{"id":154378,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154378","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c226217901561759221a3f23b3ad13ea2ef8091c70453fc491dd507136dc6c8c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:14:58 - 12:23:32","影片長度":"00:08:34","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T12:14:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T12:23:32+08:00","duration":514,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1128,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時15分）主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：部長，首先我對於農業部在蛋的產銷管理上，我真的覺得非常奇怪！今年7月1號開始，又要跟養雞協會合作開始殺老母雞，去年的時候說要補助老母雞，說要進口種雞，那時候很多農民跟農業部講說進口太多就會造成產能過剩，農業部說沒關係，先進再講，結果進了之後我們農業部又要再花錢去殺老母雞，你會不會造成到時候又缺蛋？我不知道部長能不能承諾不會再造成缺蛋狀況？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，整個蛋雞場的產業鏈裡面，老母雞的淘汰是蛋農本來就在做的，我們是提供誘因讓他加速老母雞的淘汰……"],["葉委員元之：加速嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是用加速的……"],["葉委員元之：去年鼓勵人家多進，然後今年又叫他加速去殺，進口蛋去年一直進一堆，進了一堆之後，再花錢把它銷毀，這都是民脂民膏。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明……"],["葉委員元之：部長，沒關係啦，你如果認為沒有錯的話，我是希望你可以檢討一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定努力來……"],["葉委員元之：這個產銷問題都是花人民納稅錢，把人民納稅錢一點一滴都浪費掉，然後又會造成缺蛋，我希望農業部可以針對蛋的問題，你們仔細思考一下，怎麼從源頭把它管理，不是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳啦！","但我今天還是一樣，我想要問超思的問題、畜產會的問題，因為當時大家在問說畜產會這個採購有沒有問題，農業部當初是說沒問題，你們第一時間是說沒問題，你們說因為畜產會是用自有資金購買財物，所以沒問題，甚至於還推說畜產會我們調查不到，結果現在被大家發現說不是沒問題，包括你自己剛剛跟其他委員的詢答，你都承認了，在冷鏈還有運費這一塊，他們是沒有用採購法，所以違法了嘛！你現在又有問題，我不知道到底農業部跟畜產會之間關係是什麼，因為你未來不會跟畜產會拒絕往來，你還會透過很多補助，給它去採購很多農產品，你到底有沒有在監督它？你到底是怎麼管制？還有一開始第一時間為什麼是推託？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，畜產會跟農業部的關係，我們農業部是它的督導單位，所以畜產會所有行政方面的部分，農業部都有權力去做相關的調查。"],["葉委員元之：你們一開始不是這樣講的喔，你們農業部一開始面對外界質疑時說，畜產會是用自有資金買，那個都合法的。"],["陳部長駿季：這是兩件事情，我說從畜產會本身管理的部分，農業部是負責督導的，我們有權力去做相關行政查核，這個部分是沒問題的，第二個部分就是畜產會如果有些產銷調節，他用自有資金，先用了以後跟農業部請款的時候，有一部分是符合政府採購法就要用政府採購法，不符合政府採購法的部分，我們就會用50%以下，另外一類就是111年這一類，它是在年度先核計畫的時候，如果後續沒有照相關規範，不符合規範的，我們錢就會收回來。"],["葉委員元之：當然嘛！可是你這個就是後見之明……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["葉委員元之：理論上來講，現在畜產會是來解決國內大家缺蛋的問題，所以農業部才會補助它一筆錢讓它去採購。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以你先前就要跟它講清楚，在採購的時候比如說要符合採購法規範，蛋可以不用符合採購法，但是其他的運費、冷鏈，你要符合採購法，連這一點事情你們都無法督導，還要事後說你來跟我請款的時候，我少給一點，我就覺得非常奇怪，畜產會不是大部分的資金來源都是農業部嗎？這也都是人民的納稅錢，你讓它少請了，它如果虧本的話，最後，很多時候農業部也還是要補助給它，所以為什麼不能事先解決，一定要事後等這個事情爆出來之後，才要說這個事情已經被外界知道了，所以這個補助我們要減一半。"],["陳部長駿季：不過我想……"],["葉委員元之：農業部這樣的態度非常消極。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分就是相關的這些補助案本身就很清楚……"],["葉委員元之：部長，我只是想問你啦，接下來還會不會發生一樣的狀況？