{"id":154391,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154391","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68a70f2e8d17d5ec2456cd03fb23edab3c9d6e0c0b79bf482f932346238ad03635c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"11:15:50 - 11:46:40","影片長度":"00:30:50","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T11:15:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T11:46:40+08:00","duration":1850,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":878,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（11時16分）謝謝主席，麻煩請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：院長好。我們前幾天在新聞上面看到，包括南投縣仁愛鄉的很多高麗菜、很多農作物都受到冰雹的影響，甚至半個小時之內把整片的很多很多農作物都打壞掉了。我們現在特別要提的是，目前全球可能是氣候變遷的因素，整個大環境以及天候，不是過冷就是過熱，不是水太多就是乾旱，所以對農民也造成很多的衝擊和影響。不管是民進黨政府也好，國民黨政府也好，其實都一直希望好好地照顧農民，所以推了很多相關的政策。可是今天本席也要在這裡特別為農民請命，因為南投是一個農業觀光大縣，尤其近幾年很多農業都受到非常大的衝擊，對他們也造成不小的影響，但這些畢竟是不可抗力的因素，我們沒有辦法改變天氣或者去控制，可是人為的就要由政府付很大的責任。","我們最近接到很多陳情，針對農保的部分突然被註銷了，他們有很多人都已經八、九十歲了。在民國78年的時候，之前其實很多人並不會想要特別加入農保，可是因為政府的政策，希望可以保障農民，在他們都還不知道未來好不好的情況之下，政府是強制性的，尤其是如果有農會保險的身分，一定要強制納保。可是當他們保了三十年、四十年甚至更久的時間，現在卻突然被政府說，你們的資格可能有疑慮，比如你有工商登記，像這樣子就被取消掉了。這個有沒有什麼樣的一個具體作法？"],["卓院長榮泰：農業部來說明。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員，我在這邊說明。委員一直在關心這個議題，我也開了很多的相關會議，想辦法找到一個可以解決的方法。目前就是如果你的工商登記是跟農業有關，這個部分可以免除；如果你登記的不是農業、以外的那個沒辦法，因為相關的農保條例已經規定在那邊了。但我們現在去強調的就是，他的老農年金，不會因為他退保了以後不能再加保而損失，所以他的權益完全還是有保障的，這是我想我們在溝通的時候去做……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們要說的不是他有保障，因為這本來就是他應得的，那是他自己繳的保費。我們現在講的是你突然把它註銷，那我想請問一下，因為剛剛部長提到，如果他的工商登記只要跟……"],["陳部長駿季：農業有相關。"],["馬委員文君：農業有相關的……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["馬委員文君：全部都可以納入……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["馬委員文君：可以認定，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["馬委員文君：我舉例來說，比如國姓的咖啡農，像他們去申請工商登記，他們為什麼去申請工商登記？因為那個時候政府要求他們必須要做標章的認定，他們要去申請產地標章，就要求一定要做工商登記。所以他們因為這樣的因素去申請工商登記，就可以照樣維持農保的資格，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，只要和農業相關、有關的，我們會儘量來協助。"],["馬委員文君：因為他們是被取消的喔！這也是在陳情的對象以內，這是第一個。第二個，如果他們開雜貨店，比如說像過去在很早期，三、四十年前甚至四、五十年前，像仁愛鄉、信義鄉、中寮鄉，南投縣很多偏鄉，他們除了種植農作物以外，其實如果光靠種那些菜或蔬果，並沒有辦法支撐他們的生活，所以有人可能還開了雜貨店，他們把種的東西放在雜貨店賣，那算不算？因為也要做工商登記啊！"],["陳部長駿季：因為雜貨店本身不是只跟農業有關，還有其他的部分。我還是要跟委員說明，就算他退保，還是可以去加保，如果他年齡比較大，我們會請……"],["馬委員文君：部長，來陳情的都是八、九十歲，請問九十幾歲的人要加保什麼？而且你們的加保條件是他必須到土地上實際耕作，一個93歲的老人家，你叫他還要再去耕作！那個時候是政府要他強制納保的！這是第一點。","我再請問一下，如果像現在有很多農地被拿去種電，在上面設置相關的太陽能板，因為要把電賣給台電，有躉售的行為，他們也要做工商登記，那他可不可以維持農保？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，他們只要在漁電共生那下面繼續從事漁業就沒有問題。"],["馬委員文君：部長，他從事漁業，那是地！"],["陳部長駿季：對！"],["馬委員文君：我剛剛講的那些農民，他們也都在他們的土地上面實際從事農業，而且真的種了一輩子，他們從沒有機械代替、沒有人力資源，在沒有水、沒有電的情況之下，要爬山涉水，還要去搬水，那個年代他們就在從事農業，一輩子都待在那裡，可是他們的資格被取消掉了！今天要賣電給台電的時候，你說的那個跟農業相關，它相關在哪裡？他賣電耶！"],["陳部長駿季：不是……"],["馬委員文君：你如果是用土地還可以繼續做農業生產使用做標準，那他們這些被取消的也都是啊！當他在他的雜貨店賣他養的雞，這也是農民啊！當然，這個沒有確切的農業資格，可是像他種植的蔬果都在自己的門前賣，你們卻把他取消了，事實上他就都是直接在從事農業的，所以你們的標準很奇怪！為了配合政府的政策，只要是跟光電有關的，居然就可以！他申請工商登記，賣電跟農業有什麼關係？"],["陳部長駿季：委員有一點誤解，漁電共生的光電業者是不能參加農保的，但是他跟農民合作，農民本身的農保資格不會被取消，所以還是農民對這塊地的……"],["馬委員文君：那如果香菇農在他自己種香菇的棚架上面架設太陽能板，他也必須賣電，所以去申請工商登記，那他的資格算不算？"],["陳部長駿季：菇農的資格還是算啊！"],["馬委員文君：為什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：他本身是農民，他去種菇，只是他在屋頂架太陽能板，架太陽能板是……"],["馬委員文君：部長，這要看你們給農民的解釋。因為在我們的法條上面，清清楚楚地寫了，只要實質從事相關的農業，農保就會存在，因為你要做這些都是為了要打假農民，可是你把真的農民全部犧牲掉了，你現在幫他們說的是在上面種電，可是當時說他們不合格是因為他們辦了工商登記，所以不可以。現在如果種了電，不只可以賣電給台電，資格也還可以，我不知道這樣的標準差異在哪裡？他們也實際在從農啊！這些人都有從農啊！而且繳了一輩子，你們說停就停，他什麼都沒有！"],["陳部長駿季：我想委員非常清楚，我們一般不會主動針對65歲以上、特別是年紀大的人去查核，最主要是因為當時紓困的時候，他們領了這些……"],["馬委員文君：部長，這都已經不是中間的過程，我們今天是要講一個公平正義的問題，當你們知道這些人是實際一輩子從農，從年輕到老，而且他繳了一輩子農保的錢，可是只因為他有工商登記，他被你取消了。你的條例裡面如果就部長剛剛講的，只要他的條件是有實際從農，他就可以符合農保的資格，這是我們照顧農民，而且是農保政策的一個很重要的目的……"],["陳部長駿季：是的。"],["馬委員文君：結果你現在可以幫他們解釋說，如果你在上面種電，你賣電給台電，那你是可以的，但這些原來的農民、真正的農民卻不可以，這樣的政府是有為有能的嗎？而且這個人數並不是很多，到目前為止，從今年1月到5月總共才404位，他們繳了很多錢耶！政府好像在騙他一樣，是不是應該要……"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員說明……"],["馬委員文君：部長，不是對我們說明，而是你如果真的要照顧農民，你們必須解決這個問題，當你可以解釋在你的菇寮上面架設光電，賣電給台電，可以申請工商登記，而且這樣符合農保資格，當你做這樣解釋的時候，你就應該有辦法幫真正一輩子從農的這些老農，當他們往生以後要的那區區的三十多萬，你把它取消掉，增加兒女的負擔，是他們現在最關心的，是他們現在最擔心的，有很多的子女回來還要負擔他這一筆，他們來陳情主要是為了這個，這個部分是不是可以請院長跟部長去做全面的檢視？對這個部分可以有怎麼樣的一個解套的方式，來幫助我們真正的這些老農，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我覺得委員提出的這個觀察，不無可以檢討之處，我們常常說養殖為本、農事為本，養殖為本，才能夠綠能加值，還是要養殖或有從事農事都應該存在，如果從這個標準來看它有相關，我是建議參酌委員剛剛的這個講法，我們做實質上的檢討或必要的解釋跟說明。"],["馬委員文君：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：普遍要照顧到真正還在從事農事的這些農民朋友們。"],["馬委員文君：當我們這些政策是要照顧農民的時候，沒有理由我們用法來犧牲他們，或者就把他們自己的權益通通斷送掉了，而且他是真的繳了好幾十年，因為你主要是為了假農民嘛！包括剛剛的漁電共生，我們的漁電共生大家可以回去檢視看看，事實上他的魚是可以存活的嗎？是可以長大的嗎？如果像這樣子的條件都不行的情況之下，你還可以給他有農保的資格，那為什麼這些不可以？我們非常感謝剛剛院長跟部長有特別提到就這個部分去做研議，可以儘速給我們相關結果的一些答案嗎？大概多久的時間？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想部長會儘快。"],["陳部長駿季：我會儘快，因為這個牽涉到一些例外條件的設定，其實我們研究了非常久，我們也解決了……像你剛才說剩下四百多個，其實本來是一萬多個，所以我們有很多，包括打開了只要跟農業有關的工商業登記，我們都可以認，那現在就是最後一個……"],["馬委員文君：部長，電跟農業沒有關係，就是賣電跟農業沒有關係……"],["陳部長駿季：這是兩件事。"],["馬委員文君：那是政策，對，那是兩件事，所以當你這個可以認定的時候，其他真正的農民你沒有理由不認定。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會來找到一個方法……"],["馬委員文君：所以我們希望可以很快的，至少在兩個禮拜之內或一個月之內，給我們一些初步的方向，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會隨時跟委員聯絡。"],["馬委員文君：院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。另外，我想要請教的也是跟農民有關的，就是我們在採購農藥跟肥料的時候，我們為什麼要將個資寫得這麼清楚，包括他的身分證字號，包括他的姓名、電話、住址，還有他的所有權狀，比如他的土地面積等等，為什麼我們要做到這樣子？農民買個肥料跟農藥有必要這樣嗎？全世界有哪一個民主國家有這樣做？部長，可不可以先讓我們知道一下，全世界有哪一個國家這樣做？"],["陳部長駿季：他們是有類似的……因為臺灣農業的耕作制度跟美國的大規模耕作制度是不一樣的，那我們這樣做的目的是希望透過這樣的方式，讓農民更精準的用藥、更精準的施肥，然後後面相關的事宜，包括我們未來要做的這些數位的農民服務，我們都會利用這種所謂的農藥實名制跟肥料實名制……"],["馬委員文君：部長，全世界沒有其他國家這樣做嘛！對不對？就是要個資，因為要身分證，我去買個肥料，老實說，剛開始這是立意良好，就是像剛剛部長提到的，我們希望包括農藥殘留量，還有確保食安的問題，就是讓他有正確的肥料跟農藥的使用方式，可是事實上並不然，其實除了本末倒置或者擾民以外，而且讓所有農民都覺得自己像賊一樣，因為老實說肥料那麼大一包，如果今天我沒有種，比如像院長、比如像部長，你們沒事會去買肥料來家裡放嗎？那個也要花錢，而且那個會潮溼，也不能久放，而且這麼大的量體，你還要有特別的地方來擺放，所以一般的農民會特別花錢去把它多買回來放在家裡嗎？這個部分從過去到現在都沒有，是近幾年才有，你是不相信農民？如果你要讓農民有正確使用肥料跟農藥這樣子的概念，必須從農民教育開始。"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員說明，農藥實名制、肥料實名制只要第一次去登記的時候，需要填這些資料，以後買肥料就是報一個電話號碼就可以了。"],["馬委員文君：對啊！那很奇怪啊！因為你的目的……"],["陳部長駿季：所以是第一次登錄而已。"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為你的目的是希望可以控制用藥，就是我的面積原來可能五分地，可是我如果賣掉三分地、四分地了，我還是一樣買那麼多啊！所以你們那個是多此一舉。我現在說的是，你必須要根本解決，第一，從源頭，比如像肥料還有農藥的製造商，他們在成分和劑量上面去做最好的控管，當你們知道以後，再給農民最好的一個用藥及用肥料的教育，我相信對我們的食安還有對所有的安全都會有更大的幫助，部長也許知道，如果像現在的天氣太熱、太冷，其實他用的農藥已經不太適用了，而且我們可以使用的農藥品項很少，當農民他使用無效，蟲還是來吃的時候，或者長不出來的時候，他可能有兩種情況，第一種，違規使用，用沒有核定、沒有核准的藥；第二個，有可能必須加量，因為你一直在用舊的農藥，比如像很多我們人的藥品也是，久了就會有抗藥性、耐受性，所以現在有很多的新藥，其實它稀釋都是以千倍、萬倍計算，可是我們現在核准的可能是兩千，兩千他用不行，把它稀釋兩千不行，變成一千，一千不行變五百，所以它的殘留量就會增加，或者他使用一次無效、兩次無效，他就會用第三次，所以其實對我們本來要的一個目的是沒有幫助的。"