{"id":154425,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154425","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a154764338f888892a59b2c12d918673f79f1a10a312273395242d3cf3aacb0270ff95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:22:09 - 10:37:57","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T10:22:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T10:37:57+08:00","duration":948,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":410,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時22分）謝謝主席，我想請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長好，因為這是經濟組的詢答，我想先問一下，因為最近AI實在太熱了，你覺得全臺灣最適合設立AI生態園區的地方在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣應該有很多地方都有這樣的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有其中之一，最適合的地方。"],["卓院長榮泰：那委員問一定是講新竹。"],["鄭委員正鈐：感謝院長，確實，因為院長知道我來自新竹，所以我肯定為新竹來發聲，我也用ChatGPT生成式AI問了一下，它確實也給出了一個很具體的答案，它覺得全臺灣最適合的地方就在新竹市，包括IC設計園區，它也覺得全臺灣最適合的地方就在新竹市。坦白說，這也是這幾十年來新竹竹科發展之後一個很好的成果。我們知道賴政府也準備要推桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，新竹被涵蓋在其中，所以我們希望在整個桃竹苗大矽谷計畫當中能夠把竹科X二期規劃進來，竹科X二期是新竹市正在推動的一個都市計畫區域，就在科學園區附近，院長，有沒有辦法讓竹科X二期變成配合桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的一個國家重大建設？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我認為國科會已經很密集的在研究各種方案，以及跟新竹市乃至於新竹縣政府共同研究商討當中，希望這個時程能夠配合大家的需求，以及未來迎接科技大廠進來或是國內廠商使用的速度來進行調整。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝院長，因為你一開始說，你也覺得在新竹是很適合做AI生態園區……"],["卓院長榮泰：歷史悠久，相當好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以，我一定要對你非常的溫和，而且全力支持你繼續推動新竹成立AI生態園區。可是因為現在全世界很多大廠都想要進駐臺灣，包括Google、微軟、Amazon、NVIDIA都表示要進來，甚至Apple也表示想在臺灣設立一個超算中心，我們知道臺灣原本的高科技製造業很厲害，可是成立超算中心之後，我們希望讓超算中心的算力變成一個服務業，而不再只是製造業，所以我們事實上對這個部分肯定是支持的。","可是當我們看到很多大廠想要到臺灣來的時候，就不得不去考慮用電到底夠不夠。說實話，郭部長剛被點名接任部長的時候，我跟他有過對話，他當時對臺灣的核能政策保持一個相對開放的態度，就像我們看到童子賢擔任環境變遷委員會副召集人這樣一個角色的時候，我發現他們對於能源的看法其實是比較開放的，可是坦白說，後來可能是在和民進黨的委員再次溝通之後，我發現他的說法有一點縮回去。可是我覺得重點就是怎麼樣讓臺灣不缺電，這是最大的前提，所以我想在這邊再次問一下卓院長，臺灣未來10年會不會缺電？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長講過很多次，我們也是這樣子認為，我們在2030年之前是有很充裕的準備，未來我們還有新的電廠會加進來，要看新電廠的建設速度，但是我們會持續來加……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，至少你確保2030年之前不缺電，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在是這樣子。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。坦白說，因為整個國際也都非常關注臺灣到底缺不缺電，甚至黃仁勳在離開臺灣之前在臺北電腦展的時候也表示，用電確實是他關心的議題，我知道部長到美國去，也拜訪了很多相關的高階的公司，也希望他們到臺灣來，可是我相信，電也是他們考慮的一個點。","我們看到一個狀態就是，整個外媒對於臺灣用電不足的問題其實是完全不手軟，從2023年7月，華爾街日報就表示，臺灣97%的電來自於國外，會產生重大的國安風險；今年4月彭博（Bloomberg）就直接表示，臺灣靠本土風電要有停電的心理準備；韓國也想發展AI，他們擔心能源問題，就直接表示不要重蹈臺灣的覆轍，這是韓國媒體，都是今年講的；美國智庫也直接表示，台積電到熊本設廠就是因為臺灣電力不足；包括日本經濟新聞，也直接點名我們賴清德總統，說要重新評估核電政策等等；最新一期的美國新聞週刊也直接表示，能源是臺灣國家安全的致命弱點。","這些部分都表示，國際很關心臺灣，那我們臺灣一定更關心自己用電的情況。所以我在想說，當我們剛剛點到這麼多大廠要進到臺灣來的時候，我們的用電到2030年還是足夠的嗎？因為我看了高盛最近的一份報告，它說當美國普遍在設立AI算力中心、普遍使用AI之後，美國的用電很可能會成長2倍，在這樣的情況之下，甚至也有很多像OpenAI、Amazon，都在自籌核能發電或者是併購核電相關設施。所以我想再次請問，在這麼多國際大廠要到臺灣來的時候，我們電還是夠的嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想就這一部分，2030年為止，我們是有把握提供穩定的電給這些大廠。我這次在美國也跟很多大廠交換過意見，確實如委員所指教的，他們對電是非常的重視，目前來看，以我們現有的電力容量跟我們要下載的這些，算出來以後，到2030年我們其實是增加的，我們會增加兩百多MW。但我要跟委員報告，就是我們參考了新加坡的資料，新加坡也是一樣，他們從現在2024年到2030年會增加1.4 Giga，用在這個……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，部長，這個部分我之前有跟你對話過，我大概理解，不過我這邊要特別提到，因為我認為你跟童子賢都是業界非常優秀的企業人士，我覺得你們很務實在看待電力的問題。童子賢也直接提到，非核家園讓臺灣的能源政策陷入四個困境：成本變高、韌性變差、空污變多，甚至會造成很大的環境污染問題。他認為如果我們的能源政策持續這樣的狀態，很可能會阻礙到整個臺灣未來的發展，我相信他講這個部分是一個良心的說法。","那我也調了一個情況，現在我們在講用電夠的問題的時候，不只是夠，它還有用電性質的問題，所以再生能源發展本席是支持的，可是我要特別提到低碳能源，低碳的電也是重要的，我們看到目前112年底的時候，整個臺灣低碳能源占比只有16.9%，在全球排名是非常後面的111名，比很多新興的開發中國家都還要低。那我再調了一下到今年5月份的時候，有稍微提高一點點，非碳能源的部分到了18.1%。這裡面我要特別提到一個狀態是太陽光電跟核能的部分，因為現在撇除核能之外，最大的再生能源就是光電的部分，所以我相信光電肯定還是我們現在政府要力推的一個再生能源方向，應該是這樣子吧？