{"id":154360,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154360","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c5eebceaf879f72c04b539dbd63c1cc91e70b5822ad681b890053f05795850e525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:45:16 - 10:59:18","影片長度":"00:14:02","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:45:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:59:18+08:00","duration":842,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":397,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時45分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：針對駐美大使在他住的地方採買的事情，引發了社會非常多的討論，部長在今天詢答的過程也做了很多的表示，但我要講一個範圍比較大，而不是只有這個個案的事情，因為我去函的時候，你們的確有回函，但編密件，雖然我對於這個事情為什麼要編密件，老實說我從法律的角度百思不得其解，但我尊重外交部，你們編密件，我就把它全部遮起來，內容我有看，但你們編密件了以後，給我的訊號是細節不能公開、內容不能討論，要不然會有洩密的問題嘛！你們編密件的基礎應該是行政院的文書處理手冊第五十一條「各機關就主管業務核定一般公務機密文書，應依法律或法律具體明確授權之法規命令為之。」你們這次編密件的法律或者是法律授權的法規命令是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：是，我是不是請同仁來說明一下？"],["李處長佩華：報告委員，因為我們各個外館的經費明細是放在我們的機密預算的內容去表達，那這樣子的表達方式其實每年都有經過大院審議同意通過，所以我們送給委員的資料是依照相關規定……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我們還是回到法規來講，因為你一直跟我講相關規定，所以我幫你們把行政院文書處理手冊第五十一條列出來了，是我引的條次錯了嗎？還是你用其他條文的規定？臺灣是法治國家，這種事情要說清楚、講明白。"],["林部長佳龍：他是說總預算在提出的時候有列在機密預算。"],["黃委員國昌：來、來、來，請部長看一下第五十一條「應依法律或法律具體明確授權之法規命令為之。」那我現在就請教你，你的法律或法律授權的法規命令基礎是什麼？這是一個很基本的問題啊！我們號稱、我們希望臺灣是一個民主法治的國家，我們跟老共不一樣，老共是人治、獨裁政體，上面的人說了就算，臺灣就不是嘛！那請問法規的依據是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我想經過大院審過的預算放在機密預算，它本身也具有法律的效力。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦！你說列為機密預算，所以把它露出來有法律的效力，沒有關係，你做這樣子的說明，法律上面站得住腳、站不住腳，大家可以進一步討論。你們說這些資訊有機敏性，恐遭中共掌握我國外館的資源配置，我國外館大使的宿舍沙發花多少錢，我們擔心中共掌握，所以會發生什麼事情？我們咖啡機花多少錢，擔心中共掌握，所以會發生什麼事情？會擔心我們的大使咖啡喝太好，然後臺灣的外交會做得太好？因為這個基本上的邏輯跟道理要跟一般的民眾講清楚，不然大家沒辦法理解。請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：請我們同仁說明一下。"],["李處長佩華：報告委員，雖然我們提供的資料是比較個案零星，但是這涉及到整體的資源配置，今天如果我將這些零星的資料用公開方式給委員，我後續的資料如果把它列為密件的話，委員一定會質疑為什麼前面是公開，所以我在處理的過程當中一定要有一個一致性，委員如果需要資料，我們絕對可以提供，但是希望還是遵從依照相關規定辦理，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我才一直問你，相關規定是什麼啊？"],["李處長佩華：謝謝委員，剛剛部長其實……"],["黃委員國昌：來、來、來，剛剛你一直在講相關規定嘛！我就具體請教你相關規定是什麼啊？"],["李處長佩華：是，謝謝委員，剛剛部長講的是只要大院這邊審議同意的話，其實它的效力是形同法律。"],["黃委員國昌：好，如果今天我把具體的數字講出去，有沒有洩密罪的問題？"],["林部長佳龍：具體的數目、項目……"],["黃委員國昌：譬如我今天講說沙發花了多少錢，我把它講出去有洩密的問題嗎？有還是沒有？"],["李處長佩華：我尊重委員的決定，謝謝。我們用……"],["黃委員國昌：這不是你尊重我的決定啦！臺灣是一個法治國家嘛！"],["李處長佩華：是，謝謝委員，因為我們既然……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們依照的法律到底是什麼？然後你今天跟我說你尊重我的決定，我具體的請教，站在外交部的立場，我把一套沙發花了多少錢講出去，有沒有洩密罪的問題？有還是沒有？"],["李處長佩華：我們用密件處理，希望委員依照相關規定辦理，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：是啦！所以到目前為止，我都尊重你們的密件嘛！我請教你密件的法律基礎是什麼？問到現在你還是講不出來啊！"],["李處長佩華：剛剛……"],["黃委員國昌：好，來……"],["林部長佳龍：預算案具有法律的效力，不過不要緊，委員，我想是這樣，因為分層授權啦！他用密是說我們原始的預算資料如果整個出去、公布，那未來所有比照辦理，只是裡面單項數字，因為有……當然是可以做一些報告，我也做額外解釋了。"],["黃委員國昌：編列密件的標準，臺灣作為一個法治國家，要不要有一個客觀的法律標準？應該要有嘛！部長，你應該可以同意嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！好，來看一下，去年外交部單位決算書，這個是我上網看到的公開資料，2023年12月5號，電匯預付美國購置新任俞大使、館長職務宿舍家具及公務手機所需費用7,697美金。奇怪，這不是機密嗎？怎麼會在決算報告裡面寫得這麼清楚？在決算報告寫成這樣，然後告訴立委索資說這是機密，這個會不會洩漏我國在大使的資源配置啊？"],["李處長佩華：不會……"],["林部長佳龍：他說不會。"],["李處長佩華：報告委員，因為我們在決算書上面只會去揭露預付款的項目，這是屬於零星採購，是看不出來整個外館的配置……"],["黃委員國昌：但是你讓大家知道最少花了7,600嘛！"],["李處長佩華：謝謝委員指教，但是我們之所以解釋提供委員的資料會涉及到密件，是因為會看得出來說整體資源的配置，我們希望是依照相關規定辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：我再說一次啦！"],["李處長佩華：這個零星採購是看不出來的……"],["黃委員國昌：零星採購看不出來，一個沙發多少錢看得出來、看不出來？"],["李處長佩華：我們是儘量公開就公開，但是如果會涉及到、危及到相關資源配置的整體項目時，我們一定要……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你今天的論點是說一套沙發多少錢會危及到整體資源的配置？"],["李處長佩華：不是，對不起，委員，不是這樣解釋，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你不就是這樣說嗎？"],["李處長佩華：沒有，這是屬於零星購置，但是我提供給委員資料涉及到全貌……"],["黃委員國昌：所以買沙發不是零星購置？"],["李處長佩華：沒有，我是說預付款上面……"],["黃委員國昌：買咖啡機是不是零星購置？買手機是不是零星購置？"],["李處長佩華：謝謝委員指教，因為在預付款上面只有部分項目，我們提供給委員的項目是比較有整體性的，會看出來全貌，所以我們希望能夠依相關規定……"],["黃委員國昌：我還是問你，能夠咖啡機一臺多少錢會不會揭露整體配置？會嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：他說不會，我想應該也不會，因為媒體報導，我們就澄清了……"],["黃委員國昌：所以咖啡機一臺多少錢是可以講的嘛！是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：是啊！因為媒體有做報導，我們也要澄清。"],["黃委員國昌：沙發一套多少錢是可以講的嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：他講單項……因為只要不涉及整體預算結構、我們整個外館預算的配置……"],["黃委員國昌：所以既然剛剛部長講了嘛……"],["林部長佳龍：可是列為密並沒有說我們對單項不能夠討論，還是可以。"],["黃委員國昌：咖啡機多少可以講、沙發多少錢可以講，這個是剛剛部長說的內容，我應該沒有誤會錯吧！"],["李處長佩華：謝謝委員，但是如果委員因為各項一直在詢問的時候，會涉及到整體的資源就看得出來，這樣子我們就要去審慎考慮。因為預付款這個項目看不出來單項各多少錢，它只是一個總數而已，所以我們是這樣子……"],["黃委員國昌：我再說一次，國家機密有國家機密保護法，一般公務機密有一般公務機的法律或法規命令，臺灣是一個法治國家，什麼是密、什麼不是密，這應該要有法律明確的標準，絕對不應該是行政單位個別恣意的決定，這樣的原則部長可以同意吧？"],["林部長佳龍：原則是可以啦！但是因為給委員的資料是很完整的時候，那個結構……它用個密其實並不是說我們不能夠討論、委員會不知道，還是可以知道，可是我覺得我們當然……"],["黃委員國昌：但是我們不能公開討論，因為公開討論就洩密啦！"],["林部長佳龍：我是覺得那個結構、那個配置，因為給委員的是只給單向嘛！