{"id":154397,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154397","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68af8b7e2df94a56ec96cd03fb23edab3c9084592ae7b5b568b343b689e4d41e2da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"16:12:38 - 16:29:32","影片長度":"00:16:54","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T16:12:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T16:29:32+08:00","duration":1014,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":500,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（16時12分）謝謝主席副院長。是不是麻煩有請行政院卓院長？"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：卓院長好。賴清德總統在競選總統的時候，提出他的能源政策，作為總統所提名的行政院院長，我相信您最重要的任務就是要實踐賴總統跟全體國民所提出來的政見，其中非常重要的一環，也是今天大家很關心的事情，就是能源政策的問題，我今天要請教院長的是，這個路徑到底要怎麼樣實踐？這一、兩天總統府環境變遷委員會副召集人童子賢童董事長，他對於我們有關低碳發電的這件事情上面，其實提出了滿強烈的批評。我知道童董事長是一個非常有社會責任感的企業家，我個人也非常的尊敬他。童董事長說馬政府卸任的時候，低碳發電19.4%；蔡總統卸任的時候，低碳發電只有16.9%，童董事長的數據正不正確？"],["陳次長正祺：要回去確認。"],["黃委員國昌：我喜歡討論事情從事實開始，因為這樣的發言事實上是代表我們在淨零碳排的道路上面不進反退嘛！那我們就先從事實開始，童董事長這樣子的數據，剛剛……對不起，您是……"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，經濟部次長陳正祺。"],["黃委員國昌：次長嘛！次長說你不知道正不正確，還要回去再確認，是嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好。我跟次長報告，他的數據是正確的，因為他大概就是把火力發電、燃煤跟燃氣加在一起，用100%去減掉火力發電的數字，就是他所謂低碳發電的比例，我把它全部都列出來了，這是從經濟部能源署的網站下面下載的數字。這個是過去蔡政府所留下來的問題，我沒有要苛責賴清德總統，但我們在討論問題的時候，知道我們今天從哪裡出發非常、非常地重要。","我首先要請教卓院長的是，你認為在賴總統第一任的任期，也就是到2028年的時候，這一個非低碳發電的比例，也就是所謂火力發電的占比會降到多少？你們現在接手，今年1月到4月是81.57%，你們現在目標的規劃是要降到多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，剛剛前面那個數字，因為我們現在的火力發電也是逐漸要降低，燃氣會增加，所以理論上是不應該出現，我到現在沒有看過這樣的數字，我們可以重新回頭去查……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，請你跟我講，你們到2028卸任的時候，你的目標值要降到多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在有幾個火力發電廠要停下來沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的目標值要降到多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個計算之後再跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內書面回復我可以嗎？因為我們現在要討論的事情，我沒有要在比較抽象的政策面上跟你討論，因為抽象的政策面上賴總統提出他的政見，他也當選了，就要實踐他的政見。我們現在關心的是立法院監督，我們要知道路徑怎麼達成嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["黃委員國昌：否則的話只是在開空頭支票嘛！好，第二個部分，你真的看二氧化碳的碳排放量，其實你也可以看得出來，從剛剛的比例到二氧化碳的碳排放量，童子賢董事長的批評其實沒有說錯，整個趨勢、整個數字全部都是一致的。我非常支持發展再生能源，所以我對於現在再生能源發展的狀況非常地關心。","蔡英文總統說，2025再生能源要達到20%，去年的經濟部也承認這是一個沒有辦法達到的政見，確定跳票了，賴清德總統也很坦率地承認這件事情做不到，他接棒下去做，要2026年才可以實踐。我相信我對於蔡英文總統的承諾，以及賴清德總統的政見，這些數字整理都不會錯，這個是白紙黑字的東西。但我現在關心的事情是什麼？政治人物選舉的時候，政見開支票，我們就要努力地去達成，這才是民主政治，這才是責任政治，我們講要達成不是一句我努力就好，人民要看到的是你努力的方法，以及你努力的路徑。我這樣說沒有錯吧？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們來看一下努力的路徑。到目前為止，我們2024年再生能源的發電量占10.7%，這個一樣是經濟部能源署統計的資料，我下面的困惑是2026年要到20%，現在是占10.7%，我們2026年要到20%，也就是將近還有10%，精準地講是9.3%要達成。這個路徑要怎麼達成？我把再生能源的種類全部都很詳細地把它畫出來了，我具體地請教，你們到2026年要達成20%再生能源的路徑當中，你們估計要達到20%，其中太陽光電要占百分之幾？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，這個會delay的原因主要是因為當時……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我沒有問你delay的原因，我也沒有怪你們，跳票的是蔡英文，我沒有怪在賴清德頭上，現在我在問的是賴清德說他2026要達標，我們就具體地講，現在只有10.7%，還差9.3%嘛，那你的太陽光電在你20%的占比當中要占多少？"],["陳次長正祺：我們未來會在風電的併聯上面……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我請教你的是太陽光電，你打算占比要多少？"],["陳次長正祺：太陽光電我們大概會到20GW，那麼……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，20GW是20GW喔，現在我說，在你2026再生能源占比要20%，沒有錯吧？好，在你的再生能源要占的20%裡面，太陽光電要占百分之幾，這是我的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，再生能源的種類是越來越多發展……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我很具體地來問，太陽光電要占百分之幾？請說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請國發會稍微解釋一下。"],["黃委員國昌：請說明太陽光電要占百分之幾？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是只有太陽光電，而是整個再生能源的種類很多。"],["黃委員國昌：是，但我不喜歡混起來講。"],["卓院長榮泰：其他的類項如果增加，太陽光電……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你每一類要到百分之幾，我希望跟國人說清楚講明白，我知道再生能源有很多，所以我把所有的數字都列出來了，這是經濟部能源署網站公告的，我今天的問題很簡單，賴清德總統開了政見，我們大家都願意相信他，他要努力地去達成，政見達成要有路徑，剛剛院長也表示同意嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在再生能源2026年要到20%，其中太陽光電，你們目前的施政計畫是占百分之幾？這個問題很具體，一點都不複雜、也不困難，太陽光電要占百分之幾？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告一下，我們現在談的是2026年，現在是2024年，所以還有兩年的時間，所以我們國發會也在努力幫經濟部再找新的能源。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟你報告一下，現在國內已經有廠商開始安裝由瓦斯轉藍綠氫的綠能，這個藍綠氫綠能已經實際運作……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你剛剛所講的那個新技術，你打算要占百分之幾？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們打算在2026年產生大約是1.5GW，為什麼……"],["黃委員國昌：1.5GW在裡面的發電占比占百分之幾？