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technology，所以這算是society相關的交流事項，這一次在他們的政府方面，我們臺印的關係也是不斷的在加溫，所以我覺得這算是一個蠻重要的事項，希望以後外交部能夠也多多協助，因為畢竟昨天都不是外交部回答，都是勞動部在回答，他們能夠做一些勞動相關的社會影響力評估，這沒問題，但對於外交的那些評估，可能需要外交部的協助。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來就是今天的主題，關於聯合國相關的組織，當然我們最近爭取加入WHA，我們的國際支持也越來越高，它背後最主要的一個原因還是跟2758號有關，因為我在今天的專案報告裡面有看到，美國還有歐洲不斷的用2758號來幫我們做解釋，這個是因為我們在同盟關係之下，也是外交部的努力，專報裡面有提到一點，就是現在外交部也是要積極去反制，因為中國一直想要把2758號解釋成他們想要的樣貌，現在這個反制措施具體來講有哪一些？"],["林部長佳龍：當然除了美國做了法律的研究，我們怎麼樣去擴大宣傳，這次美國也跟第三方包括我們的邦交國也展開所謂的message campaign這樣的溝通，我想這個不只是由上而下，且是全面性。因為2758號決議其實被扭曲、誤用，這些事情很多國家都不知道，所以並沒有限制臺灣參加國際組織，或是說其他國家跟我們建交，這些都是開放的，因為它只處理了蔣介石政權的代表，它甚至沒有觸及到臺灣，所以臺灣到底能不能做什麼事情，這是開放的，各國基於主權都可以跟臺灣交往，國際組織也是一樣。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，這個是正面的論述，就是說我們要怎麼去告訴大家這個事實是什麼，然後我們的邦交國怎麼去幫我們講話，反過來中國他們會不斷的在各式各樣的場合，比如今年的香格里拉會議，他們一樣會通過臺灣主權的一些論述，他們每一次這種論述出來的時候，我們反擊的力道，當然我們跟盟友之間要選擇什麼時機去講2758號決議，這是一個，但另外一個就是每一次中國在誤用2758號的時候，我們除了能夠在社群媒體上面發聲明之外，有沒有可能讓比如我們跟盟友之間的聲明在時間點上跟這個更為切合？因為以中國目前來講，會做這些事情的時間點大概都是那幾個，所以我希望外交部在這件事情上面能夠更快速的去迎擊中國的論述。我昨天在跟國防部也有講到相關的事情，就是有時候一些投書的內容似是而非，國防部到底要怎麼在第一時間去做論述，怎麼讓人民知道，我覺得現在好像看起來是越來越重要了。"],["林部長佳龍：是，一方面除了美國以外，當然也影響很多友盟，比如G7的一些國家，另外美國其實在這次WHA上面也在反制中國對2758號決議的扭曲，所以這其實是作用力跟反作用力。另外，我特別跟很多來臺灣的外賓講，中共的法律戰事實上是為它的武力犯臺合理化取得一個法的基礎，這是法律戰，所以我們越是不去回應、去破解這2758號決議的話，他們越會把臺灣變成中國的內政，臺海變成中國的內海，所以大家一聽就覺得這不是單獨法律爭議的問題，這是中共在為武力併臺做法律基礎的準備，大家都會覺得這必須要我們一起來看怎麼樣去回應，所以不只是參加國際組織，凡涉及到臺海和平跟穩定的都會跟2758號決議有關。其實很多人不去了解2758號決議的內容，就像九二共識，很多人一聽覺得有共識很好啊，可是你去了解以後，1992年那時候就沒有什麼共識啊！是後來發明的，2000年的蘇起。所以我覺得不能夠讓他們塑造一個稻草人，然後所謂的2758號決議，我覺得2758號決議某種程度是中共虛構的七一共識，1971年，那九二共識就是1992年，又虛構了另外一個共識，他們用這樣的一個決議、共識來將武力犯臺合理化，就是把臺灣問題變成中國的內政，這個大家一聽就會知道，這個就不是單獨只是兩邊在那邊吵法律的問題，它是涉及到混合戰，為軍事犯臺奠定基礎。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，因為提到法律戰這一件事情，我們都是感同身受，而且非常重要的一點是，的確國際上很多的盟友對於法律戰（legal warfare）的概念並不是那麼清楚，但它偏偏寫在解放軍的教科書上，說這就是他們發動戰爭的一種方式，所以讓盟友理解法律戰的框架，我認為是非常重要的，而且這個所謂的不存在的協議，他們最近才跟菲律賓也弄了一個幽靈協議，就是對方到底簽協議的人在哪裡都不知道，但他宣稱有這個協議存在，一樣的事情一定也還會在臺灣發生。這剛好就切到下一個問題，剛好他們公布懲治臺獨的意見，臺獨分子可以處以死刑什麼等等之類，這一個可能跟陸委會比較相關，我在這邊很快速的問一下外交部，因為這個是廣泛的適用在他們所謂的臺獨分子，這些人有可能在海外，那在海外這些人，可能有些國家有一些引渡條例，雖然政治犯原則上是不引渡的，但是中國到底會做出什麼事情來，以及跟他友好的國家會做出什麼事情來，我們不敢擔保，所以就變成外交部這一次在這個意見出現之後，對於海外國人的告知，然後還有風險的評估，不知道開始了沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：是，我們有開過國安高層的會議，比如對於旅遊區、對於中國發布橙色警告，另外就是在海外，因為有涉及一些跟中國有簽訂司法互助跟引渡條約的國家，甚至其中有相當一部分有一中原則在建交公報裡面，過去甚至有一些國家對於刑事犯罪像詐騙進行引渡或遣返，這些就是我們特別要注意的，所以我們已經有訓令外館要去跟當地政府溝通，另外有任何的事態發生，我們的處置現在也都在進行，讓國人也提高警覺，然後不會讓中共的長臂管轄或跨境鎮壓傷害到國人。因為中共最近透過海警法，也不只是對臺灣，他們對於相當多的鄰近國家，都是以他們自己的法律在做國際上面的灰色地帶或混合戰，這個我們也要跟國際做好溝通，這不是單獨對臺灣。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。