{"id":154433,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154433","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a1547464cc06297129ca72c12d918673f79f1ea54be415f02ab41574b4901b66d94185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:53:43 - 12:09:44","影片長度":"00:16:01","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T11:53:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T12:09:44+08:00","duration":961,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時53分）謝謝主席，我請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長好。我想今天是財政部門的質詢，所以大家大概都focus在財劃法，我想問一下院長，財劃法對你來說是該修還是不該修？還是那個「羞」？"],["卓院長榮泰：我的想法是在現行的財劃法底下，我們中央逐年對地方補助再增加，照這樣的方式繼續來行使……"],["黃委員珊珊：我只問您的個人看法，25年了，該修還是不該修？這張照片如果印象沒有錯的話，是2012年蘇貞昌主席帶著賴清德市長還有民進黨團的總召，他們召集的一個立法院的記者會，也就是提出修法版本。如果該修而沒有修──就剛剛講的沒有共識，所以一直都沒有修過，我想請問一下，如果現在的制度很好，為什麼91年游錫堃院長提？96年張俊雄院長提？97年賴清德市長跟柯建銘任立委的時候提？然後101年潘孟安立委跟柯建銘又提版本？","所以我們想問一下，落實地方自治、充實地方財源，這是不是民主進步黨執政的理想？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，我們現在還是以均衡臺灣的理念來做。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果要修，大家要有共識。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以財政健全、落實地方自治，是每一個民主國家政府應該要捍衛的權利，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，這個財劃法大家都說它是一個魔戒，開玩笑說國民黨執政了國民黨也不想修，當民進黨執政之後，民進黨想修是在他們在野的時候，當拿到執政權一樣，所謂的集錢又集權，所以讓這個魔戒一直脫不下來。我今天要跟院長討論，我也相信這是大家的信仰，我們也希望地方政府很清楚地知道它有多少財源，要去努力它的地方財源、它要得到合理分配、它要看到公開的資訊，甚至比較透明的方案，我覺得這個是財劃法的精神。","所以，我要跟院長說一下，這個信仰從民進黨執政之前，2011年陳其邁、現在的市長說：不可以讓中央政府再用空頭支票來騙人民。當時的民進黨主席蘇貞昌說：國家領導人沒有長遠的眼光，起碼要有解決現在眼前問題的能力。下一個是柯建銘總召：財劃法是立法院黨團永遠的第一優先法案，25年了，好像都是他第一優先法案，但是今年突然變成不是了。2012年的臺南市長賴清德、現在的賴總統，他說：任何負責任的總統，都不應該把關係地方發展的法律放在一邊不管。這是民主進步黨在2012年說的話。","所以我再問一次院長，這也是你的信仰嗎？這也是你們希望能夠落實、包括解決眼前的問題、包括國家領導人長遠的眼光？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是，我們希望均衡臺灣，就是讓各地都能夠得到充足而且必要的一些經費，而且不能原來好的越來越好，就是它強任它強，這樣絕對不行。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，要讓它公平跟合理，我們沒有要求強者恆強。"],["卓院長榮泰：原來已經太好的，就不能越來越好。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，所以大家要有一個方案，剛剛講的是過去，我們看看最近。最近的是去年12月，賴清德總統的官方網站裡面講得非常的清楚，院長，你也有參與他的總統選舉，這個是賴清德總統的國家希望工程其中的一部分，檢討統籌分配款的模式還有檢討地方稅法通則，這個是落實增加分配公平性跟充實地方財源，分配公式要多元、客觀的地方特色指標，跟我們講的都一樣。","所以我再問你一次，你們行政院要不要提出自己的版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為現在的版本是經過多年共識執行下來，以這個來討論……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你覺得現在版本已經最好的版本？那你們為什麼提了4次的修法案？"],["卓院長榮泰：過去？"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以它都遇到了相當的困難，共識無法達成。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們要修法的立場改變了，不要修了是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對中央、地方合作跟均衡臺灣的立場絕對不會改變。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我再問院長一次，賴清德總統的政見，卓院長要不要落實嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：他的政策我們都……"],["黃委員珊珊：卓院長要不要提出？行政院就賴清德總統這兩句話，應該要怎麼樣落實在未來你的執政上面？我只是問這件事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：總統的政見，我們逐步在落實。"],["黃委員珊珊：會落實？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個內容就是我們如何在一般跟特別統籌分配款當中……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你要檢討分配款的模式，但不用修法？"],["卓院長榮泰：做合理的……"],["黃委員珊珊：你要檢討地方稅則通則，不用修法，只是檢討而已？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以在一般跟特別分配稅款當中，做合理的分配跟落實使用。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我今天就是要確認，卓院長要落實但是不修法，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為現在的法令，已經是中央地方合作的一個共同的經驗。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果現在的法律這麼棒，民進黨當年就不用提了4次的修法，這4次修法強調的都是一樣「改變垂直分配，檢討水平分配」。","我現在給院長看一下，你們的版本跟現行法的版本，還有國民黨版，以及民眾黨版的比較，這4次民進黨的提案，其實與現行版……我們民眾黨版本跟民進黨版本是最像的。第一，營業稅全部給地方，這是歷年來民進黨的主張，菸酒稅全部給地方，這也是歷年來民進黨的主張。有關所得稅的分配，包括最後一次柯建銘跟潘孟安的提案，他們提的比民眾黨的提案還要兇啊！從10%變20%。我的意思是說，這幾乎都是大家長期以來有共識的範圍。","第二個部分，台灣民眾黨的版本很清楚，跟民進黨的版本一樣，我們希望能夠納入地方還有專家學者的意見，我們希望成立分配委員會，當時民進黨的版本也希望納入地方以及學者專家的意見，這次的版本其實跟民進黨的版本比較雷同。","我再問一次，院長，你們對以前民進黨版本的這幾個原則──營業稅下放地方、菸酒稅下放地方、成立專家學者以及地方代表加入分配原則的檢討，您個人支持嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，在現行的財劃法底下，我們都願意聆聽各方的意見，有機會可以共同討論……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們講了半天，你們還是不修法，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現行的版本足以讓我們對地方做實質的幫忙……"],["黃委員珊珊：剛剛林德福委員講得很清楚，財政委員會建請在下個會期之前能夠看到行政院的版本，行政院的立場到今天為止，您上任後我們看到的是民進黨黨團代替行政院發言說：民進黨不提版本、民進黨不提行政院版本。到今天為止，依然是這個立場嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我的想法一直很一致啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：民進黨的執政黨不提，民進黨黨團也不提，所以財政委員會審議的不會有行政院版本，目前你的答案是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：現行的版本就是我們的想法。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，其實我蠻失望的，因為提出一個修正版本並沒有干涉或影響到中央的權限，但是你們有態度、有方式把合理的部分……我剛剛講的，沒有人要去製造中央跟地方的對立，我們只是希望它更合理、公開跟透明，也給地方表達意見的機會，現在基本上都是中央集錢、集權，到今天為止25年沒修，我們就是希望你們能把魔戒暫時脫下來，聽聽大家的意見。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，報告委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，您現在說的話，2個月後的下一個會期可能會有很大的衝突，如果可以的話，我們希望你們還是審慎討論行政院要提出的修正版本，不管怎麼樣，好的版本我們也會支持你們……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，委員能夠參考一下8年來刪除這樣的補助款當中對地方實質增加了3,400億，這個努力的過程……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，增加錢不等於現在的財劃法是好的版本，增加的預算是因為各種不同的因素而增加了地方的補助。沒錯，中央的財政不錯，現在就跟你說了……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在的財劃法是一個可以執行的版本，如何讓它執行得更好，我們可以共同來討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們連續6年都有財政賸餘，民眾黨的版本算得很清楚，在不影響中央的運作之下，每年的歲入歲出的盈餘大概就是2,000億，所以我們提出垂直分配釋出的金額大概也是2,000億。第一，不影響中央的運作；第二，落實地方自治的精神；第三，納入地方的意見。定出公開透明的分配方式，這是我們的希望，我們提出來也希望行政院能夠聽進去，這個版本也希望院長能好好參考一下。","回到剛剛看到的，賴清德總統在大選官網所示，符合這個原則下，希望行政院針對怎麼落實必須要提出自己的立場，否則我們在立法院有一個可能性……上次在這邊跟院長討論，最近大家都在上憲法課，會不會民進黨團總召又說，只要是在野黨提出的財劃法版本又是違憲？會不會？"],["卓院長榮泰：看版本裡面的內容是怎麼樣……"],["黃委員珊珊：要看內容？所以我們的版本如果跟當年民進黨黨團的一模一樣就不違憲了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是財政紀律法是有所改變的。