你透過畜產會要解決國內的某一個農產品稀缺的問題，然後一樣讓它先去買，然後它不合法之後，你再對它追繳，所以未來還會發生一樣的狀況嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想不是說不合法以後才去追繳……"],["葉委員元之：沒有符合採購法就是不合法。"],["陳部長駿季：我一開始剛才有跟其他委員講，這個是畜產會本身在雞蛋的採購過程中的倉儲，他們是誤解的，以為是它是跟著雞蛋一條包裝的，所以後來他們瞭解……"],["葉委員元之：部長，理論上來講，畜產會跟你的關係非常密切，畜產會董事長是林聰賢，他以前也是農業部的，所以應該也是官派的，一個這麼密切的單位，結果會讓它產生誤解，農業部都完全沒責任，一副就是沒關係，我就少給你一點錢，好像所有責任都是畜產會，應該不是這樣吧？部長，農業部對於畜產會完全沒有任何督導和管理責任嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們負有督導的責任，所以我說有很多相關的行政疏失……"],["葉委員元之：當然，過去的事情該追究就追究，我現在講的是未來呢？因為我現在跟部長詢答的感覺是你覺得你都沒有錯嘛！你覺得那是畜產會的事情，未來畜產會是不是一樣會有類似的狀況？"],["陳部長駿季：政府部門都要依法行事，相關的規範都要符合政府採購法，這是一個大原則，如果違反的話、你是惡意的、故意的，我們就會懲處。"],["葉委員元之：我們不要繞圈圈了，我的問題是農業部對於畜產會是不是還是一樣放任？"],["陳部長駿季：我們絕對不會，我們已經在加強畜產會的管理。"],["葉委員元之：會不會又造成一樣的狀況，畜產會採購的時候又誤解了，又沒有透過公開採購，又繞過了政府採購法，然後農業部再說我少給你補助，這樣無止盡循環，會發生這樣的狀況嗎？你有沒有把握未來對畜產會的監督到位？"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定會更積極地去監督，相關的……"],["葉委員元之：有沒有人謀不臧是另外一回事，因為現在檢調在查，我就不臆測，但是我現在在問農業部的官方行政責任。第二，有關於超思和亮采的關係，到底查清楚沒有？為什麼畜產會跟亮采簽約，付錢卻付給超思，為什麼？查清楚沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：亮采和超思本身的私法人關係，我們行政權沒辦法……"],["葉委員元之：什麼私法人關係？行政調查也可以知道啊！"],["陳部長駿季：但是行政調查沒有辦法去調查他們私法人的關係，包括委任和債權關係，所以我們移請檢調……"],["葉委員元之：你都沒辦法問畜產會，為什麼它是跟亮采簽約，但是付錢給超思，這沒辦法問嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們不會聽信任何一方，公部門對外講話要附我們的事實證據。"],["葉委員元之：你有沒有問？"],["陳部長駿季：證據的部分要請檢調單位去處理。"],["葉委員元之：請問農業部有沒有去問畜產會為什麼是這樣的情況？有沒有問？"],["陳部長駿季：對我來講，我覺得他們是商業關係，商業關係是私法人關係，應該請檢調單位去釐清。"],["葉委員元之：所以農業部沒有問的意思，你連查都沒有查，到現在為止，外界關心的超思和亮采的關係，你都還沒有去釐清，是這個意思嗎？就推給司法？"],["陳部長駿季：這個是必須要釐清的，但是以政府部門的行政權沒辦法去釐清這件事情，所以我們已經移請檢調。"],["葉委員元之：部長，剛剛我跟你講的是農業部和畜產會的關係，你要督導畜產會在採購要符合一定的規定，基本上，跟A廠商簽約，卻付款給B廠商，這是非常罕見的，結果你站在一個督導的責任，連問為什麼它是這樣的行為，你都說跟你沒關係，就推給司法，農業部到底要怎麼去管理畜產會這個單位？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得委員要把事情分清楚，我剛才說的私法人關係是亮采和超思之間的私法人，行政權沒辦法處理，所以移請檢調。"],["葉委員元之：當然可以處理，因為你是管理單位，你是督導單位，你要不要做而已，我真的不相信農業部每年補助那麼多錢給畜產會，你連問都不能問。"],["陳部長駿季：政府部門不能用……"],["葉委員元之：我不相信，我真的不相信……"],["陳部長駿季：政府部門真的不能用片段的訊息去對外公開。"],["葉委員元之：部長，今天我問不出答案沒有關係，但所有人都看得出來，農業部對於畜產會就是這個態度，連大家這麼關心超思和亮采的關係，你說那是私法人關係，跟你沒關係，那你要怎麼去督導畜產會？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在新聞稿裡面就有把委任關係……"],["葉委員元之：部長，既然這個問題大家這麼關心，你就要去查，我希望是這樣，國人也希望知道真相，農業部不查，我覺得是失職，謝謝。"],["主席：大家都希望知道真相，部長加油。","接下來請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員。","請陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員。","最後請邱志偉委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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513.254, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 513.254, \"end\": 513.494, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 513.494, \"end\": 513.614, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 513.614, \"end\": 513.794, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 513.794, \"end\": 513.994, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 513.994, \"end\": 514.014, \"score\": 0.166}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,477 --> 00:00:01,498\n請葉元之委員請做詢談。