部長，是吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，預定2025年的年底，我們希望在這一部分能夠來到20%，不過因為過去COVID的關係……"],["鄭委員正鈐：到20%是整個再生能源到20%，還是光電要到20%？"],["郭部長智輝：光電。"],["鄭委員正鈐：光電要到20%？"],["郭部長智輝：但是過去這兩、三年因為COVID的關係，我們有一部分delay，所以我們可能要再延一年，到2026年才有辦法達到20%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，部長，這個部分你之後再來跟我溝通，因為光電本身2026到20%幾乎是完全不可能的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告，在20%當中，光電應該是占到8.4%，風電占到7.6%……"],["鄭委員正鈐：再生能源在2026要到20%，對不對？這會不會跳票？院長，會不會跳票？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在2026年會達到這個目標。"],["鄭委員正鈐：不會跳票嘛！OK。那我要特別講，所以光電基本上還是主力嘛！對不對？部長，因為我剛剛特別提到，光電跟再生能源其實有一些不太一樣的地方，我現在就特別提到光電的部分，我們來看一下整個發電業申請設置審查及作業流程籌設或擴建審查流程圖，看一下這個部分，給院長看一下這個流程圖，這是很具體的一個公文書，請問院長，它第六項特別提到應備文件，其中第六點是養殖戶同意證明文件，在參與土地上面要籌設漁電共生，因為漁電共生是光電裡面很重要的一環，那麼我想要問一下，養殖戶同意證明文件應該要由誰來簽署？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，養殖為本，綠能加值，這個是整個的基本原則跟精神，所以應該是一方面讓養殖業能夠有生產，增加綠能，也增加農村、漁村的發展才對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有問題，院長，漁電共生這個政策我們也支持，因為對再生能源的提高我們都支持。我要問的狀態其實是說，因為我們一開始在籌設的時候就要求發電業者必須要取得養殖戶的同意證明文件，就表示他們一開始這些費用就要先出去，那出去之後，因為我們籌設電其實有三個階段，一開始籌設之後到施工許可，到最後的發電執照下來，三個階段的時候，那是不是要在第一階段就取得養殖戶的同意書，我覺得這邊可以考量。這個部分我沒有特別大的意見，因為整個要走，最後也是要有，可是當你一開始就要有的時候，他如果沒有走到最後，可能就會產生很多的弊端，所以現在為什麼有這麼多的光電弊案，跟這肯定是有一些關聯性的，因為我看到部長一直在點頭，部長要不要回答一下？"],["郭部長智輝：我相當同意委員的指教，這一部分因為實際業者他們比較擔心的是這個樣子，就是他可能養得不是那麼順利，所以發電可能就沒有辦法達到當初預期的目的，不過這一部分，我想我們會再跟農業部討論怎麼樣放寬，讓業者能夠順利把電發出來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告，請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員補充說明一下，目前光電業者跟地主，地主如果把這個地承租給另外的人養殖，那就是三方，這個三方的部分，我們其實跟經濟部那時候有研擬一個共同的合約範本，以確保光電業者跟地主跟養殖的業者、養殖戶本身之間能夠切合權益的保障……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這沒問題。陳部長，謝謝你主動站上來，因為這個事情確實跟農業部、經濟部、能源署，還有國產署都有關，因為目前有很多的漁電共生的狀態都是來自於國產署的土地。我們再往下看，這是能源署發出來的一個文件，它直接表示發電的業者必須要取得承租戶的同意書，還有實際養殖戶的同意書。部長能不能說明一下什麼叫做承租戶的同意書跟實際養殖戶的同意書？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個部分就是我剛才說的，有些土地本身地主並沒有經營，他是委託人家經營……"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為這邊是國產署的土地，國產署的土地按照國產署土地使用的方式，它是不能夠任意轉租、轉讓，所以為什麼會有一個承租戶跟實際養殖戶的狀態？我希望陳部長這邊要協助經濟部、能源署、國產署把這個問題解決，好不好？否則我們會碰到當我們需要很多再生能源，光電是主力的時候，可是發現相關部門的橫向連結完全是不夠的，所以當這個產業在推動的時候，完全沒有辦法滿足能源署的要求，我希望院長這邊能夠找我們經濟部、財政部、國產署，還有我們農業部一起來解決這個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我想農業部本身會跟經濟部，還有應該是財政部……"],["卓院長榮泰：國產署。"],["陳部長駿季：跟財政部國產署，我們會來討論這個議題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。這部分再請院長協調解決之後，再給本辦公室一個很清楚的結論。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員指教，再給委員答復。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位請謝龍介委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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{\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,822 --> 00:00:07,123\n謝謝主席,我想請一下卓院長。請卓院長備詢。政委員好。院長好,因為這是經濟組的那個詢答,我想說先問一下,因為最近AI實在太熱了。我想說你覺得全台灣最適合設立AI生態園區的地方在哪裡?\n\n2\n00:00:31,276 --> 00:00:57,554\n臺灣應該很多地方都有這樣的沒有其中之一最適合的地方那委員會一定是蔣新竹嘛OK感謝感謝院長確實因為院長知道我來自新竹那所以我們一定肯定會新竹來發聲那我也在那個用了CHECKGPT生產室的AI我來問一下他確實也給出了一個很具體的答案他覺得全臺灣最適合的地方就在新竹市\n\n3\n00:00:58,474 --> 00:01:18,684\n包括了IC設計園區,他也覺得全台灣最適合的地方都在新竹市。這也是坦白說這幾十年來新竹竹科發展之後一個很好的成果。坦白說我們知道賴政府這邊其實也準備要推桃竹苗大細股計畫,也把新竹涵蓋在這當中。\n\n4\n00:01:19,884 --> 00:01:19,904\n院長﹖\n\n5\n00:01:48,051 --> 00:02:06,443\n我認為國客會已經很密集的在研究各種方案以及跟新竹市乃至於新竹縣政府共同的研究商討當中那希望這個時程能夠配合大家的需求以及未來迎接這個科技大廠進來或是國內的廠商使用的速度來做進行調整\n\n6\n00:02:07,647 --> 00:02:27,370\n謝謝院長,因為你一開始講說你也覺得在新竹是很適合做AI生態園區的時候,所以我一定要對你非常的溫和,而且全力支持你繼續推動新竹成立AI生態園區。