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為它的建置在一年內……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個數字我們算出來再給委員……"],["黃委員國昌：真的是！我這樣說好了，施政不能只喊口號，施政要有路徑，我希望達到20%，現在是10.7%……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，可是……"],["黃委員國昌：我們還有9.3%要make up，太陽光電打算占百分之幾？風電打算占百分之幾？地熱要占百分之幾？這樣子一個施政路徑的藍圖，難道不應該讓社會知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員理解，我一句話，我這兩天跟劉主委談到我們很多綠能的發展，我們有很多項別，我會跟他去做很多的瞭解，之後我們才訂一個未來可以看得到的，我想這個速度不會很慢，會讓大家知道……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：國發會再說一下，我們馬上會去進行瞭解，已經安排好時間。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們一個月會給你最新的……"],["黃委員國昌：好，一個月，因為這個要具體的問，我們才能實事求是、就是論事的討論問題嘛！要不然全部都在打高空、開支票，我相信、我也希望達到20%，但我為什麼要具體地問太陽光電占百分之幾、風電占百分之幾、剛剛您所講的新的技術要占百分之幾？因為我們日後都要檢驗的嘛！好，我為什麼……"],["卓院長榮泰：統整出來以後跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：對、對，我為什麼關心太陽光電要占百分之幾？這是一個很關鍵的問題，為什麼我這樣說？來，看一下，目前太陽能光電發電的裝置容量是12.96GW，最新的數據到4月，這應該不會錯，全部都是經濟部的數據。好，在這樣的情況之下，目前太陽光電在我們發電量的占比是4.7%，到2026年……我剛剛為什麼要問這個問題？我需要知道你們打算占的比例是多少，我才能夠去估計你要再多多少GW才能夠達到這個percentage，這是一個非常率直而且非常重要的問題，為什麼是非常重要的問題？我們在討論目標的時候，不是喊口號就會到，而是要實踐，所以我需要知道你太陽光電的占比要多少，你要有多少的發電裝置容量才可以make up你希望達到的目標，我相信我在這邊問的、說的都是合情合理，也是人民所關心的，但是這件事情在政府的政策上為什麼重要？因為我們需要知道我們要達到那個目標，還需要投入多少土地。1公頃可以發多少MW？您知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們跟委員報告過了，如果其他能源可以發展起來，這個會改變，所以我們盤點以後會跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我的意思是說你不能只有目標，你要有路徑，為什麼這件事情重要？我直接show下面……"],["卓院長榮泰：路徑很多樣……"],["黃委員國昌：因為我要知道的是什麼？我要知道的是2026年的時候，我們盤點現在的狀況，到2026年為止，我要達到太陽光電的發電量，我需要知道一件事情，還需要多少土地？這個對施政重不重要？當然重要，為什麼重要？我跟院長報告，能源用地白皮書──光電篇，去年經濟部說年底的時候要公布，到現在還沒有公布，這個能源用地的白皮書，請問什麼時候可以公布？這個是你們網頁上面寫的，嚴謹制定綠能發展區，將能源用地白皮書規劃指引。這個白皮書，我到今天不斷地搜尋，還沒有公布，請問什麼時候公布？這會牽涉到你的目標，到底有沒有realistic？你的土地規劃到底是什麼？還需要多少公頃？打算要在哪裡？這不是行政院每天應該要做的事情嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：我們今年底以前會公布。"],["黃委員國昌：今年底才會公布喔？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["黃委員國昌：還需要這麼久？整整delay了一年，沒關係，我拭目以待，因為你們土地一定要盤點出來，要不然大家怎麼知道怎麼樣支持、配合我們政府的施政計畫，達到這個目標；要不然一天到晚在喊20%、20%、20%，等到2028年的時候才說對不起，沒有做到，基於什麼樣的原因。我們現在就要知道你的施政藍圖是什麼、你的施政路徑是什麼、你的施政計畫是什麼、需要多少GW、需要多少土地、政府盤點土地的結果是如何，我相信這都是非常重要而且非常理性的公共政策討論，完全沒有任何政治口水在裡面。我希望剛剛院長所承諾的一個月時間告訴全體國人，你的路徑是什麼，今年年底以前把能源用地白皮書公布出來，可以承諾嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：可以，而且我們需要跟社會各界溝通。"],["黃委員國昌：下一個很重要的問題，我支持發展綠能，但我痛恨政治權貴攀炎附勢、違法濫權、胡搞瞎搞，力暘集團就是一個最典型的例子，透過偽造變造的同意書，結果當初農委會跟它講，你根本不符合但書，不可用小二甲破碎的農地，能源局也跟它講，你根本就不可以納入110年的計畫，你是109年搞的事情。結果我們的中央到地方通風報信、量身打造，幫這個綠色權貴搞解套方案，然後檢察官很火大起訴了，不法獲利上百億，倒填日期139案，不實文件比例達到96.15%，透過騙來的不實資料、偽造變造文件取得的電業籌設許可，絕對是一個違法的行政處分。在舊的政府要下臺以前，我問得非常的清楚，經濟部跟我說他們絕對會做行政調查，該撤銷就要撤銷，請問目前調查的進度，違法取得的電業籌設許可──騙來的、違法的、現在圖利被起訴的違法電業籌設許可要不要撤銷？"],["陳次長正祺：我們目前已經全面停止力暘申請案的行政作業。"],["黃委員國昌：那是另外一回事喔！前面用偽造變造的文書騙到的電業籌設許可是不是違法的？"],["陳次長正祺：依照行政程序法的規定，我們大概會依法來辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：依法來辦理是依法要撤銷，還需要多久？"],["陳次長正祺：依照判決來決定。"],["黃委員國昌：依照判決不對喔！現在的判決是刑事司法，有沒有刑事司法有貪污治罪條例的構成要件，你剛剛自己說行政程序是依照行政程序法，這沒有判決的問題啊！"],["陳次長正祺：我們要看它……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候要撤銷？"],["陳次長正祺：我們要依照法院認定的事實來辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼叫做法院認定的事實？你們行政調查報告還要做多久？承諾的行政調查報告還要做多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政部分已經全面停止……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起！行政調查報告還要做多久？做出來沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：次長說待司法判決……"],["黃委員國昌：行政調查報告還要做多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：它已經全面停止了。"],["陳次長正祺：停止了，我們現在……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起！我問的是行政調查報告還要做多久，這是你們承諾過要做的，我剛剛都show出來了，不要把刑事案件與違法行政處分的撤銷混在一起，我的問題很具體，行政調查報告還要做多久？"],["陳次長正祺：這個還要再跟臺南市政府一起來調查。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你說要跟臺南市政府一起調查，行政調查啟動了沒有？"],["陳次長正祺：啟動了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，還要做多久？我老實跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們把前面停止的原因……"],["黃委員國昌：行政調查就好好去調查，但是對於這種違法使用偽造文件的綠色權貴，絕對不能放水，可不可以承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：依法處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，行政調查報告還要多久？你不要跟我說要做2年、要做4年、要做5年，行政調查報告還要多久？請教最後一個問題，你回答完就結束，不好意思！跟副院長致歉。"],["卓院長榮泰：依法處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的答案只有依法辦理？