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員說明，整個農藥、肥料的施用，我們的宣導持續透過教育訓練。第二個部分，剛才您所說的，因為在實名制裡面，他種的東西是會被呈現的，這樣子農藥行這些人就可以給他一個比較正確的建議。"],["馬委員文君：部長，這些就是農民、農藥行跟我的建議，因為我們不是第一年實施，它已經實施一段時間，有些藥就是不行，比如為什麼日本進口的草莓，我們要把它放寬？我忘了那個藥名，為什麼日本他們可以使用，可是在國內的草莓農是不可以使用那些農藥的？我們為了讓日本的草莓可以進口，因為被檢出一次、兩次、三次，結果我們開放日本的草莓農可以使用那三種農藥，可是我們國內的農民是不准的，可見他要使用的時候是必須要有效的，農民要的是有效，你規定是什麼、你叫我用什麼，我都可以，因為他花錢，他不是很愛用農藥，因為那也是要錢，他也是要工，現在要請工還不容易。所以當他們碰到這些困難的時候，希望我們的農政單位、我們的行政單位是幫他們解決問題，而不是製造問題，現在給他們就是非常大的困擾，而且讓他們覺得他們是賊、是被政府防範的。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，農藥實名制在過去幾年推的時候，其實它的滿意度是超過九成的，而且目前每一個農藥行，以前是70%加入而已，現在是100%加入這樣子的一個系統。"],["馬委員文君：部長，那個九成是問誰？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有一個相關的，農藥行本身本來是可以用紙本，也拒絕加入這個東西，然後經過這兩、三年，它現在已經100%都加入我們後面的一個POS系統，表示說……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我剛剛有提到，我是這幾天又特別接到很多農民跟農藥行，他們對……不然我不曉得有這麼多的狀況。今天他們會提出來，是因為你們的調查顯然不符實際的狀況。我們現在特別在這裡要提出來是因為，全世界沒有人這樣做，我們臺灣的教育、臺灣的農業、臺灣的技術各方面都比全球很多的國家還要好，我不相信我們的農民教不會，我們必須要用這樣的方式，採取強勢去要他們個資的方式來限制。我剛剛講了，我原來有五分地，如果賣掉三分地，你也不知道，因為你只登記那一次啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們的個資裡面最重要的是種植作物的品項，種植作物的品項對於後續的用肥用料是需要一些指導的，農藥行可以透過這個方式來指導他。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我再跟您說，因為那個要錢，所以有些人，當我買來說要種筊白筍的時候，我還有剩一些，我就拿去高麗菜上面用了，你也不知道，因為它在高麗菜上面可能不能用。我現在要說的是給農民正確的一個觀念，比你去做這樣的限制，尤其是跟人民拿個資，這是非常嚴重的事情。從我剛才講到現在，有很多對農民的政策並不友善，所以我們今天提出來，是希望我們行政院還有我們農業部，可以就這個部分再去做適時的檢視跟調整。如果可以讓農民更好，如果可以讓我們食安更好，可以讓我們的農藥使用得更好，我相信這是大家都期待的。因為我們當然也不希望吃到很多農藥，可是顯然你那個效果並不是那麼好，所以我們今天特別提出來，是不是可以就這個部分去做調整跟改善？"],["陳部長駿季：我想後續宣導的部分，我們會再來加強，把它的方便性更把它放……就是讓農民在買農藥的時候，他是完全不會有影響，然後反而是對他會有幫助，我們會朝這個目標來努力。"],["馬委員文君：部長，對啦！院長也是，不要跟農民要個資，因為我們士、農、工、商，我們買了千千百百種的東西，甚至有的也都有政府補助，沒有人需要去繳你的個資說我有多少土地，然後我的身分證是什麼，然後我才可以買到我的肥料跟農藥。沒事大家不會買農藥回去喝嘛！所以這個部分，我們還是希望在我們這個自由民主法治的國家，如果這是不恰當的一個政策，我們還是應該適時地調整，因為剛剛我說，其他國家有嗎？顯然好像也沒有特別……"],["陳部長駿季：我們的氣候環境，還有我們作物的多樣性跟其他的國家是完全不一樣的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，全世界有很多國家，我們的氣候、我們的作物多樣性，別的國家都沒有嗎？我們去東南亞，我們有的他們很多也都有啊；像你去中國大陸，他們很多也都有啊；像你去美國、歐洲，有些我們有的他們也有啊，面對氣候的變遷，大家的條件都是同等的，我現在要說的是，這個個資是不是有必要？因為它隨時在調整嘛，可是你們要了農民的個資，到現在我去商家拜訪，還有很多人這樣跟我講，他說：我們是賊嗎？我們會多買回來放嗎？然後那個都要錢啊！所以這個部分，我們從這個角度去看，然後去怎麼樣做更好的一個規劃，讓我們很多的農業農藥或者肥料的使用，讓它更好，我想務實地去做調整會比較好。這個部分，院長有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，第一個，請農業部相關……已經取得的農民個資，務必要安全的保護，絕對不作他用，以維護隱私；第二個，這個實名制應該行之多年，如果我們可以從安全考量、流向去處、價格的穩定，或是用量的建議上，有其他更適當的方式，我請農業部來檢討，有更好的輕政便民的方式，我們朝這個方向來思考。"],["馬委員文君：這個部分，為什麼我會特別一直提個資，一方面就是我相信農業部，我相信我們各部會，我相信行政院，我們相信我們所有的政府部門不會這麼做，可是在必要的時候，好像這個個資全部都流出去了，他的對象很清楚，比如說農民，他就給什麼樣的訊息，這個部分我們特別提出來，是希望可以重新檢視，因為當它如果不斷不斷地發生的時候，對我們民主的國家是一個很大的傷害，不曉得是誰給出去的，可是你沒有辦法控制，他都是商人或者他可能是將本求利，這個部分如果可以不要，你就不應該，這個部分還是希望可以儘快給我們一個結論跟具體的作法，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝，接下來還是針對我們南投縣，因為南投縣的茶葉博覽會，我想部長其實應該也參加過，茶葉其實不只是臺灣重要的一個產業，尤其是南投縣非常重要的產業。老實說過去兩岸關係還不錯的時候，有很多茶葉其實是可以銷到大陸，它的銷售狀況基本上也還不錯，畢竟它的人口就是多，可是近幾年在兩岸關係比較嚴峻的情況之下，所有的限制相對提高，很多的茶種了以後堆得倉庫滿山滿谷，這是很多茶農的心聲。好不容易茶博會在南投縣已經舉辦超過十年以上，而且越來越成功，每年吸引的人數，在官方的統計上面，至少有超過70萬人次，它的商機可能可以在會中或者會後、活動以後去做採購，其實也達到很高的一個銷售額度，可是我們現在看到我們農業部，在過去升格為農業部以後，我們現在協助的經費反而越來越少，其實你只是用很少的錢，可是你創造很大的一個收益，它的性價比其實是非常高的，可是我不知道為什麼你要把它減少，因為這對我們來說，好不容易可以有一個成功的、大家都非常熟悉的一個年度的活動，它可能會造成影響，因為這一次如果沒有這麼多的經費，它可能要縮小規模，這個部分是不是可以在這裡特別請院長跟部長可以多做協助？因為它剛開始設計的規模，大概就是會跟去年、前年一樣，在疫情過後好不容易又恢復了。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，像這個部分，我們一定全力支持，特別是茶博覽會，其實這幾年來已經非常非常有名，我所瞭解，它除了這個計畫之外，它好像還有提另外一個計畫，會後我會去檢視，我們一定讓這個活動順利的舉辦為前提，如果相關的經費真的有不足的地方，我們再看用怎麼樣的方式來協助。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝部長，因為我們現在是希望樂見各個產業真的……有些像觀光產業，現在也都勒緊褲帶，有很多人其實都沒有辦法好好去做生意，對他們來說都是很大的影響，這個部分只要花一點錢就可以，我們還是謝謝部長剛剛的承諾，我們也希望，因為今年很快就要辦了，是不是可以儘快有一個……"],["陳部長駿季：我會請同仁針對實際的部分，看還有怎麼樣的缺口，我們再來想辦法協助。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個活動辦得很好，我們都可以去參加。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝，因為是縣政府主辦，在這裡也代替縣長還有我們所有的茶農，很熱誠的邀請院長還有部長還有所有的部會，大家可以一起去參加。"],["卓院長榮泰：韓院長一起參加。"],["馬委員文君：當然還有我們的院長啦！因為他對南投也非常熟悉，尤其在農業這一塊，歡迎大家，因為就是讓農民更好，不然他們要面對的挑戰也太多了。","另外，還有我們鳥嘴潭人工湖的部分，這個部分經濟部水利署大概斥資202億去建設鳥嘴潭人工湖，它主要的目的當然是為了提供用水，主要是彰化，每日鳥嘴潭人工湖可以提供25萬噸，彰化占了21萬噸，草屯4萬噸。可是在這過程當中，其實南投縣在人工湖的規劃、設計、建造過程當中都非常支持與配合，甚至連用地的取得，地方也都儘量協助，所以它沒有面臨到很大的困難。可是當時的承諾好像有一點變質了，比如那時候希望未來人工湖除了提供用水需求以外，還可以成為臺14線中潭公路很重要的觀光廊帶亮點，可是我們看到它現在快要完工了，本來規劃的青翠毯森林公園空間發展構想就好像沒有下文了，這個部分是不是可以請部長簡要說明一下？"],["陳次長正祺：抱歉，這個我帶回去再去瞭解一下好了，因為我們知道工程沒有問題。"],["馬委員文君：這個跟輸血一樣，當我缺血的時候，你先救我，你輸血給我，以後我會給你買好的營養品幫你補充營養，讓你更好，不會因為你輸血以後就變得很衰弱，可是你做好以後，那個承諾好像不見了，這個部分我們特別希望經濟部可以馬上做檢討，後續應該要怎麼做實質的推動。另外是南投縣的用水，我們的自來水普及率是全國倒數第二，這是不合理的，用了我們所有的資源，可是我們卻受限於倒數第二，這個部分也請經濟部及行政院，請院長特別關注這個部分，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓是很難得來自美國哈佛大學的實習教師，from Harvard University，而且今天的負責人Choetsow是很難得來自西藏出身的女孩，現在在美國哈佛大學，歡迎你來臺灣立法院，歡迎，我們掌聲歡迎。","接下來請登記第5號謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":26,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1136401_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"154391","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154391","tool":"pyannote","id":"154391-pyannote"},"job_id":"pyDG2yXhtuoqKBK9","queued_at":"2024-06-28 12:12:04","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-28 12:12:06","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154391","target":null},{"time":"2024-06-28 12:12:06","msg":"downloading 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"卓\", \"start\": 1824.375, \"end\": 1824.536, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1824.536, \"end\": 1824.556, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1824.556, \"end\": 1824.576, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,509 --> 00:00:15,532\n謝謝主席。麻煩請院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。馬文君好。院長好。院長這一次因為在最近我們前幾天也在新聞上面看到\n\n2\n00:00:38,044 --> 00:00:52,913\n是要包括像南投縣的人愛鄉很多的高麗菜很多的農作物都受到冰泡的那個影響甚至在半個小時之內把整片很多很多的農作物都打壞掉了\n\n3\n00:00:53,533 --> 00:01:11,394\n我們現在特別要提的是目前我們在全球可能氣候變遷的因素然後對於整個大環境還有這些天候不是過冷就是過熱不是水太多就是乾旱所以對農民也造成很多的衝擊跟影響\n\n4\n00:01:13,256 --> 00:01:30,149\n我們不管是民進黨政府也好國民黨政府也好其實都一直希望好好的來照顧我們的農民所以推了很多相關的政策可是今天我本席也要在這裡特別為農民請命因為南投是一個農業觀光的大縣\n\n5\n00:01:32,150 --> 00:01:32,190\n﹚馬文君\n\n6\n00:02:02,550 --> 00:02:02,690\n﹚馬文君\n\n7\n00:02:21,198 --> 00:02:44,404\n政府是強制性的尤其是如果有農會保險的身份一定要強制納保可是當他們保了30年40年甚至更久的時間現在卻突然被政府說你們的資格可能有疑慮比如說你有工商登記像這樣子就被取消掉了這個有沒有什麼樣的一個具體的做法\n\n8\n00:02:46,645 --> 00:02:59,086\n謝謝委員農業部來說明謝謝委員我在這邊說明就是委員一直在關心這個議題那我也開了很多的相關的一個會議想辦法找到一個可以解決的方法那現在目前就是說\n\n9\n00:03:00,862 --> 00:03:00,942\n﹚馬文君\n\n10\n00:03:20,399 --> 00:03:22,602\n我們要說的不是他有保障,因為這本來就是他應得的。