可是因為現在全世界很多大廠都想要進駐台灣來,那麼包括\n\n7\n00:02:27,910 --> 00:02:27,930\n﹚鄭正鈐\n\n8\n00:02:48,490 --> 00:03:13,669\n的算力他變成了一個服務業而不再只是製造業所以我們事實上對這個部分肯定是支持的可是當我們在看到很多大廠想要到臺灣來的時候呢我們就不得不去考慮用電到底夠不夠那說實話就是郭部長其實剛被點名接任部長的時候呢那我跟他對話\n\n9\n00:03:15,811 --> 00:03:35,142\n他當時對於臺灣的核能政策保持一個相對開放的一個政策,就像我們看到了童子賢我們的環境變遷委員會的副主委,副召集的這樣一個角色的時候,我發現他們對於能源的看法其實是比較開放的,可是後來坦白說,國務長後來被\n\n10\n00:03:38,044 --> 00:03:57,212\n民進黨的委員後來可能也再一次溝通之後我發現他的說法有一點丟回去可是我覺得重點就是怎麼樣讓台灣不缺電我覺得這是最大的一個前提那我想說在這邊再一次的問一下卓院長台灣在未來10年會不會缺電\n\n11\n00:03:59,197 --> 00:04:24,153\n部長講過很多次我們也是這樣的認為我們在2030年之前我們是有很充裕的這個準備啦那未來我們還有新的電廠會加起來那看新的電廠的建設的速度但是我們會持續來加至少你確保2030年之前不缺電對不對那因為坦白說因為整個國際也都非常關注台灣到底缺不缺電甚至於說\n\n12\n00:04:25,554 --> 00:04:44,690\n黃宇勳在離開臺灣之前那個臺北電腦展的時候他也表示用電確實是他關心的議題那我知道就是部長剛到美國去也去拜訪了很多相關的一個高企業公司也希望他們到臺灣來可是我相信電也是他們考慮的一個點那我們看到一個狀態就是整個外媒對於臺灣用電其實\n\n13\n00:04:47,970 --> 00:05:06,991\n除了問題其實是完全不手軟完全不手軟我們看到一下就是從2023年7月華爾街日報就表示97%的電來自於國外會產生重大國安風險今年4月彭博就直接表示說臺灣靠本土風電臺灣會要有停電心理準備\n\n14\n00:05:09,353 --> 00:05:30,306\n韓國也想發展AI,但擔心能源問題,就直接表示不要重蹈台灣的覆轍。美國智庫也直接表示台積電到熊本設廠是因為台灣電力不足。包括日本經濟新聞也直接點名賴慶德總統要重新評估核電的政策。\n\n15\n00:05:33,648 --> 00:05:53,884\n等等。那麼最新的美國的新聞週刊也直接表示能源是臺灣國家安全的致命弱點。這些部分就表示國際很關心臺灣。那我們臺灣一定更關心臺灣用電的一個情況。那我在想說這麼多大廠進來的時候我們剛點到這麼多大廠要進到臺灣來的時候我們用電到2030年還是會\n\n16\n00:05:59,128 --> 00:06:27,551\n足夠嗎?因為我看了高盛最近的一個報告,他說當美國普遍在設立AI算力中心,普遍使用AI之後,美國的用電很可能會成長兩倍,很可能會成長兩倍。那在這樣的一個情況之下的時候,甚至於說有很多像是AI、Amazon,他們甚至於都在自籌核能發電或者去併購核電相關的問題。所以我想要再次問,\n\n17\n00:06:28,712 --> 00:06:34,114\n在這麼多國際大廠要到臺灣來的時候我們電還是夠嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:34,114 --> 00:06:53,900\n院長報告委員我想就這一部分2030年為止我們是有把握提供穩定的這個電給這些大廠那我這一次在美國我也跟很多的這些大廠交換過意見確實他們如委員所指教的他們對電是非常的這個重視\n\n19\n00:06:55,781 --> 00:07:16,419\n我們目前來看我們算我們現有的這個電力容量跟我們要下載的這些出來以後到2030年我們其實是增加的我們有增加200多MW但我要跟各位跟委員報告就是我們參考的新加坡的資料新加坡也是一樣他們從現在2024年到2030年他們會增加1.4G用在這個\n\n20\n00:07:21,323 --> 00:07:42,441\nOK,部長,這個部分我想我之前有跟你對話過,我大概理解。不過我這邊要特別提到,因為童子賢,因為我認為你跟童子賢都是業界非常優秀的企業人士,我覺得很務實在看電力的問題。童子賢他也直接提到,非核家園讓台灣的能源政策陷入四個困境。\n\n21\n00:07:43,001 --> 00:07:43,021\n﹚鄭正鈐\n\n22\n00:08:24,619 --> 00:08:44,608\n低碳能源占比只有16.9在全球排名非常的後面111名非常的後面比很多新興的開發中國家都還要低那我再調了一下到今年5月份的時候我稍微提高一點點到了18.1非碳能源的部分到18.1\n\n23\n00:08:46,249 --> 00:09:07,822\n那這裡面我要特別提到一個狀態是太陽光電跟核能的部分因為現在撇除核能之外最大的一個再生能源就是光電的一個部分所以我相信光電肯定還是我們現在政府要力推的一個再生能源的方向應該是這樣子吧\n\n24\n00:09:09,524 --> 00:09:25,249\n是的,大概到預定2025年的年底,我們希望在這部分能夠來到20%,不過因為過去COVID-19的關係...到20%是整個再生能源到20%還是光電要到20%?光電\n\n25\n00:09:27,950 --> 00:09:52,624\n光電要到20%但是現在因為在過去這個兩三年因為這個COVID的關係所以我們有一部分這個delay所以我們可能要再延一年到2026年才有辦法達到20%OK部長這個部分你之後再來跟我溝通因為光電本身要到2020要到20%幾乎是完全不可能的我剛剛委員報告光在20%當中光電應該是佔到8.4%\n\n26\n00:09:55,385 --> 00:09:57,967\n我現在特別提到光電的部分我們來看一下\n\n27\n00:10:22,645 --> 00:10:36,832\n在整個發言業的申請、設置、審查及作業流程籌設還有擴建審查流程圖,看一下這個部分,來,給院長看一下這個流程圖,請問院長,往後,來,來這個地方,這個流程圖,院長,\n\n28\n00:10:47,299 --> 00:11:12,601\n這是很具體的一個公文書請問院長他第6項特別提到的應備文件第6點養殖戶同意證明文件在有簽署土地上面要籌設餘電共生因為餘電共生是光電裡面很重要的一環那麼我想要問一下這個養殖戶同意證明文件應該要由誰來簽署\n\n29\n00:11:16,771 --> 00:11:44,922\n報告委員這個養殖為本綠能加值這個是整個的基本的原則跟精神所以應該是以一方面從讓養殖業能夠有生產增加綠能也增加這個農村漁村的這個發展才對而且沒有問題就是院長這個漁電共生社政策我們也支持因為對再生能源的提高我們都支持我要問的狀態其實說因為我們在一開始就是在重設的時候就要求\n\n30\n00:11:45,802 --> 00:12:02,913\n就是發電業者他們必須要取得這個養殖戶的同意證明文件就表示他們一開始這些費用就要先出去那出去之後因為我們成設電機有三個階段\n\n31\n00:12:05,655 --> 00:12:17,846\n一開始籌設之後呢那麼到最後的一個施工許可到最後一個的一個發電執照下來三個階段的時候那是不是要在第一階段就要取得就是養殖戶的\n\n32\n00:12:19,343 --> 00:12:20,864\n我看到部長一直在點頭,部長你要不要回答一下?\n\n33\n00:12:41,640 --> 00:13:02,854\n我相當同意委員你的指教。這一部分因為實際業者他們在比較擔心的是這個樣子,就是可能養不是那麼順利,所以發電可能就沒有辦法達到當初預期的目的。不過這一部分我想我們會再跟農業部再來討論,怎麼樣放寬這一些讓業者能夠順利的把電發出來。\n\n34\n00:13:10,539 --> 00:13:34,178\nOK,我跟委員補充說明一下,就是現在目前光電業者跟地主,地主如果說把這個地承租給另外人養殖的話,那就是三方。那這個三方的部分我們其實跟經濟部那時候有研擬一個共同的一個合約的一個範本。