但是我們現在討論的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我單向可以討論嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：可以，因為有些錯誤的報導，我們當然要澄清，不然會造成傷害啊！這個單向我是覺得解釋上是可以啦！"],["黃委員國昌：好，現在按你們內部報帳的規則，有沒有任何規定一套沙發最高金額多少錢？"],["林部長佳龍：因為各地的物價，還有一些……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我們就以美國來講，一套沙發最高的價格，你們有沒有規定？因為你們剛剛一直跟大家講，合乎規定，所以報銷嘛！合乎規定報銷、合法的，我們一定都尊重，合不合理、規定有沒有需要修改，可以再討論！但我現在問題來了，依照你們目前的規定，一套沙發有沒有設上限？我講的是規定，現在沒有牽涉到個案喔！一套沙發以在美國來講，在D.C.來講，我們採購上限的金額，按照目前外交部的規定是多少錢？還是這也是外交秘密不能說？"],["林部長佳龍：目前沒有規定啦！"],["黃委員國昌：所以沒有上限？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有規定上限。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣合理嗎？部長，你覺得？"],["林部長佳龍：每個個案都要去討論嘛！因為當地的物價……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我現在沒有在跟你討論個案，我現在在跟你討論規定嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，其實……"],["黃委員國昌：採購的金額如果沒有上限的話，那就是不管買多少錢，全部都合法，因為沒有上限啊！"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，要去申報，有一個核可的過程。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，申報核可就要按照規則嘛！所以我才問你規則有沒有上限嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：它不是一條線死的，它一定是衡量各種情況、各國的物價，然後我們的會計……"],["主席：謝謝，時間的關係，你們把事情複雜化了，你用的公開預算、你用的科目是哪一個科目，你把它編在密件嗎？機密嗎？這是公開的預算吧？"],["李處長佩華：報告委員，我們駐外館處的總數是編在公開預算，但是各個……"],["主席：對啊！你是編在公開預算啊！那你現在是胡說八道。"],["李處長佩華：對不起，委員，因為涉及到各個單位的……"],["主席：沒關係，你們把它釐清楚，本來一個很簡單的事情，大家在質疑，不管是朝野的委員，大家都希望把它釐清楚，如果會造成傷害，我們就要把它講清楚。","不好意思，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：我理解，我現在就是只拜託部長一件事情，我們駐外人員需要的資源，在第一線打仗，我們一定支持啦！"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：公務的支出，我們一定支持啦！但是花這個數額去買沙發，必要性在哪裡？那不是在辦公室，那是在他住的地方，大家才會問嘛！所以我現在也不跟你講個案，我跟你講規定，外交部可不可以告訴所有的委員，我們在外館採購各項物品，我們所依循的規定是什麼？還是有各項變數？就像以前我們要出國開會，去哪裡、一天報多少錢、什麼可以報、什麼不可以報、項目是多少，全部都有規定啊！但我今天赫然發現，原來買外館的東西，我現在在講的不是什麼機密的公務的東西，我現在在講的是咖啡機啊！是沙發啊！是床啊！是床頭櫃啊！這些東西可以沒有標準，愛怎麼買就怎麼買嗎？這是我的問題啊！"],["主席：好……"],["林部長佳龍：1萬元以上要報到我們部裡面來核可。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：這個程序我們會檢討。"],["主席：時間的關係……"],["林部長佳龍：避免有一些讓外面覺得……"],["黃委員國昌：相關的程序跟標準，會後可不可以提供給所有的委員？程序跟標準，我沒有要個案喔！程序跟標準就好了。"],["林部長佳龍：我們有支出的相關規定，如果這個部分因為已經有大家的寶貴意見，我們會納入，看怎麼樣能夠讓它有個更明確的規範。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以你的程序跟規範是不是可以提供給大家？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：可以喔？好。"],["主席：時間的關係，好，謝謝。可能也順便提供一下，因為不知道你用的是哪一個科目，可是提供支用的情形，這個部分請你們可以提供，因為它是編在公開的預算，支用情形可以提供給本委員會。","現在我們開始處理臨時提案，一共有2案，請議事人員宣讀第1案。","一、","案由：","茲因我國外交部駐美代表俞大，經吹哨者爆料及媒體報導，俞代表上任後對於公款使用有浮濫之嫌，及私人物品之採購交代不清。並有陳情指出其太太不當使用外館公務車、更有對外交基層人員使喚、霸凌情事，實有調查釐清之必要。請外交部盡速安排召回俞大代表，對此次事件與相關公費支用情形，品項、明細，駐外人員是否遭不當對待與使喚等事做出調查報告並於兩周內回覆。","提案人：徐巧芯　　黃　仁　　馬文君　　陳永康","日期：113年6月27日"],["主席：請問在場委員，有沒有什麼其他意見表達？徐巧芯委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：我是提案人之一，我想是這樣子的。我看到俞大㵢代表在美國有開記者會，也做了很多澄清，可是他在美國所做的澄清，看起來臺灣這邊還是有很多質疑。所以我覺得應該給他一個機會回來臺灣把整件事情說清楚，才能夠讓民眾瞭解真相是什麼。就像剛才我在質詢部長時，發現媒體報導跟實際情況是有出入的。站在保護外交人員的立場，我希望他親自來說明後，可以把誤會好好的、一個一個逐項解開，這樣一來，外界就不會再對駐美代表有任何誤會了。但我要特別提醒一件事，就被列為密件這部分，其實有很多費用在決算書就可以看到了，例如電視機一臺、藍芽一臺、音響一臺，所需經費1,115.93美金，折合臺幣三萬六千多的支出傳票，在現行決算書裡就有，但立法委員收到的卻是密件，這點我覺得令人質疑。最好的辦法就是請俞大㵢大使來國會做說明，這樣可以解釋清楚媒體對他可能是不公平的報導、可能讓他覺得很委屈，甚至他太太是否涉及霸凌，或是請公務人員陪他去買私人用品等等問題，我覺得這是最好的方式。以上。"],["主席：其他委員？請王定宇召委。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝召委。基本上我想我們有共識，就是這件事情要趕快釐清，所以我個人也建議外交部在法律、外交禮節、禮儀以及私德三件事情上不要拖，儘速釐清。但召回大使是大事！因此，就國內傳聞部分，我們應該讓外交部儘速調查清楚、釐清，如果說有爭議就把大使叫回來問，一個爭議就把大使叫回來問，這會影響外交事務，畢竟駐地在美國。所以我建議這兩個提案是不是可以整合一下？我們要求外交部儘速，我說的儘速是希望在今天以前，把相關事情釐清。坦白講，政府很多單位每次有人事變動時就黑函滿天飛，裡面涉及個人感受的就個別去感受，但在法律上就必須釐得非常清楚。所以外交部責無旁貸，不要再讓這些scandal、gossip去影響真正的外交工作，也不能因為這樣就把大使叫回來。所以我是不是跟我們同仁討論一下？這兩個提案其實意義、方向一樣，但真的不適合，尤其駐美是這麼重要的駐處，而且是兩週內叫他回來。我們是不是可以協調一下？"],["徐委員巧芯：第二次發言。"],["主席：徐委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們可以看到，第一，俞大㵢大使在美國是有相關發言，所以他是有話想講的。如果他沒有話想說的話，我們今天就不會提這個臨時提案。至於他到底有沒有意願？或許他是想要回來臺灣做說明的，這一點我們不知道，可以去問問看。第二，外交部所做的調查，如果給我們的都是像目前這樣的密件，那麼就算是調查出來了，能夠解決人民的疑慮嗎？裡面每一個東西都不能講，咖啡機多少錢，床墊多少錢，都被列為密件。在這樣的情況裡，就算做了調查又如何？能夠向大眾說明、解決該案的爭議嗎？我覺得兩案共同並行討論沒問題，但整體來說，不能用密件的方式來處理！應該要完全公開透明的方式，以昭公信，讓大家知道雙方的說法。尤其我們也有相關問題請俞大㵢大使做書面回復。","我可以同意剛剛王定宇召委所說，請他兩個禮拜內回來確實茲事體大，也擔心會影響他的工作與流程。但既然他都開記者會了，而我們在臺灣也有很多問題想要問他，是否能夠以書面質詢的方式，請他從美國用書面答復的方式回函，讓我們能公開給所有民眾看？如果採書面質詢方式，我同意他不用回到臺灣，這部分我可以在臨時提案做修改；但如果只是做了調查，而到時候來的全部都是密件，不好意思，我覺得這個東西跟現行狀況沒有兩樣，最後又會不了了之。"],["主席：請林楚茵委員。"],["林委員楚茵：針對這個提案，我同意王定宇委員的意見。首先，俞大㵢在美國開了記者會，我想這是非常好的狀況，畢竟這是個人各自的解讀，有人認為他開記者會就表示有話想說；但如果沒有開記者會，是不是又要說他在美國連回應都沒有？所以要請他回來臺灣。至於他是不是要回來，不應該從他有沒有想說的話與有沒有召開記者會去認定，而是應該以國家現行的狀況去看，華府、駐美是這麼重要的位置，怎能想要就把他找回來？第二，有關密件部分，我必須說我也有去申請資料，我也看到了密件。每一位委員其實都可以申請資料，如果外交部今天決定這是密件，那麼國防及外交委員會本來就可以開秘密會議。","所以是不是一定要俞大㵢回來？我還是保持比較客觀的態度，畢竟是這麼重要的一個位置，要在兩個禮拜內回來？我想大家可能要多做思考。尤其面對現在的國際局勢，駐美代表是非常重要的。","至於需不需要書面詢答或什麼的，我認為最重要的還是外交部必須要給報告。