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢，7月2日（星期二）上午9時繼續開會，進行經濟組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（16時29分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴士葆","蘇清泉","顏寬恒","馬文君","謝衣鳯","丁學忠","郭昱晴","陳素月","黃秀芳","蔡其昌","張啓楷","林德福","黃國昌"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002","1136401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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00:00:49,366\n黃國昌總統賴清德在競選總統的時候提出他的能源政策那作為總統所提名的行政院院長我相信您最重要的任務就是要實踐賴總統他跟全體國民所提出來的政見其中一個非常重要的一環也是今天大家很關心的事情就是能源政策的問題我今天要請教院長的是這個路徑到底要怎麼樣實踐\n\n3\n00:00:51,530 --> 00:01:01,860\n這兩天我們的總統府環境變遷的委員會副召集人童子賢童董事長他對於我們在有關於低碳發電的這件事情上面\n\n4\n00:01:02,662 --> 00:01:21,905\n其實提出了蠻強烈的批評我知道童董事長是一個非常有社會企業社會責任感的企業家我個人也非常的尊敬他童董事長說馬政府卸任的時候低碳排電19.4蔡總統卸任的時候低碳發電只有16.9童董事長的數據政府正確\n\n5\n00:01:25,672 --> 00:01:49,888\n我喜歡討論事情從事實開始啦因為這樣子的發言喔事實上是代表了我們在淨零太盤的道路上面不進反退嘛那我們就先從事實開始統統市長這樣子的數據剛剛...對不起您是...市長嘛市長說你不知道正不正確你還要再回去再確認是嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:51,348 --> 00:02:11,735\n是好來我跟市長報告他的數據是正確的因為他大概就是把火力發電燃煤跟燃氣加在一起啦用百分之百去減掉我們火力發電的數字就他所謂第一態發電的比例我把它全部都列出來了這個是從經濟部能源署的網站下面下來的數字這個\n\n7\n00:02:13,456 --> 00:02:42,660\n是過去蔡政府所留下來的問題我沒有要苛責賴清德總統但我們在討論問題的時候知道我們今天從哪裡出發非常非常的重要我首先要請教卓院長的是你認為在賴總統第一任的任期也就是到2028年的時候這一個非低碳排電的比例也就是所謂火力發電的占比會降到多少\n\n8\n00:02:43,823 --> 00:03:10,948\n你們現在接手的時候,到今年1月到4月是81.57%嘛,你們現在目標的規劃是要降到多少?報告委員,剛剛前面那個數字,因為我們現在的火力發電是逐漸要降低的,燃氣會增加的,所以理論上是不應該出現,所以我到現在沒有看過這樣的數字,我們可以重新去回頭去查沒有關係啊,就請你跟我講說,你們到2028卸任的時候,你的目標值要降到多少?\n\n9\n00:03:11,788 --> 00:03:34,417\n我們現在有幾個火力發電廠要停下來是沒有錯所以你的目標值要降到多少一個禮拜之內書面回覆我可以嗎因為我們現在要討論的事情我沒有要在比較抽象的政策面上跟你討論因為抽象的政策面上賴總統提出他的政見他也當選了嘛就要實踐他的政見嘛\n\n10\n00:03:35,037 --> 00:03:58,556\n那我們現在關心的是立法院監督我們要知道路徑怎麼達成嘛。否則的話只是在開空投支票嘛。第二個部分你真的看二氧化碳的碳排放量其實你也可以看得出來從剛剛的比例到二氧化碳的碳排放量童子賢董事長他的批評其實沒有說錯整個趨勢整個數字全部都是一致的\n\n11\n00:03:59,332 --> 00:04:23,312\n我非常支持發展再生能源所以我對於再生能源我們現在發展的狀況非常的關心蔡英文總統說2025再生能源要達到20%去年的經濟部也承認了這是一個沒有辦法達到的政見確定跳票了賴清德總統也很坦率的承認了這件事情做不到啦\n\n12\n00:04:24,363 --> 00:04:51,645\n做不到他接棒下去做要2026年才可以實踐我相信我對於蔡英文總統的承諾以及賴清德總統的政見這些數字整理都不會錯這個是白紙黑字啊的東西好但我現在在關心的事情是什麼政治人物選舉的時候政見開支票我們就要努力的去達成這才是民主政治這才是責任政治\n\n13\n00:04:52,492 --> 00:05:09,100\n我們講要達成不是一句我努力就好人民要看到的是你努力的方法以及你努力的路徑我這樣說沒有錯吧院長好我們來看一下努力的路徑到目前為止我們2024年再生能源的發電量佔10.7%這個一樣是經濟部能源署統計的資料我現在下面的困惑是2026年要到20%\n\n14\n00:05:20,742 --> 00:05:23,783\n我把再生人員的種類全部都很詳細的把它畫出來了我具體的請教\n\n15\n00:05:43,818 --> 00:05:43,998\n報告委員\n\n16\n00:05:56,980 --> 00:06:21,480\n這個會delay的原因主要是因為對不起我沒有問你delay的原因啊我也沒有怪你們嘛跳票的原因跳票的是蔡英文我沒有怪在賴清德頭上啦現在我在問的是賴清德說他2026要達標嘛我們就具體的講現在只有10.7還差9.3嘛那你的太陽光電在你20%的占比當中要占多少\n\n17\n00:06:22,691 --> 00:06:47,497\n我們未來會在風電的並聯上面呢...對不起我請教你的是太陽光電你打算佔比要多少?太陽光電我們大概會到20個Gigawatt那麼...沒有沒有20個Gigawatt是20個Gigawatt喔現在我說在你2026再生能源佔比要百分之二十沒有錯吧?好在你是再生能源二十裡面太陽光電要佔幾%這是我的問題\n\n18\n00:06:49,364 --> 00:06:58,551\n報告委員,再生能源的種類是愈來愈多的發展。是!所以我很具體的來問,說太陽光電要佔幾%。請說明,太陽光電要佔幾%。是整個再生能源的種類會很多。但我不喜歡混起來講嘛。沒有關係,你每一類要到幾%我希望跟國人說清楚講明白。我知道再生能源很多,\n\n19\n00:07:14,262 --> 00:07:32,589\n所以我把所有的數字都列出來了這個是經濟部能源署的網站公告的嘛我今天的問題很簡單賴慶德總統開了政見我們大家都願意相信他他要努力的去達成政見達成要有路徑剛剛院長你也表示同意嘛現在再生能源20%2026年要到20%\n\n20\n00:07:36,741 --> 00:07:44,512\n其中太陽光電你們目前的施政計畫是佔幾%?這個問題很具體一點都不複雜也不困難太陽光電要佔幾%?\n\n21\n00:07:46,414 --> 00:07:59,958\n跟委員報告一下,我們現在談的是2026年,現在是2024年,還有兩年的時間。所以我們國發會也在努力幫經濟部再找新的能源。跟你報告一下,現在國內已經有廠商開始安裝瓦斯轉藍綠氫的一個綠能。這個藍綠氫的綠能已經實際運作。我們打算在2026年產生大約是1.5GW。\n\n22\n00:08:14,087 --> 00:08:14,650\n對,為什麼因為他的建制在一年內\n\n23\n00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:39,053\n我這樣說好了啦施政不能只喊口號施政要有路徑我希望達到20%現在是10.7%我們還有9.3%要makeup9.3%要Makeup我太陽光電打算佔幾%風電打算佔幾%地熱要佔幾%這樣子的一個施政路徑的藍圖難道不應該讓社會知道嗎\n\n24\n00:08:45,638 --> 00:08:45,978\n需要多久?需要多久?\n\n25\n00:09:11,462 --> 00:09:35,427\n我們一個月給你一個月齁因為這個要具體的問我們才能實事求是就事論事的討論問題嘛要不然全部都在打高空開支票我相信我也希望達到20%但我為什麼要具體的問太陽光電佔幾%風電佔幾%剛剛您所講的新的技術要佔幾%因為我們日後都要檢驗的嘛好我為什麼關心太陽光電要佔幾%這是一個很關鍵的問題為什麼我這樣說來看一下\n\n26\n00:09:41,408 --> 00:10:10,376\n我目前太陽能光電發電的裝置容量是12.96GW最新的數據到4月這應該不會錯全部都是經濟部的數據好在這樣的情況之下目前太陽光電我們發電量的佔比是4.7%到2026年我剛剛為什麼要問這個問題我需要知道你們打算佔的比例是多少我才能夠去估計說你要再多多少GW才能夠達到這個percentage\n\n27\n00:10:11,136 --> 00:10:37,714\n這是一個非常、這是一個非常率直而且非常重要的問題。為什麼非常重要的問題?我們在討論目標的時候,不是喊口號就會到,要實踐嘛。所以我需要知道說,欸?那你太陽光列佔比要多少?你要有多少的發電裝置容量才可以makeup你希望達到的目標?我相信我在這邊問的、說的都是合情合理,也是人民所關心的。\n\n28\n00:10:38,214 --> 00:10:53,102\n但是這件事情在政府的政策上為什麼重要?因為我們需要知道我們要達到那個目標還需要投入多少土地?一公頃可以發多少MW?\n\n29\n00:10:54,246 --> 00:11:22,002\n您知道嗎?所以我們跟委員報告過了,我們如果其他的能源可以發展起來,這個會改變,所以我們就盤點吧,能源報告嘛。我的意思是說你不能只有目標,你要有路徑,為什麼這件事情重要我直接秀下面,因為我要知道的是什麼?我要知道的是2026年的時候,到2026年為止,我們盤點現在的狀況,到2026年為止,我要達到這個太陽光電的發電量,我需要知道一件事情,還需要多少土地?