以確保光電業者跟地主跟養殖的業者,養殖戶本身,\n\n35\n00:13:34,998 --> 00:13:59,097\nOK這沒問題陳部長謝謝你主動站上來因為這個事情確實跟農業部經濟部能源署還有國產署都有關因為目前有很多的漁電共生的狀態都是來自於國產署的土地我們再往下看這是能源署發出來的一個文件他直接表示就是\n\n36\n00:14:01,932 --> 00:14:07,058\n發言的業者他們必須要取得承租戶的同意書還有實際養殖戶的同意書\n\n37\n00:14:14,602 --> 00:14:41,711\n部長您可以說明一下什麼叫做成豬戶的同意書跟實際養殖戶的同意書我想這個部分就是我剛才說的就是有些土地他本身地主並沒有經營他是委託人家經營來因為這個國產署的土地喔國產署的土地按照國產署土地使用的方式他是不能夠任意轉租轉讓所以說為什麼會有一個成豬戶跟實際\n\n38\n00:14:46,239 --> 00:15:00,990\n我希望陳部長這邊要協助經濟部、能源署、國產署這邊把這個問題解決好不好因為否則我們會碰到了當我們需要很多再生能源、光電是主力的時候可是發現\n\n39\n00:15:02,751 --> 00:15:16,401\n我們相關的部門橫向的連結完全是不夠的所以當他們這個產業在推動的時候完全沒有辦法滿足能源署的要求我希望院長這邊能夠找我們經濟部然後財政部、國產署還有我們農業部一起來解決這個問題\n\n40\n00:15:38,853 --> 00:15:39,854\n謝謝鄭委員。謝謝卓院長。下一位請謝榮介委員質詢。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3822\t7123\t謝謝主席,我想請一下卓院長。請卓院長備詢。政委員好。院長好,因為這是經濟組的那個詢答,我想說先問一下,因為最近AI實在太熱了。我想說你覺得全台灣最適合設立AI生態園區的地方在哪裡?\n31276\t57554\t臺灣應該很多地方都有這樣的沒有其中之一最適合的地方那委員會一定是蔣新竹嘛OK感謝感謝院長確實因為院長知道我來自新竹那所以我們一定肯定會新竹來發聲那我也在那個用了CHECK GPT生產室的AI我來問一下他確實也給出了一個很具體的答案他覺得全臺灣最適合的地方就在新竹市\n58474\t78684\t包括了IC設計園區,他也覺得全台灣最適合的地方都在新竹市。這也是坦白說這幾十年來新竹竹科發展之後一個很好的成果。坦白說我們知道賴政府這邊其實也準備要推桃竹苗大細股計畫,也把新竹涵蓋在這當中。\n79884\t79904\t院長﹖\n108051\t126443\t我認為國客會已經很密集的在研究各種方案以及跟新竹市乃至於新竹縣政府共同的研究商討當中那希望這個時程能夠配合大家的需求以及未來迎接這個科技大廠進來或是國內的廠商使用的速度來做進行調整\n127647\t147370\t謝謝院長,因為你一開始講說你也覺得在新竹是很適合做AI生態園區的時候,所以我一定要對你非常的溫和,而且全力支持你繼續推動新竹成立AI生態園區。可是因為現在全世界很多大廠都想要進駐台灣來,那麼包括\n147910\t147930\t﹚鄭正鈐\n168490\t193669\t的算力他變成了一個服務業而不再只是製造業所以我們事實上對這個部分肯定是支持的可是當我們在看到很多大廠想要到臺灣來的時候呢我們就不得不去考慮用電到底夠不夠那說實話就是郭部長其實剛被點名接任部長的時候呢那我跟他對話\n195811\t215142\t他當時對於臺灣的核能政策保持一個相對開放的一個政策,就像我們看到了童子賢我們的環境變遷委員會的副主委,副召集的這樣一個角色的時候,我發現他們對於能源的看法其實是比較開放的,可是後來坦白說,國務長後來被\n218044\t237212\t民進黨的委員後來可能也再一次溝通之後我發現他的說法有一點丟回去可是我覺得重點就是怎麼樣讓台灣不缺電我覺得這是最大的一個前提那我想說在這邊再一次的問一下卓院長台灣在未來10年會不會缺電\n239197\t264153\t部長講過很多次我們也是這樣的認為我們在2030年之前我們是有很充裕的這個準備啦那未來我們還有新的電廠會加起來那看新的電廠的建設的速度但是我們會持續來加至少你確保2030年之前不缺電對不對那因為坦白說因為整個國際也都非常關注台灣到底缺不缺電甚至於說\n265554\t284690\t黃宇勳在離開臺灣之前那個臺北電腦展的時候他也表示用電確實是他關心的議題那我知道就是部長剛到美國去也去拜訪了很多相關的一個高企業公司也希望他們到臺灣來可是我相信電也是他們考慮的一個點那我們看到一個狀態就是整個外媒對於臺灣用電其實\n287970\t306991\t除了問題其實是完全不手軟完全不手軟我們看到一下就是從2023年7月華爾街日報就表示97%的電來自於國外會產生重大國安風險今年4月彭博就直接表示說臺灣靠本土風電臺灣會要有停電心理準備\n309353\t330306\t韓國也想發展AI,但擔心能源問題,就直接表示不要重蹈台灣的覆轍。美國智庫也直接表示台積電到熊本設廠是因為台灣電力不足。包括日本經濟新聞也直接點名賴慶德總統要重新評估核電的政策。\n333648\t353884\t等等。那麼最新的美國的新聞週刊也直接表示能源是臺灣國家安全的致命弱點。這些部分就表示國際很關心臺灣。那我們臺灣一定更關心臺灣用電的一個情況。那我在想說這麼多大廠進來的時候我們剛點到這麼多大廠要進到臺灣來的時候我們用電到2030年還是會\n359128\t387551\t足夠嗎?因為我看了高盛最近的一個報告,他說當美國普遍在設立AI算力中心,普遍使用AI之後,美國的用電很可能會成長兩倍,很可能會成長兩倍。那在這樣的一個情況之下的時候,甚至於說有很多像是AI、Amazon,他們甚至於都在自籌核能發電或者去併購核電相關的問題。所以我想要再次問,\n388712\t394114\t在這麼多國際大廠要到臺灣來的時候我們電還是夠嗎?\n394114\t413900\t院長報告委員我想就這一部分2030年為止我們是有把握提供穩定的這個電給這些大廠那我這一次在美國我也跟很多的這些大廠交換過意見確實他們如委員所指教的他們對電是非常的這個重視\n415781\t436419\t我們目前來看我們算我們現有的這個電力容量跟我們要下載的這些出來以後到2030年我們其實是增加的我們有增加200多MW但我要跟各位跟委員報告就是我們參考的新加坡的資料新加坡也是一樣他們從現在2024年到2030年他們會增加1.4G用在這個\n441323\t462441\tOK,部長,這個部分我想我之前有跟你對話過,我大概理解。不過我這邊要特別提到,因為童子賢,因為我認為你跟童子賢都是業界非常優秀的企業人士,我覺得很務實在看電力的問題。童子賢他也直接提到,非核家園讓台灣的能源政策陷入四個困境。\n463001\t463021\t﹚鄭正鈐\n487073\t503899\t﹗\n504619\t524608\t低碳能源占比只有16.9在全球排名非常的後面111名非常的後面比很多新興的開發中國家都還要低那我再調了一下到今年5月份的時候我稍微提高一點點到了18.1非碳能源的部分到18.1\n526249\t547822\t那這裡面我要特別提到一個狀態是太陽光電跟核能的部分因為現在撇除核能之外最大的一個再生能源就是光電的一個部分所以我相信光電肯定還是我們現在政府要力推的一個再生能源的方向應該是這樣子吧\n549524\t565249\t是的,大概到預定2025年的年底,我們希望在這部分能夠來到20%,不過因為過去COVID-19的關係...到20%是整個再生能源到20%還是光電要到20%?光電\n567950\t592624\t光電要到20%但是現在因為在過去這個兩三年因為這個COVID的關係所以我們有一部分這個delay所以我們可能要再延一年到2026年才有辦法達到20%OK部長這個部分你之後再來跟我溝通因為光電本身要到2020要到20%幾乎是完全不可能的我剛剛委員報告光在20%當中光電應該是佔到8.4%\n595385\t597967\t我現在特別提到光電的部分我們來看一下\n622645\t636832\t在整個發言業的申請、設置、審查及作業流程籌設還有擴建審查流程圖,看一下這個部分,來,給院長看一下這個流程圖,請問院長,往後,來,來這個地方,這個流程圖,院長,\n647299\t672601\t這是很具體的一個公文書請問院長他第6項特別提到的應備文件第6點養殖戶同意證明文件在有簽署土地上面要籌設餘電共生因為餘電共生是光電裡面很重要的一環那麼我想要問一下這個養殖戶同意證明文件應該要由誰來簽署\n676771\t704922\t報告委員這個養殖為本綠能加值這個是整個的基本的原則跟精神所以應該是以一方面從讓養殖業能夠有生產增加綠能也增加這個農村漁村的這個發展才對而且沒有問題就是院長這個漁電共生社政策我們也支持因為對再生能源的提高我們都支持我要問的狀態其實說因為我們在一開始就是在重設的時候就要求\n705802\t722913\t就是發電業者他們必須要取得這個養殖戶的同意證明文件就表示他們一開始這些費用就要先出去那出去之後因為我們成設電機有三個階段\n725655\t737846\t一開始籌設之後呢那麼到最後的一個施工許可到最後一個的一個發電執照下來三個階段的時候那是不是要在第一階段就要取得就是養殖戶的\n739343\t740864\t我看到部長一直在點頭,部長你要不要回答一下?