我們再請陳部長。\n\n2\n00:00:18,181 --> 00:00:44,086\n部長首先我是覺得對於農業部在淡的這個產銷管理我真的覺得非常奇怪今年7月1號開始又要跟養雞協會合作又要開始殺老母雞去年的時候說要補助老母雞說進口種雞那時候很多農民跟農業部講說進口太多就會造成產能過剩那農業部說沒關係先進再講然後結果進了之後我們農業部又要再花錢去殺老母雞\n\n3\n00:00:45,202 --> 00:01:13,963\n那你會不會又會造成說到時候彈又缺彈我不知道部長能不能承諾不會再造成缺彈狀況我跟委員說明就是整個彈機場的產業鏈裡面老母機的淘汰是一個彈籠本來在這做的那我們是提供誘因讓他加速這個老母機的淘汰去年鼓勵人家多進然後今年又對叫他加速去殺然後進口彈去年的話一直進一堆進了一堆之後再花錢把它銷毀\n\n4\n00:01:15,064 --> 00:01:40,069\n我跟委員說明,就是您剛才...不,不打沒關係啦你如果認為沒有錯的話我是希望你可以檢討一下因為這個產銷問題都是花人民的納稅錢把人民的納稅錢一點一都浪費掉然後又會造成缺氮我希望農業部可以把這個氮的問題你們仔細思考一下怎麼從源頭把它管理不是頭都一頭腳痛一腳啦但我今天想要問還是一向我想要問這個超市的問題,續產會的問題\n\n5\n00:01:41,969 --> 00:01:45,394\n因為農業部當時大家在問說續展會這個採購有沒有問題農業部當初是說沒問題欸你們第一時間是說沒問題欸你們說因為續展會是用自有資金購買財物所以沒問題然後甚至於還推說續展會我們調查不到\n\n6\n00:01:58,170 --> 00:02:14,248\n結果現在被大家發現說不是沒問題包括你們自己剛剛你跟其他委員的詢答你都承認嘛在冷鏈還有運費這一塊他們是沒有用採購法所以是違法了嘛你現在又有問題我不知道說到底農業部跟續產會之間關係是什麼\n\n7\n00:02:16,010 --> 00:02:27,224\n因為續產會你未來會跟他不會跟他拒絕往來嗎你還會透過很多補助給他去採購很多農產品嗎那你到底有沒有在監督他你到底是什麼管制還有一開始第一時間為什麼是推脫\n\n8\n00:02:29,454 --> 00:02:42,250\n我跟委員說明就是續展會跟農業部的關係是我們農業部是它的督導單位所以續展會的所有的行政方面的部分我們農業部都有權利去做相關的調查你們農業部一開始面對外界質疑說續展會是用自有資金買\n\n9\n00:02:48,158 --> 00:03:09,538\n這是兩件事情齁就是我都從續產會本身的管理的部分農業部是負責督導的我們有權利去做相關的行政的一個查核這個部分是是沒問題的那第二個部分就是續產會如果有一個產交條件他用自有資金先用了以後跟農業跟農業部請款的時候那就要付\n\n10\n00:03:09,858 --> 00:03:36,087\n有一部分是符合政府採購法就要政府採購法不符合政府採購法的部分我們就會50%以下那另外一類就是111年這一類他是在年度先核計劃年度先核計劃的時候他如果後續沒有照相關的規範的時候那不符合規範的我們錢都會收回來當然嘛可是你這個就是後見之明沒有以理論上來講你現在續產會是來解決國內大家缺氮的問題所以農業部才會補助他一筆錢讓他去採購是\n\n11\n00:03:37,728 --> 00:04:03,709\n所以你先前就要跟他講清楚啊我們在採購的時候比如說要符合採購法規範你但可以不用公開不用符合採購法但是你其他運費冷鏈你要符合採購法你連這一點事情你們都無法督導還要事後說你來跟我請款的時候我少給一點那我就覺得非常奇怪續產會不是大部分資金來源都是農業部嗎那這也都是人民的納稅錢啊你看他少請的他如果虧本的話最後還不是很多時候農業部也是要補助給他\n\n12\n00:04:04,449 --> 00:04:23,808\n所以為什麽不能事先解決一定要事後這個事情啪啪之後然後才要說喔那這個事情已經被外界知道了所以呢這個補助我們要減一半不過我想啊這樣農業部的態度非常消極欸這個部分就是相關的這些補助案本身他就部長我只是想問你啦接下來還會不會發生一樣的狀況\n\n13\n00:04:24,989 --> 00:04:53,329\n就是說你透過續產會要解決國內的某一個農產品稀缺的問題然後一樣讓他先去買然後他不合法之後呢你再叫他追繳所以未來還會發生一樣狀況我想不是說不合法以後才去追繳沒有符合採購法就是不合法我開始剛才有跟其他委員講這個是續產會本身在這個雞蛋的採購過程中的倉儲他們是誤解的以為是他是跟著雞蛋一起一條包裝的所以後來他們了解\n\n14\n00:04:54,110 --> 00:05:09,690\n部長,理論上來講續產會跟你的關係非常密切嘛續產會董事長是林聰賢嘛以前是農業部嘛應該也是官派的嘛所以密切一個單位結果會讓他誤解那農業部都完全沒責任一部就是說沒關係我就少給你一點錢好像所有責任都是續產會\n\n15\n00:05:11,773 --> 00:05:31,648\n應該不是這樣吧部長農業部對於去產會完全沒有任何督導跟管理的責任我們負有督導的責任是嘛所以我說相關的有很多的行政的疏失當然就是過去的事情要追究要追究我現在講的時候那未來勒因為我現在跟部長詢答的感覺是說都覺得你沒有錯嘛都覺得說那是去產會的事情嘛\n\n16\n00:05:32,228 --> 00:05:46,512\n我講政府部門就要依法行事那相關的規範就要符合政府採購法這是一個大原則你若違反的話若你是惡意的故意的沒有問題是說未來農業部對於續產會是不是還是一樣的放任是不是我們絕對不會我們已經在加強續產會的管理了就是說續產會採購的時候又誤解了然後又沒有透過公開採購政府採購法又繞過了然後\n\n17\n00:05:59,215 --> 00:06:27,438\n然後農業部再說那我少給你補助這樣無止境循環會發生這樣的狀況嗎你有沒有把握說未來跟巨產會的監督到位我們一定會更積極的去監督這個那相關的成功率有沒有能不能不上次另外一回事喔因為現在檢調在查我就不臆測但是我現在在問農業部的你的官方行政責任嘛第二有關於超市跟量財的關係到底查清楚沒有為什麼巨產會是跟量財簽約付錢付給超市為什麼\n\n18\n00:06:29,032 --> 00:06:48,095\n這個亮彩跟超思他本身的司法人的關係我們行政協沒辦法去理我問你們行政調查也可以知道阿行政調查沒辦法去調查他們司法人的包括委任跟債權的關係所以我們已經請掉你問一下續產會你都沒辦法問喔你都沒辦法問續產會說為什麼你是跟亮彩簽約他還是付錢給超思這沒辦法問嗎我告訴你我們不會聽信任的一方的齁\n\n19\n00:06:49,036 --> 00:06:49,497\n所以農業部沒有問的意思嗎?