最後提醒一點，因為時間到了，就是希望趕快可以給海外的臺灣人一些指引，讓他們知道可能的風險，再來就是中國其實有一個做法，他們可能先用詐欺的方式或者任何其他的罪名先引渡，等到了中國之後再轉換罪名，把人變成政治犯，這種事情也蠻常見的，所以可能也必須告知國人這件事情。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：關於後面外館的問題，我相信今天也會有很多人問，我今天時間不夠了，那我就先講到這邊，謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"154379","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154379","tool":"pyannote","id":"154379-pyannote"},"job_id":"iKtSJqfBgPPzZXuF","queued_at":"2024-06-27 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\"我\", \"start\": 619.103, \"end\": 619.183, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 619.183, \"end\": 619.303, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 619.303, \"end\": 620.045, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 620.045, \"end\": 620.345, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 620.345, \"end\": 620.486, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 620.486, \"end\": 620.766, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 620.766, \"end\": 620.786, \"score\": 0.682}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,537 --> 00:00:03,039\n謝謝主席有請部長\n\n2\n00:00:16,788 --> 00:00:34,878\n委員長今天最主要是要問這個跟加入聯合國等等國際組織的一些問題那等一下也再問一下後面的一些相關的這個剛剛前面危險關係的事項那一開始呢這個因為昨天剛好在審這個也是跟我們國防外交聯席的這個台印的MOU\n\n3\n00:00:36,298 --> 00:00:36,499\n沈伯洋議員\n\n4\n00:00:51,488 --> 00:00:51,748\n有,那是不是\n\n5\n00:01:21,243 --> 00:01:46,232\n那這個部分當然因為本來是這個就是要應該講說是查照變成備查嘛那當然尊重立法院的質詢那後來也是審查完成之後也是准以備查所以這個部分我們跟勞動部也都有溝通對因為我昨天發現在這個質詢的場合裡面蠻多人他們並沒有特別的因為我畢竟不是在不是每個人都跟國防外交有關\n\n6\n00:01:46,972 --> 00:02:14,046\n所以不是每個人都關心就是談硬之間的關係但我認為這個因為談硬之間之前有講到3S什麼studentsociety還有scienceandtechnology所以這個是一個算是society相關的一個交流事項那這一次在他們的政府裡面我們談硬的關係也是不斷的在加溫所以我覺得這算是一個蠻重要的事項那希望以後外交部能夠也多多因為讓勞動部他們在回答的時候因為畢竟昨天都不是外交部回答都是勞動部在回答\n\n7\n00:02:14,366 --> 00:02:15,507\n關於聯合國相關的組織當然我們最近有爭取加入WHA還有這個\n\n8\n00:02:33,882 --> 00:02:34,703\n國際知識越來越高最主要背後的原因與2758有關因為美國\n\n9\n00:02:49,399 --> 00:03:08,493\n還有歐洲他們不斷地用2758號來幫我們做解釋這個是因為我們在同盟關係之下也是外交部的一個努力那因為專報裡面有提到一點就是現在外交部也是要積極要去反制因為中國一直想要去把2758號解釋解釋成他們想要的樣貌那這個反制的措施現在具體來講有哪一些\n\n10\n00:03:10,697 --> 00:03:37,195\n當然除了美國就是他們跟做了法律的研究這個是我們怎麼樣去擴大宣傳這一次我想美國也包括跟第三方包括我們的邦交國配方也在展開所謂的publicmessagingcampaign這樣的一個溝通我想這個不只是由上而下我想是全面性因為\n\n11\n00:03:38,976 --> 00:04:05,216\n這個二七五八的決議其實它被扭曲、誤用這件事情很多國家都不知道所以並沒有限制就台灣參加國際組織或是說其他國家跟我們建交這些都是開放因為它只處理了蔣介石政權的代表它甚至沒有去觸及到台灣所以這個台灣到底能不能做什麼事情這是開放的這是各國基於主權都可以來跟台灣交往國際組織也是一樣\n\n12\n00:04:07,117 --> 00:04:29,728\n謝謝部長這個是正面的論述就是說我們要怎麼去告訴大家這個事實是什麼然後我們的邦交國怎麼去幫我們講話但因為反過來就是像中國他們會不斷的去在各式各樣的場合比如說這一次的今年的香格里拉會議他們又一樣會有這些這個通過這個台灣主權的一些論述那他每一次這種論述出來的時候我們的反擊的力道\n\n13\n00:04:30,208 --> 00:04:52,069\n就是當然我們跟盟友之間要選擇什麼時機然後去講2758號決議這是一個但另外一個就是他每一次中國在誤用2758號的時候我們除了能夠在社群媒體上面發聲明之外有沒有可能讓比如說我們跟盟友之間的聲明能夠時間點跟這個更為切合因為中國目前來講會來做這些事情的時間點大概都是那幾個\n\n14\n00:04:53,050 --> 00:05:12,380\n所以我希望說外交部在這件事情上面我們能夠更快速的去迎擊這個中國的論述我昨天剛好在跟國防部相關的事情也有講到就是有時候一些投書裡面的內容似是而非那國防部到底要在第一時間然後要怎麼去做論述然後怎麼讓人民知道我覺得現在好像看起來是越來越重要\n\n15\n00:05:13,180 --> 00:05:41,821\n是一方面除了美國說以外當然也影響很多友盟當然比如G7一些國家另外美國其實在這次WHA上面他也是反制中國對2758的決意所以這個是就是說其實是作用力跟反作用力另外我特別跟很多來台灣我們的這些外賓都會講中共的法律戰他事實上是為他的武力犯台\n\n16\n00:05:42,884 --> 00:05:59,694\n在合理化取得一個所謂的法的基礎這是法律戰所以越是我們不去回應去破解這2758號決議的話他會以這個把台灣就是變成中國的內政台海變成中國的內海\n\n17\n00:06:00,154 --> 00:06:23,875\n所以大家一聽就覺得這不是單獨法律爭議的問題這是中共武力併台在做法律基礎的準備大家都會覺得說這個必須要我們一起來看怎麼樣去回應所以不只是參加國際組織而涉及到這個台海的和平跟穩定都會跟這個2758號決議會有關那2758號決議其實很多人不去了解內容就用九二共識\n\n18\n00:06:26,096 --> 00:06:46,208\n有共識很好可是你去了解92年那時候就沒有什麼共識是後來發明的2000年蘇起所以我覺得不能夠變成一個就是他做到一個稻草人然後就是有所謂的這個2758號決議我覺得2758號決議某種程度是所謂中共虛構的七一共識\n\n19\n00:06:47,930 --> 00:06:59,523\n1971年那九二共識就是1992年又虛構了另外一個共識他用這樣的一個決議啦共識來作為合理化他武力犯台就把台灣問題變成中國的內政這個大家會聽說\n\n20\n00:07:02,486 --> 00:07:08,852\n謝謝部長因為提到法律戰這件事情我們都是感同身受而且非常重要的一點是的確國際上很多的盟友對於法律戰這個legalwarfare的概念並不是那麼清楚\n\n21\n00:07:24,807 --> 00:07:42,707\n但他偏偏是寫在解放軍的教科書上面說這就是他們發動戰爭的一種方式所以讓盟友理解法律這樣的一個框架我認為是非常重要的而且這個所謂的這個不存在的協議他們最近才跟菲律賓也弄了一個幽靈協議就是對方到底簽協議的人在哪裡都不知道\n\n22\n00:07:43,067 --> 00:08:07,600\n他宣稱有這個協議的存在一樣的事情一定也會還會再對台灣發生但是這個剛好就切到下一個問題就是剛好他們公佈這個懲治台獨的意見然後這個台獨分子可以處以死刑啊什麼等等之類的那這個呢當然比較多可能是跟陸委會相關的不過這邊很快速的想要問一下外交部就是在於說因為他這個是廣泛的適用在他們所謂的台獨分子那這些人有可能在海外\n\n23\n00:08:08,300 --> 00:08:30,169\n在海外這些人可能有些國家他有一些引渡條例雖然政治犯原則上是不引渡的但是中國到底會做出什麼事情來以及跟他友好的國家會做出什麼事情來我們不敢擔保所以就變成說外交部這一次在這個意見出現之後對於海外的國人的這個告知然後還有風險的一個評估不知道開始了沒有\n\n24\n00:08:30,609 --> 00:08:55,695\n是,我們有做過國安高層的會議,比如說發布陳澈警戒、警告對於旅遊區、對於中國方面另外就是在海外因為有涉及到有一些跟中國有簽訂司法互助跟引渡條約的甚至裡面也有相當一部分有一中原則在建交公報裡面\n\n25\n00:08:56,175 --> 00:09:21,616\n那這個都是過去甚至有一些國家以所謂的對於刑事犯罪像詐騙那進行所謂的引渡或遣返那這些就是我們特別要注意所以我們已經有訓練外館要去跟當地政府溝通然後另外有任何的事態發生我們的處置我們現在也都在進行這方面那讓國人也提高警覺\n\n26\n00:09:22,617 --> 00:09:45,405\n然後不會讓中共的這個所謂的長臂管轄或者是跨境的鎮壓去傷害到國人因為這個問題是透過我想最近中共對像海警法也不只是對台灣他對於這個相當多的臨近的這些國家都是以他自己的法律在做國際上面的\n\n27\n00:09:46,385 --> 00:10:14,936\n這個就是說一個灰色地帶或混合戰那這個我們也是要跟國際要做好溝通這不是單獨對台灣好謝謝部長那最後提醒一點因為時間到了就是說希望趕快可以給海外的台灣人有一些指引讓他們知道可能的風險然後再來就是中國在其他形式他有一個做法就是他可能先用詐欺的方式或者任何的其他的罪名先引渡等到到了中國之後他再轉換罪名變成政治犯這種事情也會蠻常見的所以可能也必須告訴國人這件事情\n\n28\n00:10:15,717 --> 00:10:20,786\n關於後面外廣的問題我相信今天應該也很多人問了今天時間也不夠了那我就先講到這邊謝謝主席謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2537\t3039\t謝謝主席 有請部長\n16788\t34878\t委員長今天最主要是要問這個跟加入聯合國等等國際組織的一些問題那等一下也再問一下後面的一些相關的這個剛剛前面危險關係的事項那一開始呢這個因為昨天剛好在審這個也是跟我們國防外交聯席的這個台印的MOU\n36298\t36499\t沈伯洋議員\n51488\t51748\t有,那是不是\n81243\t106232\t那這個部分當然因為本來是這個就是要應該講說是查照變成備查嘛那當然尊重立法院的質詢那後來也是審查完成之後也是准以備查所以這個部分我們跟勞動部也都有溝通對因為我昨天發現在這個質詢的場合裡面蠻多人他們並沒有特別的因為我畢竟不是在不是每個人都跟國防外交有關\n106972\t134046\t所以不是每個人都關心就是談硬之間的關係但我認為這個因為談硬之間之前有講到3S什麼student society還有science