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以重點是希望提不提版本不要成為行政院行政怠惰的藉口，不要成為將來又要去覆議、釋憲的藉口，如果行政院現在態度是──我們不提版本，你們提了就是違憲，接下來就是覆議，再來就是釋憲──臺灣將永無寧日啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望能夠多多溝通……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我希望你們有版本的理由是，希望行政院能夠正面面對財劃法必須修正的事實，而且我想也是各縣市政府、各政黨目前的共識，好嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是回到……"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得你審慎思考一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：希望大院朝野黨團有一個討論，能夠實質討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們現在就是希望，我們在跟民進黨團討論啊，就是在等財政部的版本，但財政部到今天為止都不回答我。"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院的立場就是我們現行的版本是可以執行的，但是我們可以討論怎麼樣讓它更合理。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒關係啦！我在想我們不影響你們運作的情況下。","接下來我要問的是覆議的標準在哪裡？剛剛講，如果你們認為我們不合理的或是行政院沒有立場的，你們都認為是違憲嘛！都認為是窒礙難行嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：窒礙難行有一定的……"],["黃委員珊珊：違憲就是窒礙難行，違憲是由行政院說了算？"],["卓院長榮泰：違憲當然窒礙難行，但窒礙難行不一定違憲。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，所以不一定每一個案子都違憲。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是你們認為違憲就違憲？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，這要經過憲法法庭來做訴訟。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我們最近在上憲法課，突然間臺灣大家都變成憲法專家，第一，違憲就一定窒礙難行嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為是。"],["黃委員珊珊：你們認為是？所以只要你們認為違憲的，就會提覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：就無法執行，不能……"],["黃委員珊珊：就無法執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：不能在沒有憲法依據下做任何的依法行政。"],["黃委員珊珊：憲法第七十條現在是柯總召朗朗上口的，主要是規定「立法院對於行政院所提預算案，不得為增加支出之提議」，所以只要有提出預算的增加，就是違憲，對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是行政院的立場還是柯總召的立場？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是憲法的立場。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是憲法的立場，所以預算案，你們認為這個當然沒有問題，但是法律案呢？法律案，我們現在的憲法第七十條是預算案不得為增加支出的提議，大法官會議解釋得很清楚是預算案，現在我要問的是法律案，法律增加支出到底是不是窒礙難行、是不是違憲？這邊有幾個，一個是原住民的禁伐補償，目前是行政院沒有版本，立法院提案通過了；村里長事務費提高到5萬，這個沒有行政院的版本，通過了；去年上一屆立法院新設國際事務處、增加了預算，沒有行政院提案，通過了。請問行政院有沒有覆議？要不要釋憲？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們經過跟憲法、公法學者的討論，就是把預算……"],["黃委員珊珊：這些不用釋憲？這些不用覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：雖然不是預算案，把預算直接進到法律，預算入法，就有可能牽涉到憲法的精神。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以就可能違憲？那剛剛這3個要不要覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為……"],["黃委員珊珊：要不要覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為這可能有侵犯憲法之虞，所以透過專家學者，我們考慮是不是就憲政秩序來做一個解釋。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，院長，我現在就可以告訴你，所有的立法委員都會提出相關所謂的福國利民──不是減少人民的負擔，就是增加政府的支出，每一個計畫、每一個提案都牽涉到預算，所以你要對所有的法律案都用這樣的態度嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是如果把實質的預算金額直接入法，那就是一個可以爭議的地方。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望你的標準可以一致，入法就這樣，所以以後我們不能通過任何法？因為只要你們不同意……"],["卓院長榮泰：預算金額直接入法。"],["黃委員珊珊：喔，好，所以財劃法不會違法？不會違憲？你也不知道？"],["卓院長榮泰：財劃法是中央地方權限的合理分配，財劃法一方面是錢的問題，一方面是事責的問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：好啦，院長，我們今天不討論憲法，我要講的是行政院的標準一致就好，否則以後立法院提出任何福國利民的法案都可能違憲。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會這樣子。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後我想問一個有關融資公司的問題，大家有看到了嘛，現在很多融資公司用各種手續費、代辦費、違約金讓實際利率超過法定利率，但是沒有人管，我只想問接下去，當年張俊雄擔任行政院長的時候其實就訂定過所謂的融資公司法，雖然沒有通過，但是他當時就訂定了金管會是相關主管機關，目前為止臺灣所有的融資公司沒人管，叫做經濟部管，經濟部管就等於沒有人管。然後現在金管會是透過證期局說那些是上市公司，所以對那幾家來做管理，其他都不管，所以我想問一下，院長，管不管？"],["卓院長榮泰：金管會負起監督、管理的責任。"],["黃委員珊珊：你要不要管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我們現在就是按照，我們依法來管理，誠如委員剛才講的，我們先透過這些上市櫃公司的自律規範來管理……"],["黃委員珊珊：金管會最好去制定一個專法來好好的管！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分我們有針對各國的規定在做研議。"],["黃委員珊珊：盡快吧，謝謝院長！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個部分我們一定會嚴加管理，謝謝！"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長！","報告院會，財政組之質詢已詢答完畢。","本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。","下午2時30分繼續開會，進行教育及文化組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（12時9分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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\"院長,你們對以前民進黨版本這幾個原則,營業稅下放地方,菸酒稅下放地方,以及成立所謂的專家學者以及地方代表加入的所謂分配原則的檢討,您個人支持嗎?顧問委員報告,在現行的這個才華法底下,我們都願意聆聽各方的意見,那有機會可以共同的討論。我們講了半天,你還是不修法,是嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 414.212, \"end\": 414.652, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 414.652, \"end\": 415.052, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 415.052, \"end\": 415.172, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 415.172, \"end\": 415.352, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 415.352, \"end\": 415.732, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 415.732, \"end\": 415.913, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 415.913, \"end\": 416.633, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 416.633, \"end\": 418.193, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"營\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"稅\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 418.193, \"end\": 418.393, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 418.393, \"end\": 418.553, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 418.553, \"end\": 418.713, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 418.713, \"end\": 419.414, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"菸\"}, {\"word\": \"酒\", \"start\": 419.414, \"end\": 419.734, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"稅\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 419.734, \"end\": 419.914, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 419.914, \"end\": 420.134, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 420.134, \"end\": 420.294, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 420.294, \"end\": 420.534, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 420.534, \"end\": 420.714, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 420.714, \"end\": 421.394, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 421.394, \"end\": 421.534, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 421.534, \"end\": 421.874, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 