那麼到底密或不密這點，依據機密的設定，行政機關的主官本來就可以決定，這部分就看外交部等一下怎麼決定。但最重要的是，外交部必須調查清楚，不論是我剛剛在質詢講的經費使用或外館人員的管理，這兩個部分都必須講清楚！"],["主席：徐委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：第三次發言。實際上這次外交部給我們的密件，我這邊收到兩份，在此先謝謝外交部。其實你們提供的速度算是快的，而且項目是清楚的，這兩點要給予肯定。可是就密件來說，你們並沒有提供法源依據，這點跟行政院文書處理的規定……其實剛剛黃國昌有講到，這於法不合！一般來說，像我們收到其他的機密文件底下會附上法源依據來自哪裡，這是修法後一定要附上的，但你們沒有附上。沒有關係，我當然也同意民進黨團提議的，外交部要儘速調查是否符合相關採購程序，並向社會大眾說明。既然寫到向社會大眾說明……"],["王委員定宇：徐委員，你看一下我的提案，你現在要的我有寫在上面。"],["徐委員巧芯：有啊、有啊！"],["王委員定宇：剛剛聽起來，我們兩個有共識……"],["徐委員巧芯：有、有。"],["王委員定宇：所以是不是就用我的提案來通過，趕快處理……"],["徐委員巧芯：但我這邊也有一個要求，也就是委員會這邊是不是能夠提供一些問題到美國，讓俞大㵢大使能夠做書面回復？"],["王委員定宇：我這樣建議好不好？主席，其實這兩個提案可以併到我的第二個提案，委員今天質詢所關切的議題，也請外交部列入調查範圍內；如果口頭質詢來不及問的，可以補書面，讓外交部的調查可以更臻完善。我們的目的是一樣的，既然大概有共識了，我也就不再多發言了，就儘快處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：召委，我覺得還有一個地方我跟你們是比較沒有共識的。我希望我們詢問的不只是外交部單純的調查，而是我們的問題要由俞大㵢大使來做說明，因為此事不只牽涉到預算的問題，有霸凌的問題，還有夫人是否可能也有霸凌問題。剛才在質詢過程當中，因為時間不夠，所以實際上面，他們其實是沒有說明完整的，像在這裡我所收到的相關基層的不滿，至少還有三件以上，所以我想問一下，是不是……"],["王委員定宇：主席，因為這個都重複了啦，是不是就做這個提案的處理好不好？謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，所以我們是不是可以一段──比如說，請他們在本週內提供我們希望向俞大㵢大使所詢問的問題，讓他有一個書面回復的機會，併入外交部的調查，用這樣的方式，兩案並行。"],["主席：這樣應該也可以。"],["王委員定宇：行政調查有行政調查的程序，所以本委員會提了一個臨時提案，外交部也允諾儘速調查出結果，如果說我們又要進入到由我們主動來調查，由我們來決定怎麼調查方向，我個人認為是並不合適啦……"],["主席：這個應該，剛剛提到的也不是調查啦。"],["徐委員巧芯：這不是調查，我沒有說要調查喔。"],["王委員定宇：所以我說的就是剛才我們質詢的範圍，我們請外交部審酌，把它納入他們的調查範圍內，如果委員在口頭質詢沒有問到的，其實今天還可以用書面來補上來，外交部當然就是看這些詢問的內容，涉及公務的，趕快來做處理，我覺得我們這個提案其實內容寫得算完整的，兩邊的意思都有涵蓋了。"],["主席：好，謝謝召委。因為剛剛的兩個提案，其實有一部分是不太一樣的，因為一個是針對外交部，然後另外一個可能是希望由俞大使本身可以稍微做回應跟澄清，我想這個可能是不太一致的啦，不然，我們還是就兩個提案，這個部分外交部有什麼意見嗎？我們先針對第一個提案，就是以書面的部分來……"],["徐委員巧芯：部長剛剛已經提到了，本來是……"],["主席：請俞大使回應的部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，「盡速安排召回」的部分，我剛剛已經可以同意，就是接受書面質詢的部分。"],["主席：對，因為召回有時候在時程上面……還有美國其實是一個重要的地點，然後要回來可能也不是那麼容易，就這個部分，因為如果儘速釐清，對於剛剛有很多委員其實都關切的，因為美國畢竟是一個非常重要的、對我們來說是重要的國家，又要大選了，如果因為這個事情一直攪在那裡，對我們的外交工作可能也是一個傷害。對大使夫妻本身，如果可以讓他們儘速釐清，其實我覺得可能也是一個正向的處置作為，如果就這樣，由俞大使自己來做澄清說明，我想這是最清楚的，這個部分有什麼問題嗎？就這個提案。"],["林部長佳龍：是以書面的方式？"],["徐委員巧芯：書面的方式。"],["主席：對，它也是書面。"],["林部長佳龍：就透過我們外交部嘛？"],["主席：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然是透過外交部。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們來配合辦理。"],["主席：好，這個提案我們就做文字修正，這個部分是不是請外交部做一下文字修正，在你們可以執行的範圍內，待會提供出來？","現在宣讀第2案。","二、","案由：有關媒體爆料俞大㵢大使一事，要求外交部儘速調查是否符合政府相關採購程序，並向社會大眾說明，以釐清該案爭議。","提案人：林楚茵　　沈伯洋　　王定宇　　陳冠廷"],["主席：這個案子委員有沒有要說明的部分？"],["徐委員巧芯：我這邊沒有意見。"],["王委員定宇：我都已經表達過了。"],["主席：針對第2案，外交部這邊有沒有什麼其他的意見要表達？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["主席：好，那第2案就照案通過。","請議事人員宣讀第1案文字修正的部分。"],["曾秘書郁棻：第1案之文字修正：倒數第四行修正為「請外交部盡速安排俞大㵢大使以書面方式對此次事件與相關公費支用情形，品項、明細，駐外人員是否遭不當對待與使喚等事做出調查報告，並於兩周內送交立法院外交及國防委員會。」，其餘照原提案。"],["王委員定宇：一個小問題，這樣會變成俞大㵢自己調查自己，他調查我也不要相信。我的意思是說，應該是請俞大㵢就此事做報告回復外交部，由外交部完成調查報告給我們。剛才這個文字的修改，你看一下它的內容，變成俞大㵢調查自己耶，俞大㵢完成調查報告……"],["主席：沒有啦，把那個字改掉。"],["王委員定宇：俞大㵢是被調查對象耶！"],["主席：不是，現在我們不是要調查，就是他自己本身的部分，他是在做說明、回復而已，把它分開，文字可能再……"],["王委員定宇：對，所以我建議文字多加一個受詞，俞大㵢在多少多少時間內回復外交部，由外交部完成調查報告，函復我們這邊。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個我沒有問題、沒有意見，由外交部回復，沒有意見。"],["曾秘書郁棻：現在重新宣讀修正之文字。倒數第四行開始修正為「請外交部盡速安排俞大㵢大使以書面方式，對此次事件與相關公費支用情形，品項、明細，駐外人員是否遭不當對待與使喚等事提出說明，送交外交部，請外交部調查並提出報告，於兩周內送交立法院外交及國防委員會。」其餘同原始提案。"],["主席：對於修正文字的內容，各位委員有沒有意見？（無）沒有，我們照修正案通過。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時20分）","繼續開會（11時26分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。接下來請羅智強委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"154360","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154360","tool":"pyannote","id":"154360-pyannote"},"job_id":"ixFZgx8UPwWYGjMG","queued_at":"2024-06-27 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\"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 421.408, \"end\": 436.329, \"text\": \"謝謝委員指教但是我們之所以解釋提供委員的資料會涉及到密件是因為會看得出來說整體的資源的配置這樣子我們希望我們是依照相關規定辦理我又說一次啦零星採購是看不出來的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 421.408, \"end\": 421.728, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 421.728, \"end\": 421.868, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 421.868, \"end\": 422.249, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 422.249, \"end\": 422.449, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 422.449, \"end\": 422.79, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 422.79, \"end\": 423.531, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 423.531, \"end\": 423.651, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 423.651, \"end\": 423.811, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 423.811, \"end\": 423.971, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 423.971, \"end\": 424.412, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": 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648.186, \"end\": 664.377, \"text\": \"目前沒有規定啦所以沒有上線沒有規定上線這樣合理嗎?