣又不太一樣那你們對這個今天兩個版本\n你的看法是怎麼樣?我對這個議題其實我比這個還更開放本席一直都主張原住民族其實他是可以自治的\n我都這樣認為啊我都這樣認為啊那為什麼說我比較開放的一個理由就是說比較開放的理由就是說這兩個條文裡面啊我也不認為說把它比如說又去兼任政委以後啊就可以來做解決了那你們現在原民會你們現在對這一個態度是如何我現在要聽聽我們\n委員高金素梅\n現在目前我們的族群委員,現在16位裡面有分兩梯,一個禮拜一半的人在會裡面,一半人在各區,就是做這樣的一個交流的工作推動。我在問董事長,你為什麼把他說得浪費了?\n主席\n因為這次提案是希望無幾指但是我們認為還是希望能夠聘用的方式來禁用繼續負責他們來的工作這樣子好啦那我就提問一些你比較熟的啦我問的比較熟的啦你像比如說我們原民會的主委你認為說全國的議員原住民的一個議員或鄉鎮長來這樣做一個審查來行使這樣的一個同意權你的看法是如何\n比如說你也可以認為從責任政治來看或者說整個人事同意人事權的一個行使方面到底對你們會有沒有什麼複雜或什麼自然難省的一個地方或者你們甚至於跟現狀來做一個改變的話有什麼自然難省就是談到那個風險我想真正問你的看法\n以目前這樣在28年來原民會這樣的運作還算順暢那如果現在按照這樣的提案希望由地方的縣市、直轄市跟鄉鎮市區長的審查同意我覺得當然這個部分我們也不曉得要怎麼去調整而且這是在憲法裡面明定院長提名總統任命的一個權利而且他又是政務官\n這個同樣的問題我是不是就教一下我們人事總署副處長這邊是委員好因為基於憲法第56條已經規定就是各部會的首長是由行政院院長提請總統任命那在目前為止是沒有這個由地方的議員再來同意這樣子的一個情況是沒有這樣的規定那你不覺得他們這樣的一個提案也很有創意嗎但限制上是很難行\n這就是你的看法?應該說我們不太確定他細節上面要如何操作。好,那個副組長你請回啊。\n副主委我這樣倒是這樣子認為啦原住民族我們原民會甚至我們很多原民的一個委員他希望整個原民裡面自己有更大的一個自主的一個空間這個我們可以理解啦但是我的意思就是說你以現在的這樣的一個方式對於整個原住民族的一個自治來講的話是一個突破或者說是有一個是一個有一個有注意的\n主席\n拜訪委員\n我記得你們主委上任受訪的時候也講說時間上的一個緊迫他所要的一個任務是要去回應憲法第111年憲判制第17號相關的一個工作推動平補足的一個證明那以現在來看的話\n委員高金素梅等24人擬具\n第一個大家想到的就是政治上層面的一個衝擊就是整個選舉制度那以現在來看的話我們憲法裡面所明定的就是只有三元跟平元的一個席次那你如果讓整個平埔族我們就變成說我們在多出一個平埔族的一個原住民出來以後按照憲法的一個指示那未來產生的衝擊你們籌備的部分你們現在方向是怎麼樣\n我們現在也成立了一個工作小組那針對社裝法的部分我們也在諮詢討論那我們7月8月大概會有17場的一個徵詢會議然後他的權益呢那權益當然是會另一法律訂正那大概在諮詢會議的時候我們的草案有分甲板乙板不是我懂你的意思我的意思是從政治層面從選舉制度來看那你怎麼辦\n議員高金素梅等24人擬具\n拜訪議員\n國民黨\n他本身對修憲是沒有興趣的啦那我的意思是你從那個副主委你從原民的一個考量的觀點來做一個出發的話你該怎麼樣去保障這些即將恢復原住民族身份的評普組的權益我談的是這個我談的是這個\n因為當時在市縣裡面就提到就平埔族的相關權利的保障是要考量各民族發展的歷史脈絡跟現況來斟酌國家的資源分配我們會用另外一個法律來訂定另外一個法律來訂定所以你們都已經規劃好了所以目前我們的草案裡面有分假案、疑案來做一個討論來對我們現有的原住民跟平埔族群來做一個討論\n我去回到我們鄭天財政委員的提案他這個提案又有創意了他說未來行政院長提名原民會主委以後還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長來召開審查會才能夠同意第一個當然我們像我們所擔心的很怕會造成責任政治的一個混亂原民會是行政院轄下的一個部會跟行政院一同對立法院負責如果說\n原民會的首長還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長同意以後才能夠認命那你認為這個到底是誰對誰負責的問題當然今天有人會舉例那是不是警政署長要全國警察認命同意才能夠認命那體育署長要全國運動員同意才能認命不同的命題但對於原住民族自治這個部分我倒認為這樣的一個提案\n我們提到因為這個部分可能會對整個原住民族政策未來在執行上因為主委是總統院長提名總統任命他有一定的任期跟政務官的身份但是又要經過\n當然會有衝突啦 