421.874, \"end\": 422.214, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 422.214, \"end\": 423.195, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 423.195, \"end\": 423.375, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 423.375, \"end\": 423.535, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 423.535, \"end\": 423.655, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 423.655, \"end\": 423.695, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 423.695, \"end\": 423.835, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 423.835, \"end\": 423.975, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 423.975, \"end\": 424.275, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 424.275, \"end\": 424.495, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 424.495, \"end\": 425.355, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 425.355, \"end\": 425.635, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 425.635, \"end\": 425.836, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 425.836, \"end\": 426.176, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 426.176, \"end\": 426.516, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 426.516, \"end\": 426.696, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 426.696, \"end\": 426.836, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 426.836, \"end\": 427.176, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 427.176, \"end\": 428.476, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 428.476, \"end\": 428.956, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 428.956, \"end\": 429.397, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 429.397, \"end\": 429.537, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 429.537, \"end\": 431.297, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"顧\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 431.297, \"end\": 431.537, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 431.537, \"end\": 431.697, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 431.697, \"end\": 432.117, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 432.117, \"end\": 432.318, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 432.318, \"end\": 432.678, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 432.678, \"end\": 432.958, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"華\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 432.958, \"end\": 433.098, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 433.098, \"end\": 433.218, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 433.218, \"end\": 433.758, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 433.758, \"end\": 433.998, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 433.998, \"end\": 434.298, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 434.298, \"end\": 434.438, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"聆\", \"start\": 434.438, \"end\": 434.898, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 434.898, \"end\": 435.058, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 435.058, \"end\": 435.218, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 435.218, \"end\": 435.298, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 435.298, \"end\": 436.059, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 436.059, \"end\": 436.199, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 436.199, \"end\": 436.599, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 436.599, \"end\": 436.899, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 436.899, \"end\": 437.059, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 437.059, \"end\": 437.279, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 437.279, \"end\": 437.439, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 437.439, \"end\": 437.939, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 437.939, \"end\": 438.299, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 438.299, \"end\": 438.459, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"半\", \"start\": 438.459, \"end\": 438.639, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 438.639, \"end\": 438.9, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 438.9, \"end\": 439.2, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 439.2, \"end\": 439.34, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 439.34, \"end\": 439.48, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 439.48, \"end\": 439.7, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 439.7, \"end\": 440.02, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 440.02, \"end\": 440.04, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 441.232, \"end\": 464.051, \"text\": \"所以剛剛林德福委員講得很清楚財政委員會建請下個會期之前希望看到行政院的版本行政院的立場到今天為止因為您上任之後我們看到的是民進黨團代替了行政院發言說民進黨不提版本民進黨不提行政院版本到今天為止依然是這個立場嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 441.232, \"end\": 441.572, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 441.572, \"end\": 441.913, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 441.913, \"end\": 442.333, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"德\", \"start\": 442.333, \"end\": 442.733, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"福\", \"start\": 442.733, \"end\": 442.954, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 442.954, \"end\": 444.595, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 444.595, \"end\": 444.975, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 444.975, \"end\": 445.516, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 445.516, \"end\": 445.756, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 445.756, \"end\": 446.156, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 446.156, \"end\": 