\n761640\t782854\t我相當同意委員你的指教。這一部分因為實際業者他們在比較擔心的是這個樣子,就是可能養不是那麼順利,所以發電可能就沒有辦法達到當初預期的目的。不過這一部分我想我們會再跟農業部再來討論,怎麼樣放寬這一些讓業者能夠順利的把電發出來。\n790539\t814178\tOK,我跟委員補充說明一下,就是現在目前光電業者跟地主,地主如果說把這個地承租給另外人養殖的話,那就是三方。那這個三方的部分我們其實跟經濟部那時候有研擬一個共同的一個合約的一個範本。以確保光電業者跟地主跟養殖的業者,養殖戶本身,\n814998\t839097\tOK 這沒問題陳部長謝謝你主動站上來因為這個事情確實跟農業部經濟部能源署還有國產署都有關因為目前有很多的漁電共生的狀態都是來自於國產署的土地我們再往下看這是能源署發出來的一個文件他直接表示就是\n841932\t847058\t發言的業者他們必須要取得承租戶的同意書還有實際養殖戶的同意書\n854602\t881711\t部長您可以說明一下什麼叫做成豬戶的同意書跟實際養殖戶的同意書我想這個部分就是我剛才說的就是有些土地他本身地主並沒有經營他是委託人家經營來因為這個國產署的土地喔國產署的土地按照國產署土地使用的方式他是不能夠任意轉租轉讓所以說為什麼會有一個成豬戶跟實際\n886239\t900990\t我希望陳部長這邊要協助經濟部、能源署、國產署這邊把這個問題解決好不好因為否則我們會碰到了當我們需要很多再生能源、光電是主力的時候可是發現\n902751\t916401\t我們相關的部門橫向的連結完全是不夠的所以當他們這個產業在推動的時候完全沒有辦法滿足能源署的要求我希望院長這邊能夠找我們經濟部然後財政部、國產署還有我們農業部一起來解決這個問題\n938853\t939854\t謝謝鄭委員。謝謝卓院長。下一位請謝榮介委員質詢。\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我想請一下卓院長。請卓院長備詢。政委員好。院長好,因為這是經濟組的那個詢答,我想說先問一下,因為最近AI實在太熱了。我想說你覺得全台灣最適合設立AI生態園區的地方在哪裡?\n臺灣應該很多地方都有這樣的沒有其中之一最適合的地方那委員會一定是蔣新竹嘛OK感謝感謝院長確實因為院長知道我來自新竹那所以我們一定肯定會新竹來發聲那我也在那個用了CHECK GPT生產室的AI我來問一下他確實也給出了一個很具體的答案他覺得全臺灣最適合的地方就在新竹市\n包括了IC設計園區,他也覺得全台灣最適合的地方都在新竹市。這也是坦白說這幾十年來新竹竹科發展之後一個很好的成果。坦白說我們知道賴政府這邊其實也準備要推桃竹苗大細股計畫,也把新竹涵蓋在這當中。\n院長﹖\n我認為國客會已經很密集的在研究各種方案以及跟新竹市乃至於新竹縣政府共同的研究商討當中那希望這個時程能夠配合大家的需求以及未來迎接這個科技大廠進來或是國內的廠商使用的速度來做進行調整\n謝謝院長,因為你一開始講說你也覺得在新竹是很適合做AI生態園區的時候,所以我一定要對你非常的溫和,而且全力支持你繼續推動新竹成立AI生態園區。可是因為現在全世界很多大廠都想要進駐台灣來,那麼包括\n﹚鄭正鈐\n的算力他變成了一個服務業而不再只是製造業所以我們事實上對這個部分肯定是支持的可是當我們在看到很多大廠想要到臺灣來的時候呢我們就不得不去考慮用電到底夠不夠那說實話就是郭部長其實剛被點名接任部長的時候呢那我跟他對話\n他當時對於臺灣的核能政策保持一個相對開放的一個政策,就像我們看到了童子賢我們的環境變遷委員會的副主委,副召集的這樣一個角色的時候,我發現他們對於能源的看法其實是比較開放的,可是後來坦白說,國務長後來被\n民進黨的委員後來可能也再一次溝通之後我發現他的說法有一點丟回去可是我覺得重點就是怎麼樣讓台灣不缺電我覺得這是最大的一個前提那我想說在這邊再一次的問一下卓院長台灣在未來10年會不會缺電\n部長講過很多次我們也是這樣的認為我們在2030年之前我們是有很充裕的這個準備啦那未來我們還有新的電廠會加起來那看新的電廠的建設的速度但是我們會持續來加至少你確保2030年之前不缺電對不對那因為坦白說因為整個國際也都非常關注台灣到底缺不缺電甚至於說\n黃宇勳在離開臺灣之前那個臺北電腦展的時候他也表示用電確實是他關心的議題那我知道就是部長剛到美國去也去拜訪了很多相關的一個高企業公司也希望他們到臺灣來可是我相信電也是他們考慮的一個點那我們看到一個狀態就是整個外媒對於臺灣用電其實\n除了問題其實是完全不手軟完全不手軟我們看到一下就是從2023年7月華爾街日報就表示97%的電來自於國外會產生重大國安風險今年4月彭博就直接表示說臺灣靠本土風電臺灣會要有停電心理準備\n韓國也想發展AI,但擔心能源問題,就直接表示不要重蹈台灣的覆轍。美國智庫也直接表示台積電到熊本設廠是因為台灣電力不足。包括日本經濟新聞也直接點名賴慶德總統要重新評估核電的政策。\n等等。那麼最新的美國的新聞週刊也直接表示能源是臺灣國家安全的致命弱點。這些部分就表示國際很關心臺灣。那我們臺灣一定更關心臺灣用電的一個情況。那我在想說這麼多大廠進來的時候我們剛點到這麼多大廠要進到臺灣來的時候我們用電到2030年還是會\n足夠嗎?因為我看了高盛最近的一個報告,他說當美國普遍在設立AI算力中心,普遍使用AI之後,美國的用電很可能會成長兩倍,很可能會成長兩倍。那在這樣的一個情況之下的時候,甚至於說有很多像是AI、Amazon,他們甚至於都在自籌核能發電或者去併購核電相關的問題。所以我想要再次問,\n在這麼多國際大廠要到臺灣來的時候我們電還是夠嗎?\n院長報告委員我想就這一部分2030年為止我們是有把握提供穩定的這個電給這些大廠那我這一次在美國我也跟很多的這些大廠交換過意見確實他們如委員所指教的他們對電是非常的這個重視\n我們目前來看我們算我們現有的這個電力容量跟我們要下載的這些出來以後到2030年我們其實是增加的我們有增加200多MW但我要跟各位跟委員報告就是我們參考的新加坡的資料新加坡也是一樣他們從現在2024年到2030年他們會增加1.4G用在這個\nOK,部長,這個部分我想我之前有跟你對話過,我大概理解。不過我這邊要特別提到,因為童子賢,因為我認為你跟童子賢都是業界非常優秀的企業人士,我覺得很務實在看電力的問題。童子賢他也直接提到,非核家園讓台灣的能源政策陷入四個困境。\n﹚鄭正鈐\n﹗\n低碳能源占比只有16.9在全球排名非常的後面111名非常的後面比很多新興的開發中國家都還要低那我再調了一下到今年5月份的時候我稍微提高一點點到了18.1非碳能源的部分到18.1\n那這裡面我要特別提到一個狀態是太陽光電跟核能的部分因為現在撇除核能之外最大的一個再生能源就是光電的一個部分所以我相信光電肯定還是我們現在政府要力推的一個再生能源的方向應該是這樣子吧\n是的,大概到預定2025年的年底,我們希望在這部分能夠來到20%,不過因為過去COVID-19的關係...到20%是整個再生能源到20%還是光電要到20%?