and technology所以這個是一個算是society相關的一個交流事項那這一次在他們的政府裡面我們談硬的關係也是不斷的在加溫所以我覺得這算是一個蠻重要的事項那希望以後外交部能夠也多多因為讓勞動部他們在回答的時候因為畢竟昨天都不是外交部回答都是勞動部在回答\n134366\t135507\t關於聯合國相關的組織當然我們最近有爭取加入WHA還有這個\n153882\t154703\t國際知識越來越高最主要背後的原因與2758有關因為美國\n169399\t188493\t還有歐洲他們不斷地用2758號來幫我們做解釋這個是因為我們在同盟關係之下也是外交部的一個努力那因為專報裡面有提到一點就是現在外交部也是要積極要去反制因為中國一直想要去把2758號解釋解釋成他們想要的樣貌那這個反制的措施現在具體來講有哪一些\n190697\t217195\t當然除了美國就是他們跟做了法律的研究這個是我們怎麼樣去擴大宣傳這一次我想美國也包括跟第三方包括我們的邦交國配方也在展開所謂的public messaging campaign這樣的一個溝通我想這個不只是由上而下我想是全面性因為\n218976\t245216\t這個二七五八的決議其實它被扭曲、誤用這件事情很多國家都不知道所以並沒有限制就台灣參加國際組織或是說其他國家跟我們建交這些都是開放因為它只處理了蔣介石政權的代表它甚至沒有去觸及到台灣所以這個台灣到底能不能做什麼事情這是開放的這是各國基於主權都可以來跟台灣交往國際組織也是一樣\n247117\t269728\t謝謝部長這個是正面的論述就是說我們要怎麼去告訴大家這個事實是什麼然後我們的邦交國怎麼去幫我們講話但因為反過來就是像中國他們會不斷的去在各式各樣的場合比如說這一次的今年的香格里拉會議他們又一樣會有這些這個通過這個台灣主權的一些論述那他每一次這種論述出來的時候我們的反擊的力道\n270208\t292069\t就是當然我們跟盟友之間要選擇什麼時機然後去講2758號決議這是一個但另外一個就是他每一次中國在誤用2758號的時候我們除了能夠在社群媒體上面發聲明之外有沒有可能讓比如說我們跟盟友之間的聲明能夠時間點跟這個更為切合因為中國目前來講會來做這些事情的時間點大概都是那幾個\n293050\t312380\t所以我希望說外交部在這件事情上面我們能夠更快速的去迎擊這個中國的論述我昨天剛好在跟國防部相關的事情也有講到就是有時候一些投書裡面的內容似是而非那國防部到底要在第一時間然後要怎麼去做論述然後怎麼讓人民知道我覺得現在好像看起來是越來越重要\n313180\t341821\t是一方面除了美國說以外當然也影響很多友盟當然比如G7一些國家另外美國其實在這次WHA上面他也是反制中國對2758的決意所以這個是就是說其實是作用力跟反作用力另外我特別跟很多來台灣我們的這些外賓都會講中共的法律戰他事實上是為他的武力犯台\n342884\t359694\t在合理化取得一個所謂的法的基礎這是法律戰所以越是我們不去回應去破解這2758號決議的話他會以這個把台灣就是變成中國的內政台海變成中國的內海\n360154\t383875\t所以大家一聽就覺得這不是單獨法律爭議的問題這是中共武力併台在做法律基礎的準備大家都會覺得說這個必須要我們一起來看怎麼樣去回應所以不只是參加國際組織而涉及到這個台海的和平跟穩定都會跟這個2758號決議會有關那2758號決議其實很多人不去了解內容就用九二共識\n386096\t406208\t有共識很好可是你去了解92年那時候就沒有什麼共識是後來發明的2000年蘇起所以我覺得不能夠變成一個就是他做到一個稻草人然後就是有所謂的這個2758號決議我覺得2758號決議某種程度是所謂中共虛構的七一共識\n407930\t419523\t1971年那九二共識就是1992年又虛構了另外一個共識他用這樣的一個決議啦共識來作為合理化他武力犯台就把台灣問題變成中國的內政這個大家會聽說\n422486\t428852\t謝謝部長因為提到法律戰這件事情我們都是感同身受而且非常重要的一點是的確國際上很多的盟友對於法律戰這個legal warfare的概念並不是那麼清楚\n444807\t462707\t但他偏偏是寫在解放軍的教科書上面說這就是他們發動戰爭的一種方式所以讓盟友理解法律這樣的一個框架我認為是非常重要的而且這個所謂的這個不存在的協議他們最近才跟菲律賓也弄了一個幽靈協議就是對方到底簽協議的人在哪裡都不知道\n463067\t487600\t他宣稱有這個協議的存在一樣的事情一定也會還會再對台灣發生但是這個剛好就切到下一個問題就是剛好他們公佈這個懲治台獨的意見然後這個台獨分子可以處以死刑啊什麼等等之類的那這個呢當然比較多可能是跟陸委會相關的不過這邊很快速的想要問一下外交部就是在於說因為他這個是廣泛的適用在他們所謂的台獨分子那這些人有可能在海外\n488300\t510169\t在海外這些人可能有些國家他有一些引渡條例雖然政治犯原則上是不引渡的但是中國到底會做出什麼事情來以及跟他友好的國家會做出什麼事情來我們不敢擔保所以就變成說外交部這一次在這個意見出現之後對於海外的國人的這個告知然後還有風險的一個評估不知道開始了沒有\n510609\t535695\t是,我們有做過國安高層的會議,比如說發布陳澈警戒、警告對於旅遊區、對於中國方面另外就是在海外因為有涉及到有一些跟中國有簽訂司法互助跟引渡條約的甚至裡面也有相當一部分有一中原則在建交公報裡面\n536175\t561616\t那這個都是過去甚至有一些國家以所謂的對於刑事犯罪像詐騙那進行所謂的引渡或遣返那這些就是我們特別要注意所以我們已經有訓練外館要去跟當地政府溝通然後另外有任何的事態發生我們的處置我們現在也都在進行這方面那讓國人也提高警覺\n562617\t585405\t然後不會讓中共的這個所謂的長臂管轄或者是跨境的鎮壓去傷害到國人因為這個問題是透過我想最近中共對像海警法也不只是對台灣他對於這個相當多的臨近的這些國家都是以他自己的法律在做國際上面的\n586385\t614936\t這個就是說一個灰色地帶或混合戰那這個我們也是要跟國際要做好溝通這不是單獨對台灣好 