446.276, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 446.276, \"end\": 446.717, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 446.717, \"end\": 447.257, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 447.257, \"end\": 447.778, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 447.778, \"end\": 447.958, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 447.958, \"end\": 448.138, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 448.138, \"end\": 448.538, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 448.538, \"end\": 448.678, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 448.678, \"end\": 448.859, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 448.859, \"end\": 448.999, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 448.999, \"end\": 449.139, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 449.139, \"end\": 449.279, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 449.279, \"end\": 449.399, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 449.399, \"end\": 449.479, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 449.479, \"end\": 449.639, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 449.639, \"end\": 449.859, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 449.859, \"end\": 450.42, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 450.42, \"end\": 450.54, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 450.54, \"end\": 450.66, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 450.66, \"end\": 450.72, \"score\": 0.656}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 450.72, \"end\": 450.82, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 450.82, \"end\": 451.241, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 451.241, \"end\": 451.401, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 451.401, \"end\": 451.561, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 451.561, \"end\": 451.901, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 451.901, \"end\": 452.121, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 452.121, \"end\": 452.742, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 452.742, \"end\": 452.902, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 452.902, \"end\": 453.122, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 453.122, \"end\": 453.322, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 453.322, \"end\": 453.482, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 453.482, \"end\": 453.603, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 453.603, \"end\": 453.823, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 453.823, \"end\": 454.043, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 454.043, \"end\": 454.203, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 454.203, \"end\": 454.363, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 454.363, \"end\": 454.623, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 454.623, \"end\": 456.105, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 456.105, \"end\": 456.365, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"替\", \"start\": 456.365, \"end\": 456.565, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 456.565, \"end\": 456.825, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 456.825, \"end\": 456.985, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 456.985, \"end\": 457.146, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 457.146, \"end\": 457.646, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 457.646, \"end\": 458.867, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 458.867, \"end\": 459.387, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 459.387, \"end\": 459.467, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 459.467, \"end\": 459.588, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 459.588, \"end\": 459.788, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 459.788, \"end\": 460.308, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 460.308, \"end\": 460.989, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 460.989, \"end\": 461.169, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 461.169, \"end\": 461.389, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 461.389, \"end\": 461.569, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 461.569, \"end\": 461.709, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 461.709, \"end\": 461.889, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 461.889, \"end\": 462.09, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 462.09, \"end\": 462.59, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 462.59, \"end\": 462.79, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 462.79, \"end\": 462.95, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 462.95, \"end\": 463.271, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 463.271, \"end\": 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00:01:22,177\n賴清德市長還有民進黨團的總召他們召集的一個立法院的記者會也就是提出修法版本如果該修而沒有修就剛剛講沒有共識所以一直都沒有修過那我想請問一下如果現在制度很好為什麼91年游錫堃院長提96年張俊雄院長提97年賴清德市長跟\n\n4\n00:01:23,305 --> 00:01:52,394\n科建民他將在立委的時候提然後101年潘孟安立委跟科建民又提版本所以我們想問一下落實地方自治充實地方裁員這是不是民主進步黨他們執政的理想沒有錯我們現在還是以均衡台灣的理念來做沒錯所以財政健全落實地方自治是每一個民主國家政府應該要捍衛的權利不是嗎\n\n5\n00:01:53,058 --> 00:02:19,351\n是的第二個這個才化法大家就說它是一個魔戒開玩笑說國民黨執政了國民黨也不想修當民進黨執政之後民進黨想修是在他們在野的時候當拿到執政權一樣所謂的集權又集權所以讓這個魔戒一直拖不下來我今天要跟院長討論就是我也相信這是大家的信仰\n\n6\n00:02:20,393 --> 00:02:39,841\n我們也希望地方政府他很清楚的知道他有多少裁員他去努力他的地方裁員他要得到合理的分配他要看到公開的資訊甚至比較透明的方案我覺得這個是才化法我們的精神所以我要跟院長說一下這個信仰從民進黨執政之前\n\n7\n00:02:42,619 --> 00:03:10,535\n2011年陳其邁現在的市長說不可以讓中央政府再用空頭支票來騙人民當時的民進黨主席蘇貞昌說國家領導人沒有長遠的眼光起碼要有解決現在眼前問題的能力下一個是柯建民總長才化法是立法院黨團永遠的第一優先法案25年了好像都是他第一優先法案但是今年突然變成不是了\n\n8\n00:03:11,243 --> 00:03:12,243\n當然是。