\n\n11\n00:03:35,860 --> 00:03:35,900\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n12\n00:03:56,041 --> 00:04:17,819\n像他們去申請工商登記他們為什麼去申請工商登記因為那時候政府要求他們必須要做標章的認定他要去申請那個標章所以他產地標章所以就要求一定要工商登記所以他們因為這樣的因素去申請工商登記他就可以\n\n13\n00:04:18,719 --> 00:04:40,800\n還是一樣維持農保的資格。只要跟農業相關有關的,我們會盡量來協助。因為他們是被取消的,這也是在陳情的對象以內,這是第一個。第二個,如果說他們開雜貨店,比如說像過去在很早期3、40年前,甚至4、50年前,比如說像仁愛鄉、像信義鄉、像中寮鄉、南投縣很多的偏鄉,\n\n14\n00:04:41,661 --> 00:04:41,701\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n15\n00:04:59,028 --> 00:05:19,055\n不是那個雜貨店的部分因為他本身是一個不是只有跟農業有關的還有其他的部分那我還在跟委員說明就是就算他退保他還是可以去加保那如果說年齡比較大的時候我們來爭取我們來懲請的他們都是八九十歲大家可以看到這個九十幾歲的他要加保什麼\n\n16\n00:05:19,835 --> 00:05:47,426\n而且你們要加保的條件是他還必須要到他的地上去實際耕作一個93歲的老人家你叫他說還要再去因為那時候是政府叫他強制納保的這是第一點我再請問一下如果像現在有很多農地被拿去種電他在上面設置相關的那個太陽能那因為太陽能要對要把電賣給台電嘛\n\n17\n00:05:49,167 --> 00:05:49,187\n部長\n\n18\n00:06:05,148 --> 00:06:27,804\n他從事漁業那是地我們剛剛講的這些農民他們也都在他們的土地上面實際從事農業的使用而且真的種了一輩子他們從那時候沒有機械來代替沒有人力資源在沒有水沒有電的情況之下要爬山涉水還要去擔水那個年代他們就從事了農業\n\n19\n00:06:29,485 --> 00:06:29,725\n﹚馬文君\n\n20\n00:06:49,654 --> 00:07:17,393\n在他的雜貨店賣他的他養雞也是農民啦可是當然這個沒有沒有確切的一個農業資格可是像他種植的他的蔬果其實都在自己的門前賣那個那個你們就把它取消了事實上他就是直接都是在從事農業的所以你們的標準很奇怪只要為了配合政府的政策只要跟光電有關的你們居然這個可以他可以他申請工商登記\n\n21\n00:07:19,794 --> 00:07:45,643\n我跟委員,您有一點誤解齁。漁電共生的那個光電業者是不能從事農保的。但是他跟農民合作,農民本身的農保資格不會被取消。所以還是農民對這塊地的一個根據。啊如果香菇農,在他自己的香菇的那個棚架上面,對。那他也必須要賣電,他去申請這樣子的工商登記,那他的資格算不算?\n\n22\n00:07:46,584 --> 00:07:48,045\n部長,你們給農民的解釋,因為在我們的法條上面清清楚楚的寫了\n\n23\n00:08:07,302 --> 00:08:23,746\n你只要從事,實質的從事相關的農業,其實你的農保就會存在,因為你要做這些都是為了要打假農民,可是你把真的農民全部把他們犧牲掉了,你現在在幫他們說,啊我上面種田,他當時說他們不合格的是因為他們辦了工商登記,不可以。\n\n24\n00:08:30,828 --> 00:08:42,679\n所以你現在如果你種了電賣還可以賣電給台電那他的資格還可以我不知道這樣的標準差異在哪裡他們也實際在從容啊這些人都還在他們都有從容啊而且攪了一輩子你們說停就停他什麼都沒有\n\n25\n00:08:47,743 --> 00:08:55,269\n我跟委員我想委員非常清楚他這個我們一般對65歲以上的話我們不會主動的去針對這個特別是年紀大的人去查核那最主要是因為當時紓困的時候他們領了這些農民的部分部長這個都已經不是這個中間過程了我們今天是要講一個公平正義的問題當你們知道這些人是實際一輩子從農而且從年輕到老而且他繳了一輩子的農保的錢\n\n26\n00:09:17,006 --> 00:09:30,548\n可是他只因為他有工商登記他被你取消了你的條例裡面如果就部長剛剛講的只要他的條件其實他是有實際從農他就可以有符合農保的資格這是我們照顧農民\n\n27\n00:09:32,530 --> 00:09:44,335\n而且我們要有這個農保的政策的一個很重要的一個目的結果你現在可以幫他們解釋說如果你在上面因為你種電你賣電給台電那你是可以的那為這些原來的農民真正的農民你們卻不可以這樣的政府是有為有能的嗎\n\n28\n00:09:55,848 --> 00:09:58,609\n而且這個人數並不是很多到目前為止從今年1月到5月總共才404位他們繳了很多錢欸你政府好像在騙他一樣\n\n29\n00:10:08,867 --> 00:10:28,567\n是不是應該要部長不是對我們說明而是你如果真的要照顧農民你們必須解決這個問題當你可以解釋在你的估了上面架設你的光電賣電給台電可以申請工商登記而且這樣符合農保資格當你做這樣解釋的時候你就應該有辦法\n\n30\n00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:31,870\n﹚馬文君\n\n31\n00:10:52,152 --> 00:11:04,664\n這個部分是不是可以請院長跟部長就這個部分去做全面的檢視對這個部分可以有怎麼樣的一個解套的方式來幫助我們真正的這些老農好不好\n\n32\n00:11:05,712 --> 00:11:30,644\n謝謝委員我覺得委員提出的這個觀察不無可以檢討之處我們常常說養殖為本農事為本養殖為本才能夠綠能加值還是要養殖或有從事農事都應該存在如果從這個標準來看它有相關我是建議剛剛我們參佐委員這個講法我們做實質上的檢討或必要解釋跟說明\n\n33\n00:11:31,144 --> 00:11:59,230\n好普遍要照顧到真正在還在從事農事的這些農民朋友們當你的法其實是要當我們這些政策是要照顧農民的時候沒有沒有理由我們用法來犧牲他們或者就把他們自己的權益通通把它斷送掉了而且他是真的講了好幾十年因為你不主要是為了講農民嗎包括剛剛的餘電共生我們的餘電共生大家可以回去檢視看看他事實上他的\n\n34\n00:11:59,690 --> 00:11:59,950\n大概多久的時間?\n\n35\n00:12:25,003 --> 00:12:39,812\n我想我會盡快,因為這個牽涉到一些例外條件的一個設定,因為其實我們研究了非常久,我們也解決了,像你剛才說剩下400多個,其實本來是1萬多個,所以我們有很多包括\n\n36\n00:12:40,896 --> 00:12:43,178\n我們希望可以很快的至少在兩個禮拜之內或一個月之內給我們一些出戶的一個方向\n\n37\n00:13:10,438 --> 00:13:13,122\n另外還有的就是我想要請教的也是跟農民有關的就是我們在採購農藥跟肥料的時候我們為什麼要\n\n38\n00:13:26,119 --> 00:13:30,023\n為什麼我們要做到這樣子?農民買個肥料跟農藥有必要這樣嗎?全世界有哪一個國家有這樣做?民主國家?部長可不可以先讓我們知道一下全世界有哪一個國家這樣做?\n\n39\n00:13:48,479 --> 00:13:49,180\n全世界沒有其他國家這樣做嘛,對不對?\n\n40\n00:14:15,540 --> 00:14:44,806\n就是要各自因為你要身份證我去買個肥料老實說因為我們剛開始這是利益良好就是像剛剛部長提到的我們希望他的農藥殘留量還有我們確保食安的問題就讓他有正確的肥料跟農藥的一個使用的方式可是事實上並不然其實他除了本末倒置或者擾民以外而且讓所有農民都覺得他們像自己像賊\n\n41\n00:14:45,506 --> 00:14:45,546\n﹚馬文君\n\n42\n00:15:15,586 --> 00:15:21,938\n那你是不相信農民,如果你要讓農民有正確的使用肥料跟農藥的這樣子的一個概念,必須從農民教育開始。\n\n43\n00:15:28,632 --> 00:15:57,312\n我要跟委員說明齁榮耀實名制肥大實名制只要第一次去登記的時候需要填這些資料以後你買肥大的話就是用報一個電話號碼就可以了對啊那很奇怪啊因為你的目的部長因為你的目的是希望可以控制用藥嘛就是說我的面積原來可能五分地可是我如果賣掉三分地四分地了咧我還是一樣買那麼多啊所以你那麼那個是多此一舉我現在說的是你必須要根本解決\n\n44\n00:15:58,052 --> 00:15:58,973\n﹚馬文君﹚馬文君﹚\n\n45\n00:16:27,248 --> 00:16:50,261\n太熱太冷其實他用的農藥已經不太適用了而且我們的標準很就是我們可以使用的農藥品項很少當農民他使用無效的時候蟲還是來吃的時候或者他長不出來的時候他可能有兩種情況第一種就是違規使用\n\n46\n00:16:51,221 --> 00:16:51,261\n﹚馬文君\n\n47\n00:17:35,980 --> 00:17:53,361\n我要跟委員說明就是說整個的一個農藥肥料的施用我們的宣導持續透過教育訓練第二個部分就是剛才您所說的就是透過因為在實名制裡面他種的東西是會被呈現的那這樣子農藥行這些人就可以給他一個比較正確的一個建議\n\n48\n00:17:54,804 --> 00:18:08,247\n部長這些就是農民跟農藥行跟我的建議因為我們不是第一年實施他已經實施一段時間有些藥就是不行比如說為什麼日本進口的草莓我們要給他放寬為什麼日本他們可以使用我忘了那個藥名可是在國內的草莓農是不可以使用那些農藥的\n\n49\n00:18:17,849 --> 00:18:44,316\n我們為了讓日本的草莓可以進口因為被檢出一次兩次三次結果我們開放日本的草莓農可以使用那幾樣的三種吧那三種農藥可是我們國內的農民是不准的那可見他要使用的時候他有很多必須要有效農民要的是有效你規定是什麼你叫我用什麼我都可以因為他花錢他不是很愛用農藥欸因為那也是要錢欸\n\n50\n00:18:46,817 --> 00:18:47,117\n我跟...\n\n51\n00:19:05,981 --> 00:19:06,181\n部長,那個九成是問誰?\n\n52\n00:19:18,837 --> 00:19:20,959\n我剛剛有提到我是這幾天又特別接到很多的農民跟農藥行他們\n\n53\n00:19:42,555 --> 00:20:03,150\n今天他們會提出來是因為顯然你們的調查不符實際的一個狀況。我們現在特別在這裡要提出來是因為全世界沒有人這樣做。我們台灣的教育、台灣的農業、台灣的技術各方面都比全球很多很多的國家還要好。\n\n54\n00:20:03,951 --> 00:20:29,460\n我不相信我們的農民教不會我們必須要用這樣的方式要採取要去強勢要他們的個資的方式來限制我幫他講啦我本來五分地我如果賣掉三分地你也不知道啊因為你只登記那一次啊我跟你講我們的個資裡面最重要的是他種植的作物的品項那種植作物的品項對於後續的用肥用料是需要一些指導農藥行可以透過這個方式來指導他部長我再跟您說因為那個要錢\n\n55\n00:20:32,961 --> 00:20:33,342\n我現在要說的是給農民正確的一個觀念,\n\n56\n00:20:49,341 --> 00:21:10,995\n比你去做這樣的限制尤其跟人民拿個資這是非常嚴重的事情尤其是跟農民從我剛才講到現在有很多對農民的政策並不友善所以我們今天提出來是希望我們行政院還有我們農業部可以就這個部分再去做事實的一個檢視跟調整如果可以讓農民更好如果可以讓我們食安更好可以讓我們的農藥使用可以更好\n\n57\n00:21:16,738 --> 00:21:42,866\n我相信這是大家都期待的因為我們當然不希望我們吃到很多農藥可是顯然你那個效果並不是那麼好所以我們今天特別提出來是不是可以就這個部分去做調整跟改善我想後續的宣導的部分我們會再來加強然後把它的方便性更把它放就是讓農民在買農藥的時候他是完全不會有影響然後反而是對他會有幫助我們會朝這個目標來努力\n\n58\n00:21:44,609 --> 00:21:58,009\n院長也是,不要跟農民要各自,因為我們是農工商,我們買了千千百百種的東西,甚至也都有政府補助的,沒有人需要\n\n59\n00:21:58,590 --> 00:21:58,890\n﹚馬文君\n\n60\n00:22:14,802 --> 00:22:14,962\n﹚馬文君\n\n61\n00:22:32,833 --> 00:22:32,873\n﹚馬文君\n\n62\n00:23:02,182 --> 00:23:02,342\n﹚馬文君\n\n63\n00:23:23,049 --> 00:23:48,941\n報告委員第一個請農業部相關已經取得的這個農民的個資務必要安全的保護絕對不做他用維護隱私第二個這個實名制應該行之多年如果我們可以從安全考量流向去處價格的穩定或是用量的建議上有其他更適當的方式我請農業部來檢討有更好的親政變名的方式我們朝這個方向來思考\n\n64\n00:23:49,261 --> 00:24:07,351\n好這個部分因為為什麼我們特別一直提個資一方面就是我相信農業部我相信我們各部會我們相信行政院我們相信我們所有政府部門不會這麼做可是在必要的時候好像這個個資全部都流出去了他的對象很清楚\n\n65\n00:24:07,751 --> 00:24:07,791\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n66\n00:24:32,512 --> 00:24:32,532\n謝謝委員長。