部長你覺得?每個個案都要去討論嘛因為他當地的物價沒有我現在沒有在跟你討論個案我現在在跟你討論規定嘛我跟委員報告齁採購的金額如果沒有上線的話\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 648.186, \"end\": 648.366, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 648.366, \"end\": 648.526, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 648.526, \"end\": 648.646, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 648.646, \"end\": 649.087, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 649.087, \"end\": 649.267, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 649.267, \"end\": 649.707, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 649.707, \"end\": 649.807, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 649.807, \"end\": 649.887, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 649.887, \"end\": 649.987, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 649.987, \"end\": 650.107, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 650.107, \"end\": 651.048, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": 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657.732, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 657.732, \"end\": 657.892, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 657.892, \"end\": 657.992, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 657.992, \"end\": 658.072, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 658.072, \"end\": 658.213, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 658.213, \"end\": 658.313, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 658.313, \"end\": 658.593, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 658.593, \"end\": 659.013, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 659.013, \"end\": 659.133, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 659.133, \"end\": 659.313, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 659.313, \"end\": 659.433, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 659.433, \"end\": 659.533, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 659.533, \"end\": 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00:01:26,377\n你們的基礎應該是行政院的文書處理手冊第51條各機關就主管業務核定一般公務機密文書因依法律或法律具體授權的法規命令為之你們這次編密件的法律或者是法律授權的法規命令是什麼是我同時來說明一下\n\n5\n00:01:29,451 --> 00:01:54,733\n報告委員因為我們各個外管的經費的明細是放在我們的機密預算的內容去表達那這樣子的表達方式其實每年都有經過大院審議同意通過那所以我們送給委員的資料我們是依照相關規定我們還是回到法規來講因為你一直跟我講相關規定所以我幫你們把行政院文書處理手冊第51條列出來了嗎\n\n6\n00:01:57,575 --> 00:02:22,470\n是我引的調製錯嗎?還是你用其他的條文的規定?台灣是法治國家這種事情要說清楚講明白啊他是說總預算在提出的時候對嘛來來來請部長看一下第51條因依法規或法律具體明確授權的法規命令為之嘛那我現在就請教你你的法律或法律授權的法規命令的基礎是什麼啊?\n\n7\n00:02:25,729 --> 00:02:42,245\n這是一個很基本的問題我們號稱我們希望台灣是一個民主法治的國家我們跟老共不一樣嘛老共是人質嘛是獨裁政體嘛上面的人說了就算了嘛台灣就不是嘛那請問法規的依據是什麼\n\n8\n00:02:45,212 --> 00:03:02,889\n我想經過大院審過的預算放列在機密預算它本身也具有法律的效率我這樣講好了啦你說列為機密預算然後所有把它露出來有法律的效率沒有關係齁你做這樣子的說明法律上面站得住腳站不住腳大家可以進一步討論齁你們說\n\n9\n00:03:06,264 --> 00:03:33,754\n這些資訊有機敏性恐遭中共掌握我國外館的資源配置我國外館大使的宿舍沙發花多少錢我們擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情我們咖啡機花多少錢擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情會擔心我們的大使咖啡喝太好\n\n10\n00:03:34,844 --> 00:03:38,305\n請部長我們同仁說明一下雖然我們提供的資料是比較個案零星但是這涉及到整體的資源的配置今天如果我將這些零星的資料\n\n11\n00:04:00,569 --> 00:04:01,430\n對,所以我在一直問你啊相關規定是什麼啊?\n\n12\n00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,961\n如果今天我把具體的數字講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題?\n\n13\n00:04:46,135 --> 00:04:46,675\n我尊重委員的決定,謝謝\n\n14\n00:05:00,497 --> 00:05:18,562\n這不是你尊重我的決定啊台灣是一個法治國家嘛所以你們依照我的法律到底是什麼然後你今天跟我說你尊重我的決定我具體的請教站在外交部的立場我把一套沙發花了多少錢講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題有還是沒有\n\n15\n00:05:19,702 --> 00:05:30,811\n我們用密件處理希望委員依照相關規定辦理是阿所以我到目前為止都尊重你們的密件阿我請教你密件的法律基礎是什麼問到現在你還是講不出來阿\n\n16\n00:05:34,091 --> 00:05:37,614\n編列密件的標準台灣作為一個法治國家要不要有一個客觀的法律標準應該要有嗎\n\n17\n00:06:01,297 --> 00:06:29,070\n部長你應該可以同意嘛是是吧好來看一下去年外交部單位決算書這個是我上網公開上面看到的資料來看一下2023年12月5號電惠預付美國預購新任余大使館長植物宿舍家具及公務手機所需費用7697美金奇怪這不是機密嗎\n\n18\n00:06:30,714 --> 00:06:59,379\n怎麼會在決算報告裡面寫得這麼清楚在決算報告寫成這樣然後告訴立委所知說這是機密這個會不會洩漏我國啊在大使的資源配置啊他說不會啦報委員因為我們在決算書上面只會去揭露預付款的項目這是屬於零星採購是看不出來但是你讓大家知道最少花了7600嘛\n\n19\n00:07:01,408 --> 00:07:16,329\n謝謝委員指教但是我們之所以解釋提供委員的資料會涉及到密件是因為會看得出來說整體的資源的配置這樣子我們希望我們是依照相關規定辦理我又說一次啦零星採購是看不出來的\n\n20\n00:07:17,697 --> 00:07:45,178\n林心採購看不出來一個沙發多少錢看得出來看不出來我們是盡量公開就公開但是如果會涉及到違及到相關資源的配置的整體的項目的時候我們一定要所以你今天的論理是說一套沙發多少錢會違及到整體資源的配置不是對不起委員不是這樣解釋剛剛你不就是這樣說嗎這是屬於林心購置但是我提供給委員資料所以買沙發不是林心購置\n\n21\n00:07:47,426 --> 00:07:48,956\n買咖啡機是不是零星購置?