我們希望均衡臺灣就是讓各地都能夠得到\n\n9\n00:03:40,302 --> 00:03:41,142\n所以剛剛講的是過去,我們看看最近\n\n10\n00:04:00,854 --> 00:04:20,750\n最近的是去年12月賴清德總統的官方網站裡面講得非常的清楚院長你也有參與他的總統選舉吧這個是賴清德總統的國家希望工程其中的一部分檢討統籌分配款的模式還有檢討地方稅法通則\n\n11\n00:04:22,098 --> 00:04:45,482\n這個是落實增加分配公平性跟充實地方裁員。分配公式要多元客觀的地方特色指標,跟我們講的都一樣。所以我再問您一次,你們行政院要不要提出自己的版本?我們認為現在的版本是經過多年共識執行下來的。所以你覺得現在版本已經是最好的版本,那你們為什麼要提了4次的修法案?\n\n12\n00:04:46,857 --> 00:04:48,278\n我再問院長一次賴清德總統卓院長要不要落實?\n\n13\n00:05:04,552 --> 00:05:21,250\n所院長要不要提出行政院就賴清德總統這兩句話他們應該要怎麼樣落實在未來你的執政上面我只是問這件事情總統的政見我們逐步在落實這個內容就是我們如何在一般跟特別統籌分配款當中合理的\n\n14\n00:05:24,733 --> 00:05:50,035\n只是檢討而已。我們可以在一般跟特別統籌分配稅款當中做合理的分配跟落實使用。我今天就是要確認說卓院長要落實但是不修法是嗎?我們認為現在的法律已經是中央地方合作的一個共同的經驗。如果現在的法律這麼棒民進黨當年就不用提了四次的修法這四次的修法講到都是一樣改變垂直分配檢討水平分配\n\n15\n00:05:50,655 --> 00:05:56,887\n我現在給院長看一下你們的版本跟我們這一次現行法的版本還有國民黨版以及民眾黨版的比較。\n\n16\n00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:24,560\n這四次民進黨的提案其實跟現在的現行版跟我們的版本我們民眾黨的版本跟民進黨的版本是最像的第一營業稅全部給地方這是歷年來民進黨的主張燕酒稅全部給地方這也是歷年來民進黨的主張而且有關所得稅的分配包括到最後一次柯建民跟潘孟雅的提案他們提的比民眾黨的提案還要兇啊\n\n17\n00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:53,771\n他從10%變20%我的意思是說這些都是一個大家幾乎是長期來有共識的範圍第二個部分臺灣民眾黨的版本裡面很清楚的是跟民進黨版本一樣我們希望能夠納入地方的意見還有專家學者意見我們希望成立分配委員會當年的民進黨版本也是希望納入所謂地方的意見以及學者專家這次的版本其實跟民進黨版本比較雷同我再問一次\n\n18\n00:06:54,212 --> 00:07:20,040\n院長,你們對以前民進黨版本這幾個原則,營業稅下放地方,菸酒稅下放地方,以及成立所謂的專家學者以及地方代表加入的所謂分配原則的檢討,您個人支持嗎?顧問委員報告,在現行的這個才華法底下,我們都願意聆聽各方的意見,那有機會可以共同的討論。我們講了半天,你還是不修法,是嗎?\n\n19\n00:07:21,232 --> 00:07:44,051\n所以剛剛林德福委員講得很清楚財政委員會建請下個會期之前希望看到行政院的版本行政院的立場到今天為止因為您上任之後我們看到的是民進黨團代替了行政院發言說民進黨不提版本民進黨不提行政院版本到今天為止依然是這個立場嗎?\n\n20\n00:07:45,630 --> 00:08:14,211\n所以民進黨的執政黨不提,民進黨團也不提。所以財政委員會審議的不會有行政院版本。目前你的答案是這樣。現行的版本就是我們的想法。所以院長其實我蠻失望的啦。因為提出一個修正版本並沒有干涉或影響到中央的權限。但是你們有態度有方式把合理的部分我剛剛講沒有人要去\n\n21\n00:08:15,009 --> 00:08:15,289\n但院長我希望\n\n22\n00:08:36,707 --> 00:08:50,986\n您現在說的話兩個月後的下一個會期可能會有很大的衝突。如果可以的話我希望你們還是審慎的去討論行政院要提出修正的版本。不管怎麼樣好的版本我們也會支持你們。\n\n23\n00:08:51,667 --> 00:09:06,674\n報告委員能夠參考一下8年來在整個三項的補助款當中對地方實質增加3400億,這個努力的過程。增加錢不等於現在的財化法是好的版本,增加的預算是因為各種不同的因素而增加了地方的補助,沒錯。\n\n24\n00:09:07,774 --> 00:09:37,437\n中央的財政不錯,現在就跟你說了,現在的財政不錯,我們每6年,我們連續6年都有財政剩餘,民眾黨的版本算得很清楚,我們在不影響中央的運作之下,每年的稅出稅出的盈餘大概就是2000億,所以我們提出的垂直分配釋出的金額大概也是2000億,第一,不影響中央的運作,第二,落實地方自治的精神,第三,納入地方的意見,訂出公開透明的\n\n25\n00:09:57,028 --> 00:10:24,229\n要怎麼落實必須要提出自己的議場,否則我們在立法院有一個可能性啊,因為上次在這邊跟院長討論最近大家都在上憲法課,會不會民進黨團總召又說了只要是在野黨提出的才化法版本又是違憲,會不會?要看內容,所以我們的版本如果跟當年的民進黨團的一模一樣就不違憲了嗎?\n\n26\n00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:31,466\n但是財政紀律法是有所改變的。是,所以重點是我們希望行政院\n\n27\n00:10:32,489 --> 00:10:59,591\n提不提版本不要成為你們行政怠惰的藉口不要成為將來又要去復議釋憲的藉口如果行政院現在的態度是我不提版本你們提了就是違憲然後接下來我就是復議再過來我就是釋憲臺灣將永無明日啊院長我希望你們有版本的理由是希望行政院能夠正面的面對才化法必須修正的事實\n\n28\n00:11:00,592 --> 00:11:26,992\n而且也是我想也是各縣市政府還有到目前為止各黨的共識。好嗎院長?我覺得你審慎思考一下。我們現在就是希望我們正在跟民進黨團討論啊那就是等財政部的版本啊但財政部到今天為止都不回答我。行政院的立場就是說我們現行的版本是可以執行的\n\n29\n00:11:27,432 --> 00:11:40,513\n但是我們可以討論怎麼樣讓他更合理。我們不影響你們的運作的情況下接下來我要問說復議的標準在哪裡?剛剛講如果你們認為我們不合理的或者是行政院沒有立場的你們都認為是違憲嗎?都認為是至愛難行嗎?\n\n30\n00:11:43,403 --> 00:12:09,397\n自然難行它有一定的在……所以違憲就自然難行,但違憲是由行政院說了算。違憲當然自然難行,但自然難行不一定違憲。對,所以不一定每一個案子都違憲。是的。但是你們認為違憲就違憲。不是,這要經過憲法法庭來做訴訟。好,我們現在最近在上憲法課,我們突然間臺灣大家都在變成憲法專家。第一,違憲不等於……違憲就一定自然難行嗎?\n\n31\n00:12:10,971 --> 00:12:38,170\n我們認為是。你們認為是。所以只要你們認為違憲的就無法執行。就無法執行。不能在沒有憲法的依據下做任何的違法行政。憲法70條現在是柯總召嚷嚷上口的。只要是立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出的倡提議。只要有提出預算的增加就是違憲。對嗎?是的。這是行政院的立場還是柯總召的立場?這是憲法的立場。這是憲法的立場。所以預算案你們認為這個當然沒有問題。但是\n\n32\n00:12:41,052 --> 00:13:09,361\n法律案呢?法律案。我們現在憲法70條是預算案不得為增加支出的提議。大法官會解釋很清楚叫預算案。現在我要問的是法律案。法律增加支出到底是不是治安難行?是不是違憲?這邊有幾個。一個是原住民的進法補償。目前是行政院沒有版本。立法院提案。通過了。然後村里長事務被提高到5萬。這個沒有行政院的版本。通過了。\n\n33\n00:13:09,966 --> 00:13:35,766\n那去年上一屆立法院增加了國際事務處增加了預算沒有行政院提案通過了請問行政院有沒有覆議要不要釋憲我們經過跟憲法公法學者的討論就是把預算這些不用釋憲這些不用覆議雖然不是預算案把預算直接進到法律名預算入法是那就有可能牽涉到這個憲法的精神所以就可能違憲\n\n34\n00:13:36,894 --> 00:14:03,576\n我們認為這可能有侵犯憲法之餘所以透過專家學者我們考慮是不是就憲政的秩序來做一個解釋好所以院長我現在就可以告訴你所有的立法委員都會提出相關的所謂扶國立民不是減少人民的負擔就是增加政府的支出每一個計劃每一個提案都牽涉到預算所以你要對所有的法律案都有這樣的態度嗎\n\n35\n00:14:04,158 --> 00:14:18,106\n但是如果把實質的預算金額直接入法,那就是一個可以爭議的地方。我希望你的標準就是,入法就這樣,所以以後我們不能通過任何法,因為只要你們不同意的。預算金額直接入法。噢,好,所以才化法不會違法,不會違憲。\n\n36\n00:14:19,714 --> 00:14:25,518\n財化法是中央地方全縣的合理分。財化法一方面是錢的問題一般是市者的問題。\n\n37\n00:14:49,864 --> 00:15:19,220\n接下去在之前我們的張俊雄行政院長當年他其實就訂過所謂的融資公司法雖然沒有通過但是他當時就訂了金管會市相關的主管機關目前為止臺灣所有的融資公司沒人管叫做經濟部管經濟部管的等於沒有人管然後現在金管會市用政企局然後說上市公司所以我們對那幾家來做管\n\n38\n00:15:52,785 --> 00:15:57,942\n謝謝黃委員。謝謝卓院長。報告院會財政組織質詢已詢答完畢。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3101\t30310\t謝謝主席,我請卓院長。請卓院長備詢。黃委員好。是,院長好。我想今天是財政部門的質詢,所以大家大概都focus在財化法。我想問一下院長,財化法對你來說,它是該修還是不該修?我的想法是…那個修修的修。\n33486\t54868\t我的想法是說在現行的才化法的底下我們逐年中央對地方補助在增加。在這樣的方式繼續來行政。我只問您的個人看法25年了該修還是不該修?這張照片如果印象沒有錯的話它是2012年2012年的蘇貞昌主席在帶著\n56275\t82177\t賴清德市長還有民進黨團的總召他們召集的一個立法院的記者會也就是提出修法版本如果該修而沒有修就剛剛講沒有共識所以一直都沒有修過那我想請問一下如果現在制度很好為什麼91年游錫堃院長提96年張俊雄院長提97年賴清德市長跟\n83305\t112394\t科建民他將在立委的時候提然後101年潘孟安立委跟科建民又提版本所以我們想問一下落實地方自治充實地方裁員這是不是民主進步黨他們執政的理想沒有錯我們現在還是以均衡台灣的理念來做沒錯所以財政健全落實地方自治是每一個民主國家政府應該要捍衛的權利不是嗎\n113058\t139351\t是的第二個這個才化法大家就說它是一個魔戒開玩笑說國民黨執政了國民黨也不想修當民進黨執政之後民進黨想修是在他們在野的時候當拿到執政權一樣所謂的集權又集權所以讓這個魔戒一直拖不下來我今天要跟院長討論就是我也相信這是大家的信仰\n140393\t159841\t我們也希望地方政府他很清楚的知道他有多少裁員他去努力他的地方裁員他要得到合理的分配他要看到公開的資訊甚至比較透明的方案我覺得這個是才化法我們的精神所以我要跟院長說一下這個信仰從民進黨執政之前\n162619\t190535\t2011年陳其邁現在的市長說不可以讓中央政府再用空頭支票來騙人民當時的民進黨主席蘇貞昌說國家領導人沒有長遠的眼光起碼要有解決現在眼前問題的能力下一個是柯建民總長才化法是立法院黨團永遠的第一優先法案25年了好像都是他第一優先法案但是今年突然變成不是了\n191243\t192243\t當然是。我們希望均衡臺灣就是讓各地都能夠得到\n220302\t221142\t所以剛剛講的是過去,我們看看最近\n240854\t260750\t最近的是去年12月賴清德總統的官方網站裡面講得非常的清楚院長你也有參與他的總統選舉吧這個是賴清德總統的國家希望工程其中的一部分檢討統籌分配款的模式還有檢討地方稅法通則\n262098\t285482\t這個是落實增加分配公平性跟充實地方裁員。分配公式要多元客觀的地方特色指標,跟我們講的都一樣。所以我再問您一次,你們行政院要不要提出自己的版本?我們認為現在的版本是經過多年共識執行下來的。所以你覺得現在版本已經是最好的版本,那你們為什麼要提了4次的修法案?\n286857\t288278\t我再問院長一次賴清德總統卓院長要不要落實?\n304552\t321250\t所院長要不要提出行政院就賴清德總統這兩句話他們應該要怎麼樣落實在未來你的執政上面我只是問這件事情總統的政見我們逐步在落實這個內容就是我們如何在一般跟特別統籌分配款當中合理的\n324733\t350035\t只是檢討而已。我們可以在一般跟特別統籌分配稅款當中做合理的分配跟落實使用。我今天就是要確認說卓院長要落實但是不修法是嗎?我們認為現在的法律已經是中央地方合作的一個共同的經驗。