\n\n67\n00:24:48,689 --> 00:25:05,065\n部長其實應該也參加過那茶葉其實不只是臺灣重要的一個產業尤其是南投縣非常重要的產業那近幾年過去老實說兩岸關係還不錯的時候有很多茶葉其實可以銷到大陸\n\n68\n00:25:06,286 --> 00:25:06,386\n﹚馬文君\n\n69\n00:25:22,546 --> 00:25:22,626\n﹚馬文君\n\n70\n00:25:50,948 --> 00:25:51,148\n﹚馬文君\n\n71\n00:26:16,212 --> 00:26:16,272\n﹚馬文君\n\n72\n00:26:34,977 --> 00:26:49,392\n他可能要縮小規模,這個部分是不是可以在這裡特別請院長跟部長可以多做協助,因為他剛開始設計的規模大概就是會跟去年前年一樣嘛,在疫情過後好不容易又恢復了。\n\n73\n00:26:50,986 --> 00:27:13,791\n我跟委員說明,像這個部分我們一定全力支持,特別是查柏蘭會其實在這幾年來已經非常非常有名。然後我所了解就是說他除了這個計畫以外他好像還有提另外一個計畫。那我會後我會去檢視,就是我們一定讓這個活動順利的舉辦為前提。那如果說相關的經費如果真的是有不足的地方我們再看怎麼樣的方式來協助。\n\n74\n00:27:14,571 --> 00:27:42,859\n好謝謝謝謝部長因為我們現在是希望樂見各個產業真的有些像觀光產業其實現在都勒緊褲帶有很多人其實都沒有辦法好好的去做生意那對我對他們來說都是很大的影響那如果這個部分只要花一點錢就可以那我們還是謝謝部長剛剛的承諾那我們也希望說今年因為很快就要辦了嘛是不是可以盡快有一個\n\n75\n00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:57,742\n我會請同仁就是說實際的部分看還有怎麼樣的一個缺口,我們再來想辦法協助。他們這個活動辦得很好,我們都可以去參加。好,謝謝。代替縣長,因為縣政府主辦,那在這裡也代替縣長還有我們所有的我們的茶農,很熱誠的邀請院長還有部長還有所有的部會,大家可以一起去參加。\n\n76\n00:28:08,505 --> 00:28:28,454\n當然還有我們的院長因為他也非常熟悉對南投尤其在農業這一塊那歡迎大家因為就是讓農民更好因為不然他們要面對的挑戰也太多了另外就是還有我們鳥嘴壇人工湖的部分\n\n77\n00:28:29,114 --> 00:28:29,314\n﹚馬文君\n\n78\n00:28:46,366 --> 00:29:12,175\n每日鳥嘴壇人工湖可以提供25萬噸。章化站的21萬噸。草屯4萬噸。可是在這過程當中其實南投縣在人工湖的規劃設計建造的過程當中其實都非常的支持跟配合。甚至連用地的取得地方也都盡量協助。所以他其實沒有面臨到很大的困難。\n\n79\n00:29:12,895 --> 00:29:34,095\n可是現在當時的承諾好像有一點變質了。比如說那時候有說在希望未來這個人工湖除了是這樣子的一個用水的需求以外還可以成為台14線就是我們中壇公路一個很重要的一個觀光廊帶的一個亮點。\n\n80\n00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:54,185\n可是我們看到就是說他現在快要完工了那本來規劃的一個這個叫青翠潭森林公園空間發展構想就好像沒有下文了這個部分是不是可以請部長簡要的說明一下\n\n81\n00:29:55,612 --> 00:30:05,500\n抱歉抱歉委員這個我待會去再去了解一下好了因為我們還是知道這個因為當時這個跟輸血一樣啊我在欠貨的時候你有說先給我救啊然後你血輸給我以後我會給你買好的營養品給你補充營養讓你更好不會因為你輸血以後然後就變得很衰弱可是你做好以後那個承諾好像不見了這個部分我們特別希望我們經濟部可以馬上\n\n82\n00:30:23,254 --> 00:30:24,576\n謝謝馬文君委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長的\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11509\t15532\t謝謝主席。麻煩請院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。馬文君好。院長好。院長這一次因為在最近我們前幾天也在新聞上面看到\n38044\t52913\t是要包括像南投縣的人愛鄉很多的高麗菜很多的農作物都受到冰泡的那個影響甚至在半個小時之內把整片很多很多的農作物都打壞掉了\n53533\t71394\t我們現在特別要提的是目前我們在全球可能氣候變遷的因素然後對於整個大環境還有這些天候不是過冷就是過熱不是水太多就是乾旱所以對農民也造成很多的衝擊跟影響\n73256\t90149\t我們不管是民進黨政府也好國民黨政府也好其實都一直希望好好的來照顧我們的農民所以推了很多相關的政策可是今天我本席也要在這裡特別為農民請命因為南投是一個農業觀光的大縣\n92150\t92190\t﹚馬文君\n122550\t122690\t﹚馬文君\n141198\t164404\t政府是強制性的尤其是如果有農會保險的身份一定要強制納保可是當他們保了30年40年甚至更久的時間現在卻突然被政府說你們的資格可能有疑慮比如說你有工商登記像這樣子就被取消掉了這個有沒有什麼樣的一個具體的做法\n166645\t179086\t謝謝委員 農業部來說明謝謝委員我在這邊說明就是委員一直在關心這個議題那我也開了很多的相關的一個會議想辦法找到一個可以解決的方法那現在目前就是說\n180862\t180942\t﹚馬文君\n200399\t202602\t我們要說的不是他有保障,因為這本來就是他應得的。\n215860\t215900\t﹚馬文君﹚\n236041\t257819\t像他們去申請工商登記他們為什麼去申請工商登記因為那時候政府要求他們必須要做標章的認定他要去申請那個標章所以他產地標章所以就要求一定要工商登記所以他們因為這樣的因素去申請工商登記他就可以\n258719\t280800\t還是一樣維持農保的資格。只要跟農業相關有關的,我們會盡量來協助。因為他們是被取消的,這也是在陳情的對象以內,這是第一個。第二個,如果說他們開雜貨店,比如說像過去在很早期3、40年前,甚至4、50年前,比如說像仁愛鄉、像信義鄉、像中寮鄉、南投縣很多的偏鄉,\n281661\t281701\t﹚馬文君﹚\n299028\t319055\t不是那個雜貨店的部分因為他本身是一個不是只有跟農業有關的還有其他的部分那我還在跟委員說明就是就算他退保他還是可以去加保那如果說年齡比較大的時候我們來爭取我們來懲請的他們都是八九十歲大家可以看到這個九十幾歲的他要加保什麼\n319835\t347426\t而且你們要加保的條件是他還必須要到他的地上去實際耕作一個93歲的老人家你叫他說還要再去因為那時候是政府叫他強制納保的這是第一點我再請問一下如果像現在有很多農地被拿去種電他在上面設置相關的那個太陽能那因為太陽能要對要把電賣給台電嘛\n349167\t349187\t部長\n365148\t387804\t他從事漁業那是地我們剛剛講的這些農民他們也都在他們的土地上面實際從事農業的使用而且真的種了一輩子他們從那時候沒有機械來代替沒有人力資源在沒有水沒有電的情況之下要爬山涉水還要去擔水那個年代他們就從事了農業\n389485\t389725\t﹚馬文君\n409654\t437393\t在他的雜貨店賣他的他養雞也是農民啦可是當然這個沒有沒有確切的一個農業資格可是像他種植的他的蔬果其實都在自己的門前賣那個那個你們就把它取消了事實上他就是直接都是在從事農業的所以你們的標準很奇怪只要為了配合政府的政策只要跟光電有關的你們居然這個可以他可以他申請工商登記\n439794\t465643\t我跟委員,您有一點誤解齁。漁電共生的那個光電業者是不能從事農保的。但是他跟農民合作,農民本身的農保資格不會被取消。所以還是農民對這塊地的一個根據。啊如果香菇農,在他自己的香菇的那個棚架上面,對。那他也必須要賣電,他去申請這樣子的工商登記,那他的資格算不算?\n466584\t468045\t部長,你們給農民的解釋,因為在我們的法條上面清清楚楚的寫了\n487302\t503746\t你只要從事,實質的從事相關的農業,其實你的農保就會存在,因為你要做這些都是為了要打假農民,可是你把真的農民全部把他們犧牲掉了,你現在在幫他們說,啊我上面種田,他當時說他們不合格的是因為他們辦了工商登記,不可以。\n510828\t522679\t所以你現在如果你種了電賣還可以賣電給台電那他的資格還可以我不知道這樣的標準差異在哪裡他們也實際在從容啊這些人都還在他們都有從容啊而且攪了一輩子你們說停就停他什麼都沒有\n527743\t535269\t我跟委員 我想委員非常清楚他這個 我們一般對65歲以上的話我們不會主動的去針對這個特別是年紀大的人去查核那最主要是因為當時紓困的時候他們領了這些農民的部分部長 這個都已經不是這個中間過程了我們今天是要講一個公平正義的問題當你們知道這些人是實際一輩子從農而且從年輕到老而且他繳了一輩子的農保的錢\n557006\t570548\t可是他只因為他有工商登記他被你取消了你的條例裡面如果就部長剛剛講的只要他的條件其實他是有實際從農他就可以有符合農保的資格這是我們照顧農民\n572530\t584335\t而且我們要有這個農保的政策的一個很重要的一個目的結果你現在可以幫他們解釋說如果你在上面因為你種電你賣電給台電那你是可以的那為這些原來的農民真正的農民你們卻不可以這樣的政府是有為有能的嗎\n595848\t598609\t而且這個人數並不是很多到目前為止從今年1月到5月總共才404位他們繳了很多錢欸你政府好像在騙他一樣\n608867\t628567\t是不是應該要部長不是對我們說明而是你如果真的要照顧農民你們必須解決這個問題當你可以解釋在你的估了上面架設你的光電賣電給台電可以申請工商登記而且這樣符合農保資格當你做這樣解釋的時候你就應該有辦法\n631830\t631870\t﹚馬文君\n652152\t664664\t這個部分是不是可以請院長跟部長就這個部分去做全面的檢視對這個部分可以有怎麼樣的一個解套的方式來幫助我們真正的這些老農好不好\n665712\t690644\t謝謝委員我覺得委員提出的這個觀察不無可以檢討之處我們常常說養殖為本農事為本養殖為本才能夠綠能加值還是要養殖或有從事農事都應該存在如果從這個標準來看它有相關我是建議剛剛我們參佐委員這個講法我們做實質上的檢討或必要解釋跟說明\n691144\t719230\t好普遍要照顧到真正在還在從事農事的這些農民朋友們當你的法其實是要當我們這些政策是要照顧農民的時候沒有沒有理由我們用法來犧牲他們或者就把他們自己的權益通通把它斷送掉了而且他是真的講了好幾十年因為你不主要是為了講農民嗎包括剛剛的餘電共生我們的餘電共生大家可以回去檢視看看他事實上他的\n719690\t719950\t大概多久的時間?\n745003\t759812\t我想我會盡快,因為這個牽涉到一些例外條件的一個設定,因為其實我們研究了非常久,我們也解決了,像你剛才說剩下400多個,其實本來是1萬多個,所以我們有很多包括\n760896\t763178\t我們希望可以很快的至少在兩個禮拜之內或一個月之內給我們一些出戶的一個方向\n790438\t793122\t另外還有的就是我想要請教的也是跟農民有關的就是我們在採購農藥跟肥料的時候我們為什麼要\n806119\t810023\t為什麼我們要做到這樣子?農民買個肥料跟農藥有必要這樣嗎?全世界有哪一個國家有這樣做?民主國家?部長可不可以先讓我們知道一下全世界有哪一個國家這樣做?\n828479\t829180\t全世界沒有其他國家這樣做嘛,對不對?\n855540\t884806\t就是要各自因為你要身份證我去買個肥料老實說因為我們剛開始這是利益良好就是像剛剛部長提到的我們希望他的農藥殘留量還有我們確保食安的問題就讓他有正確的肥料跟農藥的一個使用的方式可是事實上並不然其實他除了本末倒置或者擾民以外而且讓所有農民都覺得他們像自己像賊\n885506\t885546\t﹚馬文君\n915586\t921938\t那你是不相信農民,如果你要讓農民有正確的使用肥料跟農藥的這樣子的一個概念,必須從農民教育開始。\n928632\t957312\t我要跟委員說明齁榮耀實名制肥大實名制只要第一次去登記的時候需要填這些資料以後你買肥大的話就是用報一個電話號碼就可以了對啊那很奇怪啊因為你的目的部長因為你的目的是希望可以控制用藥嘛就是說我的面積原來可能五分地可是我如果賣掉三分地四分地了咧我還是一樣買那麼多啊所以你那麼那個是多此一舉我現在說的是你必須要根本解決\n958052\t958973\t﹚馬文君﹚馬文君﹚\n987248\t1010261\t太熱太冷其實他用的農藥已經不太適用了而且我們的標準很就是我們可以使用的農藥品項很少當農民他使用無效的時候蟲還是來吃的時候或者他長不出來的時候他可能有兩種情況第一種就是違規使用\n1011221\t1011261\t﹚馬文君\n1036476\t1055179\t﹗\n1055980\t1073361\t我要跟委員說明就是說整個的一個農藥肥料的施用我們的宣導持續透過教育訓練第二個部分就是剛才您所說的就是透過因為在實名制裡面他種的東西是會被呈現的那這樣子農藥行這些人就可以給他一個比較正確的一個建議\n1074804\t1088247\t部長這些就是農民跟農藥行跟我的建議因為我們不是第一年實施他已經實施一段時間有些藥就是不行比如說為什麼日本進口的草莓我們要給他放寬為什麼日本他們可以使用我忘了那個藥名可是在國內的草莓農是不可以使用那些農藥的\n1097849\t1124316\t我們為了讓日本的草莓可以進口因為被檢出一次兩次三次結果我們開放日本的草莓農可以使用那幾樣的三種吧那三種農藥可是我們國內的農民是不准的那可見他要使用的時候他有很多必須要有效農民要的是有效你規定是什麼你叫我用什麼我都可以因為他花錢他不是很愛用農藥欸因為那也是要錢欸\n1126817\t1127117\t我跟...\n1145981\t1146181\t部長,那個九成是問誰?\n1158837\t1160959\t我剛剛有提到我是這幾天又特別接到很多的農民跟農藥行他們\n1182555\t1203150\t今天他們會提出來是因為顯然你們的調查不符實際的一個狀況。我們現在特別在這裡要提出來是因為全世界沒有人這樣做。我們台灣的教育、台灣的農業、台灣的技術各方面都比全球很多很多的國家還要好。