一定會有衝突啦\n責任政治來講的話誰任命誰要負最終極的一個責任但是如果你是地方的民代或者不管是議員或者是鄉鎮長他所低於他去認可他也許是自己的一個政治利益或者說地方上的一個利益跟整個市政也許會有衝突的地方跟原民會的職責也會有衝突的地方甚至到最後你都人選都不一定可以做一個產生\n那到處要受害的還是回到整個我們整個原住民的一個質詢這個就不公平了 這個就不公平了所以我看你們對於今天這樣的一個案子\n韓國瑜\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.865 --> 00:06.105\n莊瑞雄\n\n00:26.844 --> 00:39.492\n謝謝我想副主委今天其實這兩個法案裡面也不是原民會的層級可以單獨來做決定我本來以為今天人事長會來\n\n00:41.033 --> 01:07.098\n那可是我就跟我們原住民族有關係的我來就教了我們看到的是我們原住民族的一個委員會組織法裡面的一個規範原民會所制的這些委員跟整個國發會主委跟委員之間都是部長層級的這又不太一樣又不太一樣那你們對這個今天兩個版本\n\n01:08.123 --> 01:19.442\n你的看法是怎麼樣?我對這個議題其實我比這個還更開放本席一直都主張原住民族其實他是可以自治的\n\n01:20.609 --> 01:42.460\n我都這樣認為啊我都這樣認為啊那為什麼說我比較開放的一個理由就是說比較開放的理由就是說這兩個條文裡面啊我也不認為說把它比如說又去兼任政委以後啊就可以來做解決了那你們現在原民會你們現在對這一個態度是如何我現在要聽聽我們\n\n01:43.522 --> 01:43.962\n委員高金素梅\n\n02:02.874 --> 02:16.478\n現在目前我們的族群委員,現在16位裡面有分兩梯,一個禮拜一半的人在會裡面,一半人在各區,就是做這樣的一個交流的工作推動。我在問董事長,你為什麼把他說得浪費了?\n\n02:23.903 --> 02:24.003\n主席\n\n02:36.946 --> 02:58.311\n因為這次提案是希望無幾指但是我們認為還是希望能夠聘用的方式來禁用繼續負責他們來的工作這樣子好啦那我就提問一些你比較熟的啦我問的比較熟的啦你像比如說我們原民會的主委你認為說全國的議員原住民的一個議員或鄉鎮長來這樣做一個審查來行使這樣的一個同意權你的看法是如何\n\n03:06.593 --> 03:29.464\n比如說你也可以認為從責任政治來看或者說整個人事同意人事權的一個行使方面到底對你們會有沒有什麼複雜或什麼自然難省的一個地方或者你們甚至於跟現狀來做一個改變的話有什麼自然難省就是談到那個風險我想真正問你的看法\n\n03:31.136 --> 03:56.343\n以目前這樣在28年來原民會這樣的運作還算順暢那如果現在按照這樣的提案希望由地方的縣市、直轄市跟鄉鎮市區長的審查同意我覺得當然這個部分我們也不曉得要怎麼去調整而且這是在憲法裡面明定院長提名總統任命的一個權利而且他又是政務官\n\n03:57.976 --> 04:22.856\n這個同樣的問題我是不是就教一下我們人事總署副處長這邊是委員好因為基於憲法第56條已經規定就是各部會的首長是由行政院院長提請總統任命那在目前為止是沒有這個由地方的議員再來同意這樣子的一個情況是沒有這樣的規定那你不覺得他們這樣的一個提案也很有創意嗎但限制上是很難行\n\n04:27.998 --> 04:36.771\n這就是你的看法?應該說我們不太確定他細節上面要如何操作。好,那個副組長你請回啊。