如果現在的法律這麼棒民進黨當年就不用提了四次的修法這四次的修法講到都是一樣改變垂直分配檢討水平分配\n350655\t356887\t我現在給院長看一下你們的版本跟我們這一次現行法的版本還有國民黨版以及民眾黨版的比較。\n358320\t384560\t這四次民進黨的提案其實跟現在的現行版跟我們的版本我們民眾黨的版本跟民進黨的版本是最像的第一營業稅全部給地方這是歷年來民進黨的主張燕酒稅全部給地方這也是歷年來民進黨的主張而且有關所得稅的分配包括到最後一次柯建民跟潘孟雅的提案他們提的比民眾黨的提案還要兇啊\n385720\t413771\t他從10%變20%我的意思是說這些都是一個大家幾乎是長期來有共識的範圍第二個部分臺灣民眾黨的版本裡面很清楚的是跟民進黨版本一樣我們希望能夠納入地方的意見還有專家學者意見我們希望成立分配委員會當年的民進黨版本也是希望納入所謂地方的意見以及學者專家這次的版本其實跟民進黨版本比較雷同我再問一次\n414212\t440040\t院長,你們對以前民進黨版本這幾個原則,營業稅下放地方,菸酒稅下放地方,以及成立所謂的專家學者以及地方代表加入的所謂分配原則的檢討,您個人支持嗎?顧問委員報告,在現行的這個才華法底下,我們都願意聆聽各方的意見,那有機會可以共同的討論。我們講了半天,你還是不修法,是嗎?\n441232\t464051\t所以剛剛林德福委員講得很清楚財政委員會建請下個會期之前希望看到行政院的版本行政院的立場到今天為止因為您上任之後我們看到的是民進黨團代替了行政院發言說民進黨不提版本民進黨不提行政院版本到今天為止依然是這個立場嗎?\n465630\t494211\t所以民進黨的執政黨不提,民進黨團也不提。所以財政委員會審議的不會有行政院版本。目前你的答案是這樣。現行的版本就是我們的想法。所以院長其實我蠻失望的啦。因為提出一個修正版本並沒有干涉或影響到中央的權限。但是你們有態度有方式把合理的部分我剛剛講沒有人要去\n495009\t495289\t但院長我希望\n516707\t530986\t您現在說的話兩個月後的下一個會期可能會有很大的衝突。如果可以的話我希望你們還是審慎的去討論行政院要提出修正的版本。不管怎麼樣好的版本我們也會支持你們。\n531667\t546674\t報告委員能夠參考一下8年來在整個三項的補助款當中對地方實質增加3400億,這個努力的過程。 增加錢不等於現在的財化法是好的版本,增加的預算是因為各種不同的因素而增加了地方的補助,沒錯。\n547774\t577437\t中央的財政不錯,現在就跟你說了,現在的財政不錯,我們每6年,我們連續6年都有財政剩餘,民眾黨的版本算得很清楚,我們在不影響中央的運作之下,每年的稅出稅出的盈餘大概就是2000億,所以我們提出的垂直分配釋出的金額大概也是2000億,第一,不影響中央的運作,第二,落實地方自治的精神,第三,納入地方的意見,訂出公開透明的\n577978\t596698\t﹗\n597028\t624229\t要怎麼落實必須要提出自己的議場,否則我們在立法院有一個可能性啊,因為上次在這邊跟院長討論最近大家都在上憲法課,會不會民進黨團總召又說了只要是在野黨提出的才化法版本又是違憲,會不會?要看內容,所以我們的版本如果跟當年的民進黨團的一模一樣就不違憲了嗎?\n625680\t631466\t但是財政紀律法是有所改變的。是,所以重點是我們希望行政院\n632489\t659591\t提不提版本不要成為你們行政怠惰的藉口不要成為將來又要去復議釋憲的藉口如果行政院現在的態度是我不提版本你們提了就是違憲然後接下來我就是復議再過來我就是釋憲臺灣將永無明日啊院長我希望你們有版本的理由是希望行政院能夠正面的面對才化法必須修正的事實\n660592\t686992\t而且也是我想也是各縣市政府還有到目前為止各黨的共識。好嗎院長?我覺得你審慎思考一下。我們現在就是希望我們正在跟民進黨團討論啊那就是等財政部的版本啊但財政部到今天為止都不回答我。行政院的立場就是說我們現行的版本是可以執行的\n687432\t700513\t但是我們可以討論怎麼樣讓他更合理。我們不影響你們的運作的情況下接下來我要問說復議的標準在哪裡?剛剛講如果你們認為我們不合理的或者是行政院沒有立場的你們都認為是違憲嗎?都認為是至愛難行嗎?\n703403\t729397\t自然難行它有一定的在……所以違憲就自然難行,但違憲是由行政院說了算。違憲當然自然難行,但自然難行不一定違憲。對,所以不一定每一個案子都違憲。是的。但是你們認為違憲就違憲。不是,這要經過憲法法庭來做訴訟。好,我們現在最近在上憲法課,我們突然間臺灣大家都在變成憲法專家。第一,違憲不等於……違憲就一定自然難行嗎?\n730971\t758170\t我們認為是。你們認為是。所以只要你們認為違憲的就無法執行。就無法執行。不能在沒有憲法的依據下做任何的違法行政。憲法70條現在是柯總召嚷嚷上口的。只要是立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出的倡提議。只要有提出預算的增加就是違憲。對嗎?是的。這是行政院的立場還是柯總召的立場?這是憲法的立場。這是憲法的立場。所以預算案你們認為這個當然沒有問題。但是\n761052\t789361\t法律案呢?法律案。我們現在憲法70條是預算案不得為增加支出的提議。大法官會解釋很清楚叫預算案。現在我要問的是法律案。法律增加支出到底是不是治安難行?是不是違憲?這邊有幾個。一個是原住民的進法補償。目前是行政院沒有版本。立法院提案。通過了。然後村里長事務被提高到5萬。這個沒有行政院的版本。通過了。\n789966\t815766\t那去年上一屆立法院增加了國際事務處增加了預算沒有行政院提案通過了請問行政院有沒有覆議要不要釋憲我們經過跟憲法公法學者的討論就是把預算這些不用釋憲這些不用覆議雖然不是預算案把預算直接進到法律名預算入法是那就有可能牽涉到這個憲法的精神所以就可能違憲\n816894\t843576\t我們認為這可能有侵犯憲法之餘所以透過專家學者我們考慮是不是就憲政的秩序來做一個解釋好所以院長我現在就可以告訴你所有的立法委員都會提出相關的所謂扶國立民不是減少人民的負擔就是增加政府的支出每一個計劃每一個提案都牽涉到預算所以你要對所有的法律案都有這樣的態度嗎\n844158\t858106\t但是如果把實質的預算金額直接入法,那就是一個可以爭議的地方。我希望你的標準就是,入法就這樣,所以以後我們不能通過任何法,因為只要你們不同意的。預算金額直接入法。噢,好,所以才化法不會違法,不會違憲。\n859714\t865518\t財化法是中央地方全縣的合理分。財化法一方面是錢的問題一般是市者的問題。\n889864\t919220\t接下去在之前我們的張俊雄行政院長當年他其實就訂過所謂的融資公司法雖然沒有通過但是他當時就訂了金管會市相關的主管機關目前為止臺灣所有的融資公司沒人管叫做經濟部管經濟部管的等於沒有人管然後現在金管會市用政企局然後說上市公司所以我們對那幾家來做管\n952785\t957942\t謝謝黃委員。謝謝卓院長。報告院會財政組織質詢已詢答完畢。\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我請卓院長。請卓院長備詢。黃委員好。是,院長好。我想今天是財政部門的質詢,所以大家大概都focus在財化法。我想問一下院長,財化法對你來說,它是該修還是不該修?我的想法是…那個修修的修。\n我的想法是說在現行的才化法的底下我們逐年中央對地方補助在增加。在這樣的方式繼續來行政。我只問您的個人看法25年了該修還是不該修?這張照片如果印象沒有錯的話它是2012年2012年的蘇貞昌主席在帶著\n賴清德市長還有民進黨團的總召他們召集的一個立法院的記者會也就是提出修法版本如果該修而沒有修就剛剛講沒有共識所以一直都沒有修過那我想請問一下如果現在制度很好為什麼91年游錫堃院長提96年張俊雄院長提97年賴清德市長跟\n科建民他將在立委的時候提然後101年潘孟安立委跟科建民又提版本所以我們想問一下落實地方自治充實地方裁員這是不是民主進步黨他們執政的理想沒有錯我們現在還是以均衡台灣的理念來做沒錯所以財政健全落實地方自治是每一個民主國家政府應該要捍衛的權利不是嗎\n是的第二個這個才化法大家就說它是一個魔戒開玩笑說國民黨執政了國民黨也不想修當民進黨執政之後民進黨想修是在他們在野的時候當拿到執政權一樣所謂的集權又集權所以讓這個魔戒一直拖不下來我今天要跟院長討論就是我也相信這是大家的信仰\n我們也希望地方政府他很清楚的知道他有多少裁員他去努力他的地方裁員他要得到合理的分配他要看到公開的資訊甚至比較透明的方案我覺得這個是才化法我們的精神所以我要跟院長說一下這個信仰從民進黨執政之前\n2011年陳其邁現在的市長說不可以讓中央政府再用空頭支票來騙人民當時的民進黨主席蘇貞昌說國家領導人沒有長遠的眼光起碼要有解決現在眼前問題的能力下一個是柯建民總長才化法是立法院黨團永遠的第一優先法案25年了好像都是他第一優先法案但是今年突然變成不是了\n當然是。我們希望均衡臺灣就是讓各地都能夠得到\n所以剛剛講的是過去,我們看看最近\n最近的是去年12月賴清德總統的官方網站裡面講得非常的清楚院長你也有參與他的總統選舉吧這個是賴清德總統的國家希望工程其中的一部分檢討統籌分配款的模式還有檢討地方稅法通則\n這個是落實增加分配公平性跟充實地方裁員。分配公式要多元客觀的地方特色指標,跟我們講的都一樣。所以我再問您一次,你們行政院要不要提出自己的版本?我們認為現在的版本是經過多年共識執行下來的。所以你覺得現在版本已經是最好的版本,那你們為什麼要提了4次的修法案?\n我再問院長一次賴清德總統卓院長要不要落實?\n所院長要不要提出行政院就賴清德總統這兩句話他們應該要怎麼樣落實在未來你的執政上面我只是問這件事情總統的政見我們逐步在落實這個內容就是我們如何在一般跟特別統籌分配款當中合理的\n只是檢討而已。我們可以在一般跟特別統籌分配稅款當中做合理的分配跟落實使用。我今天就是要確認說卓院長要落實但是不修法是嗎?我們認為現在的法律已經是中央地方合作的一個共同的經驗。如果現在的法律這麼棒民進黨當年就不用提了四次的修法這四次的修法講到都是一樣改變垂直分配檢討水平分配\n我現在給院長看一下你們的版本跟我們這一次現行法的版本還有國民黨版以及民眾黨版的比較。\n這四次民進黨的提案其實跟現在的現行版跟我們的版本我們民眾黨的版本跟民進黨的版本是最像的第一營業稅全部給地方這是歷年來民進黨的主張燕酒稅全部給地方這也是歷年來民進黨的主張而且有關所得稅的分配包括到最後一次柯建民跟潘孟雅的提案他們提的比民眾黨的提案還要兇啊\n他從10%變20%我的意思是說這些都是一個大家幾乎是長期來有共識的範圍第二個部分臺灣民眾黨的版本裡面很清楚的是跟民進黨版本一樣我們希望能夠納入地方的意見還有專家學者意見我們希望成立分配委員會當年的民進黨版本也是希望納入所謂地方的意見以及學者專家這次的版本其實跟民進黨版本比較雷同我再問一次\n院長,你們對以前民進黨版本這幾個原則,營業稅下放地方,菸酒稅下放地方,以及成立所謂的專家學者以及地方代表加入的所謂分配原則的檢討,您個人支持嗎?顧問委員報告,在現行的這個才華法底下,我們都願意聆聽各方的意見,那有機會可以共同的討論。我們講了半天,你還是不修法,是嗎?\n所以剛剛林德福委員講得很清楚財政委員會建請下個會期之前希望看到行政院的版本行政院的立場到今天為止因為您上任之後我們看到的是民進黨團代替了行政院發言說民進黨不提版本民進黨不提行政院版本到今天為止依然是這個立場嗎?\n所以民進黨的執政黨不提,民進黨團也不提。所以財政委員會審議的不會有行政院版本。目前你的答案是這樣。現行的版本就是我們的想法。所以院長其實我蠻失望的啦。因為提出一個修正版本並沒有干涉或影響到中央的權限。但是你們有態度有方式把合理的部分我剛剛講沒有人要去\n但院長我希望\n您現在說的話兩個月後的下一個會期可能會有很大的衝突。如果可以的話我希望你們還是審慎的去討論行政院要提出修正的版本。不管怎麼樣好的版本我們也會支持你們。\n報告委員能夠參考一下8年來在整個三項的補助款當中對地方實質增加3400億,這個努力的過程。 增加錢不等於現在的財化法是好的版本,增加的預算是因為各種不同的因素而增加了地方的補助,沒錯。\n中央的財政不錯,現在就跟你說了,現在的財政不錯,我們每6年,我們連續6年都有財政剩餘,民眾黨的版本算得很清楚,我們在不影響中央的運作之下,每年的稅出稅出的盈餘大概就是2000億,所以我們提出的垂直分配釋出的金額大概也是2000億,第一,不影響中央的運作,第二,落實地方自治的精神,第三,納入地方的意見,訂出公開透明的\n﹗\n要怎麼落實必須要提出自己的議場,否則我們在立法院有一個可能性啊,因為上次在這邊跟院長討論最近大家都在上憲法課,會不會民進黨團總召又說了只要是在野黨提出的才化法版本又是違憲,會不會?要看內容,所以我們的版本如果跟當年的民進黨團的一模一樣就不違憲了嗎?\n但是財政紀律法是有所改變的。是,所以重點是我們希望行政院\n提不提版本不要成為你們行政怠惰的藉口不要成為將來又要去復議釋憲的藉口如果行政院現在的態度是我不提版本你們提了就是違憲然後接下來我就是復議再過來我就是釋憲臺灣將永無明日啊院長我希望你們有版本的理由是希望行政院能夠正面的面對才化法必須修正的事實\n而且也是我想也是各縣市政府還有到目前為止各黨的共識。好嗎院長?我覺得你審慎思考一下。我們現在就是希望我們正在跟民進黨團討論啊那就是等財政部的版本啊但財政部到今天為止都不回答我。行政院的立場就是說我們現行的版本是可以執行的\n但是我們可以討論怎麼樣讓他更合理。