\n1203951\t1229460\t我不相信我們的農民教不會我們必須要用這樣的方式要採取要去強勢要他們的個資的方式來限制我幫他講啦我本來五分地我如果賣掉三分地你也不知道啊因為你只登記那一次啊我跟你講我們的個資裡面最重要的是他種植的作物的品項那種植作物的品項對於後續的用肥用料是需要一些指導農藥行可以透過這個方式來指導他部長我再跟您說因為那個要錢\n1232961\t1233342\t我現在要說的是給農民正確的一個觀念,\n1249341\t1270995\t比你去做這樣的限制尤其跟人民拿個資這是非常嚴重的事情尤其是跟農民從我剛才講到現在有很多對農民的政策並不友善所以我們今天提出來是希望我們行政院還有我們農業部可以就這個部分再去做事實的一個檢視跟調整如果可以讓農民更好如果可以讓我們食安更好可以讓我們的農藥使用可以更好\n1276738\t1302866\t我相信這是大家都期待的因為我們當然不希望我們吃到很多農藥可是顯然你那個效果並不是那麼好所以我們今天特別提出來是不是可以就這個部分去做調整跟改善我想後續的宣導的部分我們會再來加強然後把它的方便性更把它放就是讓農民在買農藥的時候他是完全不會有影響然後反而是對他會有幫助我們會朝這個目標來努力\n1304609\t1318009\t院長也是,不要跟農民要各自,因為我們是農工商,我們買了千千百百種的東西,甚至也都有政府補助的,沒有人需要\n1318590\t1318890\t﹚馬文君\n1334802\t1334962\t﹚馬文君\n1352833\t1352873\t﹚馬文君\n1382182\t1382342\t﹚馬文君\n1403049\t1428941\t報告委員第一個請農業部相關已經取得的這個農民的個資務必要安全的保護絕對不做他用維護隱私第二個這個實名制應該行之多年如果我們可以從安全考量流向去處價格的穩定或是用量的建議上有其他更適當的方式我請農業部來檢討有更好的親政變名的方式我們朝這個方向來思考\n1429261\t1447351\t好這個部分因為為什麼我們特別一直提個資一方面就是我相信農業部我相信我們各部會我們相信行政院我們相信我們所有政府部門不會這麼做可是在必要的時候好像這個個資全部都流出去了他的對象很清楚\n1447751\t1447791\t﹚馬文君﹚\n1472512\t1472532\t謝謝委員長。\n1488689\t1505065\t部長其實應該也參加過那茶葉其實不只是臺灣重要的一個產業尤其是南投縣非常重要的產業那近幾年過去老實說兩岸關係還不錯的時候有很多茶葉其實可以銷到大陸\n1506286\t1506386\t﹚馬文君\n1522546\t1522626\t﹚馬文君\n1550948\t1551148\t﹚馬文君\n1576212\t1576272\t﹚馬文君\n1594977\t1609392\t他可能要縮小規模,這個部分是不是可以在這裡特別請院長跟部長可以多做協助,因為他剛開始設計的規模大概就是會跟去年前年一樣嘛,在疫情過後好不容易又恢復了。\n1610986\t1633791\t我跟委員說明,像這個部分我們一定全力支持,特別是查柏蘭會其實在這幾年來已經非常非常有名。然後我所了解就是說他除了這個計畫以外他好像還有提另外一個計畫。那我會後我會去檢視,就是我們一定讓這個活動順利的舉辦為前提。那如果說相關的經費如果真的是有不足的地方我們再看怎麼樣的方式來協助。\n1634571\t1662859\t好 謝謝謝謝部長因為我們現在是希望樂見各個產業真的有些像觀光產業其實現在都勒緊褲帶有很多人其實都沒有辦法好好的去做生意那對我對他們來說都是很大的影響那如果這個部分只要花一點錢就可以那我們還是謝謝部長剛剛的承諾那我們也希望說今年因為很快就要辦了嘛是不是可以盡快有一個\n1664079\t1677742\t我會請同仁就是說實際的部分看還有怎麼樣的一個缺口,我們再來想辦法協助。他們這個活動辦得很好,我們都可以去參加。好,謝謝。代替縣長,因為縣政府主辦,那在這裡也代替縣長還有我們所有的我們的茶農,很熱誠的邀請院長還有部長還有所有的部會,大家可以一起去參加。\n1688505\t1708454\t當然還有我們的院長因為他也非常熟悉對南投尤其在農業這一塊那歡迎大家因為就是讓農民更好因為不然他們要面對的挑戰也太多了另外就是還有我們鳥嘴壇人工湖的部分\n1709114\t1709314\t﹚馬文君\n1726366\t1752175\t每日鳥嘴壇人工湖可以提供25萬噸。章化站的21萬噸。草屯4萬噸。可是在這過程當中其實南投縣在人工湖的規劃設計建造的過程當中其實都非常的支持跟配合。甚至連用地的取得地方也都盡量協助。所以他其實沒有面臨到很大的困難。\n1752895\t1774095\t可是現在當時的承諾好像有一點變質了。比如說那時候有說在希望未來這個人工湖除了是這樣子的一個用水的需求以外還可以成為台14線就是我們中壇公路一個很重要的一個觀光廊帶的一個亮點。\n1775396\t1794185\t可是我們看到就是說他現在快要完工了那本來規劃的一個這個叫青翠潭森林公園空間發展構想就好像沒有下文了這個部分是不是可以請部長簡要的說明一下\n1795612\t1805500\t抱歉抱歉委員這個我待會去再去了解一下好了因為我們還是知道這個因為當時這個跟輸血一樣啊我在欠貨的時候你有說先給我救啊然後你血輸給我以後我會給你買好的營養品給你補充營養讓你更好不會因為你輸血以後然後就變得很衰弱可是你做好以後那個承諾好像不見了這個部分我們特別希望我們經濟部可以馬上\n1823254\t1824576\t謝謝馬文君委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長的\n","txt":"謝謝主席。麻煩請院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。馬文君好。院長好。院長這一次因為在最近我們前幾天也在新聞上面看到\n是要包括像南投縣的人愛鄉很多的高麗菜很多的農作物都受到冰泡的那個影響甚至在半個小時之內把整片很多很多的農作物都打壞掉了\n我們現在特別要提的是目前我們在全球可能氣候變遷的因素然後對於整個大環境還有這些天候不是過冷就是過熱不是水太多就是乾旱所以對農民也造成很多的衝擊跟影響\n我們不管是民進黨政府也好國民黨政府也好其實都一直希望好好的來照顧我們的農民所以推了很多相關的政策可是今天我本席也要在這裡特別為農民請命因為南投是一個農業觀光的大縣\n﹚馬文君\n﹚馬文君\n政府是強制性的尤其是如果有農會保險的身份一定要強制納保可是當他們保了30年40年甚至更久的時間現在卻突然被政府說你們的資格可能有疑慮比如說你有工商登記像這樣子就被取消掉了這個有沒有什麼樣的一個具體的做法\n謝謝委員 農業部來說明謝謝委員我在這邊說明就是委員一直在關心這個議題那我也開了很多的相關的一個會議想辦法找到一個可以解決的方法那現在目前就是說\n﹚馬文君\n我們要說的不是他有保障,因為這本來就是他應得的。\n﹚馬文君﹚\n像他們去申請工商登記他們為什麼去申請工商登記因為那時候政府要求他們必須要做標章的認定他要去申請那個標章所以他產地標章所以就要求一定要工商登記所以他們因為這樣的因素去申請工商登記他就可以\n還是一樣維持農保的資格。只要跟農業相關有關的,我們會盡量來協助。因為他們是被取消的,這也是在陳情的對象以內,這是第一個。第二個,如果說他們開雜貨店,比如說像過去在很早期3、40年前,甚至4、50年前,比如說像仁愛鄉、像信義鄉、像中寮鄉、南投縣很多的偏鄉,\n﹚馬文君﹚\n不是那個雜貨店的部分因為他本身是一個不是只有跟農業有關的還有其他的部分那我還在跟委員說明就是就算他退保他還是可以去加保那如果說年齡比較大的時候我們來爭取我們來懲請的他們都是八九十歲大家可以看到這個九十幾歲的他要加保什麼\n而且你們要加保的條件是他還必須要到他的地上去實際耕作一個93歲的老人家你叫他說還要再去因為那時候是政府叫他強制納保的這是第一點我再請問一下如果像現在有很多農地被拿去種電他在上面設置相關的那個太陽能那因為太陽能要對要把電賣給台電嘛\n部長\n他從事漁業那是地我們剛剛講的這些農民他們也都在他們的土地上面實際從事農業的使用而且真的種了一輩子他們從那時候沒有機械來代替沒有人力資源在沒有水沒有電的情況之下要爬山涉水還要去擔水那個年代他們就從事了農業\n﹚馬文君\n在他的雜貨店賣他的他養雞也是農民啦可是當然這個沒有沒有確切的一個農業資格可是像他種植的他的蔬果其實都在自己的門前賣那個那個你們就把它取消了事實上他就是直接都是在從事農業的所以你們的標準很奇怪只要為了配合政府的政策只要跟光電有關的你們居然這個可以他可以他申請工商登記\n我跟委員,您有一點誤解齁。漁電共生的那個光電業者是不能從事農保的。但是他跟農民合作,農民本身的農保資格不會被取消。所以還是農民對這塊地的一個根據。啊如果香菇農,在他自己的香菇的那個棚架上面,對。那他也必須要賣電,他去申請這樣子的工商登記,那他的資格算不算?\n部長,你們給農民的解釋,因為在我們的法條上面清清楚楚的寫了\n你只要從事,實質的從事相關的農業,其實你的農保就會存在,因為你要做這些都是為了要打假農民,可是你把真的農民全部把他們犧牲掉了,你現在在幫他們說,啊我上面種田,他當時說他們不合格的是因為他們辦了工商登記,不可以。\n所以你現在如果你種了電賣還可以賣電給台電那他的資格還可以我不知道這樣的標準差異在哪裡他們也實際在從容啊這些人都還在他們都有從容啊而且攪了一輩子你們說停就停他什麼都沒有\n我跟委員 我想委員非常清楚他這個 我們一般對65歲以上的話我們不會主動的去針對這個特別是年紀大的人去查核那最主要是因為當時紓困的時候他們領了這些農民的部分部長 這個都已經不是這個中間過程了我們今天是要講一個公平正義的問題當你們知道這些人是實際一輩子從農而且從年輕到老而且他繳了一輩子的農保的錢\n可是他只因為他有工商登記他被你取消了你的條例裡面如果就部長剛剛講的只要他的條件其實他是有實際從農他就可以有符合農保的資格這是我們照顧農民\n而且我們要有這個農保的政策的一個很重要的一個目的結果你現在可以幫他們解釋說如果你在上面因為你種電你賣電給台電那你是可以的那為這些原來的農民真正的農民你們卻不可以這樣的政府是有為有能的嗎\n而且這個人數並不是很多到目前為止從今年1月到5月總共才404位他們繳了很多錢欸你政府好像在騙他一樣\n是不是應該要部長不是對我們說明而是你如果真的要照顧農民你們必須解決這個問題當你可以解釋在你的估了上面架設你的光電賣電給台電可以申請工商登記而且這樣符合農保資格當你做這樣解釋的時候你就應該有辦法\n﹚馬文君\n這個部分是不是可以請院長跟部長就這個部分去做全面的檢視對這個部分可以有怎麼樣的一個解套的方式來幫助我們真正的這些老農好不好\n謝謝委員我覺得委員提出的這個觀察不無可以檢討之處我們常常說養殖為本農事為本養殖為本才能夠綠能加值還是要養殖或有從事農事都應該存在如果從這個標準來看它有相關我是建議剛剛我們參佐委員這個講法我們做實質上的檢討或必要解釋跟說明\n好普遍要照顧到真正在還在從事農事的這些農民朋友們當你的法其實是要當我們這些政策是要照顧農民的時候沒有沒有理由我們用法來犧牲他們或者就把他們自己的權益通通把它斷送掉了而且他是真的講了好幾十年因為你不主要是為了講農民嗎包括剛剛的餘電共生我們的餘電共生大家可以回去檢視看看他事實上他的\n大概多久的時間?\n我想我會盡快,因為這個牽涉到一些例外條件的一個設定,因為其實我們研究了非常久,我們也解決了,像你剛才說剩下400多個,其實本來是1萬多個,所以我們有很多包括\n我們希望可以很快的至少在兩個禮拜之內或一個月之內給我們一些出戶的一個方向\n另外還有的就是我想要請教的也是跟農民有關的就是我們在採購農藥跟肥料的時候我們為什麼要\n為什麼我們要做到這樣子?農民買個肥料跟農藥有必要這樣嗎?全世界有哪一個國家有這樣做?民主國家?部長可不可以先讓我們知道一下全世界有哪一個國家這樣做?\n全世界沒有其他國家這樣做嘛,對不對?\n就是要各自因為你要身份證我去買個肥料老實說因為我們剛開始這是利益良好就是像剛剛部長提到的我們希望他的農藥殘留量還有我們確保食安的問題就讓他有正確的肥料跟農藥的一個使用的方式可是事實上並不然其實他除了本末倒置或者擾民以外而且讓所有農民都覺得他們像自己像賊\n﹚馬文君\n那你是不相信農民,如果你要讓農民有正確的使用肥料跟農藥的這樣子的一個概念,必須從農民教育開始。\n我要跟委員說明齁榮耀實名制肥大實名制只要第一次去登記的時候需要填這些資料以後你買肥大的話就是用報一個電話號碼就可以了對啊那很奇怪啊因為你的目的部長因為你的目的是希望可以控制用藥嘛就是說我的面積原來可能五分地可是我如果賣掉三分地四分地了咧我還是一樣買那麼多啊所以你那麼那個是多此一舉我現在說的是你必須要根本解決\n﹚馬文君﹚馬文君﹚\n太熱太冷其實他用的農藥已經不太適用了而且我們的標準很就是我們可以使用的農藥品項很少當農民他使用無效的時候蟲還是來吃的時候或者他長不出來的時候他可能有兩種情況第一種就是違規使用\n﹚馬文君\n﹗\n我要跟委員說明就是說整個的一個農藥肥料的施用我們的宣導持續透過教育訓練第二個部分就是剛才您所說的就是透過因為在實名制裡面他種的東西是會被呈現的那這樣子農藥行這些人就可以給他一個比較正確的一個建議\n部長這些就是農民跟農藥行跟我的建議因為我們不是第一年實施他已經實施一段時間有些藥就是不行比如說為什麼日本進口的草莓我們要給他放寬為什麼日本他們可以使用我忘了那個藥名可是在國內的草莓農是不可以使用那些農藥的\n我們為了讓日本的草莓可以進口因為被檢出一次兩次三次結果我們開放日本的草莓農可以使用那幾樣的三種吧那三種農藥可是我們國內的農民是不准的那可見他要使用的時候他有很多必須要有效農民要的是有效你規定是什麼你叫我用什麼我都可以因為他花錢他不是很愛用農藥欸因為那也是要錢欸\n我跟...\n部長,那個九成是問誰?\n我剛剛有提到我是這幾天又特別接到很多的農民跟農藥行他們\n今天他們會提出來是因為顯然你們的調查不符實際的一個狀況。我們現在特別在這裡要提出來是因為全世界沒有人這樣做。我們台灣的教育、台灣的農業、台灣的技術各方面都比全球很多很多的國家還要好。\n我不相信我們的農民教不會我們必須要用這樣的方式要採取要去強勢要他們的個資的方式來限制我幫他講啦我本來五分地我如果賣掉三分地你也不知道啊因為你只登記那一次啊我跟你講我們的個資裡面最重要的是他種植的作物的品項那種植作物的品項對於後續的用肥用料是需要一些指導農藥行可以透過這個方式來指導他部長我再跟您說因為那個要錢\n我現在要說的是給農民正確的一個觀念,\n比你去做這樣的限制尤其跟人民拿個資這是非常嚴重的事情尤其是跟農民從我剛才講到現在有很多對農民的政策並不友善所以我們今天提出來是希望我們行政院還有我們農業部可以就這個部分再去做事實的一個檢視跟調整如果可以讓農民更好如果可以讓我們食安更好可以讓我們的農藥使用可以更好\n我相信這是大家都期待的因為我們當然不希望我們吃到很多農藥可是顯然你那個效果並不是那麼好所以我們今天特別提出來是不是可以就這個部分去做調整跟改善我想後續的宣導的部分我們會再來加強然後把它的方便性更把它放就是讓農民在買農藥的時候他是完全不會有影響然後反而是對他會有幫助我們會朝這個目標來努力\n院長也是,不要跟農民要各自,因為我們是農工商,我們買了千千百百種的東西,甚至也都有政府補助的,沒有人需要\n﹚馬文君\n﹚馬文君\n﹚馬文君\n﹚馬文君\n報告委員第一個請農業部相關已經取得的這個農民的個資務必要安全的保護絕對不做他用維護隱私第二個這個實名制應該行之多年如果我們可以從安全考量流向去處價格的穩定或是用量的建議上有其他更適當的方式我請農業部來檢討有更好的親政變名的方式我們朝這個方向來思考\n好這個部分因為為什麼我們特別一直提個資一方面就是我相信農業部我相信我們各部會我們相信行政院我們相信我們所有政府部門不會這麼做可是在必要的時候好像這個個資全部都流出去了他的對象很清楚\n﹚馬文君﹚\n謝謝委員長。