\n\n04:38.294 --> 05:06.652\n副主委我這樣倒是這樣子認為啦原住民族我們原民會甚至我們很多原民的一個委員他希望整個原民裡面自己有更大的一個自主的一個空間這個我們可以理解啦但是我的意思就是說你以現在的這樣的一個方式對於整個原住民族的一個自治來講的話是一個突破或者說是有一個是一個有一個有注意的\n\n05:07.568 --> 05:07.628\n主席\n\n05:32.318 --> 05:32.418\n拜訪委員\n\n05:48.436 --> 05:52.938\n我記得你們主委上任受訪的時候也講說時間上的一個緊迫他所要的一個任務是要去回應憲法第111年憲判制第17號相關的一個工作推動平補足的一個證明那以現在來看的話\n\n06:11.345 --> 06:11.945\n委員高金素梅等24人擬具\n\n06:39.008 --> 07:06.608\n第一個大家想到的就是政治上層面的一個衝擊就是整個選舉制度那以現在來看的話我們憲法裡面所明定的就是只有三元跟平元的一個席次那你如果讓整個平埔族我們就變成說我們在多出一個平埔族的一個原住民出來以後按照憲法的一個指示那未來產生的衝擊你們籌備的部分你們現在方向是怎麼樣\n\n07:07.458 --> 07:34.924\n我們現在也成立了一個工作小組那針對社裝法的部分我們也在諮詢討論那我們7月8月大概會有17場的一個徵詢會議然後他的權益呢那權益當然是會另一法律訂正那大概在諮詢會議的時候我們的草案有分甲板乙板不是我懂你的意思我的意思是從政治層面從選舉制度來看那你怎麼辦\n\n07:37.978 --> 07:38.639\n議員高金素梅等24人擬具\n\n07:55.054 --> 07:55.074\n拜訪議員\n\n08:23.237 --> 08:23.257\n國民黨\n\n08:42.563 --> 08:55.300\n他本身對修憲是沒有興趣的啦那我的意思是你從那個副主委你從原民的一個考量的觀點來做一個出發的話你該怎麼樣去保障這些即將恢復原住民族身份的評普組的權益我談的是這個我談的是這個\n\n09:01.536 --> 09:29.644\n因為當時在市縣裡面就提到就平埔族的相關權利的保障是要考量各民族發展的歷史脈絡跟現況來斟酌國家的資源分配我們會用另外一個法律來訂定另外一個法律來訂定所以你們都已經規劃好了所以目前我們的草案裡面有分假案、疑案來做一個討論來對我們現有的原住民跟平埔族群來做一個討論\n\n09:30.638 --> 09:57.097\n我去回到我們鄭天財政委員的提案他這個提案又有創意了他說未來行政院長提名原民會主委以後還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長來召開審查會才能夠同意第一個當然我們像我們所擔心的很怕會造成責任政治的一個混亂原民會是行政院轄下的一個部會跟行政院一同對立法院負責如果說\n\n09:58.058 --> 10:01.839\n原民會的首長還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長同意以後才能夠認命那你認為這個到底是誰對誰負責的問題當然今天有人會舉例那是不是警政署長要全國警察認命同意才能夠認命那體育署長要全國運動員同意才能認命不同的命題但對於原住民族自治這個部分我倒認為這樣的一個提案\n\n10:24.424 --> 10:31.209\n我們提到因為這個部分可能會對整個原住民族政策未來在執行上因為主委是總統院長提名總統任命他有一定的任期跟政務官的身份但是又要經過\n\n10:52.205 --> 10:52.806\n當然會有衝突啦一定會有衝突啦\n\n11:04.691 --> 11:30.417\n責任政治來講的話誰任命誰要負最終極的一個責任但是如果你是地方的民代或者不管是議員或者是鄉鎮長他所低於他去認可他也許是自己的一個政治利益或者說地方上的一個利益跟整個市政也許會有衝突的地方跟原民會的職責也會有衝突的地方甚至到最後你都人選都不一定可以做一個產生\n\n11:31.337 --> 11:42.675\n那到處要受害的還是回到整個我們整個原住民的一個質詢這個就不公平了這個就不公平了所以我看你們對於今天這樣的一個案子\n\n11:44.162 --> 11:44.182\n韓國瑜\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.865,"end":6.105,"text":"莊瑞雄"},{"start":26.844,"end":39.492,"text":"謝謝我想副主委今天其實這兩個法案裡面也不是原民會的層級可以單獨來做決定我本來以為今天人事長會來"},{"start":41.033,"end":67.098,"text":"那可是我就跟我們原住民族有關係的我來就教了我們看到的是我們原住民族的一個委員會組織法裡面的一個規範原民會所制的這些委員跟整個國發會主委跟委員之間都是部長層級的這又不太一樣又不太一樣那你們對這個今天兩個版本"},{"start":68.123,"end":79.442,"text":"你的看法是怎麼樣?