\n\n22\n00:07:50,286 --> 00:08:16,124\n買手機是不是零星購置謝謝委員指教因為在預付款上面只有部分項目那我們提供給委員的項目是比較有整體性的那會看出來全貌我還是問問題嘛咖啡機一台多少錢會不會揭露整體配置會嗎他說不會我想應該也不會所以咖啡機一台多少錢是可以講的嗎是嗎咖啡機一台多少是可以講的嗎\n\n23\n00:08:17,225 --> 00:08:20,487\n沙發一套多少錢是可以講的嗎所以既然剛剛部長講了嘛咖啡機多少可以講沙發多少錢可以講這個是剛剛部長說的內容我應該沒有誤會錯吧\n\n24\n00:08:39,974 --> 00:08:40,194\n我再說一次齁\n\n25\n00:08:58,567 --> 00:09:20,294\n國家機密有國家機密保護法一般公務機密有一般公務機密的法律或法規命令臺灣是一個法治國家什麼是密什麼不是密這應該要有法律明確的標準絕對不應該是行政單位個別自議的決定這樣的原則部長可以同意吧\n\n26\n00:09:22,170 --> 00:09:23,912\n但是我們不能公開討論因為公開討論就洩密啦\n\n27\n00:09:37,803 --> 00:10:04,111\n我是覺得那個結構啦就那個配置啦因為給委員的是不能我只給單項嘛那但是我們現在討論的時候所以我單項可以討論嗎可以因為現在有些錯誤的報導我們當然澄清不然會造成傷害啊這個單項我是覺得解釋上是可以的啊現在按你們內部報帳的規則啊按你們內部報帳的規則有沒有任何規定一套沙發最高金額多少錢\n\n28\n00:10:05,782 --> 00:10:26,479\n因為各地的物價還有一些沒有關係我們就以美國來講一套雜貨最高的價格你們有沒有規定因為你們剛剛一直跟大家講嘛合乎規定所以報銷嘛合乎規定報銷合法的我們一定都尊重合不合理規定有沒有需要修改可以再討論但我現在的問題來了\n\n29\n00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:46,832\n那依照你們目前的規定一套沙發有沒有設上限我講的是規定喔現在沒有切入到個案喔一套沙發以在美國來講在DC來講我們採購上限的金額按照目前外交部的規定是多少錢還是這也是外交秘密不能說\n\n30\n00:10:48,186 --> 00:11:04,377\n目前沒有規定啦所以沒有上線沒有規定上線這樣合理嗎?部長你覺得?每個個案都要去討論嘛因為他當地的物價沒有我現在沒有在跟你討論個案我現在在跟你討論規定嘛我跟委員報告齁採購的金額如果沒有上線的話\n\n31\n00:11:05,037 --> 00:11:22,438\n那就是不管買多少錢全部都合法因為沒有上限啊他有一個他要去申報跟那個他有一個合法的過程你申報合可就要按照規則嘛所以我才問你規則有沒有上限嘛那他不是一個一條線那個死的他一定是衡量各種情況\n\n32\n00:11:24,146 --> 00:11:38,639\n謝謝時間的關係你們把事情複雜化了你用的公開的預算你用的科目是哪一個科目你把它編在那個密件嗎機密嗎這是公開的預算吧\n\n33\n00:11:39,704 --> 00:11:42,966\n我理解,我現在只拜託部長一件事情\n\n34\n00:12:10,084 --> 00:12:27,455\n我們住外的人員需要的資源在第一線打仗我們一定支持啦公務的支出我們一定支持啦但是花這個數額去買沙發必要性在哪裡那不是在辦公室那在他住的地方\n\n35\n00:12:28,732 --> 00:12:44,170\n大家常常問嘛所以我現在我也不跟你講個案我跟你講規定外交部可不可以告訴所有的委員我們在外館採購各項物品我們所依循的規定是什麼\n\n36\n00:12:45,451 --> 00:13:08,979\n還是有各項變數就像我們以前我們要出國開會去哪裡一天報多少錢什麼可以報什麼不可以報項目是多少全部都有規定啊但我今天赫然發現原來買外館的東西我現在在講的喔不是什麼機密的公務的東西我現在在講的是咖啡機啊\n\n37\n00:13:09,739 --> 00:13:15,844\n是沙發啊?是床啊?是床頭櫃啊?這些東西可以沒有標準?\n\n38\n00:13:15,844 --> 00:13:36,702\n愛怎麼買就怎麼買嗎?這是我的問題喔?他一萬元以上要報到我們部裡面來核可,就是這個程序我們會檢討,讓他避免有一些就是外面覺得說相關的程序跟標準會後可不可以提供給所有的委員程序跟標準,我沒有要個案喔,程序跟標準就好了\n\n39\n00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:49,830\n我們有那個支出的相關規定嘛那如果這個部分因為已經有大家的寶貴意見我們會納入啊看怎麼樣能夠讓他有個更明確的規範所以你的程序跟規範是不是可以提供給大家那待會相關的可能也順便提供一下因為不知道你用的是哪一個科目可是\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t3018\t還有系列主席石馬友秦部長秦部長\n13263\t39217\t部長針對駐美大使在他住的地方採買的事情引發了社會非常多的討論部長從今天詢答的過程也做了很多的表示但我要講一個範圍比較大而不是只有這個隔岸的事情因為我去的時候去喊的時候你們的確有回函但編密件雖然\n40618\t63295\t我對於這個事情為什麼要編密件我老實說我從法律的角度百思不得己見但我尊重外交部你們編密件我就把它全部遮起來內容我有看但你們編密件了以後給我的訊號是細節不能公開內容不能討論要不然會有洩密的問題嘛好那你們編密件\n64591\t86377\t你們的基礎應該是行政院的文書處理手冊第51條各機關就主管業務核定一般公務機密文書因依法律或法律具體授權的法規命令為之你們這次編密件的法律或者是法律授權的法規命令是什麼是我同時來說明一下\n89451\t114733\t報告委員因為我們各個外管的經費的明細是放在我們的機密預算的內容去表達那這樣子的表達方式其實每年都有經過大院審議同意通過那所以我們送給委員的資料我們是依照相關規定我們還是回到法規來講因為你一直跟我講相關規定所以我幫你們把行政院文書處理手冊第51條列出來了嗎\n117575\t142470\t是我引的調製錯嗎?還是你用其他的條文的規定?台灣是法治國家這種事情要說清楚講明白啊他是說總預算在提出的時候對嘛來來來請部長看一下第51條因依法規或法律具體明確授權的法規命令為之嘛那我現在就請教你你的法律或法律授權的法規命令的基礎是什麼啊?\n145729\t162245\t這是一個很基本的問題我們號稱我們希望台灣是一個民主法治的國家我們跟老共不一樣嘛老共是人質嘛是獨裁政體嘛上面的人說了就算了嘛台灣就不是嘛那請問法規的依據是什麼\n165212\t182889\t我想經過大院審過的預算放列在機密預算它本身也具有法律的效率我這樣講好了啦你說列為機密預算然後所有把它露出來有法律的效率沒有關係齁你做這樣子的說明法律上面站得住腳站不住腳大家可以進一步討論齁你們說\n186264\t213754\t這些資訊有機敏性恐遭中共掌握我國外館的資源配置我國外館大使的宿舍沙發花多少錢我們擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情我們咖啡機花多少錢擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情會擔心我們的大使咖啡喝太好\n214844\t218305\t請部長我們同仁說明一下雖然我們提供的資料是比較個案零星但是這涉及到整體的資源的配置今天如果我將這些零星的資料\n240569\t241430\t對,所以我在一直問你啊相關規定是什麼啊?\n260720\t263961\t如果今天我把具體的數字講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題?\n286135\t286675\t我尊重委員的決定,謝謝\n300497\t318562\t這不是你尊重我的決定啊台灣是一個法治國家嘛所以你們依照我的法律到底是什麼然後你今天跟我說你尊重我的決定我具體的請教站在外交部的立場我把一套沙發花了多少錢講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題有還是沒有\n319702\t330811\t我們用密件處理希望委員依照相關規定辦理是阿所以我到目前為止都尊重你們的密件阿我請教你密件的法律基礎是什麼問到現在你還是講不出來阿\n334091\t337614\t編列密件的標準台灣作為一個法治國家要不要有一個客觀的法律標準應該要有嗎\n361297\t389070\t部長你應該可以同意嘛是是吧好來看一下去年外交部單位決算書這個是我上網公開上面看到的資料來看一下2023年12月5號電惠預付美國預購新任余大使館長植物宿舍家具及公務手機所需費用7697美金奇怪這不是機密嗎\n390714\t419379\t怎麼會在決算報告裡面寫得這麼清楚在決算報告寫成這樣然後告訴立委所知說這是機密這個會不會洩漏我國啊在大使的資源配置啊他說不會啦報委員因為我們在決算書上面只會去揭露預付款的項目這是屬於零星採購是看不出來但是你讓大家知道最少花了7600嘛\n421408\t436329\t謝謝委員指教但是我們之所以解釋提供委員的資料會涉及到密件是因為會看得出來說整體的資源的配置這樣子我們希望我們是依照相關規定辦理我又說一次啦零星採購是看不出來的\n437697\t465178\t林心採購看不出來一個沙發多少錢看得出來看不出來我們是盡量公開就公開但是如果會涉及到違及到相關資源的配置的整體的項目的時候我們一定要所以你今天的論理是說一套沙發多少錢會違及到整體資源的配置不是對不起委員不是這樣解釋剛剛你不就是這樣說嗎這是屬於林心購置但是我提供給委員資料所以買沙發不是林心購置\n467426\t468956\t買咖啡機是不是零星購置?