\n\n30\n00:11:23,243 --> 00:11:38,562\n這個對施政重不重要當然重要為什麼重要我跟院長報告能源用地白皮書光電篇去年經濟部說年底的時候要公布到現在還沒有公布這個能源用地的白皮書請問什麼時候可以公布\n\n31\n00:11:40,977 --> 00:12:07,804\n這個是你們網頁上面寫的喔嚴謹制定綠能發展區將能源用地白皮書規劃執引這個白皮書我到今天不斷的搜尋還沒有公布請問什麼時候公布這會牽涉到你的目標到底有沒有realistic嘛你的土地規劃到底是什麼嘛還需要多少公頃嘛打算要在哪裡嘛這不是行政院每天應該要做的事情嗎\n\n32\n00:12:08,632 --> 00:12:19,812\n我們今年底以前會公布今年底才會公布喔還需要這麼久整整delay了一年啊沒關係啊我拭目以待啊因為你們土地一定要盤點出來嘛\n\n33\n00:12:21,260 --> 00:12:49,195\n要不然大家怎麼知道怎麼樣支持怎麼配合我們政府的施政計畫達到這個目標嗎?要不然一天到晚在喊20%、20%、20%然後等到2028年的時候才說對不起沒有做到基於什麼樣子的原因?我們現在就要知道你的施政藍圖是什麼?你的施政路徑是什麼?你的施政計畫是什麼?需要多少Gigawatts?需要多少土地?政府盤點土地的結果是如何?我相信\n\n34\n00:12:50,155 --> 00:13:09,929\n這都是非常重要而且非常理性的公共政策討論。完全沒有任何政治口水在裡面。我希望剛剛院長所承諾的一個月的時間告訴全體國人你的路徑是什麼?今年年底以前把這個能源用地排比書公布出來可以承諾嗎?\n\n35\n00:13:13,188 --> 00:13:39,256\n下一個重要的問題我支持發展綠能但我痛恨政治權貴攀岩覆世違法濫權胡搞瞎搞麗陽集團就是一個最典型的例子透過偽造變造透過偽造變造的同意書結果什麼當初農委會跟他講你根本不符合淡書不可以用小二甲破碎的農地\n\n36\n00:13:40,831 --> 00:14:08,110\n南院局也跟他講你根本就不可以納入110年的計畫你是109年搞的事情啊結果我們的中央到地方通風報信量身打造幫這個綠色的權貴搞解套方案然後呢檢察官很火大起訴了不法獲利上百億稻田日期139萬不實文件比例達到96.15\n\n37\n00:14:11,667 --> 00:14:26,589\n後過遍來不實的資料、偽造、變造的文件取得的電業籌設許可,這絕對是一個違法的行政處分。在舊的政府要下台以前,我問得非常的清楚,\n\n38\n00:14:27,778 --> 00:14:44,929\n經濟部他跟我說他們絕對會做行政調查該撤銷就要撤銷來請問目前調查的進度違法取得的電業籌設許可騙來的違法的現在圖利被起訴的違法的電業籌設許可要不要撤銷\n\n39\n00:14:46,940 --> 00:15:04,908\n我們目前已經全面停止立揚申請案的行政作業。那是另外一回事喔!全面用偽造變造的文書騙到了電業從事的許可是不是違法的?那依照行政程序法的規定我們大概會依法來辦理。依法來辦理是依法要撤銷嗎?還需要多久?依照判決來決定。\n\n40\n00:15:06,138 --> 00:15:28,287\n依照判決不對喔現在的判決是刑事司法有沒有刑事司法有貪污自罪條例的構成要件行政程序法你剛剛自己說的行政程序法是依照行政程序法這沒有判決的問題阿怎麼說要撤銷我們要依照法院認定的事實來辦理什麼叫做法院認定的事實阿你們行政調查報告還要做多久\n\n41\n00:16:48,491 --> 00:16:48,792\n好,謝謝,謝謝王委員,謝謝左院長。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8910\t14495\t謝謝主席副院長。是不是麻煩有請行政院院長卓院長。來請卓院長備詢。\n24754\t49366\t黃國昌總統賴清德在競選總統的時候提出他的能源政策那作為總統所提名的行政院院長我相信您最重要的任務就是要實踐賴總統他跟全體國民所提出來的政見其中一個非常重要的一環也是今天大家很關心的事情就是能源政策的問題我今天要請教院長的是這個路徑到底要怎麼樣實踐\n51530\t61860\t這兩天我們的總統府環境變遷的委員會副召集人童子賢童董事長他對於我們在有關於低碳發電的這件事情上面\n62662\t81905\t其實提出了蠻強烈的批評我知道童董事長是一個非常有社會企業社會責任感的企業家我個人也非常的尊敬他童董事長說馬政府卸任的時候低碳排電19.4蔡總統卸任的時候低碳發電只有16.9童董事長的數據政府正確\n85672\t109888\t我喜歡討論事情從事實開始啦因為這樣子的發言喔事實上是代表了我們在淨零太盤的道路上面不進反退嘛那我們就先從事實開始統統市長這樣子的數據剛剛...對不起您是...市長嘛市長說你不知道正不正確你還要再回去再確認是嗎?\n111348\t131735\t是好來我跟市長報告他的數據是正確的因為他大概就是把火力發電燃煤跟燃氣加在一起啦用百分之百去減掉我們火力發電的數字就他所謂第一態發電的比例我把它全部都列出來了這個是從經濟部能源署的網站下面下來的數字這個\n133456\t162660\t是過去蔡政府所留下來的問題我沒有要苛責賴清德總統但我們在討論問題的時候知道我們今天從哪裡出發非常非常的重要我首先要請教卓院長的是你認為在賴總統第一任的任期也就是到2028年的時候這一個非低碳排電的比例也就是所謂火力發電的占比會降到多少\n163823\t190948\t你們現在接手的時候,到今年1月到4月是81.57%嘛,你們現在目標的規劃是要降到多少?報告委員,剛剛前面那個數字,因為我們現在的火力發電是逐漸要降低的,燃氣會增加的,所以理論上是不應該出現,所以我到現在沒有看過這樣的數字,我們可以重新去回頭去查沒有關係啊,就請你跟我講說,你們到2028卸任的時候,你的目標值要降到多少?\n191788\t214417\t我們現在有幾個火力發電廠要停下來是沒有錯所以你的目標值要降到多少一個禮拜之內書面回覆我可以嗎因為我們現在要討論的事情我沒有要在比較抽象的政策面上跟你討論因為抽象的政策面上賴總統提出他的政見他也當選了嘛就要實踐他的政見嘛\n215037\t238556\t那我們現在關心的是立法院監督我們要知道路徑怎麼達成嘛。否則的話只是在開空投支票嘛。第二個部分你真的看二氧化碳的碳排放量其實你也可以看得出來從剛剛的比例到二氧化碳的碳排放量童子賢董事長他的批評其實沒有說錯整個趨勢整個數字全部都是一致的\n239332\t263312\t我非常支持發展再生能源所以我對於再生能源我們現在發展的狀況非常的關心蔡英文總統說2025再生能源要達到20%去年的經濟部也承認了這是一個沒有辦法達到的政見確定跳票了賴清德總統也很坦率的承認了這件事情做不到啦\n264363\t291645\t做不到他接棒下去做要2026年才可以實踐我相信我對於蔡英文總統的承諾以及賴清德總統的政見這些數字整理都不會錯這個是白紙黑字啊的東西好但我現在在關心的事情是什麼政治人物選舉的時候政見開支票我們就要努力的去達成這才是民主政治這才是責任政治\n292492\t309100\t我們講要達成不是一句我努力就好人民要看到的是你努力的方法以及你努力的路徑我這樣說沒有錯吧院長好我們來看一下努力的路徑到目前為止我們2024年再生能源的發電量佔10.7%這個一樣是經濟部能源署統計的資料我現在下面的困惑是2026年要到20%\n320742\t323783\t我把再生人員的種類全部都很詳細的把它畫出來了我具體的請教\n343818\t343998\t報告委員\n356980\t381480\t這個會delay的原因主要是因為對不起我沒有問你delay的原因啊我也沒有怪你們嘛跳票的原因跳票的是蔡英文我沒有怪在賴清德頭上啦現在我在問的是賴清德說他2026要達標嘛我們就具體的講現在只有10.7還差9.3嘛那你的太陽光電在你20%的占比當中要占多少\n382691\t407497\t我們未來會在風電的並聯上面呢...對不起我請教你的是太陽光電你打算佔比要多少?太陽光電我們大概會到20個Gigawatt那麼...沒有沒有20個Gigawatt是20個Gigawatt喔現在我說在你2026再生能源佔比要百分之二十沒有錯吧?好在你是再生能源二十裡面太陽光電要佔幾%這是我的問題\n409364\t418551\t報告委員,再生能源的種類是愈來愈多的發展。是!所以我很具體的來問,說太陽光電要佔幾%。請說明,太陽光電要佔幾%。是整個再生能源的種類會很多。但我不喜歡混起來講嘛。沒有關係,你每一類要到幾%我希望跟國人說清楚講明白。我知道再生能源很多,\n434262\t452589\t所以我把所有的數字都列出來了這個是經濟部能源署的網站公告的嘛我今天的問題很簡單賴慶德總統開了政見我們大家都願意相信他他要努力的去達成政見達成要有路徑剛剛院長你也表示同意嘛現在再生能源20%2026年要到20%\n456741\t464512\t其中太陽光電你們目前的施政計畫是佔幾%?這個問題很具體一點都不複雜也不困難太陽光電要佔幾%?\n466414\t479958\t跟委員報告一下,我們現在談的是2026年,現在是2024年,還有兩年的時間。所以我們國發會也在努力幫經濟部再找新的能源。跟你報告一下,現在國內已經有廠商開始安裝瓦斯轉藍綠氫的一個綠能。這個藍綠氫的綠能已經實際運作。我們打算在2026年產生大約是1.5GW。\n494087\t494650\t對,為什麼因為他的建制在一年內\n501240\t519053\t我這樣說好了啦施政不能只喊口號施政要有路徑我希望達到20%現在是10.7%我們還有9.3%要make up9.3%要Make up我太陽光電打算佔幾%風電打算佔幾%地熱要佔幾%這樣子的一個施政路徑的藍圖難道不應該讓社會知道嗎\n525638\t525978\t需要多久?需要多久?