謝謝部長那最後提醒一點因為時間到了就是說希望趕快可以給海外的台灣人有一些指引讓他們知道可能的風險然後再來就是中國在其他形式他有一個做法就是他可能先用詐欺的方式或者任何的其他的罪名先引渡等到到了中國之後他再轉換罪名變成政治犯這種事情也會蠻常見的所以可能也必須告訴國人這件事情\n615717\t620786\t關於後面外廣的問題我相信今天應該也很多人問了今天時間也不夠了那我就先講到這邊謝謝主席謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請部長\n委員長今天最主要是要問這個跟加入聯合國等等國際組織的一些問題那等一下也再問一下後面的一些相關的這個剛剛前面危險關係的事項那一開始呢這個因為昨天剛好在審這個也是跟我們國防外交聯席的這個台印的MOU\n沈伯洋議員\n有,那是不是\n那這個部分當然因為本來是這個就是要應該講說是查照變成備查嘛那當然尊重立法院的質詢那後來也是審查完成之後也是准以備查所以這個部分我們跟勞動部也都有溝通對因為我昨天發現在這個質詢的場合裡面蠻多人他們並沒有特別的因為我畢竟不是在不是每個人都跟國防外交有關\n所以不是每個人都關心就是談硬之間的關係但我認為這個因為談硬之間之前有講到3S什麼student society還有science and technology所以這個是一個算是society相關的一個交流事項那這一次在他們的政府裡面我們談硬的關係也是不斷的在加溫所以我覺得這算是一個蠻重要的事項那希望以後外交部能夠也多多因為讓勞動部他們在回答的時候因為畢竟昨天都不是外交部回答都是勞動部在回答\n關於聯合國相關的組織當然我們最近有爭取加入WHA還有這個\n國際知識越來越高最主要背後的原因與2758有關因為美國\n還有歐洲他們不斷地用2758號來幫我們做解釋這個是因為我們在同盟關係之下也是外交部的一個努力那因為專報裡面有提到一點就是現在外交部也是要積極要去反制因為中國一直想要去把2758號解釋解釋成他們想要的樣貌那這個反制的措施現在具體來講有哪一些\n當然除了美國就是他們跟做了法律的研究這個是我們怎麼樣去擴大宣傳這一次我想美國也包括跟第三方包括我們的邦交國配方也在展開所謂的public messaging campaign這樣的一個溝通我想這個不只是由上而下我想是全面性因為\n這個二七五八的決議其實它被扭曲、誤用這件事情很多國家都不知道所以並沒有限制就台灣參加國際組織或是說其他國家跟我們建交這些都是開放因為它只處理了蔣介石政權的代表它甚至沒有去觸及到台灣所以這個台灣到底能不能做什麼事情這是開放的這是各國基於主權都可以來跟台灣交往國際組織也是一樣\n謝謝部長這個是正面的論述就是說我們要怎麼去告訴大家這個事實是什麼然後我們的邦交國怎麼去幫我們講話但因為反過來就是像中國他們會不斷的去在各式各樣的場合比如說這一次的今年的香格里拉會議他們又一樣會有這些這個通過這個台灣主權的一些論述那他每一次這種論述出來的時候我們的反擊的力道\n就是當然我們跟盟友之間要選擇什麼時機然後去講2758號決議這是一個但另外一個就是他每一次中國在誤用2758號的時候我們除了能夠在社群媒體上面發聲明之外有沒有可能讓比如說我們跟盟友之間的聲明能夠時間點跟這個更為切合因為中國目前來講會來做這些事情的時間點大概都是那幾個\n所以我希望說外交部在這件事情上面我們能夠更快速的去迎擊這個中國的論述我昨天剛好在跟國防部相關的事情也有講到就是有時候一些投書裡面的內容似是而非那國防部到底要在第一時間然後要怎麼去做論述然後怎麼讓人民知道我覺得現在好像看起來是越來越重要\n是一方面除了美國說以外當然也影響很多友盟當然比如G7一些國家另外美國其實在這次WHA上面他也是反制中國對2758的決意所以這個是就是說其實是作用力跟反作用力另外我特別跟很多來台灣我們的這些外賓都會講中共的法律戰他事實上是為他的武力犯台\n在合理化取得一個所謂的法的基礎這是法律戰所以越是我們不去回應去破解這2758號決議的話他會以這個把台灣就是變成中國的內政台海變成中國的內海\n所以大家一聽就覺得這不是單獨法律爭議的問題這是中共武力併台在做法律基礎的準備大家都會覺得說這個必須要我們一起來看怎麼樣去回應所以不只是參加國際組織而涉及到這個台海的和平跟穩定都會跟這個2758號決議會有關那2758號決議其實很多人不去了解內容就用九二共識\n有共識很好可是你去了解92年那時候就沒有什麼共識是後來發明的2000年蘇起所以我覺得不能夠變成一個就是他做到一個稻草人然後就是有所謂的這個2758號決議我覺得2758號決議某種程度是所謂中共虛構的七一共識\n1971年那九二共識就是1992年又虛構了另外一個共識他用這樣的一個決議啦共識來作為合理化他武力犯台就把台灣問題變成中國的內政這個大家會聽說\n謝謝部長因為提到法律戰這件事情我們都是感同身受而且非常重要的一點是的確國際上很多的盟友對於法律戰這個legal warfare的概念並不是那麼清楚\n但他偏偏是寫在解放軍的教科書上面說這就是他們發動戰爭的一種方式所以讓盟友理解法律這樣的一個框架我認為是非常重要的而且這個所謂的這個不存在的協議他們最近才跟菲律賓也弄了一個幽靈協議就是對方到底簽協議的人在哪裡都不知道\n他宣稱有這個協議的存在一樣的事情一定也會還會再對台灣發生但是這個剛好就切到下一個問題就是剛好他們公佈這個懲治台獨的意見然後這個台獨分子可以處以死刑啊什麼等等之類的那這個呢當然比較多可能是跟陸委會相關的不過這邊很快速的想要問一下外交部就是在於說因為他這個是廣泛的適用在他們所謂的台獨分子那這些人有可能在海外\n在海外這些人可能有些國家他有一些引渡條例雖然政治犯原則上是不引渡的但是中國到底會做出什麼事情來以及跟他友好的國家會做出什麼事情來我們不敢擔保所以就變成說外交部這一次在這個意見出現之後對於海外的國人的這個告知然後還有風險的一個評估不知道開始了沒有\n是,我們有做過國安高層的會議,比如說發布陳澈警戒、警告對於旅遊區、對於中國方面另外就是在海外因為有涉及到有一些跟中國有簽訂司法互助跟引渡條約的甚至裡面也有相當一部分有一中原則在建交公報裡面\n那這個都是過去甚至有一些國家以所謂的對於刑事犯罪像詐騙那進行所謂的引渡或遣返那這些就是我們特別要注意所以我們已經有訓練外館要去跟當地政府溝通然後另外有任何的事態發生我們的處置我們現在也都在進行這方面那讓國人也提高警覺\n然後不會讓中共的這個所謂的長臂管轄或者是跨境的鎮壓去傷害到國人因為這個問題是透過我想最近中共對像海警法也不只是對台灣他對於這個相當多的臨近的這些國家都是以他自己的法律在做國際上面的\n這個就是說一個灰色地帶或混合戰那這個我們也是要跟國際要做好溝通這不是單獨對台灣好 