\n部長其實應該也參加過那茶葉其實不只是臺灣重要的一個產業尤其是南投縣非常重要的產業那近幾年過去老實說兩岸關係還不錯的時候有很多茶葉其實可以銷到大陸\n﹚馬文君\n﹚馬文君\n﹚馬文君\n﹚馬文君\n他可能要縮小規模,這個部分是不是可以在這裡特別請院長跟部長可以多做協助,因為他剛開始設計的規模大概就是會跟去年前年一樣嘛,在疫情過後好不容易又恢復了。\n我跟委員說明,像這個部分我們一定全力支持,特別是查柏蘭會其實在這幾年來已經非常非常有名。然後我所了解就是說他除了這個計畫以外他好像還有提另外一個計畫。那我會後我會去檢視,就是我們一定讓這個活動順利的舉辦為前提。那如果說相關的經費如果真的是有不足的地方我們再看怎麼樣的方式來協助。\n好 謝謝謝謝部長因為我們現在是希望樂見各個產業真的有些像觀光產業其實現在都勒緊褲帶有很多人其實都沒有辦法好好的去做生意那對我對他們來說都是很大的影響那如果這個部分只要花一點錢就可以那我們還是謝謝部長剛剛的承諾那我們也希望說今年因為很快就要辦了嘛是不是可以盡快有一個\n我會請同仁就是說實際的部分看還有怎麼樣的一個缺口,我們再來想辦法協助。他們這個活動辦得很好,我們都可以去參加。好,謝謝。代替縣長,因為縣政府主辦,那在這裡也代替縣長還有我們所有的我們的茶農,很熱誠的邀請院長還有部長還有所有的部會,大家可以一起去參加。\n當然還有我們的院長因為他也非常熟悉對南投尤其在農業這一塊那歡迎大家因為就是讓農民更好因為不然他們要面對的挑戰也太多了另外就是還有我們鳥嘴壇人工湖的部分\n﹚馬文君\n每日鳥嘴壇人工湖可以提供25萬噸。章化站的21萬噸。草屯4萬噸。可是在這過程當中其實南投縣在人工湖的規劃設計建造的過程當中其實都非常的支持跟配合。甚至連用地的取得地方也都盡量協助。所以他其實沒有面臨到很大的困難。\n可是現在當時的承諾好像有一點變質了。比如說那時候有說在希望未來這個人工湖除了是這樣子的一個用水的需求以外還可以成為台14線就是我們中壇公路一個很重要的一個觀光廊帶的一個亮點。\n可是我們看到就是說他現在快要完工了那本來規劃的一個這個叫青翠潭森林公園空間發展構想就好像沒有下文了這個部分是不是可以請部長簡要的說明一下\n抱歉抱歉委員這個我待會去再去了解一下好了因為我們還是知道這個因為當時這個跟輸血一樣啊我在欠貨的時候你有說先給我救啊然後你血輸給我以後我會給你買好的營養品給你補充營養讓你更好不會因為你輸血以後然後就變得很衰弱可是你做好以後那個承諾好像不見了這個部分我們特別希望我們經濟部可以馬上\n謝謝馬文君委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長的\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.509 --> 00:15.532\n謝謝主席。麻煩請院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。馬文君好。院長好。院長這一次因為在最近我們前幾天也在新聞上面看到\n\n00:38.044 --> 00:52.913\n是要包括像南投縣的人愛鄉很多的高麗菜很多的農作物都受到冰泡的那個影響甚至在半個小時之內把整片很多很多的農作物都打壞掉了\n\n00:53.533 --> 01:11.394\n我們現在特別要提的是目前我們在全球可能氣候變遷的因素然後對於整個大環境還有這些天候不是過冷就是過熱不是水太多就是乾旱所以對農民也造成很多的衝擊跟影響\n\n01:13.256 --> 01:30.149\n我們不管是民進黨政府也好國民黨政府也好其實都一直希望好好的來照顧我們的農民所以推了很多相關的政策可是今天我本席也要在這裡特別為農民請命因為南投是一個農業觀光的大縣\n\n01:32.150 --> 01:32.190\n﹚馬文君\n\n02:02.550 --> 02:02.690\n﹚馬文君\n\n02:21.198 --> 02:44.404\n政府是強制性的尤其是如果有農會保險的身份一定要強制納保可是當他們保了30年40年甚至更久的時間現在卻突然被政府說你們的資格可能有疑慮比如說你有工商登記像這樣子就被取消掉了這個有沒有什麼樣的一個具體的做法\n\n02:46.645 --> 02:59.086\n謝謝委員農業部來說明謝謝委員我在這邊說明就是委員一直在關心這個議題那我也開了很多的相關的一個會議想辦法找到一個可以解決的方法那現在目前就是說\n\n03:00.862 --> 03:00.942\n﹚馬文君\n\n03:20.399 --> 03:22.602\n我們要說的不是他有保障,因為這本來就是他應得的。\n\n03:35.860 --> 03:35.900\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n03:56.041 --> 04:17.819\n像他們去申請工商登記他們為什麼去申請工商登記因為那時候政府要求他們必須要做標章的認定他要去申請那個標章所以他產地標章所以就要求一定要工商登記所以他們因為這樣的因素去申請工商登記他就可以\n\n04:18.719 --> 04:40.800\n還是一樣維持農保的資格。只要跟農業相關有關的,我們會盡量來協助。因為他們是被取消的,這也是在陳情的對象以內,這是第一個。第二個,如果說他們開雜貨店,比如說像過去在很早期3、40年前,甚至4、50年前,比如說像仁愛鄉、像信義鄉、像中寮鄉、南投縣很多的偏鄉,\n\n04:41.661 --> 04:41.701\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n04:59.028 --> 05:19.055\n不是那個雜貨店的部分因為他本身是一個不是只有跟農業有關的還有其他的部分那我還在跟委員說明就是就算他退保他還是可以去加保那如果說年齡比較大的時候我們來爭取我們來懲請的他們都是八九十歲大家可以看到這個九十幾歲的他要加保什麼\n\n05:19.835 --> 05:47.426\n而且你們要加保的條件是他還必須要到他的地上去實際耕作一個93歲的老人家你叫他說還要再去因為那時候是政府叫他強制納保的這是第一點我再請問一下如果像現在有很多農地被拿去種電他在上面設置相關的那個太陽能那因為太陽能要對要把電賣給台電嘛\n\n05:49.167 --> 05:49.187\n部長\n\n06:05.148 --> 06:27.804\n他從事漁業那是地我們剛剛講的這些農民他們也都在他們的土地上面實際從事農業的使用而且真的種了一輩子他們從那時候沒有機械來代替沒有人力資源在沒有水沒有電的情況之下要爬山涉水還要去擔水那個年代他們就從事了農業\n\n06:29.485 --> 06:29.725\n﹚馬文君\n\n06:49.654 --> 07:17.393\n在他的雜貨店賣他的他養雞也是農民啦可是當然這個沒有沒有確切的一個農業資格可是像他種植的他的蔬果其實都在自己的門前賣那個那個你們就把它取消了事實上他就是直接都是在從事農業的所以你們的標準很奇怪只要為了配合政府的政策只要跟光電有關的你們居然這個可以他可以他申請工商登記\n\n07:19.794 --> 07:45.643\n我跟委員,您有一點誤解齁。漁電共生的那個光電業者是不能從事農保的。但是他跟農民合作,農民本身的農保資格不會被取消。所以還是農民對這塊地的一個根據。啊如果香菇農,在他自己的香菇的那個棚架上面,對。那他也必須要賣電,他去申請這樣子的工商登記,那他的資格算不算?\n\n07:46.584 --> 07:48.045\n部長,你們給農民的解釋,因為在我們的法條上面清清楚楚的寫了\n\n08:07.302 --> 08:23.746\n你只要從事,實質的從事相關的農業,其實你的農保就會存在,因為你要做這些都是為了要打假農民,可是你把真的農民全部把他們犧牲掉了,你現在在幫他們說,啊我上面種田,他當時說他們不合格的是因為他們辦了工商登記,不可以。\n\n08:30.828 --> 08:42.679\n所以你現在如果你種了電賣還可以賣電給台電那他的資格還可以我不知道這樣的標準差異在哪裡他們也實際在從容啊這些人都還在他們都有從容啊而且攪了一輩子你們說停就停他什麼都沒有\n\n08:47.743 --> 08:55.269\n我跟委員我想委員非常清楚他這個我們一般對65歲以上的話我們不會主動的去針對這個特別是年紀大的人去查核那最主要是因為當時紓困的時候他們領了這些農民的部分部長這個都已經不是這個中間過程了我們今天是要講一個公平正義的問題當你們知道這些人是實際一輩子從農而且從年輕到老而且他繳了一輩子的農保的錢\n\n09:17.006 --> 09:30.548\n可是他只因為他有工商登記他被你取消了你的條例裡面如果就部長剛剛講的只要他的條件其實他是有實際從農他就可以有符合農保的資格這是我們照顧農民\n\n09:32.530 --> 09:44.335\n而且我們要有這個農保的政策的一個很重要的一個目的結果你現在可以幫他們解釋說如果你在上面因為你種電你賣電給台電那你是可以的那為這些原來的農民真正的農民你們卻不可以這樣的政府是有為有能的嗎\n\n09:55.848 --> 09:58.609\n而且這個人數並不是很多到目前為止從今年1月到5月總共才404位他們繳了很多錢欸你政府好像在騙他一樣\n\n10:08.867 --> 10:28.567\n是不是應該要部長不是對我們說明而是你如果真的要照顧農民你們必須解決這個問題當你可以解釋在你的估了上面架設你的光電賣電給台電可以申請工商登記而且這樣符合農保資格當你做這樣解釋的時候你就應該有辦法\n\n10:31.830 --> 10:31.870\n﹚馬文君\n\n10:52.152 --> 11:04.664\n這個部分是不是可以請院長跟部長就這個部分去做全面的檢視對這個部分可以有怎麼樣的一個解套的方式來幫助我們真正的這些老農好不好\n\n11:05.712 --> 11:30.644\n謝謝委員我覺得委員提出的這個觀察不無可以檢討之處我們常常說養殖為本農事為本養殖為本才能夠綠能加值還是要養殖或有從事農事都應該存在如果從這個標準來看它有相關我是建議剛剛我們參佐委員這個講法我們做實質上的檢討或必要解釋跟說明\n\n11:31.144 --> 11:59.230\n好普遍要照顧到真正在還在從事農事的這些農民朋友們當你的法其實是要當我們這些政策是要照顧農民的時候沒有沒有理由我們用法來犧牲他們或者就把他們自己的權益通通把它斷送掉了而且他是真的講了好幾十年因為你不主要是為了講農民嗎包括剛剛的餘電共生我們的餘電共生大家可以回去檢視看看他事實上他的\n\n11:59.690 --> 11:59.950\n大概多久的時間?\n\n12:25.003 --> 12:39.812\n我想我會盡快,因為這個牽涉到一些例外條件的一個設定,因為其實我們研究了非常久,我們也解決了,像你剛才說剩下400多個,其實本來是1萬多個,所以我們有很多包括\n\n12:40.896 --> 12:43.178\n我們希望可以很快的至少在兩個禮拜之內或一個月之內給我們一些出戶的一個方向\n\n13:10.438 --> 13:13.122\n另外還有的就是我想要請教的也是跟農民有關的就是我們在採購農藥跟肥料的時候我們為什麼要\n\n13:26.119 --> 13:30.023\n為什麼我們要做到這樣子?農民買個肥料跟農藥有必要這樣嗎?全世界有哪一個國家有這樣做?民主國家?部長可不可以先讓我們知道一下全世界有哪一個國家這樣做?\n\n13:48.479 --> 13:49.180\n全世界沒有其他國家這樣做嘛,對不對?\n\n14:15.540 --> 14:44.806\n就是要各自因為你要身份證我去買個肥料老實說因為我們剛開始這是利益良好就是像剛剛部長提到的我們希望他的農藥殘留量還有我們確保食安的問題就讓他有正確的肥料跟農藥的一個使用的方式可是事實上並不然其實他除了本末倒置或者擾民以外而且讓所有農民都覺得他們像自己像賊\n\n14:45.506 --> 14:45.546\n﹚馬文君\n\n15:15.586 --> 15:21.938\n那你是不相信農民,如果你要讓農民有正確的使用肥料跟農藥的這樣子的一個概念,必須從農民教育開始。\n\n15:28.632 --> 15:57.312\n我要跟委員說明齁榮耀實名制肥大實名制只要第一次去登記的時候需要填這些資料以後你買肥大的話就是用報一個電話號碼就可以了對啊那很奇怪啊因為你的目的部長因為你的目的是希望可以控制用藥嘛就是說我的面積原來可能五分地可是我如果賣掉三分地四分地了咧我還是一樣買那麼多啊所以你那麼那個是多此一舉我現在說的是你必須要根本解決\n\n15:58.052 --> 15:58.973\n﹚馬文君﹚馬文君﹚\n\n16:27.248 --> 16:50.261\n太熱太冷其實他用的農藥已經不太適用了而且我們的標準很就是我們可以使用的農藥品項很少當農民他使用無效的時候蟲還是來吃的時候或者他長不出來的時候他可能有兩種情況第一種就是違規使用\n\n16:51.221 --> 16:51.261\n﹚馬文君\n\n17:35.980 --> 17:53.361\n我要跟委員說明就是說整個的一個農藥肥料的施用我們的宣導持續透過教育訓練第二個部分就是剛才您所說的就是透過因為在實名制裡面他種的東西是會被呈現的那這樣子農藥行這些人就可以給他一個比較正確的一個建議\n\n17:54.804 --> 18:08.247\n部長這些就是農民跟農藥行跟我的建議因為我們不是第一年實施他已經實施一段時間有些藥就是不行比如說為什麼日本進口的草莓我們要給他放寬為什麼日本他們可以使用我忘了那個藥名可是在國內的草莓農是不可以使用那些農藥的\n\n18:17.849 --> 18:44.316\n我們為了讓日本的草莓可以進口因為被檢出一次兩次三次結果我們開放日本的草莓農可以使用那幾樣的三種吧那三種農藥可是我們國內的農民是不准的那可見他要使用的時候他有很多必須要有效農民要的是有效你規定是什麼你叫我用什麼我都可以因為他花錢他不是很愛用農藥欸因為那也是要錢欸\n\n18:46.817 --> 18:47.117\n我跟...