我們不影響你們的運作的情況下接下來我要問說復議的標準在哪裡?剛剛講如果你們認為我們不合理的或者是行政院沒有立場的你們都認為是違憲嗎?都認為是至愛難行嗎?\n自然難行它有一定的在……所以違憲就自然難行,但違憲是由行政院說了算。違憲當然自然難行,但自然難行不一定違憲。對,所以不一定每一個案子都違憲。是的。但是你們認為違憲就違憲。不是,這要經過憲法法庭來做訴訟。好,我們現在最近在上憲法課,我們突然間臺灣大家都在變成憲法專家。第一,違憲不等於……違憲就一定自然難行嗎?\n我們認為是。你們認為是。所以只要你們認為違憲的就無法執行。就無法執行。不能在沒有憲法的依據下做任何的違法行政。憲法70條現在是柯總召嚷嚷上口的。只要是立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出的倡提議。只要有提出預算的增加就是違憲。對嗎?是的。這是行政院的立場還是柯總召的立場?這是憲法的立場。這是憲法的立場。所以預算案你們認為這個當然沒有問題。但是\n法律案呢?法律案。我們現在憲法70條是預算案不得為增加支出的提議。大法官會解釋很清楚叫預算案。現在我要問的是法律案。法律增加支出到底是不是治安難行?是不是違憲?這邊有幾個。一個是原住民的進法補償。目前是行政院沒有版本。立法院提案。通過了。然後村里長事務被提高到5萬。這個沒有行政院的版本。通過了。\n那去年上一屆立法院增加了國際事務處增加了預算沒有行政院提案通過了請問行政院有沒有覆議要不要釋憲我們經過跟憲法公法學者的討論就是把預算這些不用釋憲這些不用覆議雖然不是預算案把預算直接進到法律名預算入法是那就有可能牽涉到這個憲法的精神所以就可能違憲\n我們認為這可能有侵犯憲法之餘所以透過專家學者我們考慮是不是就憲政的秩序來做一個解釋好所以院長我現在就可以告訴你所有的立法委員都會提出相關的所謂扶國立民不是減少人民的負擔就是增加政府的支出每一個計劃每一個提案都牽涉到預算所以你要對所有的法律案都有這樣的態度嗎\n但是如果把實質的預算金額直接入法,那就是一個可以爭議的地方。我希望你的標準就是,入法就這樣,所以以後我們不能通過任何法,因為只要你們不同意的。預算金額直接入法。噢,好,所以才化法不會違法,不會違憲。\n財化法是中央地方全縣的合理分。財化法一方面是錢的問題一般是市者的問題。\n接下去在之前我們的張俊雄行政院長當年他其實就訂過所謂的融資公司法雖然沒有通過但是他當時就訂了金管會市相關的主管機關目前為止臺灣所有的融資公司沒人管叫做經濟部管經濟部管的等於沒有人管然後現在金管會市用政企局然後說上市公司所以我們對那幾家來做管\n謝謝黃委員。謝謝卓院長。報告院會財政組織質詢已詢答完畢。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.101 --> 00:30.310\n謝謝主席,我請卓院長。請卓院長備詢。黃委員好。是,院長好。我想今天是財政部門的質詢,所以大家大概都focus在財化法。我想問一下院長,財化法對你來說,它是該修還是不該修?我的想法是…那個修修的修。\n\n00:33.486 --> 00:54.868\n我的想法是說在現行的才化法的底下我們逐年中央對地方補助在增加。在這樣的方式繼續來行政。我只問您的個人看法25年了該修還是不該修?這張照片如果印象沒有錯的話它是2012年2012年的蘇貞昌主席在帶著\n\n00:56.275 --> 01:22.177\n賴清德市長還有民進黨團的總召他們召集的一個立法院的記者會也就是提出修法版本如果該修而沒有修就剛剛講沒有共識所以一直都沒有修過那我想請問一下如果現在制度很好為什麼91年游錫堃院長提96年張俊雄院長提97年賴清德市長跟\n\n01:23.305 --> 01:52.394\n科建民他將在立委的時候提然後101年潘孟安立委跟科建民又提版本所以我們想問一下落實地方自治充實地方裁員這是不是民主進步黨他們執政的理想沒有錯我們現在還是以均衡台灣的理念來做沒錯所以財政健全落實地方自治是每一個民主國家政府應該要捍衛的權利不是嗎\n\n01:53.058 --> 02:19.351\n是的第二個這個才化法大家就說它是一個魔戒開玩笑說國民黨執政了國民黨也不想修當民進黨執政之後民進黨想修是在他們在野的時候當拿到執政權一樣所謂的集權又集權所以讓這個魔戒一直拖不下來我今天要跟院長討論就是我也相信這是大家的信仰\n\n02:20.393 --> 02:39.841\n我們也希望地方政府他很清楚的知道他有多少裁員他去努力他的地方裁員他要得到合理的分配他要看到公開的資訊甚至比較透明的方案我覺得這個是才化法我們的精神所以我要跟院長說一下這個信仰從民進黨執政之前\n\n02:42.619 --> 03:10.535\n2011年陳其邁現在的市長說不可以讓中央政府再用空頭支票來騙人民當時的民進黨主席蘇貞昌說國家領導人沒有長遠的眼光起碼要有解決現在眼前問題的能力下一個是柯建民總長才化法是立法院黨團永遠的第一優先法案25年了好像都是他第一優先法案但是今年突然變成不是了\n\n03:11.243 --> 03:12.243\n當然是。我們希望均衡臺灣就是讓各地都能夠得到\n\n03:40.302 --> 03:41.142\n所以剛剛講的是過去,我們看看最近\n\n04:00.854 --> 04:20.750\n最近的是去年12月賴清德總統的官方網站裡面講得非常的清楚院長你也有參與他的總統選舉吧這個是賴清德總統的國家希望工程其中的一部分檢討統籌分配款的模式還有檢討地方稅法通則\n\n04:22.098 --> 04:45.482\n這個是落實增加分配公平性跟充實地方裁員。分配公式要多元客觀的地方特色指標,跟我們講的都一樣。所以我再問您一次,你們行政院要不要提出自己的版本?我們認為現在的版本是經過多年共識執行下來的。所以你覺得現在版本已經是最好的版本,那你們為什麼要提了4次的修法案?\n\n04:46.857 --> 04:48.278\n我再問院長一次賴清德總統卓院長要不要落實?\n\n05:04.552 --> 05:21.250\n所院長要不要提出行政院就賴清德總統這兩句話他們應該要怎麼樣落實在未來你的執政上面我只是問這件事情總統的政見我們逐步在落實這個內容就是我們如何在一般跟特別統籌分配款當中合理的\n\n05:24.733 --> 05:50.035\n只是檢討而已。我們可以在一般跟特別統籌分配稅款當中做合理的分配跟落實使用。我今天就是要確認說卓院長要落實但是不修法是嗎?我們認為現在的法律已經是中央地方合作的一個共同的經驗。如果現在的法律這麼棒民進黨當年就不用提了四次的修法這四次的修法講到都是一樣改變垂直分配檢討水平分配\n\n05:50.655 --> 05:56.887\n我現在給院長看一下你們的版本跟我們這一次現行法的版本還有國民黨版以及民眾黨版的比較。\n\n05:58.320 --> 06:24.560\n這四次民進黨的提案其實跟現在的現行版跟我們的版本我們民眾黨的版本跟民進黨的版本是最像的第一營業稅全部給地方這是歷年來民進黨的主張燕酒稅全部給地方這也是歷年來民進黨的主張而且有關所得稅的分配包括到最後一次柯建民跟潘孟雅的提案他們提的比民眾黨的提案還要兇啊\n\n06:25.720 --> 06:53.771\n他從10%變20%我的意思是說這些都是一個大家幾乎是長期來有共識的範圍第二個部分臺灣民眾黨的版本裡面很清楚的是跟民進黨版本一樣我們希望能夠納入地方的意見還有專家學者意見我們希望成立分配委員會當年的民進黨版本也是希望納入所謂地方的意見以及學者專家這次的版本其實跟民進黨版本比較雷同我再問一次\n\n06:54.212 --> 07:20.040\n院長,你們對以前民進黨版本這幾個原則,營業稅下放地方,菸酒稅下放地方,以及成立所謂的專家學者以及地方代表加入的所謂分配原則的檢討,您個人支持嗎?顧問委員報告,在現行的這個才華法底下,我們都願意聆聽各方的意見,那有機會可以共同的討論。我們講了半天,你還是不修法,是嗎?\n\n07:21.232 --> 07:44.051\n所以剛剛林德福委員講得很清楚財政委員會建請下個會期之前希望看到行政院的版本行政院的立場到今天為止因為您上任之後我們看到的是民進黨團代替了行政院發言說民進黨不提版本民進黨不提行政院版本到今天為止依然是這個立場嗎?\n\n07:45.630 --> 08:14.211\n所以民進黨的執政黨不提,民進黨團也不提。所以財政委員會審議的不會有行政院版本。目前你的答案是這樣。現行的版本就是我們的想法。所以院長其實我蠻失望的啦。因為提出一個修正版本並沒有干涉或影響到中央的權限。但是你們有態度有方式把合理的部分我剛剛講沒有人要去\n\n08:15.009 --> 08:15.289\n但院長我希望\n\n08:36.707 --> 08:50.986\n您現在說的話兩個月後的下一個會期可能會有很大的衝突。如果可以的話我希望你們還是審慎的去討論行政院要提出修正的版本。不管怎麼樣好的版本我們也會支持你們。\n\n08:51.667 --> 09:06.674\n報告委員能夠參考一下8年來在整個三項的補助款當中對地方實質增加3400億,這個努力的過程。增加錢不等於現在的財化法是好的版本,增加的預算是因為各種不同的因素而增加了地方的補助,沒錯。\n\n09:07.774 --> 09:37.437\n中央的財政不錯,現在就跟你說了,現在的財政不錯,我們每6年,我們連續6年都有財政剩餘,民眾黨的版本算得很清楚,我們在不影響中央的運作之下,每年的稅出稅出的盈餘大概就是2000億,所以我們提出的垂直分配釋出的金額大概也是2000億,第一,不影響中央的運作,第二,落實地方自治的精神,第三,納入地方的意見,訂出公開透明的\n\n09:57.028 --> 10:24.229\n要怎麼落實必須要提出自己的議場,否則我們在立法院有一個可能性啊,因為上次在這邊跟院長討論最近大家都在上憲法課,會不會民進黨團總召又說了只要是在野黨提出的才化法版本又是違憲,會不會?要看內容,所以我們的版本如果跟當年的民進黨團的一模一樣就不違憲了嗎?\n\n10:25.680 --> 10:31.466\n但是財政紀律法是有所改變的。是,所以重點是我們希望行政院\n\n10:32.489 --> 10:59.591\n提不提版本不要成為你們行政怠惰的藉口不要成為將來又要去復議釋憲的藉口如果行政院現在的態度是我不提版本你們提了就是違憲然後接下來我就是復議再過來我就是釋憲臺灣將永無明日啊院長我希望你們有版本的理由是希望行政院能夠正面的面對才化法必須修正的事實\n\n11:00.592 --> 11:26.992\n而且也是我想也是各縣市政府還有到目前為止各黨的共識。好嗎院長?我覺得你審慎思考一下。我們現在就是希望我們正在跟民進黨團討論啊那就是等財政部的版本啊但財政部到今天為止都不回答我。行政院的立場就是說我們現行的版本是可以執行的\n\n11:27.432 --> 11:40.513\n但是我們可以討論怎麼樣讓他更合理。我們不影響你們的運作的情況下接下來我要問說復議的標準在哪裡?剛剛講如果你們認為我們不合理的或者是行政院沒有立場的你們都認為是違憲嗎?都認為是至愛難行嗎?\n\n11:43.403 --> 12:09.397\n自然難行它有一定的在……所以違憲就自然難行,但違憲是由行政院說了算。違憲當然自然難行,但自然難行不一定違憲。對,所以不一定每一個案子都違憲。是的。但是你們認為違憲就違憲。不是,這要經過憲法法庭來做訴訟。好,我們現在最近在上憲法課,我們突然間臺灣大家都在變成憲法專家。第一,違憲不等於……違憲就一定自然難行嗎?\n\n12:10.971 --> 12:38.170\n我們認為是。你們認為是。所以只要你們認為違憲的就無法執行。就無法執行。不能在沒有憲法的依據下做任何的違法行政。憲法70條現在是柯總召嚷嚷上口的。只要是立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出的倡提議。只要有提出預算的增加就是違憲。對嗎?是的。這是行政院的立場還是柯總召的立場?這是憲法的立場。這是憲法的立場。所以預算案你們認為這個當然沒有問題。但是\n\n12:41.052 --> 13:09.361\n法律案呢?法律案。我們現在憲法70條是預算案不得為增加支出的提議。大法官會解釋很清楚叫預算案。現在我要問的是法律案。法律增加支出到底是不是治安難行?是不是違憲?這邊有幾個。一個是原住民的進法補償。目前是行政院沒有版本。立法院提案。通過了。然後村里長事務被提高到5萬。這個沒有行政院的版本。通過了。\n\n13:09.966 --> 13:35.766\n那去年上一屆立法院增加了國際事務處增加了預算沒有行政院提案通過了請問行政院有沒有覆議要不要釋憲我們經過跟憲法公法學者的討論就是把預算這些不用釋憲這些不用覆議雖然不是預算案把預算直接進到法律名預算入法是那就有可能牽涉到這個憲法的精神所以就可能違憲\n\n13:36.894 --> 14:03.576\n我們認為這可能有侵犯憲法之餘所以透過專家學者我們考慮是不是就憲政的秩序來做一個解釋好所以院長我現在就可以告訴你所有的立法委員都會提出相關的所謂扶國立民不是減少人民的負擔就是增加政府的支出每一個計劃每一個提案都牽涉到預算所以你要對所有的法律案都有這樣的態度嗎\n\n14:04.158 --> 14:18.106\n但是如果把實質的預算金額直接入法,那就是一個可以爭議的地方。我希望你的標準就是,入法就這樣,所以以後我們不能通過任何法,因為只要你們不同意的。