\n\n20\n00:07:05,299 --> 00:07:21,712\n所以你連查都沒有查嗎?你連到現在為止大家外界關心的操司跟量產關係你都還沒有去釐清是這個意思嗎?我們推給司法嘛我告訴你我覺得這個是一個必須要釐清的但是以政務部門的行政權沒有辦法去釐清這件事情所以我們剛剛我前面在跟你講的是說農業部和續產會的關係你要督導續產會在採購要符合一定的規定嘛\n\n21\n00:07:29,378 --> 00:07:50,273\n基本上你跟A廠商簽約卻付款給B廠商這非常罕見的結果你正在一個督導的責任你連問說為什麼他是這樣的行為你都說那跟你沒關係推給司法那你農業部到底要怎麼去怎麼去管理續船會的待遇我覺得委員你齁要把事情分清楚齁我剛才說的司法人的關係是量財跟超市之間的無法的沒關係\n\n22\n00:07:51,354 --> 00:08:16,837\n當然可以處理嘛因為你是管理單位嘛你是督導單位嘛你要不要做而已嘛我真不相信農業部每年補助那麼多錢給續產會你連問這個你都不能問我真的不相信啦我真的不相信啦我問不出答案沒有關係但所有人都看得出來農業部對於續產會就是這個態度嘛連大家這麼關心的超市跟量產的關係你都說那是司法關係跟我們沒有關係\n\n23\n00:08:19,620 --> 00:08:34,014\n我們希望說續產會因為既然這個問題大家關心你就要去查我希望是這樣那國人也希望知道真相農業部不查我覺得是失職謝謝好謝謝大家都希望知道真相\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n477\t1498\t請葉元之委員請做詢談。我們再請陳部長。\n18181\t44086\t部長首先我是覺得對於農業部在淡的這個產銷管理我真的覺得非常奇怪今年7月1號開始又要跟養雞協會合作又要開始殺老母雞去年的時候說要補助老母雞說進口種雞那時候很多農民跟農業部講說進口太多就會造成產能過剩那農業部說沒關係先進再講然後結果進了之後我們農業部又要再花錢去殺老母雞\n45202\t73963\t那你會不會又會造成說到時候彈又缺彈我不知道部長能不能承諾不會再造成缺彈狀況我跟委員說明就是整個彈機場的產業鏈裡面老母機的淘汰是一個彈籠本來在這做的那我們是提供誘因讓他加速這個老母機的淘汰去年鼓勵人家多進然後今年又對叫他加速去殺然後進口彈去年的話一直進一堆進了一堆之後再花錢把它銷毀\n75064\t100069\t我跟委員說明,就是您剛才... 不,不打沒關係啦你如果認為沒有錯的話我是希望你可以檢討一下因為這個產銷問題都是花人民的納稅錢把人民的納稅錢一點一都浪費掉然後又會造成缺氮我希望農業部可以把這個氮的問題你們仔細思考一下怎麼從源頭把它管理不是頭都一頭腳痛一腳啦但我今天想要問還是一向我想要問這個超市的問題,續產會的問題\n101969\t105394\t因為農業部當時大家在問說續展會這個採購有沒有問題農業部當初是說沒問題欸你們第一時間是說沒問題欸你們說因為續展會是用自有資金購買財物所以沒問題然後甚至於還推說續展會我們調查不到\n118170\t134248\t結果現在被大家發現說不是沒問題包括你們自己剛剛你跟其他委員的詢答你都承認嘛在冷鏈還有運費這一塊他們是沒有用採購法所以是違法了嘛你現在又有問題我不知道說到底農業部跟續產會之間關係是什麼\n136010\t147224\t因為續產會你未來會跟他不會跟他拒絕往來嗎你還會透過很多補助給他去採購很多農產品嗎那你到底有沒有在監督他你到底是什麼管制還有一開始第一時間為什麼是推脫\n149454\t162250\t我跟委員說明就是續展會跟農業部的關係是我們農業部是它的督導單位所以續展會的所有的行政方面的部分我們農業部都有權利去做相關的調查你們農業部一開始面對外界質疑說續展會是用自有資金買\n168158\t189538\t這是兩件事情齁就是我都從續產會本身的管理的部分農業部是負責督導的我們有權利去做相關的行政的一個查核這個部分是是沒問題的那第二個部分就是續產會如果有一個產交條件他用自有資金先用了以後跟農業跟農業部請款的時候那就要付\n189858\t216087\t有一部分是符合政府採購法就要政府採購法不符合政府採購法的部分我們就會50%以下那另外一類就是111年這一類他是在年度先核計劃年度先核計劃的時候他如果後續沒有照相關的規範的時候那不符合規範的我們錢都會收回來當然嘛可是你這個就是後見之明沒有以理論上來講你現在續產會是來解決國內大家缺氮的問題所以農業部才會補助他一筆錢讓他去採購是\n217728\t243709\t所以你先前就要跟他講清楚啊我們在採購的時候比如說要符合採購法規範你但可以不用公開不用符合採購法但是你其他運費冷鏈你要符合採購法你連這一點事情你們都無法督導還要事後說你來跟我請款的時候我少給一點那我就覺得非常奇怪續產會不是大部分資金來源都是農業部嗎那這也都是人民的納稅錢啊你看他少請的他如果虧本的話最後還不是很多時候農業部也是要補助給他\n244449\t263808\t所以為什麽不能事先解決一定要事後這個事情啪啪之後然後才要說喔那這個事情已經被外界知道了所以呢這個補助我們要減一半不過我想啊這樣農業部的態度非常消極欸這個部分就是相關的這些補助案本身他就部長我只是想問你啦接下來還會不會發生一樣的狀況\n264989\t293329\t就是說你透過續產會要解決國內的某一個農產品稀缺的問題然後一樣讓他先去買然後他不合法之後呢你再叫他追繳所以未來還會發生一樣狀況我想不是說不合法以後才去追繳沒有符合採購法就是不合法我開始剛才有跟其他委員講這個是續產會本身在這個雞蛋的採購過程中的倉儲他們是誤解的以為是他是跟著雞蛋一起一條包裝的所以後來他們了解\n294110\t309690\t部長,理論上來講續產會跟你的關係非常密切嘛續產會董事長是林聰賢嘛以前是農業部嘛應該也是官派的嘛所以密切一個單位結果會讓他誤解那農業部都完全沒責任一部就是說沒關係我就少給你一點錢好像所有責任都是續產會\n311773\t331648\t應該不是這樣吧部長 