\n551462\t575427\t我們一個月給你一個月齁因為這個要具體的問我們才能實事求是就事論事的討論問題嘛要不然全部都在打高空開支票我相信我也希望達到20%但我為什麼要具體的問太陽光電佔幾%風電佔幾%剛剛您所講的新的技術要佔幾%因為我們日後都要檢驗的嘛好我為什麼關心太陽光電要佔幾%這是一個很關鍵的問題為什麼我這樣說來看一下\n581408\t610376\t我目前太陽能光電發電的裝置容量是12.96GW最新的數據到4月這應該不會錯全部都是經濟部的數據好在這樣的情況之下目前太陽光電我們發電量的佔比是4.7%到2026年我剛剛為什麼要問這個問題我需要知道你們打算佔的比例是多少我才能夠去估計說你要再多多少GW才能夠達到這個percentage\n611136\t637714\t這是一個非常、這是一個非常率直而且非常重要的問題。為什麼非常重要的問題?我們在討論目標的時候,不是喊口號就會到,要實踐嘛。所以我需要知道說,欸?那你太陽光列佔比要多少?你要有多少的發電裝置容量才可以make up你希望達到的目標?我相信我在這邊問的、說的都是合情合理,也是人民所關心的。\n638214\t653102\t但是這件事情在政府的政策上為什麼重要?因為我們需要知道我們要達到那個目標還需要投入多少土地?一公頃可以發多少MW?\n654246\t682002\t您知道嗎?所以我們跟委員報告過了,我們如果其他的能源可以發展起來,這個會改變,所以我們就盤點吧,能源報告嘛。我的意思是說你不能只有目標,你要有路徑,為什麼這件事情重要我直接秀下面,因為我要知道的是什麼?我要知道的是2026年的時候,到2026年為止,我們盤點現在的狀況,到2026年為止,我要達到這個太陽光電的發電量,我需要知道一件事情,還需要多少土地?\n683243\t698562\t這個對施政重不重要當然重要為什麼重要我跟院長報告能源用地白皮書光電篇去年經濟部說年底的時候要公布到現在還沒有公布這個能源用地的白皮書請問什麼時候可以公布\n700977\t727804\t這個是你們網頁上面寫的喔嚴謹制定綠能發展區將能源用地白皮書規劃執引這個白皮書我到今天不斷的搜尋還沒有公布請問什麼時候公布這會牽涉到你的目標到底有沒有realistic嘛你的土地規劃到底是什麼嘛還需要多少公頃嘛打算要在哪裡嘛這不是行政院每天應該要做的事情嗎\n728632\t739812\t我們今年底以前會公布今年底才會公布喔還需要這麼久整整delay了一年啊沒關係啊我拭目以待啊因為你們土地一定要盤點出來嘛\n741260\t769195\t要不然大家怎麼知道怎麼樣支持怎麼配合我們政府的施政計畫達到這個目標嗎?要不然一天到晚在喊20%、20%、20%然後等到2028年的時候才說對不起沒有做到基於什麼樣子的原因?我們現在就要知道你的施政藍圖是什麼?你的施政路徑是什麼?你的施政計畫是什麼?需要多少Gigawatts?需要多少土地?政府盤點土地的結果是如何?我相信\n770155\t789929\t這都是非常重要而且非常理性的公共政策討論。完全沒有任何政治口水在裡面。我希望剛剛院長所承諾的一個月的時間告訴全體國人你的路徑是什麼?今年年底以前把這個能源用地排比書公布出來可以承諾嗎?\n793188\t819256\t下一個重要的問題我支持發展綠能但我痛恨政治權貴攀岩覆世違法濫權胡搞瞎搞麗陽集團就是一個最典型的例子透過偽造變造透過偽造變造的同意書結果什麼當初農委會跟他講你根本不符合淡書不可以用小二甲破碎的農地\n820831\t848110\t南院局也跟他講你根本就不可以納入110年的計畫你是109年搞的事情啊結果我們的中央到地方通風報信量身打造幫這個綠色的權貴搞解套方案然後呢檢察官很火大起訴了不法獲利上百億稻田日期139萬不實文件比例達到96.15\n851667\t866589\t後過遍來不實的資料、偽造、變造的文件取得的電業籌設許可,這絕對是一個違法的行政處分。在舊的政府要下台以前,我問得非常的清楚,\n867778\t884929\t經濟部他跟我說他們絕對會做行政調查該撤銷就要撤銷來請問目前調查的進度違法取得的電業籌設許可騙來的違法的現在圖利被起訴的違法的電業籌設許可要不要撤銷\n886940\t904908\t我們目前已經全面停止立揚申請案的行政作業。那是另外一回事喔!全面用偽造變造的文書騙到了電業從事的許可是不是違法的?那依照行政程序法的規定我們大概會依法來辦理。依法來辦理是依法要撤銷嗎?還需要多久?依照判決來決定。\n906138\t928287\t依照判決不對喔現在的判決是刑事司法有沒有刑事司法有貪污自罪條例的構成要件行政程序法你剛剛自己說的行政程序法是依照行政程序法這沒有判決的問題阿怎麼說要撤銷我們要依照法院認定的事實來辦理什麼叫做法院認定的事實阿你們行政調查報告還要做多久\n1008491\t1008792\t好,謝謝,謝謝王委員,謝謝左院長。\n","txt":"謝謝主席副院長。是不是麻煩有請行政院院長卓院長。來請卓院長備詢。\n黃國昌總統賴清德在競選總統的時候提出他的能源政策那作為總統所提名的行政院院長我相信您最重要的任務就是要實踐賴總統他跟全體國民所提出來的政見其中一個非常重要的一環也是今天大家很關心的事情就是能源政策的問題我今天要請教院長的是這個路徑到底要怎麼樣實踐\n這兩天我們的總統府環境變遷的委員會副召集人童子賢童董事長他對於我們在有關於低碳發電的這件事情上面\n其實提出了蠻強烈的批評我知道童董事長是一個非常有社會企業社會責任感的企業家我個人也非常的尊敬他童董事長說馬政府卸任的時候低碳排電19.4蔡總統卸任的時候低碳發電只有16.9童董事長的數據政府正確\n我喜歡討論事情從事實開始啦因為這樣子的發言喔事實上是代表了我們在淨零太盤的道路上面不進反退嘛那我們就先從事實開始統統市長這樣子的數據剛剛...對不起您是...市長嘛市長說你不知道正不正確你還要再回去再確認是嗎?\n是好來我跟市長報告他的數據是正確的因為他大概就是把火力發電燃煤跟燃氣加在一起啦用百分之百去減掉我們火力發電的數字就他所謂第一態發電的比例我把它全部都列出來了這個是從經濟部能源署的網站下面下來的數字這個\n是過去蔡政府所留下來的問題我沒有要苛責賴清德總統但我們在討論問題的時候知道我們今天從哪裡出發非常非常的重要我首先要請教卓院長的是你認為在賴總統第一任的任期也就是到2028年的時候這一個非低碳排電的比例也就是所謂火力發電的占比會降到多少\n你們現在接手的時候,到今年1月到4月是81.57%嘛,你們現在目標的規劃是要降到多少?報告委員,剛剛前面那個數字,因為我們現在的火力發電是逐漸要降低的,燃氣會增加的,所以理論上是不應該出現,所以我到現在沒有看過這樣的數字,我們可以重新去回頭去查沒有關係啊,就請你跟我講說,你們到2028卸任的時候,你的目標值要降到多少?\n我們現在有幾個火力發電廠要停下來是沒有錯所以你的目標值要降到多少一個禮拜之內書面回覆我可以嗎因為我們現在要討論的事情我沒有要在比較抽象的政策面上跟你討論因為抽象的政策面上賴總統提出他的政見他也當選了嘛就要實踐他的政見嘛\n那我們現在關心的是立法院監督我們要知道路徑怎麼達成嘛。否則的話只是在開空投支票嘛。第二個部分你真的看二氧化碳的碳排放量其實你也可以看得出來從剛剛的比例到二氧化碳的碳排放量童子賢董事長他的批評其實沒有說錯整個趨勢整個數字全部都是一致的\n我非常支持發展再生能源所以我對於再生能源我們現在發展的狀況非常的關心蔡英文總統說2025再生能源要達到20%去年的經濟部也承認了這是一個沒有辦法達到的政見確定跳票了賴清德總統也很坦率的承認了這件事情做不到啦\n做不到他接棒下去做要2026年才可以實踐我相信我對於蔡英文總統的承諾以及賴清德總統的政見這些數字整理都不會錯這個是白紙黑字啊的東西好但我現在在關心的事情是什麼政治人物選舉的時候政見開支票我們就要努力的去達成這才是民主政治這才是責任政治\n我們講要達成不是一句我努力就好人民要看到的是你努力的方法以及你努力的路徑我這樣說沒有錯吧院長好我們來看一下努力的路徑到目前為止我們2024年再生能源的發電量佔10.7%這個一樣是經濟部能源署統計的資料我現在下面的困惑是2026年要到20%\n我把再生人員的種類全部都很詳細的把它畫出來了我具體的請教\n報告委員\n這個會delay的原因主要是因為對不起我沒有問你delay的原因啊我也沒有怪你們嘛跳票的原因跳票的是蔡英文我沒有怪在賴清德頭上啦現在我在問的是賴清德說他2026要達標嘛我們就具體的講現在只有10.7還差9.3嘛那你的太陽光電在你20%的占比當中要占多少\n我們未來會在風電的並聯上面呢...對不起我請教你的是太陽光電你打算佔比要多少?太陽光電我們大概會到20個Gigawatt那麼...沒有沒有20個Gigawatt是20個Gigawatt喔現在我說在你2026再生能源佔比要百分之二十沒有錯吧?好在你是再生能源二十裡面太陽光電要佔幾%這是我的問題\n報告委員,再生能源的種類是愈來愈多的發展。是!所以我很具體的來問,說太陽光電要佔幾%。請說明,太陽光電要佔幾%。是整個再生能源的種類會很多。但我不喜歡混起來講嘛。沒有關係,你每一類要到幾%我希望跟國人說清楚講明白。我知道再生能源很多,\n所以我把所有的數字都列出來了這個是經濟部能源署的網站公告的嘛我今天的問題很簡單賴慶德總統開了政見我們大家都願意相信他他要努力的去達成政見達成要有路徑剛剛院長你也表示同意嘛現在再生能源20%2026年要到20%\n其中太陽光電你們目前的施政計畫是佔幾%?這個問題很具體一點都不複雜也不困難太陽光電要佔幾%?\n跟委員報告一下,我們現在談的是2026年,現在是2024年,還有兩年的時間。所以我們國發會也在努力幫經濟部再找新的能源。跟你報告一下,現在國內已經有廠商開始安裝瓦斯轉藍綠氫的一個綠能。這個藍綠氫的綠能已經實際運作。我們打算在2026年產生大約是1.5GW。\n對,為什麼因為他的建制在一年內\n我這樣說好了啦施政不能只喊口號施政要有路徑我希望達到20%現在是10.7%我們還有9.3%要make up9.3%要Make up我太陽光電打算佔幾%風電打算佔幾%地熱要佔幾%這樣子的一個施政路徑的藍圖難道不應該讓社會知道嗎\n需要多久?需要多久?