預算金額直接入法。噢,好,所以才化法不會違法,不會違憲。\n\n14:19.714 --> 14:25.518\n財化法是中央地方全縣的合理分。財化法一方面是錢的問題一般是市者的問題。\n\n14:49.864 --> 15:19.220\n接下去在之前我們的張俊雄行政院長當年他其實就訂過所謂的融資公司法雖然沒有通過但是他當時就訂了金管會市相關的主管機關目前為止臺灣所有的融資公司沒人管叫做經濟部管經濟部管的等於沒有人管然後現在金管會市用政企局然後說上市公司所以我們對那幾家來做管\n\n15:52.785 --> 15:57.942\n謝謝黃委員。謝謝卓院長。報告院會財政組織質詢已詢答完畢。\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.101,"end":30.31,"text":"謝謝主席,我請卓院長。請卓院長備詢。黃委員好。是,院長好。我想今天是財政部門的質詢,所以大家大概都focus在財化法。我想問一下院長,財化法對你來說,它是該修還是不該修?我的想法是…那個修修的修。"},{"start":33.486,"end":54.868,"text":"我的想法是說在現行的才化法的底下我們逐年中央對地方補助在增加。在這樣的方式繼續來行政。我只問您的個人看法25年了該修還是不該修?這張照片如果印象沒有錯的話它是2012年2012年的蘇貞昌主席在帶著"},{"start":56.275,"end":82.177,"text":"賴清德市長還有民進黨團的總召他們召集的一個立法院的記者會也就是提出修法版本如果該修而沒有修就剛剛講沒有共識所以一直都沒有修過那我想請問一下如果現在制度很好為什麼91年游錫堃院長提96年張俊雄院長提97年賴清德市長跟"},{"start":83.305,"end":112.394,"text":"科建民他將在立委的時候提然後101年潘孟安立委跟科建民又提版本所以我們想問一下落實地方自治充實地方裁員這是不是民主進步黨他們執政的理想沒有錯我們現在還是以均衡台灣的理念來做沒錯所以財政健全落實地方自治是每一個民主國家政府應該要捍衛的權利不是嗎"},{"start":113.058,"end":139.351,"text":"是的第二個這個才化法大家就說它是一個魔戒開玩笑說國民黨執政了國民黨也不想修當民進黨執政之後民進黨想修是在他們在野的時候當拿到執政權一樣所謂的集權又集權所以讓這個魔戒一直拖不下來我今天要跟院長討論就是我也相信這是大家的信仰"},{"start":140.393,"end":159.841,"text":"我們也希望地方政府他很清楚的知道他有多少裁員他去努力他的地方裁員他要得到合理的分配他要看到公開的資訊甚至比較透明的方案我覺得這個是才化法我們的精神所以我要跟院長說一下這個信仰從民進黨執政之前"},{"start":162.619,"end":190.535,"text":"2011年陳其邁現在的市長說不可以讓中央政府再用空頭支票來騙人民當時的民進黨主席蘇貞昌說國家領導人沒有長遠的眼光起碼要有解決現在眼前問題的能力下一個是柯建民總長才化法是立法院黨團永遠的第一優先法案25年了好像都是他第一優先法案但是今年突然變成不是了"},{"start":191.243,"end":192.243,"text":"當然是。我們希望均衡臺灣就是讓各地都能夠得到"},{"start":220.302,"end":221.142,"text":"所以剛剛講的是過去,我們看看最近"},{"start":240.854,"end":260.75,"text":"最近的是去年12月賴清德總統的官方網站裡面講得非常的清楚院長你也有參與他的總統選舉吧這個是賴清德總統的國家希望工程其中的一部分檢討統籌分配款的模式還有檢討地方稅法通則"},{"start":262.098,"end":285.482,"text":"這個是落實增加分配公平性跟充實地方裁員。分配公式要多元客觀的地方特色指標,跟我們講的都一樣。所以我再問您一次,你們行政院要不要提出自己的版本?我們認為現在的版本是經過多年共識執行下來的。所以你覺得現在版本已經是最好的版本,那你們為什麼要提了4次的修法案?"},{"start":286.857,"end":288.278,"text":"我再問院長一次賴清德總統卓院長要不要落實?"},{"start":304.552,"end":321.25,"text":"所院長要不要提出行政院就賴清德總統這兩句話他們應該要怎麼樣落實在未來你的執政上面我只是問這件事情總統的政見我們逐步在落實這個內容就是我們如何在一般跟特別統籌分配款當中合理的"},{"start":324.733,"end":350.035,"text":"只是檢討而已。我們可以在一般跟特別統籌分配稅款當中做合理的分配跟落實使用。我今天就是要確認說卓院長要落實但是不修法是嗎?我們認為現在的法律已經是中央地方合作的一個共同的經驗。如果現在的法律這麼棒民進黨當年就不用提了四次的修法這四次的修法講到都是一樣改變垂直分配檢討水平分配"},{"start":350.655,"end":356.887,"text":"我現在給院長看一下你們的版本跟我們這一次現行法的版本還有國民黨版以及民眾黨版的比較。"},{"start":358.32,"end":384.56,"text":"這四次民進黨的提案其實跟現在的現行版跟我們的版本我們民眾黨的版本跟民進黨的版本是最像的第一營業稅全部給地方這是歷年來民進黨的主張燕酒稅全部給地方這也是歷年來民進黨的主張而且有關所得稅的分配包括到最後一次柯建民跟潘孟雅的提案他們提的比民眾黨的提案還要兇啊"},{"start":385.72,"end":413.771,"text":"他從10%變20%我的意思是說這些都是一個大家幾乎是長期來有共識的範圍第二個部分臺灣民眾黨的版本裡面很清楚的是跟民進黨版本一樣我們希望能夠納入地方的意見還有專家學者意見我們希望成立分配委員會當年的民進黨版本也是希望納入所謂地方的意見以及學者專家這次的版本其實跟民進黨版本比較雷同我再問一次"},{"start":414.212,"end":440.04,"text":"院長,你們對以前民進黨版本這幾個原則,營業稅下放地方,菸酒稅下放地方,以及成立所謂的專家學者以及地方代表加入的所謂分配原則的檢討,您個人支持嗎?顧問委員報告,在現行的這個才華法底下,我們都願意聆聽各方的意見,那有機會可以共同的討論。我們講了半天,你還是不修法,是嗎?"},{"start":441.232,"end":464.051,"text":"所以剛剛林德福委員講得很清楚財政委員會建請下個會期之前希望看到行政院的版本行政院的立場到今天為止因為您上任之後我們看到的是民進黨團代替了行政院發言說民進黨不提版本民進黨不提行政院版本到今天為止依然是這個立場嗎?"},{"start":465.63,"end":494.211,"text":"所以民進黨的執政黨不提,民進黨團也不提。所以財政委員會審議的不會有行政院版本。目前你的答案是這樣。現行的版本就是我們的想法。所以院長其實我蠻失望的啦。因為提出一個修正版本並沒有干涉或影響到中央的權限。但是你們有態度有方式把合理的部分我剛剛講沒有人要去"},{"start":495.009,"end":495.289,"text":"但院長我希望"},{"start":516.707,"end":530.986,"text":"您現在說的話兩個月後的下一個會期可能會有很大的衝突。如果可以的話我希望你們還是審慎的去討論行政院要提出修正的版本。不管怎麼樣好的版本我們也會支持你們。"},{"start":531.667,"end":546.674,"text":"報告委員能夠參考一下8年來在整個三項的補助款當中對地方實質增加3400億,這個努力的過程。 增加錢不等於現在的財化法是好的版本,增加的預算是因為各種不同的因素而增加了地方的補助,沒錯。"},{"start":547.774,"end":577.437,"text":"中央的財政不錯,現在就跟你說了,現在的財政不錯,我們每6年,我們連續6年都有財政剩餘,民眾黨的版本算得很清楚,我們在不影響中央的運作之下,每年的稅出稅出的盈餘大概就是2000億,所以我們提出的垂直分配釋出的金額大概也是2000億,第一,不影響中央的運作,第二,落實地方自治的精神,第三,納入地方的意見,訂出公開透明的"},{"start":577.978,"end":596.698,"text":"﹗"},{"start":597.028,"end":624.229,"text":"要怎麼落實必須要提出自己的議場,否則我們在立法院有一個可能性啊,因為上次在這邊跟院長討論最近大家都在上憲法課,會不會民進黨團總召又說了只要是在野黨提出的才化法版本又是違憲,會不會?要看內容,所以我們的版本如果跟當年的民進黨團的一模一樣就不違憲了嗎?"},{"start":625.68,"end":631.466,"text":"但是財政紀律法是有所改變的。是,所以重點是我們希望行政院"},{"start":632.489,"end":659.591,"text":"提不提版本不要成為你們行政怠惰的藉口不要成為將來又要去復議釋憲的藉口如果行政院現在的態度是我不提版本你們提了就是違憲然後接下來我就是復議再過來我就是釋憲臺灣將永無明日啊院長我希望你們有版本的理由是希望行政院能夠正面的面對才化法必須修正的事實"},{"start":660.592,"end":686.992,"text":"而且也是我想也是各縣市政府還有到目前為止各黨的共識。好嗎院長?我覺得你審慎思考一下。我們現在就是希望我們正在跟民進黨團討論啊那就是等財政部的版本啊但財政部到今天為止都不回答我。行政院的立場就是說我們現行的版本是可以執行的"},{"start":687.432,"end":700.513,"text":"但是我們可以討論怎麼樣讓他更合理。我們不影響你們的運作的情況下接下來我要問說復議的標準在哪裡?剛剛講如果你們認為我們不合理的或者是行政院沒有立場的你們都認為是違憲嗎?都認為是至愛難行嗎?"},{"start":703.403,"end":729.397,"text":"自然難行它有一定的在……所以違憲就自然難行,但違憲是由行政院說了算。違憲當然自然難行,但自然難行不一定違憲。對,所以不一定每一個案子都違憲。是的。但是你們認為違憲就違憲。不是,這要經過憲法法庭來做訴訟。好,我們現在最近在上憲法課,我們突然間臺灣大家都在變成憲法專家。第一,違憲不等於……違憲就一定自然難行嗎?"},{"start":730.971,"end":758.17,"text":"我們認為是。你們認為是。所以只要你們認為違憲的就無法執行。就無法執行。不能在沒有憲法的依據下做任何的違法行政。憲法70條現在是柯總召嚷嚷上口的。只要是立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出的倡提議。只要有提出預算的增加就是違憲。對嗎?是的。這是行政院的立場還是柯總召的立場?這是憲法的立場。這是憲法的立場。所以預算案你們認為這個當然沒有問題。但是"},{"start":761.052,"end":789.361,"text":"法律案呢?法律案。我們現在憲法70條是預算案不得為增加支出的提議。大法官會解釋很清楚叫預算案。現在我要問的是法律案。法律增加支出到底是不是治安難行?是不是違憲?這邊有幾個。一個是原住民的進法補償。目前是行政院沒有版本。立法院提案。通過了。然後村里長事務被提高到5萬。這個沒有行政院的版本。通過了。"},{"start":789.966,"end":815.766,"text":"那去年上一屆立法院增加了國際事務處增加了預算沒有行政院提案通過了請問行政院有沒有覆議要不要釋憲我們經過跟憲法公法學者的討論就是把預算這些不用釋憲這些不用覆議雖然不是預算案把預算直接進到法律名預算入法是那就有可能牽涉到這個憲法的精神所以就可能違憲"},{"start":816.894,"end":843.576,"text":"我們認為這可能有侵犯憲法之餘所以透過專家學者我們考慮是不是就憲政的秩序來做一個解釋好所以院長我現在就可以告訴你所有的立法委員都會提出相關的所謂扶國立民不是減少人民的負擔就是增加政府的支出每一個計劃每一個提案都牽涉到預算所以你要對所有的法律案都有這樣的態度嗎"},{"start":844.158,"end":858.106,"text":"但是如果把實質的預算金額直接入法,那就是一個可以爭議的地方。我希望你的標準就是,入法就這樣,所以以後我們不能通過任何法,因為只要你們不同意的。預算金額直接入法。噢,好,所以才化法不會違法,不會違憲。"},{"start":859.714,"end":865.518,"text":"財化法是中央地方全縣的合理分。財化法一方面是錢的問題一般是市者的問題。"},{"start":889.864,"end":919.22,"text":"接下去在之前我們的張俊雄行政院長當年他其實就訂過所謂的融資公司法雖然沒有通過但是他當時就訂了金管會市相關的主管機關目前為止臺灣所有的融資公司沒人管叫做經濟部管經濟部管的等於沒有人管然後現在金管會市用政企局然後說上市公司所以我們對那幾家來做管"},{"start":952.785,"end":957.942,"text":"謝謝黃委員。謝謝卓院長。報告院會財政組織質詢已詢答完畢。"}]}}}}