農業部對於去產會完全沒有任何督導跟管理的責任我們負有督導的責任 是嘛 所以我說相關的有很多的行政的疏失當然就是過去的事情要追究要追究 我現在講的時候那未來勒因為我現在跟部長詢答的感覺是說 都覺得你沒有錯嘛 都覺得說那是去產會的事情嘛\n332228\t346512\t我講政府部門就要依法行事那相關的規範就要符合政府採購法這是一個大原則你若違反的話若你是惡意的故意的沒有問題是說未來農業部對於續產會是不是還是一樣的放任是不是我們絕對不會我們已經在加強續產會的管理了就是說續產會採購的時候又誤解了然後又沒有透過公開採購政府採購法又繞過了然後\n359215\t387438\t然後農業部再說那我少給你補助 這樣無止境循環會發生這樣的狀況嗎你有沒有把握說未來跟巨產會的監督到位我們一定會更積極的去監督這個那相關的成功率有沒有能不能不上次另外一回事喔因為現在檢調在查我就不臆測但是我現在在問農業部的你的官方行政責任嘛第二有關於超市跟量財的關係到底查清楚沒有為什麼巨產會是跟量財簽約付錢付給超市為什麼\n389032\t408095\t這個亮彩跟超思他本身的司法人的關係我們行政協沒辦法去理我問你們行政調查也可以知道阿行政調查沒辦法去調查他們司法人的包括委任跟債權的關係所以我們已經請掉你問一下續產會你都沒辦法問喔你都沒辦法問續產會說為什麼你是跟亮彩簽約他還是付錢給超思這沒辦法問嗎我告訴你我們不會聽信任的一方的齁\n409036\t409497\t所以農業部沒有問的意思嗎?\n425299\t441712\t所以你連查都沒有查嗎?你連到現在為止大家外界關心的操司跟量產關係你都還沒有去釐清是這個意思嗎?我們推給司法嘛我告訴你我覺得這個是一個必須要釐清的但是以政務部門的行政權沒有辦法去釐清這件事情所以我們剛剛我前面在跟你講的是說農業部和續產會的關係你要督導續產會在採購要符合一定的規定嘛\n449378\t470273\t基本上你跟A廠商簽約卻付款給B廠商這非常罕見的結果你正在一個督導的責任你連問說為什麼他是這樣的行為你都說那跟你沒關係推給司法那你農業部到底要怎麼去怎麼去管理續船會的待遇我覺得委員你齁要把事情分清楚齁我剛才說的司法人的關係是量財跟超市之間的無法的沒關係\n471354\t496837\t當然可以處理嘛因為你是管理單位嘛你是督導單位嘛你要不要做而已嘛我真不相信農業部每年補助那麼多錢給續產會你連問這個你都不能問我真的不相信啦我真的不相信啦我問不出答案沒有關係但所有人都看得出來農業部對於續產會就是這個態度嘛連大家這麼關心的超市跟量產的關係你都說那是司法關係跟我們沒有關係\n499620\t514014\t我們希望說續產會因為既然這個問題大家關心你就要去查我希望是這樣那國人也希望知道真相農業部不查我覺得是失職謝謝好 謝謝大家都希望知道真相\n","txt":"請葉元之委員請做詢談。我們再請陳部長。\n部長首先我是覺得對於農業部在淡的這個產銷管理我真的覺得非常奇怪今年7月1號開始又要跟養雞協會合作又要開始殺老母雞去年的時候說要補助老母雞說進口種雞那時候很多農民跟農業部講說進口太多就會造成產能過剩那農業部說沒關係先進再講然後結果進了之後我們農業部又要再花錢去殺老母雞\n那你會不會又會造成說到時候彈又缺彈我不知道部長能不能承諾不會再造成缺彈狀況我跟委員說明就是整個彈機場的產業鏈裡面老母機的淘汰是一個彈籠本來在這做的那我們是提供誘因讓他加速這個老母機的淘汰去年鼓勵人家多進然後今年又對叫他加速去殺然後進口彈去年的話一直進一堆進了一堆之後再花錢把它銷毀\n我跟委員說明,就是您剛才... 不,不打沒關係啦你如果認為沒有錯的話我是希望你可以檢討一下因為這個產銷問題都是花人民的納稅錢把人民的納稅錢一點一都浪費掉然後又會造成缺氮我希望農業部可以把這個氮的問題你們仔細思考一下怎麼從源頭把它管理不是頭都一頭腳痛一腳啦但我今天想要問還是一向我想要問這個超市的問題,續產會的問題\n因為農業部當時大家在問說續展會這個採購有沒有問題農業部當初是說沒問題欸你們第一時間是說沒問題欸你們說因為續展會是用自有資金購買財物所以沒問題然後甚至於還推說續展會我們調查不到\n結果現在被大家發現說不是沒問題包括你們自己剛剛你跟其他委員的詢答你都承認嘛在冷鏈還有運費這一塊他們是沒有用採購法所以是違法了嘛你現在又有問題我不知道說到底農業部跟續產會之間關係是什麼\n因為續產會你未來會跟他不會跟他拒絕往來嗎你還會透過很多補助給他去採購很多農產品嗎那你到底有沒有在監督他你到底是什麼管制還有一開始第一時間為什麼是推脫\n我跟委員說明就是續展會跟農業部的關係是我們農業部是它的督導單位所以續展會的所有的行政方面的部分我們農業部都有權利去做相關的調查你們農業部一開始面對外界質疑說續展會是用自有資金買\n這是兩件事情齁就是我都從續產會本身的管理的部分農業部是負責督導的我們有權利去做相關的行政的一個查核這個部分是是沒問題的那第二個部分就是續產會如果有一個產交條件他用自有資金先用了以後跟農業跟農業部請款的時候那就要付\n有一部分是符合政府採購法就要政府採購法不符合政府採購法的部分我們就會50%以下那另外一類就是111年這一類他是在年度先核計劃年度先核計劃的時候他如果後續沒有照相關的規範的時候那不符合規範的我們錢都會收回來當然嘛可是你這個就是後見之明沒有以理論上來講你現在續產會是來解決國內大家缺氮的問題所以農業部才會補助他一筆錢讓他去採購是\n所以你先前就要跟他講清楚啊我們在採購的時候比如說要符合採購法規範你但可以不用公開不用符合採購法但是你其他運費冷鏈你要符合採購法你連這一點事情你們都無法督導還要事後說你來跟我請款的時候我少給一點那我就覺得非常奇怪續產會不是大部分資金來源都是農業部嗎那這也都是人民的納稅錢啊你看他少請的他如果虧本的話最後還不是很多時候農業部也是要補助給他\n所以為什麽不能事先解決一定要事後這個事情啪啪之後然後才要說喔那這個事情已經被外界知道了所以呢這個補助我們要減一半不過我想啊這樣農業部的態度非常消極欸這個部分就是相關的這些補助案本身他就部長我只是想問你啦接下來還會不會發生一樣的狀況\n就是說你透過續產會要解決國內的某一個農產品稀缺的問題然後一樣讓他先去買然後他不合法之後呢你再叫他追繳所以未來還會發生一樣狀況我想不是說不合法以後才去追繳沒有符合採購法就是不合法我開始剛才有跟其他委員講這個是續產會本身在這個雞蛋的採購過程中的倉儲他們是誤解的以為是他是跟著雞蛋一起一條包裝的所以後來他們了解\n部長,理論上來講續產會跟你的關係非常密切嘛續產會董事長是林聰賢嘛以前是農業部嘛應該也是官派的嘛所以密切一個單位結果會讓他誤解那農業部都完全沒責任一部就是說沒關係我就少給你一點錢好像所有責任都是續產會\n應該不是這樣吧部長 