光電\n光電要到20%但是現在因為在過去這個兩三年因為這個COVID的關係所以我們有一部分這個delay所以我們可能要再延一年到2026年才有辦法達到20%OK部長這個部分你之後再來跟我溝通因為光電本身要到2020要到20%幾乎是完全不可能的我剛剛委員報告光在20%當中光電應該是佔到8.4%\n我現在特別提到光電的部分我們來看一下\n在整個發言業的申請、設置、審查及作業流程籌設還有擴建審查流程圖,看一下這個部分,來,給院長看一下這個流程圖,請問院長,往後,來,來這個地方,這個流程圖,院長,\n這是很具體的一個公文書請問院長他第6項特別提到的應備文件第6點養殖戶同意證明文件在有簽署土地上面要籌設餘電共生因為餘電共生是光電裡面很重要的一環那麼我想要問一下這個養殖戶同意證明文件應該要由誰來簽署\n報告委員這個養殖為本綠能加值這個是整個的基本的原則跟精神所以應該是以一方面從讓養殖業能夠有生產增加綠能也增加這個農村漁村的這個發展才對而且沒有問題就是院長這個漁電共生社政策我們也支持因為對再生能源的提高我們都支持我要問的狀態其實說因為我們在一開始就是在重設的時候就要求\n就是發電業者他們必須要取得這個養殖戶的同意證明文件就表示他們一開始這些費用就要先出去那出去之後因為我們成設電機有三個階段\n一開始籌設之後呢那麼到最後的一個施工許可到最後一個的一個發電執照下來三個階段的時候那是不是要在第一階段就要取得就是養殖戶的\n我看到部長一直在點頭,部長你要不要回答一下?\n我相當同意委員你的指教。這一部分因為實際業者他們在比較擔心的是這個樣子,就是可能養不是那麼順利,所以發電可能就沒有辦法達到當初預期的目的。不過這一部分我想我們會再跟農業部再來討論,怎麼樣放寬這一些讓業者能夠順利的把電發出來。\nOK,我跟委員補充說明一下,就是現在目前光電業者跟地主,地主如果說把這個地承租給另外人養殖的話,那就是三方。那這個三方的部分我們其實跟經濟部那時候有研擬一個共同的一個合約的一個範本。以確保光電業者跟地主跟養殖的業者,養殖戶本身,\nOK 這沒問題陳部長謝謝你主動站上來因為這個事情確實跟農業部經濟部能源署還有國產署都有關因為目前有很多的漁電共生的狀態都是來自於國產署的土地我們再往下看這是能源署發出來的一個文件他直接表示就是\n發言的業者他們必須要取得承租戶的同意書還有實際養殖戶的同意書\n部長您可以說明一下什麼叫做成豬戶的同意書跟實際養殖戶的同意書我想這個部分就是我剛才說的就是有些土地他本身地主並沒有經營他是委託人家經營來因為這個國產署的土地喔國產署的土地按照國產署土地使用的方式他是不能夠任意轉租轉讓所以說為什麼會有一個成豬戶跟實際\n我希望陳部長這邊要協助經濟部、能源署、國產署這邊把這個問題解決好不好因為否則我們會碰到了當我們需要很多再生能源、光電是主力的時候可是發現\n我們相關的部門橫向的連結完全是不夠的所以當他們這個產業在推動的時候完全沒有辦法滿足能源署的要求我希望院長這邊能夠找我們經濟部然後財政部、國產署還有我們農業部一起來解決這個問題\n謝謝鄭委員。謝謝卓院長。下一位請謝榮介委員質詢。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.822 --> 00:07.123\n謝謝主席,我想請一下卓院長。請卓院長備詢。政委員好。院長好,因為這是經濟組的那個詢答,我想說先問一下,因為最近AI實在太熱了。我想說你覺得全台灣最適合設立AI生態園區的地方在哪裡?\n\n00:31.276 --> 00:57.554\n臺灣應該很多地方都有這樣的沒有其中之一最適合的地方那委員會一定是蔣新竹嘛OK感謝感謝院長確實因為院長知道我來自新竹那所以我們一定肯定會新竹來發聲那我也在那個用了CHECKGPT生產室的AI我來問一下他確實也給出了一個很具體的答案他覺得全臺灣最適合的地方就在新竹市\n\n00:58.474 --> 01:18.684\n包括了IC設計園區,他也覺得全台灣最適合的地方都在新竹市。這也是坦白說這幾十年來新竹竹科發展之後一個很好的成果。坦白說我們知道賴政府這邊其實也準備要推桃竹苗大細股計畫,也把新竹涵蓋在這當中。\n\n01:19.884 --> 01:19.904\n院長﹖\n\n01:48.051 --> 02:06.443\n我認為國客會已經很密集的在研究各種方案以及跟新竹市乃至於新竹縣政府共同的研究商討當中那希望這個時程能夠配合大家的需求以及未來迎接這個科技大廠進來或是國內的廠商使用的速度來做進行調整\n\n02:07.647 --> 02:27.370\n謝謝院長,因為你一開始講說你也覺得在新竹是很適合做AI生態園區的時候,所以我一定要對你非常的溫和,而且全力支持你繼續推動新竹成立AI生態園區。可是因為現在全世界很多大廠都想要進駐台灣來,那麼包括\n\n02:27.910 --> 02:27.930\n﹚鄭正鈐\n\n02:48.490 --> 03:13.669\n的算力他變成了一個服務業而不再只是製造業所以我們事實上對這個部分肯定是支持的可是當我們在看到很多大廠想要到臺灣來的時候呢我們就不得不去考慮用電到底夠不夠那說實話就是郭部長其實剛被點名接任部長的時候呢那我跟他對話\n\n03:15.811 --> 03:35.142\n他當時對於臺灣的核能政策保持一個相對開放的一個政策,就像我們看到了童子賢我們的環境變遷委員會的副主委,副召集的這樣一個角色的時候,我發現他們對於能源的看法其實是比較開放的,可是後來坦白說,國務長後來被\n\n03:38.044 --> 03:57.212\n民進黨的委員後來可能也再一次溝通之後我發現他的說法有一點丟回去可是我覺得重點就是怎麼樣讓台灣不缺電我覺得這是最大的一個前提那我想說在這邊再一次的問一下卓院長台灣在未來10年會不會缺電\n\n03:59.197 --> 04:24.153\n部長講過很多次我們也是這樣的認為我們在2030年之前我們是有很充裕的這個準備啦那未來我們還有新的電廠會加起來那看新的電廠的建設的速度但是我們會持續來加至少你確保2030年之前不缺電對不對那因為坦白說因為整個國際也都非常關注台灣到底缺不缺電甚至於說\n\n04:25.554 --> 04:44.690\n黃宇勳在離開臺灣之前那個臺北電腦展的時候他也表示用電確實是他關心的議題那我知道就是部長剛到美國去也去拜訪了很多相關的一個高企業公司也希望他們到臺灣來可是我相信電也是他們考慮的一個點那我們看到一個狀態就是整個外媒對於臺灣用電其實\n\n04:47.970 --> 05:06.991\n除了問題其實是完全不手軟完全不手軟我們看到一下就是從2023年7月華爾街日報就表示97%的電來自於國外會產生重大國安風險今年4月彭博就直接表示說臺灣靠本土風電臺灣會要有停電心理準備\n\n05:09.353 --> 05:30.306\n韓國也想發展AI,但擔心能源問題,就直接表示不要重蹈台灣的覆轍。美國智庫也直接表示台積電到熊本設廠是因為台灣電力不足。包括日本經濟新聞也直接點名賴慶德總統要重新評估核電的政策。\n\n05:33.648 --> 05:53.884\n等等。那麼最新的美國的新聞週刊也直接表示能源是臺灣國家安全的致命弱點。這些部分就表示國際很關心臺灣。那我們臺灣一定更關心臺灣用電的一個情況。那我在想說這麼多大廠進來的時候我們剛點到這麼多大廠要進到臺灣來的時候我們用電到2030年還是會\n\n05:59.128 --> 06:27.551\n足夠嗎?因為我看了高盛最近的一個報告,他說當美國普遍在設立AI算力中心,普遍使用AI之後,美國的用電很可能會成長兩倍,很可能會成長兩倍。那在這樣的一個情況之下的時候,甚至於說有很多像是AI、Amazon,他們甚至於都在自籌核能發電或者去併購核電相關的問題。所以我想要再次問,\n\n06:28.712 --> 06:34.114\n在這麼多國際大廠要到臺灣來的時候我們電還是夠嗎?\n\n06:34.114 --> 06:53.900\n院長報告委員我想就這一部分2030年為止我們是有把握提供穩定的這個電給這些大廠那我這一次在美國我也跟很多的這些大廠交換過意見確實他們如委員所指教的他們對電是非常的這個重視\n\n06:55.781 --> 07:16.419\n我們目前來看我們算我們現有的這個電力容量跟我們要下載的這些出來以後到2030年我們其實是增加的我們有增加200多MW但我要跟各位跟委員報告就是我們參考的新加坡的資料新加坡也是一樣他們從現在2024年到2030年他們會增加1.4G用在這個\n\n07:21.323 --> 07:42.441\nOK,部長,這個部分我想我之前有跟你對話過,我大概理解。不過我這邊要特別提到,因為童子賢,因為我認為你跟童子賢都是業界非常優秀的企業人士,我覺得很務實在看電力的問題。童子賢他也直接提到,非核家園讓台灣的能源政策陷入四個困境。