謝謝部長那最後提醒一點因為時間到了就是說希望趕快可以給海外的台灣人有一些指引讓他們知道可能的風險然後再來就是中國在其他形式他有一個做法就是他可能先用詐欺的方式或者任何的其他的罪名先引渡等到到了中國之後他再轉換罪名變成政治犯這種事情也會蠻常見的所以可能也必須告訴國人這件事情\n關於後面外廣的問題我相信今天應該也很多人問了今天時間也不夠了那我就先講到這邊謝謝主席謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.537 --> 00:03.039\n謝謝主席有請部長\n\n00:16.788 --> 00:34.878\n委員長今天最主要是要問這個跟加入聯合國等等國際組織的一些問題那等一下也再問一下後面的一些相關的這個剛剛前面危險關係的事項那一開始呢這個因為昨天剛好在審這個也是跟我們國防外交聯席的這個台印的MOU\n\n00:36.298 --> 00:36.499\n沈伯洋議員\n\n00:51.488 --> 00:51.748\n有,那是不是\n\n01:21.243 --> 01:46.232\n那這個部分當然因為本來是這個就是要應該講說是查照變成備查嘛那當然尊重立法院的質詢那後來也是審查完成之後也是准以備查所以這個部分我們跟勞動部也都有溝通對因為我昨天發現在這個質詢的場合裡面蠻多人他們並沒有特別的因為我畢竟不是在不是每個人都跟國防外交有關\n\n01:46.972 --> 02:14.046\n所以不是每個人都關心就是談硬之間的關係但我認為這個因為談硬之間之前有講到3S什麼studentsociety還有scienceandtechnology所以這個是一個算是society相關的一個交流事項那這一次在他們的政府裡面我們談硬的關係也是不斷的在加溫所以我覺得這算是一個蠻重要的事項那希望以後外交部能夠也多多因為讓勞動部他們在回答的時候因為畢竟昨天都不是外交部回答都是勞動部在回答\n\n02:14.366 --> 02:15.507\n關於聯合國相關的組織當然我們最近有爭取加入WHA還有這個\n\n02:33.882 --> 02:34.703\n國際知識越來越高最主要背後的原因與2758有關因為美國\n\n02:49.399 --> 03:08.493\n還有歐洲他們不斷地用2758號來幫我們做解釋這個是因為我們在同盟關係之下也是外交部的一個努力那因為專報裡面有提到一點就是現在外交部也是要積極要去反制因為中國一直想要去把2758號解釋解釋成他們想要的樣貌那這個反制的措施現在具體來講有哪一些\n\n03:10.697 --> 03:37.195\n當然除了美國就是他們跟做了法律的研究這個是我們怎麼樣去擴大宣傳這一次我想美國也包括跟第三方包括我們的邦交國配方也在展開所謂的publicmessagingcampaign這樣的一個溝通我想這個不只是由上而下我想是全面性因為\n\n03:38.976 --> 04:05.216\n這個二七五八的決議其實它被扭曲、誤用這件事情很多國家都不知道所以並沒有限制就台灣參加國際組織或是說其他國家跟我們建交這些都是開放因為它只處理了蔣介石政權的代表它甚至沒有去觸及到台灣所以這個台灣到底能不能做什麼事情這是開放的這是各國基於主權都可以來跟台灣交往國際組織也是一樣\n\n04:07.117 --> 04:29.728\n謝謝部長這個是正面的論述就是說我們要怎麼去告訴大家這個事實是什麼然後我們的邦交國怎麼去幫我們講話但因為反過來就是像中國他們會不斷的去在各式各樣的場合比如說這一次的今年的香格里拉會議他們又一樣會有這些這個通過這個台灣主權的一些論述那他每一次這種論述出來的時候我們的反擊的力道\n\n04:30.208 --> 04:52.069\n就是當然我們跟盟友之間要選擇什麼時機然後去講2758號決議這是一個但另外一個就是他每一次中國在誤用2758號的時候我們除了能夠在社群媒體上面發聲明之外有沒有可能讓比如說我們跟盟友之間的聲明能夠時間點跟這個更為切合因為中國目前來講會來做這些事情的時間點大概都是那幾個\n\n04:53.050 --> 05:12.380\n所以我希望說外交部在這件事情上面我們能夠更快速的去迎擊這個中國的論述我昨天剛好在跟國防部相關的事情也有講到就是有時候一些投書裡面的內容似是而非那國防部到底要在第一時間然後要怎麼去做論述然後怎麼讓人民知道我覺得現在好像看起來是越來越重要\n\n05:13.180 --> 05:41.821\n是一方面除了美國說以外當然也影響很多友盟當然比如G7一些國家另外美國其實在這次WHA上面他也是反制中國對2758的決意所以這個是就是說其實是作用力跟反作用力另外我特別跟很多來台灣我們的這些外賓都會講中共的法律戰他事實上是為他的武力犯台\n\n05:42.884 --> 05:59.694\n在合理化取得一個所謂的法的基礎這是法律戰所以越是我們不去回應去破解這2758號決議的話他會以這個把台灣就是變成中國的內政台海變成中國的內海\n\n06:00.154 --> 06:23.875\n所以大家一聽就覺得這不是單獨法律爭議的問題這是中共武力併台在做法律基礎的準備大家都會覺得說這個必須要我們一起來看怎麼樣去回應所以不只是參加國際組織而涉及到這個台海的和平跟穩定都會跟這個2758號決議會有關那2758號決議其實很多人不去了解內容就用九二共識\n\n06:26.096 --> 06:46.208\n有共識很好可是你去了解92年那時候就沒有什麼共識是後來發明的2000年蘇起所以我覺得不能夠變成一個就是他做到一個稻草人然後就是有所謂的這個2758號決議我覺得2758號決議某種程度是所謂中共虛構的七一共識\n\n06:47.930 --> 