農業部對於去產會完全沒有任何督導跟管理的責任我們負有督導的責任 是嘛 所以我說相關的有很多的行政的疏失當然就是過去的事情要追究要追究 我現在講的時候那未來勒因為我現在跟部長詢答的感覺是說 都覺得你沒有錯嘛 都覺得說那是去產會的事情嘛\n我講政府部門就要依法行事那相關的規範就要符合政府採購法這是一個大原則你若違反的話若你是惡意的故意的沒有問題是說未來農業部對於續產會是不是還是一樣的放任是不是我們絕對不會我們已經在加強續產會的管理了就是說續產會採購的時候又誤解了然後又沒有透過公開採購政府採購法又繞過了然後\n然後農業部再說那我少給你補助 這樣無止境循環會發生這樣的狀況嗎你有沒有把握說未來跟巨產會的監督到位我們一定會更積極的去監督這個那相關的成功率有沒有能不能不上次另外一回事喔因為現在檢調在查我就不臆測但是我現在在問農業部的你的官方行政責任嘛第二有關於超市跟量財的關係到底查清楚沒有為什麼巨產會是跟量財簽約付錢付給超市為什麼\n這個亮彩跟超思他本身的司法人的關係我們行政協沒辦法去理我問你們行政調查也可以知道阿行政調查沒辦法去調查他們司法人的包括委任跟債權的關係所以我們已經請掉你問一下續產會你都沒辦法問喔你都沒辦法問續產會說為什麼你是跟亮彩簽約他還是付錢給超思這沒辦法問嗎我告訴你我們不會聽信任的一方的齁\n所以農業部沒有問的意思嗎?\n所以你連查都沒有查嗎?你連到現在為止大家外界關心的操司跟量產關係你都還沒有去釐清是這個意思嗎?我們推給司法嘛我告訴你我覺得這個是一個必須要釐清的但是以政務部門的行政權沒有辦法去釐清這件事情所以我們剛剛我前面在跟你講的是說農業部和續產會的關係你要督導續產會在採購要符合一定的規定嘛\n基本上你跟A廠商簽約卻付款給B廠商這非常罕見的結果你正在一個督導的責任你連問說為什麼他是這樣的行為你都說那跟你沒關係推給司法那你農業部到底要怎麼去怎麼去管理續船會的待遇我覺得委員你齁要把事情分清楚齁我剛才說的司法人的關係是量財跟超市之間的無法的沒關係\n當然可以處理嘛因為你是管理單位嘛你是督導單位嘛你要不要做而已嘛我真不相信農業部每年補助那麼多錢給續產會你連問這個你都不能問我真的不相信啦我真的不相信啦我問不出答案沒有關係但所有人都看得出來農業部對於續產會就是這個態度嘛連大家這麼關心的超市跟量產的關係你都說那是司法關係跟我們沒有關係\n我們希望說續產會因為既然這個問題大家關心你就要去查我希望是這樣那國人也希望知道真相農業部不查我覺得是失職謝謝好 謝謝大家都希望知道真相\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.477 --> 00:01.498\n請葉元之委員請做詢談。我們再請陳部長。\n\n00:18.181 --> 00:44.086\n部長首先我是覺得對於農業部在淡的這個產銷管理我真的覺得非常奇怪今年7月1號開始又要跟養雞協會合作又要開始殺老母雞去年的時候說要補助老母雞說進口種雞那時候很多農民跟農業部講說進口太多就會造成產能過剩那農業部說沒關係先進再講然後結果進了之後我們農業部又要再花錢去殺老母雞\n\n00:45.202 --> 01:13.963\n那你會不會又會造成說到時候彈又缺彈我不知道部長能不能承諾不會再造成缺彈狀況我跟委員說明就是整個彈機場的產業鏈裡面老母機的淘汰是一個彈籠本來在這做的那我們是提供誘因讓他加速這個老母機的淘汰去年鼓勵人家多進然後今年又對叫他加速去殺然後進口彈去年的話一直進一堆進了一堆之後再花錢把它銷毀\n\n01:15.064 --> 01:40.069\n我跟委員說明,就是您剛才...不,不打沒關係啦你如果認為沒有錯的話我是希望你可以檢討一下因為這個產銷問題都是花人民的納稅錢把人民的納稅錢一點一都浪費掉然後又會造成缺氮我希望農業部可以把這個氮的問題你們仔細思考一下怎麼從源頭把它管理不是頭都一頭腳痛一腳啦但我今天想要問還是一向我想要問這個超市的問題,續產會的問題\n\n01:41.969 --> 01:45.394\n因為農業部當時大家在問說續展會這個採購有沒有問題農業部當初是說沒問題欸你們第一時間是說沒問題欸你們說因為續展會是用自有資金購買財物所以沒問題然後甚至於還推說續展會我們調查不到\n\n01:58.170 --> 02:14.248\n結果現在被大家發現說不是沒問題包括你們自己剛剛你跟其他委員的詢答你都承認嘛在冷鏈還有運費這一塊他們是沒有用採購法所以是違法了嘛你現在又有問題我不知道說到底農業部跟續產會之間關係是什麼\n\n02:16.010 --> 02:27.224\n因為續產會你未來會跟他不會跟他拒絕往來嗎你還會透過很多補助給他去採購很多農產品嗎那你到底有沒有在監督他你到底是什麼管制還有一開始第一時間為什麼是推脫\n\n02:29.454 --> 02:42.250\n我跟委員說明就是續展會跟農業部的關係是我們農業部是它的督導單位所以續展會的所有的行政方面的部分我們農業部都有權利去做相關的調查你們農業部一開始面對外界質疑說續展會是用自有資金買\n\n02:48.158 --> 03:09.538\n這是兩件事情齁就是我都從續產會本身的管理的部分農業部是負責督導的我們有權利去做相關的行政的一個查核這個部分是是沒問題的那第二個部分就是續產會如果有一個產交條件他用自有資金先用了以後跟農業跟農業部請款的時候那就要付\n\n03:09.858 --> 03:36.087\n有一部分是符合政府採購法就要政府採購法不符合政府採購法的部分我們就會50%以下那另外一類就是111年這一類他是在年度先核計劃年度先核計劃的時候他如果後續沒有照相關的規範的時候那不符合規範的我們錢都會收回來當然嘛可是你這個就是後見之明沒有以理論上來講你現在續產會是來解決國內大家缺氮的問題所以農業部才會補助他一筆錢讓他去採購是\n\n03:37.728 --> 04:03.709\n所以你先前就要跟他講清楚啊我們在採購的時候比如說要符合採購法規範你但可以不用公開不用符合採購法但是你其他運費冷鏈你要符合採購法你連這一點事情你們都無法督導還要事後說你來跟我請款的時候我少給一點那我就覺得非常奇怪續產會不是大部分資金來源都是農業部嗎那這也都是人民的納稅錢啊你看他少請的他如果虧本的話最後還不是很多時候農業部也是要補助給他\n\n04:04.449 --> 04:23.808\n所以為什麽不能事先解決一定要事後這個事情啪啪之後然後才要說喔那這個事情已經被外界知道了所以呢這個補助我們要減一半不過我想啊這樣農業部的態度非常消極欸這個部分就是相關的這些補助案本身他就部長我只是想問你啦接下來還會不會發生一樣的狀況\n\n04:24.989 --> 04:53.329\n就是說你透過續產會要解決國內的某一個農產品稀缺的問題然後一樣讓他先去買然後他不合法之後呢你再叫他追繳所以未來還會發生一樣狀況我想不是說不合法以後才去追繳沒有符合採購法就是不合法我開始剛才有跟其他委員講這個是續產會本身在這個雞蛋的採購過程中的倉儲他們是誤解的以為是他是跟著雞蛋一起一條包裝的所以後來他們了解\n\n04:54.110 --> 05:09.690\n部長,理論上來講續產會跟你的關係非常密切嘛續產會董事長是林聰賢嘛以前是農業部嘛應該也是官派的嘛所以密切一個單位結果會讓他誤解那農業部都完全沒責任一部就是說沒關係我就少給你一點錢好像所有責任都是續產會\n\n05:11.773 --> 05:31.648\n應該不是這樣吧部長農業部對於去產會完全沒有任何督導跟管理的責任我們負有督導的責任是嘛所以我說相關的有很多的行政的疏失當然就是過去的事情要追究要追究我現在講的時候那未來勒因為我現在跟部長詢答的感覺是說都覺得你沒有錯嘛都覺得說那是去產會的事情嘛\n\n05:32.228 --> 05:46.512\n我講政府部門就要依法行事那相關的規範就要符合政府採購法這是一個大原則你若違反的話若你是惡意的故意的沒有問題是說未來農業部對於續產會是不是還是一樣的放任是不是我們絕對不會我們已經在加強續產會的管理了就是說續產會採購的時候又誤解了然後又沒有透過公開採購政府採購法又繞過了然後\n\n05:59.215 --> 06:27.438\n然後農業部再說那我少給你補助這樣無止境循環會發生這樣的狀況嗎你有沒有把握說未來跟巨產會的監督到位我們一定會更積極的去監督這個那相關的成功率有沒有能不能不上次另外一回事喔因為現在檢調在查我就不臆測但是我現在在問農業部的你的官方行政責任嘛第二有關於超市跟量財的關係到底查清楚沒有為什麼巨產會是跟量財簽約付錢付給超市為什麼\n\n06:29.032 --> 06:48.095\n這個亮彩跟超思他本身的司法人的關係我們行政協沒辦法去理我問你們行政調查也可以知道阿行政調查沒辦法去調查他們司法人的包括委任跟債權的關係所以我們已經請掉你問一下續產會你都沒辦法問喔你都沒辦法問續產會說為什麼你是跟亮彩簽約他還是付錢給超思這沒辦法問嗎我告訴你我們不會聽信任的一方的齁\n\n06:49.036 --> 06:49.497\n所以農業部沒有問的意思嗎?\n\n07:05.299 --> 07:21.712\n所以你連查都沒有查嗎?你連到現在為止大家外界關心的操司跟量產關係你都還沒有去釐清是這個意思嗎?我們推給司法嘛我告訴你我覺得這個是一個必須要釐清的但是以政務部門的行政權沒有辦法去釐清這件事情所以我們剛剛我前面在跟你講的是說農業部和續產會的關係你要督導續產會在採購要符合一定的規定嘛\n\n07:29.378 --> 07:50.273\n基本上你跟A廠商簽約卻付款給B廠商這非常罕見的結果你正在一個督導的責任你連問說為什麼他是這樣的行為你都說那跟你沒關係推給司法那你農業部到底要怎麼去怎麼去管理續船會的待遇我覺得委員你齁要把事情分清楚齁我剛才說的司法人的關係是量財跟超市之間的無法的沒關係\n\n07:51.354 --> 08:16.837\n當然可以處理嘛因為你是管理單位嘛你是督導單位嘛你要不要做而已嘛我真不相信農業部每年補助那麼多錢給續產會你連問這個你都不能問我真的不相信啦我真的不相信啦我問不出答案沒有關係但所有人都看得出來農業部對於續產會就是這個態度嘛連大家這麼關心的超市跟量產的關係你都說那是司法關係跟我們沒有關係\n\n08:19.620 --> 08:34.014\n我們希望說續產會因為既然這個問題大家關心你就要去查我希望是這樣那國人也希望知道真相農業部不查我覺得是失職謝謝好謝謝大家都希望知道真相\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.477,"end":1.498,"text":"請葉元之委員請做詢談。我們再請陳部長。"},{"start":18.181,"end":44.086,"text":"部長首先我是覺得對於農業部在淡的這個產銷管理我真的覺得非常奇怪今年7月1號開始又要跟養雞協會合作又要開始殺老母雞去年的時候說要補助老母雞說進口種雞那時候很多農民跟農業部講說進口太多就會造成產能過剩那農業部說沒關係先進再講然後結果進了之後我們農業部又要再花錢去殺老母雞"},{"start":45.202,"end":73.963,"text":"那你會不會又會造成說到時候彈又缺彈我不知道部長能不能承諾不會再造成缺彈狀況我跟委員說明就是整個彈機場的產業鏈裡面老母機的淘汰是一個彈籠本來在這做的那我們是提供誘因讓他加速這個老母機的淘汰去年鼓勵人家多進然後今年又對叫他加速去殺然後進口彈去年的話一直進一堆進了一堆之後再花錢把它銷毀"},{"start":75.064,"end":100.069,"text":"我跟委員說明,就是您剛才... 不,不打沒關係啦你如果認為沒有錯的話我是希望你可以檢討一下因為這個產銷問題都是花人民的納稅錢把人民的納稅錢一點一都浪費掉然後又會造成缺氮我希望農業部可以把這個氮的問題你們仔細思考一下怎麼從源頭把它管理不是頭都一頭腳痛一腳啦但我今天想要問還是一向我想要問這個超市的問題,續產會的問題"},{"start":101.969,"end":105.394,"text":"因為農業部當時大家在問說續展會這個採購有沒有問題農業部當初是說沒問題欸你們第一時間是說沒問題欸你們說因為續展會是用自有資金購買財物所以沒問題然後甚至於還推說續展會我們調查不到"},{"start":118.17,"end":134.248,"text":"結果現在被大家發現說不是沒問題包括你們自己剛剛你跟其他委員的詢答你都承認嘛在冷鏈還有運費這一塊他們是沒有用採購法所以是違法了嘛你現在又有問題我不知道說到底農業部跟續產會之間關係是什麼"},{"start":136.