\n470286\t496124\t買手機是不是零星購置謝謝委員指教因為在預付款上面只有部分項目那我們提供給委員的項目是比較有整體性的那會看出來全貌我還是問問題嘛咖啡機一台多少錢會不會揭露整體配置會嗎他說不會我想應該也不會所以咖啡機一台多少錢是可以講的嗎是嗎咖啡機一台多少是可以講的嗎\n497225\t500487\t沙發一套多少錢是可以講的嗎所以既然剛剛部長講了嘛咖啡機多少可以講沙發多少錢可以講這個是剛剛部長說的內容我應該沒有誤會錯吧\n519974\t520194\t我再說一次齁\n538567\t560294\t國家機密有國家機密保護法一般公務機密有一般公務機密的法律或法規命令臺灣是一個法治國家什麼是密什麼不是密這應該要有法律明確的標準絕對不應該是行政單位個別自議的決定這樣的原則部長可以同意吧\n562170\t563912\t但是我們不能公開討論因為公開討論就洩密啦\n577803\t604111\t我是覺得那個結構啦就那個配置啦因為給委員的是不能我只給單項嘛那但是我們現在討論的時候所以我單項可以討論嗎可以因為現在有些錯誤的報導我們當然澄清不然會造成傷害啊這個單項我是覺得解釋上是可以的啊現在按你們內部報帳的規則啊按你們內部報帳的規則有沒有任何規定一套沙發最高金額多少錢\n605782\t626479\t因為各地的物價還有一些沒有關係我們就以美國來講一套雜貨最高的價格你們有沒有規定因為你們剛剛一直跟大家講嘛合乎規定所以報銷嘛合乎規定報銷合法的我們一定都尊重合不合理規定有沒有需要修改可以再討論但我現在的問題來了\n628320\t646832\t那依照你們目前的規定一套沙發有沒有設上限我講的是規定喔現在沒有切入到個案喔一套沙發以在美國來講在DC來講我們採購上限的金額按照目前外交部的規定是多少錢還是這也是外交秘密不能說\n648186\t664377\t目前沒有規定啦所以沒有上線沒有規定上線這樣合理嗎?部長你覺得?每個個案都要去討論嘛因為他當地的物價沒有我現在沒有在跟你討論個案我現在在跟你討論規定嘛我跟委員報告齁採購的金額如果沒有上線的話\n665037\t682438\t那就是不管買多少錢全部都合法因為沒有上限啊他有一個他要去申報跟那個他有一個合法的過程你申報合可就要按照規則嘛所以我才問你規則有沒有上限嘛那他不是一個一條線那個死的他一定是衡量各種情況\n684146\t698639\t謝謝時間的關係你們把事情複雜化了你用的公開的預算你用的科目是哪一個科目你把它編在那個密件嗎機密嗎這是公開的預算吧\n699704\t702966\t我理解,我現在只拜託部長一件事情\n730084\t747455\t我們住外的人員需要的資源在第一線打仗我們一定支持啦公務的支出我們一定支持啦但是花這個數額去買沙發必要性在哪裡那不是在辦公室那在他住的地方\n748732\t764170\t大家常常問嘛所以我現在我也不跟你講個案我跟你講規定外交部可不可以告訴所有的委員我們在外館採購各項物品我們所依循的規定是什麼\n765451\t788979\t還是有各項變數就像我們以前我們要出國開會去哪裡一天報多少錢什麼可以報什麼不可以報項目是多少全部都有規定啊但我今天赫然發現原來買外館的東西我現在在講的喔不是什麼機密的公務的東西我現在在講的是咖啡機啊\n789739\t795844\t是沙發啊?是床啊?是床頭櫃啊?這些東西可以沒有標準?\n795844\t816702\t愛怎麼買就怎麼買嗎?這是我的問題喔?他一萬元以上要報到我們部裡面來核可,就是這個程序我們會檢討,讓他避免有一些就是外面覺得說相關的程序跟標準會後可不可以提供給所有的委員程序跟標準,我沒有要個案喔,程序跟標準就好了\n817520\t829830\t我們有那個支出的相關規定嘛那如果這個部分因為已經有大家的寶貴意見我們會納入啊看怎麼樣能夠讓他有個更明確的規範所以你的程序跟規範是不是可以提供給大家那待會相關的可能也順便提供一下因為不知道你用的是哪一個科目可是\n","txt":"還有系列主席石馬友秦部長秦部長\n部長針對駐美大使在他住的地方採買的事情引發了社會非常多的討論部長從今天詢答的過程也做了很多的表示但我要講一個範圍比較大而不是只有這個隔岸的事情因為我去的時候去喊的時候你們的確有回函但編密件雖然\n我對於這個事情為什麼要編密件我老實說我從法律的角度百思不得己見但我尊重外交部你們編密件我就把它全部遮起來內容我有看但你們編密件了以後給我的訊號是細節不能公開內容不能討論要不然會有洩密的問題嘛好那你們編密件\n你們的基礎應該是行政院的文書處理手冊第51條各機關就主管業務核定一般公務機密文書因依法律或法律具體授權的法規命令為之你們這次編密件的法律或者是法律授權的法規命令是什麼是我同時來說明一下\n報告委員因為我們各個外管的經費的明細是放在我們的機密預算的內容去表達那這樣子的表達方式其實每年都有經過大院審議同意通過那所以我們送給委員的資料我們是依照相關規定我們還是回到法規來講因為你一直跟我講相關規定所以我幫你們把行政院文書處理手冊第51條列出來了嗎\n是我引的調製錯嗎?還是你用其他的條文的規定?台灣是法治國家這種事情要說清楚講明白啊他是說總預算在提出的時候對嘛來來來請部長看一下第51條因依法規或法律具體明確授權的法規命令為之嘛那我現在就請教你你的法律或法律授權的法規命令的基礎是什麼啊?\n這是一個很基本的問題我們號稱我們希望台灣是一個民主法治的國家我們跟老共不一樣嘛老共是人質嘛是獨裁政體嘛上面的人說了就算了嘛台灣就不是嘛那請問法規的依據是什麼\n我想經過大院審過的預算放列在機密預算它本身也具有法律的效率我這樣講好了啦你說列為機密預算然後所有把它露出來有法律的效率沒有關係齁你做這樣子的說明法律上面站得住腳站不住腳大家可以進一步討論齁你們說\n這些資訊有機敏性恐遭中共掌握我國外館的資源配置我國外館大使的宿舍沙發花多少錢我們擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情我們咖啡機花多少錢擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情會擔心我們的大使咖啡喝太好\n請部長我們同仁說明一下雖然我們提供的資料是比較個案零星但是這涉及到整體的資源的配置今天如果我將這些零星的資料\n對,所以我在一直問你啊相關規定是什麼啊?\n如果今天我把具體的數字講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題?\n我尊重委員的決定,謝謝\n這不是你尊重我的決定啊台灣是一個法治國家嘛所以你們依照我的法律到底是什麼然後你今天跟我說你尊重我的決定我具體的請教站在外交部的立場我把一套沙發花了多少錢講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題有還是沒有\n我們用密件處理希望委員依照相關規定辦理是阿所以我到目前為止都尊重你們的密件阿我請教你密件的法律基礎是什麼問到現在你還是講不出來阿\n編列密件的標準台灣作為一個法治國家要不要有一個客觀的法律標準應該要有嗎\n部長你應該可以同意嘛是是吧好來看一下去年外交部單位決算書這個是我上網公開上面看到的資料來看一下2023年12月5號電惠預付美國預購新任余大使館長植物宿舍家具及公務手機所需費用7697美金奇怪這不是機密嗎\n怎麼會在決算報告裡面寫得這麼清楚在決算報告寫成這樣然後告訴立委所知說這是機密這個會不會洩漏我國啊在大使的資源配置啊他說不會啦報委員因為我們在決算書上面只會去揭露預付款的項目這是屬於零星採購是看不出來但是你讓大家知道最少花了7600嘛\n謝謝委員指教但是我們之所以解釋提供委員的資料會涉及到密件是因為會看得出來說整體的資源的配置這樣子我們希望我們是依照相關規定辦理我又說一次啦零星採購是看不出來的\n林心採購看不出來一個沙發多少錢看得出來看不出來我們是盡量公開就公開但是如果會涉及到違及到相關資源的配置的整體的項目的時候我們一定要所以你今天的論理是說一套沙發多少錢會違及到整體資源的配置不是對不起委員不是這樣解釋剛剛你不就是這樣說嗎這是屬於林心購置但是我提供給委員資料所以買沙發不是林心購置\n買咖啡機是不是零星購置?\n買手機是不是零星購置謝謝委員指教因為在預付款上面只有部分項目那我們提供給委員的項目是比較有整體性的那會看出來全貌我還是問問題嘛咖啡機一台多少錢會不會揭露整體配置會嗎他說不會我想應該也不會所以咖啡機一台多少錢是可以講的嗎是嗎咖啡機一台多少是可以講的嗎\n沙發一套多少錢是可以講的嗎所以既然剛剛部長講了嘛咖啡機多少可以講沙發多少錢可以講這個是剛剛部長說的內容我應該沒有誤會錯吧\n我再說一次齁\n國家機密有國家機密保護法一般公務機密有一般公務機密的法律或法規命令臺灣是一個法治國家什麼是密什麼不是密這應該要有法律明確的標準絕對不應該是行政單位個別自議的決定這樣的原則部長可以同意吧\n但是我們不能公開討論因為公開討論就洩密啦\n我是覺得那個結構啦就那個配置啦因為給委員的是不能我只給單項嘛那但是我們現在討論的時候所以我單項可以討論嗎可以因為現在有些錯誤的報導我們當然澄清不然會造成傷害啊這個單項我是覺得解釋上是可以的啊現在按你們內部報帳的規則啊按你們內部報帳的規則有沒有任何規定一套沙發最高金額多少錢\n因為各地的物價還有一些沒有關係我們就以美國來講一套雜貨最高的價格你們有沒有規定因為你們剛剛一直跟大家講嘛合乎規定所以報銷嘛合乎規定報銷合法的我們一定都尊重合不合理規定有沒有需要修改可以再討論但我現在的問題來了\n那依照你們目前的規定一套沙發有沒有設上限我講的是規定喔現在沒有切入到個案喔一套沙發以在美國來講在DC來講我們採購上限的金額按照目前外交部的規定是多少錢還是這也是外交秘密不能說\n目前沒有規定啦所以沒有上線沒有規定上線這樣合理嗎?部長你覺得?每個個案都要去討論嘛因為他當地的物價沒有我現在沒有在跟你討論個案我現在在跟你討論規定嘛我跟委員報告齁採購的金額如果沒有上線的話\n那就是不管買多少錢全部都合法因為沒有上限啊他有一個他要去申報跟那個他有一個合法的過程你申報合可就要按照規則嘛所以我才問你規則有沒有上限嘛那他不是一個一條線那個死的他一定是衡量各種情況\n謝謝時間的關係你們把事情複雜化了你用的公開的預算你用的科目是哪一個科目你把它編在那個密件嗎機密嗎這是公開的預算吧\n我理解,我現在只拜託部長一件事情\n我們住外的人員需要的資源在第一線打仗我們一定支持啦公務的支出我們一定支持啦但是花這個數額去買沙發必要性在哪裡那不是在辦公室那在他住的地方\n大家常常問嘛所以我現在我也不跟你講個案我跟你講規定外交部可不可以告訴所有的委員我們在外館採購各項物品我們所依循的規定是什麼\n還是有各項變數就像我們以前我們要出國開會去哪裡一天報多少錢什麼可以報什麼不可以報項目是多少全部都有規定啊但我今天赫然發現原來買外館的東西我現在在講的喔不是什麼機密的公務的東西我現在在講的是咖啡機啊\n是沙發啊?是床啊?是床頭櫃啊?這些東西可以沒有標準?\n愛怎麼買就怎麼買嗎?這是我的問題喔?