06:59.523\n1971年那九二共識就是1992年又虛構了另外一個共識他用這樣的一個決議啦共識來作為合理化他武力犯台就把台灣問題變成中國的內政這個大家會聽說\n\n07:02.486 --> 07:08.852\n謝謝部長因為提到法律戰這件事情我們都是感同身受而且非常重要的一點是的確國際上很多的盟友對於法律戰這個legalwarfare的概念並不是那麼清楚\n\n07:24.807 --> 07:42.707\n但他偏偏是寫在解放軍的教科書上面說這就是他們發動戰爭的一種方式所以讓盟友理解法律這樣的一個框架我認為是非常重要的而且這個所謂的這個不存在的協議他們最近才跟菲律賓也弄了一個幽靈協議就是對方到底簽協議的人在哪裡都不知道\n\n07:43.067 --> 08:07.600\n他宣稱有這個協議的存在一樣的事情一定也會還會再對台灣發生但是這個剛好就切到下一個問題就是剛好他們公佈這個懲治台獨的意見然後這個台獨分子可以處以死刑啊什麼等等之類的那這個呢當然比較多可能是跟陸委會相關的不過這邊很快速的想要問一下外交部就是在於說因為他這個是廣泛的適用在他們所謂的台獨分子那這些人有可能在海外\n\n08:08.300 --> 08:30.169\n在海外這些人可能有些國家他有一些引渡條例雖然政治犯原則上是不引渡的但是中國到底會做出什麼事情來以及跟他友好的國家會做出什麼事情來我們不敢擔保所以就變成說外交部這一次在這個意見出現之後對於海外的國人的這個告知然後還有風險的一個評估不知道開始了沒有\n\n08:30.609 --> 08:55.695\n是,我們有做過國安高層的會議,比如說發布陳澈警戒、警告對於旅遊區、對於中國方面另外就是在海外因為有涉及到有一些跟中國有簽訂司法互助跟引渡條約的甚至裡面也有相當一部分有一中原則在建交公報裡面\n\n08:56.175 --> 09:21.616\n那這個都是過去甚至有一些國家以所謂的對於刑事犯罪像詐騙那進行所謂的引渡或遣返那這些就是我們特別要注意所以我們已經有訓練外館要去跟當地政府溝通然後另外有任何的事態發生我們的處置我們現在也都在進行這方面那讓國人也提高警覺\n\n09:22.617 --> 09:45.405\n然後不會讓中共的這個所謂的長臂管轄或者是跨境的鎮壓去傷害到國人因為這個問題是透過我想最近中共對像海警法也不只是對台灣他對於這個相當多的臨近的這些國家都是以他自己的法律在做國際上面的\n\n09:46.385 --> 10:14.936\n這個就是說一個灰色地帶或混合戰那這個我們也是要跟國際要做好溝通這不是單獨對台灣好謝謝部長那最後提醒一點因為時間到了就是說希望趕快可以給海外的台灣人有一些指引讓他們知道可能的風險然後再來就是中國在其他形式他有一個做法就是他可能先用詐欺的方式或者任何的其他的罪名先引渡等到到了中國之後他再轉換罪名變成政治犯這種事情也會蠻常見的所以可能也必須告訴國人這件事情\n\n10:15.717 --> 10:20.786\n關於後面外廣的問題我相信今天應該也很多人問了今天時間也不夠了那我就先講到這邊謝謝主席謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.537,"end":3.039,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":16.788,"end":34.878,"text":"委員長今天最主要是要問這個跟加入聯合國等等國際組織的一些問題那等一下也再問一下後面的一些相關的這個剛剛前面危險關係的事項那一開始呢這個因為昨天剛好在審這個也是跟我們國防外交聯席的這個台印的MOU"},{"start":36.298,"end":36.499,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":51.488,"end":51.748,"text":"有,那是不是"},{"start":81.243,"end":106.232,"text":"那這個部分當然因為本來是這個就是要應該講說是查照變成備查嘛那當然尊重立法院的質詢那後來也是審查完成之後也是准以備查所以這個部分我們跟勞動部也都有溝通對因為我昨天發現在這個質詢的場合裡面蠻多人他們並沒有特別的因為我畢竟不是在不是每個人都跟國防外交有關"},{"start":106.972,"end":134.046,"text":"所以不是每個人都關心就是談硬之間的關係但我認為這個因為談硬之間之前有講到3S什麼student society還有science and technology所以這個是一個算是society相關的一個交流事項那這一次在他們的政府裡面我們談硬的關係也是不斷的在加溫所以我覺得這算是一個蠻重要的事項那希望以後外交部能夠也多多因為讓勞動部他們在回答的時候因為畢竟昨天都不是外交部回答都是勞動部在回答"},{"start":134.366,"end":135.507,"text":"關於聯合國相關的組織當然我們最近有爭取加入WHA還有這個"},{"start":153.882,"end":154.703,"text":"國際知識越來越高最主要背後的原因與2758有關因為美國"},{"start":169.399,"end":188.493,"text":"還有歐洲他們不斷地用2758號來幫我們做解釋這個是因為我們在同盟關係之下也是外交部的一個努力那因為專報裡面有提到一點就是現在外交部也是要積極要去反制因為中國一直想要去把2758號解釋解釋成他們想要的樣貌那這個反制的措施現在具體來講有哪一些"},{"start":190.697,"end":217.195,"text":"當然除了美國就是他們跟做了法律的研究這個是我們怎麼樣去擴大宣傳這一次我想美國也包括跟第三方包括我們的邦交國配方也在展開所謂的public messaging