\n我們一個月給你一個月齁因為這個要具體的問我們才能實事求是就事論事的討論問題嘛要不然全部都在打高空開支票我相信我也希望達到20%但我為什麼要具體的問太陽光電佔幾%風電佔幾%剛剛您所講的新的技術要佔幾%因為我們日後都要檢驗的嘛好我為什麼關心太陽光電要佔幾%這是一個很關鍵的問題為什麼我這樣說來看一下\n我目前太陽能光電發電的裝置容量是12.96GW最新的數據到4月這應該不會錯全部都是經濟部的數據好在這樣的情況之下目前太陽光電我們發電量的佔比是4.7%到2026年我剛剛為什麼要問這個問題我需要知道你們打算佔的比例是多少我才能夠去估計說你要再多多少GW才能夠達到這個percentage\n這是一個非常、這是一個非常率直而且非常重要的問題。為什麼非常重要的問題?我們在討論目標的時候,不是喊口號就會到,要實踐嘛。所以我需要知道說,欸?那你太陽光列佔比要多少?你要有多少的發電裝置容量才可以make up你希望達到的目標?我相信我在這邊問的、說的都是合情合理,也是人民所關心的。\n但是這件事情在政府的政策上為什麼重要?因為我們需要知道我們要達到那個目標還需要投入多少土地?一公頃可以發多少MW?\n您知道嗎?所以我們跟委員報告過了,我們如果其他的能源可以發展起來,這個會改變,所以我們就盤點吧,能源報告嘛。我的意思是說你不能只有目標,你要有路徑,為什麼這件事情重要我直接秀下面,因為我要知道的是什麼?我要知道的是2026年的時候,到2026年為止,我們盤點現在的狀況,到2026年為止,我要達到這個太陽光電的發電量,我需要知道一件事情,還需要多少土地?\n這個對施政重不重要當然重要為什麼重要我跟院長報告能源用地白皮書光電篇去年經濟部說年底的時候要公布到現在還沒有公布這個能源用地的白皮書請問什麼時候可以公布\n這個是你們網頁上面寫的喔嚴謹制定綠能發展區將能源用地白皮書規劃執引這個白皮書我到今天不斷的搜尋還沒有公布請問什麼時候公布這會牽涉到你的目標到底有沒有realistic嘛你的土地規劃到底是什麼嘛還需要多少公頃嘛打算要在哪裡嘛這不是行政院每天應該要做的事情嗎\n我們今年底以前會公布今年底才會公布喔還需要這麼久整整delay了一年啊沒關係啊我拭目以待啊因為你們土地一定要盤點出來嘛\n要不然大家怎麼知道怎麼樣支持怎麼配合我們政府的施政計畫達到這個目標嗎?要不然一天到晚在喊20%、20%、20%然後等到2028年的時候才說對不起沒有做到基於什麼樣子的原因?我們現在就要知道你的施政藍圖是什麼?你的施政路徑是什麼?你的施政計畫是什麼?需要多少Gigawatts?需要多少土地?政府盤點土地的結果是如何?我相信\n這都是非常重要而且非常理性的公共政策討論。完全沒有任何政治口水在裡面。我希望剛剛院長所承諾的一個月的時間告訴全體國人你的路徑是什麼?今年年底以前把這個能源用地排比書公布出來可以承諾嗎?\n下一個重要的問題我支持發展綠能但我痛恨政治權貴攀岩覆世違法濫權胡搞瞎搞麗陽集團就是一個最典型的例子透過偽造變造透過偽造變造的同意書結果什麼當初農委會跟他講你根本不符合淡書不可以用小二甲破碎的農地\n南院局也跟他講你根本就不可以納入110年的計畫你是109年搞的事情啊結果我們的中央到地方通風報信量身打造幫這個綠色的權貴搞解套方案然後呢檢察官很火大起訴了不法獲利上百億稻田日期139萬不實文件比例達到96.15\n後過遍來不實的資料、偽造、變造的文件取得的電業籌設許可,這絕對是一個違法的行政處分。在舊的政府要下台以前,我問得非常的清楚,\n經濟部他跟我說他們絕對會做行政調查該撤銷就要撤銷來請問目前調查的進度違法取得的電業籌設許可騙來的違法的現在圖利被起訴的違法的電業籌設許可要不要撤銷\n我們目前已經全面停止立揚申請案的行政作業。那是另外一回事喔!全面用偽造變造的文書騙到了電業從事的許可是不是違法的?那依照行政程序法的規定我們大概會依法來辦理。依法來辦理是依法要撤銷嗎?還需要多久?依照判決來決定。\n依照判決不對喔現在的判決是刑事司法有沒有刑事司法有貪污自罪條例的構成要件行政程序法你剛剛自己說的行政程序法是依照行政程序法這沒有判決的問題阿怎麼說要撤銷我們要依照法院認定的事實來辦理什麼叫做法院認定的事實阿你們行政調查報告還要做多久\n好,謝謝,謝謝王委員,謝謝左院長。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.910 --> 00:14.495\n謝謝主席副院長。是不是麻煩有請行政院院長卓院長。來請卓院長備詢。\n\n00:24.754 --> 00:49.366\n黃國昌總統賴清德在競選總統的時候提出他的能源政策那作為總統所提名的行政院院長我相信您最重要的任務就是要實踐賴總統他跟全體國民所提出來的政見其中一個非常重要的一環也是今天大家很關心的事情就是能源政策的問題我今天要請教院長的是這個路徑到底要怎麼樣實踐\n\n00:51.530 --> 01:01.860\n這兩天我們的總統府環境變遷的委員會副召集人童子賢童董事長他對於我們在有關於低碳發電的這件事情上面\n\n01:02.662 --> 01:21.905\n其實提出了蠻強烈的批評我知道童董事長是一個非常有社會企業社會責任感的企業家我個人也非常的尊敬他童董事長說馬政府卸任的時候低碳排電19.4蔡總統卸任的時候低碳發電只有16.9童董事長的數據政府正確\n\n01:25.672 --> 01:49.888\n我喜歡討論事情從事實開始啦因為這樣子的發言喔事實上是代表了我們在淨零太盤的道路上面不進反退嘛那我們就先從事實開始統統市長這樣子的數據剛剛...對不起您是...市長嘛市長說你不知道正不正確你還要再回去再確認是嗎?\n\n01:51.348 --> 02:11.735\n是好來我跟市長報告他的數據是正確的因為他大概就是把火力發電燃煤跟燃氣加在一起啦用百分之百去減掉我們火力發電的數字就他所謂第一態發電的比例我把它全部都列出來了這個是從經濟部能源署的網站下面下來的數字這個\n\n02:13.456 --> 02:42.660\n是過去蔡政府所留下來的問題我沒有要苛責賴清德總統但我們在討論問題的時候知道我們今天從哪裡出發非常非常的重要我首先要請教卓院長的是你認為在賴總統第一任的任期也就是到2028年的時候這一個非低碳排電的比例也就是所謂火力發電的占比會降到多少\n\n02:43.823 --> 03:10.948\n你們現在接手的時候,到今年1月到4月是81.57%嘛,你們現在目標的規劃是要降到多少?報告委員,剛剛前面那個數字,因為我們現在的火力發電是逐漸要降低的,燃氣會增加的,所以理論上是不應該出現,所以我到現在沒有看過這樣的數字,我們可以重新去回頭去查沒有關係啊,就請你跟我講說,你們到2028卸任的時候,你的目標值要降到多少?\n\n03:11.788 --> 03:34.417\n我們現在有幾個火力發電廠要停下來是沒有錯所以你的目標值要降到多少一個禮拜之內書面回覆我可以嗎因為我們現在要討論的事情我沒有要在比較抽象的政策面上跟你討論因為抽象的政策面上賴總統提出他的政見他也當選了嘛就要實踐他的政見嘛\n\n03:35.037 --> 03:58.556\n那我們現在關心的是立法院監督我們要知道路徑怎麼達成嘛。否則的話只是在開空投支票嘛。第二個部分你真的看二氧化碳的碳排放量其實你也可以看得出來從剛剛的比例到二氧化碳的碳排放量童子賢董事長他的批評其實沒有說錯整個趨勢整個數字全部都是一致的\n\n03:59.332 --> 04:23.312\n我非常支持發展再生能源所以我對於再生能源我們現在發展的狀況非常的關心蔡英文總統說2025再生能源要達到20%去年的經濟部也承認了這是一個沒有辦法達到的政見確定跳票了賴清德總統也很坦率的承認了這件事情做不到啦\n\n04:24.363 --> 04:51.645\n做不到他接棒下去做要2026年才可以實踐我相信我對於蔡英文總統的承諾以及賴清德總統的政見這些數字整理都不會錯這個是白紙黑字啊的東西好但我現在在關心的事情是什麼政治人物選舉的時候政見開支票我們就要努力的去達成這才是民主政治這才是責任政治\n\n04:52.492 --> 05:09.100\n我們講要達成不是一句我努力就好人民要看到的是你努力的方法以及你努力的路徑我這樣說沒有錯吧院長好我們來看一下努力的路徑到目前為止我們2024年再生能源的發電量佔10.7%這個一樣是經濟部能源署統計的資料我現在下面的困惑是2026年要到20%\n\n05:20.742 --> 05:23.783\n我把再生人員的種類全部都很詳細的把它畫出來了我具體的請教\n\n05:43.818 --> 05:43.998\n報告委員\n\n05:56.980 --> 06:21.480\n這個會delay的原因主要是因為對不起我沒有問你delay的原因啊我也沒有怪你們嘛跳票的原因跳票的是蔡英文我沒有怪在賴清德頭上啦現在我在問的是賴清德說他2026要達標嘛我們就具體的講現在只有10.7還差9.3嘛那你的太陽光電在你20%的占比當中要占多少\n\n06:22.691 --> 06:47.497\n我們未來會在風電的並聯上面呢...對不起我請教你的是太陽光電你打算佔比要多少?太陽光電我們大概會到20個Gigawatt那麼...沒有沒有20個Gigawatt是20個Gigawatt喔現在我說在你2026再生能源佔比要百分之二十沒有錯吧?好在你是再生能源二十裡面太陽光電要佔幾%這是我的問題\n\n06:49.364 --> 06:58.551\n報告委員,再生能源的種類是愈來愈多的發展。是!所以我很具體的來問,說太陽光電要佔幾%。請說明,太陽光電要佔幾%。是整個再生能源的種類會很多。但我不喜歡混起來講嘛。沒有關係,你每一類要到幾%我希望跟國人說清楚講明白。我知道再生能源很多,\n\n07:14.262 --> 07:32.589\n所以我把所有的數字都列出來了這個是經濟部能源署的網站公告的嘛我今天的問題很簡單賴慶德總統開了政見我們大家都願意相信他他要努力的去達成政見達成要有路徑剛剛院長你也表示同意嘛現在再生能源20%2026年要到20%\n\n07:36.741 --> 07:44.512\n其中太陽光電你們目前的施政計畫是佔幾%?