他一萬元以上要報到我們部裡面來核可,就是這個程序我們會檢討,讓他避免有一些就是外面覺得說相關的程序跟標準會後可不可以提供給所有的委員程序跟標準,我沒有要個案喔,程序跟標準就好了\n我們有那個支出的相關規定嘛那如果這個部分因為已經有大家的寶貴意見我們會納入啊看怎麼樣能夠讓他有個更明確的規範所以你的程序跟規範是不是可以提供給大家那待會相關的可能也順便提供一下因為不知道你用的是哪一個科目可是\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:03.018\n還有系列主席石馬友秦部長秦部長\n\n00:13.263 --> 00:39.217\n部長針對駐美大使在他住的地方採買的事情引發了社會非常多的討論部長從今天詢答的過程也做了很多的表示但我要講一個範圍比較大而不是只有這個隔岸的事情因為我去的時候去喊的時候你們的確有回函但編密件雖然\n\n00:40.618 --> 01:03.295\n我對於這個事情為什麼要編密件我老實說我從法律的角度百思不得己見但我尊重外交部你們編密件我就把它全部遮起來內容我有看但你們編密件了以後給我的訊號是細節不能公開內容不能討論要不然會有洩密的問題嘛好那你們編密件\n\n01:04.591 --> 01:26.377\n你們的基礎應該是行政院的文書處理手冊第51條各機關就主管業務核定一般公務機密文書因依法律或法律具體授權的法規命令為之你們這次編密件的法律或者是法律授權的法規命令是什麼是我同時來說明一下\n\n01:29.451 --> 01:54.733\n報告委員因為我們各個外管的經費的明細是放在我們的機密預算的內容去表達那這樣子的表達方式其實每年都有經過大院審議同意通過那所以我們送給委員的資料我們是依照相關規定我們還是回到法規來講因為你一直跟我講相關規定所以我幫你們把行政院文書處理手冊第51條列出來了嗎\n\n01:57.575 --> 02:22.470\n是我引的調製錯嗎?還是你用其他的條文的規定?台灣是法治國家這種事情要說清楚講明白啊他是說總預算在提出的時候對嘛來來來請部長看一下第51條因依法規或法律具體明確授權的法規命令為之嘛那我現在就請教你你的法律或法律授權的法規命令的基礎是什麼啊?\n\n02:25.729 --> 02:42.245\n這是一個很基本的問題我們號稱我們希望台灣是一個民主法治的國家我們跟老共不一樣嘛老共是人質嘛是獨裁政體嘛上面的人說了就算了嘛台灣就不是嘛那請問法規的依據是什麼\n\n02:45.212 --> 03:02.889\n我想經過大院審過的預算放列在機密預算它本身也具有法律的效率我這樣講好了啦你說列為機密預算然後所有把它露出來有法律的效率沒有關係齁你做這樣子的說明法律上面站得住腳站不住腳大家可以進一步討論齁你們說\n\n03:06.264 --> 03:33.754\n這些資訊有機敏性恐遭中共掌握我國外館的資源配置我國外館大使的宿舍沙發花多少錢我們擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情我們咖啡機花多少錢擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情會擔心我們的大使咖啡喝太好\n\n03:34.844 --> 03:38.305\n請部長我們同仁說明一下雖然我們提供的資料是比較個案零星但是這涉及到整體的資源的配置今天如果我將這些零星的資料\n\n04:00.569 --> 04:01.430\n對,所以我在一直問你啊相關規定是什麼啊?\n\n04:20.720 --> 04:23.961\n如果今天我把具體的數字講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題?\n\n04:46.135 --> 04:46.675\n我尊重委員的決定,謝謝\n\n05:00.497 --> 05:18.562\n這不是你尊重我的決定啊台灣是一個法治國家嘛所以你們依照我的法律到底是什麼然後你今天跟我說你尊重我的決定我具體的請教站在外交部的立場我把一套沙發花了多少錢講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題有還是沒有\n\n05:19.702 --> 05:30.811\n我們用密件處理希望委員依照相關規定辦理是阿所以我到目前為止都尊重你們的密件阿我請教你密件的法律基礎是什麼問到現在你還是講不出來阿\n\n05:34.091 --> 05:37.614\n編列密件的標準台灣作為一個法治國家要不要有一個客觀的法律標準應該要有嗎\n\n06:01.297 --> 06:29.070\n部長你應該可以同意嘛是是吧好來看一下去年外交部單位決算書這個是我上網公開上面看到的資料來看一下2023年12月5號電惠預付美國預購新任余大使館長植物宿舍家具及公務手機所需費用7697美金奇怪這不是機密嗎\n\n06:30.714 --> 06:59.379\n怎麼會在決算報告裡面寫得這麼清楚在決算報告寫成這樣然後告訴立委所知說這是機密這個會不會洩漏我國啊在大使的資源配置啊他說不會啦報委員因為我們在決算書上面只會去揭露預付款的項目這是屬於零星採購是看不出來但是你讓大家知道最少花了7600嘛\n\n07:01.408 --> 07:16.329\n謝謝委員指教但是我們之所以解釋提供委員的資料會涉及到密件是因為會看得出來說整體的資源的配置這樣子我們希望我們是依照相關規定辦理我又說一次啦零星採購是看不出來的\n\n07:17.697 --> 07:45.178\n林心採購看不出來一個沙發多少錢看得出來看不出來我們是盡量公開就公開但是如果會涉及到違及到相關資源的配置的整體的項目的時候我們一定要所以你今天的論理是說一套沙發多少錢會違及到整體資源的配置不是對不起委員不是這樣解釋剛剛你不就是這樣說嗎這是屬於林心購置但是我提供給委員資料所以買沙發不是林心購置\n\n07:47.426 --> 07:48.956\n買咖啡機是不是零星購置?\n\n07:50.286 --> 08:16.124\n買手機是不是零星購置謝謝委員指教因為在預付款上面只有部分項目那我們提供給委員的項目是比較有整體性的那會看出來全貌我還是問問題嘛咖啡機一台多少錢會不會揭露整體配置會嗎他說不會我想應該也不會所以咖啡機一台多少錢是可以講的嗎是嗎咖啡機一台多少是可以講的嗎\n\n08:17.225 --> 08:20.487\n沙發一套多少錢是可以講的嗎所以既然剛剛部長講了嘛咖啡機多少可以講沙發多少錢可以講這個是剛剛部長說的內容我應該沒有誤會錯吧\n\n08:39.974 --> 08:40.194\n我再說一次齁\n\n08:58.567 --> 09:20.294\n國家機密有國家機密保護法一般公務機密有一般公務機密的法律或法規命令臺灣是一個法治國家什麼是密什麼不是密這應該要有法律明確的標準絕對不應該是行政單位個別自議的決定這樣的原則部長可以同意吧\n\n09:22.170 --> 09:23.912\n但是我們不能公開討論因為公開討論就洩密啦\n\n09:37.803 --> 10:04.111\n我是覺得那個結構啦就那個配置啦因為給委員的是不能我只給單項嘛那但是我們現在討論的時候所以我單項可以討論嗎可以因為現在有些錯誤的報導我們當然澄清不然會造成傷害啊這個單項我是覺得解釋上是可以的啊現在按你們內部報帳的規則啊按你們內部報帳的規則有沒有任何規定一套沙發最高金額多少錢\n\n10:05.782 --> 10:26.479\n因為各地的物價還有一些沒有關係我們就以美國來講一套雜貨最高的價格你們有沒有規定因為你們剛剛一直跟大家講嘛合乎規定所以報銷嘛合乎規定報銷合法的我們一定都尊重合不合理規定有沒有需要修改可以再討論但我現在的問題來了\n\n10:28.320 --> 10:46.832\n那依照你們目前的規定一套沙發有沒有設上限我講的是規定喔現在沒有切入到個案喔一套沙發以在美國來講在DC來講我們採購上限的金額按照目前外交部的規定是多少錢還是這也是外交秘密不能說\n\n10:48.186 --> 11:04.377\n目前沒有規定啦所以沒有上線沒有規定上線這樣合理嗎?部長你覺得?每個個案都要去討論嘛因為他當地的物價沒有我現在沒有在跟你討論個案我現在在跟你討論規定嘛我跟委員報告齁採購的金額如果沒有上線的話\n\n11:05.037 --> 11:22.438\n那就是不管買多少錢全部都合法因為沒有上限啊他有一個他要去申報跟那個他有一個合法的過程你申報合可就要按照規則嘛所以我才問你規則有沒有上限嘛那他不是一個一條線那個死的他一定是衡量各種情況\n\n11:24.146 --> 11:38.639\n謝謝時間的關係你們把事情複雜化了你用的公開的預算你用的科目是哪一個科目你把它編在那個密件嗎機密嗎這是公開的預算吧\n\n11:39.704 --> 11:42.966\n我理解,我現在只拜託部長一件事情\n\n12:10.084 --> 12:27.455\n我們住外的人員需要的資源在第一線打仗我們一定支持啦公務的支出我們一定支持啦但是花這個數額去買沙發必要性在哪裡那不是在辦公室那在他住的地方\n\n12:28.732 --> 12:44.170\n大家常常問嘛所以我現在我也不跟你講個案我跟你講規定外交部可不可以告訴所有的委員我們在外館採購各項物品我們所依循的規定是什麼\n\n12:45.451 --> 13:08.979\n還是有各項變數就像我們以前我們要出國開會去哪裡一天報多少錢什麼可以報什麼不可以報項目是多少全部都有規定啊但我今天赫然發現原來買外館的東西我現在在講的喔不是什麼機密的公務的東西我現在在講的是咖啡機啊\n\n13:09.739 --> 13:15.844\n是沙發啊?是床啊?是床頭櫃啊?這些東西可以沒有標準?\n\n13:15.844 --> 13:36.702\n愛怎麼買就怎麼買嗎?這是我的問題喔?