我對這個議題其實我比這個還更開放本席一直都主張原住民族其實他是可以自治的"},{"start":80.609,"end":102.46,"text":"我都這樣認為啊我都這樣認為啊那為什麼說我比較開放的一個理由就是說比較開放的理由就是說這兩個條文裡面啊我也不認為說把它比如說又去兼任政委以後啊就可以來做解決了那你們現在原民會你們現在對這一個態度是如何我現在要聽聽我們"},{"start":103.522,"end":103.962,"text":"委員高金素梅"},{"start":122.874,"end":136.478,"text":"現在目前我們的族群委員,現在16位裡面有分兩梯,一個禮拜一半的人在會裡面,一半人在各區,就是做這樣的一個交流的工作推動。我在問董事長,你為什麼把他說得浪費了?"},{"start":143.903,"end":144.003,"text":"主席"},{"start":156.946,"end":178.311,"text":"因為這次提案是希望無幾指但是我們認為還是希望能夠聘用的方式來禁用繼續負責他們來的工作這樣子好啦那我就提問一些你比較熟的啦我問的比較熟的啦你像比如說我們原民會的主委你認為說全國的議員原住民的一個議員或鄉鎮長來這樣做一個審查來行使這樣的一個同意權你的看法是如何"},{"start":186.593,"end":209.464,"text":"比如說你也可以認為從責任政治來看或者說整個人事同意人事權的一個行使方面到底對你們會有沒有什麼複雜或什麼自然難省的一個地方或者你們甚至於跟現狀來做一個改變的話有什麼自然難省就是談到那個風險我想真正問你的看法"},{"start":211.136,"end":236.343,"text":"以目前這樣在28年來原民會這樣的運作還算順暢那如果現在按照這樣的提案希望由地方的縣市、直轄市跟鄉鎮市區長的審查同意我覺得當然這個部分我們也不曉得要怎麼去調整而且這是在憲法裡面明定院長提名總統任命的一個權利而且他又是政務官"},{"start":237.976,"end":262.856,"text":"這個同樣的問題我是不是就教一下我們人事總署副處長這邊是委員好因為基於憲法第56條已經規定就是各部會的首長是由行政院院長提請總統任命那在目前為止是沒有這個由地方的議員再來同意這樣子的一個情況是沒有這樣的規定那你不覺得他們這樣的一個提案也很有創意嗎但限制上是很難行"},{"start":267.998,"end":276.771,"text":"這就是你的看法?應該說我們不太確定他細節上面要如何操作。好,那個副組長你請回啊。"},{"start":278.294,"end":306.652,"text":"副主委我這樣倒是這樣子認為啦原住民族我們原民會甚至我們很多原民的一個委員他希望整個原民裡面自己有更大的一個自主的一個空間這個我們可以理解啦但是我的意思就是說你以現在的這樣的一個方式對於整個原住民族的一個自治來講的話是一個突破或者說是有一個是一個有一個有注意的"},{"start":307.568,"end":307.628,"text":"主席"},{"start":332.318,"end":332.418,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":348.436,"end":352.938,"text":"我記得你們主委上任受訪的時候也講說時間上的一個緊迫他所要的一個任務是要去回應憲法第111年憲判制第17號相關的一個工作推動平補足的一個證明那以現在來看的話"},{"