campaign這樣的一個溝通我想這個不只是由上而下我想是全面性因為"},{"start":218.976,"end":245.216,"text":"這個二七五八的決議其實它被扭曲、誤用這件事情很多國家都不知道所以並沒有限制就台灣參加國際組織或是說其他國家跟我們建交這些都是開放因為它只處理了蔣介石政權的代表它甚至沒有去觸及到台灣所以這個台灣到底能不能做什麼事情這是開放的這是各國基於主權都可以來跟台灣交往國際組織也是一樣"},{"start":247.117,"end":269.728,"text":"謝謝部長這個是正面的論述就是說我們要怎麼去告訴大家這個事實是什麼然後我們的邦交國怎麼去幫我們講話但因為反過來就是像中國他們會不斷的去在各式各樣的場合比如說這一次的今年的香格里拉會議他們又一樣會有這些這個通過這個台灣主權的一些論述那他每一次這種論述出來的時候我們的反擊的力道"},{"start":270.208,"end":292.069,"text":"就是當然我們跟盟友之間要選擇什麼時機然後去講2758號決議這是一個但另外一個就是他每一次中國在誤用2758號的時候我們除了能夠在社群媒體上面發聲明之外有沒有可能讓比如說我們跟盟友之間的聲明能夠時間點跟這個更為切合因為中國目前來講會來做這些事情的時間點大概都是那幾個"},{"start":293.05,"end":312.38,"text":"所以我希望說外交部在這件事情上面我們能夠更快速的去迎擊這個中國的論述我昨天剛好在跟國防部相關的事情也有講到就是有時候一些投書裡面的內容似是而非那國防部到底要在第一時間然後要怎麼去做論述然後怎麼讓人民知道我覺得現在好像看起來是越來越重要"},{"start":313.18,"end":341.821,"text":"是一方面除了美國說以外當然也影響很多友盟當然比如G7一些國家另外美國其實在這次WHA上面他也是反制中國對2758的決意所以這個是就是說其實是作用力跟反作用力另外我特別跟很多來台灣我們的這些外賓都會講中共的法律戰他事實上是為他的武力犯台"},{"start":342.884,"end":359.694,"text":"在合理化取得一個所謂的法的基礎這是法律戰所以越是我們不去回應去破解這2758號決議的話他會以這個把台灣就是變成中國的內政台海變成中國的內海"},{"start":360.154,"end":383.875,"text":"所以大家一聽就覺得這不是單獨法律爭議的問題這是中共武力併台在做法律基礎的準備大家都會覺得說這個必須要我們一起來看怎麼樣去回應所以不只是參加國際組織而涉及到這個台海的和平跟穩定都會跟這個2758號決議會有關那2758號決議其實很多人不去了解內容就用九二共識"},{"start":386.096,"end":406.208,"text":"有共識很好可是你去了解92年那時候就沒有什麼共識是後來發明的2000年蘇起所以我覺得不能夠變成一個就是他做到一個稻草人然後就是有所謂的這個2758號決議我覺得2758號決議某種程度是所謂中共虛構的七一共識"},{"start":407.93,"end":419.523,"text":"1971年那九二共識就是1992年又虛構了另外一個共識他用這樣的一個決議啦共識來作為合理化他武力犯台就把台灣問題變成中國的內政這個大家會聽說"},{"start":422.486,"end":428.852,"text":"謝謝部長因為提到法律戰這件事情我們都是感同身受而且非常重要的一點是的確國際上很多的盟友對於法律戰這個legal warfare的概念並不是那麼清楚"},{"start":444.807,"end":462.707,"text":"但他偏偏是寫在解放軍的教科書上面說這就是他們發動戰爭的一種方式所以讓盟友理解法律這樣的一個框架我認為是非常重要的而且這個所謂的這個不存在的協議他們最近才跟菲律賓也弄了一個幽靈協議就是對方到底簽協議的人在哪裡都不知道"},{"start":463.067,"end":487.6,"text":"他宣稱有這個協議的存在一樣的事情一定也會還會再對台灣發生但是這個剛好就切到下一個問題就是剛好他們公佈這個懲治台獨的意見然後這個台獨分子可以處以死刑啊什麼等等之類的那這個呢當然比較多可能是跟陸委會相關的不過這邊很快速的想要問一下外交部就是在於說因為他這個是廣泛的適用在他們所謂的台獨分子那這些人有可能在海外"},{"start":488.3,"end":510.169,"text":"在海外這些人可能有些國家他有一些引渡條例雖然政治犯原則上是不引渡的但是中國到底會做出什麼事情來以及跟他友好的國家會做出什麼事情來我們不敢擔保所以就變成說外交部這一次在這個意見出現之後對於海外的國人的這個告知然後還有風險的一個評估不知道開始了沒有"},{"start":510.609,"end":535.695,"text":"是,我們有做過國安高層的會議,比如說發布陳澈警戒、警告對於旅遊區、對於中國方面另外就是在海外因為有涉及到有一些跟中國有簽訂司法互助跟引渡條約的甚至裡面也有相當一部分有一中原則在建交公報裡面"},{"start":536.175,"end":561.616,"text":"那這個都是過去甚至有一些國家以所謂的對於刑事犯罪像詐騙那進行所謂的引渡或遣返那這些就是我們特別要注意所以我們已經有訓練外館要去跟當地政府溝通然後另外有任何的事態發生我們的處置我們現在也都在進行這方面那讓國人也提高警覺"},{"start":562.617,"end":585.405,"text":"然後不會讓中共的這個所謂的長臂管轄或者是跨境的鎮壓去傷害到國人因為這個問題是透過我想最近中共對像海警法也不只是對台灣他對於這個相當多的臨近的這些國家都是以他自己的法律在做國際上面的"},{"start":586.385,"end":614.936,"text":"這個就是說一個灰色地帶或混合戰那這個我們也是要跟國際要做好溝通這不是單獨對台灣好 謝謝部長那最後提醒一點因為時間到了就是說希望趕快可以給海外的台灣人有一些指引讓他們知道可能的風險然後再來就是中國在其他形式他有一個做法就是他可能先用詐欺的方式或者任何的其他的罪名先引渡等到到了中國之後他再轉換罪名變成政治犯這種事情也會蠻常見的所以可能也必須告訴國人這件事情"},{"start":615.717,"end":620.786,"text":"關於後面外廣的問題我相信今天應該也很多人問了今天時間也不夠了那我就先講到這邊謝謝主席謝謝部長"}]}}}}