他一萬元以上要報到我們部裡面來核可,就是這個程序我們會檢討,讓他避免有一些就是外面覺得說相關的程序跟標準會後可不可以提供給所有的委員程序跟標準,我沒有要個案喔,程序跟標準就好了\n\n13:37.520 --> 13:49.830\n我們有那個支出的相關規定嘛那如果這個部分因為已經有大家的寶貴意見我們會納入啊看怎麼樣能夠讓他有個更明確的規範所以你的程序跟規範是不是可以提供給大家那待會相關的可能也順便提供一下因為不知道你用的是哪一個科目可是\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":3.018,"text":"還有系列主席石馬友秦部長秦部長"},{"start":13.263,"end":39.217,"text":"部長針對駐美大使在他住的地方採買的事情引發了社會非常多的討論部長從今天詢答的過程也做了很多的表示但我要講一個範圍比較大而不是只有這個隔岸的事情因為我去的時候去喊的時候你們的確有回函但編密件雖然"},{"start":40.618,"end":63.295,"text":"我對於這個事情為什麼要編密件我老實說我從法律的角度百思不得己見但我尊重外交部你們編密件我就把它全部遮起來內容我有看但你們編密件了以後給我的訊號是細節不能公開內容不能討論要不然會有洩密的問題嘛好那你們編密件"},{"start":64.591,"end":86.377,"text":"你們的基礎應該是行政院的文書處理手冊第51條各機關就主管業務核定一般公務機密文書因依法律或法律具體授權的法規命令為之你們這次編密件的法律或者是法律授權的法規命令是什麼是我同時來說明一下"},{"start":89.451,"end":114.733,"text":"報告委員因為我們各個外管的經費的明細是放在我們的機密預算的內容去表達那這樣子的表達方式其實每年都有經過大院審議同意通過那所以我們送給委員的資料我們是依照相關規定我們還是回到法規來講因為你一直跟我講相關規定所以我幫你們把行政院文書處理手冊第51條列出來了嗎"},{"start":117.575,"end":142.47,"text":"是我引的調製錯嗎?還是你用其他的條文的規定?台灣是法治國家這種事情要說清楚講明白啊他是說總預算在提出的時候對嘛來來來請部長看一下第51條因依法規或法律具體明確授權的法規命令為之嘛那我現在就請教你你的法律或法律授權的法規命令的基礎是什麼啊?"},{"start":145.729,"end":162.245,"text":"這是一個很基本的問題我們號稱我們希望台灣是一個民主法治的國家我們跟老共不一樣嘛老共是人質嘛是獨裁政體嘛上面的人說了就算了嘛台灣就不是嘛那請問法規的依據是什麼"},{"start":165.212,"end":182.889,"text":"我想經過大院審過的預算放列在機密預算它本身也具有法律的效率我這樣講好了啦你說列為機密預算然後所有把它露出來有法律的效率沒有關係齁你做這樣子的說明法律上面站得住腳站不住腳大家可以進一步討論齁你們說"},{"start":186.264,"end":213.754,"text":"這些資訊有機敏性恐遭中共掌握我國外館的資源配置我國外館大使的宿舍沙發花多少錢我們擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情我們咖啡機花多少錢擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情會擔心我們的大使咖啡喝太好"},{"start":214.844,"end":218.305,"text":"請部長我們同仁說明一下雖然我們提供的資料是比較個案零星但是這涉及到整體的資源的配置今天如果我將這些零星的資料"},{"start":240.569,"end":241.43,"text":"對,所以我在一直問你啊相關規定是什麼啊?"},{"start":260.72,"end":263.961,"text":"如果今天我把具體的數字講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題?"},{"start":286.135,"end":286.675,"text":"我尊重委員的決定,謝謝"},{"start":300.497,"end":318.562,"text":"這不是你尊重我的決定啊台灣是一個法治國家嘛所以你們依照我的法律到底是什麼然後你今天跟我說你尊重我的決定我具體的請教站在外交部的立場我把一套沙發花了多少錢講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題有還是沒有"},{"start":319.702,"end":330.811,"text":"我們用密件處理希望委員依照相關規定辦理是阿所以我到目前為止都尊重你們的密件阿我請教你密件的法律基礎是什麼問到現在你還是講不出來阿"},{"start":334.091,"end":337.614,"text":"編列密件的標準台灣作為一個法治國家要不要有一個客觀的法律標準應該要有嗎"},{"start":361.297,"end":389.07,"text":"部長你應該可以同意嘛是是吧好來看一下去年外交部單位決算書這個是我上網公開上面看到的資料來看一下2023年12月5號電惠預付美國預購新任余大使館長植物宿舍家具及公務手機所需費用7697美金奇怪這不是機密嗎"},{"start":390.714,"end":419.379,"text":"怎麼會在決算報告裡面寫得這麼清楚在決算報告寫成這樣然後告訴立委所知說這是機密這個會不會洩漏我國啊在大使的資源配置啊他說不會啦報委員因為我們在決算書上面只會去揭露預付款的項目這是屬於零星採購是看不出來但是你讓大家知道最少花了7600嘛"},{"start":421.408,"end":436.329,"text":"謝謝委員指教但是我們之所以解釋提供委員的資料會涉及到密件是因為會看得出來說整體的資源的配置這樣子我們希望我們是依照相關規定辦理我又說一次啦零星採購是看不出來的"},{"start":437.697,"end":465.178,"text":"林心採購看不出來一個沙發多少錢看得出來看不出來我們是盡量公開就公開但是如果會涉及到違及到相關資源的配置的整體的項目的時候我們一定要所以你今天的論理是說一套沙發多少錢會違及到整體資源的配置不是對不起委員不是這樣解釋剛剛你不就是這樣說嗎這是屬於林心購置但是我提供給委員資料所以買沙發不是林心購置"},{"start":467.426,"end":468.956,"text":"買咖啡機是不是零星購置?"},{"start":470.286,"end":496.124,"text":"買手機是不是零星購置謝謝委員指教因為在預付款上面只有部分項目那我們提供給委員的項目是比較有整體性的那會看出來全貌我還是問問題嘛咖啡機一台多少錢會不會揭露整體配置會嗎他說不會我想應該也不會所以咖啡機一台多少錢是可以講的嗎是嗎咖啡機一台多少是可以講的嗎"},{"start":497.225,"end":500.487,"text":"沙發一套多少錢是可以講的嗎所以既然剛剛部長講了嘛咖啡機多少可以講沙發多少錢可以講這個是剛剛部長說的內容我應該沒有誤會錯吧"},{"start":519.974,"end":520.194,"text":"我再說一次齁"},{"start":538.567,"end":560.294,"text":"國家機密有國家機密保護法一般公務機密有一般公務機密的法律或法規命令臺灣是一個法治國家什麼是密什麼不是密這應該要有法律明確的標準絕對不應該是行政單位個別自議的決定這樣的原則部長可以同意吧"},{"start":562.17,"end":563.912,"text":"但是我們不能公開討論因為公開討論就洩密啦"},{"start":577.803,"end":604.111,"text":"我是覺得那個結構啦就那個配置啦因為給委員的是不能我只給單項嘛那但是我們現在討論的時候所以我單項可以討論嗎可以因為現在有些錯誤的報導我們當然澄清不然會造成傷害啊這個單項我是覺得解釋上是可以的啊現在按你們內部報帳的規則啊按你們內部報帳的規則有沒有任何規定一套沙發最高金額多少錢"},{"start":605.782,"end":626.479,"text":"因為各地的物價還有一些沒有關係我們就以美國來講一套雜貨最高的價格你們有沒有規定因為你們剛剛一直跟大家講嘛合乎規定所以報銷嘛合乎規定報銷合法的我們一定都尊重合不合理規定有沒有需要修改可以再討論但我現在的問題來了"},{"start":628.32,"end":646.832,"text":"那依照你們目前的規定一套沙發有沒有設上限我講的是規定喔現在沒有切入到個案喔一套沙發以在美國來講在DC來講我們採購上限的金額按照目前外交部的規定是多少錢還是這也是外交秘密不能說"},{"start":648.186,"end":664.377,"text":"目前沒有規定啦所以沒有上線沒有規定上線這樣合理嗎?部長你覺得?每個個案都要去討論嘛因為他當地的物價沒有我現在沒有在跟你討論個案我現在在跟你討論規定嘛我跟委員報告齁採購的金額如果沒有上線的話"},{"start":665.037,"end":682.438,"text":"那就是不管買多少錢全部都合法因為沒有上限啊他有一個他要去申報跟那個他有一個合法的過程你申報合可就要按照規則嘛所以我才問你規則有沒有上限嘛那他不是一個一條線那個死的他一定是衡量各種情況"},{"start":684.146,"end":698.639,"text":"謝謝時間的關係你們把事情複雜化了你用的公開的預算你用的科目是哪一個科目你把它編在那個密件嗎機密嗎這是公開的預算吧"},{"start":699.704,"end":702.966,"text":"我理解,我現在只拜託部長一件事情"},{"start":730.084,"end":747.455,"text":"我們住外的人員需要的資源在第一線打仗我們一定支持啦公務的支出我們一定支持啦但是花這個數額去買沙發必要性在哪裡那不是在辦公室那在他住的地方"},{"start":748.732,"end":764.17,"text":"大家常常問嘛所以我現在我也不跟你講個案我跟你講規定外交部可不可以告訴所有的委員我們在外館採購各項物品我們所依循的規定是什麼"},{"start":765.451,"end":788.979,"text":"還是有各項變數就像我們以前我們要出國開會去哪裡一天報多少錢什麼可以報什麼不可以報項目是多少全部都有規定啊但我今天赫然發現原來買外館的東西我現在在講的喔不是什麼機密的公務的東西我現在在講的是咖啡機啊"},{"start":789.739,"end":795.844,"text":"是沙發啊?是床啊?是床頭櫃啊?這些東西可以沒有標準?"},{"start":795.844,"end":816.702,"text":"愛怎麼買就怎麼買嗎?這是我的問題喔?他一萬元以上要報到我們部裡面來核可,就是這個程序我們會檢討,讓他避免有一些就是外面覺得說相關的程序跟標準會後可不可以提供給所有的委員程序跟標準,我沒有要個案喔,程序跟標準就好了"},{"start":817.52,"end":829.83,"text":"我們有那個支出的相關規定嘛那如果這個部分因為已經有大家的寶貴意見我們會納入啊看怎麼樣能夠讓他有個更明確的規範所以你的程序跟規範是不是可以提供給大家那待會相關的可能也順便提供一下因為不知道你用的是哪一個科目可是"}]}}}}