start":371.345,"end":371.945,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":399.008,"end":426.608,"text":"第一個大家想到的就是政治上層面的一個衝擊就是整個選舉制度那以現在來看的話我們憲法裡面所明定的就是只有三元跟平元的一個席次那你如果讓整個平埔族我們就變成說我們在多出一個平埔族的一個原住民出來以後按照憲法的一個指示那未來產生的衝擊你們籌備的部分你們現在方向是怎麼樣"},{"start":427.458,"end":454.924,"text":"我們現在也成立了一個工作小組那針對社裝法的部分我們也在諮詢討論那我們7月8月大概會有17場的一個徵詢會議然後他的權益呢那權益當然是會另一法律訂正那大概在諮詢會議的時候我們的草案有分甲板乙板不是我懂你的意思我的意思是從政治層面從選舉制度來看那你怎麼辦"},{"start":457.978,"end":458.639,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":475.054,"end":475.074,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":503.237,"end":503.257,"text":"國民黨"},{"start":522.563,"end":535.3,"text":"他本身對修憲是沒有興趣的啦那我的意思是你從那個副主委你從原民的一個考量的觀點來做一個出發的話你該怎麼樣去保障這些即將恢復原住民族身份的評普組的權益我談的是這個我談的是這個"},{"start":541.536,"end":569.644,"text":"因為當時在市縣裡面就提到就平埔族的相關權利的保障是要考量各民族發展的歷史脈絡跟現況來斟酌國家的資源分配我們會用另外一個法律來訂定另外一個法律來訂定所以你們都已經規劃好了所以目前我們的草案裡面有分假案、疑案來做一個討論來對我們現有的原住民跟平埔族群來做一個討論"},{"start":570.638,"end":597.097,"text":"我去回到我們鄭天財政委員的提案他這個提案又有創意了他說未來行政院長提名原民會主委以後還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長來召開審查會才能夠同意第一個當然我們像我們所擔心的很怕會造成責任政治的一個混亂原民會是行政院轄下的一個部會跟行政院一同對立法院負責如果說"},{"start":598.058,"end":601.839,"text":"原民會的首長還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長同意以後才能夠認命那你認為這個到底是誰對誰負責的問題當然今天有人會舉例那是不是警政署長要全國警察認命同意才能夠認命那體育署長要全國運動員同意才能認命不同的命題但對於原住民族自治這個部分我倒認為這樣的一個提案"},{"start":624.424,"end":631.209,"text":"我們提到因為這個部分可能會對整個原住民族政策未來在執行上因為主委是總統院長提名總統任命他有一定的任期跟政務官的身份但是又要經過"},{"start":652.205,"end":652.806,"text":"當然會有衝突啦 一定會有衝突啦"},{"start":664.691,"end":690.417,"text":"責任政治來講的話誰任命誰要負最終極的一個責任但是如果你是地方的民代或者不管是議員或者是鄉鎮長他所低於他去認可他也許是自己的一個政治利益或者說地方上的一個利益跟整個市政也許會有衝突的地方跟原民會的職責也會有衝突的地方甚至到最後你都人選都不一定可以做一個產生"},{"start":691.337,"end":702.675,"text":"那到處要受害的還是回到整個我們整個原住民的一個質詢這個就不公平了 這個就不公平了所以我看你們對於今天這樣的一個案子"},{"start":704.162,"end":704.182,"text":"韓國瑜"}]}}}}