\n\n19:05.981 --> 19:06.181\n部長,那個九成是問誰?\n\n19:18.837 --> 19:20.959\n我剛剛有提到我是這幾天又特別接到很多的農民跟農藥行他們\n\n19:42.555 --> 20:03.150\n今天他們會提出來是因為顯然你們的調查不符實際的一個狀況。我們現在特別在這裡要提出來是因為全世界沒有人這樣做。我們台灣的教育、台灣的農業、台灣的技術各方面都比全球很多很多的國家還要好。\n\n20:03.951 --> 20:29.460\n我不相信我們的農民教不會我們必須要用這樣的方式要採取要去強勢要他們的個資的方式來限制我幫他講啦我本來五分地我如果賣掉三分地你也不知道啊因為你只登記那一次啊我跟你講我們的個資裡面最重要的是他種植的作物的品項那種植作物的品項對於後續的用肥用料是需要一些指導農藥行可以透過這個方式來指導他部長我再跟您說因為那個要錢\n\n20:32.961 --> 20:33.342\n我現在要說的是給農民正確的一個觀念,\n\n20:49.341 --> 21:10.995\n比你去做這樣的限制尤其跟人民拿個資這是非常嚴重的事情尤其是跟農民從我剛才講到現在有很多對農民的政策並不友善所以我們今天提出來是希望我們行政院還有我們農業部可以就這個部分再去做事實的一個檢視跟調整如果可以讓農民更好如果可以讓我們食安更好可以讓我們的農藥使用可以更好\n\n21:16.738 --> 21:42.866\n我相信這是大家都期待的因為我們當然不希望我們吃到很多農藥可是顯然你那個效果並不是那麼好所以我們今天特別提出來是不是可以就這個部分去做調整跟改善我想後續的宣導的部分我們會再來加強然後把它的方便性更把它放就是讓農民在買農藥的時候他是完全不會有影響然後反而是對他會有幫助我們會朝這個目標來努力\n\n21:44.609 --> 21:58.009\n院長也是,不要跟農民要各自,因為我們是農工商,我們買了千千百百種的東西,甚至也都有政府補助的,沒有人需要\n\n21:58.590 --> 21:58.890\n﹚馬文君\n\n22:14.802 --> 22:14.962\n﹚馬文君\n\n22:32.833 --> 22:32.873\n﹚馬文君\n\n23:02.182 --> 23:02.342\n﹚馬文君\n\n23:23.049 --> 23:48.941\n報告委員第一個請農業部相關已經取得的這個農民的個資務必要安全的保護絕對不做他用維護隱私第二個這個實名制應該行之多年如果我們可以從安全考量流向去處價格的穩定或是用量的建議上有其他更適當的方式我請農業部來檢討有更好的親政變名的方式我們朝這個方向來思考\n\n23:49.261 --> 24:07.351\n好這個部分因為為什麼我們特別一直提個資一方面就是我相信農業部我相信我們各部會我們相信行政院我們相信我們所有政府部門不會這麼做可是在必要的時候好像這個個資全部都流出去了他的對象很清楚\n\n24:07.751 --> 24:07.791\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n24:32.512 --> 24:32.532\n謝謝委員長。\n\n24:48.689 --> 25:05.065\n部長其實應該也參加過那茶葉其實不只是臺灣重要的一個產業尤其是南投縣非常重要的產業那近幾年過去老實說兩岸關係還不錯的時候有很多茶葉其實可以銷到大陸\n\n25:06.286 --> 25:06.386\n﹚馬文君\n\n25:22.546 --> 25:22.626\n﹚馬文君\n\n25:50.948 --> 25:51.148\n﹚馬文君\n\n26:16.212 --> 26:16.272\n﹚馬文君\n\n26:34.977 --> 26:49.392\n他可能要縮小規模,這個部分是不是可以在這裡特別請院長跟部長可以多做協助,因為他剛開始設計的規模大概就是會跟去年前年一樣嘛,在疫情過後好不容易又恢復了。\n\n26:50.986 --> 27:13.791\n我跟委員說明,像這個部分我們一定全力支持,特別是查柏蘭會其實在這幾年來已經非常非常有名。然後我所了解就是說他除了這個計畫以外他好像還有提另外一個計畫。那我會後我會去檢視,就是我們一定讓這個活動順利的舉辦為前提。那如果說相關的經費如果真的是有不足的地方我們再看怎麼樣的方式來協助。\n\n27:14.571 --> 27:42.859\n好謝謝謝謝部長因為我們現在是希望樂見各個產業真的有些像觀光產業其實現在都勒緊褲帶有很多人其實都沒有辦法好好的去做生意那對我對他們來說都是很大的影響那如果這個部分只要花一點錢就可以那我們還是謝謝部長剛剛的承諾那我們也希望說今年因為很快就要辦了嘛是不是可以盡快有一個\n\n27:44.079 --> 27:57.742\n我會請同仁就是說實際的部分看還有怎麼樣的一個缺口,我們再來想辦法協助。他們這個活動辦得很好,我們都可以去參加。好,謝謝。代替縣長,因為縣政府主辦,那在這裡也代替縣長還有我們所有的我們的茶農,很熱誠的邀請院長還有部長還有所有的部會,大家可以一起去參加。\n\n28:08.505 --> 28:28.454\n當然還有我們的院長因為他也非常熟悉對南投尤其在農業這一塊那歡迎大家因為就是讓農民更好因為不然他們要面對的挑戰也太多了另外就是還有我們鳥嘴壇人工湖的部分\n\n28:29.114 --> 28:29.314\n﹚馬文君\n\n28:46.366 --> 29:12.175\n每日鳥嘴壇人工湖可以提供25萬噸。章化站的21萬噸。草屯4萬噸。可是在這過程當中其實南投縣在人工湖的規劃設計建造的過程當中其實都非常的支持跟配合。甚至連用地的取得地方也都盡量協助。所以他其實沒有面臨到很大的困難。\n\n29:12.895 --> 29:34.095\n可是現在當時的承諾好像有一點變質了。比如說那時候有說在希望未來這個人工湖除了是這樣子的一個用水的需求以外還可以成為台14線就是我們中壇公路一個很重要的一個觀光廊帶的一個亮點。\n\n29:35.396 --> 29:54.185\n可是我們看到就是說他現在快要完工了那本來規劃的一個這個叫青翠潭森林公園空間發展構想就好像沒有下文了這個部分是不是可以請部長簡要的說明一下\n\n29:55.612 --> 30:05.500\n抱歉抱歉委員這個我待會去再去了解一下好了因為我們還是知道這個因為當時這個跟輸血一樣啊我在欠貨的時候你有說先給我救啊然後你血輸給我以後我會給你買好的營養品給你補充營養讓你更好不會因為你輸血以後然後就變得很衰弱可是你做好以後那個承諾好像不見了這個部分我們特別希望我們經濟部可以馬上\n\n30:23.254 --> 30:24.576\n謝謝馬文君委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長的\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.509,"end":15.532,"text":"謝謝主席。麻煩請院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。馬文君好。院長好。院長這一次因為在最近我們前幾天也在新聞上面看到"},{"start":38.044,"end":52.913,"text":"是要包括像南投縣的人愛鄉很多的高麗菜很多的農作物都受到冰泡的那個影響甚至在半個小時之內把整片很多很多的農作物都打壞掉了"},{"start":53.533,"end":71.394,"text":"我們現在特別要提的是目前我們在全球可能氣候變遷的因素然後對於整個大環境還有這些天候不是過冷就是過熱不是水太多就是乾旱所以對農民也造成很多的衝擊跟影響"},{"start":73.256,"end":90.149,"text":"我們不管是民進黨政府也好國民黨政府也好其實都一直希望好好的來照顧我們的農民所以推了很多相關的政策可是今天我本席也要在這裡特別為農民請命因為南投是一個農業觀光的大縣"},{"start":92.15,"end":92.19,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":122.55,"end":122.69,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":141.198,"end":164.404,"text":"政府是強制性的尤其是如果有農會保險的身份一定要強制納保可是當他們保了30年40年甚至更久的時間現在卻突然被政府說你們的資格可能有疑慮比如說你有工商登記像這樣子就被取消掉了這個有沒有什麼樣的一個具體的做法"},{"start":166.645,"end":179.086,"text":"謝謝委員 農業部來說明謝謝委員我在這邊說明就是委員一直在關心這個議題那我也開了很多的相關的一個會議想辦法找到一個可以解決的方法那現在目前就是說"},{"start":180.862,"end":180.942,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":200.399,"end":202.602,"text":"我們要說的不是他有保障,因為這本來就是他應得的。"},{"start":215.86,"end":215.9,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":236.041,"end":257.819,"text":"像他們去申請工商登記他們為什麼去申請工商登記因為那時候政府要求他們必須要做標章的認定他要去申請那個標章所以他產地標章所以就要求一定要工商登記所以他們因為這樣的因素去申請工商登記他就可以"},{"start":258.719,"end":280.8,"text":"還是一樣維持農保的資格。只要跟農業相關有關的,我們會盡量來協助。因為他們是被取消的,這也是在陳情的對象以內,這是第一個。第二個,如果說他們開雜貨店,比如說像過去在很早期3、40年前,甚至4、50年前,比如說像仁愛鄉、像信義鄉、像中寮鄉、南投縣很多的偏鄉,"},{"start":281.661,"end":281.701,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":299.028,"end":319.055,"text":"不是那個雜貨店的部分因為他本身是一個不是只有跟農業有關的還有其他的部分那我還在跟委員說明就是就算他退保他還是可以去加保那如果說年齡比較大的時候我們來爭取我們來懲請的他們都是八九十歲大家可以看到這個九十幾歲的他要加保什麼"},{"start":319.835,"end":347.426,"text":"而且你們要加保的條件是他還必須要到他的地上去實際耕作一個93歲的老人家你叫他說還要再去因為那時候是政府叫他強制納保的這是第一點我再請問一下如果像現在有很多農地被拿去種電他在上面設置相關的那個太陽能那因為太陽能要對要把電賣給台電嘛"},{"start":349.167,"end":349.187,"text":"部長"},{"start":365.148,"end":387.804,"text":"他從事漁業那是地我們剛剛講的這些農民他們也都在他們的土地上面實際從事農業的使用而且真的種了一輩子他們從那時候沒有機械來代替沒有人力資源在沒有水沒有電的情況之下要爬山涉水還要去擔水那個年代他們就從事了農業"},{"start":389.485,"end":389.725,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":409.654,"end":437.393,"text":"在他的雜貨店賣他的他養雞也是農民啦可是當然這個沒有沒有確切的一個農業資格可是像他種植的他的蔬果其實都在自己的門前賣那個那個你們就把它取消了事實上他就是直接都是在從事農業的所以你們的標準很奇怪只要為了配合政府的政策只要跟光電有關的你們居然這個可以他可以他申請工商登記"},{"start":439.794,"end":465.643,"text":"我跟委員,您有一點誤解齁。漁電共生的那個光電業者是不能從事農保的。但是他跟農民合作,農民本身的農保資格不會被取消。所以還是農民對這塊地的一個根據。啊如果香菇農,在他自己的香菇的那個棚架上面,對。那他也必須要賣電,他去申請這樣子的工商登記,那他的資格算不算?"},{"start":466.584,"end":468.045,"text":"部長,你們給農民的解釋,因為在我們的法條上面清清楚楚的寫了"},{"start":487.302,"end":503.746,"text":"你只要從事,實質的從事相關的農業,其實你的農保就會存在,因為你要做這些都是為了要打假農民,可是你把真的農民全部把他們犧牲掉了,你現在在幫他們說,啊我上面種田,他當時說他們不合格的是因為他們辦了工商登記,不可以。"