這個問題很具體一點都不複雜也不困難太陽光電要佔幾%?\n\n07:46.414 --> 07:59.958\n跟委員報告一下,我們現在談的是2026年,現在是2024年,還有兩年的時間。所以我們國發會也在努力幫經濟部再找新的能源。跟你報告一下,現在國內已經有廠商開始安裝瓦斯轉藍綠氫的一個綠能。這個藍綠氫的綠能已經實際運作。我們打算在2026年產生大約是1.5GW。\n\n08:14.087 --> 08:14.650\n對,為什麼因為他的建制在一年內\n\n08:21.240 --> 08:39.053\n我這樣說好了啦施政不能只喊口號施政要有路徑我希望達到20%現在是10.7%我們還有9.3%要makeup9.3%要Makeup我太陽光電打算佔幾%風電打算佔幾%地熱要佔幾%這樣子的一個施政路徑的藍圖難道不應該讓社會知道嗎\n\n08:45.638 --> 08:45.978\n需要多久?需要多久?\n\n09:11.462 --> 09:35.427\n我們一個月給你一個月齁因為這個要具體的問我們才能實事求是就事論事的討論問題嘛要不然全部都在打高空開支票我相信我也希望達到20%但我為什麼要具體的問太陽光電佔幾%風電佔幾%剛剛您所講的新的技術要佔幾%因為我們日後都要檢驗的嘛好我為什麼關心太陽光電要佔幾%這是一個很關鍵的問題為什麼我這樣說來看一下\n\n09:41.408 --> 10:10.376\n我目前太陽能光電發電的裝置容量是12.96GW最新的數據到4月這應該不會錯全部都是經濟部的數據好在這樣的情況之下目前太陽光電我們發電量的佔比是4.7%到2026年我剛剛為什麼要問這個問題我需要知道你們打算佔的比例是多少我才能夠去估計說你要再多多少GW才能夠達到這個percentage\n\n10:11.136 --> 10:37.714\n這是一個非常、這是一個非常率直而且非常重要的問題。為什麼非常重要的問題?我們在討論目標的時候,不是喊口號就會到,要實踐嘛。所以我需要知道說,欸?那你太陽光列佔比要多少?你要有多少的發電裝置容量才可以makeup你希望達到的目標?我相信我在這邊問的、說的都是合情合理,也是人民所關心的。\n\n10:38.214 --> 10:53.102\n但是這件事情在政府的政策上為什麼重要?因為我們需要知道我們要達到那個目標還需要投入多少土地?一公頃可以發多少MW?\n\n10:54.246 --> 11:22.002\n您知道嗎?所以我們跟委員報告過了,我們如果其他的能源可以發展起來,這個會改變,所以我們就盤點吧,能源報告嘛。我的意思是說你不能只有目標,你要有路徑,為什麼這件事情重要我直接秀下面,因為我要知道的是什麼?我要知道的是2026年的時候,到2026年為止,我們盤點現在的狀況,到2026年為止,我要達到這個太陽光電的發電量,我需要知道一件事情,還需要多少土地?\n\n11:23.243 --> 11:38.562\n這個對施政重不重要當然重要為什麼重要我跟院長報告能源用地白皮書光電篇去年經濟部說年底的時候要公布到現在還沒有公布這個能源用地的白皮書請問什麼時候可以公布\n\n11:40.977 --> 12:07.804\n這個是你們網頁上面寫的喔嚴謹制定綠能發展區將能源用地白皮書規劃執引這個白皮書我到今天不斷的搜尋還沒有公布請問什麼時候公布這會牽涉到你的目標到底有沒有realistic嘛你的土地規劃到底是什麼嘛還需要多少公頃嘛打算要在哪裡嘛這不是行政院每天應該要做的事情嗎\n\n12:08.632 --> 12:19.812\n我們今年底以前會公布今年底才會公布喔還需要這麼久整整delay了一年啊沒關係啊我拭目以待啊因為你們土地一定要盤點出來嘛\n\n12:21.260 --> 12:49.195\n要不然大家怎麼知道怎麼樣支持怎麼配合我們政府的施政計畫達到這個目標嗎?要不然一天到晚在喊20%、20%、20%然後等到2028年的時候才說對不起沒有做到基於什麼樣子的原因?我們現在就要知道你的施政藍圖是什麼?你的施政路徑是什麼?你的施政計畫是什麼?需要多少Gigawatts?需要多少土地?政府盤點土地的結果是如何?我相信\n\n12:50.155 --> 13:09.929\n這都是非常重要而且非常理性的公共政策討論。完全沒有任何政治口水在裡面。我希望剛剛院長所承諾的一個月的時間告訴全體國人你的路徑是什麼?今年年底以前把這個能源用地排比書公布出來可以承諾嗎?\n\n13:13.188 --> 13:39.256\n下一個重要的問題我支持發展綠能但我痛恨政治權貴攀岩覆世違法濫權胡搞瞎搞麗陽集團就是一個最典型的例子透過偽造變造透過偽造變造的同意書結果什麼當初農委會跟他講你根本不符合淡書不可以用小二甲破碎的農地\n\n13:40.831 --> 14:08.110\n南院局也跟他講你根本就不可以納入110年的計畫你是109年搞的事情啊結果我們的中央到地方通風報信量身打造幫這個綠色的權貴搞解套方案然後呢檢察官很火大起訴了不法獲利上百億稻田日期139萬不實文件比例達到96.15\n\n14:11.667 --> 14:26.589\n後過遍來不實的資料、偽造、變造的文件取得的電業籌設許可,這絕對是一個違法的行政處分。在舊的政府要下台以前,我問得非常的清楚,\n\n14:27.778 --> 14:44.929\n經濟部他跟我說他們絕對會做行政調查該撤銷就要撤銷來請問目前調查的進度違法取得的電業籌設許可騙來的違法的現在圖利被起訴的違法的電業籌設許可要不要撤銷\n\n14:46.940 --> 15:04.908\n我們目前已經全面停止立揚申請案的行政作業。那是另外一回事喔!全面用偽造變造的文書騙到了電業從事的許可是不是違法的?那依照行政程序法的規定我們大概會依法來辦理。依法來辦理是依法要撤銷嗎?還需要多久?依照判決來決定。\n\n15:06.138 --> 15:28.287\n依照判決不對喔現在的判決是刑事司法有沒有刑事司法有貪污自罪條例的構成要件行政程序法你剛剛自己說的行政程序法是依照行政程序法這沒有判決的問題阿怎麼說要撤銷我們要依照法院認定的事實來辦理什麼叫做法院認定的事實阿你們行政調查報告還要做多久\n\n16:48.491 --> 16:48.792\n好,謝謝,謝謝王委員,謝謝左院長。\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.91,"end":14.495,"text":"謝謝主席副院長。是不是麻煩有請行政院院長卓院長。來請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":24.754,"end":49.366,"text":"黃國昌總統賴清德在競選總統的時候提出他的能源政策那作為總統所提名的行政院院長我相信您最重要的任務就是要實踐賴總統他跟全體國民所提出來的政見其中一個非常重要的一環也是今天大家很關心的事情就是能源政策的問題我今天要請教院長的是這個路徑到底要怎麼樣實踐"},{"start":51.53,"end":61.86,"text":"這兩天我們的總統府環境變遷的委員會副召集人童子賢童董事長他對於我們在有關於低碳發電的這件事情上面"},{"start":62.662,"end":81.905,"text":"其實提出了蠻強烈的批評我知道童董事長是一個非常有社會企業社會責任感的企業家我個人也非常的尊敬他童董事長說馬政府卸任的時候低碳排電19.4蔡總統卸任的時候低碳發電只有16.9童董事長的數據政府正確"},{"start":85.672,"end":109.888,"text":"我喜歡討論事情從事實開始啦因為這樣子的發言喔事實上是代表了我們在淨零太盤的道路上面不進反退嘛那我們就先從事實開始統統市長這樣子的數據剛剛...對不起您是...市長嘛市長說你不知道正不正確你還要再回去再確認是嗎?"},{"start":111.348,"end":131.735,"text":"是好來我跟市長報告他的數據是正確的因為他大概就是把火力發電燃煤跟燃氣加在一起啦用百分之百去減掉我們火力發電的數字就他所謂第一態發電的比例我把它全部都列出來了這個是從經濟部能源署的網站下面下來的數字這個"},{"start":133.456,"end":162.66,"text":"是過去蔡政府所留下來的問題我沒有要苛責賴清德總統但我們在討論問題的時候知道我們今天從哪裡出發非常非常的重要我首先要請教卓院長的是你認為在賴總統第一任的任期也就是到2028年的時候這一個非低碳排電的比例也就是所謂火力發電的占比會降到多少"},{"start":163.823,"end":190.948,"text":"你們現在接手的時候,到今年1月到4月是81.57%嘛,你們現在目標的規劃是要降到多少?報告委員,剛剛前面那個數字,因為我們現在的火力發電是逐漸要降低的,燃氣會增加的,所以理論上是不應該出現,所以我到現在沒有看過這樣的數字,我們可以重新去回頭去查沒有關係啊,就請你跟我講說,你們到2028卸任的時候,你的目標值要降到多少?"},{"start":191.788,"end":214.417,"text":"我們現在有幾個火力發電廠要停下來是沒有錯所以你的目標值要降到多少一個禮拜之內書面回覆我可以嗎因為我們現在要討論的事情我沒有要在比較抽象的政策面上跟你討論因為抽象的政策面上賴總統提出他的政見他也當選了嘛就要實踐他的政見嘛"},{"start":215.037,"end":238.556,"text":"那我們現在關心的是立法院監督我們要知道路徑怎麼達成嘛。否則的話只是在開空投支票嘛。