\n\n07:43.001 --> 07:43.021\n﹚鄭正鈐\n\n08:24.619 --> 08:44.608\n低碳能源占比只有16.9在全球排名非常的後面111名非常的後面比很多新興的開發中國家都還要低那我再調了一下到今年5月份的時候我稍微提高一點點到了18.1非碳能源的部分到18.1\n\n08:46.249 --> 09:07.822\n那這裡面我要特別提到一個狀態是太陽光電跟核能的部分因為現在撇除核能之外最大的一個再生能源就是光電的一個部分所以我相信光電肯定還是我們現在政府要力推的一個再生能源的方向應該是這樣子吧\n\n09:09.524 --> 09:25.249\n是的,大概到預定2025年的年底,我們希望在這部分能夠來到20%,不過因為過去COVID-19的關係...到20%是整個再生能源到20%還是光電要到20%?光電\n\n09:27.950 --> 09:52.624\n光電要到20%但是現在因為在過去這個兩三年因為這個COVID的關係所以我們有一部分這個delay所以我們可能要再延一年到2026年才有辦法達到20%OK部長這個部分你之後再來跟我溝通因為光電本身要到2020要到20%幾乎是完全不可能的我剛剛委員報告光在20%當中光電應該是佔到8.4%\n\n09:55.385 --> 09:57.967\n我現在特別提到光電的部分我們來看一下\n\n10:22.645 --> 10:36.832\n在整個發言業的申請、設置、審查及作業流程籌設還有擴建審查流程圖,看一下這個部分,來,給院長看一下這個流程圖,請問院長,往後,來,來這個地方,這個流程圖,院長,\n\n10:47.299 --> 11:12.601\n這是很具體的一個公文書請問院長他第6項特別提到的應備文件第6點養殖戶同意證明文件在有簽署土地上面要籌設餘電共生因為餘電共生是光電裡面很重要的一環那麼我想要問一下這個養殖戶同意證明文件應該要由誰來簽署\n\n11:16.771 --> 11:44.922\n報告委員這個養殖為本綠能加值這個是整個的基本的原則跟精神所以應該是以一方面從讓養殖業能夠有生產增加綠能也增加這個農村漁村的這個發展才對而且沒有問題就是院長這個漁電共生社政策我們也支持因為對再生能源的提高我們都支持我要問的狀態其實說因為我們在一開始就是在重設的時候就要求\n\n11:45.802 --> 12:02.913\n就是發電業者他們必須要取得這個養殖戶的同意證明文件就表示他們一開始這些費用就要先出去那出去之後因為我們成設電機有三個階段\n\n12:05.655 --> 12:17.846\n一開始籌設之後呢那麼到最後的一個施工許可到最後一個的一個發電執照下來三個階段的時候那是不是要在第一階段就要取得就是養殖戶的\n\n12:19.343 --> 12:20.864\n我看到部長一直在點頭,部長你要不要回答一下?\n\n12:41.640 --> 13:02.854\n我相當同意委員你的指教。這一部分因為實際業者他們在比較擔心的是這個樣子,就是可能養不是那麼順利,所以發電可能就沒有辦法達到當初預期的目的。不過這一部分我想我們會再跟農業部再來討論,怎麼樣放寬這一些讓業者能夠順利的把電發出來。\n\n13:10.539 --> 13:34.178\nOK,我跟委員補充說明一下,就是現在目前光電業者跟地主,地主如果說把這個地承租給另外人養殖的話,那就是三方。那這個三方的部分我們其實跟經濟部那時候有研擬一個共同的一個合約的一個範本。以確保光電業者跟地主跟養殖的業者,養殖戶本身,\n\n13:34.998 --> 13:59.097\nOK這沒問題陳部長謝謝你主動站上來因為這個事情確實跟農業部經濟部能源署還有國產署都有關因為目前有很多的漁電共生的狀態都是來自於國產署的土地我們再往下看這是能源署發出來的一個文件他直接表示就是\n\n14:01.932 --> 14:07.058\n發言的業者他們必須要取得承租戶的同意書還有實際養殖戶的同意書\n\n14:14.602 --> 14:41.711\n部長您可以說明一下什麼叫做成豬戶的同意書跟實際養殖戶的同意書我想這個部分就是我剛才說的就是有些土地他本身地主並沒有經營他是委託人家經營來因為這個國產署的土地喔國產署的土地按照國產署土地使用的方式他是不能夠任意轉租轉讓所以說為什麼會有一個成豬戶跟實際\n\n14:46.239 --> 15:00.990\n我希望陳部長這邊要協助經濟部、能源署、國產署這邊把這個問題解決好不好因為否則我們會碰到了當我們需要很多再生能源、光電是主力的時候可是發現\n\n15:02.751 --> 15:16.401\n我們相關的部門橫向的連結完全是不夠的所以當他們這個產業在推動的時候完全沒有辦法滿足能源署的要求我希望院長這邊能夠找我們經濟部然後財政部、國產署還有我們農業部一起來解決這個問題\n\n15:38.853 --> 15:39.854\n謝謝鄭委員。謝謝卓院長。下一位請謝榮介委員質詢。\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.822,"end":7.123,"text":"謝謝主席,我想請一下卓院長。請卓院長備詢。政委員好。院長好,因為這是經濟組的那個詢答,我想說先問一下,因為最近AI實在太熱了。我想說你覺得全台灣最適合設立AI生態園區的地方在哪裡?"},{"start":31.276,"end":57.554,"text":"臺灣應該很多地方都有這樣的沒有其中之一最適合的地方那委員會一定是蔣新竹嘛OK感謝感謝院長確實因為院長知道我來自新竹那所以我們一定肯定會新竹來發聲那我也在那個用了CHECK GPT生產室的AI我來問一下他確實也給出了一個很具體的答案他覺得全臺灣最適合的地方就在新竹市"},{"start":58.474,"end":78.684,"text":"包括了IC設計園區,他也覺得全台灣最適合的地方都在新竹市。這也是坦白說這幾十年來新竹竹科發展之後一個很好的成果。坦白說我們知道賴政府這邊其實也準備要推桃竹苗大細股計畫,也把新竹涵蓋在這當中。"},{"start":79.884,"end":79.904,"text":"院長﹖"},{"start":108.051,"end":126.443,"text":"我認為國客會已經很密集的在研究各種方案以及跟新竹市乃至於新竹縣政府共同的研究商討當中那希望這個時程能夠配合大家的需求以及未來迎接這個科技大廠進來或是國內的廠商使用的速度來做進行調整"},{"start":127.647,"end":147.37,"text":"謝謝院長,因為你一開始講說你也覺得在新竹是很適合做AI生態園區的時候,所以我一定要對你非常的溫和,而且全力支持你繼續推動新竹成立AI生態園區。可是因為現在全世界很多大廠都想要進駐台灣來,那麼包括"},{"start":147.91,"end":147.93,"text":"﹚鄭正鈐"},{"start":168.49,"end":193.669,"text":"的算力他變成了一個服務業而不再只是製造業所以我們事實上對這個部分肯定是支持的可是當我們在看到很多大廠想要到臺灣來的時候呢我們就不得不去考慮用電到底夠不夠那說實話就是郭部長其實剛被點名接任部長的時候呢那我跟他對話"},{"start":195.811,"end":215.142,"text":"他當時對於臺灣的核能政策保持一個相對開放的一個政策,就像我們看到了童子賢我們的環境變遷委員會的副主委,副召集的這樣一個角色的時候,我發現他們對於能源的看法其實是比較開放的,可是後來坦白說,國務長後來被"},{"start":218.044,"end":237.212,"text":"民進黨的委員後來可能也再一次溝通之後我發現他的說法有一點丟回去可是我覺得重點就是怎麼樣讓台灣不缺電我覺得這是最大的一個前提那我想說在這邊再一次的問一下卓院長台灣在未來10年會不會缺電"},{"start":239.197,"end":264.153,"text":"部長講過很多次我們也是這樣的認為我們在2030年之前我們是有很充裕的這個準備啦那未來我們還有新的電廠會加起來那看新的電廠的建設的速度但是我們會持續來加至少你確保2030年之前不缺電對不對那因為坦白說因為整個國際也都非常關注台灣到底缺不缺電甚至於說"},{"start":265.554,"end":284.69,"text":"黃宇勳在離開臺灣之前那個臺北電腦展的時候他也表示用電確實是他關心的議題那我知道就是部長剛到美國去也去拜訪了很多相關的一個高企業公司也希望他們到臺灣來可是我相信電也是他們考慮的一個點那我們看到一個狀態就是整個外媒對於臺灣用電其實"},{"start":287.97,"end":306.991,"text":"除了問題其實是完全不手軟完全不手軟我們看到一下就是從2023年7月華爾街日報就表示97%的電來自於國外會產生重大國安風險今年4月彭博就直接表示說臺灣靠本土風電臺灣會要有停電心理準備"},{"start":309.353,"end":330.306,"text":"韓國也想發展AI,但擔心能源問題,就直接表示不要重蹈台灣的覆轍。