01,"end":147.224,"text":"因為續產會你未來會跟他不會跟他拒絕往來嗎你還會透過很多補助給他去採購很多農產品嗎那你到底有沒有在監督他你到底是什麼管制還有一開始第一時間為什麼是推脫"},{"start":149.454,"end":162.25,"text":"我跟委員說明就是續展會跟農業部的關係是我們農業部是它的督導單位所以續展會的所有的行政方面的部分我們農業部都有權利去做相關的調查你們農業部一開始面對外界質疑說續展會是用自有資金買"},{"start":168.158,"end":189.538,"text":"這是兩件事情齁就是我都從續產會本身的管理的部分農業部是負責督導的我們有權利去做相關的行政的一個查核這個部分是是沒問題的那第二個部分就是續產會如果有一個產交條件他用自有資金先用了以後跟農業跟農業部請款的時候那就要付"},{"start":189.858,"end":216.087,"text":"有一部分是符合政府採購法就要政府採購法不符合政府採購法的部分我們就會50%以下那另外一類就是111年這一類他是在年度先核計劃年度先核計劃的時候他如果後續沒有照相關的規範的時候那不符合規範的我們錢都會收回來當然嘛可是你這個就是後見之明沒有以理論上來講你現在續產會是來解決國內大家缺氮的問題所以農業部才會補助他一筆錢讓他去採購是"},{"start":217.728,"end":243.709,"text":"所以你先前就要跟他講清楚啊我們在採購的時候比如說要符合採購法規範你但可以不用公開不用符合採購法但是你其他運費冷鏈你要符合採購法你連這一點事情你們都無法督導還要事後說你來跟我請款的時候我少給一點那我就覺得非常奇怪續產會不是大部分資金來源都是農業部嗎那這也都是人民的納稅錢啊你看他少請的他如果虧本的話最後還不是很多時候農業部也是要補助給他"},{"start":244.449,"end":263.808,"text":"所以為什麽不能事先解決一定要事後這個事情啪啪之後然後才要說喔那這個事情已經被外界知道了所以呢這個補助我們要減一半不過我想啊這樣農業部的態度非常消極欸這個部分就是相關的這些補助案本身他就部長我只是想問你啦接下來還會不會發生一樣的狀況"},{"start":264.989,"end":293.329,"text":"就是說你透過續產會要解決國內的某一個農產品稀缺的問題然後一樣讓他先去買然後他不合法之後呢你再叫他追繳所以未來還會發生一樣狀況我想不是說不合法以後才去追繳沒有符合採購法就是不合法我開始剛才有跟其他委員講這個是續產會本身在這個雞蛋的採購過程中的倉儲他們是誤解的以為是他是跟著雞蛋一起一條包裝的所以後來他們了解"},{"start":294.11,"end":309.69,"text":"部長,理論上來講續產會跟你的關係非常密切嘛續產會董事長是林聰賢嘛以前是農業部嘛應該也是官派的嘛所以密切一個單位結果會讓他誤解那農業部都完全沒責任一部就是說沒關係我就少給你一點錢好像所有責任都是續產會"},{"start":311.773,"end":331.648,"text":"應該不是這樣吧部長 農業部對於去產會完全沒有任何督導跟管理的責任我們負有督導的責任 是嘛 所以我說相關的有很多的行政的疏失當然就是過去的事情要追究要追究 我現在講的時候那未來勒因為我現在跟部長詢答的感覺是說 都覺得你沒有錯嘛 都覺得說那是去產會的事情嘛"},{"start":332.228,"end":346.512,"text":"我講政府部門就要依法行事那相關的規範就要符合政府採購法這是一個大原則你若違反的話若你是惡意的故意的沒有問題是說未來農業部對於續產會是不是還是一樣的放任是不是我們絕對不會我們已經在加強續產會的管理了就是說續產會採購的時候又誤解了然後又沒有透過公開採購政府採購法又繞過了然後"},{"start":359.215,"end":387.438,"text":"然後農業部再說那我少給你補助 這樣無止境循環會發生這樣的狀況嗎你有沒有把握說未來跟巨產會的監督到位我們一定會更積極的去監督這個那相關的成功率有沒有能不能不上次另外一回事喔因為現在檢調在查我就不臆測但是我現在在問農業部的你的官方行政責任嘛第二有關於超市跟量財的關係到底查清楚沒有為什麼巨產會是跟量財簽約付錢付給超市為什麼"},{"start":389.032,"end":408.095,"text":"這個亮彩跟超思他本身的司法人的關係我們行政協沒辦法去理我問你們行政調查也可以知道阿行政調查沒辦法去調查他們司法人的包括委任跟債權的關係所以我們已經請掉你問一下續產會你都沒辦法問喔你都沒辦法問續產會說為什麼你是跟亮彩簽約他還是付錢給超思這沒辦法問嗎我告訴你我們不會聽信任的一方的齁"},{"start":409.036,"end":409.497,"text":"所以農業部沒有問的意思嗎?"},{"start":425.299,"end":441.712,"text":"所以你連查都沒有查嗎?你連到現在為止大家外界關心的操司跟量產關係你都還沒有去釐清是這個意思嗎?我們推給司法嘛我告訴你我覺得這個是一個必須要釐清的但是以政務部門的行政權沒有辦法去釐清這件事情所以我們剛剛我前面在跟你講的是說農業部和續產會的關係你要督導續產會在採購要符合一定的規定嘛"},{"start":449.378,"end":470.273,"text":"基本上你跟A廠商簽約卻付款給B廠商這非常罕見的結果你正在一個督導的責任你連問說為什麼他是這樣的行為你都說那跟你沒關係推給司法那你農業部到底要怎麼去怎麼去管理續船會的待遇我覺得委員你齁要把事情分清楚齁我剛才說的司法人的關係是量財跟超市之間的無法的沒關係"},{"start":471.354,"end":496.837,"text":"當然可以處理嘛因為你是管理單位嘛你是督導單位嘛你要不要做而已嘛我真不相信農業部每年補助那麼多錢給續產會你連問這個你都不能問我真的不相信啦我真的不相信啦我問不出答案沒有關係但所有人都看得出來農業部對於續產會就是這個態度嘛連大家這麼關心的超市跟量產的關係你都說那是司法關係跟我們沒有關係"},{"start":499.62,"end":514.014,"text":"我們希望說續產會因為既然這個問題大家關心你就要去查我希望是這樣那國人也希望知道真相農業部不查我覺得是失職謝謝好 謝謝大家都希望知道真相"}]}}}}