第二個部分你真的看二氧化碳的碳排放量其實你也可以看得出來從剛剛的比例到二氧化碳的碳排放量童子賢董事長他的批評其實沒有說錯整個趨勢整個數字全部都是一致的"},{"start":239.332,"end":263.312,"text":"我非常支持發展再生能源所以我對於再生能源我們現在發展的狀況非常的關心蔡英文總統說2025再生能源要達到20%去年的經濟部也承認了這是一個沒有辦法達到的政見確定跳票了賴清德總統也很坦率的承認了這件事情做不到啦"},{"start":264.363,"end":291.645,"text":"做不到他接棒下去做要2026年才可以實踐我相信我對於蔡英文總統的承諾以及賴清德總統的政見這些數字整理都不會錯這個是白紙黑字啊的東西好但我現在在關心的事情是什麼政治人物選舉的時候政見開支票我們就要努力的去達成這才是民主政治這才是責任政治"},{"start":292.492,"end":309.1,"text":"我們講要達成不是一句我努力就好人民要看到的是你努力的方法以及你努力的路徑我這樣說沒有錯吧院長好我們來看一下努力的路徑到目前為止我們2024年再生能源的發電量佔10.7%這個一樣是經濟部能源署統計的資料我現在下面的困惑是2026年要到20%"},{"start":320.742,"end":323.783,"text":"我把再生人員的種類全部都很詳細的把它畫出來了我具體的請教"},{"start":343.818,"end":343.998,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":356.98,"end":381.48,"text":"這個會delay的原因主要是因為對不起我沒有問你delay的原因啊我也沒有怪你們嘛跳票的原因跳票的是蔡英文我沒有怪在賴清德頭上啦現在我在問的是賴清德說他2026要達標嘛我們就具體的講現在只有10.7還差9.3嘛那你的太陽光電在你20%的占比當中要占多少"},{"start":382.691,"end":407.497,"text":"我們未來會在風電的並聯上面呢...對不起我請教你的是太陽光電你打算佔比要多少?太陽光電我們大概會到20個Gigawatt那麼...沒有沒有20個Gigawatt是20個Gigawatt喔現在我說在你2026再生能源佔比要百分之二十沒有錯吧?好在你是再生能源二十裡面太陽光電要佔幾%這是我的問題"},{"start":409.364,"end":418.551,"text":"報告委員,再生能源的種類是愈來愈多的發展。是!所以我很具體的來問,說太陽光電要佔幾%。請說明,太陽光電要佔幾%。是整個再生能源的種類會很多。但我不喜歡混起來講嘛。沒有關係,你每一類要到幾%我希望跟國人說清楚講明白。我知道再生能源很多,"},{"start":434.262,"end":452.589,"text":"所以我把所有的數字都列出來了這個是經濟部能源署的網站公告的嘛我今天的問題很簡單賴慶德總統開了政見我們大家都願意相信他他要努力的去達成政見達成要有路徑剛剛院長你也表示同意嘛現在再生能源20%2026年要到20%"},{"start":456.741,"end":464.512,"text":"其中太陽光電你們目前的施政計畫是佔幾%?這個問題很具體一點都不複雜也不困難太陽光電要佔幾%?"},{"start":466.414,"end":479.958,"text":"跟委員報告一下,我們現在談的是2026年,現在是2024年,還有兩年的時間。所以我們國發會也在努力幫經濟部再找新的能源。跟你報告一下,現在國內已經有廠商開始安裝瓦斯轉藍綠氫的一個綠能。這個藍綠氫的綠能已經實際運作。我們打算在2026年產生大約是1.5GW。"},{"start":494.087,"end":494.65,"text":"對,為什麼因為他的建制在一年內"},{"start":501.24,"end":519.053,"text":"我這樣說好了啦施政不能只喊口號施政要有路徑我希望達到20%現在是10.7%我們還有9.3%要make up9.3%要Make up我太陽光電打算佔幾%風電打算佔幾%地熱要佔幾%這樣子的一個施政路徑的藍圖難道不應該讓社會知道嗎"},{"start":525.638,"end":525.978,"text":"需要多久?需要多久?"},{"start":551.462,"end":575.427,"text":"我們一個月給你一個月齁因為這個要具體的問我們才能實事求是就事論事的討論問題嘛要不然全部都在打高空開支票我相信我也希望達到20%但我為什麼要具體的問太陽光電佔幾%風電佔幾%剛剛您所講的新的技術要佔幾%因為我們日後都要檢驗的嘛好我為什麼關心太陽光電要佔幾%這是一個很關鍵的問題為什麼我這樣說來看一下"},{"start":581.408,"end":610.376,"text":"我目前太陽能光電發電的裝置容量是12.96GW最新的數據到4月這應該不會錯全部都是經濟部的數據好在這樣的情況之下目前太陽光電我們發電量的佔比是4.7%到2026年我剛剛為什麼要問這個問題我需要知道你們打算佔的比例是多少我才能夠去估計說你要再多多少GW才能夠達到這個percentage"},{"start":611.136,"end":637.714,"text":"這是一個非常、這是一個非常率直而且非常重要的問題。為什麼非常重要的問題?我們在討論目標的時候,不是喊口號就會到,要實踐嘛。所以我需要知道說,欸?那你太陽光列佔比要多少?你要有多少的發電裝置容量才可以make up你希望達到的目標?我相信我在這邊問的、說的都是合情合理,也是人民所關心的。"},{"start":638.214,"end":653.102,"text":"但是這件事情在政府的政策上為什麼重要?因為我們需要知道我們要達到那個目標還需要投入多少土地?一公頃可以發多少MW?"},{"start":654.246,"end":682.002,"text":"您知道嗎?所以我們跟委員報告過了,我們如果其他的能源可以發展起來,這個會改變,所以我們就盤點吧,能源報告嘛。我的意思是說你不能只有目標,你要有路徑,為什麼這件事情重要我直接秀下面,因為我要知道的是什麼?我要知道的是2026年的時候,到2026年為止,我們盤點現在的狀況,到2026年為止,我要達到這個太陽光電的發電量,我需要知道一件事情,還需要多少土地?"},{"start":683.243,"end":698.562,"text":"這個對施政重不重要當然重要為什麼重要我跟院長報告能源用地白皮書光電篇去年經濟部說年底的時候要公布到現在還沒有公布這個能源用地的白皮書請問什麼時候可以公布"},{"start":700.977,"end":727.804,"text":"這個是你們網頁上面寫的喔嚴謹制定綠能發展區將能源用地白皮書規劃執引這個白皮書我到今天不斷的搜尋還沒有公布請問什麼時候公布這會牽涉到你的目標到底有沒有realistic嘛你的土地規劃到底是什麼嘛還需要多少公頃嘛打算要在哪裡嘛這不是行政院每天應該要做的事情嗎"},{"start":728.632,"end":739.812,"text":"我們今年底以前會公布今年底才會公布喔還需要這麼久整整delay了一年啊沒關係啊我拭目以待啊因為你們土地一定要盤點出來嘛"},{"start":741.26,"end":769.195,"text":"要不然大家怎麼知道怎麼樣支持怎麼配合我們政府的施政計畫達到這個目標嗎?要不然一天到晚在喊20%、20%、20%然後等到2028年的時候才說對不起沒有做到基於什麼樣子的原因?我們現在就要知道你的施政藍圖是什麼?你的施政路徑是什麼?你的施政計畫是什麼?需要多少Gigawatts?需要多少土地?政府盤點土地的結果是如何?我相信"},{"start":770.155,"end":789.929,"text":"這都是非常重要而且非常理性的公共政策討論。完全沒有任何政治口水在裡面。我希望剛剛院長所承諾的一個月的時間告訴全體國人你的路徑是什麼?今年年底以前把這個能源用地排比書公布出來可以承諾嗎?"},{"start":793.188,"end":819.256,"text":"下一個重要的問題我支持發展綠能但我痛恨政治權貴攀岩覆世違法濫權胡搞瞎搞麗陽集團就是一個最典型的例子透過偽造變造透過偽造變造的同意書結果什麼當初農委會跟他講你根本不符合淡書不可以用小二甲破碎的農地"},{"start":820.831,"end":848.11,"text":"南院局也跟他講你根本就不可以納入110年的計畫你是109年搞的事情啊結果我們的中央到地方通風報信量身打造幫這個綠色的權貴搞解套方案然後呢檢察官很火大起訴了不法獲利上百億稻田日期139萬不實文件比例達到96.15"},{"start":851.667,"end":866.589,"text":"後過遍來不實的資料、偽造、變造的文件取得的電業籌設許可,這絕對是一個違法的行政處分。在舊的政府要下台以前,我問得非常的清楚,"},{"start":867.778,"end":884.929,"text":"經濟部他跟我說他們絕對會做行政調查該撤銷就要撤銷來請問目前調查的進度違法取得的電業籌設許可騙來的違法的現在圖利被起訴的違法的電業籌設許可要不要撤銷"},{"start":886.94,"end":904.908,"text":"我們目前已經全面停止立揚申請案的行政作業。那是另外一回事喔!全面用偽造變造的文書騙到了電業從事的許可是不是違法的?那依照行政程序法的規定我們大概會依法來辦理。依法來辦理是依法要撤銷嗎?還需要多久?依照判決來決定。"},{"start":906.138,"end":928.287,"text":"依照判決不對喔現在的判決是刑事司法有沒有刑事司法有貪污自罪條例的構成要件行政程序法你剛剛自己說的行政程序法是依照行政程序法這沒有判決的問題阿怎麼說要撤銷我們要依照法院認定的事實來辦理什麼叫做法院認定的事實阿你們行政調查報告還要做多久"},{"start":1008.491,"end":1008.792,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝王委員,謝謝左院長。"}]}}}}