美國智庫也直接表示台積電到熊本設廠是因為台灣電力不足。包括日本經濟新聞也直接點名賴慶德總統要重新評估核電的政策。"},{"start":333.648,"end":353.884,"text":"等等。那麼最新的美國的新聞週刊也直接表示能源是臺灣國家安全的致命弱點。這些部分就表示國際很關心臺灣。那我們臺灣一定更關心臺灣用電的一個情況。那我在想說這麼多大廠進來的時候我們剛點到這麼多大廠要進到臺灣來的時候我們用電到2030年還是會"},{"start":359.128,"end":387.551,"text":"足夠嗎?因為我看了高盛最近的一個報告,他說當美國普遍在設立AI算力中心,普遍使用AI之後,美國的用電很可能會成長兩倍,很可能會成長兩倍。那在這樣的一個情況之下的時候,甚至於說有很多像是AI、Amazon,他們甚至於都在自籌核能發電或者去併購核電相關的問題。所以我想要再次問,"},{"start":388.712,"end":394.114,"text":"在這麼多國際大廠要到臺灣來的時候我們電還是夠嗎?"},{"start":394.114,"end":413.9,"text":"院長報告委員我想就這一部分2030年為止我們是有把握提供穩定的這個電給這些大廠那我這一次在美國我也跟很多的這些大廠交換過意見確實他們如委員所指教的他們對電是非常的這個重視"},{"start":415.781,"end":436.419,"text":"我們目前來看我們算我們現有的這個電力容量跟我們要下載的這些出來以後到2030年我們其實是增加的我們有增加200多MW但我要跟各位跟委員報告就是我們參考的新加坡的資料新加坡也是一樣他們從現在2024年到2030年他們會增加1.4G用在這個"},{"start":441.323,"end":462.441,"text":"OK,部長,這個部分我想我之前有跟你對話過,我大概理解。不過我這邊要特別提到,因為童子賢,因為我認為你跟童子賢都是業界非常優秀的企業人士,我覺得很務實在看電力的問題。童子賢他也直接提到,非核家園讓台灣的能源政策陷入四個困境。"},{"start":463.001,"end":463.021,"text":"﹚鄭正鈐"},{"start":487.073,"end":503.899,"text":"﹗"},{"start":504.619,"end":524.608,"text":"低碳能源占比只有16.9在全球排名非常的後面111名非常的後面比很多新興的開發中國家都還要低那我再調了一下到今年5月份的時候我稍微提高一點點到了18.1非碳能源的部分到18.1"},{"start":526.249,"end":547.822,"text":"那這裡面我要特別提到一個狀態是太陽光電跟核能的部分因為現在撇除核能之外最大的一個再生能源就是光電的一個部分所以我相信光電肯定還是我們現在政府要力推的一個再生能源的方向應該是這樣子吧"},{"start":549.524,"end":565.249,"text":"是的,大概到預定2025年的年底,我們希望在這部分能夠來到20%,不過因為過去COVID-19的關係...到20%是整個再生能源到20%還是光電要到20%?光電"},{"start":567.95,"end":592.624,"text":"光電要到20%但是現在因為在過去這個兩三年因為這個COVID的關係所以我們有一部分這個delay所以我們可能要再延一年到2026年才有辦法達到20%OK部長這個部分你之後再來跟我溝通因為光電本身要到2020要到20%幾乎是完全不可能的我剛剛委員報告光在20%當中光電應該是佔到8.4%"},{"start":595.385,"end":597.967,"text":"我現在特別提到光電的部分我們來看一下"},{"start":622.645,"end":636.832,"text":"在整個發言業的申請、設置、審查及作業流程籌設還有擴建審查流程圖,看一下這個部分,來,給院長看一下這個流程圖,請問院長,往後,來,來這個地方,這個流程圖,院長,"},{"start":647.299,"end":672.601,"text":"這是很具體的一個公文書請問院長他第6項特別提到的應備文件第6點養殖戶同意證明文件在有簽署土地上面要籌設餘電共生因為餘電共生是光電裡面很重要的一環那麼我想要問一下這個養殖戶同意證明文件應該要由誰來簽署"},{"start":676.771,"end":704.922,"text":"報告委員這個養殖為本綠能加值這個是整個的基本的原則跟精神所以應該是以一方面從讓養殖業能夠有生產增加綠能也增加這個農村漁村的這個發展才對而且沒有問題就是院長這個漁電共生社政策我們也支持因為對再生能源的提高我們都支持我要問的狀態其實說因為我們在一開始就是在重設的時候就要求"},{"start":705.802,"end":722.913,"text":"就是發電業者他們必須要取得這個養殖戶的同意證明文件就表示他們一開始這些費用就要先出去那出去之後因為我們成設電機有三個階段"},{"start":725.655,"end":737.846,"text":"一開始籌設之後呢那麼到最後的一個施工許可到最後一個的一個發電執照下來三個階段的時候那是不是要在第一階段就要取得就是養殖戶的"},{"start":739.343,"end":740.864,"text":"我看到部長一直在點頭,部長你要不要回答一下?"},{"start":761.64,"end":782.854,"text":"我相當同意委員你的指教。這一部分因為實際業者他們在比較擔心的是這個樣子,就是可能養不是那麼順利,所以發電可能就沒有辦法達到當初預期的目的。不過這一部分我想我們會再跟農業部再來討論,怎麼樣放寬這一些讓業者能夠順利的把電發出來。"},{"start":790.539,"end":814.178,"text":"OK,我跟委員補充說明一下,就是現在目前光電業者跟地主,地主如果說把這個地承租給另外人養殖的話,那就是三方。那這個三方的部分我們其實跟經濟部那時候有研擬一個共同的一個合約的一個範本。以確保光電業者跟地主跟養殖的業者,養殖戶本身,"},{"start":814.998,"end":839.097,"text":"OK 這沒問題陳部長謝謝你主動站上來因為這個事情確實跟農業部經濟部能源署還有國產署都有關因為目前有很多的漁電共生的狀態都是來自於國產署的土地我們再往下看這是能源署發出來的一個文件他直接表示就是"},{"start":841.932,"end":847.058,"text":"發言的業者他們必須要取得承租戶的同意書還有實際養殖戶的同意書"},{"start":854.602,"end":881.711,"text":"部長您可以說明一下什麼叫做成豬戶的同意書跟實際養殖戶的同意書我想這個部分就是我剛才說的就是有些土地他本身地主並沒有經營他是委託人家經營來因為這個國產署的土地喔國產署的土地按照國產署土地使用的方式他是不能夠任意轉租轉讓所以說為什麼會有一個成豬戶跟實際"},{"start":886.239,"end":900.99,"text":"我希望陳部長這邊要協助經濟部、能源署、國產署這邊把這個問題解決好不好因為否則我們會碰到了當我們需要很多再生能源、光電是主力的時候可是發現"},{"start":902.751,"end":916.401,"text":"我們相關的部門橫向的連結完全是不夠的所以當他們這個產業在推動的時候完全沒有辦法滿足能源署的要求我希望院長這邊能夠找我們經濟部然後財政部、國產署還有我們農業部一起來解決這個問題"},{"start":938.853,"end":939.854,"text":"謝謝鄭委員。謝謝卓院長。下一位請謝榮介委員質詢。"}]}}}}