},{"start":510.828,"end":522.679,"text":"所以你現在如果你種了電賣還可以賣電給台電那他的資格還可以我不知道這樣的標準差異在哪裡他們也實際在從容啊這些人都還在他們都有從容啊而且攪了一輩子你們說停就停他什麼都沒有"},{"start":527.743,"end":535.269,"text":"我跟委員 我想委員非常清楚他這個 我們一般對65歲以上的話我們不會主動的去針對這個特別是年紀大的人去查核那最主要是因為當時紓困的時候他們領了這些農民的部分部長 這個都已經不是這個中間過程了我們今天是要講一個公平正義的問題當你們知道這些人是實際一輩子從農而且從年輕到老而且他繳了一輩子的農保的錢"},{"start":557.006,"end":570.548,"text":"可是他只因為他有工商登記他被你取消了你的條例裡面如果就部長剛剛講的只要他的條件其實他是有實際從農他就可以有符合農保的資格這是我們照顧農民"},{"start":572.53,"end":584.335,"text":"而且我們要有這個農保的政策的一個很重要的一個目的結果你現在可以幫他們解釋說如果你在上面因為你種電你賣電給台電那你是可以的那為這些原來的農民真正的農民你們卻不可以這樣的政府是有為有能的嗎"},{"start":595.848,"end":598.609,"text":"而且這個人數並不是很多到目前為止從今年1月到5月總共才404位他們繳了很多錢欸你政府好像在騙他一樣"},{"start":608.867,"end":628.567,"text":"是不是應該要部長不是對我們說明而是你如果真的要照顧農民你們必須解決這個問題當你可以解釋在你的估了上面架設你的光電賣電給台電可以申請工商登記而且這樣符合農保資格當你做這樣解釋的時候你就應該有辦法"},{"start":631.83,"end":631.87,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":652.152,"end":664.664,"text":"這個部分是不是可以請院長跟部長就這個部分去做全面的檢視對這個部分可以有怎麼樣的一個解套的方式來幫助我們真正的這些老農好不好"},{"start":665.712,"end":690.644,"text":"謝謝委員我覺得委員提出的這個觀察不無可以檢討之處我們常常說養殖為本農事為本養殖為本才能夠綠能加值還是要養殖或有從事農事都應該存在如果從這個標準來看它有相關我是建議剛剛我們參佐委員這個講法我們做實質上的檢討或必要解釋跟說明"},{"start":691.144,"end":719.23,"text":"好普遍要照顧到真正在還在從事農事的這些農民朋友們當你的法其實是要當我們這些政策是要照顧農民的時候沒有沒有理由我們用法來犧牲他們或者就把他們自己的權益通通把它斷送掉了而且他是真的講了好幾十年因為你不主要是為了講農民嗎包括剛剛的餘電共生我們的餘電共生大家可以回去檢視看看他事實上他的"},{"start":719.69,"end":719.95,"text":"大概多久的時間?"},{"start":745.003,"end":759.812,"text":"我想我會盡快,因為這個牽涉到一些例外條件的一個設定,因為其實我們研究了非常久,我們也解決了,像你剛才說剩下400多個,其實本來是1萬多個,所以我們有很多包括"},{"start":760.896,"end":763.178,"text":"我們希望可以很快的至少在兩個禮拜之內或一個月之內給我們一些出戶的一個方向"},{"start":790.438,"end":793.122,"text":"另外還有的就是我想要請教的也是跟農民有關的就是我們在採購農藥跟肥料的時候我們為什麼要"},{"start":806.119,"end":810.023,"text":"為什麼我們要做到這樣子?農民買個肥料跟農藥有必要這樣嗎?全世界有哪一個國家有這樣做?民主國家?部長可不可以先讓我們知道一下全世界有哪一個國家這樣做?"},{"start":828.479,"end":829.18,"text":"全世界沒有其他國家這樣做嘛,對不對?"},{"start":855.54,"end":884.806,"text":"就是要各自因為你要身份證我去買個肥料老實說因為我們剛開始這是利益良好就是像剛剛部長提到的我們希望他的農藥殘留量還有我們確保食安的問題就讓他有正確的肥料跟農藥的一個使用的方式可是事實上並不然其實他除了本末倒置或者擾民以外而且讓所有農民都覺得他們像自己像賊"},{"start":885.506,"end":885.546,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":915.586,"end":921.938,"text":"那你是不相信農民,如果你要讓農民有正確的使用肥料跟農藥的這樣子的一個概念,必須從農民教育開始。"},{"start":928.632,"end":957.312,"text":"我要跟委員說明齁榮耀實名制肥大實名制只要第一次去登記的時候需要填這些資料以後你買肥大的話就是用報一個電話號碼就可以了對啊那很奇怪啊因為你的目的部長因為你的目的是希望可以控制用藥嘛就是說我的面積原來可能五分地可是我如果賣掉三分地四分地了咧我還是一樣買那麼多啊所以你那麼那個是多此一舉我現在說的是你必須要根本解決"},{"start":958.052,"end":958.973,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":987.248,"end":1010.261,"text":"太熱太冷其實他用的農藥已經不太適用了而且我們的標準很就是我們可以使用的農藥品項很少當農民他使用無效的時候蟲還是來吃的時候或者他長不出來的時候他可能有兩種情況第一種就是違規使用"},{"start":1011.221,"end":1011.261,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1036.476,"end":1055.179,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1055.98,"end":1073.361,"text":"我要跟委員說明就是說整個的一個農藥肥料的施用我們的宣導持續透過教育訓練第二個部分就是剛才您所說的就是透過因為在實名制裡面他種的東西是會被呈現的那這樣子農藥行這些人就可以給他一個比較正確的一個建議"},{"start":1074.804,"end":1088.247,"text":"部長這些就是農民跟農藥行跟我的建議因為我們不是第一年實施他已經實施一段時間有些藥就是不行比如說為什麼日本進口的草莓我們要給他放寬為什麼日本他們可以使用我忘了那個藥名可是在國內的草莓農是不可以使用那些農藥的"},{"start":1097.849,"end":1124.316,"text":"我們為了讓日本的草莓可以進口因為被檢出一次兩次三次結果我們開放日本的草莓農可以使用那幾樣的三種吧那三種農藥可是我們國內的農民是不准的那可見他要使用的時候他有很多必須要有效農民要的是有效你規定是什麼你叫我用什麼我都可以因為他花錢他不是很愛用農藥欸因為那也是要錢欸"},{"start":1126.817,"end":1127.117,"text":"我跟..."},{"start":1145.981,"end":1146.181,"text":"部長,那個九成是問誰?"},{"start":1158.837,"end":1160.959,"text":"我剛剛有提到我是這幾天又特別接到很多的農民跟農藥行他們"},{"start":1182.555,"end":1203.15,"text":"今天他們會提出來是因為顯然你們的調查不符實際的一個狀況。我們現在特別在這裡要提出來是因為全世界沒有人這樣做。我們台灣的教育、台灣的農業、台灣的技術各方面都比全球很多很多的國家還要好。"},{"start":1203.951,"end":1229.46,"text":"我不相信我們的農民教不會我們必須要用這樣的方式要採取要去強勢要他們的個資的方式來限制我幫他講啦我本來五分地我如果賣掉三分地你也不知道啊因為你只登記那一次啊我跟你講我們的個資裡面最重要的是他種植的作物的品項那種植作物的品項對於後續的用肥用料是需要一些指導農藥行可以透過這個方式來指導他部長我再跟您說因為那個要錢"},{"start":1232.961,"end":1233.342,"text":"我現在要說的是給農民正確的一個觀念,"},{"start":1249.341,"end":1270.995,"text":"比你去做這樣的限制尤其跟人民拿個資這是非常嚴重的事情尤其是跟農民從我剛才講到現在有很多對農民的政策並不友善所以我們今天提出來是希望我們行政院還有我們農業部可以就這個部分再去做事實的一個檢視跟調整如果可以讓農民更好如果可以讓我們食安更好可以讓我們的農藥使用可以更好"},{"start":1276.738,"end":1302.866,"text":"我相信這是大家都期待的因為我們當然不希望我們吃到很多農藥可是顯然你那個效果並不是那麼好所以我們今天特別提出來是不是可以就這個部分去做調整跟改善我想後續的宣導的部分我們會再來加強然後把它的方便性更把它放就是讓農民在買農藥的時候他是完全不會有影響然後反而是對他會有幫助我們會朝這個目標來努力"},{"start":1304.609,"end":1318.009,"text":"院長也是,不要跟農民要各自,因為我們是農工商,我們買了千千百百種的東西,甚至也都有政府補助的,沒有人需要"},{"start":1318.59,"end":1318.89,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1334.802,"end":1334.962,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1352.833,"end":1352.873,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1382.182,"end":1382.342,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1403.049,"end":1428.941,"text":"報告委員第一個請農業部相關已經取得的這個農民的個資務必要安全的保護絕對不做他用維護隱私第二個這個實名制應該行之多年如果我們可以從安全考量流向去處價格的穩定或是用量的建議上有其他更適當的方式我請農業部來檢討有更好的親政變名的方式我們朝這個方向來思考"},{"start":1429.261,"end":1447.351,"text":"好這個部分因為為什麼我們特別一直提個資一方面就是我相信農業部我相信我們各部會我們相信行政院我們相信我們所有政府部門不會這麼做可是在必要的時候好像這個個資全部都流出去了他的對象很清楚"},{"start":1447.751,"end":1447.791,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":1472.512,"end":1472.532,"text":"謝謝委員長。"},{"start":1488.689,"end":1505.065,"text":"部長其實應該也參加過那茶葉其實不只是臺灣重要的一個產業尤其是南投縣非常重要的產業那近幾年過去老實說兩岸關係還不錯的時候有很多茶葉其實可以銷到大陸"},{"start":1506.286,"end":1506.386,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1522.546,"end":1522.626,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1550.948,"end":1551.148,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1576.212,"end":1576.272,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1594.977,"end":1609.392,"text":"他可能要縮小規模,這個部分是不是可以在這裡特別請院長跟部長可以多做協助,因為他剛開始設計的規模大概就是會跟去年前年一樣嘛,在疫情過後好不容易又恢復了。"},{"start":1610.986,"end":1633.791,"text":"我跟委員說明,像這個部分我們一定全力支持,特別是查柏蘭會其實在這幾年來已經非常非常有名。然後我所了解就是說他除了這個計畫以外他好像還有提另外一個計畫。那我會後我會去檢視,就是我們一定讓這個活動順利的舉辦為前提。那如果說相關的經費如果真的是有不足的地方我們再看怎麼樣的方式來協助。"},{"start":1634.571,"end":1662.859,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝部長因為我們現在是希望樂見各個產業真的有些像觀光產業其實現在都勒緊褲帶有很多人其實都沒有辦法好好的去做生意那對我對他們來說都是很大的影響那如果這個部分只要花一點錢就可以那我們還是謝謝部長剛剛的承諾那我們也希望說今年因為很快就要辦了嘛是不是可以盡快有一個"},{"start":1664.079,"end":1677.742,"text":"我會請同仁就是說實際的部分看還有怎麼樣的一個缺口,我們再來想辦法協助。他們這個活動辦得很好,我們都可以去參加。好,謝謝。代替縣長,因為縣政府主辦,那在這裡也代替縣長還有我們所有的我們的茶農,很熱誠的邀請院長還有部長還有所有的部會,大家可以一起去參加。"},{"start":1688.505,"end":1708.454,"text":"當然還有我們的院長因為他也非常熟悉對南投尤其在農業這一塊那歡迎大家因為就是讓農民更好因為不然他們要面對的挑戰也太多了另外就是還有我們鳥嘴壇人工湖的部分"},{"start":1709.114,"end":1709.314,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1726.366,"end":1752.175,"text":"每日鳥嘴壇人工湖可以提供25萬噸。章化站的21萬噸。草屯4萬噸。可是在這過程當中其實南投縣在人工湖的規劃設計建造的過程當中其實都非常的支持跟配合。甚至連用地的取得地方也都盡量協助。所以他其實沒有面臨到很大的困難。"},{"start":1752.895,"end":1774.095,"text":"可是現在當時的承諾好像有一點變質了。比如說那時候有說在希望未來這個人工湖除了是這樣子的一個用水的需求以外還可以成為台14線就是我們中壇公路一個很重要的一個觀光廊帶的一個亮點。"},{"start":1775.396,"end":1794.185,"text":"可是我們看到就是說他現在快要完工了那本來規劃的一個這個叫青翠潭森林公園空間發展構想就好像沒有下文了這個部分是不是可以請部長簡要的說明一下"},{"start":1795.612,"end":1805.5,"text":"抱歉抱歉委員這個我待會去再去了解一下好了因為我們還是知道這個因為當時這個跟輸血一樣啊我在欠貨的時候你有說先給我救啊然後你血輸給我以後我會給你買好的營養品給你補充營養讓你更好不會因為你輸血以後然後就變得很衰弱可是你做好以後那個承諾好像不見了這個部分我們特別希望我們經濟部可以馬上"},{"start":1823.254,"end":1824.576,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長的"}]}}}}